Latest / We Can Do Better / Can Publicly-Owned Grocery Stores Solve our Affordability Crisis?

Transcript

Can Publicly-Owned Grocery Stores Solve our Affordability Crisis? · We Can Do Better

• Fran Quigley: Hello and welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. My name is Freyan Quigley. I am a law professor. I go with my students and colleagues every week to eviction court. And there we represent some of the millions of people in our country who are facing the loss of their homes. And many of those people are also going hungry, despite living in the richest nation in the world. We can do better. So that is why we are excited this week to welcome to the show. Omar Okampo, a researcher with the Institute for Policy Studies, and he's going to talk about publicly owned grocery stores and whether publicly owned grocery stores might be an answer to our affordability crisis. For the website inequality.org, Omar has written an article called How City Owned Grocery Stores Can Tackle Food Insecurity. We're going to link to that article in our show notes. And what we're going to talk about today is what Omar's research revealed. in preparing for that article. And he's continued to do research since that article has been published. So Omar, welcome to the podcast. Omar Ocampo: thank you for having me and big shout out to all our listeners and viewers. Fran Quigley: Yeah, yeah. This is a this is gonna be an important topic. I think anybody who cares about and has been intersecting with and working with people who are struggling as a result of inequality, people are struggling with income challenges are also struggling with food challenges. So we wanted to start off with The question of whether it's the idea of a publicly owned grocery store is that just completely un American, is that completely foreign to the US people? And you in the article you write this quote Contrary to the public outcry from critics, city owned grocery stores are not a novel or radical idea in the United States. So can you describe a little bit about what your research found about publicly owned grocery stores and their legacy in our country? Omar Ocampo: Yeah, you know, I also have to admit that when I began researching this, it was surprising even to me, the the idea that there were a lot of publicly owned grocery stores and a lot of experiments. But I would like to talk about like two examples specifically. and those are the grocery stores that exist in different rural towns in the state of Kansas and the military commissary system, which is the grocery stores where The people who are able to shop there are the military and their families. So the most emblematic example is the St. Paul supermarket in Kansas. And St. Paul's a small town is about two hours south of Kansas City. It's home to about like 600 people. And they have a city-owned grocery store, which means that the property, the building, the business, the inventory, all of it is owned by the city of St. Paul. And It was remarkable remarkable to stumble upon this. And so but the real catalyst behind why they decided to do a you know, a city owned grocery store is that the local local school board decided to close down the town's high school. And this was a big shock to the community, because it signaled that the town was like on the, you know, verge on the brink of collapse. And so the community came together, and they you know, try to figure out like how can we save the town. And part of the strategy was to revitalize St. Paul by opening up a grocery store. And it was interesting because that town actually went 20 years without a grocery store. a lot of people had to drive 34 miles to I want to say it was a Walmart. I d don't quote me on that one, but they but it was 34 miles to a grocery store to get full service supermarket. And so they elected a new mayor, they did they They commissioned the study. They said it was economically feasible. The residents voted to approve, you know, financial support from the city for this endeavor. And all of this led to a supermarket that's fully owned, managed, and operated by the local government. And the high school was reopened, which was great. So this is like an absolute suc success story. Kansas also has like other, like, you know, they have like public priv private partnerships. So it could be like where the building And the properties owned by the city government, but then the operations and like management is all done by someone in the private sector, whatever that's like a small family. this is a case for like a grocery store in a place called Little River, Kansas. Again, small rural community, 500 people. you know, and one of the benefits of having you know, the city owned the building and the property is that they take care of all the capital investment, which means like You know, it eases the financial burden of the operator or or the manager. So Fran Quigley: Sure. Omar Ocampo: so the city renovates the building, it purchases new equipment, it makes any like upgrades and repairs. so yeah, so so there's this so there's precedent. But I do wanna add a caveat, like, you know, that there's also city owned grocery stores that have failed. you know, so th there's the one famous example is like Baldwin, Florida. You know, the city bought the grocery store because, you know, the they were gonna lose it. and the the mayor didn't want to continue spending didn't can didn't wanna continue subsidizing it, so they ended up closing it down. But but you know, different contexts, different things, but you know, it it can show that it can work. Fran Quigley: Right. And there's a difference between failure and unwillingness to continue a public investment in something, right? So that's a market failure Omar Ocampo: That that that Fran Quigley: is something we're gonna talk about here with privately owned grocery stores, but a a publicly owned grocery store, if it's not intended to make a profit, that's closing that down can be a choice, right? Omar Ocampo: Absolutely. And we see this with the military commissary system. So the commissary is just another way of saying grocery store. in the in the military. So yeah, so the the so military they operate a network of grocery stores is run by the Department of Defense and it's a non for it's not for profit model. So stores that are in like in a remote location, you know, they may not have a lot of sales and they might not generate a lot of revenue, but it's remains open because it's seen as a public good, as a public option that should be available to people who and the the in the in the community that are there, the the military community that's there. So yeah, so like so like you said, it's all about, you know, the the political will of wanting to you know, keep that that grocery store running. Fran Quigley: And what have been the specifically maybe about the the the military stores, military-owned stores? I mean, what have kind of the reviews have been? I I've certainly heard anecdotally folks who are military families and they work very hard to continue to can maintain their access to those stores because the stores are provide goods at at high quality and low cost. But I didn't know how that's just anecdotal. It it's what did your research show about people's satisfaction with those stores? Omar Ocampo: So what what's interesting about the military grocery stores is that it consistently ranks amongst the top grocery stores in consumer reports. So it's very popular. People prefer the shop there's because they actually have a average savings rate of about twenty five point two percent. That was the case in the fiscal year of twenty twenty-five. and it's the popularity, it's we can see it because every single year. The total sales and total revenue is actually increasing year over year over the past five years. And one thing that the military commissary system also guarantees is a premium shopping experience because the military commissary is just like a regular grocery store. All the brands that you can find at a right like you know, at a Whole Foods or Kroger or Publix, Walmart, you'll find it at the at the Military Commissary. The only difference is that. the products are not sold at a markup. They are sold at cost. So the if there's a loaf of bread, let's just say they they the store bought it for three dollars, they're gonna sell it for three dollars three dollars, right? so yeah, so it's it's extremely popular. So there's evidence to back that up to back up that antidote. Fran Quigley: Yeah. And and in in circling back to the examples from rural Kansas, and and you mentioned that there were no grocery stores in in the area. And and it's so interesting, right? Because some of the things that people in the rural community share with some very urban settings is that there's no large for-profit supermarket chains that are going to set up and operate a store there that's going to serve the needs of the community. So I I've heard the term food desert to explain that, but you actually use a couple of other terms in your article about food swamp and grocery redlining. Again, I think those are really compelling terms and and help people understand what what's going on here. So could you explain what what what you mean by those? Omar Ocampo: Yeah, absolutely. so all of these terms are like related and they kind of like feed into each other a little bit. So supermarket redlining is basically a term that describes a process where a mainstream or corporate retailer, again, Kroger Publics, they decide to close up shop and relocate their grocery store. to a neighborhood where they feel that there's more purchasing power, which means that that they'll make more of a profit. So in other words, they don't want to keep any existing stores in low income areas. And they don't and not only that, they don't even want to invest in opening up new supermarkets because they they they they just say that the profitability is not there, the margins are too low. So there's a large scale my migration of grocery stores away from, you know, Areas where there's you know not enough per for according to them, not enough purchasing power into like wealthier ones. So this in part contributes to the phenomenon that's kind of known as food deserts, which is for an urban community that means that you live one mile away from the closest full service grocery store. And for a rural community, it means that you live more at least 10 miles away from a supermarket. So access to nutritious food. to fresh food, to fresh produce. It's extremely limited. And as a result, many of these residents rely on fast food chains, on convenience stores, on dollar stores for their nutritional needs. And yeah, and this is you know pr very prevalent throughout the country, unfortunately. So, I mean estimates vary. So some I've read some studies that say, you know, 20 million Americans live in food deserts, I've read other ones where it says it's over fifty million. So it's a problem that needs to be addressed and and it's not being addressed by the private market because they just the profit motive just means that they're just not going to invest and open up stores. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. Just as you say, if it if the goal, I mean that is the goal for the private sector is to make maximum profits, then that's not going to be an investment they're going to make. And and as as we know, they've pulled out of these places, right? There they're Omar Ocampo: Mm-hmm. Fran Quigley: oftentimes, certainly in neighborhoods in my community of Indianapolis, there are former lot of former supermarkets, right? That they Omar Ocampo: Mm. Fran Quigley: have decided the profit margins weren't weren't sufficient. And so, you know, that's when you talk about the the the public jumping in. The the term that I I read in your report and article that I had not heard before is food swamp. So by understanding food swamp is referring to, as you said, when people are they can get some kind of food but they're getting it at the at the gas station or they're getting it at Dollar General or or what have you, but it's not gonna be fresh produce and it's not gonna be healthy and well priced, that kind of thing. Omar Ocampo: Absolutely. And so there might be like also fast foods fast food chains. So there could be like a McDonald's, you know, a Burger King, but there's no fresh produce nearby. But this also has, you know, a public health consequence. So and I think that having a public health perspective is also very important to include in this conversation because the way that we're currently talking about city owned grocery stores is you know, about yeah, I mean accessibility and affordability, yes, but there's also a public health aspect. And I think that gets lost when we when we talk about it because people who live in food swamps or areas that are considered food swamps, they're more likely to develop type two diabetes, they have higher hospital rates of being hospitalized. adults over fifty are at a higher risk of stroke. So the lack of access to a full service grocery store completely undermines our commitment to public health and you know we I I don't think it's optimal to have people to, you know, always buy or the main their main diet is basically, you know, you know, chips and high ultra ultra processed foods. So yeah, so therefore like, you know, it you know, our argument is that the creation and expansion of city owned grocery stores promotes and protects Public health. Fran Quigley: And by promoting and protecting public health, that saves the community dollars, not to mention human lives and and more positive human existence, but it also just in pure terms of dollars and cents, less money spent on emergency rooms, less money spent on people missing work, that kind of thing. Omar Ocampo: Absolutely. And so so like so when we talk about how we were speaking about before about, you know, you know, the these should be not not for profit enterprises when it becomes city owned, you know, the return on investments exactly what you s you just said that you're gonna s have savings on the you know, in the healthcare sector, but also another return on in on investment is just improved health outcomes for the community. So yeah. Fran Quigley: Which is we know from representing folks with housing crisis that that people are are missing their rent payments because they or someone in their family is sick and they've had to miss work and they fall behind and their paycheck isn't coming through. And then that leads to evictions, which leads to homelessness, which leads to crises and kids having to move schools and and all kinds of, you know, a a a a torrent of really negative implications. And so healthy food could be a really important part of that. so you I don't know, I can't I when did you first start researching this? I you know this are the first article I read from you about this I believe was a little over a year ago. If you and when did you first start researching publicly owned grocery stores? Omar Ocampo: a around the same time, so basically the the idea that like the impetus was basically you know, the the candidacy of Zoro Mamdani and his proposal of having a city owned grocery stores, at least five in the you know, in the each one in each borough in New York City. so like to me that was something that I was like, you know what, I this is something that I would wanna research. And and see like, you know, see if there's any precedent. if there's if it if it works or not. and I was able to to do so. And I'm still carrying on some of the research. We're actually planning on publishing something in like two weeks about Atlanta, which I mean, we can get into it, but it t it's technically not a min a city owned grocery store, even though it was originally marketed as a city owned grocery store because it's the the city of Atlanta invested in in creating one, but then they hired a private operator and the the the their goal is to ev eventually be free of subsidies within three to five years. so it could be like something that's self-sustaining. But you know it that also just shows that there's an investment. I mean that the public should have an investment in creating grocery stores. So yeah, so the the work the work you know still continuing to work and you know we'll be I'm also part of coalitions that are looking for You know, b basically, you know, how to end food insecurity through the the establishment of publicly owned grocery stores. Fran Quigley: Yeah. that's a g I'm looking forward to your report on the on the Atlanta experiment. It does sound like there's many different ways to skin a cat, as they say, where you can Omar Ocampo: Yeah. Fran Quigley: have it fully owned and operated. So it sounds like the Kansas model, but also Atlanta where the the public can give the the impetus and the subsidy to to get things rolling. Is that ultimately will the Atlanta grocery stores will they be nonprofit? are they gonna be f for profit entities? Omar Ocampo: So they're they're for profit. So so the like the ec economic development agency in Atlanta, they just pretty much gave all the startup capital. and they had like a bidding process because they wanted you know, a private operator, someone that has experience, the knowledge, the know how. And the the the the organ the c the company that won the contract was it's called Savvy Provisions. So they kind of have experience in like a gourmet markets, which is basically means that they sell like high end rare and artisanal products in their in their grocery shop and they wanted to you know they they you know they won the contract and the city of Atlanta tried to entice you know the large corporate retailers to come you know to open up a store in downtown Atlanta and they basically said no and So Savvy Provisions was, you know, willing to take it. So I actually interviewed the CEO of Savvy Provisions. His name is Paul Nair. And he was saying that, you know, normally for any any grocery store, even if it's a small one, it takes three to five years for it to turn a profit. So his goal is to have three to five years of subsidies until they're it's until he's able to turn a profit and then they're gonna wean off the subsidies. So the They already opened up the store in downtown Atlanta. It's actually wildly successful. it's surpassing you know, expectations. So they have a lot of sales, a lot revenue. And they're actually now in the process of opening up a second store, which is I don't remember the name of the neighborhood, but it's that it's actually planning to be open at the end of this month. So it just shows Fran Quigley: great. Omar Ocampo: that, you know. You have success in in one area. Now that leads to expansion. I also think the fact that they're using the same operator is you know, it still it still has like the city of Atlanta is investing, so they're giving up all the startup capital, reconstruction, renovation costs, they're covering it. And you know, it just goes and and the idea the fact that, you know, they're using the same operator is good because then you're able to, you know, let's say you have a surplus in your in one store, you can have a transfer. to the other store or you can have someone who wants to take an extra shift, they can go to the other one, things like that. And they can also share data and analytics with each other. So yeah. So so Atlanta is showing that, you know, with with city investment you can actually have successful grocery stores. So like so it's a public part private partnership that I mean there's a long-winded way to say that it it is gonna be for profit, which is not what New York is trying to do, but Atlanta is trying to be for profit, but it has significant investment from the city in the first five years. Fran Quigley: Yeah, well, usually we we do this at the end, but since folks are gonna want to know more about the Atlanta experiment or not experiment, the project, because it's happening, and your report is coming out in the next couple of weeks, when how can folks find that? Omar Ocampo: Yeah, LGB on IPS-DC.org. so it's it's gonna be a small report, it's above a three pager. We just talk about how basically like what was the impetus behind it, you know, who the salary provisions are, like what was their timeline, but what was what were the funding mechanisms involved, and you know, the and basically like you know, how how it has been successful, what lessons can be learned from the Atlanta ex example. when I spoke with the CEO of of Scientic Provisions, Mr. Nair, he also told me that that Zor Mamdani's team actually called him and wanted to, you know, say, Hey, you know, can you Fran Quigley: Interesting. Omar Ocampo: let us know like, you know, what you did and, you know, how we can replicate. So yeah. Yeah. Fran Quigley: Right. Well we'll definitely include a a link to the to the IPS dash DC, the Institute for Policy Studies website so folks can check out your report when it comes out because I think this podcast will come out shortly before your report does. It sounds like we'll we'll beat the report by just a bit, but we'll make sure folks know where to find it. And I I for one looking forward to reading about it. So as you said, what was really important, I think, about your research and your writing about it continue is that definitely when Zora Mandani won in New York City and talked about city owned grocery stores, there was a lot of confusion or even resistance that this was such a a crazy, unusual, un American idea. And you and you should point out that's certainly not that at all. But what's the status of things in New York City now? what words like ten months into into his administration. Omar Ocampo: Yeah, so so as of right now, there has not been any stores that have been opened. but they did publish a proposal and in the proposal they announced like, you know, how they're gonna make you know, how they're gonna bring down groceries by thirty percent. And then it also announced the location of the f where the first two stores will be. So one will be in the Bronx and the other one would will be in Manhattan. What's interesting about Mayor Mamdani is that he's extremely pragmatic. he is hiring a private operator to manage the day the day-to-day operations. And again, one of the the the logics behind this and one of the benefits is behind this is that not only do they have the expertise and know-how, but they can also negotiate favorable prices from wholesalers and manufacturers because you know they're a pre existing operator and they they they're able to take advantage of the economies of scale. so yeah so this so the so the ability to scale up it grants them you know the ability to buy food in bulk and and then at which which could be negoti with the prices can be negotiated down and then you can pass those savings on to the consumer. Yeah, you know, it it's interesting. I mean, if you want like you know, like you know, my personal opinion, I I do think that five stores is a little is too little, I think, to really leverage economies of scale. You really Fran Quigley: Interesting. Omar Ocampo: need to do like twenty. yeah. so or one so yeah, so you can do twenty because then you can leverage because that's one thing that the one of the reasons why the military commissary systems also successful, because there's over 200 stores. And so they're a and they and they're able to leverage all their buying power together in order to get the lowest price possible, pass it on to the to the to the to the customer. This is what Walmart and Kroger does as well. so if you were able to do like 20, you'd definitely take advantage of that. But alternatively, you can also create like a purchasing co-op. So you can get independent grocery stores that are in New York who are not you know, to that they're not, you know, obviously they're not located in food deserts, but then they can also be part of we're a a a cooperative where they pull their resources together and then be able to all benefit from the purchasing in bulk. So like so this could be something that could also help even independent grocers. But you I I don't I don't I've at the moment I do not believe that they have that in mind, but Yeah, but the right right now their their goal is just five stores and but you know, we recommend like twenty stores. Yeah. Fran Quigley: Go big, Mayor Mandani. Go go big. that's good. That somebody needs to be pushing because there's a lot of people pushing back the other direction, right? So there needs to Omar Ocampo: Mm-hmm. Fran Quigley: be folks pushing him to be even more ambitious. so the fact that we have largely, with these exceptions, handed over this absolute core human need of providing food or providing food to people to for-profit entities, and there's As you said, it's as many as 20 million people living in a food desert. And and we have clients like that, and they just simply cannot get access. They don't have transportation or means to get to a place where they can get healthy, fresh food. so this is you know a market failure, right? And and there's also lots of evidence of monopolistic practices by these large grocery chains. You've mentioned it a few times, but we only can mention you know, five or six, right? There's there's there are So small mom and pop grocery stores have been crushed in this process. And of course, that's a challenge for the smaller grocery stores that could be municipally owned as well. Like you say, you know, economies of scale are really important. But there is a law, right? A law that you write about called the Robinson Patman Act. and that is a law that you write could really make a positive impact on the the market failure that we're seeing and the monopolistic practices. So you know, what would that law look like if it were well enforced by the federal government? Omar Ocampo: Yeah. So for our listeners who may not be familiar with the Robertson Pat Patman Act, it's a piece of legislation that was passed in the nineteen thirties that basically prohibits price discrimination. So for example, a specific buyer cannot demand or force a seller to give them preferential prices for certain goods or services. and a seller has to treat every buyer in the market equally. So let's say I sell beef. Walmart is a custom it's a customer, they buy in high volume, I offer them a discount. But then let's just say that a competitor of Walmart also wants to buy the same amount, but yet I don't offer them that discount. you know, then that is considering considered price discrimination. so that used to be enforced from the nineteen thirties up until the nineteen eighties. that's you know the the they begin to like loosen it big Partly because the Reagan administration felt that this was like arresting the potential of like US businesses because sellers should have the right to have get discounts from certain buyers or whatever. But so interestingly, the former FTC chair, Lena Khan, she tried to resurrect the Robertson Pantman Act. and she actually filed two lawsuits, one against Pepsi and the other against Southern Glazers, which is like a The the latter is like the largest distributor of like alcoholic beverages, like wine. Fran Quigley: Okay. Omar Ocampo: Yeah. And in in the lawsuit, both of these cases alleged that both companies were favoring large corporate retailers and denied independent buyers the same offers. And interestingly, the Pepsi case was immediately thrown out once the Trump administration came into office. And but interestingly, the Southern Glazers, they they achieved like a settlement. But in their s in their settlement, they didn't admit fault. which obviously this is this settlement happened during Trump's administration as well. apparently the part of the settlement is that they'll agree to have like an independent monitor to look at like look at them once every six months to make sure that they're not discrimin not giving like prefational prices to certain retailers and and denying them to others. So so I think like enforcement in would I guess in the short and medium term would look like that where we'd have to you know create the precedent and say we want to ensure that everybody has a fair shake when they're buying from wholesalers and manufacturers and that they're buying them that whatever discounts are available to large corporations are also available to independent grocers. so and I would argue that also that the enforcement of this law in the long term and especially in rural communities can make private independent grocery stores viable again. Because one of the reasons so we mentioned like, you know, supermarket redlining where like there's the some of the grocers are like migrating out. but the the lack of enforcement of of of this law actually you know created the incentive for like c consolidation, Fran Quigley: Sure. Sure. Omar Ocampo: right? And so therefore, then they will open up a grocery store like, you know, ten miles away from let's say like a rural community. And the and then the that independent grocery store in that rural community can't compete with the cr with the Walmart that's ten miles away because a lot of people would probably prefer to drive 10 miles to to to you know to get the the the the cheaper prices. So so so enforcement will also make you know the will well allow independent grocers to be viable. Exactly. Fran Quigley: Sure. Just level the playing field, right? And I'm struck by you saying that it was well enforced or was enforced from the nineteen thirties to the nineteen eighties or so. And that's when we did have a lot of independent grocery stores and we did have mom and pop stores and we did have folks who could walk in much of the country, certainly in urban areas, to a to a well stocked grocery store, but but now we can't and it's not a coincidence. And we're big Omar Ocampo: Absolutely p Fran Quigley: yeah, go ahead. Omar Ocampo: sorry. absolutely because food deserts weren't r weren't really a thing before. Before the nineteen eighties they didn't really exist. So Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Market failure. Right. So and we're big Lena Omar Ocampo: Yeah. Fran Quigley: Khan fans and wishing that that we could have an administration where where she again can do the good work that she was doing. So enforcing the the Robinson dash Pattman P A T A N Act if people want to to check it out. And that's something that again a future presidential administration can as Lena Khan under the Biden administration showed can make a big difference by just not writing a new law, not adopting a new law, just enforcing the one on the books that that for a generation or two allowed independent groceries to to thrive and in this case would allow city owned groceries and mean city supported groceries like the ones in Atlanta to compete on a on a level playing field. So Omar Ocampo, thank you so much for for joining us. How do folks follow your work? I think we've mentioned the the website for Institute for Policy Studies is Ips DC.org. We'll put that in the show notes. But what's the best way to follow you? And to follow you on social media or how how should folks learn more about your work? Omar Ocampo: Yeah, so everything that I publish is is put on Ips dash Dc dot org. There's also inequality dot org, which is a a publication from that's part of the Institute for Policy Studies. And I do have a Twitter, which is Ocampo underscore IPS. And yep, those are the the the three websites that you can find me. Fran Quigley: That's perfect. That's perfect. Well, Omar, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you especially for your important work. And I'd love to have you back at some point and you can talk about even more success stories. And Omar Ocampo: Yeah. Fran Quigley: we can talk about the 20 stores that Mayor Mondani should be opening at at your recommendation and hopefully the success in Atlanta and Kansas and and many, many other places where tens of millions of people are are without access to healthy, accessible food. So thank you f no go ahead. Omar Ocampo: Yeah. I I I do want to give I wan do want to give a one shot one shout out. I do want to give a shout out to Community Food Advocates, which is a Fran Quigley: Okay. Omar Ocampo: organization in New York. They're creating a coalition. I mean they've already created a coalition that I'm a part of. of you know, these the coalition involves university professors, you know, people who who work in food co ops, and and also industry people in the food industry who, you know, who believe in publicly owned grocery stores and They they're the ones who pitched the idea of the of the the twenty twenty stores, so didn't just come for me. So I d definitely wanted to give them a definitely wanna give them a shout out for for that as well. Fran Quigley: Okay, cool. Well, as I look at it, I think it's foodadvocates.org is their website. we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. And this is wonderful. Of course, everything that's going to really change things is going to be done in coalition, but thank you for your very important contribution. And folks should check out all the work that you've done because this is not your only area of of research Omar Ocampo: Mm-hmm. Fran Quigley: and all the things that your colleagues are doing. As you mentioned, the the website for the publications is often inequality dot org. You all are tackling directly the the core issue, arguably, of our time and certainly of the core issue for the folks we represent in eviction corps, and that's the inequality that we're seeing in in record levels in the United States. So thank you for for what you're doing and and thank you for joining the show. Omar Ocampo: No, thank you for having me and I look forward to coming back. And thank you for your work Fran Quigley: Absolutely. Omar Ocampo: as well. Fran Quigley: Absolutely. Well th thank you very much. And and thank you to all of our listeners. And remember, as you've heard here today from Omar Ocampo of the Institute for Policy Studies, we absolutely can do better. We'll see you next time.