Latest / ABA Business Leaders / Scruffy, Shoulds and Mighty Mouse: Executive Functioning and Self-Awareness for ABA Leaders

Transcript

Scruffy, Shoulds and Mighty Mouse: Executive Functioning and Self-Awareness for ABA Leaders · ABA Business Leaders

• speaker-0: Hello everyone. Welcome to AVA Business Leaders Podcast brought to you by 3P Squared. I'm Carol. speaker-2: Steven. speaker-0: And today we have with us Nicole. Welcome, Nicole. So Nicole is speaker-1: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So if speaker-0: a BCBA. she is an ADHD coach. She has well, I'll say how I met Nicole is she taught an act course. offering CEUs and it was like a several well what six eight week course it was a really nice involved course I learned a lot and helped me to connect a lot of dots about ACT. and so that's how I met Nicole and then I reached out and was like, hey come on the podcast. And she's like, Yeah. So here we are. And we started talking before we hit record or before we officially started about you know capacity. And well that's and that's another thing. That's a lot of your ADHD coaching in j in general is is helping those like with executive functioning issues. I don't know what the technical term for that is. speaker-1: They would probably say they have issues, yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just a big basket of stuff. whether you have, you know, a diagnosis or not, I think executive functioning skills, we we can have a variety of like executive functioning skills. Like it just it doesn't mean that just because you have a diagnosis is the only time where you're going to have difficulty with various executive functioning skills. And I think as a leader in an ABA company, an owner, and being an entrepreneur and juggling all of the balls and wearing all of the hats, I think that we can often find ourselves in these situations where we're like, why can't I just be consistent? speaker-1: I mean, capacity is different for everyone, right? Like you said, different phases of life, different times of the month. Like it's it's so varied. And as someone who also has ADHD as well, it's it's one of those things where paying attention to the environment or the this the situation of life that I'm in is so important. And like we were saying right before this, like meeting, I'll meet you, I'll meet you guys where you're at, I'll meet myself where I'm at. And so it's like where am I starting at? Am I expecting myself to have all of these be like super organized and have all the motivation and all the drive to like get all the things done right away? Or the way that I approach like my own life and then also my work is okay, like can we just be curious about how our brain is working right now? Like for example, putting together talks. I love the ideation of it and creating like all the things like, this would be so cool, this would be so cool. And then the idea of creating the slides. Figuring out the flow. It feels like someone needs to like pull me to my computer. It's like, go, like you ha like you you gotta do this. And so knowing that about myself, at least in this phase of my life, I can view it as not judging myself. There's no point getting frustrated with myself. maybe sometimes I do, but it's meeting myself where I'm at and creating a structure for myself. So I'm like trying to create some talks right now and I've I'm figuring out my flow. It's like, okay, I got the idea, the ideation. It's like cool. That's probably all I'm gonna do for one day because my brain is cooked. And the next it's like, okay, we're gonna run through it the first time. The last two talks I've made, the first ideation made no sense the second time I sat down to do it. And then I had to scrap it. The second time I really liked it. The third so I'm I'm starting to figure out the flow. And and yeah, it's and going back to what you were saying about sort of basic needs. If I'm not taking care of my if I'm drinking too much coffee, not enough water, not sleeping enough, if I'm sick, if My organ my my environment is super cluttered. It's there, these are things that are going to impact my executive functioning. And yeah, I I I find it really fun to be curious about my own inner workings and what works for me. And then I I do think it does transit onto my clients because a big part of it is hey, like let's just notice. Like we're literally experimenting with what works, what doesn't work. And when we're experimenting, it's it's not like my identity isn't attached to my experiment. Or at least like we we work to not being attached to that. and yeah, ADHD or not, oftentimes you will get an ADHD diagnosis when you have executive functioning challenges because that is part of the diagnostic criteria. And sometimes that's not always the case. Sometimes there is a lot of overstimulation and anxiety and all this stuff going on, but it doesn't change what I would support someone with or the tools that we can create together to help skip back to feeling the way they want to feel and being able to do the things that they have previously been able to do or new things. speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Let's back up just a second, just in case. Because you know what, I'm assuming that business leaders who are mostly behavior analysts listening to this podcast are aware of executive functioning skills. But maybe we should just back up and just can you can you give us a little a summary or explain or I know there's multiple categories and depending on What research you read and what psychologist you talk to, they break it down differently. But maybe we should just start there and just talk about what ex what are executive functioning skills. speaker-1: Yeah, they are what make us like a f operating human. it is so what I typically use is I I take everything from the brief. Like you said, like each person is going to categorize them differently. And I the brief two is an assessment that I have used a lot in the past and I still use sometimes now. And I typically use the categories that are in there. And so it's gonna be this is not taken directly from the brief, I'm paraphrasing, but It is going to be the organization, the planning, the transitions, the impulsivity, the emotional regulation. It's going to be it's like everything, honestly, that we like encounter in one day. And so yeah, like if if if some of it is not there, if you think about if my emotional regulation is kind of whack and I like I I'm I'm being more reactive than I usually am or more irritable than I usually am, I my planning and organizing is probably not going to be great. my capacity to do such things is going to be harder probably because there's a lot going on in my head and my body and it's just harder to access those things. And as a business owner, I I I mean I've I I don't I wouldn't say like I own an ABA clinic. I don't own a I don't own an ABA clinic, but I've worked in a few and there's so many moving parts. It's like you have so many tiered levels of employees. You have admin, you have cancellations, you have who's gonna fill in, you have insurance, you have all this stuff that is piling up on you. And yeah, it's it's important to, I think, be aware of potentially what's falling out and what would support you in coming back to like a regulated state. Or even maybe not completely regulated, because that often maybe that's not the goal. It's like writing a goal for a kid and be like a hundred percent of the time. It's like maybe that's not maybe that's not accurate. Maybe it's like 80% of the time I'd really love to be at a baseline. Or like I remember when I worked in a clinic, I was chronically overstimulated because I just couldn't sit down. But my brain loved it. I was like, I'm doing so much. And then I'd get home at the end of the day, my body would be shot. I drank too much coffee. And I remember just laying on the couch and I was so tired, but like I felt like my brain was on a treadmill. Yeah. I couldn't shut it off. My body was so tired. And yeah, I think it all goes back to we do all this work with other humans. Like if we can learn to And we don't need to learn, we know how to do it, but if we can redirect our attention to being curious about or analysing whatever, evaluating what's going on inside of ourselves, it will greatly support the people that we serve, the people we love, all the things that we're doing. speaker-0: Yeah. That was so well s well pushed. yeah, I it yeah. So speaker-2: I say something? Yeah, absolutely. So one of the like my little hack is when I'm catching myself saying I should have, then that's kind of my key to say, okay, I want something different than I have. Right. So I should have emailed that person already. That thing should already be done. You know, like I I should have uploaded that handbook to the system already. Right. Like that, that's kind of my okay, so I'm wanting I'm wanting it to be different. I'm more reactive, I'm I'm stressed. I I'm wonder like is that like how what if someone comes to you and says, Okay, fine, I'm on board with this. I I need s I know I need some help. Like how does one start with that? Does that speaker-1: Yeah, like where would I take that specifically? Yeah. I with that specifically, I my brain immediately goes to like clearly there's a a behavioral pattern there that you're already noticing. You have like a cue that you're using to interrupt a pattern, which is like that is really that's really cool. and it that for that it would be more than noticing. You're already noticing it, but if you didn't notice it, I like to say when people say should, I'd be like, Why are you shoulding all over yourself? speaker-2: It doesn't. speaker-1: and so there's these little things, Just like create different I don't know, it's a lot of diffusion where it could be if you're not noticing it. Like, okay, like who's the should? Who's like what do they look like? What's their name? these sorts of things. I've had many different characters or names be created in my sessions, which are very fun. And part of it, some people are like, it sounds like my mom and I'm like, We're not, it's not your mom. The goal is to like make it not be like that serious. Right. and like for example, I've had I've had a lot of a lot of really good ones. There most recently somebody was set told me that their like anger or the feelings they had inside looked and sounded like Napoleon Dynamite's grandma. And so then I was like, What do they sound like? So we're creating experiences that where it's like, when she said it, she's I'm kinda shy. And I'm like, Okay, it's fine. Like, just like do your do your best. I don't even know what she sounds like. and the goal is that with with the reps with that, when when I have that same thought that I just like made it feel really silly, that I can I maybe will picture an appointment dynamite's grandma. And now we have separation, which is the point. But also it's kind of silly and we're not gonna take it as seriously. So that is one of the it's personally really fun for me because it's like, is there an is there anything else? Bob is surprisingly like a really common name that people pick. speaker-0: so that's Scruffy for me. I have Scruffy. And he's like it's when I feel like I have so much information in my head, yet it's like swirling in there and I'm trying to organize it and make sense of it. And maybe I have different creative, like projects that I want to do or courses I want to teach, you know, all the things, right? But I I feel like that, like I did when I was like maybe in fifth grade when my teacher shamed me because my desk was overflowing with stuff and she made me in the middle of the class get pull stuff out of my desk and reorganize it. Or when I was a kid and I wouldn't I would work really, really, really hard to get my homework done in the afternoon and then it wouldn't make it to school the next day. I don't know where it landed. Right. So it was like those same kind of feelings of those like memories that create those feelings that then transferred into adulthood with some of those very similar things. And so I was working with my life coach at the time and she helped me with the same exercise and That's Scruffy. He's like this owl, who has like a little dust cloud around him. Maybe like a mix between Scruffy, like Scruffy the Owl and like a like a little bit of that peanuts character that has a dust cloud, you know. Charlie speaker-2: I can't remember his name. speaker-0: Brown. Anyway, like maybe as Linus, yeah. And so that's like that it and it was inter then she had me sketch it. And I was like, that you know, and so at the same time, my son was going through some you know, anger and anxiety and his story. And he we he had his honey badger, right? And he was able to describe like we worked through with him and we speaker-2: I'm a stuffy honeybee. speaker-0: even bought him a Steffi honey badger and like that was Honey Badger would come out. He it was really interesting 'cause then he would say, the planes are here and that's like when he needed to like get out, right? And Honey Badger was his fight care honey badger still shows up from time to time. and then there's dogs and dogs was his scared because at one time He did have like a situation when it was like three or four where that he like cornered by a couple of dogs. They weren't scary dogs, but to him it was scary. Yeah. And we didn't even recognize until later. And so like when he feels that, like that's like fear, that's dogs. And so I shared with him like my scruffy character. And and it was like it made it like it makes it fun. It makes it a little less scary to be vulnerable and talk about. And it gives it like some kind of concrete thing that's not your that's not you. That's like I don't know. So that's cool that this conversation is going here. speaker-2: Kind of detach from it a little bit, right? speaker-0: Serious, not so right. And then I'm like, here's Scruffy. In fact, Willis gave me that like he he bought me this like little decorate I don't know, decoration plate and it has like the scruff this owl on it. He's like, Mommy, I think this is your scruffy and he gave it to me for like Christmas one year or whatever. Anyways, so yeah, I love that strategy. speaker-1: Yeah, doing with that with children I always find to be really helpful because most kids they don't want to talk about their anger or their there's it's so much weight attached to that and there's probably shame and guilt. But if you're talking about dogs or talking about scruffy, it's like you're using different language that is gonna feel physiologically safer for them to talk about. But we all know we're talking about the same thing. Right. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. So I wonder I wonder if business owners out would this be fun? Wouldn't this be like a fun group to put together? Like, you know, to to speaker-2: Email us your patriot. speaker-0: email us your your pictures of your speaker-1: No better yet, like send a video and you're like being the Yeah. Being it. speaker-0: So fun. Well, I don't even know where to go with this conversation. I'm just, you know, trying to be here and ride it. Like you said, like meet us where or each other where our brains are. and and I'm having that kind of day today. you know, we've been batch recording podcasts and we shared that with you. And part of me is like, I should be showing up better. I should be able to, I've been looking forward to this conversation. And so there is like expectation here, right? Of The should of what I would I what I hoped, like what I wished had been true, and then recognizing that, like I I it's not. It like I'm not there. And that's okay. It's a little disappointing, but it could also turn out the way it's supposed to, right? And so I I'm trying to like, I don't know how how well this is gonna work out, but I'm trying to like compare that too, like, I mean, yes, all business owners out there, you're all human, so you all have these human experiences. But when you're looking at like those expectations that you have and that on yourself as what you how you should show up as a business leader, who you know, I don't know, can we bridge that somehow? speaker-1: Yeah, so so I think what let me just paraphrase so I understand what you're asking. so it's like how do we sort of remedy the expectations we have for ourselves going into things and then in those moments if we don't really feel like we're measuring up to those expectations? is that kind of what okay. So speaker-2: Yeah, I mean it it could be as simple as l you know, you're looking at your RCM, so your revenue cycle management, you're looking at the accounts receivable and you got a hundred thousand dollars out past thirty days and you're like that money should be mine, right? Like and why haven't I done this yet? Why is it so you're like kind of cursing at the world Whether it may be your own your own flaws or things are not going you're not growing as quickly as you would like. you look on Facebook and you see, you know, a colleague and their ABA practice is obviously so much better than mine. And you know, things like that, right? Like I think that's kind of what business owners tackle every day. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean that's kind of what we're getting to, right? yeah, a that's here. You know, shame or disappointment or annoyance or whatever it may be is here. now what? speaker-1: Yeah. With that, I I would say it's I mean, it all goes to the noticing, right? And I don't know, acceptance for me is interesting. Like when I first learned about ACT, I it was like many, many years ago, but it wasn't really explained to me in a way that I understood. Or maybe I was I was like way too new of a BCBA for it to really register. But I was like, why would I accept the crappy things that are happening to me? Like I don't wanna accept that, I don't like it. And then years later when I was actually it was defined for me in a way that my brain grasped, maybe it was just like maybe my brain was also fully developed. I passed my BCPA when I was twenty four, so it was not fully developed then. it was willingness. It's like, okay, I just need to be willing to feel this. Because the second I get in a back and forth with my thoughts, my body's going to react, everything is going to react. Because of course, if the shoulds pop up, that means I'm probably not doing I'm not f like measuring up to the expectation that I had. Because it wouldn't show up if that was the case. Right. and so yeah, I probably I think I just blanked in where I going with that. But yeah, so being able to notice that it's happening and like those distancing strategies. The second that if for me, I if I notice that I am like, I mean fuse would be the act word, but more along the lines of if I feel like it's like taken over in like this sort of exercise, like if it's all I can see is my like frustration or my anxiety or anything like that, developing the tools and having the tools to just like take a step back. Like can I can I come and can I zoom out a little bit? Maybe I move my body in a certain way. Anything that's gonna give my body and my brain the cue to like step back and just look at the situation more objectively and then go back to like, okay, what what do I want to choose in this moment? and it could be values, it could be it could be many different things. But I think sometimes when we when it is does feel like this, I don't we don't really feel much of a choice. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, you feel stuck. speaker-1: It's like, okay, when I'm when I'm here, there's only one possible option. But when it's like this, I can then be like, Okay, my bigger why. Like, sure, I can I can sit here and look at this person's Instagram and they have way more followers than I do. They must be they must be way more successful than me. Right. That's the part of my brain when it's like this. When it's like this, like I actually have no idea. Like I genuinely don't have any idea what's happening. when I'm here, I can make a choice to be like, do I want to reach out to them and see, like, connect with them? Do I want to just drop this assumption right now and just refocus back onto my vision and the business that I'm building? so that's what I s that's what I would I would say. It to me, like it all goes back to like can I notice my experiences. And have a feeling of more objectivity towards it. And it's a practice. It's never something that we'll be able to master because some emotions, some thoughts are gonna have much more like longevity of experiences attached to it. Some are gonna be newer. Maybe I am sleep deprived, I haven't had water, haven't had food, and I don't know. Like so interesting. Like sometimes if I'm really into a book, right? This is a personal example, like usually a fantasy book. I'm like in the middle of a war in my brain. It's like it's intense. My husband like comes up next to me, he's breathing and I'm like, Don't you breathe next to me? Like you just took me out of what he has no idea like what's happening in my head. so things like that where I could I mean, in those moments I probably don't use this use it. I said it doesn't come to me as quickly. But I know that I have it, right? And it's it goes back to do I judge myself because I didn't realize it right before it happened or in the moment, or do I say like, okay, I realized five minutes later and I could laugh at myself. It like what are we what then like what are we accrediting to like our progress or like what we did with it? If it if it goes back to shame and guilt, then we're gonna sort of always be in a cycle of of that. Not to say like shame and guilt will probably show up because we're human and we care about things and we try things and things don't work and all these things. but it's like how we interact with it and our relationship with it is what I believe matters the most. And relationship being like the skills, the narratives we have attached to it. speaker-2: And so when you're working with whatever this could be, I I don't know, maybe a trigger of yours is my bank account should have more money or w whatever, right? Like and then you go d are you stepping out of logic? Because I know with with my whatever you know, I'm competing with Steven in twenty years time, right? Like I I'm playing this game, and and it's like a I I have envisioned it like a it's like a a never ending chessboard where you like every time okay I gotcha and I give this logic statement this see like this is why and and then I'm playing myself right and I can never win like it just it's going forever and I'm stuck in this loop of arguing with myself and it it doesn't matter what I say. and even sometimes I have found okay I've logically defeated myself whatever that even means right and and then the next time I go to use that same thing the other part of me is that I've gotcha, right. I can counter that move now. And then I I'm stuck in this forever. So like when you're working on accepting, you know, you may not be happy about it, but like it's like, you know, I thought it was gonna be a nice sunny day and and it's thunderclouds and rain and I'm soaked. Like y like you can you can curse at the world and say, How dare you, right? Or you can say, it's right, maybe I should go inside. Right. And so like when How do you get out of that? Is it is it something that you can do logically? Because I as far as I can tell, I can't. But I I'm curious what what your thoughts are on that. speaker-1: Yeah, my brain right there went to it seems like what you where you go is not in the present. Like that's like pretty close. And so when we're in this battle, it's like whether it's like, I had this really exciting thing I was gonna do today and I'm in Austin, Texas, and it's so hot. Like it's so hot. and so let's say for example, I told myself I was gonna go for a walk on the trail in the morning and then I didn't go and now it's one PM and it's a hundred and two degrees. Like I'm probably not gonna go. I could my brain is very easily gonna be like, my God, if I only did that, then I'd have more energy right now, I'd be more productive today. Or and so when I'm there, I'm now in a battle with myself. it all goes back to the nervous system. I'm gonna get frustrated myself, whatever. It's gonna hold me back from the future from like what I'm gonna do for the rest of my day. And so it goes back to the noticing, like it where am I right now? Okay, I'm in the past, I'm in the future. And then it's working on that present moment awareness. Okay, I can acknowledge it, I can notice that I'm feeling that way. And then it's like, okay. Whatever diffusion exercise I have, we're gonna blow it in the wind and then we're gonna come back to the present moment. It's like, okay, what do I wanna make my day be about? Like what's my intention for the day? What's my value for the day? Whatever, whatever that looks like. because it's really interesting, going back to ADHD is like a I find this to be fascinating, is that research, I don't I don't remember exactly the research or when it was done, but or who it was on if it was adult or children, but expectations, right? Like if if I am expecting to do something fun. And my dopamine like well dopamine often is released before the action even happens if we've had the experience with it. And so I use a classic example of kids with devices, right? if I am coming home from school and I'm like, ooh, I'm gonna like I'm gonna get more time today. and so in my head, I'm gonna get it. I'm already playing it in my head, I'm like, my dopamine's spiking. I go home, I go, Mom, can I have can I have an extension on my time? I want thirty more minutes. No. What happens to the dopamine and ADHD brains is that it actually dips lower than baseline, which I don't exactly know. I think I know what that feels like because I have felt it, but emotions are gonna come up from that because it's gonna genuinely not feel comfortable. And especially you think I you think of kids who their emotional regulation is not fully developed because their brains are small, smaller and they're not fully developed. And so just knowing that about expectations in themselves, I think like I mean, knowledge is power, right? If I know that that this is I was expecting to do this. And it didn't happen. And I get like I think I usually get angry. if an expectation for me is not met, then I can start to feel angry inside. And knowing that neurologically, ph whatever, chemically in my brain, that's actually what's happening. It it can so it can support me in being like, okay, like this isn't me. Like I'm not I'm not choosing to do this. It's just like my body's reacting in a specific way. And me and even for me that creates some distance. It's like, all right, what do I gonna do right now? Regardless of how I reacted, it may take me a little longer to come out of it if I feel like a little embarrassed about how I acted. But the expectations I think are yeah, it's a a tricky thing. Especially in behavior analysis, we're we're taught about all the observable, which is wonderful. And then as a human, as and then we realize if we the more work we do on ourselves, I personally think, the better we become at being a business owner, to being a behavior analyst, because we now have the experiences of I know what that feels like. Even if I'm not eleven, twelve years old. Like I I rema I know what that feels like in my body and I can connect with how I felt when I was a kid or as a a business owner. It's like these are all things that we can pull from as well. speaker-2: I there's that there's a level of empathy there that you wouldn't have had, right, without that experience. And so like when you're working with someone 'cause I like I'm thinking about like I'm an engineer, right? So that that's where I go. and for the longest time it was all like this below the neck it was just a transportation device to get my brain from here to there. And and like I was I had chronic pain and and so like I've got this beat up junker car and it's you know and it it's useless, right? But it it gets the job done. And so like that's all it was, right? It was a transportation device. Everything was here. The only thing that mattered was in here. And I'm assuming that some behavior analysts are in a similar situation, right? Data is important, observable data, right? It can't be an internal thing. How do you get someone that kinda that that doesn't know how to even feel what an emotion feels like? Like 'cause that that was my struggle is like what does it feel like in your body? I I can remember working with a therapist. What do you mean what does it feel like? Like I don't know. There's nothing. This doesn't do anything, right? Like and so like how how how do how do you get started on that to even get out of the brain or the past or future or what whatever you know you're kinda stuck in? How how What are the ways that you can work with someone that is like super logical to get out of that? speaker-1: Yeah. As business owners, even BCBAs who are working clinically, we're doing constantly. And if you have like if like I mean, I feel like I'm similar, like very intellectual brain, love solving problems. Like I like I really love the way my brain operates. And it's so easy to get into the doing, especially since that's what's required to have a successful insert, whatever you're doing. Sure. and so switching out of that can be challenging. And so what I would say for that is Finding ways to check in with your body. I like if you're talking about it post the situation, you're probably most people can't really remember what they felt. Because if you have no history of c really being connected with your body and knowing what it feels like, you're not gonna be able to recall what your body felt like. And so those are gonna be which makes more sense for behavior analysts, like in the moment check-ins for these sorts of things. what I usually like, I mean there's a bunch of things. There's an app that I like, it's called How We Feel. Okay. It's from it was created from scientists. I have the book somewhere. I actually The book is called Permission to Feel and it's a wonderful book. And that app actually has check-ins. So there's four quadrants of emotions, and one is like high energy pleasant, low energy pleasant, and then high energy, like pretty much unpleasant, and the opposite. And so there's all these emotions in it, and the UI is amazing on it too. It's like all like it's like it vibrates, everything's like fun and pretty. And you can check in with yourself. And there's all and you get to like scroll and you're like, I feel this way. And there's also an option to put notes in. If you wanted to. There's a lot of other tools they have in it, which is really cool. But that is one that I often will recommend to like families or people who are just trying to check in with themselves. And then you have a record of, okay, I felt this way, I felt this way. And I think it's just getting those reps in and those experiences. So in in RFT, there is a concept called tracking. And so with that, it is okay, I'm gonna do the thing, but if I don't actually stop and reflect in a sense, like how it felt. what I did it, what worked, what didn't work, I'm not gonna remember it. Not because I can't remember things, but because I didn't actually give my time, my brain and my body the space to have an experience and talk about it. and so that is kind of where where that where that is and it's it's a muscle to keep building and to keep building. Because I I get it. It's like to connect these two for me has been is tough sometimes, especially if the habit is is in the in the like the doing constantly. speaker-2: Yeah, it's kinda like the natural like that's you know the way gravity works, right? You go. And so like that that's just the natural way that my that I work. And so like is this you're not doing this you're not you're not checking in on this app during those hard moments that we we should be doing this on a regular basis to try and form a habit? Is that what we're trying to try to do? speaker-1: With most things, if you're trying to only do it in the hard moments, you're not gonna probably remember unless you have like post-its like on your face to remember to do it. Right. so building that habit because I mean, it's probably really nice to also notice the pleasant feelings. I'm just what joy feels like or this is what calm feels like, 'cause those ones are really easy to skip over because I don't need to do anything with that. It's not getting in my way. And so if we let's say, for example, it's like, okay, every day at noon or like right before I go to bed, I'll the app will like send me a text and like, hey, check in. And then I like checking with my body and just kinda there's so many options, which is really cool. And it gives you the definitions of it. And you can just say, okay, this one. And then it starts to build it starts to build a I don't know, just like a like a memory in your body to be like, I remember what that feels like. That's cool. And it's also there's something that I really like that I I did the I did years ago. I and it's funny, Adam Grant, he's an organizational psychologist, I just saw him a little while ago in a podcast like talking exactly about this. And I was like okay, cool. so the concept of gratitude journals, I never could really get behind gratitude. I don't really know what gratitude feels like. speaker-2: Yeah, I I'm worth you. Yeah. speaker-1: And so I was like, okay, I want to feel more joy. Like I know I feel joy, but I'm not remembering any of it. And so I did a joy journal. And I expectations, I was like, okay, I don't care if I write down one. Like I'm just gonna write down what I can remember from my day. And so I started with right before I went to bed, I would like have an open next to I'd be like, okay, what brought me joy? this client giggling. Or I like I had a moment where the sun looked really or the sky looked really cool. And so I was able to write those things down and what happens in your brain is you are reliving those moments essentially and the same chemicals are being released in your brain. If you think the opposite, if I'm ruminating constantly, I'm essentially my body is reliving those moments. So I'm I'm doing the opposite of that. And what I found, I did it for like three months and then I didn't feel like I needed to do it anymore. But what I found was that I started being able to notice those moments in the moment more. And like I was connected more with how my body was feeling. And it was cool because I could go back and be like, my God, I remember that. my God, I remember that. And so That is a apparently now there's research if Adam Grant's done research on it, that it's it could be validated. But it it helps and I tell my clients sometimes like pick any emotion you want to feel more of. Because it's cool. It's like a mechanism to be able to refocus your mind and you're starting from like a reflection standpoint. And then it starts to creep in. And I also noticed that it was really hard for me to figure them out at the beginning. And then as I kept going, like one month in, two months in, I was immediately being like, I remember. And I could feel it in my body as well when I was remembering. speaker-0: Is so cool. Yeah, that that was one thing that, you know, in my journey, I mean, just a few years ago, like still very new skill for me. I recognized that I could only feel the extreme. Like I knew what anger felt like, right? Like I knew what like excited felt like. and and well, and through that learning that like, you know, anxiety, right? Like all those feelings that you we we label anxiety, hold on a minute, maybe that's excitement too, right? Kind of sorting through all of that. But when somebody said there was a conversation about happiness. and we were talking about it's just like at my with some friends of mine, and were talking about like happy and then like content and like all of those different like descriptors for that category of feeling. Positive. Positive. And I was like, I don't know how to discern between that that's just like this. speaker-1: Make me think I don't even think Happy is on this. speaker-0: Yeah. it's like what is that even, right? And so I love joy. speaker-1: You think about happy, it's like there could so many be thing more things. Like yeah, so it looks like this, right? So here's like this is kinda but then like say at school, I click this, right? Yep, yep. Now there's all these emotions and so speaker-0: So that reminds me of like the spots that the spot emotions. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. It does, okay. But it says filled with joy, so you can also say it's joy. speaker-0: See, I love that. Well, I a couple years ago, because we did a major life change and we moved. and part of our move was we want to live life like we're on vacation. And what does that look like? And how do we want to engage in that? And and how do we want to not like busy? Part of that was like to not busy ourselves, to slow ourselves down. Because both being who we are and we birthed a child who's very much like us, like we like to do. We like to plan. We we have we all have ideas and we want to see those ideas like come into the world and and so one of our big you know, I guess goals. The goals might be putting it strongly, better intentions was to like slow slow life down. And it took us a good year to get to that point where we even could understand what that felt like and through that we were sitting with learning how to sit with our emotions more and sitting with in the moment and realizing just how uncomfortable that is you know, is not as you think like, like you idealize, like, I'm gonna like slow down and just smell roses and take slow walks and blah blah blah. And like the idea, at least for me, the idea seems so like peaceful and but I didn't I didn't expect that once I started doing that a little bit more, the uncomfortableness of it and then how much that allowed all of those thoughts to start speaker-1: Tchau. speaker-0: coming out. And I was like, and then I'm like, I don't know what to do with these thoughts, right? I gotta do I gotta be busy, right? 'Cause that's and and so I see that a lot. I mean, I still see that in myself. By no means am I saying, I went through this beautiful journey and here I am on the other side. Cause no, it's it's very much of like a a life because we're again speaker-2: And seven things in the next month. speaker-0: this year has been not it this year has not felt like we're living on vacation. But that's okay too sometimes because we want to grow. We want to, you know, we have goals. We want to put things out into the world. We want to see these ideas come. And we still are trying to take little snippets of time where we're taking those moments. But I I don't know exactly where I'm going with this thought. I had a point in the beginning. I mean, I like this is where my brain is right now. Like I definitely am like, wow, I I need to find some more moments in my day to just sit and to be and to enjoy. But I know I was going back for that. Okay. So during that time when we had that first year as we were like transitioning and figuring it all out, the the second year that we lived here, I've like had this whole intention of chasing joy. And we would do all of these things to chase joy. So not only was I recognizing and I was trying to, like you said, like a joy journal. I love calling it a joy journal. Why didn't I think of that? Because I did like a gratitude journal, right? And I would write down the things that I was grateful for. And probably a lot of those were the things that brought me joy. Anyways, but we also would like actively like seek things to do that would bring us joy. Like I was on a walk with my son one time and there was this like really lush green like little field that had this hill in it. And I was like allowing my child like like fun to pop out. I was like, let's go roll down that field. Like, let's go roll down that. That looks like it's gonna be so much fun to roll down. And he's like Mom, like is that not private property? Like people are gonna watch us. And I was like, I don't care. Let's do it. Let's see what happens. Right. And so we actively, but to be able to have the space to do that, like the slowing down and the being in the moment, like kind of had to be there first. And then as I was seeking the joy, and then I started like what you're looking for is what you're gonna see more of, right? Like we started like seeking that joy. and and that was a really cool experience. And it's not gone, it's still there. I'm just not as cued into it. I'm not as intentional as I was there for a couple of years. I don't know. I don't know. Take it I don't know. Take whatever you want. speaker-1: No, I it it makes sense. There like I'll do like mindfulness exercises 'cause sometimes I mean with a lot of people with ADHD, it's you're going like so fast, so fast, so fast, so fast. And it just but also feels good to go that fast. But then it's like screeching too. It's like it's I don't even I don't I don't even have brakes on my car. I don't even know where the brakes went. And I have seen I've learned over the last few years that I I don't jump straight into like long ones or like certain more 'cause I I'll see some people they're like Like a lot of them I they a lot of them turn their cameras off because I'll like can you turn your camera off if you don't want me to stare at you? but sometimes like genuinely so uncomfortable and it's almost like a baseline to to me to just be like okay, like we're not there yet. And so sometimes if it's not sitting with yourself, it's more mindfulness exercises like, can you go like put on a podcast and walk to if you're in a neighborhood where you can walk, like go walk down to like the nearest grocery store, grab yourself a drink. and so, or like mindfully like doing your dishes. But it doesn't mean you have to do it silence. It's like put on music or like whatever. Like maybe it's not with words, but it's like it's also then noticing in your body, like, how does that feel? sometimes, like if I feel like really overstimulated, sometimes I find it really cool to put on like meditation music and then walk places. And I feel like I'm like the main character in my story because my nervous system is just like all kind of overstimulated in general, and it just it feels really good in my ears, and then I'm just like, Whoa like look at such I I feel like it could be on drugs, but I'm actually not on drugs. speaker-0: Totally, totally. I do that. I like the like binaural beats, you know, like where you put your headphones in and it has I don't know the science behind it or if there even is, but like that like really that like helps me to like cue in. It just gives that extra stimulation. And yeah, you didn't know like you speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: And and and it's the same thing. Like, especially like when I'm like picking up the house. Like I'm just doing some like light resetting or like straightening the pillows on the couch. And so I'll put that on. I'm still like I'm I know I'm being busy, but it's like not like I don't I'm not like, I'm going in for a deep clean. I have to get this. It's just it's just light movement. Like I'm just walking through my space and I'm like tidying a pillow and I'm but I've got this like music and to me, that feels like A more comfortable version of being a little less doy. And speaker-2: And it and it keeps you in the moment. speaker-0: it keeps me in the moment, right? And now I do absolutely love going for slow walks. And I love like we live right at the beach. And today when I was on my quick walk in between podcasts, I was like, I saw the beach and I was like, my body was just kept walking. And I was like, I don't know when the last time I've just gone down to the beach and meandered and like Like honestly, I ha I mean and I was I made a practice of that for a good two two years, two like almost three years. Like the first year I was learning that. And then like a couple of years of really making sure I was like grounding and all of these different things, right? And so in just the season that we're in right now, I was like speaker-1: Have it? speaker-0: just walk down to the beach and like put my foot in the puddles and walk to the sand just because, right. so I don't know, maybe that's something that I will try to make some effort to do even just once a week or something, just to try to start. I mean, is that how is that the best way to get like to to to follow that intention and to be able to put that back into practice when either whether you've never had that practice or you've kind of gotten out of it and you're trying to get back in. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I you most likely have to start planning it. And it takes more of a conscious cognitive effort to start things back up again. But I like to think of I mean, as a behavior analyst, right, I think of everything as functional. Yeah. It's like functionally, what is this providing me? And is it moving me towards the the goal or like if you have a specific goal or if it's a value? It's like, I actually like for you, it's like, I actually want to get back to maybe not exactly where I was before, but I want to be able to access that feeling more often. And you know, I did this before. Let me try to do that like once or twice a week and just see what happens. speaker-0: Right. It's not you don't have to necessarily recreate anything, just kind of going back to what worked before and sitting with that and seeing if that's still the thing that works. speaker-2: Right, 'cause there is always that possibility that that same thing that helped before doesn't quite give you what you need now, right? I I assume. speaker-1: Or it would take longer to get back. If like this phase is like much more busy than the phase you started it in, then it may take a little bit longer. Like I know I've I've felt before where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna relax and I'm gonna be like more mindful. And then my mind's like, but I gotta do this, I gotta do that, I gotta do this. and I've had clients before where I this one client, he he just got a whiteboard in his living room and he would just walk. Every time he they come as he'd just like walk it was like not structured, not he's like, I gotta get it out. And he's I wrote on it so much this week, like things I gotta do. And he would just he's walking by, he's like, and he'd like move on. and so it goes back to like not fighting with it. Like, my god, why don't why can't I just focus? Why can't I just relax? It's if that is happening, then we've already kind of lost because we're in a battle with with it. And like, okay, like here's where I'm at, here's where I want to get to. And if it isn't in more of the doing, which is like that's totally fine. Sometimes we gotta do to start things. And it's like, okay, I'm gonna plan ahead. Tomorrow I'm gonna leave my phone at home and I'm gonna go for a walk on the beach. And then come back when I feel like I want to come back. Or if I have to be back by certain time, like I'll ask my husband to like come back on the on the beach and tell me to come outside. Or like whatever, whatever it looks like. and then it goes back to like checking in with yourself or like how did that work? I actually feel really great right now. Or I do it, maybe tomorrow I'll try it for a little bit longer, or I'll listen to something. While I do it and see what happens. speaker-0: Yeah, because it doesn't necessarily mean I mean, this was part of what I learned when I first learned the skill. Was like that didn't work. speaker-1: Yeah, it's like see, I knew it. speaker-0: Wasted an hour of my time and it didn't work 'cause now I'm more stressed out. And and what I learned is, my my life coach I love you, JJ. She said she's also a B C B A. she's like, if you feel like you need to take one day off, take two. And I was like, You're No. No, I don't have time for that. But it really is true. What I learned is well, I started to learn to notice it much sooner, right? And then I'm like, it didn't even have to get to that point. I did start noticing it sooner and then I it didn't take as much to be able to get back to what felt good for me. but more recently I haven't been. And so it's like that one hour walk on the beach it might not be enough. I might need multiple hours. I might need mul across multiple days, I may need headphones and I may need right there. Maybe maybe the beach wasn't a thing. Maybe I needed to go walk through the woods, maybe I needed to go Walking the mall. I don't know, right? Like, but that's the thing. It's like just because you try it once and it you feel like it doesn't work doesn't mean like you have to keep tweaking and trying because maybe it just wasn't enough or wasn't quite the right thing for this for this moment. speaker-1: Yeah, it's so easy for us to like collect the evidence of the of like the rules per se that aren't really serving us. like the confirmation bias in psychology. Where like you were saying, it's like, see, didn't work. Yeah. Told ya me, like told ya, like, yeah. I knew I wasn't gonna be able to relax today. I'm just not someone who can relax. And then and then now like we're we're like getting it's like more solidified in us. Yeah. when on the other hand, like there were probably times in your day where you were less like I don't even know what word stressed, but we don't notice those moments because yeah, because why would we when this is this is what we're trying to yeah to focus on. I always think like the confirmation bias thing is like so cool because growing up I would always like become obsessed with these cars. Like I don't even know, I was obsessed with this like boxy square car for like th five days of my life. And I then I started seeing it everywhere. And of course, there wasn't more of those cars on the road just because I now discovered that I was obsessed with it for multiple days in a row. But it was now what my brain was catching. It was like noticing all those things. And sometimes we have to tr we almost have to intentionally pay attention to different things because the way that our brains are wired just evolutionarily is to survive and we notice the things that are gonna feel bigger and more threatening to us than the things that feel calm and and peaceful and all that. speaker-2: Yeah, I can't remember what podcast it was, but this guy was on it and he said, Okay, look around the room and find everything that's red. And so the guy the host will look around the room and then then he said, Okay, now tell me what things you saw that were green and it was like, yeah, speaker-1: I think I saw It's like Tony Robbins on. speaker-2: yeah, it was Tony Robinson. I can't remember it was the comedian. Theogon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I I mean I've seen I've seen this example like play out like in multiple, you know, scenarios. And it I mean it really is true, right? Like we just, you know, we got your mom that red car. speaker-2: Yeah, and now they see it everywhere. speaker-0: Yeah. They're like, there's a lot of red cars in our town, you know, things like that. Like it's just it's really what we're looking for. I mean that's what I think sometimes with and like Hear me out. I I'm not judging anyone here. I'm the last person that should be judging anybody. And and and I know it this might seem oversimplified, but I think of that even with like leaders, owners, who we have our, you know, our staff, right? And and we start to focus in on, you know, so and so's session notes are late, or this insurance that you know, like we're we start to those things that we feel heavy and and we start the that Like, I don't know, like our brains get trained, right, to look for those even more. And I'm sure there's some kind of reinforcement there, right? Like there's some kind of behavioral cycle depending on how it plays out for you. It may be a little different for each person. but then we start seeing those things more and more and more, and then we're like we start to have like this such a negative impact of speaker-2: I I don't I don't think it's a business owner. I think it's a BC like a behavior analyst thing. You guys are trained to find the you know the the deficits, right? And then you fix them. And so it's almost like this is a natural thing that you guys do, right? here are the things that we need to fix. This is how we fix them, right? speaker-0: Well like we're humans. speaker-2: No, you're robots. speaker-0: Nobody g nobody should be f speaker-1: But I think it's speaker-2: You know what I'm saying? I may be using the wrong language, right? speaker-0: Okay by the yeah. speaker-1: You're hundred percent accurate. Like when when I first started learning act, I was at I noticed that I couldn't even listen because I was already coming up with solutions in my head as the person was talking and it wasn't a conscious thing. And so I had to then retrain my brain. Took me a while to actually let's like listen. And I first started by just like writing things down because I often like maybe would still forget them. But it was frustrating, like, do this thing. And I'm like, I literally can't. I don't even know what you said. I came up with seven different solutions for you. speaker-2: But I like Apple. Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, a lot when I would be at these act conferences, people would be like, I I literally like can't. I remember Dr. Tom Zabo, he was like, We B C A's are fixers. But in order to use ACT, it's like and really embed like the values and the qualities of ACT, especially with motivational interviewing as well. Listening is a huge part of it. And we can easily beat ourselves up and be like, my god, I can't do this. But like, yeah, you can. We just have multiple years, decades of Yes. Conditioning in the way that we are paying attention to information coming at us is gonna take but we know the longer a behavior's been reinforced, the longer it's gonna take for it to change. speaker-2: Yeah, I mean you've done five million sit-ups and you're like complaining 'cause I can't do a push up. Well, no, no yeah, of course. Right? Like you've been doing this for so long and you're amazing at this thing. But yeah, like and I think that also and I'm knocking on be a behavior analyst now, but like the the other thing that I I do see and I th this is kind of a business owner trait, but I think it it's a natural response for a behavior analyst is I'm not letting that person make that mistake because I know how to do it. And so I'm just gonna do it so they don't make the mistake. And so there there is that almost that like you can't allow this person to make a mistake and ha if they can't make a mistake, how do they learn? So there's like that we're speaker-0: Well, so like delegating. So that's kind of where my brain was going as we were talking through this. I'm like and then like I was totally judging my cause I like, Finally, finally, brain. You come online and you make it all make sense and you're here where you wanted to be in the beginning. But is is like we talk about like taking care of yourself as a B C B A as a as a business owner, being able to take care of yourself as you're taking care of your staff, right? And then and and your clients of course. But We've talked multiple times on here about like self awareness and how important it is to be self aware and to know who you are and what skills you have and what weaknesses you have and and just being being intentional and being able to be in the moment. Like we talk about it like as if I mean we've had deep conversations, but sometimes I feel like we oversimplify things. Just do this thing. Everything will be great. Hopefully we don't come across that way. but speaker-2: Well, you can't do it. Come on, it's easy. speaker-0: but the thing is, okay, so what we hear a lot from owners, what I've said myself as an ABA business owner, what we're in a season right now, I don't have time for that. I'm just gonna do it myself. At the same time, I don't have time for that thing. And it's this like loop in this cycle, and then it's like, I'll just do it. And but you can't do all the things. And then so then things start to fall and get messy. a and then it could that I mean of course depending on everyone's story could look a little different, but then you're feeling stuck, you're feeling burnt out, you're feeling just defeated, you're like, What am I doing wrong? and then some people will like reach out and be like, my staff needs to do things better and they're like, Do things better, staff. But you're not supporting them. speaker-1: I think it's better. speaker-0: I know. speaker-2: Yes. speaker-0: And so so I mean that's but a lot of bottom business owners come to us in that moment of overwhelm or we all see it on social media as everyone's co having their conversations and this is where we've talked about it. Like Steven's like it's like a hazard of your profession of your It's speaker-2: I think it is. speaker-0: a job hazard of the way that you've trained your brain to be. speaker-2: I'm saying that there's anything wrong with that. It it's just like anything else, right? You've used it this way, like it's just it's like muscle memory and now to do it the another way, it it's really hard to do. I think that I think people in general struggle with that. It's just you know, you found a shortcut and now we're telling you to meander and you're like, what the F is this? Right? Like why in the world would I ever do that? speaker-0: It's it's too like we've had discussions of like knowledge of ABA, right? Like because we have very specific training. A lot of us, I'm speaking generally here, have a lot of training in very specific ABA, like autism, early intervention, ABA, right? And so we've had some conversations about maybe too, could this is part of this, like not having a full understanding of our science and being able to apply it outside of that very specific model. And especially if you have a very Hmm. A very certain way that you do it, a very systematic certain way, like that cookie cutter type way that you're applying it. like how like and that's what the thing when I started learning about act and started learning about nervous system, and my first was like I don't know. Like then I was like, okay, well, I must hate ABA because I can't both can't be true because my brain's very black and white and it likes things and buckets and categories. And I was like, okay, well, does speaker-1: It is speaker-0: this feels really good? This actually gives me hope and this makes sense to me. But I've had decades of training in this, and this is how it's supposed to be. So I like struggle Thessalys part of my last four years, like trying to four or five years, trying to figure out where I even like, okay, I have all this new information, this new knowledge, and then but I have this training and how do they even so it's It's how they even work together? Can they work together? Is this a thing? Right. And so I so excited about where the field is going and that more and more people are having these conversations and that, but there's still there's still a lot of people out there who are thinking the same thing I did before of like, well, these can't both be true. I don't know. speaker-1: Yeah, and to me as behavior analysts, yeah, we're trained. I remember when I I just I I've been BCBA for ten years now. And I remember like at the beginning I left grad school and I was like, I know everything. Like I of course you did. I don't need that. I don't need like that science that I know literally how to solve everything. Like don't take don't come at me and tell me I don't know the answers. And like over the years go on, it's r like I think B C B A's, especially business owner B C BAs. being informing your practice with outside sources. We don't need to recreate the wheel. There are so many brilliant books, so many different perspectives, and they don't have to be within ABA businesses, right? Human behavior is human behavior. And the patterns that you guys see in your clients is probably the same patterns you see in like larger organizations that are tech companies, like all this, all this sort of stuff. And informing your practice with different methodologies and What I have learned is that's how I am. I'll like learn, I'll read a bunch of stuff that are not within ABA. But you always can tie it back. Like like my understanding of of everything in some sense is like functional human behavior. And of course I now have more things in my toolbox to like my like my relational frames are like I'm deriving things constantly from the things that I have learned. But you all can tie it back to, I understand why this works because of the because of the the the training that we have received. in in our life. So yeah, as being a business owner when when we're on the go constantly, it's gonna be so easy to go back to the automatic. That has been so drilled into us. And then I think that's also going back to like kind of the theme of the conversation where if we're able to stop and check in, it's like, is this the direction I actually want to go in? Do I want to solve this problem right now for my staff? What is this communicating to them if I do it for them? And also thinking long term. Like I'm thinking directly in the moment, solve the problem, move on to the next one. Like if if I give this to them, maybe they don't do it the perfect way that I'm gonna do it, but I spend some time to coach them on it. How does this look for them and for even for my business if they're still working for me two years from now? Like where do I want to invest? speaker-2: Yeah, I mean it's hard in that moment. You know, I've I've I've called this Mighty Mouse syndrome a number of times. But like you you sick you come in and save the day and everybody's wow, what a awesome job. You're so great at this. Thank you so much, right? And and then you not only do you fix this problem and and it's now fixed. You don't have to worry about somebody else making a mistake, but you get that that, you know, reinforcement of fixed for the moment it's so awesome. Right. And so there's there's that piece of it too. And it's it's addictive. speaker-1: also assume resentment builds too. speaker-2: I'm sure. speaker-1: If like I mean it's negatively reinforcing, right? I have this thing that's stressing me out. I know I can do it and get done really fast. I don't need to feel I don't I don't need to deal with this feeling anymore. Yeah. speaker-2: I don't need to feel it. Yeah, it's gone. speaker-1: I did it. yeah I I would also then imagine like the narratives, right? The stories that we're confirming about people I know like previous colleagues I've had, looking back I had them in a box. I'm like, they're inflexible. They're kind of a they're a jerk. So I always like to say people can't exist outside of the box I put them in. Sure. So so if they're if if to me they're inflexible and they're old school, I'm not gonna notice any of the things they're doing other than that. Like this person is incredibly kind. He was he was he was a really kind guy. He was smart, he loved his data, like those are all inherently not bad qualities. But I was the frame I had on all of it was inflexible. That's all I saw. And Yeah, and I would I would assume I probably have done this in the past too, like we're probably all have for human. But it's like I if if like I I give someone a task and assume they're gonna make a specific mistake and they might, I'm now confirming whatever story I have about them. If if I'm unaware of like what kind of what's going on in my speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean I do that like in our in our marriage, like with our conversations. Like you know, like it I will I I will already predict what he's going to say. And not in the sense of like, I mean in the way that you're saying too, but like like it will shape how I say the thing to you because I've already gone through my head, okay, if I say it this way, he's gonna say this. If I say it this way, he's gonna say this. If he's gonna say and like that whole process happens in like seconds or less, right? But then I say the thing that I but then what happens sometimes is then your reaction to the thing I've decided is okay, this one's the safest thing way to say it you don't respond the way that I expected it predicted it to happen. And then it like every like then I don't even know where to stand, but then then I'm like, if I could just ask the question I have without that process Allow you to answer just however you answer without predicting speaker-2: You didn't go all minority report on me. You remember that movie? No, I know. No, it's like pre it's I had to look it up 'cause I was like, is that the movie? but it's like the they have these like super human people and they can predict the future, right? And they can see all all of the th and then they can they can stop crime from happening. And so like that I assume is like you're going to evolve into that person. speaker-0: But I I often wonder and I I had this conversation with a B C behavior analyst recently and I was like, you know, I don't know if that was my nature before I learned about ABA and that's what drew me to ABA or if that my brain just got so reprogrammed learning ABA for and I've been in the field for thirty years. So speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: I guess. But it's like I just I could see all the very and I don't know how much of it is my neurospicy brain, right? Maybe it's a little bit of everything. But it does take some intention to like not not go ahead and put that person in the box and or not set that expectation yeah, or try to fix it before it even happens, kind of thing. I wonder if other people feel that way too. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's probably an inherently human trait. But as behavior analysts, we're so hyper aware of our own of of the patterns and the behavior and why it's happening. I'm sure a lot of people experience that. Not everyone, but I know that I I also I experience that as well. I I saw this this is like a little bit unrelated, but I I I saw this funny video on Instagram yesterday and it was like it it was like sorry for being in a bad mood. I created a whole schedule in my head but didn't tell you and now you're not following it. Yeah And I do that like with my husband sometimes. I'm like, but in my head, like we went to get breakfast and now you're going to play pickleball. That wasn't a part of my schedule. And now I feel a little bit frustrated. He's like, I literally you didn't say this. And I was like, You're correct. I did not I did not. You had no idea this was going on in my head. But nevertheless, I'm still feeling a certain way about the the change that 'cause it feels like a change to because I had already made up my mind that that's what was happening. speaker-0: One hundred percent. You you get my brain. It's so nice to find people who understand my brain. And my look at you can tell Steven's like I don't understand this. Do you ever feel that way? Do you like seriously? I mean I like I'm just curious. does your brain we've had we've had we've had multiple discussions, right? Like I remember on our first date You mentioned to me that like when you're not actively talking, like you have no thoughts in your head. speaker-2: Yeah, there's nothing going on up there. speaker-0: And I was like who speaker-2: There's no little voice. There's not multiple voices. I speaker-0: There's not multiple tabs. speaker-2: I have to go to the bathroom. My brain says, you I need to go pee. And then I walk to the bathroom Right. That's it. Like there's not there's not now again if I'm in a worry, right? I I may see things or have feelings. But even like five years ago, there was no feeling. It was just like I'm stuck up here on a loop of of Like of yeah, just like any kind of name that you could possibly think of is what I'm calling myself. and and yeah. That was my motivator. Yeah. And I can remember when I found like an actual therapist that helped. 'cause I had been in talk therapy for I don't know, four years. And like I just felt like it was I would go there. I would get to bitch about my life, right? And then I would leave more angry than what I got there. And and so that I I found this that she used mindfulness in therapy. And speaker-0: C B T. speaker-2: it was like slow down. We're just gonna stop. We're gonna stop talking, right? We're we're gonna stop thinking and we're gonna actually feel what what's going on in your body. And okay, this is wild stuff. So it like but not never, never before had I and like I I started doing meditation and I can remember one of the first times that I tried. I was sitting on the couch and my nose moved down like it was like melting like an ice cream. And I'm like I was so terrified. I was like, I was convinced that my nose was gone. And and like I was like, I'm gonna open my eye yeah, I'm gonna open my eyes and there's good my nose is not gonna be there. And and so like I kept on trying. Yeah, I know, it's wild, right? And so I would I I was like, Okay, I gotta open my eyes and I was like, No, no, I'm just gonna keep my eyes closed. I'm gonna stay still and then when I did open my eyes, spoiler alert, my nose was still there. But but that was that was like one of my first experiences with meditation where it like something speaker-0: Never I I try I've tried meditation off and on. It was not a mushroom like a speaker-2: And I was not on drugs. Wild stuff. yeah, I had never experienced anything like that. speaker-0: Well that I feel a little jealous about that because like my meditations are like legit thirty seconds. That's where my brain's at, maybe a minute. But even then I'm I there's the thoughts are still there. I'm just trying to just let them be without checking into them. But it's not like, yeah. That's bizarre. That's crazy. Aren't aren't humans fascinating? Yeah. speaker-1: Very fascinating. speaker-0: Alright, well now that we've gone down that rabbit hole. speaker-2: So like you fixed April, so now you're gonna you're gonna fix me. So here's here here's my thing. So when you were talking about joy and happiness and you know contentment and all of those positive feelings, and sometimes I can feel them, still they are unfamiliar to me. and because this is the natural experience that I have is as soon as I start to feel gratitude, especially gratitude, even saying the word gratitude, I can already feel it. Like the thoughts in my head, stop you like, okay, I'm gonna start name calling my you know, I'm gonna start thinking about the things that are on my to do list that I need to get done. Why are you grateful for anything? That that's kind of the where it goes. how how do I stop that? speaker-1: Sounds like gratitude is a pretty loaded word. I would say pick a different word. speaker-2: man, it is. Okay. speaker-1: unless gratitude, you're like, no, I really need to change my relationship with gratitude. Like if think functionally, right? Like there's so many words we can pick, and if gratitude's already a pretty loaded word for you, that is almost like the domino for like all the other things to come. Yeah. Then maybe pick a different word that has less to it. Wait. Yeah. And then you can go back to gratitude later, but It's more like fun function functionally, like what is why why gratitude? Like what are you trying to get or feel out of being more grateful? And that's what matters the most. The language itself doesn't matter as as much because we make meanings of everything. And some words just are a lot more loaded. Like in my work a lot, and I think probably a lot of business owners as well, the term productivity is a really, really loaded word. And I've met with a lot of people, and I'm sure it's the same with business owners, because to be productive, like you have to to build a business and to be successful, you gotta be productive. And it's I get curious about language constantly. Like RFT's the most amazing thing ever. And I still don't even can't even fully grasp everything that it says. But like, okay, what does productivity mean? And like what people say, they're like surprised. They're like, I didn't actually that doesn't even make sense. And I'm like, Yeah. and a lot of people, it's like, well, I need to be productive. And I'm like, okay, well, if you're moving towards productivity and you're sitting in front of your computer for 30 minutes doing absolutely nothing, just switching tabs and refreshing your email, is that a pr a productive behavior? Right. no. And I'm like, okay. But like taking a break, we put break in like not the same productive category. Functionally, a break actually can be productive. Right. So it's like reframing those behaviors to be like, actually, like I like I can't do anything right now. So I'm gonna take a break. That's actually gonna help me be more function more productive when I come back. But automatically we say, I can't take a break because I need to be productive. and it's more of that. Umloading that word because for a lot of people, it's like, I wasn't productive today, I gotta try tomorrow. it's no knock on that. Like I've been there as well. But like that's like in in the work as well. And for business owners, I'm sure it'd be helpful to to be able to like, okay, how long do I want to sit in this? And like how quickly, what do I have in my toolbox to like quickly like bounce back and go back to what I was doing? And maybe at the beginning. It's a nice measure, right? It's like maybe at the beginning it took me like two days. And then a month from now it took me like five hours. And it's like, you know what, that's like a really good. Like I'm making a lot of progress with that. But yeah, but productivity is. It's always a really interesting one, especially with people with ADHD, because as they grow up, they probably hear a lot of like people around them, like, you gotta be productive. You're not being productive. Like, what are you doing? Why are you doing nothing? And like, and we don't even need to attach the word productive to it. But the way that our brains work is as we get older, we they we just derive it. Like and now automatically all these experiences, all this language is now tied under this word productivity. And it is such an automatic thing when in reality, if we step back and we say, is this actually productive for me to sit here and just get stressed out about not doing anything? Actually, no, it's it's not productive. So and sometimes even just talking about it can help. I like to think of it as it's like sometimes these rules that we like subconsciously have, we all have them. It's kind of like a brick wall. And in sometimes talking about it like wriggles like one it's like kind of shakes it up a little bit. And now we have one brick that's able to come off. And what can get through in that one brick? It's like, okay, actually that actually makes a little bit sense. But going when it's happening in the moment, the first time you try it, it's gonna be hard. You might forget. And so it's all these cool things you could do with. speaker-0: Yes. See you're in my head again, Nicole. It is in in in that in kind of like going back to what I was saying earlier about that like taking those like slow walks or whatever. Or maybe you need two days to to check out from a certain project and then revisit it or whatever, right? Whatever that could look like. I have many, many, many examples. But But that that's part of it is that there are those like beliefs and those rules that I've set in not like childhood, you're just being lazy if you would try harder, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so I in my office, I have a comfy chair. And then I have like my office desk chair, right? And so I I told you this, like was a few months ago. I can't remember. I was like sitting in my comfy chair with my laptop or maybe my phone. I can't remember now. But I was working in my comfy chair. And I was getting stuff done. And Steven walked in and I was like, I'm working. I'm working. I'm like, I'm I found that I can still I can work in my chair. I can't remember what I said you. But in my mind, I, my body, when I heard him coming down the hall, wanted to jump into my office chair at my computer. there we go, the thumbs up again. But and like like open my computer. Like because I was like and I was like, Whoa. Okay. So the rule in my brain is that I'm being a good girl and doing my work and being productive if I'm sitting in my office chair with my fingers rested on my keyboard. moving, not even rested, moving. And I was like This is crazy, right? And so that that was a realization. I mean, I kind of I knew that there was bits and pieces around that, right? I knew there was this whole and I know that that's where I get stuck, right? Like because when as soon as my brain says you're not being productive, but I don't have the capacity for whatever reason in the moment to be to to walk to that next step of what my brain thinks is productive. Right. Then I freeze. Then I'm doing nothing. I'm fake working. I'll semi out of fake work for eight hours, right? Like, okay, I'm just gonna fake work. And then of course that accomplishes absolute nothing because I'm not even putting back into my system what it needs to then be that is very productive. The rest or the movement or the the joy or the fun or the water or the coffee or whatever it is that I could take maybe even thirty minutes or sometimes like five minutes and or Guess what? I could work outside on the porch in the swing. I could go on a walk. And that was the things I was learning. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go on this walk. Well, guess what happened on that walk? Like I didn't have the intention of being productive on my walk, but I would come back from that walk and I would have this amazing idea of how to fit this thing together and make this thing work. And I would sit down and then I would like sit down hyper focused at my my my computer or wherever for like two hours and like knock the thing out. That or f the the you know, I if I don't know if this is just an ADHD thing, but I'm pretty sure everyone with ADHD can relate to this. The thing that you put off and you put off and you put off and you procrastinate and you procrastinate. And then you finally get to the point where you sit down and you do it and it took you literally 30 seconds to complete. And then you're like, why couldn't I have done this six months ago? Why was this so hard to get there? Right. And so I'm finding that those little things are actually easier to do when I do the things that I have always thought aren't productive. I don't know. It's wild. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's so wild. It is it's so cool. They're I d I don't I just find it like so fascinating because everyone has their own meanings to things and even within ADHD and probably w outside as well, this feeling of I feel like I can't do it. And like the beauty of ACT, right, is that we can notice that feeling. Like things aren't always going to feel easy. Especially I work with some like I work with teenagers and college students and It's like, I don't feel like I want to do that. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not gonna feel like you want to do your math homework. Yeah. So you still like, let's find ways to do it, even if you chunk it, even if you do it for five minutes and go up and like come back. That's like, this isn't forever. And I feel like to all the to all the business owners as well, where something that really supports me is I like I know this, and it's something like a mantra that I have is that you're never gonna, I'm never gonna run out of choices. And so if I make one choice now that I maybe look back and be like, I probably could have done something else, or probably shouldn't have scrolled on Instagram for an hour. What could I like to me that's not to me those thoughts are not productive. And I just remind myself, I'm like, okay, cool. Like I'm never gonna run out of a choice. I'm gonna have another choice to make when I put my phone down. And it's it's just gonna keep keep going. And I can be constructive with the way that I think about things. I c like I've been on Instagram too much lately. Like I'm like scrolling for an hour. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to keep doing that. But I very easily could go into self-beat up and be like, God, I wasn't productive. I can't believe I did that. But in my experience, in the skills that we all have, like I know that that's not gonna support me in actually doing something tomorrow. And feeling fulfilled when I do it. Because then now I'm operating from a story of making up for lost time or like proving some like you know what mean? But now I'm like starting from scratch and it's like, okay, I actually did lot today. I'm never gonna run out choices. Not every choice. speaker-0: I like that. Because that's like scrolling. Cause I I mean I have definitely most of the time the function is like like escape for me, right? with scrolling. Because I've been I've there was a time where I was decided just to notice, right? Like when I'm scrolling, like just notice what's there. and one thing I noticed is that if I've been scrolling for more than I don't know, five ish minutes, I actually have like a tingly feeling. Like in my sinus area. Like I'm literally like numbing out, right? And and so and then it's like, okay, if I go into that dialogue of well in my internal like, you really need to put your phone down. Like you really need to be doing this other thing. Like, why are you so you still are scrolling? You're still sitting here scrolling. You haven't started yet? Like, you've been scrolling for thirty minutes. If you just put your phone down now, then you would still have time to do this thing that you need to get dumb or you know, and then but it won't be until like a really hard deadline. you know, like ha have to put my phone down to go pick my kid up from camp or I have a a call that like and then as soon as that very strict deadline hits and I'm like, put my phone down and go right to the next thing. And then if I sit with that a little later or think back to it, I'm like, well why was it so easy then? Right. And so I started just kind of like a trying to notice it, but then also analyze like what was I getting out of it. And, you know, and I was like, well, there was I and it was more than like I'm procrastinating, right? I think we also could easily be like, it's just procrastinating. But then what a lot of times what I realize is it's like I don't know the the next step is so big I'm not sure where where to start, right? Or it feels too hard or too complicated or whatever, right? And so it's like an avoidance to to to put that put that off so that I don't have to feel that uncomfortabless of not knowing. So I've I'm back to that. But last time I was in that spot, then when I would notice, I would just like put my phone down and I have a word search book that I had in multiple spots of my house of where I was typically sit and scroll. So I put my phone down and I pick up the word search book and like do that. and then from there I was able to then move on to like just taking the next step. Like what's the next step? Right. Is just sitting down, opening up the thing. getting the pin in hand. Like that's all the next step, right? And so like stepping it one at a time until I got was able to move through that. I was just telling my friend the other day, I was like, okay, I'm scrolling. And I shared that with her and she was like, I'm gonna do the same thing. And it worked a little differently for her. And she had to manipulate it to do what worked for her. But then recently I'm I was like, okay, I've been scrolling again and I'm stuck in my scroll and I know what worked, what helped last time, but it it's like I can't make that step. to do it again because it's like almost like my brain already knows that and it's like almost like I'm being like defiant against it. And so I don't know what are tricks, what what's the other thing that I can do to put my phone down. Are others business owners out there who do find themselves sitting there and scrolling because they're they feel stuck or, you know, of how to they take that next step. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I functionally like if it is procrastination. One thing that you one thing that you said that resonated in what I see in my in my work a lot is planning and like creating the first step isn't does not register to people as doing the work. Yeah. Doing the work and being productive is actually doing the task. Yeah. And I worked with a a bunch of my clients on like, no, actually, what if the first step in your work is planning? Yeah. because that's actually gonna get you started. Most people get them started. And just that like quick reframe of like, no, we can actually add that into like the work category. Like this is actually helping your brain plan and then look at what you're doing and then be able to choose what you're going to do next. And maybe sometimes certain tasks are they feel harder to complete, but they might be shorter to do. And what do we make up about that? And and at the end of the day. Everything is like giving yourself permission to just like do the thing that you feel like you need in that moment. And for me sometimes, I don't know, going back to the making the presentations, I can probably within an hour come up with a like a a first draft of what I want to talk to feel like. I could also at the end of that, I could take a break, maybe not do it for the rest of the day, or I could also like expect myself to have to do more of it. To like utilize my time or whatever. I know for myself that taking a break is probably what I would prefer to do because I just used a lot of that part of my brain. And so giving myself permission to do what I feel like I need in that moment. Because if I if I know for myself, if I expected myself to go into the next step, maybe it'll work. I don't know. I just don't want to do that. I want to, I want to take a break. But under like different circumstances, if I do have a deadline that I'm maybe I procrastinated too much, I may. choose to like take a break and then do something else after and I may still not enjoy it as much. but yeah, that's I kind of forget where your question was, but so that's speaker-0: No, it's all good because I think you said like the I think you said like the beautiful thing for today that sums up this conversation or gives is like giving yourself permission, you know, to feel in the moment, giving yourself permission to to make that choice in the moment to feel, right? Because I think that ultimately with everything that of everywhere we went today in this conversation, you know, no matter your circumstances, just the fact that you're a human, right? I think that gives such agency and such choice. And I I've often you know, talked with business owners who feel very stuck. i as long as you're when you're in that stuck feeling, you don't see a way out, you you're just you can't get out of the stuck. Like you you have to not you have to, that's not the right word, but like noticing that you have choice is what can help free you up a little bit to not feel stuck. You have choice. speaker-1: Make sure they give the quicksand metaphor. Yeah. speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah. So so I think this is like a great summary sh maybe not summary, but a great takeaway from this is that you do have choice, right? And and giving yourself permission to feel in the moment, give yourself the permission to make that choice and not Yeah, I don't know. speaker-2: I think like what you just said about planning, like that that kind of resonated with me. and I'm gonna try that the next time I procrastinate, right? I'm just sitting there and I'm like, Why can't you just do this stupid thing? It's like five steps. Okay, write out those five steps. And speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: and then well let's do step number one. Yeah. I I could imagine that could be helpful. I don't know if I've ever there are some days where like this is not something I normally do. where, you know, I I have a a bunch of tasks that I need to get done and I well write them out. That's the first thing I and then I just go through it one by one. And I do find that very helpful. So it would make sense that this would also it doesn't necessarily have to be the five emails, the two phone calls. It could be a more long term plan, right? yeah, yeah. It's a good idea. I like it. I'm fixed. speaker-1: Great, I will leave now. speaker-2: Ha ha. speaker-0: It's so funny. All right. Nicole, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for so much for just like speaker-2: Chime. speaker-0: following us down our random rabbit holes and weirdness. And I think it's really cool. I love having these conversations. So, Nicole, thank you so much. like I said, for for being here and this conversation was so much fun. for those of for our listeners out there who may Want you to fix them. Just kidding. who may want to have a conversation. I don't right. Who who wanna have a conversation to follow some of these things and talk to someone who who who gets it. Nicole is an ADHD coach and we will have her link in the show notes. But Nicole, where can they find you? speaker-1: Yeah, I am mostly on LinkedIn. So Nicole Scotts on there, you can message me. And then my business is Momentum ADHD coaching. So you also could Google that. speaker-0: Awesome. We'll have those. We'll have all that in the show notes. But thank you so very much for for for being willing just to like show up and go wherever the conversation took us. I really appreciate that. Thank you. all right. Well, to those of you listening, thank you so much for your time. We would love to hear from you. We would love to hear if you have a scruffy or a honey badger or nose speaker-2: Or if your nose melted off and the speaker-0: mumpted off your face. speaker-1: I'm interested about that one if other people have had that experience. speaker-0: Yeah, so cool. So if you have a story you want to share with us, please call our podcast hotline. We'd love to hear it. If you have questions, if you want to take this conversation and you know, if you want to like pick a part of this conversation and take it and a fruit, you know, take it in a s direction. You want us to talk about it, let us know. We'll be have more we'd love to talk more about these things. and then if you have any any general questions or you just want to share your story as a business owner, we would love to hear from you the podcast hotline that's in the show notes. And I just want to give you a reminder about our support group. We have a completely free, no strings attached support group we meet on Discord and for business owners and leaders and we're there to support each other and and like a safe place outside of socials. it's we've you know cultivated a pretty pretty safe place, I'd like to say, where people feel like they can really share. So we Come visit us there. We do a monthly live meeting together, but then we have lots of chats in between. and then we also have specific chats about our podcast each week there too. So if you don't want to call our hotline, you can come on there and you can tell us, you know, more about your questions and your stories. So the link to that will also be in the show notes. So thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next week. speaker-2: Yeah.