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The Importance of Tone in the LGBTQ Conversation | Guy Hammond · Real Life Theology Podcast

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Welcome back to the Real Life Theology Podcast.
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Today's episode features Guy Hammond
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talking about the importance of tone
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in the LGBTQ plus conversation.
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Hope you guys enjoy this episode.
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All right.
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Hello everybody.
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Welcome to our class here today.
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If we can get our first slide up there, that would be great.
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Thank you very much.
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Welcome everybody.
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My name is Guy Hammond.
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I am a pastor from Canada
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and also the executive director of an organization
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that I started several years ago
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called Strength in Weakness Ministries,
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an organization that has two primary purposes.
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The first one is to help Christians
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who live with unwanted same-sex attractions,
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give them strategies to help live faithful lives for Jesus,
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and also to educate the church Christians
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on how to share the good news of Jesus
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with their gay friends and neighbors.
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I felt like the church was doing a terrible job at that.
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There was a whole demographic of the world's population
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we were largely ignoring, not because we didn't care,
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but mostly because we didn't know what to say.
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And I thought if anybody should have a hope-filled,
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spirit-filled message to the LGBTQ community,
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it should be Jesus's church.
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And I just felt like the LGBTQ people in our lives
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and in our families, people at work, at school, whatnot,
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they deserve better than what the church has been offering.
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And the church deserves better.
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So I thought, you know, let's do something about it.
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So I started this ministry.
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You can certainly check out all our information
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at strengthinweakness.org.
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So our time is limited and we have a lot of stuff to cover,
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but we're gonna be talking about the importance of tone
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in the LGBT conversation.
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And so probably a good place for us to start
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is actually right here.
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These are what's called the clobber passages.
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LGBTQ people accuse the church of clobbering them
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over the head with these five passages.
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These are the five scriptures that say definitively
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that homosexuality is not representative
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of what God intended for human sexuality.
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Now, I could have thrown up the passage on there
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also in Genesis 19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
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I didn't put it up there, quite honestly.
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I don't think using the story of Sodom and Gomorrah
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in Genesis 19 is really fair.
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I don't think Sodom and Gomorrah, believe it or not,
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is really about homosexuality.
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Homosexuality in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah
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was a singular sin.
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Ezekiel 16, 49, and 50 makes it clear to us
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there was a lot of stuff going on in Sodom and Gomorrah
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as to why those two cities and three other cities
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of the plain were destroyed.
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So I don't think it's a fair thing to put up there
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as showing that it says homosexuality is a sin.
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But these five passages very clearly show us
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that homosexuality is not what God intended
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for human sexuality.
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In fact, you cannot find a positive scripture
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anywhere in the Bible that talks about homosexuality
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in a positive light.
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So certainly my understanding of the traditional
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Judeo-Christian sexual ethic is that human sexuality
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is to be reserved between that of a man and a woman
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bound together only in marriage.
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Anything outside of that is not representative
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of what God intended for human sexuality.
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Now, look at this next slide here.
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It shows us that even though we only get five scriptures,
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there's quite a bit we can actually learn.
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You may think, well, five scriptures, that's not very much.
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But look at, it's important to recognize
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these scriptures come from both the Old
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and the New Testaments.
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It shows us a consistency about how God felt about this
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over a 1,500 year span
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and from both the Old and the New Covenant.
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Also, it's important to recognize these scriptures
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were written by different authors, right?
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Paul and Moses to Hebrew and Greek cultures,
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highly different cultures.
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Why is that important?
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Well, it's important because people today will say,
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well, guy, come on, you can't trust what the Bible says
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on things like homosexuality and sexual ethics.
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I mean, this is 2022.
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I live in the Nashville area.
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My world is very different.
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My culture is very different.
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So it's not fair to use these scriptures
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to show how God would feel about sexual ethics today.
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However, the fact that these come from both Testaments
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were written 1,500 years apart,
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were written to highly different cultures
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shows us that this is not a cultural subject.
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There are some things that just supersede time and culture.
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In other words, how God felt about sexual ethics
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3,500 years ago when Moses wrote what he did
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and how God felt about sexual ethics 2,000 years ago
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when Paul did his writing
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is still the same how God feels
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about sexual ethics today in 2022.
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It wouldn't have changed.
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There are some things biblically
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that just supersede time and culture.
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And this is one of them.
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And how God feels, will feel about sexual ethics
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1,000 years from now, provided that COVID didn't,
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I don't know, monkey pox doesn't get us all,
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is still how God will feel about sexual ethics.
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Now, I know that's highly controversial.
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I know that's counter-cultural.
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I know the majority of people in our culture and society
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would say, we've lost our minds.
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I know there's a lot of questions here
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when it comes to this.
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Here's the thing.
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I don't have all the answers.
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You know, I would like to think
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that when it comes to this topic
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and some of the things we're about to discuss,
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things would be very clear and very black and white.
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And, you know, if I knew all the answers,
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you know, that would be really helpful.
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Next slide, please.
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But you know what?
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I don't have all the answers.
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The truth is, I myself have to be willing
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to live within the tension of uncertainty
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on the things that we're about to discuss.
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But here is something, next slide,
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something I think we could all rely on
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that I would like to think we're all going to agree on.
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Whether you agree with me
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on everything I'm about to say or not, I don't know.
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But here's something I think we can all agree on,
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and that is this.
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Every person needs to be treated
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with dignity, kindness, and respect.
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Regardless of their response to Jesus,
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regardless of how they feel about the Bible, Jesus, church,
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regardless of how they treat us,
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every person needs to be treated
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with dignity, kindness, and respect.
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And here's something I would like to think
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we're all gonna agree on that.
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Now, those five scriptures that I showed you,
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as I said, they're called the clobber passages.
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It's really unfortunate.
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Because the truth is, a lot of people
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who call themselves Christians
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have said and done things in the name of Jesus
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towards the LGBTQ community
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that Jesus would never say or do,
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and have used those five scriptures to clobber people.
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And what's so unfortunate about that
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is that God didn't put those passages
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on injunctions against homosexuality to clobber anybody.
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Those are not clobber passages.
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They're life preservers.
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God put those scriptures there for us to have access to
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so that we would understand how the architect
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and designer of our lives intended for us to live
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in regards to human sexuality.
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And he makes it clear that homosexuality
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is not a part of that picture.
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But it wasn't God's intention
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that we slam people over the head
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with our big, heavy Bibles about this,
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but rather that we offer this as a life preserver,
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letting people know that, as it says in John 10, 10,
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Jesus came to give life and give it to the full.
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And for us to be able to do that,
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all of us have to submit our sexuality to Jesus.
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Just not the homosexually attracted people,
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but the heterosexually attracted people.
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I mean, welcome to the party.
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In order for us to have life to the full,
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we have to submit our sexuality to Christ.
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And so I would like to say that
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the way we're using these passages today,
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and when we're talking about tone,
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is not that we're trying to clobber anybody,
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but rather recognize that these are actually scriptures
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that Jesus wants us to use
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to be able to offer life and hope to people.
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Let me tell you a little bit about who I am.
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That's me in the middle there.
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I don't know where all the hair went,
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but that's me when I was 21 years old.
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I started participating in homosexuality,
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believe it or not, at the tender age of 12.
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I don't know where it came from.
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I will tell you as a point of personal history
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that I was sexually molested by a man
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when I was eight years old, a police officer, actually.
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And how much of a role that would have played
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in me becoming attracted to the same gender?
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I'll never know for sure.
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Certainly didn't help.
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But I recognized around the age of 12
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that I was experiencing something that my friends weren't.
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I was noticing guys, my friends were noticing girls.
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I didn't even know what to call it at the time,
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but it was very confusing for me.
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I grew up going to a church,
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and I wanted to get perspective,
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but the only message I heard at the church I grew up in was
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homosexuals are wicked, evil, and going to hell.
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How's that for tone?
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That was the only message I heard
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in the church I grew up in.
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And so when I wanted perspective and help
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and some assistance on knowing how to deal with the fact
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that I was all of a sudden noticing guys,
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and I don't know where it came from,
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church was not the place to go.
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I would love to have been able to get help from home.
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My dad is a really nice guy, real nice man,
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until it came to this subject.
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And my dad was very homophobic,
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made it really clear how he felt about gay people.
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And I heard all the comments at home.
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So home was not a safe place to get perspective.
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And I spent a lot of nights as a teenager
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crying myself to sleep,
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unsure of what it was I had done
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to become to have this capability
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that everybody seemed to hate
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and it was so wicked and terrible.
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I'll also tell you, I never chose to be attracted to guys.
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I don't think anybody chooses what you're attracted to.
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Attractions are automatic and mostly involuntary.
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There's hundreds of contributing influences
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that help determine what you and I are attracted to.
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How much of it is nature?
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How much of it is nurture?
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I don't know, we're not really sure.
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But I do know this,
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nobody chooses what they're attracted to.
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Now, we are 100% responsible
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for what we do with our attractions
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that we're responsible for.
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But the attractions in and on themselves,
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that we have very little say over.
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Why do I mention that?
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Because today people will say,
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well, I feel like I was born this way.
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You know what?
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I know why they feel like they were born this way.
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It's because they didn't choose it.
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And so that should even also help us in tone.
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Anyway, by the time this picture was taken,
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I had given up on the idea of God, church and Bible,
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decided to move to Toronto, Canada's largest city,
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and started crossing a lot of dangerous lines.
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And I'd had a boyfriend for almost 10 years.
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His name was Carl.
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And by the time this picture was taken,
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when I went to Toronto,
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I just started having a lot of anonymous
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sexual encounters with men.
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And embarrassingly, the truth is, I don't know how many.
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It's in the hundreds,
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hundreds of times that I acted out with different men.
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By the time I was 24 years old, my life was a train wreck.
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And I knew I needed intervention.
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I knew I needed some kind of help.
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I didn't know where to go.
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And of course, God's perfect timing.
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He sent somebody who invited me to a church.
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And I was like, oh, church.
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I know all about church,
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how homophobic and bigoted all those people are.
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I do not wanna go to church.
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But this guy kept bugging me and I was like, all right,
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I'm gonna go to this guy's church and check it out.
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And I went and I loved it.
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It was not like the church I had grown up in.
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And I thought, you know, okay,
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maybe there's some hope here after all.
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But the thing is, is it took me two years.
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Two years of going to church,
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two years of building relationships with Christians,
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two years of me hearing the gospel,
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all the while still living my gay life.
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And thank goodness that church was kind and hospitable
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enough to let me keep going.
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They were very welcoming and kind.
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And after two years, I couldn't stand the hypocrisy anymore.
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I knew I had to choose one or the other.
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I was either gonna follow Jesus
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or I was gonna go live my gay life full out,
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but I had to pick one or the other.
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And somebody was able to prove to me with an open Bible,
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you know, how much better Jesus was.
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And I finally decided I wanted Jesus
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more than I wanted my homosexuality.
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And so I was baptized.
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That was on August 15th, 1987.
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So that was 35 years ago.
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And I can tell you, I have not,
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I have not participated in any kind of homosexual activity
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since my baptism three and a half decades ago.
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But here's the thing.
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I'm still attracted to guys.
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Hasn't even altered.
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I'm just as attracted to men today
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as the day I became a Christian 35 years ago.
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I don't know why God works the way he does.
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If I was God, I would do things very differently.
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But for whatever reason, God has said,
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guy, my grace is sufficient for you
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and my power is made perfect in weakness.
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And so I long ago gave up even the idea
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of trying to worry about it.
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I'm homosexually attracted, so what?
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I mean, one thing that I never thought that would happen
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is that I would get married.
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I thought if I'm gonna,
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if I'm going to want to enjoy intimacy in this life,
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moving forward as a follower of Jesus,
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I'm gonna have to do it single
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because how would I find a girl?
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I've never kissed a girl, never had a girlfriend.
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I'm not even interested in girls.
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So I guess I'll just do this thing on my own.
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And then, you know,
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there was a lovely lady in the church that I met
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and we just became tremendous friends.
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And I couldn't imagine living my life without her.
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Her name was Kathy.
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Kathy and I started dating
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and it's true, I wasn't sexually attracted to her.
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Next slide, please, wasn't attracted to her
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the way a heterosexually attracted man would be.
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But, you know, I thought,
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am I gonna have to miss out on, you know,
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this wonderful thing of relationship as a Christian
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just because I'm not attracted to women?
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I thought, no, I'm not gonna allow that
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to be an identifying marker of my life.
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Jesus is my Lord, he's my identity
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and I can absolutely love a woman.
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I may not be attracted to her physically,
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but there were so many things about Kathy I found attractive.
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It's true, I was deficient with physical attraction.
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But Kathy and I just decided, you know what,
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we're not gonna, again,
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allow that to be a defining part of our relationship.
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So we raised a family, four kids,
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and Kathy was just, you know, a great partner in life for me
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and just loved living with her
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and a tremendous mom to my kids.
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And she was just absolutely incredible.
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However, next slide, please, Kathy, there we are.
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That was taken in 2018.
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Kathy was diagnosed with stage four brain cancer
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and, you know, given just a couple months to live.
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And so she died very quickly.
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That picture was taken just a few months before she passed.
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And of course, I just, you know, miss her incredibly,
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but so grateful to God that he allowed me
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to be able to experience all that life has to offer
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with a beautiful Christian woman
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and so, you know, I love showing the picture of my family
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because I do not deserve this.
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A man who is having unbridled, crazy, wild sex
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with all these men and parked cars in public bathrooms.
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I lived my life with no boundaries,
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no restraint, no guardrails.
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Anything I wanted to do to make myself happy
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and feel fulfilled, that's what I went after in life.
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And to be able now to look back and see what God has done
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is, you know, truly a miracle
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and I'm incredibly grateful for that.
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So let me show you just my ministry, Strength and Weakness.
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Please check it out.
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Please go to our website.
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Tons of information on there.
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And the ministry has now grown
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to where we're helping thousands
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of homosexually attracted Christian men and women
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throughout the church
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and people who are dealing with trans issues
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in over 90 countries around the world,
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in three languages, English, Spanish, and Portuguese.
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And actually our biggest ministry, believe it or not,
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is our parents' ministry
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for parents who've got gay children.
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And so we're offering a lot of help there also.
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But, you know, when we're talking about tone,
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here's how I address this in the church
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in regards to our tone in the church
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and helping Christians who are homosexually attracted.
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It is just this.
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For the Christian, the opposite of homosexuality
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is not heterosexuality.
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For the Christian, the opposite of homosexuality
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is holiness.
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When people in the church come to me and say that,
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you know, they're same-sex attracted
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and they're dealing with homosexual issues
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and these kinds of things, I'm like, so what?
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Who cares?
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Listen, this should not be a big issue.
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I don't think God stays up late at night worrying
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about what any of us are attracted to.
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There's no scripture in the Bible
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that says you have to be heterosexually attracted.
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There's a lot of us who live outside
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of the heterosexual mainstream.
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We can't be Christians?
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That's ridiculous.
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So for the Christian, the opposite of homosexuality
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is not heterosexuality, it's holiness.
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I, a long time ago, gave up on the idea
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that somehow I have to be heterosexually attracted
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in order to be able to please God.
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I tried that for several years in my young Christian life,
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you know, where I was really praying
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and hoping that God would make me attracted to girls.
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Never happened.
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And now I tell Christians, who cares?
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Don't worry about what you're attracted to.
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Listen, what you need to do is honor God with your life,
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strive to live a holy life, trust in God's grace,
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mercy, and forgiveness like everybody else.
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Don't allow this to be something
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that's going to hold you back.
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A lot of people think it's homosexual attraction
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and the church, and it's this.
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And I'm like, no, it's not that at all.
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It's this.
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In fact, there is a place
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for homosexually attracted Christians in the church.
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We need these people in the church.
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The church is not complete without them.
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And so we need to create an environment in the church
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that is completely welcoming to people
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from the LGBTQ community
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so they can hear what it means to follow Jesus.
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There are other Guy Hammonds walking around out there.
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And so for the Christian, the opposite of homosexuality
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is not heterosexuality, it's holiness.
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We're not trying to change what anybody's attracted to.
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We're just trying to help them embrace
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their relationship with God.
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Now, here's the thing.
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For the gay community,
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I think there's a lot of misconceptions
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that we have about the LGBTQ community.
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I think we've wrongly stereotyped LGBTQ people.
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Now, fair enough, they've wrongly stereotyped us.
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I mean, they think that all Christians are homophobes
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and bigots and right-wing religious nutjobs
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and we can't be reasoned with and we hate everybody.
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There are some Christians who fit that stereotype,
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but you can't paint all of us with that same broad brush.
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My experience has been, as I've traveled around the world,
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I teach workshops and classes.
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That's what I spend all my time doing,
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traveling around, teaching in churches, faith-based groups,
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Christian colleges and universities.
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And my experience has been,
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as I've met Christians all over the world now,
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is that most Christians are not homophobic.
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It's just, they're uneducated.
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And what you don't understand, you pull back from.
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And you stereotype.
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And I think that's what's happened,
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but it's not that most Christians are homophobic.
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So they've wrongly stereotyped us.
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Mind you, we've wrongly stereotyped them.
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So most Christians assume that everybody who's gay
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is mean and angry and an activist
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and they just wanna fight and argue.
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They're unreasonable and they all wanna be
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on a gay pride parade float.
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And that's everybody in the LGBTQ community.
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That is not true at all.
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There are people in the LGBTQ community
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who fit that stereotype perfectly,
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but you cannot paint everybody with the same broad brush.
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The truth is, most gay people, the majority,
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just regular folks, right?
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They got moms and dads and brothers and sisters.
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They've got jobs to go to, exams to write, bills to pay.
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They wanna cut their grass, contribute to the community,
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wave at you when you get in your car to go off somewhere,
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and they wanna be left alone.
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That's most gay people.
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It would be wrong to assume that everybody
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in the gay community is mean and angry
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and wants to fight all the time.
19:39
So I think that helps us in our tone
19:41
when sharing the good news of Jesus.
19:43
The other thing that we often think
19:45
is that LGBTQ people are not open to the gospel.
19:48
That also is a mistake.
19:50
It is true.
19:51
It's a little bit tougher of a conversion, I think.
19:54
I've got, that's what I educate a lot of Christians on
19:58
and even how to study the Bible with LGBTQ people.
20:00
And when we're, just before we finish today,
20:01
I'll show you how you can access a video course
20:06
on how to share your faith with LGBTQ people
20:08
that will help you whatever your situation is in.
20:11
But it would be wrong to think that everybody who's gay
20:14
is not interested in learning about Jesus.
20:16
That can't be true.
20:18
There are other Guy Hammonds walking around out there,
20:20
a lot of people in the LGBTQ community
20:22
who have not given up on their spiritual moorings
20:25
and are hoping that they can find a church
20:27
that is a safe place for them to learn
20:29
about what it means to follow Jesus.
20:31
And so it would be wrong to assume that.
20:33
So we need to get rid of those stereotypes
20:37
and really help create a safe place in the church
20:40
for these people.
20:41
Now, a lot of times when it comes to sharing
20:44
the good news of Jesus, I think we only have two options.
20:47
The first one is repent or perish.
20:52
Okay, that is a strategy.
20:56
And it is true, if people don't repent, they will perish.
20:59
So that is an option available to you.
21:02
I don't know if it's the most strategic,
21:05
the best strategic one.
21:07
I don't know if that's the best one to use.
21:10
But then people are also like,
21:11
well, then the other one has to be complete capitulation,
21:15
which means I'm just gonna give in to everything.
21:17
And we don't wanna do that either.
21:21
But there is a third option
21:23
when it comes to sharing the good news of Jesus Christ.
21:26
And it's just this, hospitality.
21:30
You see, hospitality creates room, time, and space
21:35
for the gay person trying to come into the church
21:38
and learn about Jesus.
21:40
I'm not suggesting we don't acknowledge difference.
21:43
Let's acknowledge difference.
21:44
I'm not suggesting we try to hoodwink people
21:46
and let all the LGBT people coming into the church
21:50
allow them to think and assume
21:52
that we're a gay-affirming church
21:54
and then we're gonna hoodwink them
21:55
when we actually study the Bible with them.
21:57
I'm not suggesting that.
21:58
Let's acknowledge difference.
22:00
Let's teach biblical truth.
22:01
But let us also extend a welcome
22:05
while people are here to learn and question
22:07
and try to figure things out.
22:08
If you remember, it took me two years,
22:11
two years of going to church,
22:12
two years of hearing the gospel message
22:14
before my heart finally got soft enough
22:16
where I was willing to have Jesus in my life.
22:20
But it took two years.
22:21
My question to the church today is this.
22:24
Can your church be secure enough in its own faith
22:29
to allow your church to be a place
22:32
where people who are different than you
22:34
can come in and learn about what it means to follow Jesus?
22:38
I mean, I'll tell you about how I kind of see this going
22:41
in some churches.
22:44
Picture a church scene, it's a Sunday morning
22:46
and it's time of fellowship, the service has just ended
22:52
and I'm here with my wife.
22:54
Oh, that was a great service.
22:55
Yeah, it was great, honey.
22:57
Hey, honey, look, is that a gay couple?
23:02
Don't point.
23:02
Yeah, yep, they're gay.
23:05
Oh my goodness, a gay couple came to church today.
23:07
That is so cool.
23:08
I wish, should we go say hi?
23:10
I don't know, should we?
23:11
I think we should.
23:12
Okay, let's go.
23:13
Hey, how you doing?
23:15
Guy, Laura, how are you?
23:16
Nice to meet you.
23:17
Joe and Bob, Joe and Bob.
23:20
Hey, listen, thanks for coming to Harpeth.
23:23
Really glad to have you, Joe and Bob.
23:24
Thanks so much for coming.
23:25
Okay, well, I hope you guys come back again.
23:27
Oh, that was so cool, honey.
23:28
That gay couple came to church.
23:29
Wow, that's great.
23:30
Week number two.
23:31
Hey, honey, is that that gay?
23:32
Yeah, they're, yeah, that's them.
23:34
Should we go and say, go again?
23:37
I guess it's good they came back.
23:38
Okay.
23:39
Hey, Joe and Bob, nice to meet you guys.
23:40
Thanks for coming to Harpeth.
23:42
That's great.
23:42
Has anybody asked you guys to study the Bible yet?
23:44
Not yet.
23:45
Oh, well, I hope that happens soon.
23:46
Okay, well, nice to meet you guys.
23:47
Thank you very much.
23:48
Okay, week number three.
23:53
There's that gay couple again.
23:55
Yeah, are they still gay?
23:58
It looks like it.
23:59
Looks like they're still gay.
24:01
Huh.
24:03
All right, let's go back and say hi again.
24:05
Joe, Bob, Guy, Laura, remember?
24:07
Yeah, so nice to meet you guys.
24:09
Thanks for coming.
24:11
As in, yet, have you been in any Bible studies
24:14
here in the church yet?
24:14
We have a whole program.
24:15
And do you, have you done that?
24:16
Yeah, not yet.
24:17
Okay, well, thanks for coming.
24:19
Week number four.
24:23
They're back again.
24:24
Oh my goodness.
24:25
What the heck is going on in this church?
24:27
Is anybody gonna deal with this?
24:29
Has any, is anybody helping these people
24:31
become straight and become Christians?
24:33
Like, what are we doing in this church?
24:34
What are people in the community gonna start thinking?
24:36
Are people are gonna think
24:38
that we're a gay affirming church?
24:38
They're gonna start, what if they start bringing
24:40
their friends and we get a whole bunch
24:41
of gay people coming in here?
24:42
Then what are people gonna think?
24:43
And by the way, did you hear little Johnny last week
24:45
asking about who the gay people are?
24:47
So now the kids are asking.
24:48
So what kind of example is this
24:49
to our children in our kids program?
24:51
So what, what the heck is, you know,
24:54
Bobby Harrington in this church doing?
24:55
What are we paying him for, for pity sakes?
24:57
Why isn't somebody dealing with this?
24:58
I mean, it can get there really fast.
25:01
My question to the church is,
25:02
can you be secure enough in your own faith
25:04
to allow your church to be a place that is safe enough
25:07
to allow people who are different than you
25:09
to come and learn about what it means to follow Jesus?
25:11
Because sometimes the Holy Spirit
25:13
will move at a different pace
25:14
than what you would like him to.
25:16
Sometimes the Holy Spirit is gonna take months or years.
25:18
Can you live with that?
25:20
Will your church be a safe place?
25:22
Next slide, please.
25:23
Will your church be a safe place for this?
25:25
There is a difference between acceptance and approval.
25:27
A lot of times we think, well, if we just accept everybody,
25:31
that means we approve, but that's not the case at all.
25:34
You can accept people even though you don't approve
25:36
of how they're living their lives.
25:39
I mean, every single one of us in this room today
25:42
in the last 24 hours has said, thought, or done something
25:46
that Jesus would never approve of, but he does accept us all.
25:51
So there is a difference between acceptance and approval.
25:53
We can accept people even though we don't approve.
25:57
When we live like this, what we're saying is
25:58
we will not rush to judgment or make assumptions about you.
26:03
You are a welcome guest here, even though we disagree.
26:09
That's how it should be.
26:11
Would Guy Hammond, when he was living his gay life,
26:14
had been allowed to come into your church
26:16
for a period of years and allow time
26:18
for the Holy Spirit to do his thing?
26:20
Like, here's the thing.
26:22
If people get up and leave because they don't like
26:24
your stance on sexual ethics and they don't agree
26:27
with what you teach when it comes to LGBTQ issues,
26:32
then let them leave, but at least let them leave saying,
26:36
I'll tell you what, those people at that church at Harpeth,
26:38
those people were nuts, but wow, I gotta tell you this.
26:42
I have never met a more loving, kind,
26:45
and hospitable group of people than the people of that church.
26:47
I didn't like them, but I didn't like what they were teaching,
26:50
but boy, were those guys kind and hospitable.
26:52
Let them at least leave saying that.
26:56
So let us be radical, right?
26:59
Let's teach biblical truth.
27:02
I'm not suggesting we not do that.
27:04
Let us be honest with the answers that we have.
27:08
Let us be honest when we don't have an answer.
27:11
Let us be honest when the answer is not popular,
27:14
but let us radically serve and love and welcome anybody
27:17
to come and worship and learn about,
27:20
and be free to ask questions while they build relationship.
27:23
A lot of Christians are not very good
27:25
at building relationships with people they disagree with.
27:28
We're great at being in relationship with people
27:30
that we disagree with.
27:31
We're great at being in relationship
27:34
with people who agree with us.
27:35
That we can do really well, but you disagree with me?
27:38
Oh, we're not really good at that.
27:40
Christians have gotta be able to get along
27:41
with people who disagree with them,
27:42
and this is not an issue of conservatism,
27:46
and this is not an issue of liberalism.
27:49
It's not conservatism that says,
27:51
listen, you have to have it all figured out
27:53
in a matter of time based on our timeline,
27:57
or you're not welcome in this church anymore,
27:59
nor is it a stance, a posture of liberalism
28:03
that says you can live however you want.
28:05
No, it's just a posture that says,
28:07
listen, these are complex realities.
28:08
We understand that, and we are willing
28:11
to allow you to be here, and we wanna be kind
28:14
and hospitable and loving to you
28:16
while you try to figure things out.
28:18
It is that.
28:19
Now, I talked about being born again,
28:23
and again, we're talking about tone here,
28:26
and it's a very popular notion in our world today
28:30
that people are absolutely born gay or trans.
28:32
Here's the thing.
28:33
That has yet to be proven scientifically.
28:34
There is not a study out there, a genuine study,
28:38
that shows that people are born gay.
28:40
There is no study that shows definitively
28:42
that homosexuality is a genetically based trait.
28:45
If somebody comes to you and says,
28:46
no, there is a study, and I saw it,
28:48
it better come from somewhere other than yahoo.com,
28:50
because I'm telling you, we're not there yet.
28:55
And also, I'll say this.
28:57
My ability to be able to choose supersedes genetics.
29:01
So let's say, they come along,
29:05
and they do discover a gay gene.
29:07
Okay, I'm open to that idea,
29:09
but my ability to choose supersedes genetics.
29:13
I'm not an animal.
29:14
I have a brain.
29:16
I can decide how I wanna live morally.
29:20
I was at an event not too long ago in Chicago,
29:22
and when I got to this point, somebody yelled out,
29:24
oh yeah, what about the animal kingdom?
29:28
I was like, what about the animal kingdom?
29:30
They're like, well, they're involved in homosexuality.
29:32
That proves it's genetic.
29:33
I was like, that doesn't prove anything.
29:35
It just proves that they're animals.
29:37
Animals live on instinct.
29:38
There's no morality.
29:39
There's no decision making, but I'm not an animal.
29:41
I get to choose how I'm going to live my life,
29:44
how I'm gonna live my life.
29:45
And so, it's not fair to say that I don't get to choose.
29:51
I do get to choose.
29:52
So here's the thing.
29:53
When people today say, I was born this way,
29:55
I disagree with them
29:57
because we don't know that definitively yet.
30:00
However, when it comes to tone,
30:02
we don't wanna fight and argue that with people
30:05
in the LGBTQ world.
30:06
I'm not gonna make it a point of contention.
30:09
No, it's not proven.
30:11
There's no study yet that shows definitively
30:12
that homosexuality is a genetically based trait.
30:15
Listen, I understand why they feel
30:17
like they were born this way
30:18
because I feel like I was born this way.
30:21
It's all I've ever known,
30:23
at least since around 12 years old.
30:24
And trust me, if I could have figured out a way
30:26
to change this by now, I would have.
30:28
And yet, here I am, 35 years a Christian,
30:31
was married for 28 years, raised a family,
30:33
have been in full-time ministry,
30:36
try to live a holy, godly life.
30:38
Haven't done it perfectly, but I have done it faithfully.
30:41
And yet, here I am, still 100% attracted to men.
30:46
The sad truth is, I hope this doesn't sound too crude,
30:50
but you could put me in a room
30:52
with 20 of the most beautiful models in the world
30:57
who are women and have them undress in front of me,
30:59
and honestly, I would rather watch the hockey game.
31:01
Like, I just don't care, okay?
31:04
So I understand why people say I was born this way.
31:08
I get it because I feel like I was born this way.
31:12
I haven't been able to change it, it's like my skin color.
31:14
I can't change my skin color.
31:15
I can't change what I'm attracted to.
31:18
So when people say that, I understand.
31:21
I feel compassionate, I feel like, yeah, I know.
31:24
Man, that's hard.
31:25
Imagine having a capability that you feel so strongly,
31:29
and yet, here's the faith that says,
31:31
yeah, this is not compatible with what we teach,
31:34
and so you have to figure out how to live with that.
31:36
It's tough, man, it's tough.
31:38
So I have a lot of compassion for LGBTQ people
31:41
when they say I was born this way.
31:42
I know it's not true, and here's how I reason things.
31:44
Let's say I woke up, you know, when I said
31:46
my ability to be able to choose supersedes genetics.
31:49
Let's say I woke up tomorrow morning in Nashville,
31:53
and all of a sudden, I found girls attractive.
31:55
That would be pretty remarkable
31:57
because I've never found a girl attractive before.
32:00
But let's say I did.
32:03
Well, I don't know.
32:04
I'm not sure what difference that would make to my life
32:06
because as a follower of Jesus,
32:09
I'm not allowed to think anything I want,
32:11
do anything I want.
32:13
I have to live my life with boundaries and restraint.
32:15
Strive to live a holy life.
32:18
If I'm attracted to guys, okay,
32:22
I'm not allowed to think anything I want,
32:24
do anything I want.
32:25
I have to live my life with boundaries and restraint.
32:27
I have to strive to live a holy life.
32:29
So if I'm attracted to girls, I have to live a holy life.
32:33
If I'm attracted to guys, I have to live a holy life.
32:36
So what do I care what I'm attracted to?
32:38
I just, I'm going to try to live a holy life,
32:42
a holy life.
32:43
Now, sometimes people will make this argument,
32:49
and this has become very popular in our world today.
32:53
And my latest book that I've written,
32:55
I don't have it available here this weekend,
32:57
but if you're ever interested,
32:58
it's called Gay and Christian, you can get it at Amazon.
33:00
But I wrote a book on taking apart the top arguments
33:03
of pro-gay apologists and Bible revisionists
33:05
who say that you can be gay and a Christian.
33:07
We have a world today, right,
33:08
that says God created homosexuality,
33:11
he celebrates homosexuality.
33:13
The Bible has been mistranslated, taken out of context.
33:16
It's really talking about pedophilia and idol worship
33:19
and on and on and on.
33:20
There's all these qualifiers that people throw in there now.
33:23
And there was no such thing as the word homosexual
33:26
in the Bible before 1946.
33:27
And so it can't be what they're talking about.
33:29
And poor Moses and Paul, I mean,
33:31
those guys lived thousands of years ago,
33:32
different culture, different time.
33:33
I take apart all the top arguments
33:35
of gay affirming churches, Bible revisionists
33:38
who have changed all this stuff.
33:40
And I just take apart their arguments one by one
33:42
as to why they're wrong.
33:43
Gay and Christian, you can get it at Amazon.
33:46
But let me just speak about this here briefly
33:49
because I've heard this argument.
33:50
You know, listen, don't tell me that being gay is a sin
33:54
because here's the thing.
33:56
I go to church, I'm very serious about my faith,
33:59
I read my Bible, I pray, I contribute to my community,
34:02
I love Jesus, and I see God's blessings in my life.
34:06
And I see God working in my life.
34:08
When I worship God, I connect with God.
34:10
So don't be telling me that I can't be gay and a Christian
34:13
because if that was the case,
34:15
how could I be gay and it'd be sinful
34:17
and yet experience all these blessings from God?
34:19
How do we respond to that?
34:22
Well, in the proper tone,
34:25
you know, I think we have to start by admitting
34:29
that how we encounter God in our private lives
34:33
and determine whether we have his blessing and approval,
34:36
I mean, it's kind of subjective, right?
34:40
I mean, when we spend time in worship, it's true,
34:43
we can be overcome with emotion.
34:46
And when this occurs,
34:47
we may indeed be experiencing God's closeness.
34:51
It's also true though
34:52
that if we're involved in unrepentant sin,
34:56
he's withdrawn from us.
34:57
And what we're experiencing are only feelings and emotions
35:00
throwing ourselves into thinking
35:02
that we're experiencing the closeness of God.
35:04
Go ahead and read Hebrews 10, 26 to 31
35:06
for a Bible reference on that.
35:09
Hebrews 10, 26 to 31.
35:11
And get this, this one always rocks my world.
35:14
But according to 2 Corinthians 11 verse 14,
35:18
2 Corinthians 11, 14,
35:20
it's even feasible that we could be undergoing
35:23
a demonic presence and attribute those emotions
35:27
to being in the presence of God, 2 Corinthians 11, 14.
35:32
So because of its subjectiveness
35:35
and the fact that God is free to show himself
35:37
to whomever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants,
35:40
I quite frankly think it's futile
35:42
to try to challenge somebody's personal encounter
35:44
with the Lord.
35:46
Instead, we should challenge their conclusion that says,
35:49
because I love God and feel his presence,
35:53
this must mean that he approves of my homosexuality.
35:57
Listen, just because a person reads their Bible
36:00
and prays every day, is active member of their local church
36:04
and feels close to God,
36:05
doesn't mean that God approves of the lives they're living.
36:10
Here's the question we should be asking.
36:13
Does the presence of God equal the approval of God?
36:19
Does the presence of God equal the approval of God?
36:23
It does not.
36:25
Look, for instance, at the seven churches
36:28
addressed in the book of Revelation.
36:30
Of those seven, five of them were rebuked
36:32
because of unrepentant sin.
36:34
And over and over again, the Lord repeated that
36:37
in spite of the good things they'd accomplished,
36:39
nevertheless, he said, I have this against you.
36:43
And told them if they didn't repent,
36:44
they would be removed from God's presence.
36:47
Were these people Christians?
36:48
Yes.
36:50
Did they love?
36:51
Did Jesus love them?
36:52
Yes.
36:54
But these facts did not legitimize their sin.
36:57
These facts did not legitimize their sin.
36:59
The Lord was telling them that they were in sin
37:01
and calling them to repentance.
37:05
Or what about the story of Ananias and Sapphira?
37:08
A husband and wife team in Acts chapter five
37:09
who sold a piece of property.
37:11
And then when handing over the money to the apostles,
37:14
lied about the amount so they could keep some for themselves.
37:18
Their penalty for lying was death.
37:23
Did Jesus love Ananias and Sapphira?
37:26
Yes.
37:27
Would we be able to point to other areas
37:29
of the lives of Ananias and Sapphira
37:30
to find blessings in their lives?
37:32
I'm sure we probably could have.
37:34
Were Ananias and Sapphira Christians?
37:36
Evidently.
37:39
But those facts didn't legitimize their sin.
37:44
So when people reason that they must have God's approval
37:48
of their homosexuality because they're Christian,
37:50
love God and feel those closeness,
37:53
we can gently, respectfully, kindly remind them
37:59
that God's love does not equal God's approval.
38:05
You might indeed feel his closeness.
38:07
That doesn't mean he's approving
38:08
how you're living your life in other areas.
38:13
The word of God is what tells us what God approves of,
38:16
not your feelings and your emotions.
38:20
Another thing I'd like to throw in here is the parents.
38:24
Again, the conversation is on tone.
38:27
You know, when little Johnny comes home
38:28
and tells mommy and daddy that he's gay or trans,
38:34
I can imagine how difficult that would be
38:36
for a parent to hear that news.
38:40
It feels like a whole world has exploded
38:43
and a bomb has gone off in the middle of their home.
38:47
And that would be incredibly difficult.
38:50
But what should a parent or grandparent say
38:52
when little Johnny or little Susie comes home
38:54
to announce they're gay or trans?
38:56
What tone should we use in this kind of situation?
39:00
Well, I often tell people,
39:04
the first thing you should say
39:08
is not the first thing you're thinking.
39:11
I mean, your head is going, brr.
39:14
The first thing you should say,
39:15
and I think parents of young children
39:17
should even practice this
39:19
because you're gonna hear something someday.
39:20
It may not be LGBTQ, but you're gonna find out something
39:23
that your kid is doing that you're like, oh my gosh.
39:25
They're gonna come home and tell you something.
39:28
And so I tell parents, get ready.
39:30
But the first thing you should say is something like,
39:35
wow, son, daughter.
39:40
Can't believe how difficult that must have been
39:43
to come home and tell me that.
39:46
Listen, there isn't anything you could do
39:53
that would make me love you less.
39:55
I'm your dad.
39:57
I'm your mom.
39:58
And I'm sorry you're experiencing this right now.
40:02
And I'm here for you.
40:04
And we're gonna figure this thing out together.
40:05
So thank you for telling me.
40:06
I so appreciate it.
40:07
Now, here's the thing, little Johnny.
40:10
You've been thinking about this for a long time.
40:13
And I just found out 30 seconds ago.
40:17
So could you give mom or dad a break
40:19
and just give us like till tomorrow
40:22
and let us think about this.
40:23
And then tomorrow, let's get back together again.
40:26
And son or daughter, I wanna hear your story.
40:28
I wanna hear your experience.
40:29
I wanna know why you're thinking that.
40:31
I wanna know what's happened.
40:32
I wanna know what's propelling this in your heart
40:35
and your thinking right now.
40:37
Help us understand.
40:38
And we wanna keep talking.
40:40
But son, daughter, we love you.
40:42
Thank you.
40:42
Big hug, right?
40:44
Because what you wanna do, parent,
40:45
is you wanna keep the conversation going.
40:47
Now, you might be thinking, this can't be real.
40:50
This is not legitimate.
40:51
I'm not gonna legitimize this.
40:53
No, listen, don't worry about legitimizing.
40:57
What you need to do is prioritize it.
40:59
Is it real?
41:00
Is it not real?
41:01
I don't know, the kid's 13.
41:02
Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't.
41:04
We don't know yet.
41:06
But to him or to her, it's real.
41:08
So you gotta lean in and go, okay, to them, this is real.
41:13
So I'm going to prioritize this,
41:16
not worry about whether I'm legitimizing it or not,
41:19
and have these conversations with my kid
41:22
and bring Jesus into these conversations.
41:25
That's the tone we need to have.
41:26
Now, what about just people in general
41:29
when they disagree with us?
41:32
When I first started my ministry,
41:35
I started getting invited to speaking at different events.
41:40
Next slide, please.
41:41
And so one of the first places I went to,
41:46
I was invited to speak at the University of Southern Maine.
41:49
And anyway, when the gay rights group on campus
41:54
heard that I was coming to speak about Jesus and the Bible
41:57
and our relationship with all things LGBTQ,
42:02
the gay rights group on campus got very upset and angry
42:05
and were very intent on shutting it down.
42:10
So they went and they spoke to the president of the school
42:12
and they weren't going to shut it down.
42:13
And they were like, they have the right to talk about this.
42:16
And so they all came prepared to fight and argue.
42:19
And I'll never forget driving into the parking lot
42:23
that night, my wife was with me,
42:25
and all outside the place where this was being held,
42:30
there was all these protesters.
42:32
And they had signs and rainbows and banners and buttons,
42:34
and they were all ready for a fight.
42:36
And I was like, oh man,
42:40
all these people are here to protest against me.
42:42
And so I was like,
42:43
do we have to go through the front entrance?
42:45
Like, can't we just squeeze in through the back somewhere?
42:48
And anyway, what had happened was
42:52
when they found out they couldn't cancel it,
42:54
what they did was they printed up T-shirts
42:57
that said, don't listen to guy on it.
42:59
And they handed them out in mass to all these students.
43:02
So when I got in there to speak,
43:03
all these students had T-shirts on it
43:07
that said, don't listen to guy.
43:09
And anyway, and the church that night,
43:12
they were really smart in how they handled it.
43:16
When they realized there were protesters,
43:19
they ended up feeding them all.
43:20
And so somebody went to like Subway
43:23
and they got all these subs and drinks
43:25
and candy and chips and everything else.
43:27
And so everyone's yelling and screaming.
43:30
And then, but then the Christians started growing around
43:32
and handing out subs and chips and candy.
43:34
And it's kind of hard to yell and scream
43:35
and swear at somebody when you've got a sub in your mouth.
43:37
And so that really helped, you know?
43:40
Next slide, please.
43:41
But this is, you know what, what I've experienced
43:46
as I've traveled around the world
43:49
speaking on these complex issues.
43:50
I've had a lot of people angry and upset with me
43:53
and have said a lot of horrible things about me.
43:55
In fact, I can tell you
43:56
that some of the nastiest emails I've ever gotten
43:59
are from Christians who disagree
44:00
with how I think we should deal with these issues.
44:03
Let me tell you about another event that happened.
44:05
Rutgers University, I was invited to speak at Rutgers.
44:11
And then about a week before I got to this event,
44:18
the people who had invited me called and said,
44:21
hey, listen, there's a big ruckus
44:23
about the fact that you're coming.
44:25
And they've tried to get this event canceled.
44:27
And there's a bunch of gay rights groups
44:29
from the community who are coming.
44:30
They've promised to interrupt the event
44:32
and they could cause some serious trouble.
44:34
We think there's gonna be some local press there.
44:38
So I think we've gone ahead and decided
44:40
that we're gonna hire some protection,
44:42
have some police there to make sure that you're safe.
44:44
And it could be quite a ruckus evening.
44:47
Anyway, I'm sure it'll be fine and I'll see you next week.
44:49
I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know,
44:51
I'm a good Canadian, right?
44:52
I just wanna be loved by everybody.
44:53
I don't wanna fight and argue with anybody.
44:55
You know, it's not my goal to have everybody upset with me.
44:57
And yet here I am going to this event
44:58
and there's gonna be all these protesters
45:00
and they're gonna wanna fight, yell, and argue with me.
45:02
So anyway, I got to this thing
45:06
and the room was 200 seats.
45:07
It was just packed with protesters.
45:09
And, you know, so many protesters
45:11
that half of them were out in the hall.
45:13
The other 200 were in the room.
45:14
And so I had two talks that night.
45:16
So, you know, I was really surprised actually.
45:18
I did my first talk and everybody was kind of calm.
45:19
Everybody's watching, listening.
45:21
By the time I was getting around in my second talk,
45:24
things started getting,
45:25
people started yelling out and disagreeing with me.
45:27
And I was supposed to have a time for Q and A,
45:29
but I was like, oh man, this is getting really crazy.
45:32
So I thought I'm just gonna shut this thing down.
45:34
And then as I started to walk away from the microphone,
45:37
somebody yelled out, hey, we were told
45:41
that you'd be here until nine o'clock
45:43
and it's only 8.30 and I have a question.
45:46
And I was like, oh man, this is not good.
45:47
So I went back to the mic and all these hands went up.
45:50
People stood up, people started yelling and screaming
45:53
and the room got out of control.
45:55
And I was like, where's that police officer
45:56
they were talking about?
45:57
And I thought, I don't even know where to start here.
45:59
And so I just looked over and I didn't even know who it was.
46:03
I just saw this lady and I said, you, yeah, you, go ahead.
46:07
What do you wanna say?
46:08
And she stood up and she said in the top left there,
46:14
she said, you know, actually I'm the organizer
46:17
of the protest.
46:17
She goes, I'm the president of the LGBTQ community
46:21
who organized this tonight.
46:23
And she says, you know, the truth is,
46:25
you are not what we were expecting.
46:30
The truth is, I've never heard a Christian
46:35
talk about homosexuality in the Bible
46:37
the way you did tonight.
46:39
And she said, if this is what Christianity is,
46:43
this is what the whole world needs.
46:45
Now, I'm not telling you I wanna become a Christian
46:47
or join your church.
46:48
I'm just telling you, I've never heard
46:49
this perspective before.
46:51
So she said to all the other protesters in the room,
46:54
put your hands down, put your hands down.
46:56
We're not gonna bother this guy.
46:59
You know what, he's different.
47:00
We don't agree with him, but you know what?
47:02
He came in, he was kind, respectful,
47:03
and you know what, we're just not gonna,
47:05
we're not gonna give this guy a hard time.
47:08
And I felt so relieved.
47:09
I was like, oh, thank God, you know,
47:12
that we didn't need the police officers there
47:13
to get me out of there alive.
47:16
But here's the thing.
47:18
First of all, I want you to know that
47:21
I wanna give you permission to not have to be in a fight.
47:25
If somebody wants to fight and argue,
47:26
if they're gonna be unreasonable,
47:29
you can't reason with unreasonable people.
47:31
If people wanna fight, yell, and argue,
47:33
and just, you know, they're going like this,
47:35
I give you permission to not be in a fight.
47:37
Feel free to say, you know what,
47:39
I'd love to have an honest dialogue,
47:40
open Bible, sit down, let's talk.
47:42
I'd love to hear what you have to say.
47:43
You hear what I have to say, you know, on these issues.
47:47
But if it's just this, and you're mad and angry,
47:50
and you're not even willing to listen,
47:51
then I probably, you're not interested in that.
47:53
So thank you, and you just walk away.
47:54
I give you permission to not be in an argument, okay?
47:57
I wanna close with this.
47:58
I wanna introduce you to somebody here.
48:01
This is my son, Wyatt, in the middle.
48:03
Wyatt's 27 years old, lives in my community
48:05
north of Toronto.
48:06
On the right there is one of my best friends.
48:09
His name is Clyde.
48:11
Here's the thing.
48:13
Clyde is a gay man.
48:15
He's been with the same partner for about 28 years,
48:18
and Clyde is heavily involved in the gay community.
48:21
Clyde and I don't have anything in common.
48:24
He's an atheist.
48:25
He thinks I've lost my mind.
48:27
He thinks my story is ridiculous.
48:29
He thinks it's ridiculous that I don't try
48:31
to embrace homosexuality since I'm attracted to men.
48:34
Doesn't understand my world at all.
48:37
And the guy can't get through a sentence
48:43
without dropping a couple of F-bombs,
48:46
or we disagree on politics.
48:47
We disagree on everything,
48:49
and yet he's one of my best friends.
48:52
How did that happen?
48:53
Well, when my wife was dying of brain cancer,
48:58
my son Wyatt, in the middle there, came home to help out.
49:01
He had been going to university in Canada,
49:03
and he wanted to spend his final months with his mom,
49:06
and so he came to help.
49:08
And he also wanted to help out financially,
49:10
so he got a job at a local restaurant,
49:12
and Clyde is a chef.
49:14
And Clyde was his boss.
49:17
So when Clyde found out that Wyatt's mom was dying,
49:19
he was so moved by that,
49:20
he came over and visited our family.
49:22
He started making food, and bringing it over,
49:25
and getting to know us,
49:26
and he just became a great friend.
49:28
During the final few weeks of Kathy's life,
49:31
she was in a hospice facility.
49:33
And Clyde was like, I got this.
49:35
You guys just need to sit around the bed
49:38
and be with your dying wife and dying mother.
49:41
Don't worry about food.
49:42
I got it.
49:43
So Clyde started making all these meals,
49:45
and bringing it to the hospice facility,
49:47
and he would feed the doctors, the nurses,
49:49
all the Christians who came to visit.
49:50
Everybody loved Clyde.
49:53
And he took care of our family.
49:55
Did I care that he was gay?
49:57
Did I care?
49:58
No, listen, what was my tone gonna be with Clyde?
50:01
Nothing but love, and appreciation.
50:06
A movie was made about my life called Finding Guy.
50:10
We used churches as movie theaters for a couple of years,
50:13
you can watch it on YouTube
50:14
if you're ever interested, Finding Guy.
50:16
But the movie makers thought it would be interesting
50:20
to do a little interview between Clyde and myself.
50:23
So this is just about two minutes and then we're done.
50:26
I thought I'd share a little bit of this video
50:29
because this is what I'm talking about,
50:32
the gift of hospitality, how our tone matters,
50:36
how we can accept even though we don't approve,
50:39
how we can be kind, loving, and hospitable with people
50:42
even when they're living lives that we don't agree with.
50:45
How is it possible that a Christian man
50:47
who believes that homosexuality is sinful
50:49
and a man who's living an active gay life
50:51
can be best friends?
50:53
This is how.
50:54
Go ahead and play that, please.
50:59
Okay, so we're sitting here with Guy Hammond,
51:00
the CEO of Strength and Weakness Ministries,
51:02
an international ministry that helps
51:04
same-sex attracted Christians lead lives for Jesus.
51:08
And Clyde, who has lived an active gay lifestyle
51:12
with his partner now for 26 years.
51:14
Okay, so I'm just gonna throw out this statement, okay?
51:17
Yeah.
51:18
A Christian and a gay man
51:20
fundamentally should not be friends.
51:23
Says who?
51:24
A gay man and a Christian can't be friends?
51:25
That's ridiculous.
51:26
I mean, look at this.
51:27
Wait, who said, who, yeah.
51:28
Yeah, who's gonna tell us that we can't be friends?
51:30
Nobody, because I'll throw a punch on them.
51:32
You'll throw a punch on them?
51:33
Yeah, I will.
51:34
Oh my gosh, I probably won't throw a punch on them.
51:39
Are we gonna be that shallow?
51:41
Are we gonna be, you know,
51:42
yeah, are we gonna be that shallow as a human being
51:44
that we're gonna allow this,
51:46
whether somebody's gay or not or a Christian or not,
51:47
to dictate whether we can be friends?
51:49
That's ridiculous.
51:50
Well, for me, the friendship outweighs any of the natives.
51:53
Like, I can understand why
51:56
Christians may have an outlook on gay people.
52:01
I don't wanna go see a bunch of out on a gay pride parade.
52:06
That's not what it's about.
52:08
So it's no wonder they get upset.
52:12
It upsets me as a gay male.
52:13
A lot of Christians assume that everyone who's gay
52:17
is an activist.
52:18
Yeah.
52:19
And, you know, that they wanna fight and argue
52:21
and be on a float in a parade.
52:23
But the truth is, most gay people are just regular folks.
52:26
They wanna.
52:27
I'm at home.
52:28
I'm a homemaker.
52:29
I work.
52:31
I'm a human being.
52:32
We are all human beings.
52:34
Yes, you may not agree with my lifestyle.
52:37
What really happened that made us bond
52:39
was that my wife, Kathy, became very ill.
52:41
And Clyde heard about this,
52:43
and out of the goodness of his heart,
52:45
this guy started making meals
52:47
and driving them out to this hospice facility
52:50
to feed my family and I
52:51
as we sat around my wife's deathbed.
52:54
And he just so endeared himself to me and my family.
52:58
And I would try to remind people that, you know, Christians,
53:01
that this is what Jesus was known for,
53:04
being friends of and getting along with people
53:06
with whom he disagreed.
53:08
And so this is living, breathing proof
53:10
that we can disagree, but still accept each other
53:14
and be kind to each other.
53:14
We can agree to disagree.
53:16
Yeah, that's right.
53:17
And we're gonna get along.
53:18
Yeah.
53:18
So Clyde, you've seen the movie, Finding Guy,
53:20
and you're familiar with Guy's teachings
53:22
and his stance on things.
53:24
Who do you think should watch this movie?
53:27
Oh, I think Christians, gay, straight, trans,
53:33
anybody should watch this movie.
53:35
It, as a gay male, it was really an eye opener for me.
53:39
I learned things.
53:40
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not a religious person
53:44
but to see my friend have that much faith in his God
53:50
to wanna live that lifestyle is very powerful.
53:55
I'm not there yet.
53:56
Maybe one day I will be there.
53:58
Right now, I love my life.
54:00
26 years, same partner, but it could change.
54:05
I even cried at the end of this movie.
54:07
I won't give it away,
54:08
but it was very powerful at the ending.
54:12
And if you watch the movie, you'll know what I mean.
54:16
Matters, tone matters.
54:18
And I think if you use the kind of tone we discussed today
54:21
with people in the LGBTQ community,
54:23
it'll go a long way in helping the other Guy Hammonds
54:25
over there who are in your community
54:27
to come to faith and follow Jesus.
54:29
Thank you, everybody.
54:30
Amen.
54:31
Go on fire.
54:36
Thank you for listening to this episode
54:37
on The Real Life Theology Podcast.
54:40
For more great content from Renew.org,
54:43
check us out at Renew.org.
54:46
Hope to see you guys on the next episode.