Latest / Pirates Only / Tectonic and the Race to Post-Quantum Security

Transcript

Tectonic and the Race to Post-Quantum Security · Pirates Only

• Andrew Couillard: Welcome back to Pirates Only, the Black Flag podcast from Harpoon Ventures. I'm Andrew Couillard, and today's guest is the clearest example of what we have to offer at Black Flag. He came into our first cohort back in July 2025 as a crypto company building quantum resistant blockchain. Only six weeks later, he asked us to change his tagline on the Black Flag website to quantum secure defense tech. So within a year, he had a research agreement with NIST, a Navy contract with one of the longest Sibber freezes we've had in the program's history, DARPA ordable status, language. In the NDA, and also he's now gearing up for an incredible opportunity with the Prime. He calls it the Tectonic Shift, but today we're gonna unpack that here in person. Mike Berman is the co-founder and CEO of Tectonic, which builds post-quantum cryptography for national security systems, key management, crypto agility as a service, and secure communications to let the government rip out RSA once and never have to rip and replace it again. Mike is the three-time founder and one of the best sales guys I've ever met. This guy can sell ice to Eskimos. So today we're gonna unpack a lot of his journey here at Tectonic and talk about what it's like to not only pivot and reorient your entire company, but to also work with the government itself. So Mike, let's open it up with when you applied to Black Flag, you were building the first quantum resistant blockchain to protect really a multi-trillion dollar industry, but today you're a defense tech company. So let's talk about where did Tectonic start and what you thought about Tectonic when you first started it out. Mike: Yeah, so very nice to be here and good to see you, Andrew. So We'll just kind of take a step back to maybe frame this out for folks. So, a Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: lot of people know that quantum computers are coming. Between now and a more powerful quantum computer, the whole world needs to migrate to stronger encryption. We don't know if there's going to be an AI attack that breaks the encryption that we use, or a quantum computer from an adversary that comes along and breaks the encryption that we use. But all of the academics agree that at some point we need to migrate to stronger encryption. So that's really what we're talking about. So we set off to be a blockchain company first because blockchain uses an encryption called elliptic curve cryptography, ECDSA. And blockchain has some very unique challenges in moving to stronger encryption because of the nature of a decentralized blockchain. So it's not as easy for a blockchain company or a chain like Ethereum or Bitcoin to move over. So they have to do something called a hard fork. You know, you can't just like hit hit something in the background and hit refresh refresh and it's using a stronger encryption. So because of the team that we had you know going into the the first version of tectonic and because of the unique challenges within blockchain, because it again it uses elliptic curve cryptography as opposed to RSA, which is what the internet uses, we just decided Andrew Couillard: I guess for the non-technical phones, like what's the biggest difference between those two encryption? Yeah. Mike: There are just two different types of encryption. so if there was going to be a silver bullet for an encryption, it would be elliptic curve cryptography. It's actually newer, and that's why blockchain Andrew Couillard: Okay. Mike: decided to use it. So it's very small and very performant. RSA has been around for decades. Either way, you have two encryptions that have been around for decades. They've been battle tested. people use them, like engineers use them, you know, every day. Like this video right now is being encrypted. Everything you do on the internet. That or anytime you're exchanging data, there's data transfer, it's always going to be encrypted. So yeah, so we we just kind of set out and we said, let's go solve this for the blockchain. And then started building products for the blockchain. And then we met Harpoon. So once we met Harpoon, we realized that there was this whole new space to sell into, and that's US government slash department of war. And somebody from your team was basically like, hey, why don't you sell? to the Navy. I had sold to Fortune 500 companies before, you know, a couple decades in sales I used to work for Salesforce, selling to salespeople by the seashore. So yeah, it's just like let's Andrew Couillard: Yeah yeah, that's a tongue twister, yeah. Mike: let's open the aperture. you know, let's let's see what selling into the US government's all about. And then yeah, we we kind of took off. Andrew Couillard: But Mike, I vividly remember it was actually on our DARPA call. There was a massive aha moment, or at least you felt like there was. So what what happened in that call and why did you think like, there is an opportunity here? Mike: Yeah, yeah, great question. So when we first started to dip our toe into US government/slash DOW sales. We were learning when we were in Black Flag. So you know, being in Black Flag was unique for me because I didn't really have any expectations because we were coming from totally different industries. And I remember specifically a meeting that we had where DARPA came and spoke. So when I had heard of DARPA in the past, coming from Silicon Valley and being more a of a generalist in technology, I thought of self-driving cars, I thought of the internet, and Andrew Couillard: GPS, things like that. Yeah, yeah. Mike: Yeah, yeah. It's you know, it they just seem like this exclusive group that was very secretive and you couldn't really get a hold of. And then all of a sudden, you know, I was speaking with someone from DARPA who's now a friend, and this like little light bulb went off in my head where the these groups within the government are folks that you can actually get a hold of, you can actually have conversations, and they actually need technology, right? So I had never thought about any sales that I had done or technology that I'd built leading up to that point, serving the government. so because of Black Flag, we got exposure to a lot of different folks within the government. And the more folks that I met, the more I developed conviction that we could sell into the US government and be successful as a company. Andrew Couillard: Yeah, I love that man. And I think it's encouraging for the founders in the audience that maybe don't come from the industry, they've never served in either some public service capacity, like it they are accessible. I think for a long time they just didn't really market well their problems, but hopefully, you know, we're helping do a better job, just at least match the capability, the technology to the person that needs it, right? But you know, for a while you Yeah. Yeah. Mike: Yeah, would say there's there's a sorry real quick, there's a there's a a learning curve that you have to go through. you know you have to learn about a bunch of acronyms. Andrew Couillard: Hundred percent. It's a new vocabulary, right? Yeah. Mike: You you kind of have to learn how the apparatus works and how it moves. but you know, I I think one thing that's really cool about it is for a lot of folks at Tectonic. it it's nice to be working on something that's very mission oriented. So we have a contract with the Navy and when we speak with folks from the Navy, there you know, there's like a different cadence to it. There's But there's a there's a different intensity to it. a lot of times when you look at certain products, you can look at it in terms of protecting the warfighter, which is something for everyone to get, you know, around and and take seriously. So yeah, I I would say that moving from selling to Fortune 500 companies to the US government, it's not something that you do overnight. a lot of it is based out of DC. So I previously hadn't spent too much time in DC. Now I spend half my time in DC. Andrew Couillard: Now you got a two bedroom in D C, right? You need to, right? Yeah. Mike: But yeah, yeah, I would say Black Flag was incredibly helpful in spoon feeding us. Like here's what it's like to sell into the government. Here's what the buyers are like. here's how people look at the warfighter and the mission. And yeah, it totally changed the the direction of our company. Andrew Couillard: Well thank And I'm wildly impressed just with your ability to learn as well and how quickly you learn that learning curve. So what from enterprise sales actually translates to selling into the government? What is like totally different, not even close? Mike: Yeah, so I'd say the the thing that That is consistent with all selling that I've ever done is executive alignment. So you need to get really high within organizations. if you're not high, then you know the deal's usually not gonna get done, right? It's gonna fall apart for Andrew Couillard: Right. Mike: some reason. It's usually easy to find a champion, so someone who's mid-level who wants your technology or services. eventually they need to go to their bosses and get a go-ahead. So, as a salesperson, it's much better to do that. so it's much better to Go meet the CFO, meet the CTO, meet the CIO, understand their legal process, understand their procurement process. So you can manage that cycle, and so you could sell, as opposed to trying to arm someone who's mid-level who then has to go regurgitate your value prop to the people that are higher above. So, you know, you kind of have to skip that level. So I'd say, in terms of selling, executive alignment is always going to be important. There's something called Bant, so it's budget. Access to power, which is what we just talked about, need and timing. So those are always going to hold true. So you know the government budgets a little bit more public, right? And you could do lobbying to go Andrew Couillard: yeah. Mike: out and try to find dollars, and it's a little bit more of a different world, but there are big budgets in the US government, but there's a lot of people going after those budgets, and there's a lot of priorities. The access to power piece has been quite interesting. So I'm not going to name names, but we've met quite a few CTOs and CIOs or Across the Department of War, and they're all awesome and they're all fairly accessible, way more accessible than I than I thought they would be. They're people that you could go to an event, walk up to them, shake their hands. yeah, just like great people, very mission oriented people. timing is always gonna be big, so you just have to watch Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: like what's important within the US government, and timelines move around within the US government. one thing that happened to us that's great in terms of timing is there was an executive order. That came out on June 22nd, mandating that everyone moves Andrew Couillard: I know, couldn't have been better timing for that, yeah. Mike: to post-quantum cryptography. So, you know, you have to use timing to your advantage. and then need is always going to be there, right? Like if if someone really needs your product and service, those deals close. if someone doesn't have a need or and the need isn't tied to a bigger mission, then those deals fall apart. Andrew Couillard: You know, and for the founders in the audience, how do you get that executive alignment if you don't necessarily know who the stakeholders are yet? Like I think you did a great job mapping that out. the frozen middle's one thing you wanna avoid. I'm a huge believer in that, but like how d how can founders tangibly find that executive alignment when they're just starting out? Mike: I maybe it's a two-pronged answer. So I think that in any organization, unless you have Wild product market fit. You need a combination of the technologists and the salespeople. So, you know, I've I've seen the best salespeople at a company like Salesforce, and your top five percent of the salespeople at a company like Salesforce, they might be closing like 70% of all the deals, and they just work at you know a different pace and level of efficiency, and the intuition that really, really great world-class salespeople have is invaluable. So it'd be Really difficult to take someone who's never sold before. Like you can't have them read a book. You know, you can't sit them down. You can't advise them and say, here's how to run Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: a good sales cycle. So, you know, I think in terms of engineers, we can always see that there are 10x engineers and there's world-class engineers, and you could see that archetype of someone who went to MIT or Stanford, worked at Meta, led a team. Like, we kind of know what that looks like, but not that many folks know what that looks like in terms. In terms of sales, and you you need the same kind of pedigree, you need the same kind of archetype for someone to run that side. So I think every company that's selling into the US government and Department of War, they need great technologists and great salespeople. You know, otherwise, like I think founders are always gonna be great at selling because they understand the product better than anyone else. so you know, founder led sales is always gonna be great. And when in doubt, like go higher and when in doubt, have more connectivity. So if you know the chief growth officer, like you still need to know the president. You still need to know the CFO. So I would just Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: go through every single executive and try to get in front of each and every one of them. Andrew Couillard: I think it's so well said. You could write a master class on an an on this topic in general. you know, going back to the tectonic story, so for a while you ran two tracks where you were gonna do a token launch on one side and you had the navy on the other, but then you decided to go all in on the government aspect of the business. So what gave you the conviction to go all in on selling them to the government? Mike: So again, to kind of take one step back and to frame this out for you guys. So when we first started, a lot of academics that we would meet with, they would say that maybe we'll see a quantum attack by 2035. Some of the academics really early on were eye rolling. They're like, quantum computers are never gonna be able to break encryption, like this is pseudoscience. So in the past couple years, The timeline that most academics agree upon for when we might see a quantum attack has gone from like 2035 to 2030. There's a guy named Scott Aronson who's one of the godfathers of quantum computing. He says we might see a quantum attack by 2028. So because the time between now and a quantum computer from an adversary that can pose a threat to RSA encryption, because that that time is the timeline shrinking, there's a lot of people. In the US government that are sounding the alarms and they're sounding the doldrums. So because of that signal, it was pretty obvious for us to pivot. And the TAM of the US government is massive. So if you think of like what's encrypted, it's anything on the internet, it's any data, it's our nuclear codes, it's our power grid information. Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Yeah, so can you can you actually explain that problem? Yeah, exactly. Like what what is so bad about hacking RSA? I think a lot of people in the audience will get it, but just for anybody who hasn't thought about the problem or really heard the problem, what's at risk when Mike: Yeah. Andrew Couillard: that hack hac happens? Mike: Yeah, I I mean I don't mean to terrify everyone, but if you look at what what is behind encryption, just a few of Like nuclear codes are encrypted. Power grids are encrypted. All of our financial information is encrypted. So if folks have shiny 401ks, there is a world where if those, you know, if the encryption that protects our financial industry gets compromised, then maybe they all go to zero, right? So there's a bunch of different Terrifying scenarios to think about if someone breaks RSA. It's a s another simple way to think about it is right now everything is under lock and key. how comfortable are we that we give an adversary the key to unlock everything? So yeah, it's it's a pretty large existential threat. It's harder, it's hard for me, and I'm biased to think of larger existential threats than giving an adversary a key to everything that we have that's locked. Andrew Couillard: Exactly. Like yeah, so if they have this master key, how would we even resolve that? Right? Like how could we even fix it from there? Or do we need to get this post quantum cryptography right right now or else there is a catastrophic scenario that will play out? Mike: Yeah, so great segue. So I I can explain what we do, right? So Everyone's been using RSA for decades. They need to move from RSA to stronger encryption. That stronger encryption that should be able to thwart off attack from a quantum computer is called PQC, which stands for post-quantum cryptography, which means post-quantum encryption. So it's all kind of confusing, but the solution is called PQC. And so far, NIST has only standardized three algorithms that are post-quantum. So you can pick A, B, or C. They're gonna be rolling out waves of more encryptions that pass. So right now you can use three. Maybe in a year you can use 15. Maybe in three years you can use 20. So the way Tectonic works is you can implement Tectonic one time, and based on your use case, we're gonna pick the best possible encryption for you and then add some encryption. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Couillard: So it gives the user the ability to choose algorithm A, B, or C, depending on the use case or what they need. Okay. Mike: Exactly. If you have high latency, low latency, high bandwidth, low bandwidth, on-prem, edge, etc., you might want to use a different encryption that's available right now. Conversely, if one of the encryptions gets broken, you can just pull it out of the inventory of encryptions that are available to you. So we think of it as a set and forget it encryption. one metaphor could be single sign-on. So if you sign on once with Google, then it's going to be able to connect to you to a whole bunch of different other websites. websites without having the need to sign in again. Another way to think about it is the nozzle at the end of the hose. So you can just, you know, swap off a sprinkler head and put on a new sprinkler head if you have that nozzle in place. So it's it's future proofing. And if you don't do something like that, you could be in a scenario where you rip out RSA encryption, which again everyone uses, you pick A, B, or C, because there's only been three new signatures that are post quantum, you know, that that should be able to withstand the quantum attacks. What if you pick the wrong one, right? So what if Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: you pick A and then it gets broken? Now you gotta rip and replace and you're vulnerable and you have a whole bunch of time down. or if a better one comes out, then you know you rip and replace for A and then one year later a better you know solution comes, now you gotta rip and replace again. So a lot of this is like do it once, do it right. so Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: we don't actually build the encryption. That always gets standardized by NIST. For anyone listening, NIST is the National Institute of Standards and Technologies. They're the governing body for, you know, what is a credible post-quantum encryption or not. So so yeah, that's it's it's kind of how we think about it, right? It's like do it once, do it right, and then give yourself flexibility moving forwards. Andrew Couillard: So yeah, so in a way, does this turn into almost a perplexity, but for post quantum encryption where a user can go in and select different models depending on the prompt or whatever the use case, you're effectively gonna do the same for PQC, is that right? Mike: 100%. Yeah, and it happens real time and it happens in the background and people will have some flexibility. The other thing that you can do is you can run hybrid. So hybrid is not a popular approach within the Department of War. But you know, it's it's something that folks can run maybe on the commercial side. So you can keep using RSA encryption. And then once a quantum attack, you know, either happens or is much more near, you can just flip a light switch and migrate over to post-quantum encryption. So it's it it would be up to Andrew Couillard: That's great. Yeah. And again, that will protect people for when the quantum attack happens or if, depending on the world in which you believe in. But what about this concept about harvest now decrypt later? Why is there such an urgency to solve this problem now because of that harvest now decrypt later phenomenon? Mike: Yeah, so the simplest way to think about harvest now decrypt later is the data is out there. So an adversary can be sucking up data and that data is encrypted and then they store that data away. Once they have access to a powerful enough quantum computer that can break the encryption, then they can decrypt that data. So If you think of all the comms that we have, you know, and people who are using signal or or whatever tool they want, if an adversary can can point towards that data and suck up that data and store it away, then you better be comfortable with that whatever comms you know being released at a later point. So that's harvest now to cop later and it just basically means that the attack is already underway. So the people are siphoning the data, you know. adversary Yeah. Andrew Couillard: Yeah. So the attack is already underway then, right? Because like people are siphoning data to then decrypt it later, right? Mike: Yeah, so the only way to get to to you know to to have a remedy for that is to move to post quantum now. So, you know, people should have moved to post quantum, you know, years ago before HarvestNow Decrypt later happened. So it's it's just you know one of the many complexities in this industry. Andrew Couillard: You know, it felt like that, at least for the tectonic journey, the NIST was the first domino. Then you're able to get, you know, assigned or cooperative research and development agreement, and then you were in this custortium. I think it was with JP Morgan, Google, HP, IBM, like what do all these leading experts think about post quantum cryptography? And especially Mike: Yeah. Andrew Couillard: someone like JP Morgan, right? Like this is literally will have a material risk their entire business. Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah, great question. So Harpoon was very helpful with us when we first started working with Harpoon. I didn't know what what NIST stood for, nor did I know what a Crater was. So when they said go get a Krato at NIST, I just smiled and nodded. And then through Harpoon's help, yeah, through Harpoon's Andrew Couillard: You figured it out. Yeah, yeah. Mike: help, we were able to get that done. So there's something called the post-quantum consortium. Members include Amazon, Google, HP, IBM, Palo Alto Networks. really big companies, you know, Fortune one thousand companies, and we're very Honored to be in that group. So we meet twice a week and we talk about what this migration looks like. And again, the migration is simple. How do you move from RSA encryption, which everyone uses, to encryption that's post-quantum, which is called PQC? So, you know, we're we're watching, you know, as everyone does it. And our approach was to come up with a solution. So you again, you either do it on your own or you work with a company like Tectonics to handle the migration for you. Andrew Couillard: Got it. And you know, at this point, where has that gone? Like, you know, past the consortium, now things are rolling. Like how has I I guess a better question is how has your government go to market efforts really stacked over time? Because I think a lot of founders get discouraged. They don't know the first entry point, but feels like once you start building that momentum, it just starts stacking. So like how did this all stack together? Mike: Yeah, so I the first thing that we did was to get a silver. So I highly encourage anyone who would like to work with the US government to get a silver. it's pretty difficult to get your first silver, but if you work with folks like Harpoon, they'll be very helpful in that. So we got a silver going with the Navy. we completed it, so it's a phase one silver. And then if you get one silver in place, it gives you a contracting vehicle to do phase twos and phase threes, and it kind of gets your foot in the door. you know, it's a catch twenty-two. Or chicken or the egg in a lot of things with the US government. They want you to have a contracting vehicle in place, or they want you to be a system of record. Like it's much easier for people within the government to work with someone that's already vetted. There's something called an FCL, which is a facilities clearance. So you know the company needs to have clearance, and the people within the organization need to have clearance. So there's a whole bunch of different hoops to kind of navigate as you move forward. So yeah, so we We started off with the Sibber. Sibrers come out periodically. You can go to sam.gov and and other tools to figure out if you're a good fit for a SIBR. And you apply for the SIBR, you win the SIBR, you do the work, etc. So that was an obvious one for us, easy one for us. And SIBR is for small businesses, so we we fit that category. from there, I think you kind of just need to go out and meet people. So a lot of the work that we've been doing is made possible by a few advisors that we have. So one of our advisors was CTO of SOCOM. So he brings a breath of 30 years within pretty elite circles. We brought on someone that was previously CTO of Space Force. She also was CIO of SOCOM, SOCOM Special Forces, for anyone who's listening who doesn't know. So there are Folks out there that have connectivity. Harpoon has incredible connectivity within the Navy. So Harpoon invited us to events where they would throw events where you could look around and you see the top brass for the Navy. So if you can get in those rooms and then you go up to them and you know, you shake hands, kiss babies, and you tell people what you're working on, and you see if it if it's mission critical to what they're working on. If if there's symbiosis, you can move forward. So, you know, I think we certainly had an unfair advantage because we were working with hard. Harpoon Ventures. If I had been working with a a venture capitalist who was outside this industry, like there's there's no way we would have gotten this far. Andrew Couillard: Well thank you man. Yeah, and I think you did an incredible job with it too because I think and I hope what founders take away from this is not only is it important to pick the right capital partner that can add value beyond writing a check, but also that these people in within government are so accessible. These CTOs, these CIOs, they have these burning problems and they want to engage with industry. They just often don't know how and they're drowning in emails, they're drowning in outbounds. So like just meeting these people in person goes so far. in developing a relationship to then actually materialize into a contract. And I think you did that incredibly well. And one Mike: Mm-hmm. Andrew Couillard: thing I will say, like you're one of the craziest founders where back in February, I think it was the first time you went out to DC and then you're like, I'm staying here. I'm living here. Like what made you and drove you to just say, I'm gonna stay boots on the ground to get this done and how did that affect the contracts, the business that you were able to win and earn? Mike: Yeah, I mean DC is just where it's at. So back in the day, if it was this was twenty years ago and you wanted to work in venture capital, like you needed to be on Sand Hill Road, you know, in in the Bay Area. If you were an engineer, you needed to be either in you know, Silicon Valley or or San Francisco. if you want to work in entertainment, you need to be in Hollywood. you know, finance would be New York, so on and so forth. So From my vantage point, if you wanna be a big player within the US government, you need to be in DC. we do quite a bit of lobbying, so I'll be spending time on Capitol Hill, you know, maybe every month, every other month. all of the primes are there. So if you go to a place like Reston, Virginia, you're gonna walk around and you're gonna see SAIC and Lidos and Microsoft and Boeing, et cetera. So you know, primes play a big role in this industry. a lot of people who are employed within the US government. are so via a Prime. So yeah, every everyone's in Washington DC and if I'm in Washington, DC, the like the the meetings that I have, the dinners that I have, the events that I go to and the connectivity that I have is is incredible. It's it's priceless. Andrew Couillard: It is and I think it cannot be understated how important it is to go actually meet these people where they are. I mean th those that actually make the decisions throughout government are often in phosphorescent light rooms, they don't see a lot of windows. You have to go meet them where they are. And what did you learn and discover through that, what was it, three to four month process while you were there? Mike: I guess you kinda like you learn how it works. So Andrew Couillard: Yeah, being in the belly of the beast, you just see how this yeah. Mike: You know, the the the government primes, yeah, the the government primes like have a lot of contracts. So instead of going out and trying to get all of these contracts on your own as a startup, you can just team up with the primes, right? And then the primes are incentivized ideally to do work with you. So making sense of the primes was much easier when you're there and you could meet with all the primes and figure out go to market strategies with the primes. Lobbying made sense when you're there. It's really hard to lobby if you're not on Capitol Hill. Like you need to go to Capitol Hill and you go door to door to door to door to door. and then I would I would say that just just meetings in general. Like we've met again I you know I I I'm not gonna say specific names, but we've met a majority of the CTOs across the Department of War. And a lot within an the intelligence community. So if you're trying to do anything with the intelligence community, that's where they're at. Like there's a Virginia customer, there's a Maryland customer. so so yeah, it's like in-person meetings are the best. So that that's why I was in DC and that's why I spent half my time in DC. Andrew Couillard: Makes sense. So, you know, now you're starting to get a bit of traction on the revenue side and the government side. How are you thinking about building this team? Because you have, I mean, what what you call one of the top five people in the world on quantum NYU professor, a Tel Aviv PhD that won the best pepper or best paper at the top crypto conference, a CTO who's doing cryptography at Coinbase and this incredibly stacked team. So how are you thinking about building this out from both the technical side, but now as the government becomes a lot more significant party revenue share? How are you thinking of building a federal B Yeah. Mike: Yeah, great question. So I'll start with the academics. So this is an incredibly complicated problem and an equally complicated solution. So there are Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: very few academics in the world that have made postquantum cryptography and cryp cryptography in general their life's work. I believe we have the Michael Jordan of it. and then, you know, maybe we have the the Scottie Pippen as well. So one of our academics is MIT PhD. He's consulted with the top companies in the world, like Google's Zoom, signal on their migrations. So he's actually seen the migrations from RSA encryption to post-quantum cryptography from elite companies. So, you know, you there aren't that many folks that that have that experience and and that. That purview into what these migrations actually look like. We have one of the best lattice-based cryptographers in the world. He's a Stanford PhD. lattice-based cryptography is the solution. So anything that's post-quantum is lattice-based as of now. So, you know, if you're not working with the top academics, it's really hard to get. It's just the type of cryptography. So that's getting like very technical. Andrew Couillard: What do you mean by the lattice based? Okay, yeah. Mike: so yeah. So, so, anyways, We can get into a lot of rooms because of the pedigree of the people that we bring into the rooms. And they might not want to hear from me, but they want to hear from MIT PhDs and Stanford PhDs. So that's kind of how we look at the academics is you have to have the top academics that's table stakes. Because of the complexity of the work and because of the the notoriety behind their names. You know, people certainly want to listen to them. in terms of advisors that understand Department of War. We have Harpoon. We're working with a lot of the prime well, we're working with a few primes in a major way, which I can't really talk about here. And then we have a couple incredible advisors like that I'd spoke about before. Like one was previously CTO Space Force, one was CTO SOCOM. So if you have the right advisors, like they know where to go and they can make a ton of introductions. Again with Harpoon, like you guys Have made dozens of introductions that have been wildly helpful, given the fact that so many people from Harpoon used to serve. You know, Harpoon has a lot of ex-Navy SEALs and you know different folks. So, you know, you have to have some people who are helping you navigate the world of Department of War and intelligence community and USG, and that's how I think about it. Like those are the three. Like you have IC, intelligence community, department of war, and Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Yep. Mike: then everything federal. and then in terms of engineers, like we have incredible. engineers. So Mike Lauder who's our CTO. He previously worked in the intelligence community. He has a PhD in cryptography. but he also has great work for great companies like Coinbase. So he was a staff cryptography engineer at Coinbase. So we really have someone whose background's perfect for what we're building because they he can go like hang out with the top cryptographers in the world and speak their language, but he Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: can also federate that out to an elite group of engineers. Our engineers came from places like NASA and Cloudflare, Microsoft, Amazon. So I think it's the best time to be building an engineering team. And you Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: know, we have we have 10 world-class engineers. In terms of BD, like I'll be a tip of the spear given my background. and then I think it's important for me to get out there, learn, meet people, as we as we scale our products and and you know, try to tackle like a Andrew Couillard: Mike, I always have found that you've done an incredible job hiring. Can you just walk through a little bit of your secret sauce when comes to hiring people? The time you spend with them, I think is quite unique, especially for founders in the audience that are at the point where they're thinking and growing and scaling their teams. Mike: Yeah, so the main thing I say with engineers is I want an engineer to tell me. Like pick a product. So right now we have four core products. Like one is key management, one is called crypto agility, which I spoke about earlier. That just gives you the flexibility to pick the best encryption for you. we have secure networking and routing, and then we have an identity/slash attestation layer. I know those are a little bit technical. but those are the the four main products that we have. So you know, if I'm talking to an engineer, I want to know. What part of which product can they get obsessed with? Because if you have an engineer that's obsessed with trying to solve a complicated problem, then they're gonna work long nights, they're gonna work over the weekend, and they're gonna be excited. And if you have people that are passionate about what they're building, I think a lot of the other issues go away. One of our engineers who was previously at NASA, he was working a ton on the weekends. And I said, hey, You don't need to work so much on the weekends. And he basically told me he's like, what we're trying to do is very intellectually stimulating for him. Like he enjoys working on it. And if he wasn't working on that, he'd be like building train sets or learning about something else. Because that's just who he is. Like he's a very curious Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: person and he's a very hardworking person. So that's the number one thing for me is I I try to look at folks and I say, like, is this person genuinely curious? Can they genuinely get obsessed with what we're trying to build? and if the answers are are like yeah, then then you hire him. And and Another thing I always say is like if it's not an F yeah, it's an F no. So if I can kinda see Andrew Couillard: Yeah, I know, I've stolen that from you. I like that one. What like how do you I mean yeah. Yeah. Mike: Yeah, if I could see trepidation in someone, then then I like I really try to talk them out of it. You know, I think another thing that's that's important is to be super upfront. You have to say, like, this is a startup. Do you know what it's like to work for a startup? And you walk through you know, startup life. Cause I think startup life has been glamorized, but it's really rough. You know, you're changing directions on a dime. Yeah, yeah, Andrew Couillard: it sucks. You guys are in the trenches. Yeah. Mike: you're working super hard and yeah, I I think you you kind of have to like weed out to try to figure out is this is this a match? Andrew Couillard: And I think you asked all the right questions to do that. So you talked earlier about executive alignment. I think you do a great job with incentive alignment. So what are some of those questions that you always ask or your go tos when you're trying to figure out that incentive alignment? Mike: So what I what I've learned, and I'm still learning, is a lot of it has to do with character. Like Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: I need to hire people with high character. That's my number one. I focus a lot on the vibe. So we have a lot of different folks on our team and different personalities, but I would say that now, like we have like really high vibes as a team. And I think that that's incredibly important. So I Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: would much rather hire someone with very high character, high vibes, than you know, some like world class, you know, engineer, et cetera, who's maybe a little bit lower on vibes. If they have questionable character, then we just can't move forward with them. So I think let's so Andrew Couillard: Yeah. And how do you figure that out? Is it through Zoom? Is it through references? Is it through just spending time with them in person? Mike: So the number one way to to figure this out is to hire people who have worked with people before. So Mike Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: Lauder, a CTO, he's brought on a few folks that he's been dying to work with for decades. Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: So if Mike Lauder brings me someone that he's worked with before and they've gone to battle together, and you have to use battle sparingly when you're talking to folks in the Department of War, but you know, when you've gone Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: into like keyboard battle, then then my trust in Mike is enough of a bridge. His trust in that person that I basically don't even need to talk to them. Like I'll hop Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: on a call. If you know, if Mike says, hey, we should we should bring someone on, I'll hop on a call to basically try to talk them out of it and to try to figure out what product is gonna get them super excited. Like I'll be a second set of eyes in ears. But if Mike wants to hire someone, the hire is already made. because it's so much better than hiring someone who's random. So another one of our engineers who's a really epic guy, he He worked in NASA and he's pulled over some folks from from his background. So I would so much rather hire folks that have worked together and then it doesn't really matter what you ask them on on an interview. Like I would I don't think I'm an expert in interview questions and like getting this stuff out. I think there's way better resources. But I think the strategy of of over-indexing on relationships. that have like stood the test of time i is a Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: really, really important way to go. Andrew Couillard: I guess that's selling advice. Alright, so if you were king for a day within government, it could be a policy change, it could be the way that the government procures things. What single change would you do in the form of security? Mike: we get rid of F C Ls and PCLs and like their bureaucratic tape. Andrew Couillard: What well if we get rid of FCLs, like what do we do? How do we know what's cleared? How do we know which space to go into? Yeah. Mike: It's just really difficult to get in, you know, it's like It's it's hard for folks from the outside that that that like have a solution, that have the team, that have the enthusiasm, that are venture packed. You still have to just jump through these hoops that seem a little ridiculous and they're they're important, but I just wish there was a faster way. So there's been times Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: where we've had CIO who wants to meet with us, CTO who wants to meet with us from organizations that everyone has heard of and we can't do Do it because you know we're early stage startup and we're just haven't caught up to all of the clearances and you know all of the the kind of prophylactic things Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: we need to do as an organization. So it's a little bit of a bummer that that you know the speed isn't there. So there are different folks who are trying to speed things up. So DIU has something for FCLs which is clearance for the company you know that we're trying to take advantage of. ST's had conversations about this, DIA's had conversations about this, FedRAMP is evolving and changing. So I think the government is hearing from folks. Like I think the Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: gov this gu this administration, especially, you know, is saying we got to figure out a way to work with startups. And, you know, we we need this talent. So the talent now wants to come. I think if you were talking about 10 years ago, I don't think a lot of the elite engineers in Silicon Valley wanted to work with the government. I think the pendulum is shifting towards really elite talent being more patriotic. and wanting to build things that that matter and in in ways that are different to social media apps. So yeah, I I would just figure out easier solutions to to cross that that chasm. You know, if someone wanted to do a KYC on me and like Andrew Couillard: Yeah, and just reduce the red tape, right? Mike: have a you know two hour poly so I can go to into a very important meeting, you know, I'd I'd like love to do it. so yeah, it's just kind of like cro crossing figuring out more effective ways to cross the bridge from a commercial company to a company that works within the US government. Andrew Couillard: You heard it here first. Mike's ready for the full scope poly. Let's go. Well you know, you Mike: Yeah. Andrew Couillard: said the deadline for that quantum attack is twenty thirty. So what does Tectonic look like in twenty thirty if everything goes right? Mike: wow, what what do we look like? Well we'd be a very big company. So Andrew Couillard: Yeah. Mike: you know, there's a play where we sell dual use. So, you know, the Fortune thousand companies need this technology as well, unless you want a quantum attack to infiltrate all banking data, all HIPAA, you know, compliance data. you know, every every single industry needs to migrate. so so yeah, I th I think if If we if we set out to achieve our mission, then this is a very, very big company, a very important company, and we're hopefully protecting All US citizens, but hopefully doing so in the background. So you won't know if this video or a text that you send is using RSA encryption or if it's using post-quantum encryption, post-quantum cryptography. We hope to protect all of these systems. and yeah, hopefully people will just never know that they're using more secure communications or that their power grid has a extra layer of security on it, or that the nuclear codes aren't in jeopardy of of being compromised by an adversary. So hopefully we're like a massive company that's just hanging in the background. Andrew Couillard: And it's just ubiquitous, you don't even know it, but things are just secured, right? Mike: Mm-hmm. Andrew Couillard: That's awesome. Well, Mike, thank you so much for your time. The last one for you. So for all the founders in the audience, maybe even some that are considering applying to Black Flag, what's the one parting advice or thing you'd tell Mike: So Black Flag fundamentally changed the trajectory of our company and it gave us a footing into the US government and it gave us a very important reason to pivot. So it's an incredible group and it's a very high-vibe team. It's a very fun team, all of the Harpoon guys and gals, and they they bring in the right folks. So I think it's a no brainer. I think it's the equivalent of doing Y combinator, but if you wanna be a company that can sell into the US government, like I would say black flag flag could be, you know, the Y C of of the US government. Andrew Couillard: I love that Mike, and we're incredibly grateful to have exceptional founders like you, both in the Black Flag and Harpoon family. So thank you so much for your time. I'm looking forward to our plank competition. That still hasn't been done yet. And one of these days we're finally gonna do it. But I'll probably see you out in DC soon. Alright, Mike: Yep, sounds good, thank you. Andrew Couillard: take care, brother. Thank you.