Latest / WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast) / Episode 36 - Killer Curry

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Episode 36 - Killer Curry · WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast)

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast discusses real-life crimes and law enforcement matters.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: You're about to eat a meal.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: You see something that you think might be amiss.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: You're suspicious.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: But you take a bite.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Suddenly, your tongue becomes numb and you experience a taste of extreme bitterness.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is not a hypothetical.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: This is an alleged case of poisoning that we will be discussing here in Western Australia on this podcast this week, Nate.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: There are shades in this story, Joey, that uh liken to a uh an infamous case now uh of a triple murder in Victoria involving a beef wellington and deathcat mushrooms.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, more on that later.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um and gang crime squad.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: They've taken a trip?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Crime knows no borders and um they're not in the state right now.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: Hmm.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: Let's let's not go there right now.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: Let's let's wait and hear from them about where they are and what they're doing.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: And the WA police commissioner, Cole Blanche, joins us today to talk about one of the more difficult aspects of policing in detail.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: Pursuits.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Police pursuits.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: And look, it it is very topical at the moment.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: We've had uh a a terrible, tragic, and and shocking instance where there's been a collision between a police vehicle and an elderly citizen who suffered serious injuries.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um he's going to talk us through the nuances of when we decide to pursue, why we decide to pursue, when we don't pursue.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: And Nate, you're going to share some personal experience on this as well.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've uh been in those situations before, and uh yeah, I'll share some of my experiences.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what it's like to make those decisions at like high speed, high stakes.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Very much so.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: This is WA Police Confidential, the official weekly podcast of the Western Australia Police Force.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Joey Katinsaro and I'm Sergeant Nate Gilmore.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: Let's get into it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: This podcast discusses matters that may be before the courts, any charges or allegations, and the accused are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_04: Nothing in this discussion is intended to prejudice the outcome of those proceedings.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're listening to WA Police Confidential: a beef wellington, deathcap mushrooms, and a woman from Victoria charged with three counts of murder and one of attempted murder.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a case, Joey, that captivated the nation.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the world.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: While this week's story has a vastly different ending, it starts with a question many of us have never considered.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Can you trust what's really in your lunch?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_04: That that case in Victoria, of course, was um a woman who was convicted of murder after she uh she put Death Cut mushrooms into a beef wellington, then fed it to some people.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: Three of them died, one of them almost died.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: Uh she's currently serving time in prison.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um here today, uh, we'll be talking about what we will allege, and this is before the courts, uh yet to go before the courts, so it is an allegation.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, was uh a poisoning attempt.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh slightly different in the sense that the chef was not, and I'll make this clear, the poisoner, but um we'll get into that in just a moment.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh here to talk with us today.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Detective Constable Matt DeCinkwe from Armadale Detectives.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Matt, thanks for coming on the pod.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay, thanks for having me.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: Matt, okay, can you tell us uh first and foremost, how did you become aware of this?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: When was the initial report made?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the initial report came through in February.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we received a call in relation to um believed to be snail pellets added to some communal food in the lunchroom at their workplace.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_04: So a mass poisoning or targeted?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's a a specifically targeted incident.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: So keeping in mind this is all alleged at this stage, um you've gone out there.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_04: What is what is what is the alleged victim in this case?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: What's she what has she told police?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially the report came through um that they had found snail pellets in the curry.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um the victim uh typically would cook uh curry to share with her colleagues at work.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and upon opening the container at lunchtime, noticed um some bright green granules in there that um obviously uh aren't what she typically puts in.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um so she's tasted the curry uh to see what they are, and upon putting them in her mouth, um her tongue's gone completely numb.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um she's tasted like a bitter taste and then spat it out and reported it to uh her manager, who in turn called the police.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so in this instance, the chef is the victim.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: So she normally would cook what type of curry for her colleagues?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, she's of Thai background, so the Thai Thai curry that she typically share with her colleagues.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so the chef has brought this stuff in.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh she's, as you said, she's put it in her mouth, she tasted it, bitter taste, tongue's gone numb, spat it out.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you go from there?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um in terms of investigating something like this where it's a suspected poisoning.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the officers went out and they've taken a sample of the food itself.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um the owner of the the workplace um identified that the green granules look similar to um some snail bait that they keep in the chemical shed at the property.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we've also taken a sample of the the snail bait.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um both samples were sent to the chemistry center and um tested.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: The test has come back and confirmed the presence of metaldehyde in the food.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they've confirmed the active ingredient in the the snail baits to be metaldehyde as well.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, and potentially you've consumed it enough, a big enough dose, could that could that be lethal or at least extremely harmful?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I believe so, yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I ate enough of it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Alright.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: How would we then allege um the well the poison that got into the food?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_04: And what was the motivation there?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um at the workplace there's CCTV cameras covering the entrance to the chemical shed and the entrance to the lunchroom.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um between 10 a.m.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: and 12 p.m., we observe a person enter the chemical shed and that same person also enter the lunchroom shortly after.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: Will we be alleging there's any uh relationship between the two individuals?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: Is there a motivation there that will be discussed potentially in court?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, so the two individuals um have a close personal relationship um that we would allege was breaking down around the time of the incident.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: Alright.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_04: Was there any suspicious behaviour that you observed on the CCTV that led to these charges being laid?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh so when uh a person exited the chemical shed, um they entered without any gloves, and upon exiting they can be seen wearing a singular sort of disposable glove.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um their hand can be seen in a fist, um, and we'll allege that they climbed back onto their machine with the fist still clenched and folded the glove uh inside out over itself, retaining what they were holding in their fist.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Nate, um just pause there for just a moment.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_04: Have you ever encountered anything like this in your your policing career or any poisonings?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, eighteen years in the job, I've not seen anything like it.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's quite unique and quite interesting the way you describe it, Matt.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um look for I'm sure for everybody uh listening uh and watching as well, but but certainly really traumatic, I guess, for the person um who is the victim in this case.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um so from this point forward, uh the investigation, I guess, uh that part of it is largely done.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_04: What was it what was the charge?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the charge preferred was um actions with intent to cause harm um that are likely to endanger life, health, or safety.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: So how how serious is that, man?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: What would the maximum penalty for a charge like that be?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the the maximum penalty for that charge is uh 20 years imprisonment.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's quite serious.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's very serious, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very serious, very serious.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's fortunate that um no serious harm was caused to the to the victim.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, um could have had fatal consequences, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she's quite lucky.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely could have gone a lot worse than it did.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Matt, thanks very much for coming in.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it is obviously one that we'll watch as it um it progresses through the courts.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, thanks very much to you and everybody out there at Armandale.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh doing a great job.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they say crime knows no borders, and last episode we bought you a case of an extradition of an alleged drug lord from Colombia.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: If you missed that, go back and have a listen.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's totally worth your time.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: This week we're heading to the Northern Territory, and we're asking the question as to why WA police officers are being sworn in as special constables hundreds of kilometres from home.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: What does a national outlaw motorcycle gang gathering mean for police across Australia?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And how do different jurisdictions work together to disrupt organised crime?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Joining us on the phone is Senior Constable Rowan Gamble from the gang response team.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Rowan, you're calling us from Alice Springs, I believe.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, correct, in Alice Springs at the moment.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: And can you tell us what are you doing out there?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what's a what's a WA gang crime guy doing out in the middle of the country?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, we got called about a week or so ago.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_07: Northern Territory Police had information been told that the outlaw, sorry, the outlaws, outlaw motorcycle gang were hosting a national event at uh a place called the Ross River Resort, which is about 80 Ks outside of Alice.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_07: And they're expecting between 200 to 250 members of the Society to attend the event.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_07: They basically booked out the whole entire resort just to themselves.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_07: Um and then Alice just uh sorry, the Northern Police didn't have the resources to to cope with that pure number.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_07: Um and also I think their gang task force has like six staff, I believe, and that's it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_07: So they they put the word out to different jurisdictions to help to place this event.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_07: And so four of us from the gang response team have come from WA, plus a number from South Australia, and there's a contingent from the Australian Federal Police as well.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so was this one one club, one outlaw motorcycle gang, sorry, not club?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, they're called the Outlaws.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_07: That's that's their name is the Outlaws, but they're actually the oldest outlaw motorcycle gang club in the world who found in 1935 in Illinois, so the oldest club in the world.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_07: And so it's just that one club being they're called the Outlaws.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, this is kind of fitting because we're in the middle of the Outback, they're called the Outlaws, and you've been sworn in as a special constable, which has a real kind of posse sheriff deputy kind of vibe, which I love.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh what's the process of being sworn in as a special constable, by the way?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_07: Uh probably a lot easier than I thought.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_07: I was kind of surprised.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_07: We we touched down an Alice on um about midday, Sunday, just gone, and then got picked up straight away by our counterparts here and got taken to the Alice police station, and a um assistant commissioner just sat us down and we read out the oath in front of him and signed some papers, and that was it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_07: Took ten minutes.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_04: Very easy.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_07: Can can anyone see his shorts, t-shirt, and his crocodiles was the assistant commissioner.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's excellent.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um does it have to be a certain rank of person, uh like an officer?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_07: I believe so, yeah, because there's a superintendent as well that was around the building inspector, but this assistant commissioner came in to do it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_07: So I think it has to be a certain rank.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna I'm gonna see if the commissioner will potentially um swear me in for just five minutes or something, so I can put it on my on the CV.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Special constable.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: You might be reverting back to Proby wages though, Joey.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So be careful.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you you've sought you've been sworn in as a special constable in Alice.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: You've got 250 uh uh outlaw motorcycle gang members descending upon this this one location.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: What happens next?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so we so Monday morning is a bit of an early start for us, so we straight away so and some of the Northern Territory guys, we proceeded south on the Stuart Highway towards the South Australian border.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_07: Um the South Australian counterparts had about 40 odds they were monitoring, making their way up towards the border.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_07: So probably about 40 kilometers short of the NTSA border, we set up a vehicle control point.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_07: South Australian guys follow them into uh the territory, and then we probably put all 40 into a checkpoint, um, photograph them, ID check them, license check them, search for any any weapons contraband.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_07: Uh though most of those guys are with a mixture of WA and Victorian outlaws, and then sent them on the way.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_07: And then we then heard that there was a bunch at Uluru doing the size of Uluru, I do so.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_07: So then we made our way to Uluru, which again was not a route 250k.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_07: Um and then we went to Uluru and yet sort of found a bunch of them drinking beers at the base of Uluru.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_07: So we sort of dealt with them there.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_07: It was just the four of us in WA contingent that did that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_07: And then um dealt with them at Uluru.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_07: We got our own photographs at Uluru just for the old tourist stuff, and then uh after that made our way back to back to Alice.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_07: So probably covered up covered about 1100 Ks that day all up, we think.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_07: So did a bit of driving.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_07: Come across 40 to 50 outlaws along the way.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Rowan, WA has some of the toughest anti-association laws with these um outlaw motorcycle groups.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: How how does that compare to somewhere like the Northern Territory?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Are they free to associate or is it similar?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_07: They can do what they want here, and that's that's why they're having it in the territory, because in the territory you can wear your colours uh out in the streets.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_07: The only the only place you cannot wear colours is in a licensed premises, so they can wear the colours on the bikes, walking down the street, whatever they want.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_07: That's why they're holding it in the territory.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_04: It'd be interesting to see uh very different.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: Very different.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, look, obviously, um Western Australia brought in very tough legislation we we haven't seen, thankfully, uh any any outlaw motorcycle gangs being uh in en masse wearing their their insignia, uh their colours, as they call it, uh since those laws came into effect.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_04: And any who have, I mean, we've we've you know we've charged them um and put them before the court.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's possible that you know uh uh that the NT may bring that legislation in at some point.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: I guess it just goes to show that regardless, the biggest the biggest group, if you will, the biggest club in Australia is probably probably the pol the state police jurisdictions.
• 16:25
  unknown: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_07: And we we had a good chat with um uh the counterparts here in the territory and the the guy running the event uh will coordinate the police event here, detective senior sergeant, um John Spence the top loke and he runs the the or didn't run the gang task force here now's uh now's the future task force and he's he'd try to bring it in, but he's there's no appetite for the politicians in the territory to to implement it, so so it probably won't happen here.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, all right.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe it's uh that sounds way above all of our pay grades, I reckon.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um hundred cents above our pay grades and he said the same thing.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: So Rowan, what's what's the um the general attitude from the outlaw motorcycle gang members been towards the WA coppers?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Has it been quite hostile?
• 17:08
  unknown: No, not at all.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_07: I think at first, the first three or four we stopped, I was surprised to see us.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_07: Um and then obviously word got out to the rest of them that we were in the territory, because prior prior to them arriving, 13 got stopped in Meriden and they got issued dispersal notices on their way to here.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_07: So they knew straight and that's even though they were issued in WA, that's still nationwide enforcement.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_07: So word got pretty quick that we were we were here and then uh they they kept their distances because they knew we're in the territory basically we're looking for them.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_07: So but they'll they've been pretty pretty fine with us.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_07: And in general, probably the 200, we had a vehicle control point yesterday, we stopped 200 outlaws heading into the event, and I think 98% were pretty good.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: We heard not that long ago, Rowan, that um you know we had uh I think it was the um the Mongols heading up to to Broome for a bit of a what what they were hoping was uh was a holiday and they got turned back.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean I think the the moral of the story here is um if you enjoy holidaying in nice locations, perhaps maybe you should get out of uh the outlaw motorcycle gangs so that you can actually do that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: Because I mean I think we've all probably been on a vacation with that third wheel or that really annoying friend um that's crashing the party.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and in this case, it's you guys, isn't it, Rowan?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_07: Absolutely, yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_07: I think uh when we we it was funny, we pulled just a service station just to get some fuel.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_07: We're heading towards the South Australian border, and we just spotted one dude never stand next to the pump and then end up being a West of Australian outlaw.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_07: Then we went around the back and there's about six, seven or more just just around their bikes, but they were in the back of the service station they couldn't be seen.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_07: They see us walk around and uh surprised look in their face when they saw us guys, so yeah.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: Damn and gang response team.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um you you guys have a bit of a reputation for being quite responsive and and and generally quite uh good at your jobs.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to think how I've seen some of you guys, and you you are large individuals often.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_07: Some some boys.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_07: There were some big boys there.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_07: I'm not saying I am it, we do have some big boys there.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: I might have seen a video once of somebody, uh gang response guy pulling a bikey through I think what was the remnants of a of the windscreen of a car.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I I don't know how you'd have to be pretty strong to do that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: It was pretty cool.
• 19:34
  unknown: Okay, yeah.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_07: Now we do have some yeah, some robust characters now, you know that's for sure.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: Robust characters.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um cool.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: Rowan, um, look, in honor of uh of you and everybody there from uh the gang gang response team.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um oh Rowan, by the way, normally it's um we we have because we we do the podcast in the anti kind of room to the armory.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: We usually have uh officers coming in to kit up, put their body armor on, discharge their toes.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: We've just had the commissioner of police Cole Blanch walk in.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: Rowan uh from the gang response team is in northern territory at the moment.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: He I don't know if he's putting armor on or what's going on.
• 20:13
  unknown: Okay.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_07: Alright, I'll probably put him on the on the podcast for a second.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_07: I'm gonna be nervous.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: He just walked in though.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: He didn't say nothing to say.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Robin, it look in in honor of um of the of the great work that you and and um even our colleagues in the other jurisdictions did over there in the Northern Territory uh disrupting that out motorcycle gang's plans.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think they were they thought they were hitting the road and and and and heading uh off to um a vacation.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: Instead, they found themselves on highway to hell.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: So by our WA Police Pike band this week in honor of you and and your colleagues, here it is.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: Highway to hell.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: This is confidential.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, joining us right now, your WA Police Commissioner Cole Blanche.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: Boss, thank you very much for coming in.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: Boss, um there there was a fair bit of media attention this week about a well, it was it really was a very confronting incident.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we had basically somebody who would we will allege stole a car um and decided to uh evade police and didn't want to stop.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we were pursuing that individual.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: And in the course of that pursuit, the uh we we've had um a collision between the police vehicle and a civilian.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um An an elderly man, a man in his eighties, who was pretty badly injured during that collision.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: I guess what we're hoping to talk about today, boss, is when do we pursue and why do we pursue?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: Is it a simple yes or no?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're doing this and and we're gonna chase this person down no matter what?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_04: Or is it is there more to it?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh all police departments have a responsibility to firstly look through everyone who is involved, look through their eyes at this problem.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one we should look through is the community and in particular the family and the person who's been injured in this particular incident.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone can put themselves in their shoes and go, Well, that happened to my dad and my grandfather.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd want answers.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd want answers from the police and I'd want to know why they they were involved in that pursuit.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And quite rightly, they would want those answers pretty quickly.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because something really bad has happened to your family member, and you want to know why that has happened and and what have the police done uh to cause that.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's always a really hard one to get them answers as quick as possible because often we don't know.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: We you know, we have to do an independent investigation.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But then you also have to look at look at it through the eyes of the community.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do they expect police to do when someone's doing something really bad on our roads?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and there is probably a divided opinion on that sometimes, as uh you will hear commentary on social media and other places, and all the police shouldn't chase people.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then there'll be others that will say, well, absolutely that's what they should do.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next lens to look through is the police officers themselves, uh, who are under tremendous scrutiny.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have to understand we live in a world where that scrutiny is expected by our community.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be transparent.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: We video everything, we wear body-worn camera, we have dash cams, and everyone can deconstruct what we've done in what is a very dynamic situation where decisions are made in milliseconds, not even seconds, milliseconds, about is this the right thing to do?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do I keep going?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then we can, sadly, we're all Monday morning quarterbacks, we sit around and and deconstruct that down to every single second and go, have you done the right thing or have you done the wrong thing?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you can understand our police officers feel a lot of pressure around that.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that I'll talk in in a little bit more about how important training is and the right vehicles and the right conditions and what we ask of our police officers to do in that circumstance.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And probably the final lens to always remember is people doing the wrong thing.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want them to be thinking?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want them to steal a car, hurt someone, do something bad in our community, and think, well, I know the police aren't going to chase me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I might just do this every day because I keep getting away with it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you want the thing uh the those offenders to think I know the police in WA are pretty focused on catching criminals and putting them before the court?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I might do this a different way or not do it at all.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a really important part that we often forget as part of this conversation.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: Is there another element, Dopos, as well, where um sometimes we see instances where we we haven't actively pursued someone and they have ended up crashing a stolen vehicle or their vehicle at speed into a civilian?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that happens all the time and and more often than we understand.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: I think it even happened the day after this this pursuit that we're discussing.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what what we don't talk about often is fatalities on our roads, which we know is a is a conversation we have a lot, but often those fatalities are in fact caused by people who are committing crime, not only on the road, but may have uh left the scene of a crime, uh, may have consumed illicit substances and are driving so erratically and dangerously that they kill other people.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: That does happen uh in a in a lot of our road fatalities.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and people will often ask, well, how do you know that's hap how that happens?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or how do you know people will drive like that when police aren't behind them?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because we have wonderful things called helicopters and planes.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And often they are up in the sky, and that's exactly how they detect bad drivers, because they see the behavior on the road with no police in their vicinity, driving dangerously, driving at a level where they're going to kill people, and sadly often they do.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sometimes the suggestion is if we weren't behind them, they wouldn't be driving like that.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: We can fundamentally dispute that uh that argument because we see it all the time from the sky.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the important thing to remember is it's not always just the inclusion of police causing people to drive recklessly and dangerously and hurt and kill people.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: That happens each and every day.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we do know our presence may uh accelerate bad things from happening.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to be very careful about our pursuit policy, which we are.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm happy to talk through exactly what we can and can't do and why we do or don't do something.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's important.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: It is can it does sound really difficult, boss, about making in those split-second decisions uh at speed about are we doing the right thing?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Are we going to stop more harm from happening?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: Are we going to cause more harm?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I wouldn't mind just just asking quickly, Nate, you you you were in traffic you were in traffic.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: I am a qualified pursue driver.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and um have you have you had to be in that situation before?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_04: How difficult is it?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Extremely difficult.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, you you've got an ongoing risk assessment when you're behind the wheel of a police car going out speed uh in in pursuit of an offender.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you've got to you've got to make those decisions and uh you've got to be spot on.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um and or things can can come unstuck pretty quickly.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's um it's that the quote is I think not rising rising to the occasion, but falling to the level of your training.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: So do we if we could talk about the training and the and the policy boss, because I think that's instead of uh instead of pointing at police officers and saying, geez, how did you not make a certain decision whilst in this very trying circumstance, I think it's more the policy and the training that we need to look at if they're following it.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it all starts.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the policy starts with the basic premise that is what I'm about to do as a police officer less of a risk or harm to the community than if I do nothing or if I let this continue on for longer.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a decision we ask our police officers to make.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm about to take an action, chasing someone, um, disrupting their or running into their car, doing some of those evade resolution tactics.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm about to do these things.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is that less of a harm?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Not no harm, is it less of a harm that if I let it continue or I do nothing whatsoever?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the first the way we ask our officers to assess that risk is to do what's called the POET risk assessment.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just an acronym, obviously, and it stands for four things, and it starts with police, the police officer themselves.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Am I appropriately trained?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: What have I been trained in?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there are levels of training in the police that goes all the way to these drivers who are very well trained, sometimes internationally trained, uh, in evade resolution tactics.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: The important thing there is if we're going to put ourselves in a dangerous situation in our community, that that police officer is trained.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the next question you would ask is: Am I in an appropriate vehicle?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I am in a vehicle that will go fast, stop fast, is safe, has all the safety equipment.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it authorized under our regulations to be able to participate in this type of activity?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Both of those things have to be yes to be in a high risk of aid.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be trained properly and in the right vehicle.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the next, so that's P.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: The next O is options.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any other options I could take other than chasing this person?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the first question usually is airwing in the sky.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do we have a helicopter and aeroplane?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't have to chase this person because they will follow them around safely, even though they might be driving crazily.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: We can't stop them.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But at least we've got eyes on them till they get to somewhere where we can take different actions.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or do we know who's in that car and can we arrest them later on?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do we have uh spike strips out somewhere else?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that will bring them to a stop.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are there other tactics rather than chasing them or taking more riskier tactics available to me?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they've got to assess that that O.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: E is uh an obvious one and it's been assessed for many, many years.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's the environment I'm in?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is it raining?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is it nighttime?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are there a lot of pedestrians around?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are there a lot of cars around?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: That all significantly increases the risk.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Am I on a three-lane highway?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Am I on one lane, one-lane road?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Am I in a school zone?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, this poet isn't done once, and then you just drive around forever.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's done all the time.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as any of those circumstances change, you do another risk assessment.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: You do another risk assessment.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: The T stands for the target.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: How much risk is this target to our community?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, I said earlier, do we know who it is?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Can we go and arrest that person later at home?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are they causing harm to our community of such magnitude that I've got to stop them now?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Did they just carch someone?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a baby in the back seat?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are they driving on the wrong side side at 200 kilometres an hour without the police there?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is this, you know, are have they just committed a murder?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Are they an acting uh active armed offender?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things will have to be considered.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: That entire poet risk assessment is assessed minute by minute, second by second, by that driver.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you can imagine what's going through their head because they're also driving a lethal weapon at high speeds in our community, trying to keep our community safe and bring that person to stop.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the the most important thing out of that is when people say who's to blame and who's to who are the problem, let's look at the driver in the car that has decided to run from the police.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: They are the ones who are caused the harm in our community.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because I can guarantee you, every single police officer in my police force do not want to chase people through the streets causing community harm.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually trying to minimize the harm that that person is causing our community.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's a danger, I imagine, to to some extent, even though, as you said, extensive training to the police officers.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think um, you know, uh we're catching up at some stage soon uh with an officer who whose leg was really badly damaged during uh a police pursuit um under circumstances that we don't know yet, but he ended up losing that leg.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean it's not something that a police officer will undertake lightly, I guess is what I the point I'm I'm trying to make.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I wanted to ask um probably Nate, are you conscious when um when you enter into these sorts of things that there is a risk, an element of risk to you and also to your part?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and as the commissioner said, it's an ongoing assessment and you've got to consider your options.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: Is it worth going after?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: What have they done?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what is the risk to the community and uh and the environmental uh factors as well?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a lot going on um with that driver and to to add to the to the complexity of the situation, they're they're driving uh a heavy vehicle under emergency conditions.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: This particular one, boss, obviously there's an investigation underway and can't get ahead of it, right?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: We just have to let it play out rather than make any any conclusions at this point in time.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's two parts to these things.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's the incident itself and and the decisions that were made on this specific incident, but there's also the review of the policy in general to see if you know we can mitigate these um sad things from happening in the future.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what people often forget is most police policy has been designed over many years because of bad things that have happened to not only police officers, but to members of our community.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we're always refining policy, and things happen, sometimes just accidents happen, even though police are conducting high-risk activities, that we couldn't possibly have foreseen that specific incident.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have to redesign our policy.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's ever going to reach a conclusion of policing.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: It will always change and adapt to a changing environment, changing world, changing offenders.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the important thing is that we always start with that premise of is what I'm about to do less of a harm than what could be caused?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's easy to be that Monday morning quarterback and go, well, the police officer should have done this, should have done that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't sitting in that driver's seat making those split-second decisions.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's another key element to um pursuits and as we call them, evades, so people evading us.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that is any person, the driver, the passenger, or the state operations command inspector, can terminate that at any time if they consider that the risk is too high.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just up to the driver.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: The passenger can terminate, and so can an inspector who's listening to the evade occur.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a really important part to those situations because sometimes the driver might be so fixated on making sure they're doing their risk assessments, they're driving, they're they're accounting for all those things, they might not see something the passenger sees.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or the SOC might know something that the driver and the passenger don't know.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be terminated and often can be terminated in different ways.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Terminated no more chasing, uh, or terminated and reset and start again if if the situation changes.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they're really important parts to a policy like this.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, boss.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and you're right, in the sense that um policy changes because um crime and and you know the community evolve, things change, the methods of transport change.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I don't know if this is true, but I I do recall hearing from one of our older officers that there was a time, way back when, that it was still seen as best practice if if someone was pulling away and they were a high risk to shoot at the vehicle.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: Does do you remember that in your career or is that before your time, boss?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, I um I I remember during my training, they'd finally worked out that shooting at vehicles has no effect whatsoever, other than being extremely dangerous to everyone in and around the vehicle.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it certainly doesn't stop a car, and you'd be very lucky to hit something on a car that would stop a car.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we were trained very carefully in saying that's a stupid idea.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting to point out that that was seen as an option at some point.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Smarter minds came to be and said you need to stop that and come up with these other tactics.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh WA police are probably nation-leading in the tactics we can apply to bring a VAGES to a resolution.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: What we need to remember is letting a VAGES go for too long is a is a continued risk to our community.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there are tactics uh that we have gone to Scotland to learn, that we've gone to the United States to learn, that we have trained uh some of our officers in who are the specialists in these things.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that is stationary um vehicle containment, mobile vehicle containment, controlled vehicle contact, and tactical vehicle immobilization.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: They are all different ways to bring an evade to an end, and that's our way to mitigate before airwing gets up, is to stop a pursuit before it gets dangerous.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, everything I've said is of no comfort to a person sitting in hospital with serious injuries and their family.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the last thing we ever wanted.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as a police force and a police commissioner, I have to explain myself and the policy of this agency.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really uh two things can be true at once.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that's true is that the driver and the passenger have nothing to compassion for what's happened in this incident.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: So my job is also to look after them and tell them, you know, this is why the policy is the way it is, that you can drive within the policy, but bad things can still happen.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not about we we have to understand your driving.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: There will be an investigation, we'll review the dash cam.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if everything's within policy or reasonably within policy, then it's the policy we look at.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's have we made the right choices as an agency?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is our training right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are the vehicles right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, could what could we have done differently?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're the answers that we are obliged and that we must give to the family.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, say that um while we don't always get it right, we're always trying.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh without doubt, and I can tell you, the people in that car were trying to reduce the risk to our community, and it didn't go right for us on this occasion.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the really hard thing for us to sit around and even talk about because we we we join this job to help people and make their lives better, not to harm them.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, even as police commissioner, I I reflect heavily on all the policies that I own as commissioner and go, you know, we've always got to be ahead of the game.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: We've always got to be trying to improve.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why the job of this agency is to look around the world.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who's who's doing best practice?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm proud to say our men and women are amazing people in this agency, and they are designing best practice and innovation, and they've got the passion to do it each and every day.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again, an an issue an incident like this is terrible for us to process.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure it's 10 times harder on the family and the person sitting in the hotel in the hospital room.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that should motivate us to be better.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I know I did double check while we were talking, boss, um, the day after the pursuit that we're talking about, where the the eight-year-old driver, civilian, was was um seriously injured.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there was a car um that crashed into a civilian car with no police pursuit at that time we'd called it off.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: Do we look at that as well?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Do we go, should we have been pursuing?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think every um look I'll start here.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Police accidents uh andor accidents involving offenders on the road are far too common and very dangerous.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And very dangerous.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Probably one of the most highest risk activities for police officers to injure themselves or members of our community.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So any instance like that, we always look at them.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: We always review um, you know, did we do the right thing?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to be very clear here.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about the police officer and the driver's decision making, because my job is to train them to a point where they make good decisions or decisions within the policy.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I expect of our officers, and they do that almost all the time.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's always about the policy framework.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are the policies and procedures right that are keeping our community the safest?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And every time we have any incident, whether there is an evade or there isn't, but someone's injured or there's been a crash, that's what we should review to make sure that in in one year's time, in five years' time, in ten years' time, we're even better than we were today.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I will say the evade resolution tactics that are being trained in this organization is all designed to bring it to a close as quick as possible.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: It will end up with more um broken cars in policing, but it's broken cars better than broken limbs and people who have died from these activities.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm prepared to wear the broken car bit.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: Boss, thank you very much uh for your time.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is uh WA Police Confidential.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's that time of the podcast once again for It's Probably Bad News.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: And we're joined by my colleague from the police media unit, Julian Vicentini.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Jules, back from holidays, mate.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_06: Thanks, Nate.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_06: Great to be back with just some news headlines that have occurred through the week.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_06: So um an update into the murder investigation from the homicide squad, in which it will be alleged a uh 29-year-old man murdered his twin brother in a property out in Aurelia.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_06: So um that man has now been charged with murder and he's having his time before the courts.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_06: It will be alleged police received reports of the serious incident on Naiwe, and police attended the location and located the body of the 29-year-old man in the backyard.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_06: So that matter, as I just said, is going through the courts.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_06: Um another interesting one that's currently going through the courts, and that man is set to next appear today, Nate.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_06: It will be alleged that a it will be alleged an 18-year-old man who was in Iraq at the time conspired to orchestrate attacks on a number of illicit tobacco stores, arranging for the premises to be targeted by fire or other means of extortion.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_06: Um and on 1st of December 2025, uh, the man allegedly engaged an associate to firebomb a retail premises in Valdonus.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_06: A couple of weeks later, two individuals attended the premises, deliberately set fire to the building.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_06: All three were charged and convicted in relation to the incident.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a great outcome.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_06: And um on the 16th of December, some just not too long ago, the man from Dynella was arrested on his return back to Australia.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_06: He's charged with several offences, and as stated, he's back in court today.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_06: Um, a really interesting one for listeners as well.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_06: You should head to the Kimberley District Facebook page if you want to see some awesome pictures of a major seizure from a traffic stop in Broome, a major alcohol seizure.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_06: Um, police sees a significant quantity of alcohol allegedly destined for an unlawful sale and supply in the Kimberley region.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_06: Um, officers located, allegedly located 78 casks of wine and two bottles of spirit, two bottles of spirits in a vehicle on Broome Highway.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_06: And two people from Halls Creek have been charge, and they'll appear in court at a later date.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_06: But Nate, you would understand as well, being a copper, um, the seizure, the significant seizure this can have on the community and help people.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh without a doubt.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: And look, uh the Kimberley region, they do a great job up there.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, the taking that alcohol uh out of circulation from vulnerable communities is gonna have a huge benefit um in terms of reducing instances of uh family violence, anti-social behaviour and assaults.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, we we see these pictures of of vast quantities of alcohol being seized and destroyed and think that's wasteful, or you think about the the the harm that it's preventing um is is the end goal.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: So great job to the coppers up there in uh in Broome.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely great result.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much, Julian.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um maybe we'll get you back next week, maybe we won't, or we'll uh we'll have Claire again.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for uh thanks for joining us.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: Off the bench and happy to be here.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Jules.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much for listening to another episode of Confidential.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_04: Nate.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if this is my take on this, and I know this is an allegation before the courts, but if you were going to poison someone, surely you wouldn't you wouldn't choose to poison the chef of the meal that you've spiked with poison, right?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well they would know something isn't right, wouldn't they?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_04: That seems that seems maybe like not the best idea.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: But then hey, I think poisoning someone in general is probably a very, very bad idea.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's lucky it didn't end in worse uh a worse outcome.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully the victim is recovering well.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um Nate, history fact this week.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's uh you wouldn't sort of imagine this, but it relates to wood chips, Joey.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: In the mid-70s, two eco-radicals decided the most reasonable way to protest wood chip exports was to steal a car, grab a 303 rifle, and pack 1,000 sticks of gelignite into that car.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: Whoa.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: It gets better.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: They snuck into the Bunbury port in WA here and uh held the night watchman at gunpoint.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: They tied him up and they set three charges to blow machinery sky high.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: As they made their getaway in the watchman's own truck with him still inside, they kindly posted warning signs on the access road reading DANGER charges ahead.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: Before dumping their hostage 9Ks down the road.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: About 5 30 in the morning, charge number one detonated, causing around$300,000 worth of damage to a conveyor tower at the woodship plant.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure that was probably more in today's money.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: A lot more.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um charges two and three completely malfunctioned.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sergeant Jack Billing rushed in from Perth and he defused the remaining live bombs.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: It was a heroic feat feat that later earned him a promotion to assistant commissioner.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: Nate, you're never gonna believe this.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_04: I just realized I know exactly what you're talking about.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, not that there's this is pretty extraordinary out there, and I and probably testament to the the the absolute sieve that is my brain, but but I know this story because I've I've I've spoken with him.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: You've interviewed him.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: I've interviewed him.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well the story ends like this.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: A week later, police tracked the duo back to Mangamup, where they were found sitting on a massive stash of stolen explosives from Perth.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: Both earned a ten-year prison sentence and proved that while their gumption was high, their demolition skills needed work.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think um the tet the cautionary tale here is that they put a sign out earlier saying danger charges ahead.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they should have read that sign.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean they were charged.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a lot of danger.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: But uh no one was killed.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: No one was no one was killed, no one was killed.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I think um uh Jack was an absolute legend.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: Again, you know, we hear this all the time in this podcast, but people people can lawfully protest in this state, and we encourage that and acknowledge that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Please just don't bring dynamite in the street.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: Don't resort to violence or destruction of property.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: No, um yeah and and look, we I know it's not TNT, but here is to take us out of this show, uh, the WA police pipeline playing uh another A C D C song, Our Way to Hell.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is confidential.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Cheesy podcast theme music by Joey Cantzaro.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's join forces.wa.gov.au