Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / Herbal and Nutraceutical Solutions in the Current Healthcare Crisis with Jeffery A Johnson, PharmD | Holistic Pharmacy Podcast

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Herbal and Nutraceutical Solutions in the Current Healthcare Crisis with Jeffery A Johnson, PharmD | Holistic Pharmacy Podcast · Pharmacy Podcast Network

0:05
Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
0:09
Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the Pharmacy podcast Network.
0:27
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. I'm your host,
0:33
Speaker 2: Marina books of and I'm a functional medicine pharmacist in
0:36
Speaker 2: New York. I'm also a clinical herbalist and an integrative
0:40
Speaker 2: health coach specializing in mindfulness and empowerment. I'm on a
0:45
Speaker 2: mission to transform the way we approach healthcare by bridging
0:49
Speaker 2: the wisdom of traditional medicine with modern practice, and in
0:53
Speaker 2: this podcast, I will be highlighting guests who do just that.
0:58
Speaker 2: I'm constantly inspired by them and I know you will
1:01
Speaker 2: be as well.
1:05
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Holistic
1:08
Speaker 3: Pharmacy Podcast. I have a very special guest as usual
1:11
Speaker 3: for you all today.
1:13
Speaker 4: His name is doctor Jeffery A. Johnson.
1:16
Speaker 3: I hope I got that right, and he has a
1:18
Speaker 3: very interesting story about why he had to differentiate his
1:21
Speaker 3: name that I hope he'll get into. But just to
1:24
Speaker 3: introduce him briefly, he's a combat thirty year veteran US
1:28
Speaker 3: Armed Forces and he graduated BS farm in Purdue. He
1:33
Speaker 3: also earned his naturopathic doctor license, and he's a farm
1:38
Speaker 3: d as well, and he spent thirty plus years educating
1:41
Speaker 3: and consulting both fellow healthcare professionals as well as interested
1:46
Speaker 3: clients on the benefits and potential challenges of the employment
1:50
Speaker 3: of nutraceuticals as a viable adjunct to personal health care needs.
1:55
Speaker 3: Right now, he is post retiring and he's used these
2:01
Speaker 3: past eight years to continue this journey of educating and
2:04
Speaker 3: consulting in regards to nutraceuticals as well as overall good
2:07
Speaker 3: healthcare practices. So, without further ado, doctor Jeffery, welcome.
2:12
Speaker 5: Welcome, Thank you Marina, And it's a pleasure to have
2:15
Speaker 5: you guys, give me an opportunity just to just to talk.
2:19
Speaker 5: That's my lovely bride of forty seven years, Cindy would
2:21
Speaker 5: tell you, I'm usually very shy and withdrawing and I
2:25
Speaker 5: don't do these kind of things, which that's not true.
2:28
Speaker 6: But anyway, we'll drive on. It's really exciting to be with.
2:31
Speaker 5: You guys, and I hope I can cheer some enlightenment
2:35
Speaker 5: and we'll drive on from there.
2:37
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:37
Speaker 3: Well, you have such an interesting background and you've gotten
2:41
Speaker 3: yourself involved in a lot of different things. So I'm
2:44
Speaker 3: curious if you could shed some insight as to what
2:47
Speaker 3: got you into the armed forces and then into medicine.
2:51
Speaker 6: Well that's great.
2:52
Speaker 5: Well, first off, it's a lot of that lays on
2:55
Speaker 5: my dad because my dad was a World War Two veteran.
2:57
Speaker 6: He was a Pearl Harbor shurpvivor.
3:00
Speaker 5: And as growing up with my pop and I was
3:03
Speaker 5: called in Pops. Pops was very very supportive, very very patriotic,
3:07
Speaker 5: and I saw that growing up. So finally, when I
3:11
Speaker 5: was getting ready graduated from high school, I talked to
3:13
Speaker 5: Dad about maybe joining the art first Armed Forces, and
3:17
Speaker 5: so I waited a while, I got through pharmacy school
3:20
Speaker 5: and I joined the arms. I joined the Army, an
3:23
Speaker 5: Army National Guard in Indiana, and I did that for
3:25
Speaker 5: five years.
3:26
Speaker 6: And then after that I decided one I looked.
3:29
Speaker 5: Better in blue, and two I got tired of sleep
3:31
Speaker 5: on the ground, so I switched to the Air Force
3:33
Speaker 5: and I did twenty five years in the Air Force.
3:35
Speaker 5: And so as a pharmaceutical care provider in the Air Force,
3:39
Speaker 5: as some of my Air Force brothers and sisters out
3:41
Speaker 5: there and will tell you, we have a huge opportunity
3:46
Speaker 5: to do multidisciplinary work. And that was one of the
3:48
Speaker 5: things that really attracted me because I was I did
3:51
Speaker 5: civilian pharmacy four for a short while I was in
3:54
Speaker 5: the Guard, and I just I really did not feel
3:58
Speaker 5: like I had as much impact as the communities offered
4:00
Speaker 5: me in the Air Force, and so that's one reason
4:02
Speaker 5: I did that. But then as far as why I
4:04
Speaker 5: got into the nutraceutical realm and the dietary supplements in
4:08
Speaker 5: RBALS was that when I was stationed in Alaska, and
4:12
Speaker 5: this was from nineteen ninety two to ninety four, I
4:15
Speaker 5: just completed my MBA and I was looking for another
4:18
Speaker 5: challenge and one of the things that struck me was
4:21
Speaker 5: going into nutraceuticals and becoming an rbal or a nature
4:26
Speaker 5: path and that really fascinated me, and I started into
4:31
Speaker 5: that and did my degree.
4:34
Speaker 6: Naturalropathy. And once I got that done, I thought, you.
4:37
Speaker 5: Know, as a pharmacist, for doctors and fellow pharmacists and
4:41
Speaker 5: other healthcare providers to take it seriously. I thought it
4:44
Speaker 5: would be as to the credibility if I had my
4:47
Speaker 5: farm D. So I went to the University of Kansas
4:50
Speaker 5: on an online program and finished my farm D with that,
4:54
Speaker 5: and so that's kind of how that got me go
4:55
Speaker 5: because at that point, Marina, you know this very well.
4:59
Speaker 5: Back in the early nineties, we were looking at a
5:01
Speaker 5: nutraceutical market of only about nine million dollars, but you
5:05
Speaker 5: look at it today and it's up to ninety billion dollars.
5:09
Speaker 5: And I saw that wave coming and what I thought was, well,
5:12
Speaker 5: as pharmacists, because we're one of the most accessible healthcare providers,
5:17
Speaker 5: our patients are going to come to us and they're
5:19
Speaker 5: going to say, what do you think about this stuff?
5:22
Speaker 5: And for us as and no offense to any of
5:26
Speaker 5: our academia folks out there, but we don't focus on
5:32
Speaker 5: that aspect of pharmacy very much. And so that's where us,
5:36
Speaker 5: as both pharmacists and as verbalist, I think it behooves
5:41
Speaker 5: us to try to educate our fellow healthcare providers. And
5:44
Speaker 5: that's not just pharmacists, but that's that's all us. That's
5:47
Speaker 5: that multidisciplinary aspect. So that's one reason I got into that.
5:50
Speaker 5: And so I'll tell a quick funny story. One of
5:56
Speaker 5: my assignments was the Chief of Pharmacy Training, which at
5:59
Speaker 5: that time Air Force Pharmacy Training, which was stationed at
6:02
Speaker 5: Sheppard Air Force Base in Texas. And as I got
6:05
Speaker 5: that job.
6:06
Speaker 6: I had had.
6:06
Speaker 5: Really been doing a lot of work on doing education
6:09
Speaker 5: on nutraceuticals.
6:11
Speaker 6: And I'll never forget that.
6:12
Speaker 5: My my boss, her name will remain nameless, because she
6:15
Speaker 5: made me listening reminded me that I wasn't there to
6:19
Speaker 5: teach herbals. I was there to teach pharmacy. So but
6:24
Speaker 5: I was successful in adding one little block of training
6:27
Speaker 5: on dietary supplements and nutriceuticals.
6:31
Speaker 6: So it was it was kind of money.
6:33
Speaker 5: But I did not I did not disurbeyor I wasn't
6:35
Speaker 5: there to teach each dietary supplements. I was there to
6:39
Speaker 5: teach pharmacy, and that friend did but I was able
6:42
Speaker 5: to slip that into the to the regime of study.
6:48
Speaker 5: So that's kind of how I got into it. And uh,
6:51
Speaker 5: and that has has been a mainstay. In fact, I
6:53
Speaker 5: always kind of like to say I was, I was,
6:56
Speaker 5: I and I think I still am the only active
6:59
Speaker 5: duty verbal pharmacists that ever served in the armforces. Yeah,
7:05
Speaker 5: that's a bold claim. And I may have somebody, You
7:07
Speaker 5: may have somebody come back and say I know something
7:09
Speaker 5: about Colonel Johnson.
7:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, doctor Johnson, it sounds like you have a
7:19
Speaker 3: diverse background and definitely have added a ton of credibility
7:25
Speaker 3: to your work by getting the additional degrees that I
7:28
Speaker 3: feel like many people even today don't go out and get,
7:32
Speaker 3: you know, a second master's or another doctor or degree
7:36
Speaker 3: after they already have a professional license or degree of
7:39
Speaker 3: some sort.
7:39
Speaker 4: So I have to commend you because.
7:42
Speaker 3: It's a lot of effort, it's a lot of funds, right,
7:45
Speaker 3: it's a lot of time to get all of that
7:49
Speaker 3: on board, and it does add to your expertise and
7:55
Speaker 3: whenever you are in a space where other people have
7:58
Speaker 3: degrees and licenses, that gives you a voice, right, yes.
8:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually, I really really appreciate that.
8:04
Speaker 3: And I think what you're speaking to as far as
8:07
Speaker 3: why you got that additional licensure or degrees or titles
8:12
Speaker 3: is to add to your scope of practice as well.
8:16
Speaker 6: Yes, right, absolutely, yeah, and.
8:18
Speaker 4: Even the reason you got into the military space.
8:20
Speaker 3: So I'm curious if you could share with us for
8:23
Speaker 3: many listeners that may not know what the differences and
8:27
Speaker 3: what the difference in.
8:28
Speaker 4: Scope may be, and that attracted you and.
8:32
Speaker 3: Allowed you to practice at the top of your license
8:35
Speaker 3: in the military, could you tell us.
8:37
Speaker 4: What that is?
8:39
Speaker 5: Sure, So what's interesting is and let me do it
8:42
Speaker 5: like a legal block, and I'll start at the very beginning,
8:45
Speaker 5: because our basic pharmacist within the military, they're just very
8:50
Speaker 5: very similar to what we have on the civilian side,
8:53
Speaker 5: their farmacist, I mean, their primary job nowt on are
8:55
Speaker 5: the most significant differences between civilian pharmacies and a military
9:00
Speaker 5: pharmacist is that are pharmacy technicians, which that's what I
9:04
Speaker 5: was in charge of training those for one period.
9:08
Speaker 6: They have a lot more.
9:11
Speaker 5: Scope of care in the military than we do on
9:15
Speaker 5: the civilian side. So for me to do my job
9:17
Speaker 5: as a military pharmacist, my pharmacy technicians work closely, I
9:22
Speaker 5: mean shoulder to shoulder with me. So in a lot
9:25
Speaker 5: of cases, as everyone knows, I don't want to get
9:27
Speaker 5: too basic, but we know that there's bagally seven steps
9:30
Speaker 5: in filling prescriptions. My pharmacy technicians, which were very very
9:35
Speaker 5: well trained in the Air Force and any army.
9:37
Speaker 6: As well as well as the Navy and the other branches.
9:39
Speaker 5: So I don't want to slight anybody, but they're very
9:42
Speaker 5: very well trained, and so they would pretty much handle
9:46
Speaker 5: six of the seven steps and the seventh step of
9:50
Speaker 5: the pharmacists being the final checker. Even though we did
9:53
Speaker 5: have some senior technicians that were qualified under the pharmacists.
9:57
Speaker 6: To do additional checking with you.
10:00
Speaker 5: That really helped me as a clinician have that ability
10:03
Speaker 5: to go out and work more with the multidisciplinary docs, nurses, nutritionists,
10:08
Speaker 5: whoever you want to mention, And that really helped because
10:11
Speaker 5: I could trust that my pharmacy technicians were taking care
10:14
Speaker 5: of business and they didn't need me to be standing
10:17
Speaker 5: there staring over their shoulder because I knew they were
10:20
Speaker 5: well trained.
10:21
Speaker 6: So that's what you basic see. But then as you
10:23
Speaker 6: go up the line.
10:24
Speaker 5: As a pharmacist and you become more senior, you really.
10:28
Speaker 6: Do start to get more involved on the clinical side
10:31
Speaker 6: of the house.
10:32
Speaker 5: And so like, for example, pharmacists run clinic, so we
10:34
Speaker 5: have those in the military, and of course that again
10:37
Speaker 5: depends on our technicians to be taking care of the
10:41
Speaker 5: dispensing function as we're taking care of the clinical function.
10:44
Speaker 5: But I think it's critical for me as pharmacists to
10:47
Speaker 5: understand that dispensing function because for us to trust that
10:51
Speaker 5: our technicians are doing it properly, we have to understand
10:54
Speaker 5: what they're doing.
10:54
Speaker 6: So that was kind of that basics that I got
10:56
Speaker 6: started with.
10:57
Speaker 5: But as I moved up the line from captain, the major, major,
11:01
Speaker 5: lieutenant colonel, lieutenant colonel to colonel. It became more obvious
11:04
Speaker 5: that and clear that I needed to be more engaged
11:08
Speaker 5: on the clinical side of the house. And that's okay
11:10
Speaker 5: because I knew my text were taking care of the
11:12
Speaker 5: dispensing side.
11:14
Speaker 6: And so that's what started to happen.
11:15
Speaker 5: And then, as I mentioned earlier, one of the reasons
11:18
Speaker 5: I wanted to see how we could better integrate traditional
11:23
Speaker 5: medication within the military space was that as a combat pharmacist,
11:29
Speaker 5: one of the things that I saw was that sometimes
11:32
Speaker 5: due to the supply chain, you may find yourself where
11:35
Speaker 5: you're not able to get the conventional medication just doe
11:38
Speaker 5: the supplies, so you may have to look at are
11:40
Speaker 5: there ways for us to use traditional ones in place
11:43
Speaker 5: of that? And that again, as you were mentioning, that
11:47
Speaker 5: kind of helped my credibility to say, look, the reason
11:50
Speaker 5: I think we need to have let's just say garlic,
11:53
Speaker 5: using garlic as a adjunct to antibiotic therapy. We know
11:58
Speaker 5: garlic has alice and alice sellon is very very closely
12:02
Speaker 5: related to pendent selling. Therefore, we know that garlic has
12:05
Speaker 5: some antibiotic properties. Any herbalissen marine. I know you know
12:10
Speaker 5: this to be true. We understand that there's that line
12:12
Speaker 5: of demarcation that there may be things we can say
12:16
Speaker 5: that are adjunct, but we also know that there are
12:19
Speaker 5: things that a herbal may not necessarily be able to
12:22
Speaker 5: treat on its own, and having that conventional component really
12:26
Speaker 5: makes sense, and that's where that integration starts to come in.
12:29
Speaker 5: So as a degree pharmacist, as a degreed herbalist, and
12:34
Speaker 5: with that background going on, it really did help me
12:37
Speaker 5: explain to providers and the whole healthcare provider a realm
12:42
Speaker 5: of why I think adding one of those supplements would
12:46
Speaker 5: be a good thing a nutraceutical and.
12:48
Speaker 6: I think that really is done.
12:50
Speaker 5: And so as I've gone along in my career and
12:53
Speaker 5: now being on this side of being retired, even though
12:55
Speaker 5: I no longer wear the uniform, I'm still a very
12:57
Speaker 5: supportive of what's.
12:58
Speaker 6: Going on within our enforcers.
13:00
Speaker 5: It still helps for me to be able to reach
13:03
Speaker 5: out to my network and say, hey, here's where I
13:05
Speaker 5: think these new products might be.
13:07
Speaker 6: Of these products, even though they may.
13:08
Speaker 5: Be new to the market, they may be really old
13:11
Speaker 5: and they've been around for a long time, how they
13:14
Speaker 5: can integrate into that traditional conventional space. Does that make sense?
13:18
Speaker 5: And so that's kind of where that happens. And so
13:21
Speaker 5: the big change between what I see in civilian pharmacy
13:25
Speaker 5: and military pharmacy is that because of how our military
13:30
Speaker 5: pharmacy system has been developed, the pharmacist actually has a
13:34
Speaker 5: lot of opportunity to interact with the clinical side of
13:37
Speaker 5: the house and not be overly concerned about the dispensing side.
13:42
Speaker 5: We still need to be concerned because that's part of
13:43
Speaker 5: our row, but knowing that we have that trusted system
13:48
Speaker 5: of senior technicians excuse me, handling that it really freezes
13:52
Speaker 5: us up.
13:53
Speaker 6: Does that make a lot of sense? I hope it does. Yeah.
13:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, And just like one more point on this, who
14:01
Speaker 3: are the population that you're treating and what kind of
14:04
Speaker 3: care are you providing both in the pharmacy space and
14:08
Speaker 3: also in the multidisciplinary team, and how do you all interact.
14:12
Speaker 5: So this is where in a lot of ways, the
14:15
Speaker 5: military population is very very mirroring the civilian population because
14:21
Speaker 5: we're dealing with all the very similar scenarios that our
14:24
Speaker 5: civilian population is caring for. So diabetics and you know,
14:29
Speaker 5: used to when I first joined the military, if you
14:31
Speaker 5: have diabetes, you cannot belong. But we've come that way
14:35
Speaker 5: with new technologies and new medications that are diabetic control.
14:39
Speaker 5: Diabetic is very very very similar to everybody else. And
14:43
Speaker 5: so as long as you're doing that, and that's more
14:45
Speaker 5: of those population asthmatics used to Again, as asthmatics could
14:49
Speaker 5: not deploy because if you think about it, in a
14:51
Speaker 5: deployed situation, let's just use the Middle East, You're in
14:54
Speaker 5: a very dusty environment. So for an asthmatic, that could
14:57
Speaker 5: be very problematic. Whereas now were some of the new
15:00
Speaker 5: medications we have treating a dot on asthmatic, we can
15:06
Speaker 5: get them through that. And so we see a lot
15:08
Speaker 5: of the they are very very very same disease states
15:12
Speaker 5: that we're seeing within the civilian population and.
15:14
Speaker 6: The military population.
15:16
Speaker 5: I will add one of the things now where were
15:18
Speaker 5: kind of we'll do this a little bit more. But
15:20
Speaker 5: one of the things I'm working with right now with
15:21
Speaker 5: one of my clients, one of my.
15:24
Speaker 6: Consulting clients.
15:25
Speaker 5: They're the company is called eye Health, and they have
15:28
Speaker 5: a product line called Azo and Azo's really and I
15:31
Speaker 5: know a lot of the older pharmacists out there, and
15:33
Speaker 5: I'm think in fact, you're not an.
15:35
Speaker 6: Older pharmacist, Maren, but I know you know it.
15:37
Speaker 5: The Azo product line is really focused on urinary track
15:40
Speaker 5: infections and vatteral track infections. But one of the things
15:43
Speaker 5: that's really fascinating is is that I just read a
15:45
Speaker 5: study just yesterday that was done in two thousand and
15:49
Speaker 5: three looking at the prevalence of UTIs and vtis within
15:53
Speaker 5: a military female population. And what they found was, and
15:57
Speaker 5: again this is two thousand and three numbers, so my
15:59
Speaker 5: guests would be a little bit higher today in twenty
16:02
Speaker 5: twenty five, was that thirty percent of the female troop
16:07
Speaker 5: population would suffer at some point in time with a
16:11
Speaker 5: urinary track or dual track infection.
16:13
Speaker 6: Now that is that a big deal?
16:15
Speaker 5: Well, especially today since we have more of our female
16:20
Speaker 5: troops in a combat role. It could be because there's
16:24
Speaker 5: a thing called non disease non battle injury. Okay, so
16:28
Speaker 5: that's in You got to excuse me, I love acronyms.
16:32
Speaker 6: As an NDBI.
16:33
Speaker 5: Okay. So a disease non battle injury can effectively take
16:38
Speaker 5: a troop out.
16:39
Speaker 6: Of their ability to do their combat role.
16:41
Speaker 5: So if you have a unit, let's just say it's
16:43
Speaker 5: ten ten people, and you have thirty percent of those
16:48
Speaker 5: that can't function because they have an urinary track infection
16:52
Speaker 5: that reduces them down to seventy percent that can do their.
16:55
Speaker 6: Job in combat.
16:57
Speaker 5: Well, that becomes what we call combat in a thing,
17:00
Speaker 5: because if they're down to only seventy percent of their
17:03
Speaker 5: people and they're going to get into let's unfortunately say
17:07
Speaker 5: a firefight, if they lose one more person or two
17:10
Speaker 5: more people, they're down to fifty percent and they're not
17:12
Speaker 5: able to do their job to that where for me
17:16
Speaker 5: as a consultant, I want to consult the higher ups
17:20
Speaker 5: and say, look, we may be able to prevent that
17:22
Speaker 5: thirty percent by using traditional medications i e. Like AZO
17:28
Speaker 5: to help prevent that from happening, and even to the
17:33
Speaker 5: point of with some of the testing that come through
17:36
Speaker 5: the ASER product line and those kind of things, that
17:38
Speaker 5: the troop could have an early warning that they're they're
17:41
Speaker 5: developing a UTI or BPI and treat it before it
17:44
Speaker 5: gets bad.
17:45
Speaker 6: That makes sense. So that's that's.
17:47
Speaker 5: Kind of the areas I find myself in, and I
17:49
Speaker 5: get really excited about that.
17:51
Speaker 6: I can't tell because I think that's.
17:52
Speaker 5: One of those things that as farmsists, especially as military parts,
17:57
Speaker 5: is that we want to try. We say, we have
17:59
Speaker 5: a phrase for the medics in the military as we
18:02
Speaker 5: serve that others may live. And that's one of those
18:06
Speaker 5: things that we love to do and that's part of
18:07
Speaker 5: what I do try to do as a consultre is
18:10
Speaker 5: try to help them have a better awareness of things
18:13
Speaker 5: that are out there, traditional medications, that nutraceuticals.
18:17
Speaker 6: That would be a very positive adjunct to the convention.
18:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for that.
18:24
Speaker 3: I think the concept of scope of practice is so
18:28
Speaker 3: important obviously as a way to delineate and stay in
18:31
Speaker 3: our leans number one, and also legally speaking, we have
18:37
Speaker 3: earned a license or the ambility to practice in a
18:41
Speaker 3: certain way. But I think when it comes to pharmacy practice,
18:45
Speaker 3: when we actually look at the law, there could be
18:48
Speaker 3: some leeway in interpreting what our scope allows us to do.
18:51
Speaker 3: And yet we're not granted providers status, right, and so
18:56
Speaker 3: there's a number of advocacy happening on that front. But
19:00
Speaker 3: specifically in the recommending a therapy right, a therapeutic agent,
19:07
Speaker 3: we cannot prescribe it. We cannot prescribe something that's prescription
19:12
Speaker 3: designated right or you know, diagnosed. We can't diagnose somebody. However,
19:18
Speaker 3: when it comes to dispensing or being in a retail
19:22
Speaker 3: pharmacy setting, right, civilian or military or what have you,
19:25
Speaker 3: or any other type of pharmacy setting, there's nothing preventing
19:28
Speaker 3: us from educating and making your recommendation on self care.
19:33
Speaker 3: You know, this is kind of under our consulting as
19:35
Speaker 3: a pharmacist, and every time somebody picks up a medication,
19:40
Speaker 3: we actually have the ability and also.
19:46
Speaker 4: The right to and we're expected to.
19:49
Speaker 3: Do a consultation. Right, this is definitely under our scope.
19:54
Speaker 3: And now there's different state restrictions with some of the
19:56
Speaker 3: things that we are able to counsel on, but this
20:00
Speaker 3: is an essential pharmacist skill, so absolute a lot of
20:04
Speaker 3: times that can incorporate lifestyle changes, dietary changes that you
20:08
Speaker 3: would do in addition to taking medication, because we know
20:12
Speaker 3: if you prescribe something for asthma, for diabetes, we understand
20:16
Speaker 3: the pathology, we understand what are the other things.
20:18
Speaker 6: That have to be done?
20:20
Speaker 4: Right, so.
20:23
Speaker 3: Why are we not consulting more and counseling more on
20:28
Speaker 3: those areas which medicine says they are the you know
20:33
Speaker 3: step zero one and two, They still have to be done, not.
20:37
Speaker 4: Just jumping to a drug or a surgery or something
20:39
Speaker 4: like that. And even if you have to.
20:40
Speaker 3: Add it, you still shouldn't be skipping steps, you know,
20:44
Speaker 3: zero through three.
20:45
Speaker 4: Right, let's say yes.
20:46
Speaker 6: Yes.
20:47
Speaker 3: And so when an herb or a natural substance or
20:51
Speaker 3: supplement or even if we can combine herbs as a
20:55
Speaker 3: spectrum of food, right, because there are a food substance.
21:00
Speaker 3: Times it goes more in the spectrum of food. Sometimes
21:02
Speaker 3: it goes into the spectrum of medicine and becoming a
21:06
Speaker 3: little bit more narrow therapeutic index. Right, yes, So how
21:10
Speaker 3: come you know other countries and I've visited a lot.
21:13
Speaker 3: I am from another country, and I understand that pharmacy
21:17
Speaker 3: practice is different in other countries, and a lot of
21:20
Speaker 3: times those pharmacists are trained on natural medicine or that
21:24
Speaker 3: is part of the scope or that is part of
21:26
Speaker 3: the retail setting. And here we have only specialty pharmacies
21:30
Speaker 3: that seem to have to have additional training that's not
21:34
Speaker 3: included in their pharmacy practice or schooling. Rather, and we
21:39
Speaker 3: kind of have to wing it and research it on
21:43
Speaker 3: our own or take additional degrees in order to become
21:47
Speaker 3: experts in this space.
21:49
Speaker 4: So why do you think.
21:49
Speaker 6: That is well? And Marita, that's an awesome question. I'll
21:54
Speaker 6: tell you.
21:54
Speaker 5: First off, I'm going to compliment you because you know,
21:57
Speaker 5: you and I connected on a podcast since you did
22:01
Speaker 5: Probably Don't Plose two year ago, and it was about
22:04
Speaker 5: talking about the microbiome and the pharmacist that was talking
22:07
Speaker 5: about that was fascinating and that kind of that rejuvenated
22:11
Speaker 5: my interest. I mean, I've never lost it, and I've
22:15
Speaker 5: continued through my consulting to try to do it as
22:17
Speaker 5: best I can. But as you well know, unfortunately in
22:20
Speaker 5: the American healthcare system, nutraceuticals and traditional practice have kind
22:27
Speaker 5: of taken a far back seat in the bus. Whereas
22:31
Speaker 5: I think one of the things you're doing, which again.
22:33
Speaker 6: I compliment you, and I'm going.
22:35
Speaker 5: To put a plug in through your podcast today at
22:37
Speaker 5: three o'clock even though no one's going to hear it
22:40
Speaker 5: until three months later. But doing the RBAL Academy and
22:43
Speaker 5: allowing those folks to have that platform, to utilize your
22:47
Speaker 5: platform to do those kind of things, those are one
22:50
Speaker 5: of the ways we start to change that narrative of
22:54
Speaker 5: us being in the back of the bus doesn't mean
22:56
Speaker 5: we need to be in the front of the bus.
22:57
Speaker 5: I mean, i'd be happy with the second or third seat,
23:00
Speaker 5: but having that opportunity and doing these kinds of things
23:03
Speaker 5: are one of the ways we start to change that.
23:06
Speaker 6: The second way is looking.
23:07
Speaker 5: I mean, one of the countries that just amazes me
23:09
Speaker 5: at how much they use nutraceuticals is Germany because that
23:13
Speaker 5: is part of their national formula.
23:15
Speaker 6: And again, I think that's one of those ones.
23:17
Speaker 5: As healthcare providers, and even though you and I as
23:20
Speaker 5: herbal pharmacists don't are considered that within the American health
23:25
Speaker 5: care system, we are and there it is we are.
23:28
Speaker 5: So we continue to do that and present ourselves in
23:32
Speaker 5: those venues in that light. Eventually, sooner or later, they're
23:37
Speaker 5: going to say, Okay, there we go. You know, it
23:40
Speaker 5: kind of reminds me of when I first got into
23:43
Speaker 5: the military that PAS, physician assistants and nurse practitioners were
23:49
Speaker 5: not considered providers at the time. Now PAS and nurse
23:52
Speaker 5: practitioners have continued to fight that fight and finally are.
23:56
Speaker 6: Recognized as providers. We have to do the same thing.
24:00
Speaker 5: We have to take a page out of their playbook
24:02
Speaker 5: and continue to fight for that and we are. And
24:04
Speaker 5: that's part of what's going on right now is with
24:07
Speaker 5: us doing these kind of things, and you know as
24:09
Speaker 5: well as I do that there are other healthcare providers
24:12
Speaker 5: that put into your podcast and listen to what's going on.
24:16
Speaker 5: They may not be vocal at this point, but sooner
24:18
Speaker 5: or later they will be. And we know as pharmacists
24:21
Speaker 5: when you look at what I call the four legged
24:25
Speaker 5: healthcare stool, we are part of that. And you know,
24:28
Speaker 5: you've got your you've got your patient, your provider, us
24:31
Speaker 5: and then of course kind of remember logistics because logistics
24:34
Speaker 5: is critical because if we can't get the product, then
24:36
Speaker 5: we can't use it. But you made a really good
24:39
Speaker 5: point about how we know as at this current time,
24:42
Speaker 5: there are some states that give us minor prescriptive opportunities.
24:47
Speaker 5: We did that in the Air Force. There are some
24:49
Speaker 5: things and it depends base to base from a policy perspective.
24:54
Speaker 5: Most of the time within the Air Force regulations or
24:57
Speaker 5: whatever brands you will look at, farmacists are not get
25:00
Speaker 5: in that prescriptive ability. But as we have started standing
25:04
Speaker 5: up pharmacists run clinics, they have given us limited prescriptive ability,
25:09
Speaker 5: which is.
25:09
Speaker 6: That that's a good step and we just have to
25:12
Speaker 6: continue to do that.
25:13
Speaker 5: We know within our scope as consulting with our patients
25:17
Speaker 5: or with fellow providers, we can't do recommendations. And I
25:21
Speaker 5: make it clear whenever either I consult a client or
25:23
Speaker 5: consult a potential patient that I cannot prescribe. When I'm
25:28
Speaker 5: sharing with them, it's recommendations, and that they should really
25:32
Speaker 5: try to discern that. I'll give them as much information
25:35
Speaker 5: as I can. I will also say, if you want
25:37
Speaker 5: to go back to your primary healthcare provider and have
25:41
Speaker 5: us do a consultation with each other, more than happy
25:43
Speaker 5: to do that. And I think that's one of those
25:46
Speaker 5: ways again we continue to do that. I think you're
25:48
Speaker 5: absolutely right. It's on the one hand, it's kind of
25:51
Speaker 5: sad that as pharmacists were not.
25:55
Speaker 6: Given the same I don't want to call.
25:58
Speaker 5: It respect necessarily, but I think that's kind of along
26:00
Speaker 5: the line the same understand.
26:02
Speaker 6: I'll use understanding.
26:03
Speaker 5: I think that's better as a healthcare provider because we
26:05
Speaker 5: are part of the healthcare provider team and we are
26:08
Speaker 5: healthcare providers in our own right, and so I think
26:11
Speaker 5: having that understanding is we go a long way in
26:15
Speaker 5: helping the patient. Overall, helping the patient, because that's what
26:18
Speaker 5: we're really all in the business for, is to help
26:20
Speaker 5: the patient.
26:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And you know what, I'm more than happy
26:25
Speaker 3: to stay in my lane, so to speak, and not
26:28
Speaker 3: have prescriptive authority at all. However, I do think that
26:32
Speaker 3: as a healthcare team player, we should all have the
26:37
Speaker 3: ability to educate one another and our patients on the
26:40
Speaker 3: topics that I mentioned before, lifestyle, diet, earth, alternative therapy, standard,
26:47
Speaker 3: conventional therapy, you know. And I think it fits into
26:50
Speaker 3: everybody's scope to do that. And even as a prescriber,
26:54
Speaker 3: there's nothing to force the patient on acting on that
26:57
Speaker 3: prescription and going to fill it. Thing.
27:00
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, we're all in this.
27:03
Speaker 3: We know this is all risk versus benefit, and we
27:06
Speaker 3: don't have all the answers. We study as much as
27:09
Speaker 3: we can, right and I think just listening to one
27:13
Speaker 3: another and our expertise is key. And it's an asset.
27:17
Speaker 3: I don't think it should be seen as a threat.
27:19
Speaker 3: I think it should be seen as an asset.
27:21
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you just said a really key word there.
27:24
Speaker 6: We are not a threat.
27:26
Speaker 5: My first presentation I ever did on nutraceuticals was in
27:31
Speaker 5: Alaska in Anchorage, Alaska. I was a young captain with
27:35
Speaker 5: the Air Force at the time. I got approval for
27:37
Speaker 5: my commander to do this presentation. It was to a
27:40
Speaker 5: group of nurses and so, you know, that was very
27:44
Speaker 5: interesting because it was my very first ever presentation on nutraceuticals,
27:50
Speaker 5: and I can tell you I was nervous as a
27:52
Speaker 5: kavanon a tin rook as it just was like, oh,
27:54
Speaker 5: my goodness, you know, how am I going to present myself?
27:58
Speaker 5: But it was It was really good and from there
28:00
Speaker 5: I continue to be able to present to fellow providers,
28:04
Speaker 5: not just pharmacy, about what goes on when we're trying
28:08
Speaker 5: to integrate traditional medications with conventional medications. So that's really
28:13
Speaker 5: been exciting and I think you just nailed it. I mean,
28:16
Speaker 5: we just have to continue to put that word out there.
28:19
Speaker 6: And as you well.
28:21
Speaker 5: Know, Marie, because you are one as yourself, we have
28:24
Speaker 5: to find influencers that can help us along that pathway
28:28
Speaker 5: back in one of the things I'm I'm excited here
28:31
Speaker 5: in the next couple of weeks, I'll be talking to
28:34
Speaker 5: two pharmacists I've got to hear present at Ancestor and
28:41
Speaker 5: ANCESTRYPJ either it doesn't matter, but these theo pharmacists are
28:45
Speaker 5: really working within sports medicine and as they were doing
28:49
Speaker 5: their presentation. It was fascinating because one of the things
28:52
Speaker 5: they kept talking about was as they've gotten into sports
28:56
Speaker 5: medicine as pharmacists, is they're helping athletes identify what both
29:03
Speaker 5: traditional and conventional ways can they enhance their performance without
29:07
Speaker 5: getting themselves in trouble.
29:09
Speaker 6: So they're looking at that and it was really.
29:11
Speaker 5: Interesting because one of the things they talked about was
29:14
Speaker 5: one of the things they counsel with their athletes is
29:17
Speaker 5: there are certain products that could affect them in a
29:21
Speaker 5: negative way and make them unable to participate in their sport. Okay, well,
29:27
Speaker 5: for me, as an Air Force pharmacist, one of the
29:31
Speaker 5: things we look at we call it UNIF and what
29:33
Speaker 5: a d NIF is. It means that you're not able
29:35
Speaker 5: to fly, or if you're a security forces you're not
29:39
Speaker 5: able to carry a weapon because whatever it was you
29:41
Speaker 5: took could affect your overall mental capability at that point.
29:46
Speaker 6: And so it was fascinating to listen and talk to it.
29:49
Speaker 5: So I went up and talked to Matthew and said, look,
29:51
Speaker 5: what you're talking about is I know there's tons of
29:54
Speaker 5: research in the Air Force. It talks about a very
29:56
Speaker 5: similar thing where you're talking about they can't participate in
29:59
Speaker 5: their sport. I'm talking about the pilot can't fly, and
30:02
Speaker 5: so that was really fascinating. So we made a link
30:04
Speaker 5: with that, and so we're going to have a discussion
30:08
Speaker 5: here in a couple of weeks along out further line
30:11
Speaker 5: because I'm hoping possibly we can do some joint research
30:15
Speaker 5: on the comparison between an athlete unable to do their
30:19
Speaker 5: job and a pilot or security forces even an army
30:23
Speaker 5: ground pounder being able to carry a weapon because it's
30:25
Speaker 5: something they could.
30:27
Speaker 6: So it's kind of fastening stuff. But that's the kind
30:29
Speaker 6: of thing we have to find as well.
30:30
Speaker 5: And you know that we just have to find those
30:33
Speaker 5: areas that we can join in and say, hey, let
30:35
Speaker 5: me bring my expertise to the table and help you
30:38
Speaker 5: see a little bit broader viewpoint of what you're already
30:41
Speaker 5: looking at.
30:44
Speaker 4: Yeah.
30:44
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think we have so many skills that we
30:47
Speaker 3: learn as pharmacists that we can transfer it in a
30:51
Speaker 3: lot of unique and amazing ways. And I really love
30:56
Speaker 3: seeing what other pharmacists are doing a lot of them
30:59
Speaker 3: are on this show.
31:00
Speaker 4: So I am really.
31:03
Speaker 3: Really looking forward to continuing to see people's advances and
31:08
Speaker 3: how they push our degree and our profession forward. Now,
31:12
Speaker 3: we talked a little bit about how scope can be
31:15
Speaker 3: a little bit problematic and integrating right in this traditional
31:21
Speaker 3: and conventional model. Now, the other thing that I personally
31:25
Speaker 3: see as a big, big problem is the business model
31:29
Speaker 3: of healthcare where we have payers and they're the biggest
31:33
Speaker 3: players as far as what actually gets pushed forward, and
31:37
Speaker 3: that we have the pharmaceutical companies that are naming the
31:42
Speaker 3: prices right and then having contract with those payers, and
31:46
Speaker 3: then it has a way to get dispensed and retailed,
31:49
Speaker 3: and there's coupons, and there's back end deals and things
31:54
Speaker 3: like this, and it just makes it very very confusing.
31:57
Speaker 3: And that also doesn't allow a person to have full agency.
32:04
Speaker 4: What prescription or.
32:06
Speaker 3: Recommendation they would like to follow through with if money
32:10
Speaker 3: is involved, right, and something's not covered, something is not
32:14
Speaker 3: a prescriptive item, something's not on formula. All of these
32:18
Speaker 3: are different challenges, and what do you see as one
32:22
Speaker 3: of the biggest challenges in having a more integrated.
32:27
Speaker 5: So that's a great question. I'm going to share a
32:31
Speaker 5: real quick story. So I was a civilian pharmacist for
32:34
Speaker 5: about eight years, have my own mind, own pharmacy with
32:38
Speaker 5: a fellow pharmacists for a couple of years. And one
32:40
Speaker 5: of the things that got so frustrating for me, and
32:42
Speaker 5: it's one reason I finally went back into the military
32:46
Speaker 5: and went to work for the VA for a short while,
32:50
Speaker 5: was that the third party payer. I got so frustrated
32:53
Speaker 5: with that because, as you well know, when you're only
32:55
Speaker 5: going to give you a dollar and a half to
32:57
Speaker 5: two dollars or two fifty for your pharmacy skills, you're
33:00
Speaker 5: going but I'm worth more than that, and the patient
33:04
Speaker 5: gets more from me than a dollar fifty per prescription
33:06
Speaker 5: or two dollars or whatever it is now, I mean,
33:09
Speaker 5: that's craziest and that really frustrated me. And that's one
33:12
Speaker 5: reason I finally I found myself very comfortable within the
33:17
Speaker 5: VA and military space because.
33:19
Speaker 6: I didn't have to worry about that. That's on the
33:21
Speaker 6: administration side.
33:22
Speaker 5: If they want to try and collect from Medicare or
33:24
Speaker 5: Medicaid whatever, I don't care. It's not me.
33:28
Speaker 6: Having to do that. And that may have been.
33:32
Speaker 5: An infantile way to get away from it, but it
33:34
Speaker 5: worked because I did it for thirty years and didn't
33:37
Speaker 5: have to worry about that. Now today, unfortunately, I think
33:40
Speaker 5: my military farms is kind of happened to deal with
33:42
Speaker 5: it these days, not to the extent we did as
33:45
Speaker 5: civilian farms is, but still they're dealing with that. So anyway,
33:48
Speaker 5: to get back to your question, I think and I
33:51
Speaker 5: will say one more thing. What's interesting is I've gone
33:53
Speaker 5: to APHA's American Farms Associations meeting. Oh guys, you know,
33:58
Speaker 5: probably once. I think I only missed like five or
34:02
Speaker 5: six in the past forty years. And so what's interesting
34:06
Speaker 5: is what they were talking about forty years ago, of
34:10
Speaker 5: us getting paid as pharmacists for what we do as
34:13
Speaker 5: healthcare providers. They're still talking about the same thing. I mean,
34:17
Speaker 5: this last meeting I had was, which is just in
34:19
Speaker 5: March or twenty five, still talking the same thing.
34:23
Speaker 6: And it's fascinating to me.
34:25
Speaker 5: To think, Okay, you guys been talking about this now
34:28
Speaker 5: for almost fifty years and nothing has changed. So to me,
34:33
Speaker 5: that means and I'm not bashing on APHA, but at
34:36
Speaker 5: the same time, it's like we clearly haven't found the
34:41
Speaker 5: key yet to open that door to get that goal on.
34:43
Speaker 5: I mean, there is some positive movement along that line,
34:47
Speaker 5: but again, I think it's very similar to what you
34:49
Speaker 5: asked earlier. It is that we just have to continue
34:53
Speaker 5: to thump that drum and say, look, we bring a
34:56
Speaker 5: lot to the table. One of the things I've always
34:58
Speaker 5: told young pharmacists that I I've interviewed to come into
35:01
Speaker 5: the military is the fact that we have such an opportunity,
35:05
Speaker 5: but we have to beat the drum. We can't just
35:08
Speaker 5: sit behind the pharmacy counter and count lick and stick
35:12
Speaker 5: and hand it out the window and think that's going
35:13
Speaker 5: to change things. We have to be the ones that
35:16
Speaker 5: stand up and say, oh, by the way, I can
35:19
Speaker 5: do that. And that's what I've seen. I mean, I
35:22
Speaker 5: know some pharmacists within the Air Force system that are
35:25
Speaker 5: doing some phenomenal not just Air Force across the DoD
35:30
Speaker 5: that are doing some phenomenal non traditional pharmacy jobs. They're
35:34
Speaker 5: not pharmacy jobs, but they're doing them as pharmacists because
35:37
Speaker 5: of the skill set that we bring to bear on them,
35:40
Speaker 5: not just within the clinical realm, but also within the
35:44
Speaker 5: business administration realm. Because we understand that one young pharmacist,
35:48
Speaker 5: a young captain commander who I had a conversation with
35:52
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks ago, he's doing a job that
35:56
Speaker 5: you would never think a pharmacist would do. But the
35:59
Speaker 5: reason she got hired for that is is because she's
36:02
Speaker 5: a problem solver, and that's what we pharmacists do.
36:05
Speaker 6: We solve problems.
36:07
Speaker 5: And she's able to take that skill that she's developed
36:11
Speaker 5: as a pharmacist and apply it to a much broader,
36:15
Speaker 5: significant scope. I can't go into details because it's a
36:18
Speaker 5: classified mission, but it's phenomenal to see what she's doing.
36:21
Speaker 6: I mean, she got me fired up.
36:23
Speaker 5: I was almost ready to call my recruver back and say, hey,
36:25
Speaker 5: I want to come back in.
36:26
Speaker 6: I can't, I'm too old. But that's beside. But it
36:31
Speaker 6: was pretty cool.
36:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate your perspective on this, And I'm going
36:37
Speaker 3: to give a shout out to one of my friends,
36:39
Speaker 3: doctor Lauren Cassel, who is a leader in the functional
36:42
Speaker 3: pharmacy space, that talks about her own experience wanting to
36:47
Speaker 3: bring in a more integrative model into a big retailer
36:52
Speaker 3: and then being told that this is a direct competition
36:56
Speaker 3: with their existing model. Right when we are stimizing patient
37:01
Speaker 3: care with cheaper, available, sustainable models through diet and lifestyle
37:06
Speaker 3: and herbs, this cuts down perhaps and de prescribes their
37:11
Speaker 3: medications and lessens the volume of prescriptions that we're now
37:16
Speaker 3: feeling for this population, which is in direct detriment to
37:20
Speaker 3: such a business model. And this goes exactly with us
37:23
Speaker 3: not getting paid for consulting or counseling services, right and
37:27
Speaker 3: just getting the dispensing fees. And we've been talking about
37:31
Speaker 3: that as well, what we're actually charging our fees for.
37:36
Speaker 4: So where do you see us going with this?
37:39
Speaker 3: How do we solve this and continue to create this
37:42
Speaker 3: integrat of care.
37:43
Speaker 5: And I think that's a really really good segue because
37:47
Speaker 5: I think, and I'm going to call it med con
37:50
Speaker 5: recon What I'm talking about there is medication reconciliation. And
37:54
Speaker 5: I really think for us that that model of medication
37:58
Speaker 5: reconciliation hungrycun is one of the pillars in our pushing
38:07
Speaker 5: forward on this.
38:08
Speaker 6: I really do.
38:08
Speaker 5: I think it's as I love to call the army
38:10
Speaker 5: talk about the long pool in the tent. I think
38:13
Speaker 5: that's what that is. That's the long pole in the tent.
38:15
Speaker 5: Because with medication reconciliation, if a organization, whether it be
38:21
Speaker 5: a retail pharmacy or a big pharma or whoever, even
38:27
Speaker 5: you know, even an HMO, if they truly are there
38:31
Speaker 5: for the care of the patient and making sure that
38:35
Speaker 5: the patient is living the best lifestyle they can with
38:38
Speaker 5: the medications they're having to take for whatever their medical
38:41
Speaker 5: condition is. The medication reconciliation is that area you have
38:46
Speaker 5: to focus on. And as you well know as a
38:49
Speaker 5: whole pharmacist, if we can reduce the amount of medications
38:53
Speaker 5: they have to take one, the patient's going to be
38:56
Speaker 5: much happier because they don't have to take as much.
38:59
Speaker 5: And we know that's part of where medicon recon comes in,
39:02
Speaker 5: because let's just take high pretension. You're taking more medication
39:05
Speaker 5: for high pertension, but it has a side effect, so
39:07
Speaker 5: you take another. You add another medication to take care
39:10
Speaker 5: of the side of that well, but that one has
39:12
Speaker 5: a side effect too, so you add another one and
39:14
Speaker 5: it just goes on and on on. It's a downward spiral. Whereas,
39:17
Speaker 5: as a medicine recon specialist, if we can look at
39:21
Speaker 5: that and say, hey, wait a minute, you really let's
39:24
Speaker 5: let's look at this again. In fact, let's just do
39:26
Speaker 5: a drug holiday for a week and come back and
39:30
Speaker 5: reevaluate what we really need you to try to do
39:33
Speaker 5: to get you on the right the right regim regimen
39:37
Speaker 5: of medications I'll give you an example. When I was
39:40
Speaker 5: the chief of pharmacy at Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma,
39:44
Speaker 5: Oklahoma City, and I had a young pharmacist who he
39:48
Speaker 5: and this was just when medication recconcoliation was really starting
39:51
Speaker 5: to ramp up.
39:53
Speaker 6: And I tell you what, this kid was awesome.
39:55
Speaker 5: We had a husband and wife retirees that the husband
39:59
Speaker 5: was cake and fifty five different medications.
40:03
Speaker 6: The wife was taking sixty. Yeah, he got them down
40:08
Speaker 6: to twenty each.
40:11
Speaker 5: Now turning still a lot, but still to go from
40:14
Speaker 5: fifty and sixty, fifty five and sixty down to twenty.
40:18
Speaker 5: And they came in after and it took him about
40:21
Speaker 5: three months to finally wean him down to just those
40:24
Speaker 5: fourty and they both Now what's interesting is, you know,
40:27
Speaker 5: they say, I don't know if you have pets or not, Marina,
40:28
Speaker 5: but they say, we start to look like our pets,
40:30
Speaker 5: or our pets start to look like us. Well, I
40:32
Speaker 5: think it's kind of true with husbands and wife, you know,
40:34
Speaker 5: you start to resemble each other. And it was fascinating
40:37
Speaker 5: because he had fifty five medications, she had sixty. She
40:41
Speaker 5: had the same fifty five he had with five additional
40:46
Speaker 5: and I don't know, and again I can't remember the specific. Yeah,
40:49
Speaker 5: it's crazy, but after three months and he got them
40:54
Speaker 5: down to those twenty each, it was it was fascinating
40:57
Speaker 5: and see how they changed because they went from being
41:01
Speaker 5: you know, slugish and just it was. It was crazy, but.
41:05
Speaker 6: It got down to the point where you could tell
41:07
Speaker 6: they had changed.
41:07
Speaker 5: They felt better, they looked better, and they weren't taking
41:11
Speaker 5: as much medication. So medication reconciliation, I think has a
41:15
Speaker 5: huge impact. And I think that's that's where we have
41:18
Speaker 5: to continue to push that concept because that where that's
41:22
Speaker 5: that's the big dog in the fight for us, because
41:25
Speaker 5: that's what we do. We do medicanturation, and the advantage
41:29
Speaker 5: of a vertible pharmacist doing it is the fact that
41:32
Speaker 5: we may see things that we can use from a
41:35
Speaker 5: traditional aspect to replace some of those other medications.
41:40
Speaker 6: Does that make sense?
41:41
Speaker 3: And I think that's yeah, yeah, And that's exactly why
41:46
Speaker 3: I asked you that question because I wanted to segue
41:49
Speaker 3: about the potential for herbal medicine and nutraceuticals to fill
41:54
Speaker 3: in some of these gaps in a very cost effective
41:57
Speaker 3: and interesting, inable way and also very accessible.
42:01
Speaker 4: Right, Like you mentioned the supply chain.
42:03
Speaker 3: Issues, and just hearing you share that story about the
42:07
Speaker 3: fifty five plus meds, I think it just goes to
42:11
Speaker 3: show that we should probably be a little bit more
42:15
Speaker 3: conservative with our prescriptive authorities.
42:18
Speaker 4: Whoever is you know, putting that many medications on board?
42:21
Speaker 3: And there could be multiple providers that could contribute to
42:25
Speaker 3: this polypharmacy too, and we have this central filling place,
42:28
Speaker 3: dispensing place have privy to that information that the providers
42:33
Speaker 3: may not even know right And then the second thing
42:37
Speaker 3: is I think it's unethical right to practice medicine in
42:42
Speaker 3: this way and not to get to the root causes
42:44
Speaker 3: and not to see right away.
42:47
Speaker 4: How do we minifamize the treatment plan at every single
42:50
Speaker 4: step of the way.
42:51
Speaker 3: Why make wait till medrec when it should be at
42:55
Speaker 3: every visit?
42:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have to tell you there was
42:59
Speaker 5: There was a armacist. He was the last session I
43:01
Speaker 5: went to at APHA this year, and he's an herbal
43:04
Speaker 5: pharmacist out of California. I won't mention his name because
43:06
Speaker 5: that's inappropriate. I don't have the authority for the permission
43:10
Speaker 5: to do that. But he's been practicing, he's been practicing
43:14
Speaker 5: herbal so traditional conventional pharmacy now for over forty years,
43:19
Speaker 5: and I was just fascinating him. And the one one
43:22
Speaker 5: comedy made that really just slammed home with me was
43:26
Speaker 5: he said, do you guys, and we're all farms, well
43:28
Speaker 5: most of us, we're pharmacists sitting in the room arbas
43:30
Speaker 5: pharmacy texts. He says, do you guys, can you tell
43:33
Speaker 5: me what's the one medication we dispense that cures. It's
43:37
Speaker 5: the only one we dispense that cures. And of course
43:40
Speaker 5: everybody said it he finally, and so finally, finally someone
43:43
Speaker 5: said antibiotics. He goes, exactly, that is the only medication
43:47
Speaker 5: we dispense that's a curative. All the rest of them
43:51
Speaker 5: are still demanding. And that's true. I mean, we may
43:54
Speaker 5: want to think it's different, but it isn't. So it's
43:58
Speaker 5: it's the same kind of with with our traditional met
44:02
Speaker 5: with herbals and nutracitycals. There's none of them that necessarily cure,
44:07
Speaker 5: but they are preventative.
44:09
Speaker 6: They are very very preventative.
44:10
Speaker 5: And we know we can start the laundry list of
44:13
Speaker 5: things that are quere seaton, which is one of the
44:15
Speaker 5: things I discovered back in twenty eighteen quere Seaton is
44:20
Speaker 5: very very preventive, and it's fascinating to see how it works.
44:24
Speaker 5: And of course one of the things, and I don't
44:25
Speaker 5: want to go down a rabbit hole, but we but
44:28
Speaker 5: I'm going to. We sit there and we get well,
44:31
Speaker 5: you don't have enough research. You don't have enough research
44:34
Speaker 5: on the nutricidals and herbals. Well that's not necessarily true.
44:38
Speaker 5: Now they may not be as broad and stope as
44:41
Speaker 5: what some of the conventional research projects have done, but
44:45
Speaker 5: that's when you start doing meta analysis to try to
44:48
Speaker 5: compare them so that you can make them such that
44:51
Speaker 5: it's not that you're trying to mold the data. You
44:54
Speaker 5: are looking at them from a very scientific procedure process.
44:59
Speaker 5: But been plenty of research so anyway, But yeah, I
45:03
Speaker 5: think that's one of the things that we can really
45:04
Speaker 5: do and be very helpful for our patients and for
45:08
Speaker 5: our fellow providers. Of Look, we're not just blowing smoke,
45:12
Speaker 5: as we know that there's only one thing we give
45:16
Speaker 5: the cures, and that's habotic.
45:17
Speaker 6: The rest of them are adjuncts.
45:18
Speaker 5: However, within the nutraceutical and herbal realm, there are some
45:23
Speaker 5: that are even better adjuncts.
45:24
Speaker 6: Than the other ones.
45:27
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I will add on to that as well.
45:30
Speaker 3: When I was thinking about doing a residency, I think
45:35
Speaker 3: one of the things that attracted me to infectious diseases
45:38
Speaker 3: was the same concept that, yes, you have to just
45:41
Speaker 3: do the work up, identify the organism, and then you
45:44
Speaker 3: have a solution and it's short term and you fix
45:47
Speaker 3: the acute issue and you're done. However, I think that's
45:51
Speaker 3: simplistic and wishful thinking. And now that we are seeing
45:57
Speaker 3: the effects of pretty much centuries worth of antibiotics, we're
46:03
Speaker 3: seeing that there's resistance, there's MDR multiple drug resistance. We're
46:07
Speaker 3: seeing that the bacteria are fighting back and mutating at
46:11
Speaker 3: a much faster rate than our scientific tools can come
46:14
Speaker 3: up with ways to combat them and create new drugs
46:18
Speaker 3: that would have broader scopes. Right, And we're also harming
46:22
Speaker 3: the microbiome. We were talking about the importance of that earlier,
46:25
Speaker 3: So we're not just you know, specific. Sometimes we can
46:30
Speaker 3: be a little bit specific and sensitive to the bacteria
46:33
Speaker 3: that we're targeting or the organism. However, we have a
46:37
Speaker 3: long way to go, is just say that, And we're
46:40
Speaker 3: running out of time because the infections are becoming greater
46:43
Speaker 3: and greater, and.
46:44
Speaker 4: Our tools are just not measuring up.
46:46
Speaker 3: And so this is where I think the herbals and
46:49
Speaker 3: other natural remedies can actually come in and like you said,
46:54
Speaker 3: eat better adjuncts that rather than piling more and more
46:57
Speaker 3: antibiotic or other kinds of therapy, because number one, they're failing,
47:02
Speaker 3: and number two, these things, the whole plant, foods and
47:06
Speaker 3: herbs are they have different mechanisms that are synergistics and
47:13
Speaker 3: they can evade those drug resistance pathways because they're attacking
47:19
Speaker 3: from different angles and they're also usually not harming the
47:23
Speaker 3: body at the same time. So we need to build
47:26
Speaker 3: up and support the body as well as target the
47:29
Speaker 3: organisms which conventional medicine misses. Yes, and.
47:35
Speaker 5: I mentioned it to you in our pre talk. I'm
47:37
Speaker 5: just going to show the book so people can see it.
47:40
Speaker 5: Doctor Emern Mayer. He's from southern.
47:43
Speaker 6: California and I got to hear him do a presentation
47:47
Speaker 6: at APHA.
47:48
Speaker 5: He was a product theater and it was just fascinating
47:51
Speaker 5: and his whole point and if you get a chance
47:55
Speaker 5: to read this book, it's called the Mindset Immune Connection.
47:58
Speaker 6: He really has focused.
47:59
Speaker 5: On the microbiome of the gut and how it has
48:04
Speaker 5: such an amazing impact on our system, not just the
48:09
Speaker 5: positive but also could have on the disease sides, because
48:13
Speaker 5: as you were just saying, when, for example, with overprescribing
48:17
Speaker 5: the antibotics, we've really screwed up the microbiome in the gut.
48:21
Speaker 5: And that's why it becomes so essential or and I'm
48:23
Speaker 5: going to I'm going to focus on he focuses on
48:26
Speaker 5: three kind of probiotics. There's prebiotics, probiotics in one other
48:30
Speaker 5: one I can't think of, but he really yeah, thank you,
48:34
Speaker 5: He really he really focuses on the probiotic idea and
48:38
Speaker 5: then how the strain is so important to one of
48:40
Speaker 5: the things that he talks about. And I had never
48:41
Speaker 5: thought about this where because you know, we've talked about
48:44
Speaker 5: it for years, when you take an antibiotic, you should
48:47
Speaker 5: you kill off the good flora and you need to
48:50
Speaker 5: work on bring in the better the good flora back.
48:53
Speaker 5: And so that's why like yogurt or acidophilis or whatever
48:57
Speaker 5: you want to use that helps that probiotic helps bring
49:00
Speaker 5: that back.
49:01
Speaker 6: And he really.
49:02
Speaker 5: Really talks about a lot about that, and I think
49:04
Speaker 5: that's where.
49:05
Speaker 6: It's very for us as furnaces.
49:07
Speaker 5: That becomes another ability for us to say, because of
49:11
Speaker 5: the over prescribing, we really have damage to microbiome. So
49:16
Speaker 5: if we can look at ways through the traditional nutraceuticals
49:20
Speaker 5: and herbals to help to help support that microbiome, that's
49:26
Speaker 5: just critical. And that's what And I know that's kind
49:28
Speaker 5: of how we got our start because the young lady
49:31
Speaker 5: you had on was talking a lot about the microbiome,
49:33
Speaker 5: and I have to be honest, I just didn't understand
49:36
Speaker 5: it at the point. But after hearing doctor Mayer talk
49:39
Speaker 5: and reading his book, I mean, it really did open.
49:42
Speaker 6: My eyes a lot about Oh my gosh.
49:45
Speaker 5: Now it makes sense to me why a probiotic not
49:48
Speaker 5: just for after And it's not blieveing it's not a
49:51
Speaker 5: cure all, but it really does help because in a sense,
49:55
Speaker 5: and again it's like it's kind of like in the military,
49:59
Speaker 5: we do a lot, we do a lot of what
50:01
Speaker 5: we call PT, which is physical training. Well, for me,
50:05
Speaker 5: the probiotic is kind of physical training for my microbiomes
50:08
Speaker 5: because I'm feeding them something that's positive and it's going
50:13
Speaker 5: to help them understand and Okay, I'm feeling better, so.
50:16
Speaker 6: Now I can help you feel better.
50:18
Speaker 5: And that's really kind of exciting stuff because I think
50:20
Speaker 5: that's whereas farms is, we have a little bit more
50:24
Speaker 5: of an opportunity to share with our patients. And you
50:26
Speaker 5: mentioned this earlier and I'm going to I'm going to
50:28
Speaker 5: go back on it, so that what's the number one
50:30
Speaker 5: and two things of every disease state. The number one
50:33
Speaker 5: and two things for therapy every disease state diet and
50:37
Speaker 5: PT diet and physical fitness. It just did because we know, like,
50:43
Speaker 5: for example, unfortunately I'm I'm at seventy one years old,
50:48
Speaker 5: and I've got bad knees and bad bats from being
50:51
Speaker 5: a stupid kid. And so the best thing for me
50:54
Speaker 5: to do though is physical therapy, is to do some
50:57
Speaker 5: form of physical therapy.
50:58
Speaker 6: And I do that.
50:58
Speaker 5: My wife and I both do are very very active,
51:01
Speaker 5: and we know that not only benefits our body, but
51:04
Speaker 5: it benefits are mine because we know as we see
51:07
Speaker 5: as we get older, especially with unfortunately with patients that
51:11
Speaker 5: have either dementia or Alzheimer's having that mental acuity, we
51:16
Speaker 5: have to challenge that as much as we can. But
51:18
Speaker 5: it's still diet and exercise. Diet and exercise that's the
51:21
Speaker 5: number one two. And you said that earlier, and I
51:24
Speaker 5: started to jump on a damn bell jumper because it's
51:27
Speaker 5: so important. It's so important, and those are things that
51:30
Speaker 5: we can recommend as as farmsists. Is that that are
51:33
Speaker 5: very easy, we can make those recommendations. Doctor Mayer. One
51:37
Speaker 5: of the things he talks a lot about, and I
51:38
Speaker 5: hadn't thought about this, but he really talks a lot
51:41
Speaker 5: about how if you look at the Mediterranean diet, which
51:46
Speaker 5: was primarily fruits and vegetables, very lean meat, which is
51:49
Speaker 5: primarily either chicken or fish, fowl fish, and avoiding as
51:55
Speaker 5: much as possible avoiding red meat. Well, we know that's true.
51:58
Speaker 5: We know that in the American diet, unfortun in the
52:00
Speaker 5: American diver what he calls the Western diet, it's really
52:03
Speaker 5: focused so much on process, on fast convenience. How we
52:08
Speaker 5: know those are full of empty caunties and they don't
52:11
Speaker 5: nourish our Michael Bio, so.
52:16
Speaker 6: Exciting stuff. Exciting.
52:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love the points that you've been making about
52:23
Speaker 3: how fast and convenient doesn't mean optimal, right, It's very
52:29
Speaker 3: different concepts and often are opposites. And also how you
52:33
Speaker 3: said about the mind body connection, that's something we didn't
52:36
Speaker 3: really touch on, but it really is a spectrum as well. Yes,
52:39
Speaker 3: how one of them supports the other end feeds into
52:42
Speaker 3: the other. And so doctor Johnson, I want to thank
52:47
Speaker 3: you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom
52:50
Speaker 3: and your experience with us. And if you have just
52:52
Speaker 3: one more minute, I'd love to do a rapid fire
52:54
Speaker 3: around with you.
52:55
Speaker 6: Yes, I do fire away.
52:58
Speaker 4: Question number one.
52:59
Speaker 3: What's the number are one thing people should do to
53:01
Speaker 3: improve their quality of life right now?
53:04
Speaker 5: The number one thing people can do right now diet
53:08
Speaker 5: exercise one. Your diet, you know, try to focus on
53:12
Speaker 5: if you don't have a good plan. The Mediterranean diet
53:14
Speaker 5: plan is a good one. Weight Watchers has has a
53:18
Speaker 5: beautiful eating program that you can get into. There's several
53:21
Speaker 5: solid ones. The basic thing to stay away from if
53:25
Speaker 5: you can, definitely stay away from red meat as much
53:28
Speaker 5: as you can. Try to focus on fish and foul
53:31
Speaker 5: Try to stay away from process foods, you know, deep
53:33
Speaker 5: fried foods, those kind of things. I mean, I will say,
53:36
Speaker 5: my wife and I go out for date night once
53:37
Speaker 5: a week, and we probably don't eat very healthy on
53:39
Speaker 5: that night. We eat healthy the rest of the week.
53:42
Speaker 5: You know, you just do that. So though, I think
53:45
Speaker 5: that's the number one thing you can do. It's diet
53:47
Speaker 5: and exercise, and as far as exercise goes, it's cumulative.
53:51
Speaker 5: So one of the things that I do, I call
53:52
Speaker 5: it that I Fool five to five program, And what
53:55
Speaker 5: that is is that at least every forty five minutes,
53:58
Speaker 5: I get up for at least a minimum of five
54:00
Speaker 5: to ten minutes and exercise right here at my desk.
54:03
Speaker 5: I do. And if you want more on that, Marina
54:06
Speaker 5: can give you my contact information. I'm more than happy
54:09
Speaker 5: to talk to you about. And that's free. That's not
54:11
Speaker 5: I'm not going to charge. If you're a console, that's free.
54:15
Speaker 4: Beautiful.
54:16
Speaker 3: What do you wish more people or even pharmacists and
54:20
Speaker 3: healthcare professionals knew about nutraceuticals and herbals?
54:25
Speaker 5: I guess I wish if if I had had my
54:29
Speaker 5: one wish I was and the Good Lord wel gentitely
54:32
Speaker 5: have that wish would be that they trust us, that
54:36
Speaker 5: they that they trust the new suitors, and they trust
54:39
Speaker 5: the healthcare professionals that have gotten involved in those like
54:41
Speaker 5: yourself and myself to tell them.
54:45
Speaker 6: And I know you know, I try to be as
54:47
Speaker 6: discerning as possible.
54:49
Speaker 5: I'm very very cautious when I'm looking into someone asking
54:52
Speaker 5: me about a nutraceutical or a herbal I'm very cautious
54:55
Speaker 5: about if I find one that's selling it that for me,
54:57
Speaker 5: is proprietary, that means they're trying to make them bok
55:00
Speaker 5: off of it. I try to look for solid research
55:03
Speaker 5: articles that show that this has been tested to do
55:06
Speaker 5: this that yet. But I really wish that that would
55:09
Speaker 5: be where the communication of that there are nutraceuticals and
55:13
Speaker 5: traditional medications that we can trust and that they would
55:16
Speaker 5: trust us to do that. I would say that would
55:19
Speaker 5: be my number one.
55:21
Speaker 4: I love that.
55:22
Speaker 3: And then finally a fun question, what's a hobby or
55:26
Speaker 3: some fun fact you can share with us about yourself?
55:30
Speaker 6: Oh my goodness, Okay, I play paintball.
55:36
Speaker 5: I've been playing paintball since nineteen eighty seven, and it
55:41
Speaker 5: cracks me up because one people say, well, you're playing
55:44
Speaker 5: war now, It's really it's like tag. You're just using
55:47
Speaker 5: a paintball to tag the other player, and I just
55:50
Speaker 5: find that fascinating. So I'll tell you a really quick
55:53
Speaker 5: funny story on that. So I've been like saying, I've
55:55
Speaker 5: been playing since nineteen eighty four and so now gain
55:59
Speaker 5: seventy one. I'm probably usually one of the oldest players
56:02
Speaker 5: out of the field. And so one day we were
56:04
Speaker 5: having a we ever having a scenario game. I play
56:06
Speaker 5: scenario games, and so we're having a scenario game and
56:09
Speaker 5: the commander said, okay. He looks at my squad and says,
56:12
Speaker 5: you guys are going to run down here. You're going
56:13
Speaker 5: to get this field, set up your perimeter, and we'll
56:15
Speaker 5: be there and then and so I had this young
56:17
Speaker 5: kid and I said, okay, you take this ten guys
56:20
Speaker 5: and I'll be right behind you. And so the horn sounds,
56:23
Speaker 5: I mean, they take off like a bullet.
56:25
Speaker 6: I don't run anymore. I walk, so I'm I'm walking.
56:29
Speaker 5: So I finally get up there and the kid I
56:30
Speaker 5: told to take the crew down there. He goes, where
56:32
Speaker 5: you been? I said, I'm here. It's why didn't you run?
56:36
Speaker 5: I said, this is running. Walking is running for me.
56:39
Speaker 5: And he goes, well, what were you doing? I said,
56:41
Speaker 5: I was protecting. I was your rear guard.
56:43
Speaker 6: I made sure no one came up behind you. So
56:45
Speaker 6: did anyone come up behind you?
56:47
Speaker 5: No? I said that I did my mission.
56:51
Speaker 6: But that's probably you think. But I love it. I
56:52
Speaker 6: love it.
56:53
Speaker 4: That's an excellent strategy. So I think, now you're in
56:56
Speaker 4: the military.
56:58
Speaker 3: All right, So finally, can you please tell people how
57:00
Speaker 3: to reach out to you and learn more about your work.
57:03
Speaker 5: Yes, So to reach out to me, one, you can
57:06
Speaker 5: contact Marina because she has my email. But my email,
57:09
Speaker 5: the easiest email to get me on is is all
57:13
Speaker 5: probably what you know, there's two of them. There's Operation
57:16
Speaker 5: Pathfinders seven seven seven at gmail dot com and that's
57:20
Speaker 5: all one word, Operation Pathfinders seven seven seven at gmail
57:23
Speaker 5: dot com. And then I guess my consultant email is
57:29
Speaker 5: it's n t r X half consultants at outlook dot com.
57:36
Speaker 6: So either one of those will get to me.
57:37
Speaker 5: And I'm more than happy to talk with anybody pretty
57:41
Speaker 5: much about anything, but if it's about nutraceuticles or whatever,
57:45
Speaker 5: I'll do my best.
57:46
Speaker 4: For sounds good.
57:47
Speaker 3: All right, I'll have all that information in the show
57:50
Speaker 3: notes and I look forward to see you again soon,
57:53
Speaker 3: doctor Jeff.
57:53
Speaker 6: All right, Marina, thank you so much thanke care.
57:56
Speaker 2: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the
57:59
Speaker 2: Holistic Farm podcast, and I truly hope you enjoyed the show.
58:03
Speaker 2: If you learn something useful in this episode, please consider
58:07
Speaker 2: giving the show a five star rating and a sincere
58:10
Speaker 2: review so that more people can find it or share
58:13
Speaker 2: it with a friend directly. To get in touch with me,
58:16
Speaker 2: you can find me on social media by looking up
58:18
Speaker 2: my name Marina books Of, or email me at Marina
58:23
Speaker 2: at rawfork dot com. Take good care and see you soon.