Latest / The Advancing Healthcare Innovation Show / E197 | AI Won’t Replace Your Doctor’s Front Desk — It’ll Save It | Oakkar Oakkar, Keona Health

Transcript

E197 | AI Won’t Replace Your Doctor’s Front Desk — It’ll Save It | Oakkar Oakkar, Keona Health · The Advancing Healthcare Innovation Show

• 0:10
  Hello and welcome back to the Advancing
• 0:12
  Healthcare Innovation Show. I'm your
• 0:15
  host, Michael Stamatinos, and if you're
• 0:16
  new to us, welcome. We are super excited
• 0:20
  to have you here because we're having
• 0:21
  some just tremendous conversations with
• 0:23
  real leaders that are painstakingly
• 0:25
  reshaping the future of healthcare. We
• 0:29
  are pretty passionate about a few
• 0:30
  different areas. We're very passionate
• 0:31
  about access, about innovation and
• 0:33
  transformation and leadership and the
• 0:35
  adoption of these innovations. And if
• 0:37
  it's your first time tuning in, let me
• 0:39
  just take a quick step back and tell you
• 0:41
  a little bit more about what we're
• 0:43
  trying to get done here. So the ethos of
• 0:45
  the show is focusing in on real leaders,
• 0:48
  real people that are truly innovating
• 0:50
  within our space and leading and guiding
• 0:53
  differently and giving them the
• 0:54
  opportunity to share their stories,
• 0:57
  share their learnings, share their
• 1:00
  little wins with our community and
• 1:02
  ultimately with the world. If you
• 1:05
  wherever you are, if you have been
• 1:07
  watching this show, however you're
• 1:08
  consuming this show, if you're watching
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  it, if you're listening to it, please
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  hit the subscribe button now. so that
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  any of the new interviews come directly
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  to you.
• 1:19
  Very excited about this episode today.
• 1:21
  Very very excited uh for a few different
• 1:24
  reasons, but let me just sort of take a
• 1:26
  step back here. So, everybody talks
• 1:28
  about access.
• 1:31
  What does that mean? You know, more
• 1:32
  appointments, better experiences,
• 1:35
  meeting patients where they are. But I
• 1:37
  think the reality is for most people is
• 1:40
  that the health care journey, it doesn't
• 1:42
  it doesn't start with a physician,
• 1:44
  doesn't start with a doctor or nurse. It
• 1:45
  starts with a phone call. It starts with
• 1:47
  a question. Um the moment where someone
• 1:50
  needs help, they got to navigate through
• 1:52
  the system that can obviously feel very
• 1:54
  very complex. Even for someone like me
• 1:56
  who's been in the system for a while,
• 1:58
  it's tough. And I think that first
• 2:00
  interaction can shape everything that
• 2:03
  happens next. So my next guest is
• 2:08
  someone who I think is absolutely
• 2:10
  brilliant. His name is Okar
• 2:14
  and he's the CEO of Kona Health. Yes,
• 2:16
  someone with two first names. Okar, I
• 2:20
  think, is one of the most intriguing and
• 2:21
  interesting founders I've gotten to know
• 2:23
  over the last couple of years. He's an
• 2:25
  AI engineer by background. He's a
• 2:27
  builder by nature and a surfer who found
• 2:32
  inspiration in the waves of light. U
• 2:36
  which actually makes a lot of sense
• 2:37
  because I think surfing teaches you
• 2:40
  something important. It you don't
• 2:42
  control the ocean. You learn to
• 2:45
  understand it. You you read the patterns
• 2:48
  and you anticipate what's coming. And
• 2:50
  for those that are listening, if you're
• 2:52
  a surfer, you understand you you
• 2:54
  position yourself to respond accordingly
• 2:57
  and to to catch the wave. And in my
• 3:00
  opinion, healthcare works the same exact
• 3:03
  way. And millions of patients are trying
• 3:06
  to find the right care at the right time
• 3:10
  while healthcare teams are navigating
• 3:12
  this constant, you know, complexity
• 3:16
  that's happening behind the scenes. And
• 3:18
  in this, OKAR saw an opportunity. You
• 3:22
  know, what if what if technology could
• 3:24
  help, you know, organizations to kind of
• 3:26
  better understand those signals, you
• 3:28
  know, what if AI could remove some of
• 3:30
  those some of those friction points so
• 3:33
  that you can focus more on the things
• 3:35
  that matter on the on the human
• 3:37
  interaction. And that idea is what
• 3:40
  started Kiona Health. and it's a company
• 3:43
  that's helping healthcare organizations
• 3:45
  transform the way patients access and
• 3:49
  navigate care. So in this conversation,
• 3:52
  my hope is that yes, we'll talk about AI
• 3:55
  uh healthc care's front door. We'll talk
• 3:57
  about entrepreneurship, we'll talk about
• 4:00
  what surfing can teach us about building
• 4:03
  technology, about building companies
• 4:06
  um for one of the most complex
• 4:08
  industries in the world. So, Okar, great
• 4:11
  to see you. Welcome to the show.
• 4:14
  >> Thank you, Mike. Outstanding
• 4:16
  introduction. I love it. So happy to be
• 4:18
  here.
• 4:19
  >> All right. So before we dig into AI um
• 4:22
  healthcare or KA I I actually want to
• 4:25
  start in the ocean because you've got
• 4:27
  that
• 4:28
  if if you're if you're watching this
• 4:30
  you're seeing this magnificent board in
• 4:32
  the background that you just I just
• 4:33
  can't
• 4:35
  I'm curious what what did surfing teach
• 4:38
  you about life that you don't think you
• 4:41
  could have learned anywhere else?
• 4:44
  >> Yeah, thank you for starting with the
• 4:47
  ocean which is my happy place. Right.
• 4:49
  It's always good to start with the happy
• 4:51
  place. Uh no, you nailed it uh with the
• 4:54
  analogy on surfing, right? You know, the
• 4:57
  the ocean teaches you timing and teaches
• 5:01
  you patience and teaches you sometime
• 5:04
  things going to be out of control. It
• 5:06
  teaches you about chaos, right? And
• 5:09
  there's the absolutely nothing that you
• 5:12
  have control over once you are in the
• 5:13
  mother of nature, right? You have to
• 5:15
  respect it. You have to be patient and
• 5:18
  uh you got to wait for the right timing
• 5:20
  and uh you know it just it's like so
• 5:22
  many things we could learn uh not just
• 5:24
  for u you know business or healthcare
• 5:27
  per se right or with life too being
• 5:30
  mother nature.
• 5:31
  >> I think the ocean is probably you know
• 5:34
  one of the the most mysterious
• 5:36
  you know factor uh for mother nature.
• 5:40
  >> Yeah. Do do you do you remember the
• 5:42
  first time you kind of caught a wave and
• 5:44
  thought I I understand why people do
• 5:46
  this forever?
• 5:48
  >> Oh, that you just hooked. You are just
• 5:51
  hooked, right? You It's, you know, you
• 5:53
  wait for the right timing and you pop
• 5:55
  right up and then the ocean pushes you
• 5:58
  and the next thing you know, you're
• 6:00
  riding and just like one of the most
• 6:02
  amazing feelings you can have.
• 6:05
  >> It's very addicting, you know, very
• 6:07
  addicting. Was there ever an instance
• 6:10
  where a moment where the ocean like
• 6:11
  really humbled you?
• 6:13
  >> Oh yeah. So, you know, I broke my nose
• 6:16
  in the ocean uh sort of thing and I fell
• 6:20
  off and uh hit the rock and scraped my
• 6:23
  body into pieces, right? And step on sea
• 6:27
  urchins. I couldn't walk. I had to
• 6:28
  crawl. Right? So, so many things. If
• 6:31
  you're reckless, if you weren't paying
• 6:33
  attention, if you are greedy, if you are
• 6:36
  not considerate, oh,
• 6:40
  it'll teach you so many tough lessons
• 6:42
  that you know makes you it's very
• 6:44
  humbling.
• 6:45
  >> Yeah, you think surfing changed the way
• 6:47
  you build companies.
• 6:50
  >> Um, for sure like you know the the whole
• 6:53
  genesis and the inspiration around Kona
• 6:56
  Health came from surfing, right? So uh
• 6:59
  yeah it it really shaped uh the way I
• 7:03
  think and uh believe it or not I met my
• 7:07
  uh wife in the water surfing. So surfing
• 7:10
  is a huge part of me. So you know I saw
• 7:13
  in the water I started talking to her
• 7:16
  and you know fast forward here with you
• 7:19
  know two beautiful babies. Oh they're
• 7:22
  not babies anymore. They're like nine
• 7:23
  and 11. So
• 7:26
  that's my babies.
• 7:28
  >> Yeah. Well, tell tell me about sort of
• 7:30
  uh
• 7:33
  this the genesis of Ka I think because
• 7:35
  here here's here's I want to frame this
• 7:37
  with is the more I've gotten to know you
• 7:40
  um I've just sort of realized that
• 7:42
  there's this calmness around how you
• 7:47
  sort of approach complex problems.
• 7:51
  Like where does that come from?
• 7:54
  Were you always wired that way?
• 7:56
  >> Yeah. So, um, you know, I used to suffer
• 8:00
  a friend. Um, you know, that was back in
• 8:02
  Hawaii, right? You know, uh, 15 15 years
• 8:05
  ago. I used to serve with the friend
• 8:08
  and, uh, at the time he was implementing
• 8:10
  u electronic health records, you know,
• 8:12
  in the health systems in the Bay Area.
• 8:16
  Um, but he would come home every
• 8:17
  Thursday to surf.
• 8:20
  And uh again back to being in the ocean
• 8:23
  uh sometimes you have to wait you have
• 8:24
  to be patient but it allows you to
• 8:28
  interact with other human beings you
• 8:29
  know your friends that you surfing with
• 8:32
  other surfers you talk uh it's you know
• 8:35
  one of the the coolest experiences you
• 8:37
  can have right so I was talking to my
• 8:40
  friend um there and asking him about
• 8:43
  what he does and uh got so fascinated by
• 8:47
  the whole medical informatics right how
• 8:50
  the patient's data is being used and how
• 8:53
  you could uh really enhance uh you know
• 8:56
  humans lives and since then I had a
• 8:59
  calling a huge passion you know what I
• 9:02
  really want to build a product that
• 9:05
  really helps u millions of people in
• 9:08
  healthcare right so that calling was
• 9:12
  clearly there um and um the more you
• 9:15
  talk about it the more I get fascinated
• 9:16
  you know again right you just asked so
• 9:19
  many questions. Um and uh but Hawaii is
• 9:23
  a a pretty
• 9:25
  uh amazing place. Do you have
• 9:27
  inspirations? Um but it's a you know a
• 9:30
  lot of waves
• 9:33
  probably throughout the year. So it was
• 9:36
  really hard to execute. Um and uh so my
• 9:39
  girlfriend at the time, my wife um she
• 9:41
  got into UNCC for grad school and she's
• 9:45
  like, "You know what? you've been
• 9:46
  talking about this company for a long
• 9:49
  time and it's time for you to execute.
• 9:50
  So, I'm moving to North Carolina and
• 9:53
  you're coming with me. I said, "Wait,
• 9:55
  wait, wait, wait. Where are we? We're
• 9:56
  going to North Carol where?"
• 10:01
  Uh, she backed me to North Carolina and
• 10:05
  uh I couldn't serve. Uh, I was really
• 10:08
  bored. I was miserable. and next thing
• 10:11
  you know founded a company met my
• 10:14
  co-founders and you know the rest was
• 10:16
  the history right
• 10:19
  >> so um that's how it all started so back
• 10:21
  to your question on you know staying
• 10:24
  calm and uh you know I realized that um
• 10:29
  you know I didn't have any healthcare
• 10:30
  experience right before I started Kiona
• 10:33
  >> and once you get into healthcare things
• 10:37
  were a lot more complicated Right. And
• 10:40
  we want to bring
• 10:41
  >> Do you feel like that was a blessing
• 10:42
  though that you didn't have that
• 10:44
  exposure to healthcare that you kind of
• 10:46
  went into it sort of like I'm thinking
• 10:47
  like a bumblebee. A bumblebee doesn't
• 10:49
  know that it can't fly but it does it
• 10:51
  still flies. Do you feel like you kind
• 10:52
  of had some of that going into it or
• 10:54
  were you just immediately humbled?
• 10:57
  >> Oh, most definitely. Right. So, had I
• 10:59
  known all the complexities and rules and
• 11:02
  regulations around healthcare, I would
• 11:04
  have stayed away. Right. Not knowing
• 11:07
  that uh was a you know a bit of a
• 11:10
  blessing right not knowing that just
• 11:12
  jumped right in and especially you know
• 11:16
  we were we wanted to bring in the
• 11:18
  personalization consumerization that we
• 11:21
  were doing in other verticals and you
• 11:23
  know and the retail real estate IT uh
• 11:28
  you know travel industry is huge in
• 11:29
  Hawaii right so bringing these amazing
• 11:33
  uh personalization and consumerization
• 11:35
  into healthcare
• 11:36
  But boom, right, just got smack in the
• 11:38
  face uh from all these different
• 11:41
  complexities and regulations and we
• 11:44
  quickly realized that uh if we if we
• 11:47
  really want to improve healthcare, we
• 11:49
  have to start with access, right?
• 11:51
  Patient access, right?
• 11:53
  >> That's the first place uh huge problem.
• 11:55
  I had my own personal experience. Um and
• 11:59
  uh that was that was it. Um and the it's
• 12:02
  like onion, right? the more you start
• 12:03
  appealing uh the more humbling you get
• 12:07
  and uh makes you realize that you have
• 12:09
  to solve a lot of difficult problems one
• 12:13
  after another and of course you know
• 12:16
  it's also just like surfing this is very
• 12:18
  addicting right it's
• 12:21
  >> opening one door after another but you
• 12:23
  know we love solving difficult problems
• 12:26
  and we're like you know kids in the in
• 12:28
  the candy store but right um
• 12:32
  >> well when solving problems. Is it
• 12:33
  because you just you love to build
• 12:36
  because you like you love technology or
• 12:38
  is it because you just you see problems
• 12:40
  differently?
• 12:42
  Yeah, I love uh I love technologies, but
• 12:45
  uh first and foremost, we love to solve
• 12:48
  difficult problems, right? We're just
• 12:50
  like all the three of us, all the
• 12:51
  co-founders, uh Jimmy, Stephen, and
• 12:53
  myself, we're just wired that way. And
• 12:57
  uh uh the more you look into healthcare
• 13:01
  access problems, the more you realize
• 13:03
  that a lot of people are trying to solve
• 13:06
  superficial problems and they're
• 13:08
  claiming that they are, you know, rein
• 13:11
  reimagining or they're transforming
• 13:12
  healthcare, right? Which is far from uh
• 13:15
  truth. Um and uh healthcare access is a
• 13:19
  very very difficult problem.
• 13:22
  And if you really want to solve it very
• 13:25
  meaningfully, right, you can't just have
• 13:27
  it, okay, I'm just going to solve a
• 13:28
  little quick uh you know scheduling for
• 13:31
  a new patient or existing patient,
• 13:33
  right?
• 13:34
  >> You have to solve as a whole holistic
• 13:37
  ecosystem from triaging, scheduling,
• 13:41
  prescription refills, right? Building
• 13:43
  questions and and pretty much all the
• 13:45
  calls that are coming in or all the
• 13:47
  inquiries that patients are currently
• 13:49
  do. Um and you have to really
• 13:52
  orchestrate the whole journey otherwise
• 13:55
  you know you're just having peace meal
• 13:57
  solutions here and here and there and
• 14:00
  it's not really solving or solving you
• 14:04
  know the uh healthcare access problems
• 14:06
  meaningfully right
• 14:08
  >> that's why um it took us a lot longer
• 14:10
  than than we anticipated uh to do what
• 14:14
  we wanted to do and
• 14:15
  >> what did you what did you originally
• 14:17
  anticipate like how long did you think
• 14:18
  it was going to take you and how long
• 14:20
  Did it actually take you?
• 14:21
  >> Yeah. So, we thought it's going to be
• 14:23
  like, you know, a few years, right? Uh
• 14:25
  is this going to be uh solved and we're
• 14:28
  going to transform healthcare? Oh, yeah.
• 14:30
  We were we was far.
• 14:34
  It was far off. And you know, it took
• 14:37
  you know, three four times longer than
• 14:38
  you anticipated. Uh but we believe in
• 14:42
  solving that. So, we are just so
• 14:44
  convicted and we won't stop till we get
• 14:46
  there and we are almost there.
• 14:49
  I think very few people are uh are crazy
• 14:52
  enough to spend years trying to fix
• 14:56
  something.
• 14:58
  >> We are.
• 14:59
  >> Yeah. I say the only way is like you get
• 15:01
  obsessed enough about an issue or you
• 15:05
  just can't unsee this problem. You're
• 15:06
  like I'm going to I'm going to see it
• 15:08
  through to the end. And so it's a bit of
• 15:10
  combination of
• 15:12
  >> stubbornness
• 15:14
  uh pride
• 15:16
  and a whole lot of grit. Yeah. And also
• 15:20
  like obsession, right? Um didn't know
• 15:24
  that. Um again for the three of us, for
• 15:27
  all the co-founders,
• 15:29
  uh this has become our reason for
• 15:33
  existence, right?
• 15:35
  >> This is our Yeah. This is our existence.
• 15:38
  We have to do it, right? It has our
• 15:40
  names on it and we got to just see
• 15:43
  through it. There's no no way around.
• 15:46
  >> Yeah. I I think every founder at some
• 15:49
  point, you know, has a moment where
• 15:52
  the problem that you're solving goes
• 15:54
  from interesting to to personal.
• 15:59
  >> Yeah.
• 16:00
  >> Was you had mentioned something before.
• 16:02
  I'm just wondering like what was what
• 16:04
  was that moment for you?
• 16:06
  >> Oh, yeah. So, um
• 16:10
  coming from Hawaii, right? North
• 16:11
  Carolina, it's a you know, it's a little
• 16:13
  bit drier. It's in the in the fall day,
• 16:17
  super dry fall day, and I was just
• 16:21
  walking away, you know, in my office,
• 16:23
  and all of a sudden,
• 16:25
  uh, my nose just started bleeding out of
• 16:27
  the blue,
• 16:29
  >> and it never happened to me before. So,
• 16:32
  I was like, "Wow." And, uh, I was
• 16:34
  wearing a a shirt. My whole shirt was
• 16:37
  soaked in blood, and I had no idea
• 16:39
  what's going on. So, of course, I
• 16:42
  panicly call, you know, the hospital's
• 16:45
  nearby, doctor's office is nearby while
• 16:48
  I was like, you know, trying to
• 16:50
  stop the, you know, the blood coming out
• 16:52
  of my nose and nobody picked up. No one
• 16:56
  picked up.
• 16:57
  >> I called like six people, like six
• 16:59
  practices nearby.
• 17:01
  >> So, I was like, "Wow." You know, and
• 17:04
  then um I ended up driving to uh to the
• 17:08
  ER, right? because again it's still like
• 17:11
  I'm thriving. It's still like so much
• 17:13
  blood coming out and then once I sat in
• 17:17
  the ER uh it stopped.
• 17:21
  Uh but you know I didn't leave because I
• 17:23
  I need to know what's going on. Right.
• 17:25
  >> So after waiting for four hours
• 17:30
  um I saw a nurse
• 17:33
  >> and you know the first thing she asked
• 17:35
  me was um were you picking your nose?
• 17:41
  Because if you think about it, right?
• 17:43
  Like for her, she is, you know, treating
• 17:46
  people with like serious injuries,
• 17:48
  right? Like fatal, life-threatening
• 17:51
  injuries.
• 17:52
  >> There I was like nose bleed. I thought I
• 17:54
  was like dying because never happened to
• 17:56
  me before.
• 17:57
  >> And of course, you know, she checked me
• 17:59
  in, she checked my vitals, she checked
• 18:02
  my, you know, health record, and I have
• 18:05
  no health issues, right? So, of course,
• 18:08
  you know, she was trying to I was all
• 18:10
  frustrated and concerned where I
• 18:12
  shouldn't have been and she was trying
• 18:14
  to, you know, line up a little bit and
• 18:16
  ask me if I was my
• 18:20
  >> uh so this, you know, access has a huge
• 18:23
  problem because had I known all I had to
• 18:25
  do was like pinch my nose and look down
• 18:28
  and for a couple of minutes um again,
• 18:32
  you know, I'm I'm an immigrant, right?
• 18:34
  Come, you know, I was born in Burma.
• 18:36
  And uh you know healthare system is
• 18:39
  totally different than than what we have
• 18:41
  here. And uh you know I don't really
• 18:44
  utilize healthcare all that much at all.
• 18:47
  You know being healthy and young at the
• 18:49
  time
• 18:50
  >> um you know that really ignited me to do
• 18:54
  something there right the the navigation
• 18:56
  and access there there's a lot of room
• 18:59
  for improvement. You know, listen,
• 19:01
  everyone says that access is important,
• 19:03
  right? But I think that we use the word
• 19:06
  so much like in healthcare.
• 19:08
  >> Yeah.
• 19:09
  >> We kind of forgot what it actually
• 19:11
  means.
• 19:12
  >> Yeah.
• 19:12
  >> What is it? What does access mean to
• 19:14
  you?
• 19:16
  >> So for me, access is like um you know,
• 19:19
  you have the the walls of the the health
• 19:22
  systems or you doctor's offices, right?
• 19:25
  If you are outside the walls of your
• 19:28
  healthcare providers, you could be
• 19:30
  anywhere, right? Trying to reach uh to
• 19:34
  figure out what you need to do, whether
• 19:36
  it is your prescription refills or you
• 19:39
  have, you know, questions regarding your
• 19:41
  medications or you have billing
• 19:43
  questions, you have symptoms, you want
• 19:45
  to schedule your annual, whatever that
• 19:48
  might be. Uh for me, that's access,
• 19:51
  right? you're trying to get something
• 19:54
  done while you are not within the walls
• 19:57
  of your provider.
• 19:59
  >> Well, like why hasn't this been solved
• 20:03
  already? Like why hasn't why is it like
• 20:05
  why is this still an issue? I feel like
• 20:08
  we have the tech, we have talent. Like
• 20:10
  what's like what's getting in the way?
• 20:12
  Like how come this hasn't been solved
• 20:13
  already?
• 20:15
  >> Yeah. So it's a you know it's a pretty
• 20:17
  complicated problem, right? Uh so I just
• 20:20
  did a presentation with some of our
• 20:22
  clients in Atlanta with the u southeast
• 20:26
  primary care partners and we were at the
• 20:29
  uh healthcare cost and times conference.
• 20:32
  So we are implementing AI at one of
• 20:35
  their sites and uh in the presentation
• 20:39
  we talked about
• 20:42
  um forget about AI for now right just
• 20:44
  for primary care uh large group before
• 20:49
  their call to the agent says hello there
• 20:52
  are 23 million different pathways right
• 20:55
  permutations of uh things that could
• 21:00
  branch out. You said 23 million
• 21:03
  >> 23 million pathways,
• 21:06
  right?
• 21:09
  >> It's mindblowing, right? So imagine all
• 21:14
  these different call types from again,
• 21:16
  you know, scheduling, triaging, people
• 21:18
  calling us symptoms and uh you have all
• 21:21
  these visit reasons, right? And then you
• 21:24
  have all these variables from patients
• 21:26
  perspective with uh their demographic
• 21:29
  information, where they live, uh their
• 21:32
  their insurance types,
• 21:35
  um and uh and then you know type of
• 21:37
  conditions that they have and then you
• 21:40
  have all the providers with the
• 21:42
  preferences on who they want to see, how
• 21:44
  they want to triage and then all the end
• 21:47
  points, right? the permutations and
• 21:50
  combinations of all that 23 million is
• 21:53
  pretty standard right it might be a
• 21:55
  little less for you know specialty
• 21:56
  groups like although or neurology or you
• 21:59
  know urology
• 22:01
  uh but not much right so that's just
• 22:05
  entry point
• 22:08
  >> and you know the traditionally people
• 22:11
  have these binders right or tribe of
• 22:13
  knowledge and they have to memorize it
• 22:16
  all they have a lot of job aids to be
• 22:19
  able to help patients on the phone and
• 22:22
  uh that's where we came in right and our
• 22:25
  AI can do most of it now but this is
• 22:28
  healthcare this is not just all about AI
• 22:31
  this is not all just technology right
• 22:34
  there the human touch is so critical
• 22:38
  >> yeah I think
• 22:40
  >> there's one thing that I really
• 22:42
  appreciate about you and it's that
• 22:43
  you're you don't talk about you know AI
• 22:45
  replacing people I think you know I've
• 22:47
  heard
• 22:48
  say this numerous times, but you talk
• 22:50
  about helping people. Where where do you
• 22:52
  think that healthc care is getting AI
• 22:55
  wrong right now?
• 22:58
  Uh a lot of um a lot of hype and a lot
• 23:02
  of
• 23:04
  uh overpromises on oh pretty soon we're
• 23:08
  going to get rid of all your call center
• 23:09
  stat, right? I think that is people who
• 23:14
  say that have no idea what they're
• 23:16
  talking about, right? they don't
• 23:18
  understand healthcare and you know we've
• 23:20
  been doing AI for a long time like this
• 23:23
  is our first product uh 15 years ago was
• 23:27
  AI products right and of course it
• 23:30
  wasn't really uh there was like before
• 23:32
  the LLMs and and we have all that and uh
• 23:36
  even now with the advancement of AI
• 23:39
  human touch is so important right there
• 23:42
  are people who really need to be
• 23:45
  transferred to a live agent or life care
• 23:48
  team member. Otherwise, that could be
• 23:51
  that would have been very devastating
• 23:52
  for the health outcome, right?
• 23:55
  >> People don't think about it and all they
• 23:57
  could talk about is like cutting the
• 23:59
  bottom line and getting rid of the uh
• 24:02
  the cost and the agents so that you
• 24:04
  could save money, right? You know, they
• 24:06
  forget about AI could really enhance
• 24:10
  patient safety. AI could really save
• 24:13
  lives because you know the good thing
• 24:16
  about AI right the human agents they
• 24:19
  could overwhelm trying to process 20
• 24:21
  million different pathways AI could do
• 24:23
  that just like this right and once you
• 24:27
  find somebody who really needs to speak
• 24:29
  with the life agent who needs a human
• 24:30
  touch has to be transferred right so
• 24:33
  what AI is really good is figuring out
• 24:36
  which one needs a human touch
• 24:40
  Right? And we don't talk about that
• 24:42
  enough in our AI conversation and
• 24:45
  healthcare access. Right? That's what
• 24:46
  really bothers me because why don't we
• 24:49
  talk about it? Because it's very
• 24:50
  difficult. It's extremely difficult to
• 24:53
  do it. Right? We've been doing this for
• 24:54
  a long time and we won't stop. You know,
• 24:57
  now we're like almost there. And uh that
• 25:00
  is a really critical piece to solve real
• 25:04
  problems in healthcare access.
• 25:06
  >> Yeah.
• 25:08
  seems like with the it's win or lost in
• 25:11
  the handoffs. Talk about the handoff,
• 25:13
  when to hand off, when not to hand off,
• 25:16
  the complexities around that. I feel
• 25:18
  like there's there's a lot of misnomers.
• 25:20
  I think you we talked about it kind of
• 25:22
  offline around sort of the you know
• 25:24
  these rappers and and how it can be kind
• 25:27
  of when it fails, it fails
• 25:30
  confidently fails as if it's right, but
• 25:33
  it fails. Can you speak to that?
• 25:36
  >> Yeah. and also the uh the hallucination
• 25:39
  right so two problems there that that I
• 25:41
  see so one is just uh AI itself and a
• 25:46
  lot of people are having you know some
• 25:48
  chat GPT rappers to
• 25:52
  automate healthcare access
• 25:54
  the problem with that is healthcare is
• 25:57
  very local healthcare is very
• 25:58
  personalized not just for patients right
• 26:01
  that's why our AI is built on top of our
• 26:04
  CRM uh you know from healthcare care,
• 26:07
  customer relationship management. A lot
• 26:09
  of people stop that, oh yeah, these
• 26:11
  patients are consumers, right? And our
• 26:15
  construct for consumer in healthcare is
• 26:18
  totally different. For us, the you know
• 26:20
  cons the construct consumer uh includes
• 26:23
  patients. Providers are huge consumers
• 26:26
  in healthcare and they have way more
• 26:30
  personalization and way more
• 26:32
  requirements and complexities than than
• 26:34
  patients, right? just to practice their
• 26:36
  medicine. This is how healthcare as a
• 26:40
  system is designed currently. Right? We
• 26:42
  can talk about
• 26:44
  >> the future healthcare but there's a
• 26:45
  whole new podcast episode but here and
• 26:48
  now that's how we are that's our current
• 26:51
  setup for our healthcare system right
• 26:54
  >> and then on top of that there are
• 26:56
  resources whether it is a a uh you know
• 26:59
  operation room or CT scan or mamograms
• 27:03
  right these are also super personalized
• 27:05
  based on the location based on you know
• 27:08
  patients demographic based on the
• 27:09
  providers how they want to treat Right.
• 27:13
  So we have
• 27:15
  data and intelligence. We call it
• 27:18
  healthcare access intelligence for
• 27:20
  patients, providers and all the
• 27:21
  resources, right? So just like you know
• 27:25
  you know the 23 million different
• 27:27
  pathways, right? We have millions of uh
• 27:31
  healthcare access intelligence data
• 27:32
  points that we could use when we are
• 27:35
  helping patients while they're calling
• 27:37
  or while they're going through your
• 27:39
  digital front door on your website,
• 27:41
  right?
• 27:42
  So
• 27:44
  um you have to be able to marry
• 27:48
  you know LLM with very you know
• 27:50
  generative type of approach and
• 27:53
  conversational AI so that you have a
• 27:55
  very personal very humanlike AI talking
• 27:58
  to you or chatting with you at the same
• 28:01
  time when it comes to medical decision
• 28:04
  making on guiding you to the right
• 28:08
  provider at the right care at the right
• 28:10
  location it has to be deter
• 28:12
  deterministic. It has to be uh down to
• 28:15
  the detail of who you have to see, how
• 28:19
  they want to schedule uh this type of
• 28:21
  appointment for you as a patient. you
• 28:23
  know Mike's Clementino
• 28:25
  >> who lives in Chicago right in your
• 28:27
  proximity based on what you're
• 28:29
  experiencing plus type of insurance that
• 28:32
  you have and uh all those have to be
• 28:36
  determin deterministically
• 28:39
  um guided you through to your outcome
• 28:42
  right it can't just be generic LLM
• 28:44
  trying to like all right oh it's it's
• 28:46
  you know 90% probability that you're
• 28:48
  going to actually see this provider
• 28:51
  but
• 28:51
  >> it doesn't work in healthcare
• 28:52
  right? It's not probabilistic.
• 28:55
  >> So that's one thing. Another thing is
• 28:57
  the um once you have this you know
• 29:02
  combining the marriage of you know AI
• 29:04
  and uh you know your probabilistic
• 29:08
  nature of AI and then your very
• 29:11
  deterministic nature of you know
• 29:13
  diagnostic and you know the and triaging
• 29:16
  >> and uh the the second part is the the
• 29:20
  human piece right if you can just
• 29:23
  schedule your well visit your you know
• 29:26
  annual you know, simple acute stuff,
• 29:28
  great, right? You can refill
• 29:30
  prescription, great, right? We're doing
• 29:32
  that autonomously
• 29:33
  um as we speak or, you know, many many
• 29:37
  calls. However, there are times that,
• 29:40
  you know, you have
• 29:43
  complicated symptoms that you need a
• 29:45
  human being uh to to be involved at the
• 29:49
  time. Not only we have to transfer you
• 29:52
  to speak with a live agent or some of
• 29:54
  the care team members, we have to be
• 29:57
  able to transfer the context. Otherwise,
• 30:00
  you know, AI already um our AI already
• 30:03
  collected your demographic information,
• 30:05
  your insurance information and what
• 30:07
  you're experiencing right now. It's like
• 30:09
  you spend two minutes on our AI giving
• 30:12
  all the information, but all you know
• 30:14
  down the road we figured that oh, you
• 30:16
  know, you have you're having a shortness
• 30:18
  of breath. Oh, you got to speak with
• 30:20
  somebody right away, right? When you're
• 30:22
  a transfer, you don't want to repeat all
• 30:24
  the information all over again, right?
• 30:26
  The context have to be there,
• 30:29
  >> right? So, and not just a little AI tool
• 30:33
  or chatbot that sitting somewhere and
• 30:36
  has no visibility or transparency
• 30:39
  uh with your call center and your you
• 30:42
  know, you know, call operations, it's a
• 30:44
  big problem, right? So having that you
• 30:49
  know transfer you speaking with the live
• 30:51
  agent plus all your contacts transfer
• 30:55
  >> that is not a technology right that is a
• 30:58
  operation that is your workflow right
• 31:00
  you only do that once you are helping
• 31:03
  the entire call center and when you are
• 31:06
  helping the whole clinic workflows right
• 31:09
  you can't just be a little cute AI tool
• 31:11
  out there doing you can't do that right
• 31:13
  again solving difficult problems
• 31:16
  That's the only way that you can have a
• 31:18
  meaningful outcome. And you know, at the
• 31:21
  end of the day, you get what you put
• 31:23
  into, right? If you want to solve
• 31:26
  problems like the way it should be and
• 31:29
  you got to put in the work, man. It's
• 31:31
  hard work anywhere you look at it. You
• 31:32
  cannot just, you know, just you can do
• 31:35
  whatever you want, but at the end of the
• 31:37
  day, you got to solve this really
• 31:38
  massive, oddly, you know, difficult
• 31:40
  problems. Listen, you you you've been in
• 31:42
  the game for a while, you know, north of
• 31:44
  a decade, you know, at this.
• 31:47
  >> And look, founders tell everyone, you
• 31:50
  know, about the winds, you know, after
• 31:52
  they happen. I think they they rarely
• 31:56
  talk about the moments where
• 31:59
  they weren't sure if it was going to
• 32:02
  work. Was there ever a moment uh with
• 32:07
  Kona where you just sort of questioned
• 32:09
  everything?
• 32:11
  Yeah, you know, it it happens quite a
• 32:14
  few times in the past. I think it
• 32:16
  happens to all of us that you know what
• 32:18
  this is really hard. Why are we doing
• 32:21
  this? Right? Why are you uh spending all
• 32:24
  your waking hours trying to solve this,
• 32:26
  you know, this particular problem? You
• 32:29
  know, those things come. But, uh, at the
• 32:31
  end of the day, uh, you know, that's
• 32:33
  where you have to have a, um, again,
• 32:36
  back to the vision. You have to really
• 32:38
  believe in your vision. You have to
• 32:40
  understand the impact that you are
• 32:43
  creating in healthcare, right?
• 32:46
  >> Has has that vision changed and modified
• 32:49
  since since you guys started early on or
• 32:51
  has it been a sort of a steady constant?
• 32:54
  >> Oh, we just want to create the most
• 32:55
  personalized experience, you know,
• 32:57
  connecting patient providers in the most
• 32:59
  personalized way possible. That's been
• 33:01
  our vision since day one. Nothing
• 33:04
  changed, you know. It's like we rode
• 33:05
  through waves of you know um you know
• 33:10
  hype right right now the big thing is AI
• 33:13
  right but our vision is still the same
• 33:16
  and uh but I have to say though AI made
• 33:22
  our vision
• 33:24
  more achievable and more real
• 33:27
  >> and it is a enabler that's been missing
• 33:32
  and now all of a sudden the orchestra
• 33:34
  ation that we've been talking about, we
• 33:37
  can just complete the full circle in the
• 33:41
  most courageous way possible with the
• 33:43
  with AI. So, I think this is a this is a
• 33:48
  missing piece and it's all all here now
• 33:51
  and uh you know like I just I felt like
• 33:54
  we just started the company all over
• 33:55
  again, right, with the launch of our AI
• 33:58
  product. So, it's a new found passion.
• 34:01
  Everything just feels like so fresh and
• 34:04
  new and exciting all over again and it
• 34:07
  it's like a fun times all over again.
• 34:11
  >> It's like a renaissance.
• 34:14
  >> Yeah, that's the word that I I was
• 34:16
  looking for. You're exactly right.
• 34:18
  >> Yeah.
• 34:19
  >> So, this been missing the whole time,
• 34:21
  right? It's like we were there but we
• 34:22
  weren't quite there and this was the
• 34:25
  missing piece in the puzzle,
• 34:27
  right? And boom, it just like everything
• 34:29
  starts clicking. It's amazing.
• 34:33
  >> You you said this a few times earlier
• 34:35
  on. I'm just kind of going back to
• 34:36
  because you said, look, you're building
• 34:38
  in healthcare.
• 34:40
  >> Yeah.
• 34:40
  >> It requires patience,
• 34:42
  but you mentioned around surfing.
• 34:44
  Surfing requires
• 34:46
  a lot of patience. Have you thought
• 34:48
  about like the connection between those
• 34:50
  two things? I mean, is is patience been
• 34:52
  sort of natively embedded within you
• 34:56
  because of what the ocean sort of taught
• 34:57
  you? I mean, is is now patience in
• 35:00
  essence a competitive advantage for you?
• 35:03
  >> Yeah. And uh not just that um like you
• 35:06
  know that's a you know gives it gives me
• 35:08
  goosebumps here. Um patience definitely
• 35:12
  it's uh was key here, right? But another
• 35:18
  thing is like if you were to you know
• 35:21
  like you look at life right sometime
• 35:24
  there a bunch of dots on your on your
• 35:26
  board and you have no idea why they're
• 35:28
  there right although things are just
• 35:31
  happening like it's no rhyme or reason
• 35:34
  no rhyme or reason but after a while you
• 35:38
  just start you look look back and look
• 35:41
  at things in perspective you see these
• 35:43
  dots connecting right
• 35:45
  >> yeah yeah you the reasons why they they
• 35:47
  happened to you in the first place.
• 35:49
  >> It's always looking back. It's never
• 35:51
  looking forward. It's always looking
• 35:52
  back.
• 35:53
  >> Exactly. That's a again that's a patient
• 35:55
  part, right? So the fact that you know
• 35:58
  we built all these uh difficult things
• 36:02
  uh we built the entire CRM and now
• 36:05
  because of everything we built around
• 36:08
  these workflow automations CRM handling
• 36:12
  all these complex clinical workflows
• 36:15
  and all that hard work is getting paid
• 36:18
  off right now with our AI right we have
• 36:20
  a huge unique differentiation on how we
• 36:24
  orchestrate things Mhm.
• 36:26
  >> And it's it's it's like magic, right? So
• 36:30
  >> all this hard work is just being paid
• 36:32
  off, right, with this um the AI roll
• 36:36
  out.
• 36:37
  >> Yeah. There's there's something ironic
• 36:39
  about you spending your whole entire
• 36:42
  career sort of building intelligence
• 36:46
  into machines.
• 36:47
  But I'm just wondering here as we're
• 36:49
  talking, I'm like, well, what's what has
• 36:52
  building Kona
• 36:54
  taught you about humans?
• 37:00
  Um, you know, kind of So, you and I were
• 37:02
  just talking about jiu-jitsu the other
• 37:04
  day, right? Your your sons jiu-jitsu.
• 37:07
  >> Yeah.
• 37:08
  >> And you know, jiu-jitsu is hard, right?
• 37:11
  I got into jiu-jitsu because of my kids,
• 37:14
  >> right? You know, I've been I love
• 37:15
  martial arts. I've been training martial
• 37:17
  arts my whole life you know traditional
• 37:19
  martial arts
• 37:20
  >> and get into MMA uh Hawaii is like a
• 37:23
  birthplace of MMA right a lot of
• 37:25
  different
• 37:26
  >> so hooked
• 37:27
  >> in you know and uh when I was in Hawaii
• 37:30
  MMA was so fascinating but when I moved
• 37:32
  to the east coast that you know in DC
• 37:35
  >> and uh I started training jiu-jitsu with
• 37:38
  my kids I'm just being a jiu-jitsu dad
• 37:41
  and it's really difficult right it's so
• 37:45
  complex you're playing a chess game like
• 37:49
  in a very rapid pace in a very very
• 37:51
  violent fashion right and uh you know
• 37:55
  the healthc care is just like that
• 38:01
  right it's very complex very difficult
• 38:04
  and you cannot just quit
• 38:08
  >> if you quit then you know it's like all
• 38:10
  your it's just again it's all over right
• 38:13
  so Um, you know, a lot of surfers are
• 38:19
  drawn into jiu-jitsu and a lot of
• 38:21
  jiu-jitsu guys are drawn into surfing.
• 38:23
  But so, right, it's it's all kind of
• 38:26
  related in my opinion.
• 38:28
  >> Yeah, there's all they're all
• 38:29
  >> the whole culture.
• 38:30
  >> Yeah, the whole culture uh is very uh
• 38:34
  interesting. And uh since you know I
• 38:37
  can't really surf like I used to be in
• 38:38
  Hawaii. So now like my new addiction, my
• 38:40
  outlet is jiu-jitsu. That's where, you
• 38:44
  know, you can really get a little bit of
• 38:46
  balance, right? You go there, you train,
• 38:49
  you spar, and uh for me, it's also a
• 38:52
  good way to bond with my kids. I see
• 38:54
  them training, they're sweating, they're
• 38:56
  crying, they're bleeding, and I'm doing
• 38:58
  the same thing, right? They see that,
• 39:00
  you know, I'm not just I practice what I
• 39:03
  preach. um they see me in BS. So, you
• 39:06
  know, the reason I brought up jiu-jitsu
• 39:08
  is because um
• 39:10
  >> you know, just like entrepreneurship and
• 39:13
  healthcare access, you know, you go
• 39:15
  through some really tough stuff and
• 39:18
  really, you know, your very ugly set of
• 39:20
  you comes out going through these tough
• 39:23
  times, right? And same thing with
• 39:26
  jiu-jitsu, like a lot of your
• 39:28
  insecurity, you know, really ugly side
• 39:31
  of you that you didn't even know that
• 39:32
  you had it, right? It's going to come on
• 39:35
  in the moment and you got to deal with
• 39:36
  that, right? And uh it's
• 39:40
  it's humbling, right? It's super
• 39:42
  humbling and uh so, you know, and
• 39:46
  jiu-jitsu
• 39:48
  really helps um in in a you know, a
• 39:52
  business life. So that you know you're
• 39:56
  more balanced and once you come out of
• 39:58
  it right you're like your mind is just
• 40:01
  blank and it it you know really uh helps
• 40:04
  you think clearly and uh you know so
• 40:07
  much of that patience and humility and
• 40:10
  and you know plays a big dividend while
• 40:13
  you're building your companies you know.
• 40:15
  >> Yeah. So for, you know, we're going to
• 40:18
  wrap up here shortly, but but for every
• 40:20
  entrepreneur that's listening because
• 40:21
  you touched on something I think is
• 40:22
  super important. Maybe they see a
• 40:24
  massive problem, you know, but maybe
• 40:27
  maybe it feels like that that wave is
• 40:29
  too big, you know, figuratively.
• 40:31
  >> Yeah.
• 40:31
  >> What what advice do you give them?
• 40:36
  >> You know, it's uh you know, it's not for
• 40:39
  the faint of heart, right?
• 40:42
  But uh once you drop in, then you got to
• 40:46
  commit, right? If you are,
• 40:49
  you know, if you want to ride a a big
• 40:51
  wave and it's so rewarding, so
• 40:54
  life-changing,
• 40:56
  and
• 40:58
  it's you can't just
• 41:01
  half ass it, right? You pedal,
• 41:04
  you wait for the right moment, you time
• 41:07
  it, and at the end, you got to just jump
• 41:10
  in, jump right in, right? The commitment
• 41:13
  is everything. You just got to commit to
• 41:16
  everything you do and just 100%.
• 41:19
  And then, you know,
• 41:22
  the the nature will take over. Off the
• 41:25
  bat, you have no control, right? You
• 41:27
  just got to ride it.
• 41:30
  >> Yeah.
• 41:31
  What is uh give give a little
• 41:33
  commercial. What's the best way for
• 41:35
  people to follow you to follow the work
• 41:37
  that Kiana is doing? Um yeah, floor is
• 41:40
  yours.
• 41:42
  >> Yeah, kahel.com
• 41:44
  and you can follow me on LinkedIn. Uh
• 41:46
  just okar and uh yeah, if you wanted to
• 41:50
  reach out and talk about surfing,
• 41:52
  jiu-jitsu, and solving difficult
• 41:54
  problems in healthcare, I'm all ears.
• 41:57
  Things that I'm very passionate about.
• 41:59
  Yeah, man. I just want to say uh thank
• 42:01
  you. Thank you for just sort of your
• 42:03
  rigorous honesty, for sharing a little
• 42:05
  bit about your story about you and the
• 42:07
  things that you care about that you're
• 42:08
  doing. I think that what makes your
• 42:10
  story interesting is, you know, whether
• 42:12
  you're in the ocean waiting for the next
• 42:14
  wave or developing something,
• 42:18
  you know, there's a common thread to all
• 42:20
  of this is that you're actually trying
• 42:23
  to understand what's going on beneath
• 42:24
  the surface. So when you mentioned about
• 42:27
  being patient, you know, I've been sort
• 42:29
  of sitting with that is like, you know,
• 42:31
  sometimes
• 42:33
  it's happening for a particular reason.
• 42:36
  The best surfers,
• 42:38
  they know it's never really about
• 42:40
  controlling the wave. It's it's about
• 42:42
  learning how to read it. So your your
• 42:44
  ability to sort of recognize these
• 42:47
  patterns and like you said, dropping
• 42:49
  into a big wave, like you're when you're
• 42:51
  dropping in, you're you're fully
• 42:53
  committed. So, you've been on this wave
• 42:56
  and you're fully committed. Uh, and I
• 42:58
  think that's interesting. So, for those
• 43:00
  of you, if you've been listening and you
• 43:02
  found this to be useful and helpful,
• 43:06
  would you mind sharing it or maybe
• 43:08
  sending it to someone that you care
• 43:10
  about that you think would find uh value
• 43:12
  in it? And if there is maybe a guest
• 43:15
  that you want us to kind of have come on
• 43:17
  the show, let us know. Or if there's a
• 43:19
  topic you want us to explore,
• 43:22
  let us know. And again this is a
• 43:26
  interactive community. It's not just
• 43:28
  about content but it's it's a living
• 43:30
  breathing thing. So thank you so much
• 43:32
  for listening Okar. Great to have you on
• 43:35
  and please everyone keep building with
• 43:37
  purpose and we'll see you next time on
• 43:40
  the Advancing Healthcare Innovation
• 43:41
  Show.
• 43:42
  He likes