Latest / Foul Territory / Former Red Sox/Mets Exec Zack Scott talks Offseason & Rafael Devers on Monster Territory

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Former Red Sox/Mets Exec Zack Scott talks Offseason & Rafael Devers on Monster Territory · Foul Territory

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Speaker 1: Everybody. Welcome to another episode of Monster Territory, brought to
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Speaker 1: you by the Foul Territory Network. We have a very
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Speaker 1: special guest here today, former Red Sox executive Zach Scott. Zach,
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Speaker 1: I believe you were with the Red Sox sixteen years.
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Speaker 1: Sorry if I'm wrong on that. Is that sound about right?
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Speaker 2: Seventeen but close enough.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you worked in, you know, quite a few
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Speaker 1: different things. You're heavy in the analytics, baseball operations. You're
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Speaker 1: the VP of Baseball Research and Operations at one point.
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Speaker 1: Lots of time with the Red Sox. That is a
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Speaker 1: long tenure. I got to ask you know, it's been
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Speaker 1: a few years now, you know, what are your reflections
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Speaker 1: overall from just your time with the Red Sox and
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Speaker 1: considering how long of a tenure that.
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Speaker 2: Was, Well, it was an incredible experience. I'm so grateful
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Speaker 2: for all those years. Obviously we had a ton of
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Speaker 2: success with four championships during that time, but we also
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Speaker 2: had there's a lot of opportunities to learn. I had
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Speaker 2: four different gms I worked for. Unfortunately, we also had
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Speaker 2: a lot of last place finishes, so there were a
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Speaker 2: lot of ups and downs we had, you know, being
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Speaker 2: I enjoyed being in a big market because you're always
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Speaker 2: in the mix with all the different player pools. You
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Speaker 2: can't sit anything out, so you have to be involved.
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Speaker 2: So it was it was really fun, and you know,
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Speaker 2: I kind of grew up in the industry. I started
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Speaker 2: in my mid twenties and really at that time under
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Speaker 2: theo Epstein everyone was pretty much in their twenties and
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Speaker 2: single and no children yet, and it was just a
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Speaker 2: fun place to be and to grow and learn, and
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Speaker 2: you know, it's just spent so much of my life,
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Speaker 2: so I've just really enjoyed it, really grateful for the experience.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, what an incredible time there. I mean like seventeen years.
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Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, you see, you know, so
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Speaker 1: much turnover in the baseball world today. To be in
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Speaker 1: one organization for that long, I mean, that's incredible.
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Speaker 2: You know.
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Speaker 1: You look at I think it's an underrated aspect of
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Speaker 1: someone like Brian Cashman where he's been in that role
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Speaker 1: for I mean how long now, I mean goodness, since
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Speaker 1: ninety eight, you know, and even before he was with
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Speaker 1: the Yankees at that point. So yeah, incredible. But uh,
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Speaker 1: you know, looking at the Red Sox offseason, we'll touch
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Speaker 1: on this real quick. They've made a lot of moves
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Speaker 1: this offseason, trading Figuerett Crochet, signing Alex Bragman, just recently
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Speaker 1: signing Walker Bueller, you know, making a couple other little moves,
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Speaker 1: you know, a world as chatman for the back end
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Speaker 1: of the bullpen, you know, Justin Wilson, Carlos Nevas. If
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Speaker 1: I had to ask you real quick, you know what's
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Speaker 1: a you know, what's a great you would give this
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Speaker 1: Red Sox offseason, especially after, you know, considering how long
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Speaker 1: you were in the Red Sox front office.
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm uh, I'll say I'm with the caveat that.
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Speaker 2: I'm a tough grader. Probably i'd say, you know, B
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Speaker 2: plus is probably the grade. You know, what could they
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Speaker 2: have done better? It's hard to say. I mean, there's
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Speaker 2: there's always things you could do better. But I really
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Speaker 2: like a lot of what they did. I love the
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Speaker 2: Crochet trade. I think that's one of those trades that
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Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense for both teams. They you know,
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Speaker 2: they're still considered a top farm system even though they
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Speaker 2: moved a lot of good young talent in that deal.
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Speaker 2: So I think they had I think they had a
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Speaker 2: really solid obviously and I like the Bregman signing a
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Speaker 2: lot too.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's fun. I'm glad you mentioned the
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Speaker 1: Crochet trade because I love it for the Red Sox obviously,
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Speaker 1: but I love it for the White Sox too. They
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Speaker 1: got a pretty solid package in return. They got Kyle Teel,
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Speaker 1: you know, one of the top prospects in the game,
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Speaker 1: one of the top catching prospects in the game, a
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Speaker 1: guy that just a dirt dog kind of a player.
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna miss him very much, you know, getting a
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Speaker 1: guy like Bradon Montgomery, high upside bat coming out of
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Speaker 1: college last year, would have gone higher in the draft
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Speaker 1: if you didn't get an ankle fracture in the College
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Speaker 1: World Series. I think the White Sox did very well there.
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Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited for their future, you know, getting that,
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Speaker 1: but you know, Crochet obviously huge addition for the Red Sox,
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Speaker 1: a sorely needed ace at the top of the rotation.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm kind of right with you. I'm kind
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Speaker 1: of like an A minus. I guess, depending on my mood,
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Speaker 1: some days i'll say an A. I don't think I'll
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Speaker 1: go a plus. I would have liked to have seen
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Speaker 1: some kind of an extension possibly for maybe Crochet. Hopefully
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Speaker 1: they can get that done. But I think we can
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Speaker 1: all agree it was a pretty good off season, at
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Speaker 1: least for the Red Sox. Now there's been some some
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Speaker 1: news over the last week or so. You know, it's
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Speaker 1: funny because I'm sure you would agree with this where
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Speaker 1: over the years, you know, for as long as someone
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Speaker 1: who's been a Red Sox fan, they know very well
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Speaker 1: you can have good times and then all of a
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Speaker 1: sudden the next morning, you know, it's not so good
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Speaker 1: of a day. That day there's some bad news followed up.
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Speaker 1: And you know, I think of a good example where
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Speaker 1: you win the World Series in two thousand and four,
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Speaker 1: theo Epstein's in a guerrilla suit in two thousand and five.
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Speaker 1: So that's kind of how it is in Boston. And
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Speaker 1: unfortunately after the Alex Bregman signing, very happy Tims and
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Speaker 1: then Raphael Devers he's sitting on the bench in Fort Myers,
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Speaker 1: asked if he would get off a third base and
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Speaker 1: he said no, And uh, it's it's been a rather
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Speaker 1: interesting conversation the past few days. I mean, I got
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Speaker 1: to ask you here, based off your own experience in
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Speaker 1: the front office when you had something like this with
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Speaker 1: a player where they you know, didn't want to move
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Speaker 1: off a position. You know, maybe you bring in a
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Speaker 1: guy you know, kind of what do you think about
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Speaker 1: this situation and how do you think would be the
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Speaker 1: best way to handle this moving forward.
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure what was going on behind the
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Speaker 2: scenes there, but I think in general you want to
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Speaker 2: try and get ahead of these things as much as
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Speaker 2: you can, so as soon as you know. You can't
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Speaker 2: do it too early because you may not sign Alex Bregman,
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Speaker 2: and so once you do, though, I think you immediately
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Speaker 2: need to have a conversation with the key players involved
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Speaker 2: and that's your really your infield, but especially Raffie Devers.
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Speaker 2: I would have thought, and maybe this is true, that
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Speaker 2: you'd have a plan. You'd have the GM and the
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Speaker 2: manager on the same page about kind of what the
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Speaker 2: plan is in the in that Bregman would be informed
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Speaker 2: as to what the expectation is for him position wise.
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Speaker 2: I think you'd go into it with a with a plan. A.
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Speaker 2: Obviously you can change those things as you learn more
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Speaker 2: about the players involved in spring training or whatnot, and
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Speaker 2: things can change with health and other things that happen.
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Speaker 2: But I think you want to already kind of know,
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Speaker 2: like we're bringing in Alex Bregman to play position, you know,
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Speaker 2: second base or third base, and have a plan in
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Speaker 2: mind and already immediately communicate what that plan is to
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Speaker 2: the players. It affects like Casses and Devors, and maybe
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Speaker 2: you sheet it like trying to have that conversation. They
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Speaker 2: may have had that conversation, and then you know, guys
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Speaker 2: just kind of go rogue with the media. I tend
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Speaker 2: to be pretty laid back about how how players handle
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Speaker 2: things in the media. I'm a broken record for people
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Speaker 2: that have worked with me that I'm always saying, like, hey,
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Speaker 2: this is entertainment. We're not you know, it's not Pentagon's secrets.
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Speaker 2: If things leak out, I never really freak out. If
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Speaker 2: players kind of say the suboptimal thing to the media,
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Speaker 2: that's not a huge deal. You know. In some ways,
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Speaker 2: you want your your big money player like Devors to
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Speaker 2: want to be the third baseman, you know. I think
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Speaker 2: it was something that you know, with Bogarts at short
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Speaker 2: it was one of those conversations that sometimes I think
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Speaker 2: there was fear that he we may want him to
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Speaker 2: move at some point, and I think you have an
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Speaker 2: open dialogue about those things, and you know understand the
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Speaker 2: players not always going to want to do it, but
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Speaker 2: you have to have good communication to get to where
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Speaker 2: you want to be as an organization.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you bring up a good point
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Speaker 1: there where you know there's ifs in this situation. A
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Speaker 1: big if is Christian Campbell right now for the Red Sox,
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Speaker 1: one of the top prospects in all of Major League
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Speaker 1: Baseball according to reports you know from you know, the
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Speaker 1: guys in Boston, they seem to be very high on him,
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Speaker 1: and it seems like they're giving him every bit of
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Speaker 1: a lane to try and win the job out of
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Speaker 1: spring training. You know, if you were to kind of
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Speaker 1: go into this, you know, when you have a young
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Speaker 1: player like that, even though you might think he's ready,
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Speaker 1: do you feel like he really needs to If you
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Speaker 1: were in this situation, do you think he would really
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Speaker 1: need to just knock your socks off? No pun intended there,
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Speaker 1: but do you think he would have to have an
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Speaker 1: incredible showing, you know, in spring training check off all
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Speaker 1: the boxes to kind of you know, step in here
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Speaker 1: to where you would cause that position change or do
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Speaker 1: you think it would be better off for everyone involved
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Speaker 1: to where maybe he goes down to Triple A to
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Speaker 1: start off the year, you know, for a little bit
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Speaker 1: of time, and then come up when the time is right.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm not a big fan of young
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Speaker 2: players breaking with the team out of spring training. I
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Speaker 2: think when you do that, you're almost removing your safety
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Speaker 2: net throughout the long course of one hundred and sixty
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Speaker 2: two games. Him being in Triple A is a good thing,
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Speaker 2: and he's gonna come up and play like this guy.
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Speaker 2: They should be excited about this player. Obviously, they're trying
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Speaker 2: to figure out what is what best position fits for him,
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Speaker 2: and it sounds like, you know, from what I understand,
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Speaker 2: they're pretty positive about him being able to play second base,
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Speaker 2: play the outfield and think he'll work hard. He's got
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Speaker 2: the right makeup to do it. So, you know, that's
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Speaker 2: not so much the issue. But if you look at it,
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Speaker 2: he's really only had about six hundred plate appearances in
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Speaker 2: the minors, which is really low. You know, I know,
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Speaker 2: he's a college guy. You know, Dustin Pedroia had twice
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Speaker 2: as many play appearances in the miners before coming up,
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Speaker 2: and he came up at a relative quick you know,
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Speaker 2: cycle bookiets high school player, so it's a little different,
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Speaker 2: but he had twice as many play appearances the minor, so,
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Speaker 2: you know, I remember this kind of reminds me of
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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen spring training with Jackie Bradley had a ridiculous
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Speaker 2: spring training, and you know, we were coming off a
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Speaker 2: tough twenty twelve. We brought in some you know, a
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Speaker 2: plus makeup character guys, brought in a bunch of free agents,
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Speaker 2: trying to really change the culture in there, and then
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Speaker 2: to have him play so well, and if he didn't
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Speaker 2: make the team out of out of spring training, it
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Speaker 2: would almost seem like be sending possibly the message to
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Speaker 2: the clubhouse that we don't care about winning. You know,
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Speaker 2: we're not going to break camp with the best players. Now,
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Speaker 2: we had an injury to David Ortiz, so that kind
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Speaker 2: of what led to him coming up, and he obviously
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Speaker 2: struggled right away, which is a cautionary tale on spring
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Speaker 2: training performance. Right, he had an outstanding spring, but you know,
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Speaker 2: he wasn't he was in the early He hadn't had
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Speaker 2: that many played appearances when he came up, so it
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Speaker 2: probably wasn't ideal, but we did it because of messaging
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Speaker 2: that we were saying, hey, it's important to win, and
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Speaker 2: we're going to reward players that come out and perform.
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Speaker 2: I don't think it really works usually that well now
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Speaker 2: he you know, Christian Campbell would be maybe an exception
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Speaker 2: to that. But I think the best outcome, long term,
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Speaker 2: meaning even just the long term of this season, not
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Speaker 2: even talking beyond years, is to have him start, probably
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Speaker 2: in triple A, regardless of how well he performs in
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Speaker 2: spring training, because you have you know, as Tristan Cosa said,
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Speaker 2: you have grown men for those positions. You have guys
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Speaker 2: that are pretty that are very good players. I mean,
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Speaker 2: you could be top five at third and second base
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Speaker 2: with Devers and Bragman so at each of those positions.
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Speaker 2: So why not do that, and then you'll have this
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Speaker 2: depth piece. You have him play the outfield and second base,
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Speaker 2: play around the field and triple A. Have him ready
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Speaker 2: to go when you have a need that comes up,
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Speaker 2: because you can't predict what needs you're going to have.
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Speaker 2: There's going to be injuries, and you'll have him ready
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Speaker 2: to go when the time's right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of the way. That's kind of where
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Speaker 1: I'm at. Well, I think the good thing here for
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Speaker 1: the Red Sox is like you said, they have that
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Speaker 1: flexibility here to where you don't need to necessarily, you know,
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Speaker 1: put your pieces in place right away. And that's kind
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Speaker 1: of the beautiful thing about baseball is every single time
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Speaker 1: it tends to work itself out, usually in the end.
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Speaker 1: But I got to ask you, you know, you were
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Speaker 1: with the organization I believe at least a few years
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Speaker 1: while Raffi was in the organization. You know, what are
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Speaker 1: your thoughts on him moving forward? Uh? You know, obviously
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Speaker 1: he's had his struggles at third base over the years.
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Speaker 1: Now when you're looking at the advanced metrics, whether that's
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Speaker 1: out's above average, or fielding run value or you know, range,
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Speaker 1: whatever it may be. Uh, he does not rank very
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Speaker 1: well in those areas. You know during your time, did
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Speaker 1: you did you guys, have you know these thoughts, these
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Speaker 1: question marks when it came to Raffi long term at
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Speaker 1: third base and if so, like, where do you think
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Speaker 1: would be the best position for him or best spot
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Speaker 1: for him moving forward?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely part of the conversation with him.
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Speaker 2: It was, you know, the weakest part of his game
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Speaker 2: in the area where he needed to really work to improve.
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Speaker 2: And you know, I remember some conversations, conversations when we had,
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Speaker 2: you know, Raffi and Bogarts on the left side of
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Speaker 2: her infield talking about at some point that may be
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Speaker 2: the right side of our infield. And I think, you know,
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Speaker 2: at some point he's very young still, he's what twenty
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Speaker 2: seven years old, twenty eight years old. Yeah, he's still
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Speaker 2: pretty young. A defensive peak tends to be a little earlier.
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Speaker 2: It tends to be in your mid twenties, so that
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Speaker 2: does decline faster than your bat. But he's such as
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Speaker 2: he's not a good defensive third baseman, and that's okay
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Speaker 2: because he's such a good offensive at first baseman. He's
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Speaker 2: probably third baseman. He's probably still a top three third
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Speaker 2: baseman in the game. But you know, for me, I
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Speaker 2: do think of probably in the future the move is
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Speaker 2: to first base. I think he could be an average
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Speaker 2: first basement defensively, and I think he's too young to
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Speaker 2: move to d H. I don't think that's really ideal
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Speaker 2: for him. I still think he'd be one of the
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Speaker 2: top five first basemen in the game all around. So
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Speaker 2: you know, I do think that's probably the future, but
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Speaker 2: there's no need to do it right now.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's actually been a talking point this offseason
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Speaker 1: because you know, Tristan Cassas, he was in the trade rumors.
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Speaker 1: At one point, he was on the trade block talking
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Speaker 1: about with the Mariners possibly being a destination, and people thinking, oh, no, Raffi,
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Speaker 1: he he there's no way he should play first base.
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Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's so bad at third and I mean,
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Speaker 1: my goodness, he's gonna he's gonna pull a hammy at
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Speaker 1: first base or whatever. But I've always looked at it thinking,
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Speaker 1: you know, I think back to Kevin Nucleus, who was
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Speaker 1: a better defender overall, Uh, but he was like an
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Speaker 1: average third baseman, but then he became a gold Glove
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Speaker 1: first baseman. And I think with Raffi, I kind of
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Speaker 1: look at the way he moves around out at third base.
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Speaker 1: You know, he has a good arm as well, and
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Speaker 1: I think he would fit fine at first base if
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Speaker 1: that's the direction they ended up going. You know, in
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Speaker 1: the future, who knows what happens, you know with Casus
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Speaker 1: or maybe even Flagg Junior next off season. We'll have
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Speaker 1: to wait and see. But uh, it's gonna be interesting
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Speaker 1: moving forward with Raffi. But speaking of Cassis, Uh, there
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Speaker 1: were also some comments this past week where it actually
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Speaker 1: seemed like people were they got to you start to
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Speaker 1: see the flames come down a little bit with Raffi,
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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, Tristan hops on the
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Speaker 1: bench and then the flames reignited again. I got to
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Speaker 1: ask you your thoughts on his comments. You know a
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Speaker 1: lot of people out there saying, you know, he's he's
15:06
Speaker 1: like coming off like he was the manager, right or
15:09
Speaker 1: coming off as the chief baseball officer. I think even
15:12
Speaker 1: someone in the media asked him like, oh, are you
15:14
Speaker 1: the CBO or something like that. From a front office perspective,
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Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned earlier like yes, you like these
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Speaker 1: guys talking. But when it came to Tristan's comments about
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Speaker 1: you know, how he thinks the lineup should be or
15:29
Speaker 1: you know, what they should do organizationally, he was saying,
15:31
Speaker 1: you know, like you brought up earlier in the grown
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Speaker 1: men comment where these guys should go down to the
15:36
Speaker 1: minors kind of like from a front office point of view,
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Speaker 1: do you feel like maybe he went a little too
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Speaker 1: far with that or kind of where where where are
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Speaker 1: you at with that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean you never when you when you're in
15:47
Speaker 2: a market like Boston or New York where there's a
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Speaker 2: lot of media attention, you really just don't want to
15:52
Speaker 2: have to deal with more noise. And so when a player,
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Speaker 2: when Kasa said that, you know, my indusiry reaction was, oh,
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Speaker 2: man like, just say, that's not my job, that's the
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Speaker 2: manager's job. I'm and I'm just gonna do. But I
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Speaker 2: don't think it's the end of the world. I don't
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Speaker 2: understand when people get angry about that and start like
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Speaker 2: get rid of him. He's a you know, not a
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Speaker 2: team player. If that's if that's what people how they respond,
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Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense to me. He clearly is a
16:15
Speaker 2: quirky personality. There's some other things that I've always obviously
16:18
Speaker 2: come up over the years, and that's okay, but I
16:21
Speaker 2: you know, again, it goes back to what I said
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Speaker 2: at the top, which is being proactive in getting on
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Speaker 2: the same page about your communication. They may have done that,
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Speaker 2: and he may have just said what he wanted to say,
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Speaker 2: but I do have some concerns with that and with
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Speaker 2: you know, some of the stories earlier talking about Bregman,
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Speaker 2: and you'd hear that like, well, Bresla doesn't necessarily want him,
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Speaker 2: but Cora and Sam Kennedy want them. Those are not
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Speaker 2: great stories to be out there. Again, not the end
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Speaker 2: of the world. It's baseball, it's entertainment, it's sports. But I,
16:53
Speaker 2: you know, you start reading between the lines, I wonder
16:55
Speaker 2: what's going on, Like why can we get on the
16:57
Speaker 2: same page? Is this something that you know Craig being
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Speaker 2: someone that's relatively new to this role and relatively new
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Speaker 2: to front offices, maybe that's a learning experience where it's like, Okay,
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Speaker 2: I need to be more proactive and making sure we're
17:08
Speaker 2: all aligned on even if we don't agree, we have
17:11
Speaker 2: alignment on what we're doing and how we want to
17:14
Speaker 2: approach things publicly with the players and just have that
17:18
Speaker 2: dialogue in those conversations. That's why it's important to make
17:21
Speaker 2: sure you're talking to keep in open lines of communication
17:23
Speaker 2: all the time.
17:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to ask about that too. Where you know,
17:28
Speaker 1: it seems like all off season and even coming into
17:31
Speaker 1: spring training, it seems like everyone wants to be successful,
17:34
Speaker 1: everyone wants to win, everyone wants to do the best
17:37
Speaker 1: they can. But it feels like you're I don't want
17:39
Speaker 1: to say too many cooks in the kitchen, but it
17:41
Speaker 1: feels like you almost like there's a lot of differing
17:44
Speaker 1: opinions going on. Was there ever a moment when you
17:47
Speaker 1: were with the Red Sox where it felt like things
17:50
Speaker 1: got I don't want to say chaotic, but where it
17:53
Speaker 1: just felt like things weren't really on the same page.
17:56
Speaker 2: Well, I think in the competitive industry you're in, especially
17:59
Speaker 2: in a place Boston, where you want to win all
18:02
Speaker 2: the time and you're spending a lot of money. It's
18:04
Speaker 2: high stakes, right, so you have highly competitive people that
18:08
Speaker 2: really want to succeed, and so it's always coming from
18:11
Speaker 2: a good place. It's coming from we want to win.
18:13
Speaker 2: But you know, you've got to just make sure again
18:16
Speaker 2: that word alignment is key. You know, you don't always
18:20
Speaker 2: have agreement, and you don't want to have agreement. I
18:22
Speaker 2: think it's healthy to have, you know, good respectful debate
18:25
Speaker 2: and disagreement, but you want to keep it in house
18:29
Speaker 2: because it's only going to cause distractions. So I think,
18:33
Speaker 2: you know, making sure you kind of have those conversations
18:35
Speaker 2: where you when there is a plan of what you're
18:38
Speaker 2: going to do and it's coming from you know where,
18:41
Speaker 2: if that's the chief Baseball officer or whoever, it's okay,
18:45
Speaker 2: I respect that you disagree with me, but can I
18:47
Speaker 2: have your support on this as we move forward. Those
18:50
Speaker 2: are the key things that may or may not be happening,
18:52
Speaker 2: but you need to have happened, and they need to
18:54
Speaker 2: mean it when they say yes I do, and not
18:56
Speaker 2: kind of just go and vent to a media member
18:59
Speaker 2: or someone else saying like I really want to get
19:00
Speaker 2: this guy, but so and so does 't, and you
19:03
Speaker 2: just don't want to have that because it really seems
19:07
Speaker 2: like there isn't alignment, which could lead to other issues
19:09
Speaker 2: down the road.
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20:11
Speaker 1: Do you think there's like with that? Do you think
20:13
Speaker 1: you know, there's always the old phrase, you know it
20:16
Speaker 1: always success or failure, always trickles from the top. Do
20:19
Speaker 1: you think this could be, you know, possibly something with ownership,
20:23
Speaker 1: you know, communication from there, or do you think it's
20:26
Speaker 1: just really a lot of guys in the front office
20:28
Speaker 1: that are you know, just passionate about what they're doing
20:30
Speaker 1: and maybe they're just not fully seeing eye eye You know,
20:33
Speaker 1: where do you think this? You know, I don't say
20:35
Speaker 1: I don't say chaos, that's not the right word. But
20:37
Speaker 1: you know, you're seeing these disagreements coming out into the public.
20:40
Speaker 1: You know, how do you think where? Where? Where do
20:42
Speaker 1: you think this is coming from?
20:44
Speaker 2: I think it comes with pressure, right. The Red Sox
20:46
Speaker 2: have been disappointing, you know, fairly mediocre for a while now.
20:51
Speaker 2: There's a lot of frustration within their fan base of
20:55
Speaker 2: not being aggressive enough. And I'm sure some people wanted
20:59
Speaker 2: to be aggressive and so if they felt like, well,
21:02
Speaker 2: I wanted to be aggressive and I don't want to
21:04
Speaker 2: where this criticism. That's where I think this stuff comes from,
21:07
Speaker 2: is people trying to separate themselves from maybe other people
21:10
Speaker 2: that were more conservative and how they wanted to approach things.
21:13
Speaker 2: You know, they made a lot of public they kind
21:15
Speaker 2: of shot themselves in the foot sometimes by making public
21:17
Speaker 2: statements to set not managing expectations, well, setting expectations really high. Obviously,
21:22
Speaker 2: the full throttle comment from a couple of off season ago,
21:26
Speaker 2: even this off season, say we're going to spend We're
21:29
Speaker 2: going to go over the luxury try. There's no real
21:31
Speaker 2: upside to saying stuff like that because you can't control how,
21:35
Speaker 2: you know, the off season goes. You could offer Wan
21:38
Speaker 2: Soda seven hundred million dollars and another team can offer
21:41
Speaker 2: them sixty five million more than that, and you know
21:46
Speaker 2: you can't control it. It's not fully in your control.
21:49
Speaker 2: And that's what makes those jobs difficult, So there's no
21:53
Speaker 2: reason I think they could do a better job of
21:55
Speaker 2: managing expectations. I guess that's what I would say to that.
21:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. I want to also touch on
22:01
Speaker 1: that too, where you know, do you think that there's
22:04
Speaker 1: been a bit of a switch, a bit of a
22:07
Speaker 1: switch flipped this offseason where you know, they kind of
22:11
Speaker 1: it seems like they've turned the page at least a
22:13
Speaker 1: little bit when it comes to their aggressiveness. Do you
22:17
Speaker 1: think that, you know, possibly came from, like you said,
22:21
Speaker 1: maybe the pressure from the public, or do you feel
22:24
Speaker 1: like maybe they just like where they're at as an organization,
22:27
Speaker 1: or maybe a little bit of both. You know, what
22:29
Speaker 1: do you think caused that switch right there?
22:33
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know for sure. I would think the
22:36
Speaker 2: pressure had a lot to do with kind of getting
22:38
Speaker 2: over the finish line with some of the deals, like
22:40
Speaker 2: the crochet trade being you know, I think that took
22:43
Speaker 2: a while. My understanding is that it took a while,
22:46
Speaker 2: and who knows what kind of forces push it over
22:49
Speaker 2: the edge. But when you hear the rhetoric that we've
22:50
Speaker 2: heard in some of the reports of disagreement, like to
22:54
Speaker 2: me that says there are other voices trying to push
22:56
Speaker 2: things for you. You also have the dynamic of theo
22:58
Speaker 2: Epstein being back in the organization and him being very
23:00
Speaker 2: close with Sam Kennedy, him being someone that I obviously
23:04
Speaker 2: worked for and would say is on the more aggressive
23:08
Speaker 2: side of the spectrum, and that probably has something to
23:12
Speaker 2: do with it too. It's a tough The industry has
23:16
Speaker 2: changed a lot in my time, and a lot of
23:18
Speaker 2: that is maybe someone would say the fault of people
23:22
Speaker 2: like me with the analytics backgrounds, but a lot of
23:25
Speaker 2: how decisions are made. There's a lot of analytical tools
23:28
Speaker 2: that are used to do this. And while I think
23:32
Speaker 2: that's great because their frameworks to help you make decisions,
23:35
Speaker 2: sometimes people see them more as formulaic and then it's like, well,
23:39
Speaker 2: this is the value of this player, and if we
23:41
Speaker 2: go over that value, then we're doing something bad. And
23:44
Speaker 2: to me, it's like, well, if you're the Boston Red
23:46
Speaker 2: Sox or the New York Yankees of New York Mets,
23:48
Speaker 2: you're not in the business of You're not getting a
23:51
Speaker 2: trophy for having the most efficient payroll. You don't have
23:54
Speaker 2: the constraints of a Tampa Bay So by definition, you're
23:59
Speaker 2: going to be overpaid for some players. That doesn't mean
24:01
Speaker 2: there's no limits. It doesn't mean you just go crazy,
24:05
Speaker 2: because that's how you could, you know, get yourself into
24:08
Speaker 2: a trap like we did before the Daughters build us
24:11
Speaker 2: out in twenty twelve with Crawford and Adrian Gonzalez.
24:15
Speaker 1: Me to this day, I still yeah, like I was
24:17
Speaker 1: like wow.
24:17
Speaker 2: What Yeah, we were the same way when it was
24:21
Speaker 2: when they approached us about it. But you know, I
24:24
Speaker 2: think you want to maintain flexibility. You have to look
24:26
Speaker 2: at your roster and say where are we Are we
24:28
Speaker 2: in a place to compete they are? They have still
24:31
Speaker 2: have three of the best prospects in baseball even after
24:34
Speaker 2: that big trade. So you're going to have young talent
24:37
Speaker 2: integrated coming into your roster that's going to be making
24:39
Speaker 2: far less money than what they're going to be producing
24:42
Speaker 2: if they turn out as to be as good as
24:44
Speaker 2: they you know, people think they are, and so you
24:46
Speaker 2: can take those bigger risks. We could sign a David
24:49
Speaker 2: Price to the deal that we signed them to because
24:50
Speaker 2: we had Mookie Bets and Jackie Bradley and Andrew Ben
24:53
Speaker 2: and Tandi and Raphael Evers. We had this talent pipeline
24:56
Speaker 2: that was going to be quote unquote underpaid right for
24:59
Speaker 2: what they're producing because of the system. So, you know,
25:01
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of the mindset that needs to
25:05
Speaker 2: be there. I don't think it was always there over
25:07
Speaker 2: the last several years. I think it was you know,
25:10
Speaker 2: sometimes in this happens with a lot of teams, you're
25:13
Speaker 2: you're kind of you're trying to win deals whatever that
25:16
Speaker 2: means to you, rather than win games. And so I
25:20
Speaker 2: think it's important that if you try so Andrew Freeman
25:22
Speaker 2: has said this publicly, if you try to win every
25:24
Speaker 2: free agent deal by a dollar, you're never You're going
25:26
Speaker 2: to finish third all the time. You're never going to
25:28
Speaker 2: sign the guy. So it's uncomfortable, but you have to
25:31
Speaker 2: get uncomfortable to get the guys that you need to
25:34
Speaker 2: make your team better.
25:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad they took that step about this offseason.
25:39
Speaker 1: You know, and when you look back over the years
25:42
Speaker 1: of John Henry his under the ownership, where this off
25:47
Speaker 1: season it kind of falls right in line with how
25:50
Speaker 1: it's been in the past, where you know, he doesn't
25:53
Speaker 1: like giving the long or he doesn't like signing off
25:54
Speaker 1: on the long term deals for guys over thirty Bregman.
25:58
Speaker 1: That ended up being a good example there where they
26:00
Speaker 1: went with the higher AAV and then if you go back,
26:03
Speaker 1: you know, to pass if past with the organizational farm system,
26:09
Speaker 1: they've always been in a pretty good place. You know,
26:11
Speaker 1: payroll has usually been in a tidy place when they
26:14
Speaker 1: get aggressive. Do you feel like they followed that blueprint
26:17
Speaker 1: here of this offseason.
26:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I think it's all contextual when you're aggressive,
26:24
Speaker 2: And you know, it made sense when Higham came aboard.
26:28
Speaker 2: I was only with him for one year, but it
26:29
Speaker 2: made sense at that time given the outlook of our
26:32
Speaker 2: team and the timing of where our prospects were and
26:35
Speaker 2: where our farm system was, that that wasn't the time
26:39
Speaker 2: to be aggressive and going into twenty twenty and so,
26:43
Speaker 2: but at some point it is, and I think, you know,
26:46
Speaker 2: some one of the things that mixed those plans up
26:48
Speaker 2: a little was that they had a surprisingly good season
26:50
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one and made it almost got to
26:53
Speaker 2: the World Series. And I think they had a lot
26:55
Speaker 2: of good fortune. They were like the healthiest team in baseball.
26:57
Speaker 2: A lot of things went right, and that probably was
26:59
Speaker 2: an unrealistic expectation that kind of made ended up leading
27:03
Speaker 2: to some of the pressure down the road when they
27:06
Speaker 2: didn't meet those expectations again. So but yeah, I think
27:09
Speaker 2: that's definitely part of it. I mean, look, John Henry's
27:12
Speaker 2: not wrong if he thinks that these long term deals
27:14
Speaker 2: are bad. They are. I mean, you're it's the riskiest
27:17
Speaker 2: part of the market, but you have to construct a
27:19
Speaker 2: roster that allows you to take those kind of risks.
27:22
Speaker 2: But yeah, I've I've always said to people that work
27:25
Speaker 2: with me, you know, it's like a really the free
27:28
Speaker 2: agency is like a really robust housing market where it's
27:30
Speaker 2: a bidding you're getting into bidding wars, but you're buying.
27:33
Speaker 2: You're buying cars, not houses. You're buying depreciating assets if
27:37
Speaker 2: you're going to you know, past age thirty three, thirty four, whatever,
27:41
Speaker 2: And so they're high risk deals, but sometimes there are
27:46
Speaker 2: contexts where it makes sense to do it.
27:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And I also want to bring up too.
27:51
Speaker 1: You mentioned Theoebstein earlier, and you know he came back
27:53
Speaker 1: to the Red Sox or to the Family Sports Group
27:56
Speaker 1: last year, and Sam Kennedy touched on theo Epstein being
28:01
Speaker 1: a bit of a i'd say a mentor for Craig Breslow.
28:04
Speaker 1: He actually made these comments. I want to read them
28:06
Speaker 1: to saying THEO was really really helpful and provided counsel
28:10
Speaker 1: along the way that helped us think about different deal
28:12
Speaker 1: structures and also ripping up different deal structures when they
28:16
Speaker 1: don't work. I really think it helped Brez in terms
28:19
Speaker 1: of you're talking about perhaps the best negotiator in the
28:22
Speaker 1: history of baseball agents in Brez is still a year
28:25
Speaker 1: and a half, two years on the job, you know,
28:27
Speaker 1: thinking back to your time with THEO, obviously a highly
28:30
Speaker 1: successful executive in the front office with both the Red
28:34
Speaker 1: Sox and the Cubs. Do you think what do you
28:38
Speaker 1: think he brought to the table, you know, other than
28:40
Speaker 1: what we just read here, you know, talking about different
28:43
Speaker 1: deal structures and whatnot. How big of a role do
28:46
Speaker 1: you think he's been with Breslo since coming back to
28:49
Speaker 1: the Red Sox. I know, obviously you don't know, you
28:51
Speaker 1: know exactly, but based off of your you know, experience
28:54
Speaker 1: with THEO, how do you think he you know, could
28:57
Speaker 1: have helped Breslo here.
28:59
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's amos. He's a tremendous resource to really
29:03
Speaker 2: anyone there. THEO is a deal maker. He is someone
29:07
Speaker 2: that's how I always viewed him. He's someone, like I said,
29:10
Speaker 2: he's on the aggressive side, but he's not. You know,
29:12
Speaker 2: if I was to kind of look at the four
29:14
Speaker 2: gms I worked for, Dave Dombraski probably the most aggressive
29:18
Speaker 2: when it comes to those types of deals, and and
29:20
Speaker 2: THEO would be kind of closer to the middle, but
29:22
Speaker 2: on the aggressive side, and maybe the other guys would
29:25
Speaker 2: be a little bit more conservative. With how I am
29:27
Speaker 2: being farther left on the conservative part of that scale.
29:31
Speaker 2: But you know, THEO is a deal maker, so that's
29:34
Speaker 2: the perspective he's bringing, but he's also very smart. He's
29:37
Speaker 2: not just going to make deals to get deals done.
29:39
Speaker 2: It's going to be very targeted. But he you know,
29:41
Speaker 2: there's a ton of experience there obviously negotiating deals. And
29:45
Speaker 2: like you said, Craig's you know, relatively new to front
29:47
Speaker 2: offices in general, right, Like he went pretty he rose
29:51
Speaker 2: pretty quickly after his playing career. Good for him. But
29:54
Speaker 2: you know, there's a database there in Theo's mind of
29:56
Speaker 2: all the experience he's had. And he's also very creat
30:00
Speaker 2: to help think through things, so that he's a great
30:02
Speaker 2: resource to have. And and I'd say overall, you know,
30:04
Speaker 2: there's still some relative inexperience at the top of baseball
30:09
Speaker 2: operations there. So I think having him there as someone
30:11
Speaker 2: who's obviously very seasoned is just great for a lot
30:14
Speaker 2: of people.
30:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And it kind of the what I've
30:19
Speaker 1: been thinking with Craig, because he's so new, it's you know,
30:23
Speaker 1: I've seen people say, oh, he's not doing enough for
30:25
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it may be. But I've been kind
30:27
Speaker 1: of thinking here, you know, going back the last year
30:30
Speaker 1: or so. You know, obviously, you know, it depends on
30:32
Speaker 1: where they're at aggressiveness wise, you know, when it comes
30:35
Speaker 1: to pursuing these guys. But it kind of feels like,
30:38
Speaker 1: you know, THEO coming back into the fold, it almost
30:42
Speaker 1: like it feels like he's you know, kind of nudged
30:45
Speaker 1: him a little bit. Would you say, you know, THEO
30:49
Speaker 1: could have possibly give him, you know, gave him that
30:52
Speaker 1: insight to where, you know, maybe don't hold back so much.
30:56
Speaker 1: Or do you think he was you know a guy
30:58
Speaker 1: that say, you know, could say to him like, hey,
31:01
Speaker 1: it's okay to be a little aggressive here. Yeah, I
31:04
Speaker 1: think he'd probably won't be more the latter right to
31:08
Speaker 1: push a little bit and say, hey, you know, you
31:10
Speaker 1: can start getting into these three four player trades and
31:14
Speaker 1: really start persevering on player number three in that deal,
31:18
Speaker 1: and really what a lot of experienced GMS like THEO,
31:22
Speaker 1: like Dave Debreski will say, like, you know, most of
31:26
Speaker 1: those a lot of the players aren't going to work out,
31:27
Speaker 1: but there's going to be probably you know, who are
31:30
Speaker 1: the players that potentially impact stars and focus on that
31:33
Speaker 1: and then in the context of your current team and
31:36
Speaker 1: the farm system that you have, kind of look at
31:38
Speaker 1: it that way because the Red Sox, when you have
31:41
Speaker 1: a top farm system and you have so many prospects,
31:43
Speaker 1: there's a surplus there.
31:44
Speaker 2: Right. It's not just looking at each player in a vacuum,
31:46
Speaker 2: it's looking at it in context. And I think to
31:49
Speaker 2: be able to have someone there that can kind of
31:51
Speaker 2: give you that perspective to say it's okay to be
31:53
Speaker 2: aggressive in this situation and not let you know, the
31:56
Speaker 2: third player and a deal be the thing that holds
31:58
Speaker 2: it up. I don't know if that's what happened, but
32:01
Speaker 2: I've said that's an example of what I could see
32:03
Speaker 2: him doing, is to kind of give you that confidence
32:05
Speaker 2: to move forward. These are hard decisions. It's it's you know,
32:08
Speaker 2: it's not like you're working in the accounting department at
32:11
Speaker 2: the Boston Red Sox, where the team performance has really
32:13
Speaker 2: nothing to do with your job security. You know, other
32:17
Speaker 2: than theo Epstein maybe some other Hall of Fame executives,
32:22
Speaker 2: you know how your job ends. When you're in that seat,
32:24
Speaker 2: you know you're going to lose it. Even Dave Dombrowski
32:26
Speaker 2: has been fired multiple times and he will be a
32:28
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame executive. So you can't be afraid. And
32:31
Speaker 2: you know, THEO has always talked about the advice his
32:33
Speaker 2: father gave him when he got the job at age
32:35
Speaker 2: twenty eight was to be bold, and that is always
32:37
Speaker 2: something that's always stuck with me. It doesn't mean to
32:41
Speaker 2: be reckless. It means to be unafraid to do what
32:45
Speaker 2: you think is best for the organization and not to
32:48
Speaker 2: care about how what risk you put yourself into. You're
32:50
Speaker 2: always trying to do what's best for the organization, and
32:52
Speaker 2: sometimes you got to make some tough decisions.
32:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think with Craig, you know, I'll give
32:57
Speaker 1: him a lot of props because you know, he came
33:00
Speaker 1: to run the show in Boston after being you know,
33:04
Speaker 1: when people think back prior to that him coming back
33:07
Speaker 1: to Boston. You know, they had good memories of him,
33:09
Speaker 1: you know, helping win the World Series in twenty thirteen,
33:12
Speaker 1: and you know, people were like, oh, cool Craig. You know,
33:14
Speaker 1: he's run the show now, and but then you have
33:17
Speaker 1: the pressure cooker side of things, and you know, I
33:19
Speaker 1: give him a lot of props to coming back into
33:22
Speaker 1: this fire, I would say, And uh, you know, and
33:26
Speaker 1: I'd say overall, had a pretty good off season and
33:29
Speaker 1: I think THEO definitely helped there. But one more question
33:33
Speaker 1: before we wrap things up here. You know, based off
33:36
Speaker 1: kind of what you've seen this past offseason, you know,
33:39
Speaker 1: getting the Bregban deal done, making the big Crochet trade,
33:43
Speaker 1: you know, and also along with kind of seeing what's
33:45
Speaker 1: happening so far in spring training, you know, kind of
33:48
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on the Red Sox moving forward?
33:51
Speaker 1: Would you say they're in a much better place now,
33:55
Speaker 1: you know kind of where you're where are you at
33:57
Speaker 1: now with the Red Sox?
33:58
Speaker 2: I do think they're in a much better I think
34:00
Speaker 2: the challenge for them, I think they should compete for
34:02
Speaker 2: a playoff spot. You know, can they win the division?
34:06
Speaker 2: That's gonna be tough, but Baltimore and New York are tough,
34:09
Speaker 2: although Baltimore hasn't really added a whole lot this offseason,
34:12
Speaker 2: and the Yankees obviously Los Soto but added some other pieces.
34:16
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be tough, but there's no they can
34:18
Speaker 2: compete for the division. I just think, you know, given
34:20
Speaker 2: the playoff structure and how it's changed over the last
34:22
Speaker 2: few years, they have a good shot to make the postseason.
34:25
Speaker 2: I expect them to be in it all year. Long term,
34:28
Speaker 2: the challenge for them will be, you know, on the
34:30
Speaker 2: one hand, you know, long term deals are risky, but
34:34
Speaker 2: when you have some short term situations, like you know,
34:37
Speaker 2: Crochet is only a couple of years. Bregman could opt
34:39
Speaker 2: out after if he has a good year. Now you're
34:42
Speaker 2: looking at, you know, potential roster churn, and that may
34:46
Speaker 2: be fine for the Bregman situation because of someone like
34:49
Speaker 2: Campbell ready to be an everyday guy at that point perhaps,
34:53
Speaker 2: but maybe a little tougher with some other guys. So
34:56
Speaker 2: that can be tough, like kind of rebuilding your team
34:58
Speaker 2: every year can be tricky, but you you know, it
35:00
Speaker 2: gives them a lot of flexibility. So there's pros and cons,
35:02
Speaker 2: there's trade offs there. But I think they're in a
35:04
Speaker 2: good spot. They obviously still have three really good young
35:07
Speaker 2: prospects that are getting closer to being ready. I assume
35:11
Speaker 2: Roman Anthony will be probably getting significant bats by the
35:15
Speaker 2: end of the season. He should be on that path
35:18
Speaker 2: if they need it, and then you know, a couple
35:21
Speaker 2: other guys, obviously Campbell and Mayor there's they're in a
35:24
Speaker 2: good spot. I think they're in a very good spot
35:26
Speaker 2: going forward. And they haven't spent all their dollars long term,
35:30
Speaker 2: so they still have financial flexibility.
35:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is definitely a good thing, you know, I
35:34
Speaker 1: you know, the goal from you know what I've seen,
35:37
Speaker 1: you know and have heard, you know, people in the
35:39
Speaker 1: front office says they want to be like the Dodgers.
35:42
Speaker 1: Well that's that might be a hard goal at this
35:44
Speaker 1: point because they're just doing so many good things. But yeah,
35:47
Speaker 1: I agree, I think they're definitely in a good spot
35:50
Speaker 1: moving forward. Hopefully there's no guerrilla suits or anything moving
35:54
Speaker 1: forward that'd be that'd be pretty nice. But zach Man,
35:57
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining today. Has been
36:00
Speaker 1: a great conversation. It's cool to hear the kind of
36:03
Speaker 1: the front office side of things, especially with stuff like this.
36:06
Speaker 1: Let the listeners know at home. What do you got
36:09
Speaker 1: going on? I believe you have a podcast going on now,
36:13
Speaker 1: what can you tell the viewers at home?
36:15
Speaker 2: Well, the podcast has been on an extended hiatus, but
36:17
Speaker 2: I I did start one last year called Deconstructing Champions
36:21
Speaker 2: the Art and Science of Winning, and I am going
36:24
Speaker 2: to get back to that. I'm actually working on kind
36:26
Speaker 2: of a bigger content strategy right now. But you can
36:29
Speaker 2: find me on all social media at at Zach Scott's
36:32
Speaker 2: Sports really across every channel. And you know, other than that,
36:38
Speaker 2: I'm doing a lot of consulting at for my company
36:40
Speaker 2: for RINGS Sports, and I'm also I've been recently started
36:43
Speaker 2: to do a lot of leadership coaching as well. Awesome.
36:46
Speaker 1: Well, hey man, appreciate you coming on and let's have
36:49
Speaker 1: some fun this season. Hopefully we can have some good
36:51
Speaker 1: things to talk.
36:52
Speaker 2: About, and yeah, it should be a fun one.
36:55
Speaker 1: But Zach, thank you so much. Appreciate your time. But everyone,
36:59
Speaker 1: thanks for joining today for this episode. Hit the subscribe
37:01
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37:04
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37:07
Speaker 1: out with the algorithm. But everyone, cover yourself a good
37:09
Speaker 1: rest of your day and I'll talk to you next time.