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How To Raise a Strong-willed, Spicy Child · Raising Daughters

0:14
Speaker 1: Hey, friends, welcome back to Raising Daughters. Have a brand
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Speaker 1: new podcast for you today and a very interesting topic
0:22
Speaker 1: and author to talk about the topic. Because today we're
0:25
Speaker 1: going to talk about what this author calls spicy children.
0:30
Speaker 1: And I think it's important because a lot of us
0:32
Speaker 1: have kids who are tough, and there's all kinds of
0:34
Speaker 1: words to describe spicy kids. We'll talk about that in
0:37
Speaker 1: our discussion. But I invite Mary van geffen on and
0:41
Speaker 1: she's the author of a new book called Parenting a
0:43
Speaker 1: Spicy One, helping you keep your cool and cultivate connection
0:47
Speaker 1: with your strong willed child. So, Mary, thank you so
0:51
Speaker 1: much for being on the show.
0:53
Speaker 2: Oh I'm so excited to be here.
0:55
Speaker 1: When did your book come out, by the.
0:57
Speaker 2: Way, February tenth.
0:59
Speaker 1: Oh it's coming out. Oh in a couple of weeks.
1:02
Speaker 1: Oh good. So this is so this is a special
1:05
Speaker 1: privilege to get.
1:05
Speaker 2: This before the press is exclusive.
1:10
Speaker 1: So you've been a parent educator since twenty eleven? Do
1:15
Speaker 1: you one on one coaching with people, coaching support calls,
1:19
Speaker 1: parenting classes, presentations and all this kind of started. It
1:24
Speaker 1: sounds like after after you gave birth to a spicy daughter.
1:27
Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
1:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, My expertise came out of my complete lack of skill.
1:35
Speaker 2: I was in out of my I was out of
1:39
Speaker 2: my depths when my daughter hit about two and a
1:42
Speaker 2: half and or three, and I we began to kind
1:46
Speaker 2: of spiral into just uh, some violence on my part
1:53
Speaker 2: and apologies, let me turn that off some. I just
1:59
Speaker 2: became more and more not knowing how to handle her
2:08
Speaker 2: just brazenness, and I was thinking that the definition of
2:15
Speaker 2: a good mom was a well behaved child, and I
2:17
Speaker 2: couldn't make that happen. And then a sibling came along,
2:21
Speaker 2: and it just more and more. I tried to get
2:25
Speaker 2: her diagnosed with something. I wanted somebody to come observe
2:29
Speaker 2: her at preschool and tell me what a psychopath I
2:32
Speaker 2: was dealing with. And I just felt so overwhelmed and
2:38
Speaker 2: exhausted by the constant power struggles that I thought there
2:42
Speaker 2: was something like diagnostically wrong with her.
2:47
Speaker 1: Wish happens for a lot of parents, right, and a
2:49
Speaker 1: lot of kids end up getting, in my experience, diagnosed
2:52
Speaker 1: with things like oppositional defiant disorder. We call them tough kids.
2:57
Speaker 1: Teachers quote unquote don't like them as much because are tough.
3:00
Speaker 1: They question things, they question authority, they like power, they
3:04
Speaker 1: like control. So a lot of these kids, I think
3:06
Speaker 1: get mislabeled and misdiagnosed and misunderstood.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and a lot of them are neurodivergent. It's kind
3:14
Speaker 2: of a I mean, when you gather ten children together,
3:18
Speaker 2: eight of them aren't going to do exactly what you
3:20
Speaker 2: say when you know they're they might be, they might
3:24
Speaker 2: be silly about it, but they tend to want to
3:26
Speaker 2: go with the pack and go with the flow. And
3:29
Speaker 2: this the spicy one, is like, no, I've got more
3:32
Speaker 2: loyalty to my soul than what the adult agenda is.
3:37
Speaker 2: I have a I have a vision, and generally they're
3:40
Speaker 2: very disappointed by what actually happens because it doesn't match
3:43
Speaker 2: their their expectations, and they can be inflexible and they're
3:48
Speaker 2: really loud. And I am a spicy one. And this
3:52
Speaker 2: has been a beautiful, like self healing journey because as
3:56
Speaker 2: I started my path of education to understand her, I
4:02
Speaker 2: quickly realized a lot of it was about needing to
4:04
Speaker 2: understand myself and my making sense of my own childhood.
4:09
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of you know, forefathers of
4:12
Speaker 2: parent education that would tell us that if you can
4:17
Speaker 2: articulate what it was like to be little, there's so
4:20
Speaker 2: much less chance of passing on any dysfunctional behavior. It's
4:25
Speaker 2: when you can tell your story. And when I first
4:28
Speaker 2: started parenting, I couldn't. I would have told you, ugh,
4:31
Speaker 2: I was a handful. I was I deserved everything I got,
4:34
Speaker 2: and you know I was too much. I was this,
4:36
Speaker 2: I was that, And so it's been a journey to
4:39
Speaker 2: love her. I needed to love myself and really step
4:43
Speaker 2: into who I fully am. And it's really fun once
4:46
Speaker 2: you decide to just be who you are and to
4:48
Speaker 2: like who you are, and it's a lot easier to
4:50
Speaker 2: like your child.
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Speaker 1: We're going to talk a lot about the kids and
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Speaker 1: about how to work with the kids and all that,
4:56
Speaker 1: but first I want to keep talking to if it's okay,
4:59
Speaker 1: just from about us, about the parent's side, because in
5:03
Speaker 1: my training one hundred years ago, I learned about a
5:05
Speaker 1: concept called the vulnerable child syndrome. Selma Freiberg talked about
5:11
Speaker 1: what she was talking about, and they also ghosts in
5:13
Speaker 1: the nursery was another concept, and what that meant was
5:16
Speaker 1: that we bring things to our parenting stories are past,
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Speaker 1: and if we don't make sense of them and process
5:23
Speaker 1: through them. Then those things can end up haunting us
5:26
Speaker 1: in our parenting. That's what a ghost. That's why it
5:28
Speaker 1: was ghosts in the nursery. And I think sometimes these
5:31
Speaker 1: kinds of kids can really push parents buttons and bring
5:34
Speaker 1: up all kinds of things. And if we're not aware
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Speaker 1: of our story, then oftentimes we have a hard time
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Speaker 1: not being angry, losing it and being triggered that would
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Speaker 1: you say, that's accurate?
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Speaker 2: Oh, and there's something gendered here too, in that there's
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Speaker 2: something about a mother daughter relationship and maybe it's just
5:53
Speaker 2: the same sex relationship where there's this tension because here's
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Speaker 2: this kid who looks a lot like you and plays
6:03
Speaker 2: the same role in society, and now they're doing that
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Speaker 2: thing that people have let you know was not acceptable
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Speaker 2: in you, and so you pass it down as it's
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Speaker 2: not acceptable, and it's I'm so thankful for my husband
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Speaker 2: because there were many times during my sort of healing
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Speaker 2: journey where I'd be like, why is she so so much?
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Speaker 2: Why does she have to take down the whole room,
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Speaker 2: And he'd say, she's excited, she's excited, and she gets
6:29
Speaker 2: really her whole body gets excited, and so does yours.
6:32
Speaker 2: And that's why I married you, and he would keep
6:34
Speaker 2: reminding me that the thing he loved about me it
6:38
Speaker 2: makes me teary, is the thing I was witnessing in her. Yeah,
6:42
Speaker 2: And so I'm i gotta go tell that big lug.
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Speaker 2: I'm thankful for him because he doesn't hear it much.
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Speaker 1: When I work with girls, which I do in my
6:50
Speaker 1: camps retreating things, if there's somebody in their life who's
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Speaker 1: triggering them, somebody who gets under their skin, somebody who
6:56
Speaker 1: they react to a lot, one of the things that
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Speaker 1: I have to do is have that person in mind,
7:02
Speaker 1: and then with that person in mind, fill in the
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Speaker 1: blanks what I see in that person that I also
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Speaker 1: see in me is and then fill in the blank.
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Speaker 1: I think the same thing sometimes can hold true for
7:16
Speaker 1: parents when there's like you could have eight kids and
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Speaker 1: there's one of them that just gets under your skin.
7:21
Speaker 1: You know, these kids are can get under our skins
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Speaker 1: because they're just different, and they're loud, and they're tough,
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Speaker 1: and they're you know, they like being in control all
7:27
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. But I think sometimes it's a
7:30
Speaker 1: good exercise that you think about, is there something that
7:32
Speaker 1: that's being triggered inside of me that's them also seeing
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Speaker 1: in my daughter our son.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, in that exercise that sounds so neat. Are they
7:41
Speaker 2: naming something they appreciate that lives in both of them,
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Speaker 2: or are they naming that thing that uh and then
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Speaker 2: admitting that they also have it.
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Speaker 1: It's usually the art. It's like like you know, like
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Speaker 1: you like with these kids, it might be I have
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Speaker 1: a problem with always wanting to be in control or
8:00
Speaker 1: or that kind of thing. Right, I have a hard
8:01
Speaker 1: time with my anger when I see this kid mirroring
8:04
Speaker 1: the same kinds of behaviors. Instead of me looking at
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Speaker 1: me and saying, wow, I need to work on that,
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Speaker 1: I say stop it or knock it off.
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Speaker 2: Yes, it feels more controllable when it's when it's in
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Speaker 2: the body of your child, like wait, I can stop
8:18
Speaker 2: this now, whereas you've been on a lifelong journey to
8:20
Speaker 2: stop it. And it reminds me a lot of what
8:22
Speaker 2: Gandhi said, like be the change you want to see,
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Speaker 2: And that smacks moms and dads of spicy ones in
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Speaker 2: the face, because there are a lot of times you
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Speaker 2: can't impact their behavior the way that you want to,
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Speaker 2: So you clean up your own side of the street,
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Speaker 2: and miraculously a lot does shift in the family.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, our middle child, our first son, TJ, was a
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Speaker 1: spicy kid mostly about just really intense and just really
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Speaker 1: He was colicky for months and the only thing that
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Speaker 1: would quiet him when he was two three months of
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Speaker 1: age was I would bundle him up and like really
8:57
Speaker 1: tight and put him in his pumpkin seat, and my
8:59
Speaker 1: wife I would put him on the dryer and turn
9:02
Speaker 1: the dryer on. And the heat and the vibration and
9:05
Speaker 1: the being tight. It's kind of like what kids sometimes
9:08
Speaker 1: will quiet down when you can take them for a
9:09
Speaker 1: car ride. But the dryer was our savior when he
9:12
Speaker 1: was two or three months of age because he just
9:14
Speaker 1: had a hard time regulating.
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Speaker 2: Yes, And you're bringing up such a good point that
9:18
Speaker 2: also a lot of what looks like defiance is actually
9:23
Speaker 2: reaction to over sensation or a lack of sensation. And
9:28
Speaker 2: so that same kid at four can be screaming because
9:33
Speaker 2: other people are talking. There's people over Like the holidays
9:37
Speaker 2: can be really tough for a spicy one because all
9:39
Speaker 2: the rhythms and routines are out the door, right, And
9:43
Speaker 2: if we can look at it as what's happening in
9:45
Speaker 2: their body and what are they needing? Versus, Oh, that
9:49
Speaker 2: behavior has to stop. We can kind of loosen the
9:52
Speaker 2: reins a little bit and think more creatively, like putting
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Speaker 2: them on a dryer. That's so smart.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. So some of these spicy kids are hypercent sort
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Speaker 1: of to the environment, to noise, to stimulation, to environments,
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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and a lot of times they
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Speaker 1: don't when they're young, especially, they don't have the wherewithal
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Speaker 1: the self awareness you had to understand when they're starting
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Speaker 1: to go down that path, and so they just lose it.
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Speaker 1: I see. One of the mistakes I see parents make
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Speaker 1: with kids like that is that they try and talk
10:20
Speaker 1: them through it in those moments, and the kids amiggalas
10:23
Speaker 1: are blaring and their prefronel cortex is shut down, and
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Speaker 1: so they can't reason because that part of their brain
10:30
Speaker 1: is offer until their emotions settled down. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I talk about in the book that it's basically just
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Speaker 2: their mammalian self is scanning you for predator or prey, like,
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Speaker 2: are you part of the problem? And they're in a
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Speaker 2: threat response moment, and so people say, well, what do
10:48
Speaker 2: I do when they're melting down? It's not a lot
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Speaker 2: to do in the moment of the meltdown, there's a
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Speaker 2: bunch we can do beforehand to maybe make it less.
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Speaker 2: So there's stuff we can do after to repair and
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Speaker 2: to you know, just there's so much we can do
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Speaker 2: on either side. But in the middle of the meltdown,
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Speaker 2: when you're defiant and crazed, kid is just lost it.
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Speaker 2: It's really more about what do we cultivate inside ourselves?
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Speaker 2: What energy can we be exuding of a felt sense
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Speaker 2: of safety? And so I often really talk about like
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Speaker 2: what are you I have a whole calm down recipe
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Speaker 2: in the book of like what are you saying to yourself?
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Speaker 2: Like if you're saying this kid's gonna kill me, well,
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Speaker 2: then everything in your face is tensing up and your
11:36
Speaker 2: jaw is tight and maybe your hands are clenched. But
11:38
Speaker 2: if you're instead saying, this is not an emergency, or
11:44
Speaker 2: who is upset here? My child is? They get to
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Speaker 2: be upset. I don't have to be. There's some self talk,
11:49
Speaker 2: but there's also like physical things that you can do
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Speaker 2: with your own body when your child has lost control
11:55
Speaker 2: of theirs.
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Speaker 1: Like what like I assume you're talking about little kids mostly.
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Speaker 2: Oh, even a teenager. When a teenager is like I
12:02
Speaker 2: can't believe you never you never help me with my homework.
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Speaker 2: When you're thinking I help you every night with your homework,
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Speaker 2: and it's about time you didn't need my help. You
12:10
Speaker 2: can take a moment to complete the stress response in
12:14
Speaker 2: your own body, because your body does not know the
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Speaker 2: difference between being chased by a mugger and your daughter
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Speaker 2: rolling her eyes at you like it just can't differentiate.
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Speaker 2: So when you get a wash with stress hormones because
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Speaker 2: you're triggered, you have to move your body because what
12:31
Speaker 2: it wants to do is run from a predator. And
12:34
Speaker 2: when we don't, when we just sit there and let
12:37
Speaker 2: the ebb and then the recession of those chemicals go,
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Speaker 2: and we don't do anything, we feel that helplessness creates
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Speaker 2: more stress than our body. So get down and do it.
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Speaker 2: I'm child's pose. Who cares that it looks weird as heck?
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Speaker 2: And hum while you're doing it, or do a crazy
12:54
Speaker 2: downward dog, or yell out peanut butter fudge nuggets. You know,
13:00
Speaker 2: it's not a bad word, but it's something because that's
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Speaker 2: why people yell is that it feels so good to
13:05
Speaker 2: complete the stress cycle in a way that expels energy
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Speaker 2: out of your cavern of your body, and you know tingles,
13:13
Speaker 2: your vegus nerve, all that stuff, and so don't just
13:17
Speaker 2: sit there do something, but do something for your own body.
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Speaker 2: And then there's also all kinds of things we can
13:23
Speaker 2: do with breathing. A lot of times people say breathe, breathe,
13:26
Speaker 2: take a breath. Well, actually exhale for as long as
13:30
Speaker 2: you can, because that is what signals to your body
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Speaker 2: that you're safe and calm. Inhales can feel a little
13:35
Speaker 2: bit activating, so do a lot of short inhales, long exhales,
13:40
Speaker 2: so you're also get a chance to sense what you
13:43
Speaker 2: feel in your body. So I talk about sensing, breathing, moving,
13:47
Speaker 2: and thinking are the four things you can be doing
13:51
Speaker 2: while your kid is losing their marbles, so that you
13:54
Speaker 2: can be the calmest person in the room and they
13:57
Speaker 2: can be picking up your heartbeat and noticing that your
14:01
Speaker 2: face is neutral and all the things that will help
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Speaker 2: them come back down to their best self.
14:07
Speaker 1: We're talking with Mary van Geffen. She's the author of
14:10
Speaker 1: a book that's coming out in a few weeks called
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Speaker 1: Parenting a Spicy One, helping you keep your cool and
14:15
Speaker 1: cultivate connection with your strong willed child. I also think
14:20
Speaker 1: that once you have calmed down, tell me if this
14:23
Speaker 1: is true. I think it's also important that the fourth
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Speaker 1: thing in your line of a minute ago was was
14:29
Speaker 1: to think. I think what a lot of times what
14:32
Speaker 1: parents need to do is once there come, is to
14:35
Speaker 1: say to myself, so I wonder what my child needs
14:37
Speaker 1: in this moment, because it can be different things, right.
14:40
Speaker 1: I remember one time when our son was three or
14:43
Speaker 1: something a little he came down for breakfast and we
14:47
Speaker 1: poured him a bowl of cereal, poured the milk in,
14:49
Speaker 1: and you know, put the bowl in from and he
14:51
Speaker 1: started grunting. He took the bowl and he kind of
14:53
Speaker 1: pushed it into the middle of the table and he
14:55
Speaker 1: was having a little and we're like, you know, first
14:57
Speaker 1: reaction was what the beep? But then we really, oh,
15:01
Speaker 1: he wants to do it himself, and so do it.
15:04
Speaker 1: And so he we said, okay. So he pushed the
15:08
Speaker 1: chair over to the counter, climbed up, got a bowl down,
15:11
Speaker 1: climbed down, pushed the chair back over, he poured his cereal.
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Speaker 1: We were smart enough to start buying those smaller things
15:18
Speaker 1: of milk. He poured his milk, and he sat down
15:21
Speaker 1: and was happy as a clam So instead of fighting
15:24
Speaker 1: those kids, sometimes you needed to figure out what do
15:27
Speaker 1: they need? What are they saying to me with their
15:29
Speaker 1: behavior in this moment, and then maybe I can do
15:31
Speaker 1: something as simple as that, and then their emotions dissipate.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the I do it, And this kid is pretty strong,
15:41
Speaker 2: and we can we can try to be sad about
15:45
Speaker 2: that and rebel against it and got but like, this
15:49
Speaker 2: is a kid who when they are upset, a hug
15:52
Speaker 2: doesn't do it their their need for physical affection will
15:56
Speaker 2: come later, probably when they're in a better space. They
16:00
Speaker 2: really want to have power, and I like to think
16:03
Speaker 2: of that as like they want to have impact on
16:05
Speaker 2: the world, because I feel that way. I need to
16:09
Speaker 2: know that I'm having some kind of influence. And I
16:12
Speaker 2: love a conversation where I leave it and somebody knows
16:15
Speaker 2: something they didn't know. I'm always trying to tell people
16:17
Speaker 2: something new or I love as a coach watching the
16:20
Speaker 2: light come on when they realize something of their own
16:24
Speaker 2: intuition and knowing that I had a hand in that.
16:27
Speaker 2: So this is just the personality and how do we
16:29
Speaker 2: want to work with that? And a strong willed child
16:31
Speaker 2: really needs you to leverage their leadership abilities and to
16:36
Speaker 2: involve them in the planning. Is that efficient? No, there's
16:41
Speaker 2: nothing efficient about parenting well when you have a strong
16:45
Speaker 2: willed child, a fierce, intense, loud, opinionated, inflexible, persistent kid.
16:52
Speaker 2: But it is effective to say, like, okay, so we're
16:55
Speaker 2: heading to target, and what is our rule about buying
16:58
Speaker 2: things at Target? I don't know. Our rule is that
17:03
Speaker 2: it only fits on the list. So you might see
17:05
Speaker 2: a doll and really want that doll. Yeah, I want
17:08
Speaker 2: a doll. I know you want a doll. Are we
17:10
Speaker 2: going to get a doll? Like? You're having all this
17:12
Speaker 2: pre conversation so you can get this kid's brain on
17:16
Speaker 2: board with the program, even though they're probably going to
17:18
Speaker 2: freak out anyway. And then it's about give them the
17:21
Speaker 2: dignity of their process, but hold your limit. And I
17:24
Speaker 2: think people get confused with my message and think it's permissive.
17:27
Speaker 2: It's not permissive, but it is much more collaborative than
17:31
Speaker 2: any book I've seen before on strong willed kids.
17:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw a girl in my office a long
17:39
Speaker 1: time ago and they brought her in. She was about age,
17:43
Speaker 1: I think, and she was having huge meltdowns at home,
17:47
Speaker 1: disrupting the family. She was a spicy girl, and so
17:52
Speaker 1: I talked to the parents with her, and I had
17:53
Speaker 1: the parents leave so I could talk to her by herself.
17:56
Speaker 1: And she was fine, and we were having this nice conversation,
17:59
Speaker 1: and I know she.
18:00
Speaker 2: Had so good with adults. Right.
18:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, she had one of those little girl scout sashes
18:04
Speaker 1: or a brownie sash thing on. So I said, oh,
18:07
Speaker 1: are you a girl scout? She said yeah. I said,
18:09
Speaker 1: you know, just last night one of the girls in
18:11
Speaker 1: our neighborhood came by to give us our cookies and
18:14
Speaker 1: she was saying how she had sold the most boxes
18:16
Speaker 1: in her troops. She sold like fifty five boxes. And
18:19
Speaker 1: this girl, I'll never forget this, look me right in
18:22
Speaker 1: the eye and she said, I sold the most boxes
18:25
Speaker 1: in my troop too. I sold one hundred and fifty.
18:28
Speaker 1: And then she stopped and looked me at she said,
18:30
Speaker 1: I love sales, I swear to God. But since you
18:36
Speaker 1: when we know that about kids, right, we can start
18:39
Speaker 1: doing things preemptively. Like you said, there's nothing doing in
18:41
Speaker 1: that moment. That may be true, but there's a lot
18:43
Speaker 1: of things we can do to preempt because we start
18:46
Speaker 1: to allow them to have more, say so more control
18:48
Speaker 1: more power up front so that they don't need to
18:51
Speaker 1: butt hands with us to feel that sense of control
18:54
Speaker 1: and power.
18:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for some of us, there's going to be
18:58
Speaker 2: a grieving process to get on board with that, because
19:01
Speaker 2: I know I had a vision of what I thought
19:03
Speaker 2: motherhood was going to look like, and I wanted to
19:05
Speaker 2: wear like matching outfits and my mini me and she
19:09
Speaker 2: was like, no, I don't, I don't, I'll decide what
19:11
Speaker 2: I'm going to wear, right. And so I'm thankful I
19:15
Speaker 2: have more than one kid because I know it was
19:18
Speaker 2: her and her brilliance and her fierceness wasn't necessarily the
19:22
Speaker 2: parenting right. And I think that's amazing when you have
19:26
Speaker 2: multiple kids and you see like some of this is
19:28
Speaker 2: just going to happen. You know, I can, I can
19:31
Speaker 2: put some guardrails in. But I guess the one thing
19:34
Speaker 2: I want to say is, because this is raising daughters,
19:36
Speaker 2: is it's really important that we don't dim that spark
19:40
Speaker 2: of a spicy one girl. The world is going to
19:46
Speaker 2: send a lot of messages that you need to be
19:48
Speaker 2: nice and you need to take care of everybody else's needs.
19:52
Speaker 2: And I have so many people who follow me who say, oh,
19:57
Speaker 2: I don't have any kids. I don't care about the parent.
20:00
Speaker 2: I am a spicy one and I wasn't allowed to
20:04
Speaker 2: be as a little person. And when a little girl
20:08
Speaker 2: is not comfortable saying no, I won't, I don't want that,
20:13
Speaker 2: awful things happen. I mean sexual assault happens, right, So
20:17
Speaker 2: I think it's really important to check our internal posture
20:22
Speaker 2: towards a strong willed girl and to check that we
20:28
Speaker 2: all have some programming that she should actually be making
20:31
Speaker 2: nice and worried more about what other people think. And
20:34
Speaker 2: it's pretty amazing when they don't.
20:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree totally. And I think also trusting that
20:40
Speaker 1: they're more confident than maybe their age. I'm seeing a grow.
20:45
Speaker 1: She's in early high school and she's she's being homeschooled
20:49
Speaker 1: this year, online school, I guess because for different reasons.
20:53
Speaker 1: She's in eighth grade. And one thing she told me,
20:56
Speaker 1: which is fascinating, she said she is applying to some
20:59
Speaker 1: high school and her parents wanted to go to this
21:01
Speaker 1: private high school, which is automatically is making her resist.
21:04
Speaker 1: But she said she was at her grandma's house and
21:06
Speaker 1: her grandma said, you should you should get on that
21:08
Speaker 1: debate team, and you should do this other thing because
21:10
Speaker 1: that'll look good on your transcript. And this girl said,
21:13
Speaker 1: I used to be interested in that, but I totally
21:16
Speaker 1: lost all my interests because because they're making me, because
21:20
Speaker 1: it was their agenda and their thing. And so I
21:23
Speaker 1: mean she needs to learn to not give up herself
21:25
Speaker 1: just to show people you can't make me, because then
21:27
Speaker 1: that's not good for either. But I get her spirit,
21:30
Speaker 1: which is saying to trust I know what's right for
21:33
Speaker 1: me sometimes right.
21:34
Speaker 2: There is a middle ground, isn't there? But they do
21:37
Speaker 2: have a pervasive demand for autonomy, which is the renaming
21:41
Speaker 2: of PDA, and we need to know that about them,
21:47
Speaker 2: and so we don't say you should we check our wording.
21:51
Speaker 2: We can use declarative language rather than what's that it's
21:57
Speaker 2: in the book. But there's a type of grammar that
22:00
Speaker 2: tells people what they have to do. Mhm, And I
22:04
Speaker 2: can't remember what that's called.
22:05
Speaker 1: Do you know?
22:06
Speaker 2: Do you remember back in grammar school? No?
22:08
Speaker 1: But yeah, I too. Girls, you can shift out of it.
22:11
Speaker 1: I have to to, Uh, I get to or I
22:14
Speaker 1: want to. I choose to, because if it's I have to,
22:17
Speaker 1: then there's this built in thing that comes up with
22:20
Speaker 1: them that says, yeah, I don't like being told what
22:23
Speaker 1: to do, and if it's.
22:24
Speaker 2: My choice, yes, but as the parent or the grandmother,
22:29
Speaker 2: they also need to switch their language to be like, wow,
22:31
Speaker 2: I could see you on the debate team. You would
22:35
Speaker 2: kill it. I wonder if that will ever be interesting
22:37
Speaker 2: to you. And then you move on. You drop a
22:40
Speaker 2: little bit of of uh inspiration in their tank, but
22:44
Speaker 2: you cannot take credit for it else they think it's
22:47
Speaker 2: like there's a contrarianism in this child. And I also
22:52
Speaker 2: say there's like a George Costanza, you know from Seinfeld,
22:54
Speaker 2: where it's like they see what's not yet right, and
22:59
Speaker 2: that that can be a frustrating thing to be in
23:01
Speaker 2: relationship with. I mean, you can throw this amazing birthday
23:05
Speaker 2: party for the spicy one, and they can be like,
23:07
Speaker 2: I thought we were going to have a pony, Well,
23:09
Speaker 2: I put up pictures of horses because we're not, like,
23:12
Speaker 2: you know, a billionaire. But so they're going to notice
23:14
Speaker 2: the thing that's not enough, and you get to train
23:16
Speaker 2: them and say, like I told one client, okay, the
23:19
Speaker 2: birthday's coming up. I see you expelling so much energy
23:23
Speaker 2: and there's this this this thing that happens over and
23:27
Speaker 2: over again where you put all this effort into it,
23:29
Speaker 2: and then the child is disappointed and then you kind
23:32
Speaker 2: of go into victim mode. So instead train her say,
23:35
Speaker 2: I know that when this party happens, there's going to
23:38
Speaker 2: be things that don't meet your expectations, and there's going
23:40
Speaker 2: to be awesome stuff. I need you to start with
23:43
Speaker 2: what you loved about the party, because I put a
23:46
Speaker 2: lot of work into it. Can you do that? Would
23:48
Speaker 2: that be okay if you started with what you loved
23:49
Speaker 2: about it, and then you can tell me what you
23:51
Speaker 2: didn't and it's just you're teaching them how to be
23:53
Speaker 2: in relationship.
23:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. You're talk in the book about the
23:59
Speaker 1: importance of ref framing timeouts. Can you talk about that
24:01
Speaker 1: just for a moment, because I think a lot of
24:03
Speaker 1: parents get stuck on that.
24:06
Speaker 2: I mean, timeouts for me are and any kind of
24:10
Speaker 2: punishment is sort of the nuclear version of parenting. To me,
24:15
Speaker 2: it's a sign of somebody who is the parent is
24:18
Speaker 2: out of options and out of creativity, and so they're
24:21
Speaker 2: not really a part of what I teach. I would
24:23
Speaker 2: teach a lot of with a strong willed child, setting
24:29
Speaker 2: expectations is huge, and then affirmation of just even if
24:33
Speaker 2: it's a sprout of the behavior that you want. Seeing
24:37
Speaker 2: it and naming it, then it blooms. So if you're
24:40
Speaker 2: trying to get your kid to acknowledge people when they
24:44
Speaker 2: come in the house, and rather than put them in
24:47
Speaker 2: a timeout for not doing it, I mean, we don't
24:51
Speaker 2: put people in a timeout when they're learning how to drive, right, like,
24:54
Speaker 2: oh no, you didn't put your blinker on timeout, or
24:58
Speaker 2: like it's just such an anti equated way of actually
25:01
Speaker 2: helping someone learn a new skill or behavior. So what
25:04
Speaker 2: I would say is you set the expectations of what
25:07
Speaker 2: you need, you do it alongside them, you until they
25:11
Speaker 2: get some kind of competency, and then you continue to
25:15
Speaker 2: notice them doing it, because if they're neurodivergent and a
25:19
Speaker 2: little bit dopamine deficient, we get really good at something
25:22
Speaker 2: and then it's like, I have no impetus internally to
25:25
Speaker 2: do this anymore. So name like, wow, I saw you
25:28
Speaker 2: empty that it only took you like three minutes. That
25:31
Speaker 2: was incredible. Or I noticed you you smiled at Grandma
25:35
Speaker 2: when she walked in. I appreciate how you make people
25:37
Speaker 2: feel welcome, like you're I want you to eke out
25:41
Speaker 2: the positive out of the smallest effort they do, which
25:44
Speaker 2: then makes it happen more.
25:48
Speaker 1: I guess for me, I also time out. I don't
25:52
Speaker 1: even like the word, but it's more like sometimes kids
25:54
Speaker 1: need to break to self quiet to regulate. It's not
25:58
Speaker 1: a punishment. It's not out of anger set of Oh
26:01
Speaker 1: right now, you don't you you haven't had the awareness
26:03
Speaker 1: yet to learn to kind of pull away yourself before
26:06
Speaker 1: you get to the point where you're you know, you're
26:09
Speaker 1: on you know, ten out of ten. So a time
26:12
Speaker 1: I was just we can learn, we can you can
26:14
Speaker 1: learn some ways of quieting yourself down. Yeah.
26:17
Speaker 2: One of the things I offer is the controlled destruction,
26:21
Speaker 2: and that is finding something that the two of you
26:24
Speaker 2: can destroy together that helps them get in touch with
26:28
Speaker 2: what their body needs, like as you're as they're whining,
26:32
Speaker 2: you know, you know those afternoons where you can tell
26:34
Speaker 2: we are headed towards Yeah, some really off track behavior.
26:38
Speaker 2: You can get in front of that with things like
26:40
Speaker 2: you know what, I think your body might need to
26:42
Speaker 2: throw ice at the wall, the brick wall outside, Let's
26:45
Speaker 2: go do it. And that fierceness and that feeling of
26:48
Speaker 2: completing the stress cycle. That's a great timeout, and you
26:52
Speaker 2: do it together, and or ripping up an egg carton
26:56
Speaker 2: or throwing any kind of big, large movement that help
27:02
Speaker 2: you get in touch with your body, pushing pushing a
27:06
Speaker 2: cool or filled with something, and so maybe a challenge
27:09
Speaker 2: you give them those things are important. And then having
27:12
Speaker 2: like a space that is theirs that's soft when they
27:16
Speaker 2: have sort of lost all good sense, you know, whether
27:20
Speaker 2: it's like a soft bean bag or someplace, and things
27:23
Speaker 2: that are you are allowed to throw, Like one mother
27:27
Speaker 2: has a bunch of bald up socks that are in
27:30
Speaker 2: a thing, and you can throw those when you're angry.
27:33
Speaker 2: As we're like all biding time as this kid's prefrontal
27:37
Speaker 2: cortex matures. And sometimes the behavior that we allow in
27:41
Speaker 2: our house is going to be very different than what
27:42
Speaker 2: we allow out in the world. And a kid gets
27:44
Speaker 2: to understand that different scenarios allow for different behaviors, which
27:49
Speaker 2: is why there's so much full restraint collapse when they
27:52
Speaker 2: come home, because you know, I've been holding it together
27:56
Speaker 2: and acting quote unquote normal, and now here's the worst
28:00
Speaker 2: to be mom. That's pretty normal.
28:03
Speaker 1: Or if you could teach them to throw those socks
28:04
Speaker 1: into their soft drawer, killed twoth birds of one stone,
28:09
Speaker 1: you talk. You also talk a lot about the importance
28:13
Speaker 1: of parents having a supportive community because these kids are tough.
28:17
Speaker 1: We can talk all day long, but sometimes they're unpredictable
28:22
Speaker 1: and you can do the best you can, but that
28:24
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can. You know, they're kids, and so
28:27
Speaker 1: I think it's it helps sometimes. Otherwise I think parents
28:29
Speaker 1: are in their heads and they blame themselves blah blah blah.
28:32
Speaker 1: So talk about that for a moment. The importance of
28:34
Speaker 1: having a community of people.
28:36
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so important to have somebody else who likes
28:40
Speaker 2: this kid, first off, because there are going to be
28:42
Speaker 2: a lot of times where you don't, because their behavior
28:45
Speaker 2: is challenging and their outsized reactions to every slight environment,
28:51
Speaker 2: every clothing change, every smell, every crowd is just going
28:55
Speaker 2: to infuriate you sometimes. And to have somebody else in
28:59
Speaker 2: your life who's like, oh, no, I just love them.
29:02
Speaker 2: They can do no wrong. Some of us are lucky
29:04
Speaker 2: enough to have a grandparent that does that, but a
29:06
Speaker 2: lot of us with spicy ones have a grandparent who
29:08
Speaker 2: brings a lot of judgment, like, well, have you ever
29:11
Speaker 2: said no? Or maybe a little pop on the butt
29:14
Speaker 2: would help, And so that's really a dry, Well, don't
29:17
Speaker 2: go there if that's the case. But even like I
29:19
Speaker 2: went to a good friend of mine, good Old Beth,
29:23
Speaker 2: when my daughter was probably eight, and said, I don't
29:27
Speaker 2: have a sister and I need somebody else that this
29:30
Speaker 2: kid can confide in, can stay connected to when there's
29:34
Speaker 2: communication breakdowns with us, because that's gonna happen, that's just
29:38
Speaker 2: part of life. And I paid for them to go
29:41
Speaker 2: have a lunch once a month, and now that is
29:45
Speaker 2: like one of her aunts. And when she comes home
29:47
Speaker 2: from college, she's like, are we gonna get Beth with
29:49
Speaker 2: us too? And so you might have to be really
29:52
Speaker 2: direct in creating that community. Another way that community helps
29:57
Speaker 2: is I've had more than one person say I don't
29:59
Speaker 2: even know if if I need the book. Just you
30:01
Speaker 2: calling them spicy ones has shifted something inside me. Instead
30:06
Speaker 2: of this explosive kid or this problem child, I'm like, no,
30:10
Speaker 2: I just have a spicy one, where other people might
30:13
Speaker 2: have like a vanilla baby. And that reframe and knowing
30:17
Speaker 2: there's other people out there and that other people have
30:21
Speaker 2: kids that have violent tantrums, that doesn't there's nothing inherently
30:26
Speaker 2: twisted or wrong, and so having some other people but
30:29
Speaker 2: I can't tell you that they're going to be at
30:31
Speaker 2: the park because I think this is like a fifteen
30:34
Speaker 2: to twenty percent of the population, just like how high
30:37
Speaker 2: sensitivity comes in that. So finding those people and then
30:41
Speaker 2: a lot of times the people you already have, you're
30:43
Speaker 2: going to have to have some serious boundaries. This kid
30:46
Speaker 2: is going to teach you, against your will, how to
30:50
Speaker 2: stand up and advocate and say, you know what, thank you, Grandpa,
30:53
Speaker 2: We've got it. I can tell that her loudness is irritating.
30:59
Speaker 2: I'm going to her, but I don't need you to
31:01
Speaker 2: parent her, thank you very much. In fact, I want
31:04
Speaker 2: you to have a great relationship with her and spoil her.
31:07
Speaker 2: So when there's an issue, I need you to tell
31:09
Speaker 2: me and do not do not discipline her. And it's
31:12
Speaker 2: gonna feel really scary to do that, to set boundaries
31:15
Speaker 2: with the people who are your elders, but you may
31:17
Speaker 2: have to do it with this kid.
31:20
Speaker 1: There's something you said before, but I think even vanilla
31:24
Speaker 1: kids have their challenges. They may not be as much
31:28
Speaker 1: in your face with the challenges, but the every kid,
31:31
Speaker 1: no matter what their temperament, there's there's lots of pazzors.
31:35
Speaker 1: There's also some things that there's lessons that are going
31:37
Speaker 1: to need to learn.
31:38
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah. And there's a whole chapter in the
31:41
Speaker 2: book called Protecting the mild Child, because a lot of
31:45
Speaker 2: times the less demonstrative kid kind of falls through the cracks.
31:53
Speaker 2: And there's something called the glass child syndrome where a
31:56
Speaker 2: parent sort of looks right past them at the well,
31:58
Speaker 2: I've got to deal with the spice one, the spicy
32:00
Speaker 2: one is angry again, or the spicy one's iep is
32:03
Speaker 2: tomorrow or whatever it is. And so I interviewed a
32:08
Speaker 2: lot of adult mild childs to ask what it was
32:11
Speaker 2: like to grow up in a family of a spicy one.
32:14
Speaker 2: It was kind of heartbreaking. But there's so much we
32:17
Speaker 2: can do. There's so many conversations we can initiate with
32:20
Speaker 2: that more easygoing child to say, you're allowed to be messy.
32:26
Speaker 2: I want to know what's on your mind. I want
32:28
Speaker 2: to spend time with just you where you we don't
32:31
Speaker 2: have to manage the sibling. Also, you didn't cause what's
32:34
Speaker 2: going on with the sibling, and you don't have to
32:36
Speaker 2: fix it. And most importantly, we're okay. The parents are okay.
32:41
Speaker 2: I know it looks like that. That was a lot
32:42
Speaker 2: what you just witnessed sibling. But we've got it. We're
32:46
Speaker 2: on top of it, because that mild child or vanilla baby,
32:51
Speaker 2: whatever we're calling it, gets their sense of self from
32:55
Speaker 2: the parent, not their sibling, if we are proactive about it.
33:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so I think those kids need to know
33:03
Speaker 1: that your needs are important too. I know it looks
33:06
Speaker 1: like we're on edge and all that all the time,
33:09
Speaker 1: but if you come up to say I need some
33:12
Speaker 1: time too, we're not going to topple over. We can
33:14
Speaker 1: handle it. Yeah, and we want to handle it.
33:16
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they don't think is true, right, I
33:19
Speaker 2: mean they're making kids. You know, when parents get divorced,
33:22
Speaker 2: a lot of times the kids think, oh, I cause
33:24
Speaker 2: that right. They come up with all kinds of stories
33:27
Speaker 2: about how they're in the center of whatever happened, and
33:31
Speaker 2: so assume that they do think you don't have time
33:34
Speaker 2: and you're too beleaguered, and so they're keeping things in
33:38
Speaker 2: and you may have to. Like one thing you can
33:40
Speaker 2: do is is decide to go pick them up during
33:43
Speaker 2: lunch and just bring McDonald's and sit in the car
33:47
Speaker 2: during lunchtime just with them, just shooting the whatever. And
33:53
Speaker 2: there's ways or have one one family that had a
33:56
Speaker 2: bunch of different kids would have on Tuesdays, this one
33:58
Speaker 2: stays up late and the rest go to sleep, and
34:01
Speaker 2: on Thursday, this Wednesdays up late. Just making sure that
34:04
Speaker 2: there is some one on one time because that's where
34:06
Speaker 2: nmacy really happens. I mean, if you think about your
34:09
Speaker 2: good friends, when you have groups of friends, there's somewhere
34:13
Speaker 2: like I would never be alone with that one person.
34:15
Speaker 2: We wouldn't go do something, because that's when you create
34:18
Speaker 2: the real friendship. It's just the one on one time.
34:21
Speaker 1: We are talking with Mary van Geffen, who has a
34:24
Speaker 1: new book coming out in a couple of weeks called
34:26
Speaker 1: Parenting a Spicy One, helping you keep your cool and
34:29
Speaker 1: cultivate connection with your strong willed child. I want to
34:33
Speaker 1: go back to one thing before we end today. My
34:35
Speaker 1: wife and I used to teach a six week parenting
34:38
Speaker 1: class and it was it was awesome and I think
34:44
Speaker 1: besides the information that people got, they also had chance
34:46
Speaker 1: in a group of I think we used to take
34:48
Speaker 1: maybe a maximum fifteen or twenty parents and a lot
34:51
Speaker 1: of couples came. But being in a room where they
34:55
Speaker 1: could talk about their tough kids and what they're going
34:57
Speaker 1: through and that you know and and admit that they
35:00
Speaker 1: lost it or whatever. But having the community people saying
35:03
Speaker 1: I do that too, I get it. I understand it
35:06
Speaker 1: was so valuable. Not only was the information valuable, just
35:09
Speaker 1: set sense of or own this together. And you teach
35:12
Speaker 1: parenting classes, so talk about that from me when and
35:14
Speaker 1: also how people can get a hold of your classes.
35:17
Speaker 2: Doctor Tim, Thanks for teeing me up. Yeah. I have
35:19
Speaker 2: the Moms of Spicy Ones Academy, which is all the
35:23
Speaker 2: curriculum I have on demand. But we meet three times
35:27
Speaker 2: a month and there's one one coaching circle that's for
35:30
Speaker 2: parents of kids, one for parents of teens, and one
35:32
Speaker 2: for doing the deep work of inner child and your
35:36
Speaker 2: own triggers. And we're really kind of honing in the
35:39
Speaker 2: mother wound all kinds of things like that. And you
35:41
Speaker 2: can come to all those meetings or none of them.
35:43
Speaker 2: But having a place where you can get on a
35:46
Speaker 2: call and see the faces and get into a breakout
35:50
Speaker 2: room with other people who have a child that sucks
35:52
Speaker 2: all the oxygen out of the room is really important.
35:55
Speaker 2: And so find your community however you can. But I
35:58
Speaker 2: do offer one, and it's it's I always feel such
36:02
Speaker 2: a pep in my step after we get off these calls.
36:05
Speaker 1: You know, it's just to fast forward for people listening
36:09
Speaker 1: who may have a little kid. It's hard to see
36:11
Speaker 1: the forest for the trees that that three year old
36:14
Speaker 1: my son who pushed a cereal bowl across the table
36:17
Speaker 1: and amongst other things and needed a dryer to calm down.
36:21
Speaker 1: If you fast forward. He graduated from college and he
36:24
Speaker 1: did teach for America for two years in the Inner
36:26
Speaker 1: City in Chicago, and he was he decided, you know,
36:30
Speaker 1: I need a break, and so he bought a backpack
36:32
Speaker 1: and a tent and a ukulele and he he went
36:35
Speaker 1: to New Zealand and didn't know anybody, didn't know anybody,
36:38
Speaker 1: and he just he was going for twenty months and
36:41
Speaker 1: he backpacked around, He tiked, He stopped several times to
36:46
Speaker 1: pick fruit in orchards because he ran out of money,
36:50
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. But that's that was his adventurous spirit,
36:53
Speaker 1: saying I wanted, I want to push the limits. I
36:56
Speaker 1: want to do my own thing. I wanted to see
36:58
Speaker 1: the world. And so as say get older, you will
37:00
Speaker 1: start to see I think more of those sorts of
37:03
Speaker 1: things where you go, okay, this is actually a really
37:05
Speaker 1: good thing. But when they're laying on the ground in
37:07
Speaker 1: the middle of target, I think that's why it's hard
37:10
Speaker 1: to see that part.
37:11
Speaker 2: I mean, that's so beautiful to hear. And don't sell
37:14
Speaker 2: yourself short, because there's a lot of unhealed parents who
37:17
Speaker 2: would be in conflict with that, who would be like,
37:20
Speaker 2: what do you mean, that's not the steps that you're
37:22
Speaker 2: supposed to go through. And so your open handedness, because
37:26
Speaker 2: they are not ours, they are not remote controlled beings,
37:30
Speaker 2: and so we need to delight in the spirit and
37:33
Speaker 2: the adventures that they have rather than being that voice
37:36
Speaker 2: of reason. That's not our job anymore. As they get older.
37:40
Speaker 2: I will also share that my little girl, when she
37:44
Speaker 2: learned how to write, the first time I saw her
37:46
Speaker 2: writing anything that wasn't an assignment, I went into a
37:49
Speaker 2: room to clean something up and she had written I
37:51
Speaker 2: hat my mom on the side of her bed. She
37:55
Speaker 2: misspelled hete thank you very much. And now she is
37:59
Speaker 2: twenty two and calls me every other day just to chat,
38:04
Speaker 2: and we are so connected. And she just got back
38:07
Speaker 2: from Barcelona, and she's a world traveler as well. And
38:10
Speaker 2: so yes, that difficult, contentious child becomes a powerhouse entrepreneur
38:17
Speaker 2: CEO breaking the limits. It's amazing, but of course amazing.
38:22
Speaker 2: Adults are very difficult to parent.
38:26
Speaker 1: Especially when they're calling the shots and it's their life
38:29
Speaker 1: and their path. And I can't tell how many people,
38:33
Speaker 1: when our son was traveling, said, aren't you worried about him?
38:35
Speaker 1: Shouldn't he be like you said, shouldn't he be working?
38:37
Speaker 1: Shouldn't he come back and get a job? They would
38:39
Speaker 1: tell him that. They also told us. I imagine a
38:41
Speaker 1: lot of parents who have a spicy child get all
38:44
Speaker 1: kinds of parenting advice about what they're doing wrong, which
38:48
Speaker 1: makes them, i'm sure, feel guilty and then unless they
38:51
Speaker 1: unless they really thought it through.
38:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why I say it puts you
38:55
Speaker 2: on a path of a spiritual journey because you have
38:58
Speaker 2: to figure out, wow, I can't please the crowd anymore
39:02
Speaker 2: with my perfectionism and my people pleasing because I can't
39:05
Speaker 2: get to do what everybody else wants. So you have
39:08
Speaker 2: to start figuring out how do I please myself? What
39:10
Speaker 2: are my values? Well? How do I define a good parent?
39:14
Speaker 2: And it really kind of wakes you up. It was
39:16
Speaker 2: definitely part of my consciousness journey.
39:20
Speaker 1: But parents want to get a hold of you and
39:22
Speaker 1: your classes and the information, all the resources that you offer.
39:25
Speaker 1: What's the best way for them to find you.
39:28
Speaker 2: They can look up Parenting a Spicy One, or they
39:32
Speaker 2: can go to Mary Vangeffen dot com. And again there
39:35
Speaker 2: are all kinds of classes. There's a class on how
39:37
Speaker 2: to get calm, how to stay kind, and want on
39:39
Speaker 2: how to get firm, But all of those are included
39:43
Speaker 2: in the subscription, which is forty seven dollars a month.
39:46
Speaker 2: If you want to hop in and you can cancel
39:49
Speaker 2: any time. That's a great way to meet with me
39:51
Speaker 2: in a group. But the book, of course, is if
39:55
Speaker 2: you're an introvert and you just want to learn on
39:57
Speaker 2: your own. Parenting a Spicy One, a compact guide for
40:00
Speaker 2: raising a deep feeling and wonderfully strong willed kid, is
40:04
Speaker 2: available anywhere books are sold.
40:06
Speaker 1: So those the skills in the book are awesome, and
40:08
Speaker 1: I think they're valuable not just for spicy kids, but
40:12
Speaker 1: for any kids and for any parent. But I think
40:14
Speaker 1: especially for those kids who who draw outside the lines.
40:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, remember those the what was that deodorant? Hang with
40:25
Speaker 2: me a secret? Back in the eighties, they used to
40:27
Speaker 2: say the secret deodorant was strong enough for a man,
40:30
Speaker 2: but made for a woman. This book, this one is
40:34
Speaker 2: these will help you with a spicy one, but they
40:37
Speaker 2: definitely work with a vanilla mild child.
40:40
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for offering all this information today
40:43
Speaker 1: and also in your books and all the things that
40:45
Speaker 1: you do.
40:45
Speaker 2: Know.
40:47
Speaker 1: I'll make sure in my show notes to include all
40:49
Speaker 1: these ways to get a hold of you because a
40:52
Speaker 1: lot of people listen to this podcast when they're walking.
40:54
Speaker 1: It's interesting that I think eighty percent of people hear
40:57
Speaker 1: the podcast on their watch I guess, I guess while
41:01
Speaker 1: they're driving, while they're walking, while they're whatevering. So anyway,
41:06
Speaker 1: so a lot of times they can't write it down,
41:08
Speaker 1: so make I always you know, just they can just
41:10
Speaker 1: go to my website and I'll have show notes with
41:13
Speaker 1: with these links to get a hold of you. So again,
41:17
Speaker 1: thank you so much for stopping by here on raising
41:20
Speaker 1: your daughters, and good luck with your book too.
41:23
Speaker 2: Thank you.
41:26
Speaker 1: So that was a very interesting conversation. I make sure
41:30
Speaker 1: you check out my website at www dot d R
41:34
Speaker 1: Tim Jordan dot com and I'll have a couple of
41:36
Speaker 1: links for you about how to get a hold of
41:38
Speaker 1: Mary ben Geffen and her classes and things. So you'll
41:41
Speaker 1: find it there, and as always, I'll be back here
41:44
Speaker 1: with the brand new topic in a week. And also
41:49
Speaker 1: make sure you check that website. My website for all
41:52
Speaker 1: the information about all the different resources that my wife
41:54
Speaker 1: and I provide for kids and parents. Classes and retreat
42:00
Speaker 1: and we can retreat and summer camps and my books
42:03
Speaker 1: and etcetera. So check that out and hopefully there's something
42:07
Speaker 1: that will be helpful to you at this point in
42:09
Speaker 1: your parenting life. I will be back here in a
42:11
Speaker 1: week with a brand new topic and a brand new podcast.
42:15
Speaker 1: As always, thank you so much for stopping by.