Latest / Under The Fur / Why Burnout in Vet Med Is a Corporate Problem, Not Personal Failure with Sophie

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Why Burnout in Vet Med Is a Corporate Problem, Not Personal Failure with Sophie · Under The Fur

• speaker-0: Welcome to Under the Fur and today we are welcoming my very brave and caring friend Sophie. Sophie's a veterinary nurse coming into the career later in life after various HR and other roles and after the birth of her son, Sophie worked as an out of hours emergency nurse and started to suffer from a decline in mental health and some serious health conditions. Sophie's story is about what she went through and how she's come through the other side to help others and the profession. Thank you so much for coming on, Sophie. I've been wanting to have you on for a while and I think that the thing is with me and you that we always laugh and we joke and we have a great time together and I didn't know how we were going to come down from that and talk to what about what you've been through. speaker-1: Thank you for the invite. Yeah. It's a yeah, it's a tricky one to laugh about, isn't it? But I think I think dark humour is something that follows a lot of people in the profession. So I think it is something that keeps us all going to an extent. Yes. ⁓ so yeah. It's definitely our ⁓ our yeah. speaker-0: It is our coping mechanism. Yeah. And it's certainly got us through a lot of night shifts. So Sophie and I met on a night shift in, think, I don't even know what it was. was a time ago. And ⁓ when you come on night shifts, it's you and a nurse and you think, speaker-1: Around Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ hell's going to go down tonight. I need someone on my side. I need my team. And I knew when I met you, I was like, yes, we've got this. We've got this. And I think I can remember us just being really in the thick of it with animals everywhere, cages full. speaker-1: Pump alarming. ⁓ my god. speaker-0: I'm beeping ⁓ med alarms going off and me and you were like, we got this, we got this. And just like laughing our way through it, snacking our way through it and catching 30 minute naps here and there so we could recharge. ⁓ it was, yes. Yeah. And, ⁓ so let's go back to what did you do before nursing? speaker-1: Not ships are fun. ⁓ so before nursing, I kind of fell into office work ⁓ from ⁓ from being at school. I moved down here from Norfolk, so ⁓ I'm originally a country bumpkin. And ⁓ Me do. ⁓ and yeah, sort of fell into office work. ⁓ ended up working in sort training departments. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, my my last jobs before I before I I sort of quit all of that was ⁓ in ⁓ being a training coordinator for Europe, Middle East and Africa for a global telecoms company. speaker-0: Thank speaker-1: ⁓ so yeah, very different. Very different. And I never knew that. No, it's yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like a whole other life. It's just insane when I think about like what I was doing before. And ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ but but you know, the training side of things I think has kind of helped with kind of being able to train other people and you know, sort of collaborate as a team and kind of meet those targets and and ⁓ yeah, I guess yeah, I guess it it's helped me a lot, especially with speaker-0: It's a whole- speaker-1: ⁓ kind of some of the online stuff and ⁓ you know, sort of talking to management and different people from different countries and all of that. So yeah, it's been it's been really fun. Yeah, it was really fun. But ⁓ but yeah, I got to the point where it's like this there's gotta be more to life than this and I always wanted to work with animals. So yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: And so how then did you go from that to getting into veterinary nursing? speaker-1: So I quit my job. I applied for a I was on yard and groom as like a till I thought, ⁓ well with horses, I really like horses. Yeah. You know, like you do as a child, you know? I really like animals. And ⁓ and so on a horse tongue. Mum canal the horse precisely Top of my list every Christmas, every birthday. Never got one. I was so speaker-0: But now I'm not adult and I also haven't bought myself one. speaker-1: Now I know how expensive they are. 100% very hard work. Yeah. So I ended up flying out to the States and working with a three-day vendor out there, who, funnily enough, grew up about 20 miles from where I did in North Norfolk. And was like, this is insane. ⁓ stayed there for a couple of months, but then decided it wasn't quite for me. So I came back. ⁓ and I did apply to the RSPCA to be an inspector, which in hindsight I'm really glad I didn't get. But ⁓ yeah, I ended up just applying to about speaker-0: Exactly! speaker-1: Hundred and twenty different practices. ⁓ I got three in hundred and twenty. speaker-0: 120 back in the day of emails or was this by paper this speaker-1: This was by paper This was where so I literally downloaded the list of training practices off the RCVS website. I then targeted the ones that were close to where I was currently living, then targeted the ones that were close to where my friend lived so that I could live with him if I needed to. and yeah, 120 practices over the course. ⁓ I got three interviews out of that. speaker-0: Wow speaker-1: ⁓ and ⁓ had one interview, didn't really wasn't really for me. Got had the second interview at Farm Ba Ventury Centre, which was part of Nine Mile at the time, which is now CBS. ⁓ and yeah, they offered me the job before I got back in my car in the car. ⁓ yeah. Like I got the j like th they called me back in. I was literally getting in my car, they're Can you just come in back? I like, ⁓ god, what have I done? What have I said? ⁓ no. And then they're like, So yeah, we've decided we want to offer you the job. And I was like, this is amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely worth it. Yeah, a hundred percent. ⁓ so yeah, so then I started that, was ⁓ in training with MYF ⁓ within six months. Right. ⁓ passed everything first time. So yeah, was then on my way. So yeah. speaker-0: And then at what point did you go into emergency medicine and night work? speaker-1: ⁓ so whilst I was training, ⁓ just before my final exams, I met my husband, ⁓ and I was working in living in Farnborough at the time, but he lived in Hungerford. So I then moved to Hungerford and was commuting to Farnborough backwards and forwards, and I was like, this is not gonna work very long term. So ⁓ so once I fully qualified, I then moved to Vets Pets in Newbury, which is actually no longer there, it's now ⁓ in a in a different location. But yeah, I then worked there and ⁓ during that with the with my CPD allowance, I thought, ⁓ I quite like emergency. So I went to the VetsNow Congress. And I thought, ⁓ my God, I love this. This is amazing. So yeah, when I when I then became pregnant and was on ⁓ was on Mat Leave, I was looking up to see whether I could locum for them, see whether that would be financially viable if I left my day practice, that sort of thing. ⁓ and yeah, ended up going in, met Sarah Benzi. Yeah. ⁓ and yeah, was looking to originally locum and then she, you know, I was there for the interview, ended up monitoring an ana ⁓ monitoring a disney patient in oxygen and was like counting the resp and everything while she was off. Doing the other stuff. Yeah. And ⁓ and yeah, she said, Well that there's actually a permanent role position. And I was like, ⁓ is there? Is there? ⁓ and so yeah, then yeah, it just all sort of fell into place. So yeah, I started there and yeah. Was there for ten years. Ten years. I got my penguin. I made sure speaker-0: ⁓ was it 10 years? ⁓ So if you're at Betts now for, it is 10 years, 10 years exactly, the little mascot is a penguin. speaker-1: Penguin about this big it is I mean Kath Howie's called it a weapon and it is the beat on that penguin. My goodness. If there was an intruder I'd be sorted. speaker-0: I think if I added up all the years I'd worked for Vets Now they should give me a penguin. This is the thing. Because I had breaks and then I locum'd in those breaks. speaker-1: Thanks. ⁓ yeah, but you only locum favets now as well, isn't it? So it was like speaker-0: If that's now a listening, please send me a penguin and I'll put it on the back of the podcast. Yeah, yeah. It's going to have to be dressed in pink and fur maybe. speaker-1: Kind of fairly. Yeah, no, so yeah, so I ⁓ it yeah, I mean over that time obviously a lot happened personally and professionally. I mean I I within six months of being in i Vets now I was then principal nurse manager. Yes. ⁓ you know, but did that for speaker-0: I is a very stressful role. When I went from vet to ⁓ principal vet at Vets Now, the mental load didn't double, it quadrupled. And I don't think we had protected time off. So I remember having a shift and my line manager expecting me after that shift to drive straight to an all day meeting. speaker-1: It is Realize No. The district meetings. Yeah. I've done a district meeting straight to a night shift before. speaker-0: Yeah, same. And she's like, yeah, that's okay. We all do it. You know, it's better that you do after your night shifts. You don't come on your day off. And I was like, ⁓ my God, is it? When do I sleep? When do I eat? When do I shower? speaker-1: I came to Vets now after Matt leaves. So my baby was like 10 months old. Yeah. So I had a baby at home working night. speaker-0: Same, I had a baby at that time. ⁓ speaker-1: When I think about what I did, I'm like, I couldn't do that now. It's amazing how speaker-0: I know how we got through that, although I did used to nap on shift, I'll be honest. speaker-1: Yeah, you did learn how to catnap quite quickly. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I'd stay awake through those meetings otherwise. And then the other thing I found was that you weren't given, ⁓ you know, your management hours are six till 8 PM on this day or nine to 12. It was expected that you would respond at any time. speaker-1: There's a WhatsApp group, there's a there's an email group. speaker-0: emails and everything. I think now they use maybe Teams, I'm not sure. So yeah, I found that really difficult because I think for me anyway, and you can tell us how you felt the level of responsibility that I wanted to respond to messages. I wanted to be a good manager. wanted to be there for everyone, but I didn't look after myself during that time. I myself breaks. speaker-1: No, absolutely. You do you do forget that you are also a person. You're like, I'm this manager, I'm like the responsibility is on me. ⁓ and when I was there I didn't have I didn't have any permanent vets at that point. ⁓ I didn't have I had I had two part time members of staff. I didn't have any other nurses. So I was like ma I like man basically managing the locum rotor. ⁓ and speaker-0: No one to share the role with. speaker-1: No, exactly. Because there was no PV, there was nothing, like it was it was literally all on me. Which I think in hindsight, ⁓ you know, they really they really sort of s looked up to me in terms of like sort of the managers and stuff. They they saw that I was actually doing it and coping with it really well. Yeah. And they were just sort of like, ⁓ don't worry, we'll just leave Sophie to it. And then and in hindsight, I think they probably should have gone, hmm, I think she probably needs a little bit of help. This is a bit too much for just one person. ⁓ and you know, it's you know, I'm very proud of what I actually managed to achieve. ⁓ you know, I did get a mad award in the end as well, which was ⁓ amazing. speaker-0: I mean you were slaying when I saw you. You had that running like clockwork. speaker-1: I mean I mean I think I think I got the management award because by the end of November I'd already got all of the Christmas and New Year rotor finalised with locums. Like it was everything was booked. Yeah. ⁓ because I was like, let's just get this done in advance, you know. So I was, you know, I had all my little email lists. ⁓ speaker-0: that day before Christmas day looking for a lockup? No! Nice day though! speaker-1: Funny enough, we no, not really. No, that was not fun. And no, I was really lucky. We had some excellent locums. ⁓ and actually speaker-0: I know I was one them. ⁓ you were one of them, that's a point. speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ and obviously Danny who's still there. And ⁓ you know, yeah, it was amazing. You know, I was I was very lucky. ⁓ you know, people did turn up for Reading. I think people still have a bit of a soft spot for Reading. ⁓ but ⁓ it's not quite the same anymore. ⁓ but yeah, it was yeah it was amazing. But yeah, it was one of those district meetings that actually made me move back to being a nurse. speaker-0: It's not Yes, that's what I going to say. I wasn't there, but I remembered that you stepped down. So there's a couple of things I remember and I wasn't sure why, because I don't think I was looking at me there at the time. I saw you on one shift with a pick lining. speaker-1: Yes. Yes, that was a couple of years later. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ so that was after you stepped down. Yeah. And then I remember that you stepped down and I was very unsurprised by that because I thought, my God, she's carrying a lot as a child as well. she's doing. So how did that speaker-1: Yeah. So I w me and Kath still laugh about this and Sam Haig as well. She was the district ⁓ district manager at the time and ⁓ and yeah, so we were basically in this ⁓ district meeting talking about responsibility. I think it was around a sort of November ish time and we were sort of leading into the winter season and talking about the responsibility that the practice has on making sure that we keep our customers safe. you know, it be it the the you know the human customers that own our patients and the patients themselves. ⁓ and so it was, you know, it it someone came down from head office and they were there and they were talking about the fact that, you know, we need to ⁓ sort of spread salt on the ground when it's frosty, you know, we need to ⁓ be sort of, you know, clearing paths if it snows and we you know when people phone up, we need to be warning them that it might be a bit cold outside and to take care when they're walking from the car and things like this. You can see where this is going, can't you? speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: And I just literally slammed my hands down on like literally mid-sentence cut this lady off, slammed my hands down on the table and went, or people can just take fing responsibility for themselves, look out the bloody window and think, ⁓ it's snowing, it might be a bit icy. I'd best take care whilst walking to the vet. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Anyway, I then got up, walked out and went, I can't do this anymore Yeah. ⁓ and I was then offered the possibility of ⁓ of of of of of relinquishing the PNM role, ⁓ of which I grabbed with both hands and went, Yes please, I can come not coping very speaker-0: I'm done. I think I'm done. speaker-1: ⁓ but it just got a bit so silly. It was like when did we take responsibility for other adults thoughts and processes? Like we're still both human beings. Like they can do stuff just as much as we can. Like it yeah, I just felt that it was really speaker-0: And I'm not sure they consider the additional workload that that is on you. When you're running a clinic and reading was busy and you're answering phones whilst placing IV lines and things like that. The last thing you want to do is add these five extra sentences. Please make sure you wear sensible shoes when you come down it. speaker-1: No, right? 'Cause in theory, if I hadn't said that and someone had slipped, it's my fault. How is that my f I d I just don't understand. So yeah, so it was just it it's a straw that broke the back. Definitely. Definitely, yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that was the school. Okay, and then let's go from there. speaker-1: Yeah, so from there, ⁓ I mean, I think that was around, I think I started, yeah, I started in 2014. So ⁓ that must have been around the sort of 2017, 2018 time. ⁓ and actually earlier in the in that year, ⁓ I'd been diagnosed with cancer. ⁓ I'd had ⁓ a mole on my forehead for my whole life. ⁓ and apparently it's really unusual for existing moles to change. and ⁓ yeah, I I went to get it checked. ⁓ luckily they had a bit of a two week, two week turnaround at that point for dermatology and things. and ⁓ and I went went to get it checked and then, you know, someone looked at and then went, Yeah, okay, I'm gonna just gonna go get a colleague and then one person came in and had a look at it and then they went out and then two people came in and had a look at it. One of them took a photo and I'm like, Okay, this is cancer, you know, and they were like, Obviously we can't say anything just yet and it's like, Mm really, can you? 'Cause I've pretty much pretty much got the vibe, you know. speaker-0: I know what's going on. Yeah speaker-1: And then it was like, if you're going away at Easter, don't, because we might need to operate, you know. And it's like, okay, fine. So anyway, they took the mole off, they sent it off. It came about malignant melanoma ⁓ at that point. So ⁓ unsurprisingly. Yeah. ⁓ they did a they they needed to do a wider excision. ⁓ and that they were discussing whether to do a a skin flap or ⁓ sorry, a skin graft or do a ro what they call a rotational flap. Yes. ⁓ and they ended up with a rotational flap. So actually I have got quite a lot more hairline now than if I'd had that. So I think ⁓ that's probably a good thing. ⁓ but ⁓ my god, you know when they say you can hear eye contact the room is so silent. So they were doing this right so all of it was ⁓ everything I've had is under local. Okay, so I was wide awake the whole time. They were doing this rotational flap and you could tell that it was quite tight when they were trying to close it. And then there was speaker-0: Yes. Wait, wait. They were doing a flap on your head and you were awake? Yeah. No! Yeah! Shut the front door. speaker-1: fully awake. I asked them to take a photo of my skull but they wouldn't because I hadn't already signed a pre consent form. ⁓ I know No, I really wanted to. But no, no, they didn't. No. But anyway, yeah, so they were doing this. I know. And so they were doing this and then they ⁓ and then there was silence and I was like speaker-0: Like could you watch? could you? Yeah. Bye bye. speaker-1: They don't think this is gonna close. They're looking at each other behind my back. I'm like, they're worried. ⁓ anyway, so then I get a forearm across my forehead to literally pin me to while they wrench this wrench this flap clothes, and ⁓ my god, it was so tight when it finished. But I mean it settled down really quick. Amazing. Because the t ⁓ I know, I know. I think they were worried as well. Yeah. No, it all healed fine. speaker-0: And thank God, because otherwise you would have had a little bally patch. speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely. Yeah, this must have been a hole in my head. ⁓ but ⁓ but yeah, and then you know, in my head I was like, ⁓ it was just a mole, it's all gone, it's all fine, you know, all of these, you know, yes, they'll say they're doing the scans and everything, but all the scans came up clear even when I had the cancer on my head. So I kind of took it with a pinch of salt with all these scans and didn't really consider that it would come back. It was like, ⁓ it was his mole, they've just taken it. Right. ⁓ and then so that was when I thought, okay, fine, I'm gonna get really fit. And that was when I went through that weight loss journey. speaker-0: And you were running and you were running. speaker-1: I did I did a half marathon and I was literally a week before doing my first ultra with blade. Yes. ⁓ and then COVID hit. Blade's my dog. Yes. Not an actual blade. Yeah, I wasn't just gonna run around with a knife. Yeah. That would have been that'll be different, wouldn't it? That's more like Chucky than Yeah, blade as a dog. ⁓ so speaker-0: Blades your dog. speaker-1: So yeah, so I was I was literally about to do that and then COVID hit and then I was ⁓ well that's not gonna happen. So then like everything was deferred to the next year and blah, blah, blah. But during COVID, ⁓ it did come back. ⁓ and I didn't expect it, didn't even consider that it would be the possibility that it would. ⁓ and it came back in my lymph node in my ⁓ in my ear. Yes. ⁓ which I didn't even know there was a lymph node in your ear. It was only when I got a swelling there and I looked it up and I thought, hmm, there's a lymph node there. It's on the same side. I'd best contact and this was a time when I wasn't being seen in person. I had luckily had a phone call with my cancer nurse, ⁓ and I mentioned about the swelling. She was like, Okay, we'll get you in, we'll get it ultrasounded. They were like, Yeah, there's some abnormal cells, so we best probably take it out. speaker-0: How you feel at that point? Under local. ⁓ my God, in the year hall as well. How were you feeling though? Was this sheer panic or were you sophieing on? Because I know you. I sophie on and you deal with it later. speaker-1: I know. Yeah, I I I just thought they'll take it out and it'll be done. You know, and I I didn't even know why it's swelled up. I was just but my first instinct when it swelled up was shit it's back. My first instinct now, five years on, is shit it's back. Whenever I get anything. And that's what people I don't think realise about cancer is that it completely changes how you think about yourself physically. Yeah. Every little lump bump, even if it's not anywhere nearby, you're like, shit it's back. speaker-0: right. This is a different one. speaker-1: From what you know. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so they took that out under local. Couldn't feel it. I heard everything. ⁓ Every scrape, every burn, every stitch, every pull and tug. speaker-0: as a palm or something. Could they at least make you high? speaker-1: No. No. No. I was fully conscious and alert. And yes. Wow. Yes. at one point I think the local was wearing off, or it maybe didn't go quite deep enough. Yeah. ⁓ and it was starting to just twinge a little bit, and I was like, that I could- speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: feel that and he was like, We're so nearly done, we're so nearly done. So to squeeze something, so like you know, you look at the pain relief that we do with animals. It's like the lit the slightest twin. It's like, ⁓ We need more pain relief, we need more Yeah. Me? No, no, we're nearly done, we're nearly done. There's power through speaker-0: I notice that difference between human and veterinary medicine. pain relief. All of it. Humans, they're like have some paracetamol. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. There's a balm for your wound. ⁓ but yeah, so anyway, I mean they sent that off and then they got me in on the meeting, you know, face to face. You sat down with the oncologist and ⁓ and he was like, you know, don't worry, there was no cancer cells found. And I was like, Okay, fine, well that's great. ⁓ so I was like, that's fine, done, dealt with. And then I you know, as I was leaving, I was like, So why did it swell up then? He was like, I don't really know. So anyway, unbeknown me. He contacted the pathologists and asked them to retest it. Yeah. I then get a phone call about three weeks later. ⁓ at the end of a night shift with a locum that I'd never met. So I had no support. I mean, obviously I had the host practice. Luckily, I did I by then I'd obviously had a massive relationship with them. Yeah. ⁓ and and yeah, he was like, Can you talk? And I was like, ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: some. speaker-1: I guess, you know? ⁓ and I was, you know, when I saw it was like Bayesiat Hospital, I was like, okay. Yeah. ⁓ and he was like, so I had it retested, and there is melanoma cells there. We have found some. And I was like, You are kidding me. Like, I've literally just worked all night. I don't have anyone here. Like, I just like really, did you have to do this over the phone? But I know that he wanted to me to know that that was the situation, like as soon as he knew, basically. So ⁓ so yeah, so then it became a sort of six week backwards and forwards between they call them MDT meetings, multidisciplinary team meetings, where ⁓ they discuss it with surgical teams, they discuss it with oncology to ⁓ treatment teams, and they discuss like what they're gonna do. So my two options that they were discussing was either to do a full lymph node dissection of my neck. ⁓ huh. Or to put me on immunotherapy treatment for a year. Yes. ⁓ they went with the immunotherapy treatment. Yes. ⁓ it's got really good results. Yeah. ⁓ it's quite new. ⁓ it was really new when I was doing it actually. ⁓ I did you speaker-0: I learnt about it from you. they do it in pets as well. But I hadn't heard about it until you were doing it. speaker-1: That's really interesting. ⁓ my god, I've taught you something. speaker-0: You've me a lot. But to stay alive through the worst like shift of your life. ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ so yeah, so they decided to do that. ⁓ and they were like, right, so we're gonna start you on that. Three weeks of treatment, ⁓ sorry, treatment for th every three weeks for a year. Yes. ⁓ but I needed to have blood tests the week before. Yeah. So blood test the week before, treatment and then a week off, effectively. That was how I that was how my life was. speaker-0: One year, an entire year, you go one week to yourself, then you have a week for bloods. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. So so then the next week you for treatment. Yeah, so yeah, so on one of the days those we that week I'd have a blood test, then then that and then that. ⁓ my veins are rubbish. Like seriously rubbish. I know, right? They hide. They hide. Excellent. Yeah, they're like the spider behind the sofa. They don't want to come out when there's a when there's a need for them. So so yeah, so I was like, this is not working. Like my blood my my veins weren't recovering in that week. speaker-0: I'm be saying this. speaker-1: Between having the bloods having the treatment. Yeah. ⁓ and then ha only having a week off before doing it again. ⁓ and so it started in the December. By the February, I was like, I'm done. I need the PIC line. I'm sure I like I definitely need it. So then it was like, well, how do I still work with a PIC line in? So I can't restrain animals, I can't lift heavy things. speaker-0: pick line just for everyone listening. That's a long-term IV line. speaker-1: Yeah, so it was an IV line that went in here. it was about forty-five centimetres all the way round and it sat just above my heart. Right. So up the chest. Up the arm, round the chest. Excellent. I watched it on the ⁓ wow, the fluoroscopy. Yeah, it was amazing. And they yeah, so she showed me when she was doing the ultrasound of my arm. Yeah. She showed me like where my artery was and she was like, We need to make sure we don't hit that, you know, and and it was like you could literally see the pulsing. I was like, this is amazing. One minute that I was actually pleased I was conscious for, you know. And ⁓ and yeah, so they put that in and then it's got a ⁓ a sort of two-way catheter ⁓ that you can then either take blood from or yes deliver stuff to. but that then needed weekly dressing changes. Yeah. So then I was then into like an absolutely weekly rotation of making sure that everything happened. they were really good. They organized a home nurse to come rather than me having to go to the hospital for dressing changes, they organized for a community nurse. So that was really nice actually. So I was able to stay at home for a lot of it. Yes. speaker-0: One thing you just said to me. How am I going to work? How you working, ⁓ speaker-1: Yes. Why would so I didn't see myself as a cancer patient. I I speaker-0: No you didn't. This again, this is a hindsight for you. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. I mean this was the start of the decline. This was the start of the major decline was my pick line. I s speaker-0: I saw you with a peck line and I was like, why? Sophie, where are you? speaker-1: So, so people, and I have this view as well. You hear cancer patient, you think three things. They're unwell, they lose their hair, and they're really sick. That's the three things people think of. I wasn't unwell, I had no side effects from the treatment, and I didn't lose my hair because it was immunotherapy, not chemotherapy. Yeah. So I wasn't a cancer patient. I was just. having treatment for something that happened. You know, it was to me, I wasn't a proper cancer patient. So I was like, you know, I don't know, I'm done not having any side effects. So of course I can still work. I'd be fobbing them off if I just stopped, you know, you know, stayed at home all this time when I'm perfectly healthy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ could have been questionable. But, you know, perfectly healthy and able to work because I was not unwell. ⁓ so anyway, they managed they managed to organize for having a overnight for me. So they were doing sort of more of the physical side of things. Yeah. ⁓ and then I was ⁓ I I ended up ⁓ kind of being there as like the the voice, the nerd you know, the one doing the meds, the calculations and things like that. ⁓ and obviously the anaesthetics and everything. So all the sort of biggie bits. But ⁓ yeah, the sort of main ⁓ the main sort of grunt of the work I guess was done by the acca with speaker-0: But it's not even that, you were doing a night shift and you weren't getting your sleep. speaker-1: No my oncologist wasn't very happy about that. He told me he told me to quit my job. You speaker-0: No, absolutely. I'm not very happy about it. You should have been at home resting and sleeping, this is, I imagine two things, work ethic, which is very strong with you and a sense of loyalty and that this is my responsibility. But also financially, like you wouldn't have got speaker-1: No, it was a lot of financial to be honest. speaker-0: I've in with a broken leg because I know if I took a sick day they wouldn't pay me. I've gone to work with broken leg. speaker-1: Me. Yeah. It's insane what we do. So we also f we feel so guilty. Because there is just one vet one nurse. We know that if we're not that other person the ship going down. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. ⁓ and so yeah, so I it never even occurred to me to take time off. It literally was not on my radar at all. speaker-0: Sick pay is horrendous. It's... yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ and interestingly no one even mentioned it, ⁓ other than my oncologist. speaker-0: So did you not have a meeting with like occupational health or something like that with that? That wasn't a thing. speaker-1: No, I just told Sarah Benzi what I was gonna do and said how can I keep working? Okay. And it was like, Yeah, okay, fine. We'll talk to health and safety and they were like, Yeah, okay, health and safety, yeah, you definitely can't, you know, ⁓ do the manual side of things, so we'll organise an acca overnight. And ⁓ that was great because the actors got to see so much more. Yeah. You know, they learnt a lot as well. ⁓ which was great because speaker-0: Keep up. Yeah. speaker-1: You know, one of them is now, you know, doing a masters and, you know, others have gone on to do nursing and things like that. So, you know, in that respect, like I'm I'm quite proud of the fact that I did do it because I think it did help other people as well. Yeah, this I help other people. Yeah. speaker-0: Yes, but Sophie, this is a common thing. So the next bit is a gap for me and actually we've never spoken about it. speaker-1: We haven't. I haven't spoken to a lot of people about this actually. speaker-0: The work that you're doing now, it was just amazing. You did the Baton of Holly. You do chatty bed. I think we talked about all these things in a bit. And you're very supportive and I've seen it in you. I've seen you reaching out to people and saying, I'm here, I can help. So what happened from cancer treatment to... speaker-1: Yes. Yes. So what happened was my identity, and I think this is what also pushed me to go back to work after having Ben. Was my identity was linked with what I'm doing at that moment. So when I had Ben, I was I was Ben the mum. Sorry, I was Sophie the mum. Yeah. I was Ben's mum. I that was that was my identity. And when I'm a nurse, I'm like, I'm Sophie the Ben nurse. Like, yeah, you know, I earned these. post-credentials, you know what I mean? Like I earned that RBN. Like I am Sophie the vet nurse. That is me. ⁓ and when I had my pick line in, it started to not be about me. I wasn't the vet nurse anymore. I was the patient being helped. You know, I was the one that yes, I was able to do the meds, but I didn't feel like I I felt like, you know, the vet could have done the meds. You know, I didn't I felt like I didn't need to be there. But in order for me to not be there, that meant I wasn't the Sophie the vet nurse anymore. And I was like, this isn't this isn't right. And then also I looked up being scientific, we look up scientific papers, don't we? Absolutely. We research, you know, the likelihood of cancer coming back, the likelihood of, you know, how long people live for if cancer does come back and things like that. So I read a lot of studies. Yeah. and the the crux of it is, which again I've learned since, and this is interesting, which I'll talk about. But the crux of it is, I was like, in my head. I've got five years. Yeah. I've got five years. That's it. You know, the cancer's come back. It's now stage three. So you might as well either get the bucket list done. And then I was like, well, I can't do the bucket list because Ben's only seven. Like, we can't just take him out of school and travel the world or whatever. Yeah. So I was like, right, well, they're then hold you know, I in my head, they were holding me back. They weren't at all. It was all in my head, obviously. And And yeah, my ⁓ my decline went I I I was no longer a veteriness in my head. I was, you know, gonna die imminently. So I was like, I'm gonna go out on my own terms. So I was yeah, so so that was and and Lee could see it. He could see the decline. He didn't know where it was heading. He didn't realise just how bad it was. But in my head I had to get away from them because I didn't want them exposed to it. Yeah. So yeah, so I ⁓ I had I had some meds that I had ⁓ from when Barney was unwell. Remember little Barney? and ⁓ so yeah, so I had a a box of tramadol, basically. ⁓ and I was, you know, very, very well I mean, I was literally popping them out to take them and then I thought, no, this is gonna 'cause they they're gonna come home and they're gonna find me. So ⁓ so yeah, so then I I kinda left the house and ⁓ stayed overnight with a friend and then I was sitting in a lay-by on the way home because by this point me and Lee were very ⁓ you know different we weren't communicating at all. Yeah, completely. So ⁓ so yeah, so I was waiting for him to to leave home to go to work and I was in this lay bar and I thought, right, okay, the next lorry that comes past, I'm just gonna step out and it'll be fine and it'll all be over. And then the bloody lorry pulled in behind me on the lay by and I was like, you bastard. So Right. I was like, you but I nearly got out and shouted at him. I really nearly got out. I was fuming. I was like, my one chance. Come on, guys. I thought What is the universe doing? speaker-0: I was about to cry Sophie, because I thought you were about to tell me how you tried. And you said this bloody lorry. speaker-1: Right. And this is why this is why I have such a dark sense of humor because I have to laugh at things. Yeah. I c I you know, I do cry. I do cry now. ⁓ and you know, yes, it is tragic where I was, ⁓ but I can see now that that was the universe telling me that that was not supposed to happen, right? Because thirty seconds later my GP rang me because I was already in communication with them. And she was like, Where are you? And I was like, I'm in a lay-by. And the lorry's just pulled in behind me and now I can't do anything. And it's, you know, and she was like, okay, just okay, just do we need to get the police out? Will you get home? And I was like, yes, I'll be home in 20 minutes. Okay, I'm gonna ring you in 20 minutes. Yeah. So I was like, fine. So I drove home, I got in, and I literally couldn't stand. Yeah, I've never felt anything like it. I literally couldn't stand. I opened the front door, managed to get it shut, and literally just collapsed on the floor and just laid there crying. Blade was really confused. She was What are you doing down there, man? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Why have we got running leggings on? Can we go out? You know? And it was like. And then the GP rang me again and she was, she was like, What are you doing? I was like, Well, I'm just laying on the floor crying at the moment. Yeah. And she was like, right, okay, we've got an off-duty paramedic here. Luckily, again, like it's like the universe just kept everything in place, you know? And ⁓ so that she sent him sent him out whilst they waited for an ambulance so that they could then take me to the hospital. And ⁓ yeah, I went to A and E. ⁓ and at this point I was, you know, really good friends with Kath Harry. You she's one of my besties now. And ⁓ she was then anyway, but ⁓ but she she I remember she messaged me while I was in the ambulance and ⁓ and she was like, look, whatever they offer you, please just take whatever help they offer you. Yeah. ⁓ and I was like, ⁓ my god, they're gonna hospitalise me, aren't we? And she was like, Yeah, they might do, they might do. And ⁓ and I had a I had a mental health assessment while I was in A and E. They did assess me and I know, right? ⁓ they did assess the fact that I was composimentis. I was able to make my own decisions and make my own choices. ⁓ but they they did an assessment and they were like, right, okay, I think you probably need a bit of time off. I called it, I basically said, I want the world to stop and I want to get off. Yeah. I just need I just wanted to get off for a bit, you know. And ⁓ by this point my pick line was out, luckily. ⁓ but ⁓ actually that's a good point. My husband I was hospitalized ⁓ on the day that I should have been having my penultimate cancer treatment. So speaker-0: And if you reached the end and you were like, what now? Yeah. speaker-1: It really was. It really was. It was a it was a this is the beginning of the end for me. That was what it was. It was, you know, I've had the treatment, the scans were all clear, but the scans were all clear before, so I didn't really believe them. Do you know what I mean? Like it was it was well this, you know, it's this pointless. So ⁓ yeah, so the the lady who assessed me was really good actually. She there were two options for the hospital. ⁓ one in Basinstoke, which was a bit more chaotic, and there was one in ⁓ South near Southampton. ⁓ and she fought for me to get a place in Southampton. ⁓ and yeah, I said to her, she was like, ⁓ so will you, you know, we want to volunteer we want to do a do a voluntary section. I was like, So what happens if I don't do it? She was like, Well, we'll just get a section. Thank you. And I'm like, Okay, so there's not really much of a choice here, is there? You know, but ⁓ but yeah, so I was like, Fine, okay, well I guess I'll go then. ⁓ so yeah, so then they organized the taxi. I got one of my friends to nip home, grab some clothes, like brought them in on a Sainsbury's bag. I went to the loo. I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to go anywhere unattended. So I went to the loo and they were like, Where have you gone? Where have you gone? They ran around the hospital trying to find me. ⁓ was there alarms going on? Well, it wasn't quite alarms, but there was certainly panic there. And I was like, I was like, ⁓ sorry, I didn't realise I couldn't agree, you know. And ⁓ anyway, so yeah, so she gave me a little bag of little bag of clothes. And ⁓ yeah, I got in this taxi, took me all the way down to Southampton that first night. I stayed in bed for four days. Yeah. I literally stayed in bed for four days. speaker-0: Exhaust. I think maybe did everything just shut down? Your brain shut down? Your body shut down? speaker-1: Everything's stopped. Just yeah. I don't even really remember those first few days. Yeah. ⁓ it was very much kind of getting woken up to take meds because you know, the the the whole premise of being in that in that level of depth in your head is that you can't make any decisions, you can't make any choices. So they tell you when med time is, they tell you when food time is. Yeah. They tell you when get ⁓ you know, things like that. Yeah. ⁓ so yeah, so I was literally woken up. speaker-0: Yeah. done. speaker-1: To go get some meds, then went back to bed, then woken up and then go get this. ⁓ and actually I don't think I ate for a couple of days because I just was I just wasn't hungry. Which for me, I mean bloody hell. For me to not be hungry, it must have been really serious. I know, right? If I turn down a snap. I'm like a Labrador in human form. So stop eating, it's worrying. speaker-0: when you know I'm sick is all. Yeah, yeah. Same. ⁓ speaker-1: Same. yeah, and I was I was there for six weeks in total. ⁓ I did have some visitors. Six weeks in the hospital. Six weeks. Yeah. They ⁓ yeah, they put my meds up, think. speaker-0: So. speaker-1: Everyone needed that. ⁓ they added in some others that would help me sleep. and yeah, added in some others because I was waking up in the middle of the night as well. And so yeah, you know, they were then adding in more that I could have like what they call PRN, which I I can't remember what it stands for, but it's basically like if you need it, you can also take this dose, but you don't have to every day. Yeah. ⁓ so yeah, so I'd sort of get up and I'd be like, Another PRN, please, because I just couldn't sleep. Yeah. ⁓ you do. Yeah. We know that now. speaker-0: You really need that to heal. Yeah, we know that. speaker-1: did you No, I didn't. No. I went to live with Kath for ⁓ I think it was about three months in the end. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I got let out. Let out. I got let I got discharged. Yeah. ⁓ I think on the 16th of December. So I was in from the 3rd of November to the 16th of December. Yeah. ⁓ totally missed my penultimate and final treatments. Didn't ring the bell. ⁓ because I didn't do my final treatment. ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ Sophie. speaker-1: No. So but they stopped treatment. They like, You've had enough. Like we're we're fine. Like, you know. And and so yeah, so I went to live with Kath for for three months. ⁓ me and my husband started started co counselling, yeah. ⁓ with us both. I'd done my own pro private therapy myself anyway. Yeah. ⁓ but this was for both of us. And for me, I thought it was to basically facilitate our breakup. Facilitate us being able to just step apart. co-parent and me do what I needed to do for the next five years. Yeah. You know. And and it didn't work out that way. ⁓ she's yeah, I still see her ⁓ as ⁓ as a therapist. She's absolutely amazing. ⁓ and yeah she totally saw through my my ⁓ mask of bullshit. Yes. Yes. ⁓ and actually she described my speaker-0: self-destruction. that's was happening. speaker-1: What I described as a breakdown at the time, she described as a breakthrough. And it really was. It really was. It was the catalyst for me being able to sort out pretty much everything that I've ever been through. Yeah. ⁓ and that's still a work in progress, but I'm so much better. So much better. ⁓ and I'm actually really grateful that I didn't, you know, I didn't follow through. I didn't speaker-0: I'm very grateful to Sully. I'm very grateful that the lorry pulled in wherever you are lorry driver. speaker-1: No idea who you are, no idea what company speaker-0: needing a pee break or whatever you were pulling in for thank you speaker-1: It's it's it's quite crazy when you think about those split second decisions and ⁓ and yeah, so I I actually moved back home on Mother's Day. and ⁓ and my son was stoked. ⁓ really, really happy. speaker-0: Yeah. Does he know what happened? Does he know what you speaker-1: Does now. He does now. Yeah. So at the time he was only seven. Yeah. Which is still quite young for them to understand what's going on. He knew that I wasn't well. He obviously I had the pick line in, he knew that I wasn't well. You know, you don't get that for no reason. ⁓ but I don't think he understood how mentally unwell I was. Yeah. ⁓ so yeah, I came home, we did do therapy, ⁓ and ⁓ me and my husband. ⁓ and then later on in the years, ⁓ I offered speaker-0: Because he's older now. speaker-1: For him to do some therapy with me because he still kind of blamed himself, as kids do. You know, they blame themselves. He left, she left because of me. She left because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't good enough, or you know, she couldn't cope or whatever with me, you know. And yeah, it was very, it was really difficult to actually explain to him that it wasn't him at all. Yeah. It was an amalgamation of so much. Yeah. ⁓ and it was just. you know, my body and my head just saying I can't anymore. Yeah. so yeah, so we had we had a therapy session together, ⁓ and he did he did really well. ⁓ you know, he was I'm so proud of him. ⁓ because he asked for it, actually. And ⁓ and we speaker-0: as a little voice, such a sweet little boy. And he came to my opening day at the vet station. And this is the thing about you. You messaged me on my opening day for the clinic and said, I am really sorry. can't make it. And Ben are going to come to support you. I speaker-1: That was while I was in hospital. But Because Ben was really into fire stations at that point, like come on. speaker-0: but you were in hospital thinking about me! Stop that! speaker-1: That's what I do. ⁓ yeah, no, that is a bit crazy when you put it like that. But but yeah, I mean I still thought about I yeah. I then f I then felt guilty for all the things that I wasn't then doing. Yeah, absolutely. And ⁓ and yeah, it's really interesting what what's come out what's come out of of all of it is ⁓ you know it's so it's so powerful now. You know, I you know we did I did that therapy session with Ben. speaker-0: You have to put yourself first sometimes. speaker-1: did a second one with him because he I was like, look, you if you need another one, we had another one and he's great now. He's fine. Like he gets it. Yeah. ⁓ he's not all about it, you know, but ⁓ but but it was in it was in hospital that I met an amazing lady called Lara. and and she in she about two years after we were discharged, 'cause she got discharged as well at the but she was in ⁓ because she broke her ankle after attempting. and and so we met we were the Jigsaw Queens. That's what that's for. Yeah, and I got the I got the bottom piece because ⁓ we met at Rock Bottom. ⁓ So ⁓ so yeah, so we were the Jigsaw Queens in the in the hospital. And ⁓ and yeah, I met her. She then ⁓ was was gonna hold the baton for the baton of hope. Yeah. ⁓ and that was like my first knowledge of of what it was. ⁓ so I went down to Brighton and and, you know, supported her and when we got out, she wanted a dog. So we were talking about the dogs and stuff. We went to crafts all the stand. She ended up getting a little Tibetan terrier called Lily, who's just amazing. and ⁓ and yeah, so she did the Baton of Hope and I was like, ⁓ this is quite, you know, this is a really great initiative. ⁓ so I then started promoting it a bit more. ⁓ it then it runs every two years. Yeah. ⁓ so then it ran two years later, and Lara was then leading the pro the the the the whole kind of root within Portsmouth. ⁓ and obviously being close to where I was then hospitalized and being Lara, I was like, I want to hold the baton as well. You know, kind of in that sort of you know samey phobo way. Exactly. ⁓ I made I actually made the decision not to hold the baton ever before that because the day before it was in Portsmouth it was in Basingstoke. And that was so I then went as a mental health first aider in Basingstoke to kind of help support the people who were holding the baton. and and yeah and then and then in Portsmouth it was it was my turn and I picked it up from Gun Wharf Keys. ⁓ I've they they took it down the ⁓ what's that Gun Wharf Tower? Spinnaker Tower. Spinnaker Tower. Yeah, so they took it up and then they then I picked it up after they took it down after they brought it down. And ⁓ and God, that holding holding that for the first time was just speaker-0: Please break down a little bit. speaker-1: A little bit. Not not massive but I was ⁓ yeah, I was choked. I was choked up. ⁓ it it is an a it's an amazing piece in itself. ⁓ it's made from from gold and silver by the people who ⁓ who designed all the all the royal Jewelry, the crown jewels, that sort of thing. Yeah. All of that for Queen Elizabeth. And ⁓ and yeah, on the top there's the semicolon. Yeah. Which again I was already aware of as well, that semicolon. so the semicolon, ⁓ when a writer is using a semicolon, it generally is used when a sentence could have been ended, but they decide to carry it on. And the sentence is your life. ⁓ And you could have ended it and you decided to carry on. Yeah. So it is that semicolon moment where you go, No, do you know what? I'm I'm staying now. Yeah. ⁓ and so yeah, so they've got that kind of going round in a ring at the top. ⁓ and inside there's a quote that you can't ever see it, but inside there's a quote from I think I wanna say Gandhi. speaker-0: I'm not sure. Let's just say Gandhi. Yeah. speaker-1: One of them. Yeah. ⁓ and yeah, it's it's absolutely incredible. Absolutely incredible. So yeah, it's weighty. It's pretty heavy. Pretty heavy. ⁓ so yeah, so then I I did that and ⁓ and through being ⁓ linked with the people in Basinstoke 'cause obviously I'm so local to them, I ⁓ you know, I've kept in contact with them and one of their legacy pieces is the chatty bench. It is, it is. It's really speaker-0: chat events I saw this it looks like Tell me about the chatty bench. speaker-1: So the Chatty Bench, so they they do have them in other locations, I think, but basically they ⁓ they put it there as a bit of a legacy piece for them to go there and basically just open up conversations with people. ⁓ you know, we know that loneliness is a massive issue, we know that mental health is a massive issue, ⁓ we know that there are lots of people suffering in silence, ⁓ as I did for a long while. and it's just about being there to just reach out and not. Not force anyone to talk, but just explain why you're there. So I I need my comfort blanket. Like I can't just go and sit by myself. So my comfort blanket is my two dogs. Yeah. So I would go with them because there are people out there again who don't have dogs, who love dogs, who maybe don't, you know, don't see them that often, don't pet them and stuff. So I go there with the dogs on the premise that they're doing the work. Yeah. You know, the dogs are helping other people by being there and smiling and things like that. So the number of people that you'd come up and they'd be like, ⁓ Can I pet your dog and I yeah of course you can it really speaker-0: think it's a conversation opener when there's a on the street and it's just me and another person and no animals. We don't speak, we don't say hello, whatever. But if my dog's with me, hi, your dog's amazing. Hi dog, can I pat her? speaker-1: And the number of people who I don't even speak to when I'm there, but that look, smile at the dogs, catch my eyes, smile and walk off. That little second of con of connection, you know, they've bright I've brightened their day. They've had a smile that day. If nothing else, they have smiled once that day. Yeah. You know, and ⁓ and I I went there ⁓ because I also know ⁓ for me Christmas is not a great time. So I went there before Christmas, ⁓ and I think it was literally like the 19th of December. And I went there before Christmas to just basically say that if pe you know, if people stop like you don't have to be happy at this time of year. Like everyone's talking about, ⁓ you've got to be jolly, you've got to meet your family, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. No, some people hate their families. And people don't have any family left. Do you know what I mean? Like that's you can't you can't like stigmatise that ⁓ that way. So I was there to basically go, Do you know what? If you're having a shit time, you can still have a shit time at Christmas. Like it doesn't matter. It's one day, it's one moment in time, you know, it's fine. And this lady came up and she was petting the dogs and she was like, ⁓ so you know, what you why are you here? You know, what you're doing. I was like, ⁓ I'm just here just to basically say that, you know, Christmas is pretty shit for a lot of people. And, you know, it doesn't matter. and just to say, you know, you do you, you know? And she literally, she looked at me and she just burst into tears. And I was like, ⁓ my god. And she was like, I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. She was like, No, no, it's fine. I just I think I needed to hear that, you know. And so we had a hug and she wandered off and I, you know, I will never know who she is, but she needed to hear that. Yeah. And I made a difference, you know? And it's it's about that. It's about voicing the unvoiceable. Yeah. You know, bre I mean, we we know about, you know, speaking the things that people are thinking. That, you know, devil's advocate, that one that kind of ⁓ you know, bucks the trend, should we say, doesn't follow conforms. No. speaker-0: And you made a diff speaker-1: ⁓ and so so yeah, so I'm I'm kind of that little voice going, ⁓ I'm through the other side, thank you very much. And ⁓ you can be too. Yeah. You know Follow me through. Exactly. It's like right this way. ⁓ so yeah, and and actually I I spoke to somebody recently who's doing a study at Edinburgh for his PhD within veterinary medicine. ⁓ and he's doing it around his his you know, whole sort of study is around suicide and suicide ideation within the profession. Yeah. ⁓ and I said to him that what we need to do is we need to talk to those people who are through the other side. Yeah. Because those people who aren't can't tell you what will help. Yeah. Those people who aren't at here anymore can't tell you what could have helped. So the only people that you can talk to are the people who are still here. Yeah. The people who have been through it, who are out the other side and who can now talk, you know, more rationally. about what could what could be done and what changes can be made. ⁓ and one of those changes is actually happening. I was I was part of the ⁓ I'm part of the ⁓ the commute the Compton engagement panel for the BSI suicide prevention standard. Yeah. ⁓ and actually the RCBS, their practice standard scheme in April, they decide they they've they've put the core standard in that practices must have a suicide prevention program. Wow. So it's it it is it's filtering in. Yeah. You know, people within the profession. We all know that the profession is rife with mental health, with burnout, with yeah, you know, ever suicide. You know, how many people I think you speak to anyone, they all know someone who's lost their life to it. Yeah. Within the profession or out of the profession. speaker-0: You're the second person on my podcast that I've talked to about it. And that's two from my friend group. And that's two that made it. I mean, I know multiple others that didn't make it. And I'm just one person with four or five connections to it. Everyone in the veterinary industry has lost a friend. Almost lost a friend. It's rife. speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It is, it is. And it's not getting better. Awareness people think that awareness makes it better. No. Awareness makes it visible. And it is more visible. Yeah. But it doesn't fix it. And so all that happens is that the burnt out people then know they're burnt out, but there's still nothing actually happening. Help them not be burnt out. You do know what I mean? And ⁓ and I remember when I was learning about speaker-0: Yeah. about it. speaker-1: Burnout and compassion fatigue. And compassion fatigue they see as a very kind of individual, kind of almost kind of window of tolerance threshold. That's that's where the compassion fatigues comes through. Whereas burnout, burnout is a corporate issue. Burnout is a work placement issue. Yes. And it's ⁓ and it's something that the employees cannot fix aside from leaving. Like you can't you can't fix from the ground up a tride. speaker-0: I struggle to leave those roles. Like I've been in burnout roles and I've been too burnt out to leave and find a new job. So you're kind of stuck. speaker-1: The idea of doing an interview and you're burnt out trying to try and actually promote yourself. Like I don't I'm gonna develop under the duvet That was too overwhelming. and so yeah, so it yeah, it's great that we've got this awareness, but we need it needs to be a top down thing. And I think that this suicide prevention core standard from the R C V S is going to it's gonna help people think about it. Yeah. speaker-0: or even looking for the job. speaker-1: It is gonna help people think about it. And it's not just about here's a number to EAP you know, it's not just They give you a phone. VetLife is a charity. VetLife gets no funding from the government. It is not a national in you know institution. And that's where things need to change. This it needs to be, you know, it needs to be so much bigger than just speak to this charity. Like, okay, that's great, but what if the charity gets overwhelmed? Yeah. I mean, like, there's always so much they can do. Yeah. speaker-0: to take responsibility. speaker-1: For the there needs to be and and I'll be honest, I tried. I put a whole program together in 2019. Yeah. In 2019, when the mental health first aider training came out, I put myself through it. I used my CPD budget and I put myself through it because I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. It was three days. and yeah, I came out a mental health first aid and I ⁓ my speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: This is great. Like you learn so much more about the different things that can go. Because, you know, I don't know about addictions or, you know, ⁓ schizophrenia or, you know, the conditions that I don't have, you know, you don't always learn about those. So ⁓ so it gave a great awareness for all of that. And I thought, great, okay, we need you know, mental health first aiders like everywhere. ⁓ and then there was there was a thing called mental health champions. I don't know if they have that now. I think they're all just mental health first aiders. ⁓ but at the time I was like, right. If we did, if you if they put me through the training, they'd be in vets now. If they put me through the training to be a trainer of the mental health first aider qualification, and then I delivered internally, I was like the the trainer, and then I trained, you know, and made sure that in the district there was at least two to three mental health first aiders, and in every single clinic, there was at least two mental health champions, people that people could reach out to. Yeah. People could that could be that middle step before going to occupational health, before going to the GP or end up in A. and I wrote I costed it out and I worked out how much it would save by doing the the training versus putting ev all of those people on the training. And I sent that to the current to the CEO at the time. and to his credit, he did fly down and have a have an open face to face with me. But that was it. speaker-0: of that ended up in A. speaker-1: It went anywhere. It went nowhere. speaker-0: didn't go in. And was there a different plan put in place? speaker-1: Okay. And out of all of the departments in the country in the company, the health and safety, health and wellbeing team? Two people. Two people. God knows how many whether I'm marketing. ⁓ IT or debt collection. Or debt collection. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Two people. For an entire country, national, out of hours, well known. speaker-0: Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. speaker-1: mental health decline business. speaker-0: Yeah, and imagine it's similar to the other companies. speaker-1: As well. And I think it's shocking. Okay. ⁓ and that's what needs to change. When people say that they're going to invest in their employees, that's what it means. They need to literally make that department bigger and make sure that they they that it is more available. And it's not about just, you know, ⁓ here's a pizza on a Friday. Here's a free gym membership, you know, and it's like speaker-0: ⁓ my god, I hate that! Have one coffee a week. First of all, one coffee a week doesn't touch the speaker-1: Well I mean I'm a tea girl, you know that. I've got a copy, I'm gonna tea a week, geez, I would still be killing people. Do you know what I mean like speaker-0: Serious, yeah. If we're gonna scratch the size, I'm gonna need two coffees before my first consult, please. speaker-1: Right, exactly. And it's ⁓ you know, it's not about the fluff. No it's it's about the deep, nitty gritty. And and that's what that's what needs to change. Real psychological safety. Yes. People don't ask people don't talk about things because they're worried about how it's gonna appear. Yeah. They're worried about how there'll be s you know speaker-0: change, real culture change, real evasion. speaker-1: Turned on almost or like, ⁓ I don't know if I want to work with them because they might be a little more unstable. You know, and it's like, no, just yeah. speaker-0: I've told you about this. I've told a few friends, but I was at this point once. It was a little bit more ⁓ postnatal depression, I think. I wanted to jump off a bridge. I was also looking for a lorry. And the reason I didn't was that I had my daughter with me and I thought someone might kidnap her. So she saved me. My postnatal depression wasn't about my child. In fact, she was the only one that could make me smile. And I didn't know how to get myself out of this. My husband had no clue. speaker-1: Okay. Okay. That's two. Well ⁓ speaker-0: He didn't know what was going on. My friends didn't have any. Not a single person knew how I was feeling until one day I couldn't get up off the floor and I called, I think I called 999. And I was like, I can't do it anymore. I'm done. What do I do? And they said, we've booked you an appointment at the hospital. Go now. So I went down and there was a GP there and I just said, I'm done. I'm done. The only reason I didn't jump off a bridge today was because I didn't want someone to kidnap my daughter. And just saying it. speaker-1: I did really well because we're Wow. speaker-0: I swear all of a sudden I felt better. It lifted the clown lifted. He's like, right. I've got you an appointment with the GP. We're going to follow up with you. I've got you some counseling. Do you want medications? I actually tried them and they were disgusting. I hated them and I never took another tablet ever again. It was like not for me, yeah. He did an open door. I didn't know what the open door was. My postnatal depression came after the midwife had stopped coming to see speaker-1: It's not for everyone. It and it often does. It often does. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ it's voicing things really helps. Yeah. ⁓ and it's voicing things to the right people really helps. You know, there are lots of people that are still very kind of like, ⁓ I don't really think mental health is a thing, you know. And ⁓ you know, and and if I I mean to them I I say, Come talk to me, you know. Like, ⁓ you know, if you want to chat, I'm here, I'll open up, you know. ⁓ but yeah, it it's speaker-0: All got better from there. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing this. It's been amazing. I feel very tearful. I know I'm trying to together and finish the podcast, but I might go and have a coffee with your tea for you and crying a little bit. But thank you so much for coming and sharing. It's really important and I hope that this helps. speaker-1: Do it! Very welcome. You're welcome. Yeah, no, it's it's it's great. And and I am a a massive open book, you know, seriously. If anyone wants to wants to reach out after them, ⁓ I'm on LinkedIn, ⁓ I'm on Facebook. ⁓ they're probably the ways. But otherwise if they can get in contact with you, then you know you can pass my email on somebody. Absolutely. So yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. speaker-0: Can they reach out to Yeah, well done, Sophie.