Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Huge Pressure on ABs for Bledisloe Cup & Women’s RWC Final Blockbuster

Transcript

Huge Pressure on ABs for Bledisloe Cup & Women’s RWC Final Blockbuster · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  So everyone's been saying to me this week, I don't think Scott Barrett should be kept in.
• 0:04
  They can still win the bledish load, they can still win the rugby championship, and what then?
• 0:09
  Then it's fine again. Victor, I don't think it's fine again.
• 0:13
  So the Afrikaans win the backs against the wall, they just stand up, and that greekwalk back was
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  unbelievable. The black fans, we just expect them to win wall cups because that's what they do,
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  and now they're not even in the final. We need to get back to like an NRL format and bring back
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  the Rams really shield. I'm just going to have to find an Argentinian in the Australian
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  to come on the show with me, and maybe you guys are tired.
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  All right, welcome to the rivals, gentlemen, and let's get straight into it with a massive
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  game for the All Blacks this weekend after Victor's South African friends are set us the other week.
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  JK? Yeah, it's a massive game for South Africa as well, Ricardo. Like what are you undermining,
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  undermining Argentinian? Are you? It's a massive... No, it's a massive.
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  We don't ever get as full of confidence, you know that. They're winners, and you're in the
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  game. All right, okay, okay, I know. There's a pressure that's getting to you already.
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  He's even got the black glasses on this morning now. It's starting.
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  The white one is gone. Can you just don't start me, all right? I've had a good weekend, I'm good.
• 1:21
  Well, the black friends lost. I'm not that good, but yeah, look, Ricardo, it's as you would
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  know, Victor, you don't obviously live in New Zealand, but if the same thing happens in South Africa,
• 1:32
  the whole country is pretty stressed about it, and you know what it's like, they all of us,
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  because we're such a rugby nation, you're all looking into whether it's the coaches at the captain,
• 1:46
  you know, is it the leadership, is it this, is it that? And so it's been a pretty,
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  pretty tough time I should imagine for the players, and that there's a lot of noise going on.
• 1:56
  And yeah, to answer your question properly, Ricardo, I think it's a massive weekend. Like I said,
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  this, I think, and you might disagree with me, Victor, but I think if this side wants to become
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  a great side, when we talk great sides now, we're talking about winning trophies and winning the
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  World Cup, right? That's, that's the yardstick. I think great teams go through adversity,
• 2:16
  and they come out the other side way better. And I think this is a moment of adversity,
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  the first big moment of adversity for, for the coaching staff and this current crop of players.
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  So I reckon it's massive, because if we can get up and be a good Australian side and take home
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  the championship, then, you know, that, that's got to be seen as a success. And people say,
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  we should be winning a whole lot more, but the games way closer, Victor, like the teams are way
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  closer now. And that's how it should be. I think it's great for the competition. Hard on us,
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  but great for the competition. What do you think is going to happen, Victor, in the Bundesliga?
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  Yeah, it's going to be interesting. I see there's a lot of talk about the Razor and Joe Schmitt's
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  relationship, what happened in the boss. So there's definitely some oil in the fire this weekend. So
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  it's nice to see. And I think it's good for the players to look up. I mean, for the last few
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  years, there wasn't really a lot of competition and New Zealand just wanted to easily. And all of
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  a sudden, I think this Australian side will compete on this weekend. So it's going to be
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  interesting. Imagine the same with the rugby championship. We're back to square one almost,
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  back to zero. Everyone is there. Anyone can still win it. I've said it. I mean, Argentina is probably
• 3:36
  the best attacking side in the world at the moment. So they will test South Africa. South Africa will
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  feel, listen, we're back at it. The confidence are back. But I've said it. Normally, we're not very good
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  when we're the favorites. We're much better when we're the underdogs. But yeah, it will be interesting
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  to see what Russia is going to do. I mean, some of the youngsters came through. They're going back
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  giving some of his older players opportunity again. So that will be interesting. But yeah, I'm
• 4:05
  really looking forward to the baddest low cup. I think it's going to be a huge smash. And Australia's
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  competitive in all the games, even when they start badly, they stick into the gammas. They don't
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  leap. The game get away and they competitive at the end. So it's going to be good. But I'm with
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  John on it. I don't think you'll ever get a year again, like the All Blacks had over the last 10
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  years or 15 years where you win close to 90, 85 percent of your games. I think all the teams
• 4:41
  is just too competitive. When we go over to the Northern Hemisphere at the end of the year,
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  you have to play Ireland, you have to play England, you have to play France. There, I don't think we
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  just pitch up as South Africa and New Zealand and expect to win those games anymore.
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  So just listening to the two of you, one of you is in a state of confidence after the last test
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  of one of the state of lack of confidence after the last test. As a player, what's easier to go
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  into mentally when you've got that frustration after the last game when you've lost or when you're
• 5:13
  feeling so confident about winning that you just need to roll out and keep doing what you do.
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  Ricardo, I'm not actually lacking confidence. It's not lacking confidence. I think it is a really
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  critical moment. So to answer your question, adversity for me means that these moments thrive a
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  whole lot of questions, right? If you think about what South Africa and the amazing thing about
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  Rusty, under that pressure, he doesn't fall. He just does what he wants, changes the team, does a
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  whole lot of different stuff, right? This and wins. This particular moment in time for the
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  all blacks is, okay, our scrum wobbled a wee bit. Is that a reflection of our scrum? Let's just hope
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  it's a one off. Our line out wobbled a wee bit. Is that a reflection of our line out? Our line out
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  has been pretty good. Where are our leaders in the second half when we need them? Is our leadership
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  need some tweaking, right? And then the coaching staff will look at themselves and saying,
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  are we doing too much for the players? Are we not doing enough for the players? So for me, it's a
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  moment in time. I don't lack the confidence. I just believe that, I mean, I'll throw to you, Victor,
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  this has been a really interesting one for you because you're one of the greatest locks who we've
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  been playing, right? So everyone's been saying to me this week, I don't think Scott Barrett should
• 6:36
  be captain. It doesn't look like he enjoys it and I don't think he's playing well, right? And so
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  I say, well, there's three questions there. If he doesn't like being captain and is affecting his
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  play, that means the coach needs to sit down and have a really honest chat with him. I still think
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  he's playing well. I think Scott has got a good work rate. I also say this, you know, Richie McCall
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  after the 2007 World Cup, like we're all saying he can't captain bad decisions. He even said in his
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  own book, like I was thought thinking about retirees terrible time. Then he became our greatest
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  captain, right? So for me, there's a whole lot of these questions that only the players can answer,
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  you know, only the players can answer. I think one of the biggest issues, think about this.
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  That wasn't the worst game I've seen the Oblux play. The worst game I've seen in the Oblux play
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  was the pre-season game and before the World Cup in Twickenham, we got smashed from minute one,
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  right? And then we came through and went to the final. So it's not a lack of confidence
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  record. I believe there's a few things that aren't working and this all black team will come together,
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  they'll be honest, they'll work it out, and then they'll come through this and they'll be way
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  better. And that's what I firmly believe. But the, you know, the the Barrett question that is
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  a real engineering, because I still think he's playing well, but captaincy is an interesting
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  moment, right? Some people love it, some people don't, but you still have to learn it,
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  is he still learning it? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think people sometimes go overboard with
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  a captaincy issue. I think, I mean, if you go back to Cia Cullisi, we need you to got the
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  captaincy in the beginning. He was kind of a little bit insecure, didn't know how to do it.
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  Russi came out to say, Cia, the only thing I want you to do is say, two things I want you to
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  focus on. Firstly, body language. I want you, I need you to be positive, doesn't matter what
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  happened on the field, I need you to be positive. Second thing, you're only going to talk to the
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  ref. And every game, I'll tell you what's the point that we want to drive in a test match. And
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  that's how Cia started. If you could look back at 29 to World Cup, Dwayne from Mielin, whenever
• 8:52
  they got into a circle, Dwayne was the guy talking. Yebin would be from the side, but Dwayne and
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  Hundred, those, those two were the guys talking in the circle. But then from there, Cia grew so much
• 9:05
  over the next four or five years. Next World Cup is completely different. You could see it took
• 9:11
  on a much more responsibility within the leadership group. So I think people go overboard to the
• 9:18
  captaincy. These days, it's about a leadership group. It's about the relationship between the
• 9:23
  coach and the captain. How do you make vital decisions on the field? I mean, in the beginning,
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  Russi probably made all the decisions from the side. That's why he was on the side sometimes
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  British and Iceland stay serious as well. And then as the captain start understanding the coach,
• 9:39
  understanding how he wants to play, how he sees the game. I mean, when I was with Hanukkah,
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  mate with the Bulls, in the beginning, you also like to come into the field. And at some stage,
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  I see to the fitness guy running, I just go away, I'll make the decision. And Hanukkah wasn't happy
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  with it at some stage. And I said, Hanukkah, you know 89% or 90% of the time we're going to make
• 10:01
  the right decision. But sometimes on the field, I can feel something that you can't feel because
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  you're not on the field. And you must allow me to make those decisions. But that was only after we
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  worked together for four, five years. And we looked at the game exactly the same. So I mean,
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  Scott Robertson and Barrett has been together as captain coach of the Crusaders. So they must understand
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  how they want to play, how they want to, when you lose momentum, how do you get it back?
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  Why do we go back to it? So I still think, yeah, I'm with you, Jake. I think he's a great player.
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  I think he's still going to be a great old black captain as well. So I mean, a week ago,
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  after you've beaten us in Eden Park, everything was fine. It was a great old black team. Now,
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  everyone has listened what's going to happen here. The one thing that I have to say is,
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  I think was South Africa. Russia has created a group of players. And there's different styles
• 11:00
  that fit different games. And I think where the game is going, that's what you need. You need
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  a different team. You maybe need a different nine, fifteen. That can change up a game. The
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  depends on what you want on the weekend. And that's something I haven't seen with all blacks.
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  It's always the same. They haven't given any new guys opportunities at 10, 15,
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  pretty much the same every week. And there's probably only one way that they want to play.
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  So I totally agree with that. I think Scott Barrett's the man for the future. I think
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  but there needs to be some change. The leadership group need to stand up. They need to sit around
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  them. There needs to be some honest discussion. And I'm convinced there will be Ricardo. So I totally
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  agree with Victor, but that doesn't mean it's just going to happen. Victor tells his coach to
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  not interfering. That big moment, you can say it pretty easy now, Victor, but that takes courage,
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  right? And there just needs to be some real courageous conversations this week. And I'm convinced
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  there will be. And it'll be the best thing. It'll be the best thing that happened for him. So
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  I'm pretty confident that you need these moments. And I'd rather have them now a couple of years
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  out from the work. I do agree with you, Victor. And I sometimes, I think a half back crisis has been
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  about really about injury, right? So now we've got Cam Roy guard back,
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  got both them back. I think there's a couple of the boys back. But the interesting thing for me,
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  I don't think we have the depth that we had before. So when you talk about fullback,
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  someone just doesn't come straight into my mind as, yeah, okay, we could try that. You know,
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  same with first five. So I think we've got some depth that you should know. And this is when
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  got, when guys like Richie Moonga go overseas for the yen, they go over for money, then I think we're
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  suffering a little bit like Australia's suffering. You know, Will Skelton, having to go back to his
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  French side, will weaken them because they don't have two others like him. And that's why I think
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  South Africa has definitely got the jump on us at the moment where they've got way more depth.
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  I don't know how do you serve Ricardo? Well, I don't think that's an accident though. I think that's
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  something that that Russie's been consciously building by taking risks. And that's a lot easier
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  to take risks when you've just won the World Cup as a coach. You know, you go, well, I'm going to
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  have a grace period because people rate me because I've won the World Cup. So I can experiment. Whereas
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  if you raise a Robinson coming in, you're trying to prove yourself you don't have that same
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  opportunity. But South Africa has done an amazing job building depth. You know, they may have lost one
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  or two tests along the way. But now they're in this incredible position where they've got 30 or 40
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  players that they can pick and choose. Now, we're not in that position. And I want to ask you about
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  one player, particularly a JK, how big a loss when you talk about leadership was Cody Taylor?
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  Yeah, massive. He's he's he's had probably the best two seasons. I just wanted to correct you on
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  something. Russie's not a South African coach means he's a South African god. He's a god over there.
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  I thought that was a picture. Yeah, yeah, Victor. He's not coaching.
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  Okay, Russie. Yeah, look, I think like Victor said a couple of weeks ago and he was right. And
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  this is where I think we need to look at the way we've been doing things for the last 15 to
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  many years. Players playing overseas, all those things. So they have incredible depth right at the
• 14:25
  moment. I don't think New Zealand has that type of depth anymore, right? So to answer your question,
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  you can't keep changing the side if you're going to lose and you can't have someone who
• 14:38
  thinks world class coming back up. So, you know, challenge that on JK because you say,
• 14:43
  well, where's our next fullback? Well, what about the guy called Ruben Lut?
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  But why is that? Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with Victor's. I agree with what Victor said is that
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  we need to play these guys, right? And I think your first statement that when Razor
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  come in, we all thought he might have made wholesale changes and tried stuff in his first year
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  when you get away with stuff. It's called a honeymoon period. You know, and he wanted to win
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  and I understand that. And I think that's what Russi's done and what Razor's done have been
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  two different philosophies. And I do think that we do need to take more risk. But like you said,
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  you know, coming off your winning and Russi says things like, I'm going to try some stuff and the
• 15:31
  public back him, right? And then he has a loss and he has a win, has a loss and so do we. But maybe
• 15:38
  we do need to be a little bit more courageous on playing guys. But are you going to do it this week?
• 15:42
  Victor, are you going to do it this week? No, you're not going to do it this week. And to answer
• 15:46
  your question, yeah, we miss guys like Cody Taylor. But I also think Somasone came on and did
• 15:53
  an amazing job. Take care. Why won't you do it this week? I mean, the guys didn't perform at
• 16:00
  the certain level. Shouldn't they know these consequences? And I don't say make 15 changes,
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  but if there was three full guys that didn't stand up, they didn't perform the biggest or
• 16:13
  second biggest test match of the season. Shouldn't they make change? And I think that was probably
• 16:19
  the thing with Russi is listen guys, you had the opportunity at Inem Park. This was a big test
• 16:25
  for us. Some of you didn't come through. I'm going to give other guys the opportunity to see
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  what they can do. And I know it's a big risk and I know as players, we always like give us another
• 16:35
  chance. But at some states, and he will never throw them away, he will definitely bring it
• 16:41
  out. Players will get an opportunity again. But it's almost just like showing to him, listen,
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  there's other guys that can do the job. You're not always just safe in your little environment.
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  And then I've seen it with teams and I'm not talking about the wall blacks. I've seen it with
• 16:55
  provincial teams, other teams and Rackby where they almost start believing their own nonsense
• 17:02
  they're talking, coming up for each other, almost not seeing the weaknesses within the squad.
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  And sometimes I think that's where Russi is very hard. A certain state, if you don't have
• 17:14
  up to it, you are. If you're not in the 23, you negative, I'll kick you out of the squad.
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  If you don't perform on a Saturday, there's other players. They'll get an opportunity. I mean,
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  last year, when you played Australia as well, that second test match. Played a young team. First
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  off, they struggled. It could have easily, the easiest thing that you could have done as
• 17:35
  you had all the experienced guys on the bench is to say, listen, go on, go change the game. He said,
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  no, I've picked your youngsters. You need to come through in the second half and they did come
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  through in the second half. So I think that's really one thing that Russi got right within the
• 17:49
  squad. As everyone knows, it's a very, very four man squad. It's not a 15 man or 23 man team.
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  Everyone is there and whoever gets an opportunity needs to perform because otherwise someone else
• 18:03
  is going to get an opportunity. So I think for me, this is the first time with New Zealand where
• 18:09
  it doesn't matter what happened. They almost just stick with the same guys. I haven't seen other
• 18:15
  guys in the New Zealand jersey. I mean, I haven't seen. I don't know guys that can step in because
• 18:22
  no one had gotten opportunities. Yeah, look, I think that part of what it was in my day,
• 18:32
  you always got a couple of games to put things right. But I do think it's two different
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  philosophies at the moment. Victor, I do think that you're correct that Russi's got a philosophy
• 18:46
  of a 33, 34 man squad and he's playing them. And I think that takes courage. I don't think this
• 18:54
  current selection committee with Razor have the same philosophy. I think they're going to change
• 19:01
  people out for injuries and I just think it's a philosophy. Is it the right philosophy? I think
• 19:06
  time will tell. I was convinced then, obviously, you played the video back to me. I thought that
• 19:13
  coming off Auckland that some of the things you lost, the reason why you lost the test match was
• 19:19
  some combinations and some errors. I thought by completely changing the side that would change.
• 19:24
  I was wrong. It didn't. They played incredibly well, especially in the second half. So I think
• 19:30
  there's pros and cons, but I definitely think it's a philosophy. If you're in all black,
• 19:34
  you normally get another chance after you've lost. Is that right philosophy? I think it's a really
• 19:39
  valid point and I can't answer that because I think the only ones that need to answer that is
• 19:44
  is the all blacks if we don't have the death. Isn't it a beautiful thing, though, that we've got
• 19:49
  you know, we've got one more home in the way around or one more double round and we still have
• 19:56
  no idea who's going to win the rugby championship. And we're sitting here deciding whether it's going
• 20:01
  to be the all blacks or South Africa, but it could easily be Argentina or Australia. So, you know,
• 20:07
  yeah, I don't think the championship has ever been this open. I think it's the first time ever
• 20:14
  that any of the four teams can win it. And I mean, I'm nervous for this weekend because we normally
• 20:21
  don't play very well in Derben. I don't know why. I think maybe again, I said it, we actually like
• 20:29
  die weather and Derben with a humidity is always very difficult to play ball in hand. So
• 20:35
  we'll probably have to play a bit more conservative again or those, yeah, hopefully it won't be too hot
• 20:42
  or those getting hot enough. But yeah, so I mean, any team can win it and I think Argentina is a big
• 20:48
  threat. Australia is a big threat and even for the bled is low cup. It's fantastic that Australia is
• 20:55
  back in their games. So, yeah, I'm excited. Anyone can still take it and I mean, you're me sitting,
• 21:02
  we're talking about the all blacks game through Drafton. They can still win the bled is low,
• 21:06
  they can still win the rugby championship and what then? Then it's fine again. So, yeah,
• 21:15
  Victor, I don't think it's fine again. I think that sometimes when you win, it can cover over
• 21:24
  the cracks and that's what I'm hoping this week's light for the all blacks that some of those
• 21:29
  cracks might be quite deep and they fill them up. You know, I think winning sometimes is not a good
• 21:35
  thing if there's things going off the track, you know, because it just goes, oh, you're all good
• 21:39
  again. Like, you know, the high ball, the high ball, the loss against Argentina, did we see some
• 21:46
  aspects of that again and the second half against South Africa? Yes, we did. So that's what I'm talking
• 21:51
  about about doing a real deep dive right now. This is the adversity we need to come through and we
• 21:57
  shouldn't see some of those eras again. So sometimes I think winning, although there's no way I
• 22:01
  want to lose, we just got to take that 40 minutes against South Africa as like, you know, really,
• 22:07
  really important moment. We're talking about the importance of learning from your losses, the black
• 22:13
  fans, you know, that we just expect them to win World Cup because that's what they do and now they're
• 22:19
  not even in the final. Yeah, I mean, I think the games, the games that I watched and then the
• 22:27
  Canada were very good, right? But this particular black fan side, if you analyse it, they actually
• 22:34
  haven't started well all tournament. They've actually been slow starters. I mean, Japan scored
• 22:39
  against them early. They're up like, I don't know, 10 nil or whatever it was. And that really
• 22:44
  cost them against Canada. That Canadian sides are very, very good side. They've beaten us a couple
• 22:49
  of times in the last two years. I think there was some really interesting things going on with the
• 22:54
  black fans and I think they'll do a great review. But if you're a rugby, if you're a rugby fan,
• 23:01
  it's a little bit victor. It's a little bit like the, you know, this conversation we're having.
• 23:06
  You know, the female game has come on leaps and bounds. I mean, you know, I think the last
• 23:11
  World Cup that we won was the closest ever and then this one now is even closer. So I don't think
• 23:18
  we deserve to go into the final and I think the two finalists are those two teams that actually
• 23:22
  deserve to be there and we'll just have to regroup, you know. We need to really look at what we're
• 23:30
  doing at World Cups because, you know, we've, the all blacks have lost one now and now the black
• 23:34
  fans have lost. So we need to take a good look at our high performance way. And the Canadian stories
• 23:39
  are great story. I mean, they basically crowdfunded to get the team to the World Cup. You know,
• 23:44
  they got people to put money into the coffers to get them there and played some of the best rugby
• 23:50
  that any teams played this year. I mean, are you seeing more awakening of women's rugby in South
• 23:57
  Africa because of this World Cup victor? Yeah, definitely. I think it's the most they've been
• 24:04
  spoken about women's rugby in South Africa. I said it before the World Cup but it's not a big
• 24:11
  game in South Africa yet. But all of a sudden there was focus. I mean, Canada, over year before the
• 24:19
  World Cup, they played three test matches and Michael said they had a very good side. I mean,
• 24:24
  we couldn't live with them. They gave us 50 every week. Against that New Zealand B side,
• 24:30
  we got the win and then in the quarterfinals, I think, for the first half. We were very competitive
• 24:36
  but Canada's a fantastic team. And yeah, for South Africa, we need to look at our ground level.
• 24:42
  If you really want to make it successful, all our sports that do well, we've got a very strong
• 24:50
  school system with that. At this stage, we don't play rugby at school level or women's rugby in
• 24:56
  South Africa. So that's maybe something that we need to look at to make it bigger, to almost grow
• 25:02
  that love for the game. So in South Africa, we're still very conservative and still a lot of people
• 25:08
  that worry if girls should play rugby. But yeah, I think there was a lot of attention on these girls
• 25:16
  and I mean, when they made that quarterfinal, the celebration, the emotion, I think that will
• 25:22
  get a lot of calls to think less. What's going to happen in the final JK, England versus Canada?
• 25:31
  I think that England would have preferred to play New Zealand because the motivation will be
• 25:36
  massive because of the last World Cup. I think consistency, I'd be like, it'd start to be a real
• 25:43
  issue if England don't win this next final. I think they've got the better side. I think
• 25:50
  that they've got the motivation. They lost the last World Cup. So I think they'll have home
• 25:59
  you know, home ground advantage. I think they have motivation through the roof because they should
• 26:04
  have won the last one. And I just think they've got a little bit too much class across the park.
• 26:09
  So England would... I'm picking Canada. I don't underestimate them. I think
• 26:15
  you know, and I'm probably going to be wrong as normal, but I would just love to see Canada be
• 26:21
  one of the great rugby stories of the year. But my car, Argentina, being in South Africa and
• 26:25
  Durban. And you can see it coming out. The Covid is getting to your playing corner.
• 26:35
  Talking about great rugby stories. How about that? Carry a cup final.
• 26:39
  Yeah, unbelievable. I mean, I'm an old Greek. I've played here for two years after mine
• 26:46
  in 21 days. And we were lucky also to get to a semi-final, but couldn't make it further.
• 26:52
  They haven't won the carry cup since 1970 and to see them to come out at Ellis Park and beat
• 27:00
  the Lions to play the fool. You are a seed team. I mean, they don't even have quarter of the budget
• 27:05
  of the Lions. And to come out to perform like that. And again, we just showed...
• 27:12
  So there are things we need, but no one gives them opportunity. Backs against the wall,
• 27:17
  they just stand up. And that Greek walk back was unbelievable. So stood up physically,
• 27:22
  they dominated the Lions. And yeah, problems for the Lions again. They've been struggling for the
• 27:28
  last few years. They're always our worst team in the URC. And I think someone needs to
• 27:36
  have a look at what's happening there as well. It's just a reminder though. It was an amazing
• 27:41
  game. One in the last minute. Another amazing game in New Zealand for Otago to win the Rampoli
• 27:47
  Shield. Just how special things like the carry cup are and the Rampoli Shield to our nations?
• 27:53
  Yeah, I've got a question for you, Victor. Is the carry cup getting more important now
• 28:02
  that there's no super rugby or is URC taking that over?
• 28:06
  No, URC has taken over. So unfortunately, look, we love carry cup until the Africa, but unfortunately,
• 28:14
  at this moment, it's a more like a development competition. If you look at the bulls, the sharks,
• 28:21
  and the stormers, they haven't played the URC players in the competition. So they've played all the
• 28:27
  youngsters to give them opportunity. So most of the teams are almost like 123 teams for the big
• 28:35
  clubs. The bulls and the stormers and the sharks did play the last game, but they were already out
• 28:41
  of the semi-finals. They played the URC teams just almost for a warmer for the URC that starts
• 28:48
  this weekend. So yeah, unfortunately, it's not quite up there. It's like it wasn't the old days.
• 28:55
  We had all the spring box everyone playing the carry cup. So I'll say the development
• 29:00
  competition. We give our youngsters opportunity. They get out there. But I mean, when it gets to
• 29:06
  semi-finals finals, there's always excitement around it because it stays the carry cup.
• 29:12
  Did you win it? I won a three times recorder, and then I missed out a few because
• 29:19
  with the spring box we didn't play. So yeah, we won it with the bulls five times in my time there.
• 29:26
  And just getting back to the second part of that question, Ricardo, like the Ranfully Shield,
• 29:31
  was one of the most amazing shields I played for. It brought out the best,
• 29:37
  an asset brought out the best in the opposition, and they were just epic encounters. I mean,
• 29:43
  to win it was named the game of the century, and when we lost it to Waikato, it was one of worst days
• 29:50
  of my life. So I think moving around a lot, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know,
• 30:00
  it's probably changed hands three or four times this year already, hasn't it? But it does bring out
• 30:05
  the best. And this is when we get back to tribalism and traditionalism. And I've said this
• 30:10
  are 100 million times before. I don't think the franchise model works in New Zealand. I think
• 30:19
  tribalism and traditionalism does. I mean, you won't know this Victor, but back in the day,
• 30:25
  our two provinces split. So we had a whole Auckland region and then North Harbour split.
• 30:31
  We just have the Battle of the Bridge. It was like an epic encounter, you know? And I just think
• 30:36
  that with the South Africans leaving Super Rugby, we need to get back to like an NRL format and bring
• 30:43
  back the Ranfully Shield into that environment, bring back the Battle of the Bridge, you know,
• 30:48
  bring back all these tribal and traditional moments where you support your local team.
• 30:54
  Some people say that that horse is already bolted. Victor, they say, oh, no, that's true.
• 31:00
  But, you know, one, South Africa left. I don't think Super Rugby's been the same. And we've
• 31:04
  got to have the courage to change to stay competitive with you guys.
• 31:09
  That's actually interesting. We had the same problem in South Africa. I don't know if you remember
• 31:13
  was super active. We also went to almost the franchises, the cats and where the cats were,
• 31:18
  Screqueurs, Free State and the Lions together. And the stormers were bull on SWD and the bulls
• 31:25
  were the Puma, the felcons. And that didn't work because there's no identity. So then we went back
• 31:31
  to know let the bulls have their own franchise, let the Lions have. And they can go bull guys if
• 31:37
  they want to and Super Rugby. But, yeah, that belonging to something have a little culture around
• 31:44
  the team. No, these certain Dolby's that will always be bigger than others. I think you need that
• 31:50
  in rugby. Yeah, I don't, I don't think Ricardo and I don't know if this has done my
• 31:55
  dear, but I don't think we need to change back to Auckland. If we want to stay, if the five
• 31:58
  franchises want to stay as their franchise, they just can't pull from the other parts of the
• 32:04
  franchise because Tasman might, I think it's a top eight competition with four or five from
• 32:09
  Australia, like a manly, you know, a ran-work, a brothers from, you know, and you have someone,
• 32:17
  a team from Perth, and we just played like an NRL. So, you know, you don't have to dismantle them
• 32:22
  completely if you think that you still want to keep the bulls, but I think we should go back to.
• 32:28
  So, so the one thing in the rugby that I've, I've said it in South Africa right this
• 32:32
  while we are, I think we're not getting it right. Let's just say, listen, these are the four
• 32:37
  teams that play in your SEO. This is the four teams that play in the super rugby back in the day.
• 32:42
  If you look at the French clubs, and that's why people will invest money into it,
• 32:47
  you need private money if you want to grow the game. And if a team can't go and can play at the
• 32:53
  highest level, why will anyone invest in it? Because there's no returns for whatever wants to
• 32:57
  put money into it. And if you look at the French league, I mean, I was part of it.
• 33:02
  Myself, George Krieg and Anton Oliver, we went over to go play for Toulot in the second
• 33:08
  division. We brought them up, and then they won the Heineken Cup three times. But if they weren't
• 33:13
  allowed to, and it was just the loose LaRouchelle claimant that we're allowed to play in the Heineken
• 33:20
  Cup, no one will invest in the other teams. So, I think that's something in the southern hemisphere
• 33:26
  where we can go back to, let's get our unions, let's get our teams that we,
• 33:32
  these tradition with. But if someone has spent money, pay, get them to have promotion
• 33:37
  relegation and let them play at the highest level. I think you'll see much more money invested
• 33:43
  indirectly. Ricardo, you know this because you're a TV guy. Wasn't it about the TV rights when
• 33:50
  South Africa were in? And didn't we, didn't we piss them off when during COVID ended to say good
• 33:57
  by? You're dead. You want to share the income with us. And we're like 80% of super rugby.
• 34:03
  Super rugby was put together in the space of about four or five days at the end of the 95 World Cup,
• 34:09
  you know, where like I was part of the management of that all black team and we called a press conference
• 34:14
  on the Thursday. No one showed up because Louis late told everyone that rugby had gone professional.
• 34:19
  No one knew it was coming. It happened that quickly. And so, you know, rugby is still a relatively
• 34:26
  young game as a professional sport compared to a lot of other professional sports. And we're going
• 34:31
  to, we need to keep evolving and changing and learning and stuff. But you know, my biggest concern
• 34:36
  about the whole thing. The only thing we evolve and change too much of the rules, what Victor and I
• 34:41
  talk about is we need to, we need to evolve actually how our games played. Yeah, but there's a
• 34:48
  much bigger concern for me and that's Victor playing pickleball. What's that about? Yeah, pickleball.
• 34:55
  Is that what it was? It was a paddle. It's a paddle. It's huge in South Africa. And me and my
• 35:04
  11 year old beat my wife and our 16 year old. So we were very happy last night. That's not a wise move
• 35:10
  though, Victor. That's not, not a wise move, which is why you're sleeping in your office now.
• 35:16
  And on Sunday, I was going to send you actually a video because Sunday I, I had sausage day.
• 35:25
  So I had my friend to make sausages. But we don't make it. And did you try the brandy this South African
• 35:30
  way, not the konya coin? Not yet. Not yet. I'm going to do that. But I just, I just remind him
• 35:35
  a theft that we didn't make a South African sausage. What do you call them? War wars. What do you call them?
• 35:39
  War wars.
• 35:40
  War wars. You know, we didn't have this.
• 35:45
  All right. Well, hopefully, like, if all things go well, both of you are smiling next week.
• 35:50
  Otherwise, I'm just going to have to find an Argentinian and an Australian to come on the show with me.
• 35:54
  And maybe you guys decide.
• 35:56
  Rekata, have you worked out what happens if South Africa and
• 36:01
  New Zealand, when both their games have come down to bonus points?
• 36:05
  I made it. You just asked me because I got schoolsy mats. I haven't worked it out. No, I haven't.
• 36:10
  You did, too. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much. And all the best to both sides.
• 36:15
  And to Australian Argentinian viewers, listeners.
• 36:20
  I'll try to thank you very much. I'm going to New Zealand this whole this week. You see?
• 36:24
  Exactly. I'll try the brandy Victor, but I can't find a half a litre cup.
• 36:28
  We need to get those half a litre cup.
• 36:33
  That's a normal Friday afternoon bright club ace cups.
• 36:38
  Okay, but we do better. We're a bit about it.
• 36:40
  We're going to do some South Africa to do the prize, mate. That's the next competition.
• 36:44
  We've got the big two in next year. We'll get you over. I'll show you all the Coltian. So that's okay.
• 36:50
  Beautiful. Can't wait.