Latest / Recovering Out Loud / From Fentanyl Addict to Recovery Rapper: Benjamin Lerner

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From Fentanyl Addict to Recovery Rapper: Benjamin Lerner · Recovering Out Loud

0:01
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
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Podcast, the show where we get real about addiction and mental
0:08
health recovery. I'm so glad you're here.
0:11
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
0:13
alcohol, please reach out to me on any social media platform at
0:18
Recovering Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at
0:22
recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com. Enjoy the show.
0:44
By the way, do you go by Ben? You can save the syllables if
0:47
you want. I'm actually Benjamin Lerner
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because there's like a poet, like he's a pretty big cheese.
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His name's Ben Lerner. Like Pulitzer Prizes and all
0:55
that. So I do the Benjamin for my
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platform so to not step on his stuff.
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But you can call me Ben if you want.
1:01
It's all good. It's funny, when I was I was
1:03
Googling you and looking up more of of your songs today, which
1:06
are great by the way. I really appreciate recovery
1:09
rap. The I know you don't get
1:10
offended by that, but like, Nah. I celebrate it.
1:13
Yeah, it's not really a thing, right?
1:15
Like I haven't really found it other than you and it's what
1:17
you're doing is amazing, man. I truly, I love the music it
1:20
like I vibe to in my car. It's not just good lyrics, it's
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actually I I vibe to it. You know, it's, it's good music,
1:26
man, So keep doing. My day love.
1:28
Thank you. I love it.
1:30
But yeah, Ben, thanks so much for coming down, man.
1:32
But yeah, to to touch on my earlier point, when I, when I
1:36
googled your name, what I was getting at is that guy came up
1:38
that poet and I was like, well, you're basically a poet, so.
1:41
You know, it's really cool. Like I've read his stuff.
1:43
It's very interesting, it's very scholarly, it's very powerful.
1:49
But me and my producer, we wanted to make it clear that
1:51
like, you know, it's, it's a different thing.
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So we did the full name and but if you want to call me Ben, I,
1:56
my nickname's skinny, you can just call me random real beanie
2:01
hat man. Like that's what some people
2:03
will say in other comments. They're like, oh, like I follow
2:06
you and the long haired guy with the hat and I'm like, that's me
2:09
long hair hat guys. So whatever works.
2:13
But you, you know, you, you probably, I'm going to assume
2:16
this because I haven't met you before recovery, but you
2:19
probably didn't always look this good.
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You'll probably always didn't look healthy.
2:22
You're, you know, no stranger to opiates and and drugs.
2:26
And you talk about that openly. That's a huge problem right now
2:31
in North America, especially in the United States.
2:33
And you're from Vermont. So why don't you talk about a
2:37
little bit about your story and how you came into recovery?
2:40
Yeah, so the forgive my cheesy millennial reference, but the
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SparkNotes version used to be the site where you could like
2:49
instead of reading a book before ChatGPT and grok and all that,
2:52
you could like Google the the SparkNotes short book to pass
2:56
your test. So the SparkNotes version is I
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do live in Vermont now, but if my atrocious Mid-Atlantic accent
3:02
isn't enough of a giveaway, I wasn't born this close to the
3:05
northern border. I was born and raised in
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Washington DC. I'm the son of 2 Ivy League
3:10
educated journalists. I'm not a billionaire, you know,
3:13
but I have a little bit of a history of privilege in my
3:16
family. My great grandfather was a
3:19
Russian immigrant born American composer named Irving Berlin.
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He wrote God Bless America, White Christmas and I'm not
3:25
saying that to flex like any family ancestry just to give
3:29
context that addiction doesn't discriminate in terms of like
3:32
where you come from. I know people from the projects
3:35
and trailer parks who now own $1,000,000 businesses because
3:38
they got their life right in recovery.
3:40
And I know people who grew up in houses that dwarfed my nice
3:43
suburban house growing up and all it got him is a nicer box
3:46
when the fentanyl took him out. But you know, the best way I can
3:49
describe it is that I was an alcoholic and addict before I
3:52
ever took my first drink because I was always fixated on an
3:56
external solution to help me navigate or just kind of kick
4:00
the metaphoric can down the road of my internal problems.
4:04
And before, you know, the drink ever hit my mouth or the needle
4:08
ever hit my van, I found solace and temporary gratification
4:12
through approval from other people.
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You know, for other shameless millennial references, it was
4:17
Pogs, Pokémon cards, Digimon cards, N64 and PlayStation games
4:22
just fixated on collecting things, collecting approval and
4:25
attaboys from other people. And so by the time like, you
4:29
know, I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the
4:33
time they called it Asperger's early on.
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So I had these kind of like hyper fixations, which kind of
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primed the pump for the self soothing, self stemming stuff
4:42
that, you know, I had little sips of alcohol here and there.
4:45
But when I was 13 years old, even though I had a sip of wine,
4:49
sip of beer at my parents dinner party or sneaking out of the
4:51
fridge out of curiosity, I don't consider those my first drinks
4:54
or first use because I didn't know what it was doing for me.
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I consider my first drink when I knew the effect that alcohol
5:01
gave me because it made me feel a little euphoric.
5:04
And then I consciously sought that out.
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And that was when I was like 1314.
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I don't really remember the age, it was like 7th or 8th grade.
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But I'll never forget the day because I was over at my
5:14
friend's house, like playing video games as a sleepover.
5:17
And we got the brilliant idea that we were going to steal
5:19
liquor from his parents cabinet. But the bottles were too far
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down. And I think they might even been
5:24
marked because he had an older sister in high school and his
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parents were trying to like make sure she didn't do that.
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But we found this musty, disgusting 6 pack of Sam Adams
5:34
in the basement and it had like mold and cobwebs on the on the
5:38
like tops of the bottles. And we both popped one and he
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took one sip and he practically spat it out.
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I was like, this is disgusting. But me being an alcoholic, I
5:47
down that lukewarm moldy beer. And it was like when you go on
5:51
an airplane and your ears pop. It was like just the whole
5:57
weight anxiety, like self-centered fear just
6:00
immediately evaporated. But it came at a price, and the
6:03
price is that over the next 10 years, over my active use, it
6:08
escalated very quickly. And it went from suburban things
6:13
like me showing up late to a piano recital or a track meet,
6:17
to me crashing my car, dropping out of school, escalating from
6:22
drinking and cannabis to coke, Molly, and then eventually
6:26
crossing every line I thought I wouldn't cross.
6:29
You know, I had all these delusions because I went to
6:31
private school. I grew up in a certain way that
6:34
like, because the surroundings were glamorous, I was slowly
6:37
desensitized into escalating my use and honestly trying to
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emulate this fake persona I did. Because it wasn't just that.
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Like I was numbing and mollifying my internal anxiety
6:51
through the chemicals that actually became my identity
6:54
because there's an awkward lanky autistic kid.
6:58
I was insecure and I didn't think people wanted me to be
7:01
part of their community. And part of that was delusional
7:03
self hatred, but part of it was also just anxiety and like an
7:07
identity crisis about not knowing who I was.
7:10
But when I had the beer and the and the bag of weed in my hand,
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I didn't wasn't just able to change consciousness.
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I was able to be that guy that it was a material extension of
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my worth. So it was 2 problems.
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First and foremost was me self medicating, but second was that
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I didn't know who I was without the props of having like the
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bottle and the bag in my hand. The same way people wouldn't
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want to hang out with me as a sleepover when I was young.
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So I'd bring the game cube games or the PlayStation two games and
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they wouldn't want to hang out with me.
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But I'd have that. So the party favors became that.
7:43
And, you know, I stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from my
7:46
family and I crashed my car after a six month long vendor
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stealing my college fund money and lying to my friends saying I
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was this suburban, you know, Uptown trap star when really I
7:58
was sneaking into my mom's purse to steal checks.
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But it all came to a crashing halt when I slammed my car
8:05
hydroplaning into three other cars when I was 20 years old in
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2012. But when the cops pulled up in
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this whole scene, carnage wrecked cars.
8:13
Thank God nobody was hurt. The only thing I cared about was
8:18
when they put the cuffs on me and breathalyzed me because I
8:21
was hungover and kind of still drunk.
8:23
It wasn't. Is anybody else OK?
8:25
Like my parents were going to find out I stole like a couple
8:28
100 grand from them. It's like I'm not going to be
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able to drink and use the day. That's all I cared about.
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I was a selfish, just self-destructive person.
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And then at that point, the only line I thought I wouldn't cross
8:41
was like prescriptions because, you know, I, I was like snorting
8:45
a ball Coke a day. I was drinking 1/5 of whiskey,
8:48
but I was an Uptown Coke dealer. I was a high bottom, low bottom
8:53
alcoholic. But once I got prescribed perks
8:56
for my dental surgery, you know, that little moment of the pop in
9:00
the decompression with the beer in my friend's basement was
9:03
magnified 100 times. And alcohol is a very blunt and
9:07
crude instrument. It activates a lot of different
9:10
neurotransmitter sites. But that opioids, that endorphin
9:13
and that dopamine, it just took me, man.
9:17
And it wasn't suburban anymore. After that.
9:19
I went days without eating, pawning everything that I had,
9:23
going down to the Tenderloin out in San Francisco where I had re
9:26
enrolled in art school because my family wanted me to succeed.
9:30
And all the fantasies I had of being this like suburban
9:34
Scarface character turned real quick into something a lot less
9:38
glamorous than me. Crossing every line, smoking
9:41
roxies off of foil, shooting dope, you know, shooting
9:45
fentanyl, smoking crack, picking cigarettes out the gutter Lance
9:49
and abscesses with blunt needles, passing out in movie
9:53
theaters. I never got Narcan, but I would
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wake up blue in the face, my whole body falling asleep
9:58
tingling, security guards shaking me awake, passing out on
10:01
my friends couches, them trying to revive me.
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And all that said, I still justified all those escalating
10:08
consequences by the fact that at that point, The funny thing is
10:13
my parents at this point were sending me in and out of rehab.
10:16
You know, staging interventions of a small magnitude.
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But the sad thing is they only thought that I was high when I
10:23
was in withdrawal because I was agitated, I was sweating, and I
10:27
was all like the stereotypes of an addict when I didn't have my
10:31
dope. But when I did, I was kind.
10:33
I was courteous. I was stealing from them, but to
10:35
the face. I was very well adjusted.
10:38
And so they would only ever confront me when I was dope
10:41
sick. And they would try to get me to
10:42
go to treatment. And I'd agree just to placate
10:45
him. But I didn't really want to get
10:46
sober, you know, having a seizure with my father at the
10:49
hospital bed out Frisco and them having to load me up with Ativan
10:53
to stop a dyskinetic seizure. Me biting my tongue and like
10:57
asphyxiating and all that didn't do it.
10:59
Friends dying didn't do it. Crashing my car didn't do it.
11:02
What made me want to get sober is when I got went up to New
11:05
York and I copped a bundle of fetty laced dope and I shot 3
11:09
bags and I didn't get high. I got physically high, but I
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didn't get spiritually or emotionally high.
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And that was scary to me because all consequences aside, I still
11:21
live with the delusion that an external chemical solution could
11:24
solve my problem. But that's the point that I went
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to treatment and I called the treatment center with the needle
11:31
in my arm. I had been to inpatient before,
11:34
outpatient countless times, but just to placate other people.
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But when it got to the point that I had hit a wall, like when
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you're slamming multiple bags of Fetty Lays Dope and like Chief
11:43
and grabs a crack, like within an hour, like there's no further
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escalation that you can go from that.
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So I had to seek out another solution.
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And that's the point. I was finally beaten into a
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state of reason and I went there for myself.
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And that day was June 13th, 2016.
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And by the grace of God or whatever word or understanding
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works for y'all, whatever you want to call it, it's all the
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same to me. I've been clean sober ever
12:08
since. Amazing, man.
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That's that's I resonated with a lot there.
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I I truly, you know, I hadn't thought about this in a while,
12:17
but yeah, it's like I got to a point where the drugs stopped
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working, right? They stopped providing their
12:23
purpose, which was, you said it perfectly, using outside things.
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I'm paraphrasing, but using outside things to fix my
12:28
insides, whether it's love from you, you know, Attaboys.
12:32
That was a big one for me, like noticing me, you know, loving
12:36
me, whatever that looked like. And you know, it, It wasn't
12:40
until because, yeah, I, I went to treatment.
12:43
I've been to three. And every time I went there, it
12:46
was for my parents, for my wife, just to get them off my back,
12:50
Right. And I knew I had a problem, but
12:52
I wasn't going for myself. It wasn't until I really stayed
12:55
and did the work and started taking some direction from
12:57
people. Or it's like, Anthony, maybe
12:59
your way is not not the right way.
13:01
Maybe you're maybe you're wrong about how to get sober.
13:03
Maybe you're wrong about a lot of things and that open
13:06
mindedness and willingness to kind of like, actually, you
13:10
know, I need to do this for myself because I'm going to die
13:12
and I, I'm not happy, right? The drugs, like there is no more
13:16
solution anymore to my problem because the drugs and alcohol
13:18
stopped working. Was there a moment in that
13:22
treatment center, that final one where, where you kind of flipped
13:26
to do it for yourself? Like, do you remember what that
13:29
moment looked like where you you said I'm going to do this thing
13:31
for real now? Yeah.
13:34
So before I left, I knew that I wanted to do it for myself, but
13:44
when I got there, I made a stupid decision, which is
13:49
addiction transfer separate from chemicals.
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I fully believe and regardless of if you run out of dope, but
13:56
there's like a liquor store, even if liquor ain't your thing
13:59
like I knew sometimes like to fend off the shakes or the
14:02
seizures like off benzos or dope, even though that was my
14:05
thing. I didn't even like drinking at
14:07
the end I would go grab 1/5 of whiskey and just start chugging
14:10
it even if it made me sick just to do something else.
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And so in treatment, there were no substances, but there were
14:16
people. And so I selfishly made the move
14:18
of attaching myself to another person hooking up with her.
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And she was going through a lot of stuff too.
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She had was like a really cool person, but like I selfishly
14:27
took her being interested in me because we were both broken
14:30
people looking for a distraction and I made her my new addiction
14:34
and we only hooked up once. But like I attached my whole
14:37
identity and recovery on to another person.
14:40
And so when she stopped talking to me because someone spread
14:42
like a rumor that I had like an STD out of out of whatever, like
14:47
rehab drama or whatever, I packed my bags and I wanted to
14:50
leave because at that point I had detoxed.
14:53
I was chemically sober. I kicked like they did a three
14:55
day Suboxone taper. It was excruciating.
14:57
I was throwing up, sweating, like knotting out, not even from
15:01
being high, just being like my whole neurotransmitters were
15:03
depleted. It was, it was agony, but I got
15:06
through that. But poetically, when I got
15:09
through that is when she stopped talking to me and I had a detox
15:12
process emotionally and spiritually that even though it
15:15
wasn't as physically painful, was like I was really alone and
15:18
with myself. I didn't have an external thing
15:21
that I could. And so I called my family and I
15:24
was like, I can't do this. And it wasn't about the chemical
15:27
detox. It was about the spiritual and
15:28
emotional detox. And so I was sitting in the
15:32
room. I had called a cab.
15:34
I had conned my family into saying I'm going to go to
15:36
another treatment center. But really what I was planning
15:39
to do was the commuter train from Lancaster County,
15:43
Pennsylvania to Philadelphia. I was going to.
15:47
I said I was going to take a train to Philly from Lancaster
15:50
and then back to DC to go to treatment and like me and my
15:55
family there. But what I was really going to
15:56
do is go to Kensington and Philly and take the 300 they
15:59
sent me for a train ticket and like go cop a couple bundles and
16:02
check out because a lot of kids there were Kenzo Kensington kids
16:06
and they told me about the blocks to go to and everything.
16:08
And that was my plan. I, it wasn't necessarily
16:11
suicidal, but I was just like, whatever happens, happens.
16:14
Like I'm going to Kensington, I'm buying a bunch of bags.
16:16
I know my tolerance is low and if I because I knew I couldn't
16:20
keep using because eventually it was going to get to the point it
16:23
didn't work and and I thought I couldn't live life sober.
16:26
So I'm sitting in this room with this counselor and she's giving
16:29
me this whole half litted like I'm like, I'm going to another
16:33
treatment center. This isn't just the right fit
16:35
for me, like, but she's just like, yeah, tell me more.
16:38
Like I'm the first person who's ever against mental medical
16:41
advice left. But then I see a mirror right?
16:44
It might not even bend like a mirror.
16:45
It might have been like like a metallic surface or something.
16:48
But I saw my reflection clear as day.
16:51
And at the time I had scabs from picking off of the itching from
16:54
the opioids and like standing up for multiple days smoking crack.
16:58
I had bags under my eyes even though I was 24.
17:00
I'm 33 now. Make these look like nothing.
17:02
It was it was bad. I look like a 40 year old career
17:05
hardened addict. I scruffy beard like shaggy from
17:08
scooby-doo. I wasn't looking good, but
17:11
funnily enough, when I looked at myself there, I didn't see me.
17:16
Then I saw the same scared, insecure child that used to hide
17:22
under the table with my hands over my ears as an autistic 4
17:25
year old and the Toys-R-Us because the whole world felt
17:27
like it was screaming at me. The kid whose parents got
17:30
divorced, The kid who had that beer in the basement.
17:33
And then it kind of all flashed and I saw like, it's going to
17:39
take more work for me to keep running from this than it is for
17:43
me to run towards the truth in the pan.
17:46
And I'm. And it was not just literally
17:47
running like taking the cab and going to Kensington.
17:49
I'm like, no, it's not even the drugs.
17:52
It's not even anything like that.
17:53
It's like you're afraid of your reflection.
17:56
It's not the withdrawal. It's not romantic
17:58
disappointment. Like, yeah, all that's powerful,
18:00
but you're afraid of yourself. And no matter where you go, even
18:05
if you pass away, like you are going to be there, like, it's
18:08
still going to be you. So you have to face this.
18:11
And so I canceled the cab. And after that, I didn't just,
18:15
it wasn't just about like chemical sobriety, like
18:19
beautiful things happen in there.
18:20
Like the day I decided to stay, the person who had been running
18:24
like the cafeteria program, like they appoint certain people, you
18:28
know, in the center who are, who are patients to like serve food
18:31
to people and wake up at 6:00 AM instead of seven or eight to
18:35
like go and like help serve the food, cook the food, plate the
18:38
food. And, and, and I started doing
18:40
that breakfast, lunch and dinner whenever they let me.
18:43
I started allowing myself to be of service, not just like in any
18:47
recovery group or anything, because yeah, they had groups
18:49
and stuff, but it was just like, can I help clean?
18:51
Can I help do this? And I found that by getting out
18:54
of myself in the beginning, it was a distraction, but it but it
18:57
was a sense of purpose bigger than just staying sober, like
19:01
finding ways to apply principles of recovery towards my life.
19:05
And so I think that's the moment where I'm not going to say I got
19:09
everything because there were a lot of experiences I had after
19:13
that where whether it was relationships or personal
19:15
setbacks, like I wanted to use, I wanted to give it up, where a
19:19
series of serendipitous miracles put me towards people who helped
19:23
me through it. When I fell, even though I
19:25
didn't go back to using, like I came close.
19:27
But that was the first moment where I had an epiphany that it
19:31
was up to me to do the work. And more than that, that it was
19:33
a privilege to do that because the life I would be afforded by
19:36
doing that work was better than what the bag could give me.
19:40
Yeah. Oh man, I love that.
19:44
And I, I couldn't help but laugh there because I, I, I hadn't
19:47
talked to somebody yet that I did the exact same thing.
19:51
I, I, I was fed up with the treatment center I was in, you
19:54
know, this past January and they weren't doing things my way,
19:58
right? Like they weren't, you know,
19:59
their things weren't going according to Anthony's plan.
20:02
And I was like, I've been to two treatment centers that were
20:05
better than this one and you know, don't you know, I, you
20:07
know, trying to run the whole place, right?
20:09
You know the. The actor that they talk about
20:12
and, you know, trying to be the. Sorry, the director and the
20:14
actor trying to do everything, arrange the lights right, sweep
20:17
the floor. I was trying to be that guy.
20:19
And don't you know, you're not living according to Anthony's
20:22
plan. And, you know, it's not.
20:23
It could be better here. And I had the exact same
20:26
situation where I sat down with a counsellor and he just looked
20:28
at me and he was doing the whole like, yeah, you're going to go
20:31
to another treatment center, a better one.
20:33
Yeah. Is that that's what you're going
20:34
to do? OK.
20:34
He wasn't saying that, but he was clearly, you know,
20:37
communicating it with his face. And I actually did end up
20:40
leaving that treatment center. And I'll never forget this.
20:43
I, I went home, I started looking for another treatment
20:45
center and I called my therapy. I don't know why.
20:50
And again, This is why I believe in God's spirituality, higher
20:53
power, whatever you want to call it.
20:54
Like you said, something, something came in, a thought
20:57
came into my head, much like what happened with you, where I
21:00
had this kind of epiphany where I was like my therapist is, is
21:03
in sobriety and recovery. And she, I just had this thought
21:07
to, to FaceTime her. I don't know why, you know, I
21:10
hadn't thought about her in a while.
21:11
And I Facetimed her and I told her my plan, my idea, right?
21:14
And, and this is, I found this to be so helpful in recovery
21:17
today. I always, I always try to tell
21:20
people that this is what helps me the most is reaching out and
21:22
like sharing your, your ideas with people.
21:25
Like here's my plan, here's what I could do because I didn't do
21:27
that when I relapsed after eight years.
21:29
That's what took me out was having this plan to and for me
21:33
it was getting into performance enhancing drugs, right, not mind
21:36
altering, not, you know, all this like, you know, BS in my
21:39
head that I was spinning this justification.
21:41
I can get a prescription from a doctor, so it's all good.
21:44
I didn't, I wasn't telling people about my plans and that's
21:46
what ultimately took me back out, right?
21:48
I didn't run things by people. I I just acted on my will and my
21:52
and that's what got me in here in the 1st place.
21:54
I forgot that I forgot that that's what got me into the
21:57
hotel rooms by myself, you know, smoking meth, snoring, whatever
22:01
the hell I was doing with people I shouldn't have been around.
22:04
I wasn't telling people my ideas, my plan.
22:06
So this time I called her and she right away, she listened to
22:10
me and she just goes, Anthony, like, you know, you have to go
22:12
back to that treatment center, right?
22:14
You got, and she said it in a not so nice way, But I, you
22:16
know, she knows me by now. I need that tough love, right?
22:19
You need to get your effing ass back there.
22:21
And I, I thought about it. I prayed about it, because
22:24
that's what I was taught to do, right?
22:26
I, I, I asked for help and I went back.
22:30
Then I called the treatment center and I said, hey, you
22:33
know, I made a mistake. I'm sorry.
22:34
Like I shouldn't have done that. And I apologize for my actions,
22:38
right? I kind of lost it on some people
22:40
too. I kept it pretty calm.
22:42
But can I come back? And they took me back that next
22:44
day, right? I went to a recovery group that
22:47
night. And funny enough, actually one
22:51
of the guys at that meeting that stood up and and talked, he
22:56
ended up coming into the treatment center that night that
23:00
I went back there and I saw him and I was like, holy, you know,
23:02
I did one of these where I just kind of looked up and I was
23:04
like, OK, you know, I get it. Like this is where I'm supposed
23:07
to be. Thanks, buddy.
23:09
And, you know, those moments happen in my life all the time.
23:12
I just have to notice them, right?
23:14
I have to, I have to notice these little God shots, God
23:16
winks, whatever you want to call them.
23:18
But yeah, it's not easy. It's.
23:20
And to your point, it's like life wasn't perfect after that,
23:23
but that I always think like if you had taken that train, if you
23:27
had acted on that, will you, you might not be sitting here today,
23:31
right? Like who knows, right?
23:32
We don't know. And that's the thing when we
23:33
pick up, like people are like, Oh, I know what's going to
23:35
happen. I'm going to I'm like, I don't
23:36
know, dude. Like I've I've never used a
23:39
needle. I have used a needle, but I
23:42
haven't used a needle to shoot opiates yet, right?
23:44
I always say that's like if I close this call today and go, I
23:48
always say this, if I close this and say bye to you and go back
23:50
out there and start drinking again, all bets are off dude.
23:53
Like I don't know what's going to happen next, right?
23:55
Because I'm an addict and an alcoholic and I 1 is too many
24:00
and thousands ever enough. I always want more.
24:02
I don't know how to stop. I don't have an off button so
24:05
it's not even worth testing it today, you know?
24:08
Yeah, of course. And you know, the addictive
24:11
impulse for me isn't necessarily just tied to a chemical.
24:15
I think that regardless of whether my relapse is chemical,
24:19
of course that's going to have the most devastating
24:21
consequences. It's going to reset the clock.
24:23
It's going to do all kinds of like internal neurological
24:25
damage. And you know, the way that I get
24:28
down, I'm probably going to be sitting under a stone.
24:31
But but separate from that, I think that regardless of what
24:34
phase and recovery you're at, and regardless of what delusions
24:38
get you back to that place of turning to whatever destructive
24:41
solution it is, I can completely destroy my life today in ways
24:45
that have nothing to do with chemicals.
24:47
I mean, I'm a father of two. I, I work a fairly demanding job
24:52
in addition to the content and like the other stuff that I do
24:54
and you know, I can just walk around salty and just
24:58
self-destructive all day. And, and it just like under the
25:01
surface, like there's some people who say all, all relapses
25:04
are premeditated and I think some are kind of spur of the
25:07
moment. But regardless of like the
25:09
amount of premeditation that goes into anything, there's
25:12
always something bubbling underneath the surface.
25:15
And so I still get cravings from time to time.
25:18
Over the past few years, it's gotten a little better in terms
25:20
of the chemical cravings. I don't know what it is.
25:22
Might just be that because like, you know, I'm working a lot and
25:25
I have kids. Like I don't really have time to
25:27
even like think that much about that.
25:29
But you know, in terms of in terms of the anger piece, in
25:33
terms of the resentment piece, in terms of like the
25:36
self-centered fear piece today, it's like, yeah, I might not be
25:39
going out there and drinking or using, but like the same
25:43
wreckage can happen real quick if I'm not willing to just take
25:46
the same action that I did in that treatment center in a
25:49
different way. Because the insidious thing
25:51
about it is I can think, well, I don't have a craving to use
25:54
today. So that must mean I'm doing
25:56
pretty well. That must mean I'm a pretty hot
25:58
potato man. And then I'll be like yelling at
26:01
my fiance in front of my kids, like storming out of the door
26:05
and just like doing all of this stuff.
26:08
And because I'm sober, I think, Oh yeah, well, you know, I got
26:11
I'm justified in this. But see, the sad thing about
26:14
that is that that can open the door for other things.
26:17
So for me today, it's like that same motivation always has to
26:21
be, like you say, ask for help. And the other day I was talking
26:25
to a person who's very near and dear to me in my recovery.
26:27
He's also a father of two. He's a little further along than
26:30
me. And he said something very
26:32
powerful because, you know, my whole house was a mess literally
26:36
because I hadn't been there taking care of my kids.
26:38
I've been selfish working a long time not being there.
26:41
And I tried to justify it. And I was tired as heck just
26:45
picking up all the toys, being salty that I had to do it.
26:49
And he's like, you know, it's one thing to trust that things
26:54
are going to be OK when it's not a mess.
26:57
It's another thing entirely to trust that the solution works
27:02
when you're in the process of picking up the wreckage.
27:04
And he's like, yeah, good for you.
27:06
You're nine years sober, one day at a time.
27:09
But it sounds like your life's still a mess.
27:11
And it sounds like maybe you have to have a little bit of the
27:14
same, even if it's forced and you have to just kind of blindly
27:19
do it and fake it till you make it.
27:20
Humility here because it sounds like even though you're not
27:23
using, you're you're hitting some jackpots and you're
27:27
destroying your life pretty good.
27:29
And that and that's a wake up call to me, man, because it's
27:31
like, yeah, I got a different life now.
27:35
Sure from the outside. And because I was never a
27:38
functional addict, I wasn't shout out to the people who can
27:42
do that, man. I was never that.
27:43
I couldn't hold down a job. You.
27:45
Know I'm not trying to glorify that, but I just couldn't do it.
27:49
And so all these things happen in my recovery.
27:51
And so I I think all these delusional things, but at the
27:55
end of the day, whether it's a drink, whether it's a shot of
27:58
dope, whether it's, you know, a line, a pill, whatever, that's
28:01
one piece. But then the next level is how
28:05
can I actually better my life? Not just in terms of the toys
28:08
and prizes and external elements, but keep myself
28:11
actually grounded and grateful so I can be present.
28:14
And so that's the battle I'm fighting now, man.
28:16
And it's one day at a time, just like recovery is.
28:18
Yeah man, it was well said yeah, I agree.
28:21
It's like, you know, just because I'm sober doesn't mean
28:23
my life is is good or perfect, right.
28:25
I I still have bottoms in recovery as as my friends remind
28:28
me what what does you mentioned gratitude there at the end.
28:34
What does like a, I get these gratitude cries every once in a
28:39
while where I just like, you know, it'll be a lot.
28:41
It happens a lot when I'm listening to music and I'll be
28:43
listening to a song and it'll remind me of a time, you know,
28:45
camping with my dad or something, or, you know, usually
28:49
classic rock because that's what we listen to a lot.
28:52
And I'll just have this moment where I'm just so grateful.
28:54
I start tearing up and I What does what does gratitude look
28:58
like to you when you're practicing a good, solid
29:00
recovery program? I'm going to say that one of the
29:05
most beautiful moments that I had, and I think this also goes
29:10
to show the strength of the overall recovery community, not
29:14
just for people in recovery, but also people who embrace and
29:17
promote recovery. I was on a business trip and I
29:22
was listening to one of my favorite artists that even
29:25
though he's not 100% sober, really goes out of his way to
29:28
represent for recovery. And he is in recovery from his
29:30
drug of choice, but he's not completely sober.
29:33
And some people give him Flack for that.
29:34
But that's kind of the whole point of where I'm going to get
29:36
to in this. And that's Jelly roll.
29:38
I was listening to, you know, what's it Chapel, all the like,
29:41
more spiritual songs like she and save Me and all that.
29:45
And I was like breaking down crying because again, you know,
29:47
I'm sober. I'm on this business trip with
29:50
this international nonprofit organization doing like content
29:53
consultation, like just wild stuff, hotel boardroom
29:58
conference dinners. It's like, dude, I used to, I
30:01
used to use the same needle like 20 * / a week.
30:05
Like, like, like what's what's good with this?
30:07
But I'm breaking down because I'm away from my family, I'm
30:10
away from my recovery resources and everybody on my team is very
30:13
supportive of my recovery. But, but I just don't have a
30:15
minute to myself. It's just work, work, work 3
30:17
hours of sleep every night because we're putting everything
30:19
together. And so I break down and start
30:21
crying, like you say, listening to this music.
30:23
And then I go home and that's the week that his new album
30:28
drops. And I'm trying to get back with
30:33
my family. I'm trying to like get back
30:36
right with myself, get back right with my recovery
30:39
community, balance my life out. And at this point, my youngest
30:44
son is like 9 months old. My older son is like 2 1/2
30:49
almost. And my they wake up at like 5-6
30:53
AM and I got a whole big day of work and we're out of eggs and
30:56
milk and my girl make some pancakes every morning and she's
30:59
like, you need to go to the store.
31:01
And I'm just angry is just beyond like salty just dragging
31:06
my feet to the car. And then I put on I'm like, oh,
31:10
the new Jelly roll album came out today.
31:12
So I put on the first song of it, which is winning streak.
31:15
And the songs and the song, the chorus is like, I was so afraid
31:19
to be in this seat till I met a man who was 20 years clean.
31:22
He said everybody here has felt the same defeat.
31:24
Nobody walks through these doors on a winning streak.
31:27
And it makes me cry just thinking about it, man.
31:31
Because I drove. I drove to the store and I was.
31:36
And that line played like the second chorus before I pulled up
31:39
in front of my house. And it had nothing to do with
31:41
getting sober, but I was so defeated and I was so
31:44
disappointed in myself and not being there for my family and
31:47
emotionally sober that when I walked through the door with
31:49
those eggs and that milk, I was just like, this is this is a
31:52
time for me to do this over. Like it had nothing to do with.
31:55
I was just like so disappointed in myself and what I was not
31:58
being there for my family. And it felt like I was walking
32:00
through the door of the treatment center again.
32:02
And I felt so inspired by that. Then I saw that people were like
32:08
making these videos hating on Jelly Roll.
32:10
Oh, he's not sober. Oh, he's a sellout.
32:12
Oh, he's Hollywood this and he's that.
32:14
And then as a person who is 9 years sober, hearing that song,
32:18
which had nothing to do with like a relapse, but just me
32:21
being so down in my recovery, feeling like I was so worthless.
32:24
I felt so seen and I felt so heard going through there.
32:27
So after I made-up with my kids and my girl and gave him a big
32:30
hug and apologized, broke down and started crying kind of like
32:33
I am now. I made AI made it real about
32:36
how, you know, this guy's doing amazing things, like, you know,
32:39
he's doing beautiful stuff for recovery.
32:41
We need to support all paths of recovery.
32:43
All this stuff. And I've thought nothing of it.
32:44
I went about my day and I put my phone down and I was really
32:47
trying to be there for my kids. And what ended up happening is
32:52
that Jelly Roll saw that post and on the day his album dropped
32:57
and he said to me, I'm crying right now in a comment on
33:03
TikTok. I feel seen and I feel hurt.
33:07
And the full circle moment thing about that man is I was at a
33:10
point where I was breaking down and I was, I was feeling like I
33:14
was worthless. And so this person who's
33:16
inspired me countless times doesn't know me, doesn't know my
33:20
story. He's got his own demons, his own
33:22
path to recovery, whatever. But the point is, regardless of
33:25
where you are, whether you're like, you know, a dad working
33:28
like, you know, a middle class job driving to get milk for his
33:31
kids, or you're a country star who's selling out arenas, when
33:35
we tell the truth and we leave the door open for self
33:38
improvement and emotional vulnerability, we can be seen
33:41
and we can be heard. So every single time that I feel
33:45
like I'm, I'm not grateful, I'm alone.
33:49
I'm down on myself and I feel like my recovery is trash and I
33:53
feel like I'm undeserving where I am.
33:55
I get that imposter syndrome. It's not about the cloud of that
33:58
post or anything. It was just a moment where I was
34:01
at my lowest and I put on a message separate from a song, a
34:04
message of recovery and hope and new beginnings.
34:07
And I realized that new beginning could happen for me.
34:10
And then seeing someone who I think, oh, he's selling out
34:13
arenas, millions of records like American Idol, Judge and all
34:15
that. But it's clear he was going
34:17
through some stuff on the day his album released.
34:19
So that lets me know it doesn't matter if you're a millionaire,
34:22
you're one of the most beloved famous people in the world or
34:25
you're just a dad getting milk and eggs.
34:27
We are all in this. And no matter how much money,
34:30
clout, fame you have, you are one moment away from an
34:33
emotional breakdown, but you're also one moment away from
34:36
gratitude and self improvement. So whenever I get down, it's
34:40
like, what's the what's the Jelly roll moment today?
34:44
What's the moment where instead of being salty that I got to go
34:48
balance my work and my family and my recovery, I can be like,
34:51
this is a gift. This is a gift.
34:53
Having to balance look at my son in the eye and being present
34:56
then like going on e-mail and work, uploading A reel, like all
34:59
this stuff, this is a gift that I get to do this, man, this
35:02
isn't it might be exhausting. It might be, it might be
35:05
ridiculously taxing, but it's good work.
35:08
It's good tired. It's good pain.
35:11
And that's something that if I never got sober, I never would
35:15
have experienced the revelation that the very same painful,
35:18
vulnerable, cringing, incredibly agonizing moments of
35:23
transparency are what's going to not just keep us sober, but keep
35:26
us grateful. And I got, I got to plug in this
35:29
charger, but I'm just going to say you're good.
35:32
Yeah, but yeah, that was a moment for me where I was just
35:37
like, what are you doing, man? Like, where's the gratitude?
35:40
What is it? Yeah, I love that and that shift
35:45
from I have to do this to I get to do this today, right?
35:48
It's so subtle, but it's sometimes it could be powerful
35:51
too, right? Yeah, that's amazing, man.
35:55
I want to talk a little bit about, I want to talk about
35:57
music, but first I want to talk about like, how did you end up
36:00
getting into social media and, and spreading the word of
36:03
recovery? I think it's so important
36:04
because there's a lot of, there's a lot of crap and
36:07
garbage on social media and dangerous messages and
36:10
misinformation, but there's also a lot of hope and there's a lot
36:13
of hope. There's a lot of people doing
36:15
really important things, spreading the message.
36:18
And like I also like, like you said, is you never know when
36:22
you're going to get seen by the right person or the person that
36:26
needs to hear you or heard by the person that needs to hear
36:28
you. How did you transition from, you
36:31
know, into social media and posting reels and and helping
36:35
others that way? So when I was two years sober, I
36:38
was working towards my goal of becoming a drug counselor and I
36:42
made music for years in active addiction, mostly glamorizing
36:46
addiction. And I work with a lot of figures
36:49
that I'm very privileged to have worked with in active addiction
36:51
like Project Pat Mac Miller may Rest in peace.
36:55
Before he blew up, I did a track with him.
36:57
And you know, when he died in 2018, you know, that really
37:01
spurred me to get back to writing, but I was just doing it
37:03
for me. I I wasn't really uploading.
37:05
I was uploading on SoundCloud, but I wasn't even really posting
37:07
on my Facebook because I didn't want, I didn't want people to
37:09
see it was literally just for me.
37:12
And I was working in the service industry, paying my way through
37:16
college to be a drug counselor. And I had this moment at the
37:19
treatment center that saved my life.
37:20
And I want to make it clear where I was running these peer
37:24
recovery groups there, but I wasn't a clinician.
37:28
And at the end of one of the groups where like I would bring
37:29
speakers into these clinical settings, this kid who had been
37:32
rolling his eyes the whole time came up to me and he like
37:34
confronted me. He's like, hey man, like, you
37:36
know, I don't want to be sober because it seems like all you
37:39
guys talk about is recovery, blah, blah, blah.
37:41
And he reminded me of myself like 3 years before I was
37:44
actually ready to get sober and I was having a hard day.
37:47
So I just kicked it on. I was like, listen, man, I know
37:51
like just really levelling with him because he was like doing
37:54
perks and like Adderall, like in the like low key in like a way
37:57
that I had been like right at the very beginning when and I
38:00
and I and I and I hit him with truth and I didn't sugarcoat it.
38:04
I cursed. I used the names of actual
38:07
substances, not the clinical names.
38:09
I used addict instead of substance use disorder.
38:11
But at the end of it, he's like, dude, like, I don't know if this
38:15
is OK, but like, I, I want to, can I get your number?
38:17
Like I actually want to talk to you about this, man.
38:19
Like, like, can we get lunch or something?
38:21
Like once I'm done with this, Like, I know, like, I'm like,
38:23
yeah, bro, like here you go. Like, like, let's do it.
38:25
And I did end up like going with him to a recovery group and like
38:28
all that stuff down the line. But the counselor accosted me
38:33
and she's like, you can't do that.
38:34
And I was like, oh, no, I can't get lunch.
38:35
But like, you know, she's like, no, not that you can't use the
38:38
word addict. You can't use street names of
38:40
drugs. You can't be that
38:42
confrontational. Like, that's unprofessional.
38:47
And I wanted to scream at them. Like, you know, this kid was
38:49
rolling his eyes through the institutional language and all
38:51
this stuff, right? You know, I was talking to a man
38:53
to man, like addicts, addict, like, and like, this is what's
38:57
making him want to do this. But I didn't say that.
38:59
I was like, OK, And I bit my tongue and I kept working there
39:03
for three months. But I was just so disillusioned
39:05
about it because I was like, I can't be me.
39:06
I can't. I can't say what I want to say.
39:09
And that inspired me more to get into my music.
39:10
And then three months later, I was up in Vermont because my dad
39:14
built a house up here, a little cabin in the 70s.
39:17
And he gave it to me after I got sober.
39:19
And I was working on fixing it up with the eventual aim of
39:21
moving up here to be a drug counselor.
39:23
But then I didn't even know if I wanted to do that.
39:25
You know, I was still in school. Long story short, a friend of a
39:28
friend came up to my house in Vermont with an old piano, heard
39:32
one of the first piano rap tracks I've been putting
39:34
together about recovery. He's like, dude, I know this guy
39:36
who's just built a studio here in Vermont, you should really
39:39
meet him. So I meet with the guy who owns
39:41
the studio. I play him the song, and it
39:43
turns out he's not just a producer, he's also a doctor,
39:46
Broadway producer and Doctor Who has been sitting in on this back
39:51
in 2018, community forums at the beginning of the fentanyl crisis
39:55
about Community Action that can be taken to raise awareness
39:58
about fighting the epidemic. But since he wasn't an addict,
40:01
he didn't know how to reach people do that way.
40:04
But he wanted to give back philanthropically, like help
40:06
people. So he met me, heard my music
40:08
here in my store, and he asked me a question that changed
40:10
everything. He said, do you think you can
40:13
reach more people by speaking honestly and through your music
40:15
or through an institutional setting?
40:17
And I was already thinking that I couldn't do that.
40:19
And I was like, through music. And he's like.
40:21
Why don't you come back up here? I want to buy the rights to one
40:23
of your songs, like we'll do a one off thing and if it works
40:26
like and I was just stoked because like he he paid me to
40:29
perform. It was my dream to be a
40:31
professional musician and we started doing these songs
40:33
together and he was buying the rights to the songs and I was
40:35
stoked on that. But four songs and I was like,
40:37
dude, like this is a good partnership.
40:41
Like we got to split this 5050 here on out if you want to keep
40:44
working with me. And I was expecting to be like,
40:46
Ah, Nah, like whatever. But what he said was, no, we
40:49
don't just need to do that. You need to move up here full
40:51
time. I'm going to get an arts
40:52
residency going for you. And we're going to do this
40:54
album. We're going to do this work.
40:57
And so I packed all my stuff. I moved to Vermont.
40:59
Everybody in my recovery group told me I was crazy.
41:02
They said I was giving everything up.
41:03
But I knew. I prayed about it, and I knew it
41:05
was right. So I moved up here.
41:07
We did the album clean the piano rap album.
41:10
But then the pandemic happened and all the tour stuff he was
41:13
setting up fell through, and I started working at the magazines
41:17
he also owned as a journalist. Another opportunity or recovery?
41:21
Because at that time, like, live shows were shut down and we were
41:24
still working on music, but it was a hiatus.
41:26
And then I met the woman who's now the fiance and the mother of
41:29
my kids. I settled down and I got to
41:31
another point where I was like the same way in recovery.
41:34
I don't care if I never do music again.
41:35
I got a son, I got a job, like I got a life.
41:39
But then one night, my son was five months old, and my girl
41:43
couldn't sleep while she was nursing him.
41:45
And like, all this stuff, and she's scrolling through reels on
41:47
her phone. And at this point, I've done,
41:49
like, community programs before and after the pandemic over
41:52
Zoom, like prevention summits. I've started writing a column
41:56
about recovery. I've started doing an FM radio
41:58
show about recovery, But I don't know anything about social
42:02
media. I've seen a couple reels come
42:04
across my feed, but they're not recovery related.
42:07
And then I'm like, and she's got all these trending audio things
42:09
going through phone. And me, the millennial, she's
42:12
nine years younger than me. She's 25 now and I'm 33, about
42:16
to be 34. And I'm like, what's that?
42:17
She's like, oh, it's reels. And I was like, what are those?
42:19
And she shows me these reels of like all these moms taking care
42:22
of their kids and all these fitness influencers because she
42:25
likes to run and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, that's cool.
42:27
She's like, yeah, you should make these about recovery.
42:30
And I'm like, oh, I can't do that.
42:32
Nobody's wanting want to hear that.
42:33
And the crazy thing is the algorithm listens to what you
42:36
say on your phone. And over the next couple weeks,
42:39
I started seeing reels from Jimmy McGill, Brad from Sober
42:43
Motivation. I'm Rachel Elizabeth Quinn
42:46
Lapeer, the Cali sober creator. And, and, and it just magically
42:49
shows up and I'm like, wait, people are doing this.
42:52
And I was 6 1/2 years sober and I was like, wait, I can really
42:55
do this. So I bought a phone and I got
42:59
permission from my team and I just started recording.
43:04
And at first I was like trying to make it like other people.
43:07
And I was like trying to be exactly the same.
43:10
And like a couple things were catching, some things weren't.
43:13
And then I realized, like, dude, you shouldn't make yourself work
43:20
for this. You should make this work for
43:23
you. If it's not going to naturally
43:24
work, it's not going to work. So instead of trying to stage
43:27
it, make it all like professional, like whatever
43:30
studio, like high quality, whatever.
43:32
I just started grabbing my phone, taking my dog on walks
43:35
around my block and sharing moments in my recovery where I
43:40
was tested and what helped me get through it.
43:42
And the only rules I applied to it were, is it true?
43:46
Would it help me in early recovery or would it help me in
43:48
active addiction? And when I gave up on trying to
43:52
make it cool, when I gave up on trying to make a streamline,
43:55
when I just did one take, threw a filter on it, threw some
43:59
captions on it and just hit post, that's when it that's when
44:02
it actually got some momentum. And I attribute that to the fact
44:08
that, you know, clout and influence and money and, you
44:13
know, status is an addiction just as much as a substance ever
44:18
was. It takes it back to like when I
44:19
said it wasn't just about the substance numbing me, it was
44:21
that it became my identity. And so when I finally was like,
44:26
I don't care about followers. I don't care about none of this,
44:28
Let's just put the message out and let's do it.
44:31
That's when it started connecting me with people.
44:34
And I've more than any numbers whatever.
44:37
I became part of this community that you're part of as well.
44:39
There's so many great people are part of where hopefully whether
44:43
it reaches 1,000,000 people or 100 people, we're just sharing
44:45
what we know and doing our best to be there for people in the
44:48
way that they were there for us on the other side off of the
44:51
phone, but using social media and the fact we could be open
44:54
about recovery through this to put it out there.
44:59
Oh man, well, I, I needed to hear that.
45:02
Thank you. It's so true.
45:03
Like, you know, I'm struggling recently with with chasing the
45:07
followers, chasing the likes, chasing the clout, and I can
45:10
easily tell myself that I'm doing it for the right reason.
45:12
And, you know, I got into this ultimately, and I truly do know
45:16
this and believe this, the podcast, but also social media
45:20
to stay sober myself, right? Like that was, that was goal
45:23
number one. I need to surround myself with
45:24
recovery because if I'm not sober, I can't help anybody.
45:27
I can't do anything. I can't be a husband, I can't be
45:30
a son, I can't be a brother. I can't do any of these things
45:33
if I'm not sober. So that was, that was my rule #1
45:36
And I love that you said that you, you kind of, you stick with
45:39
three rules, right? Is it true?
45:41
Yeah, 100%. That's important.
45:43
Like I can't be, I can't be fabricating some of my stories
45:48
or glorifying anything or, you know, just straight up lying
45:51
because I lied every day, every second of every day when I was
45:54
in active addiction. And I can still lie today.
45:56
I still struggle with that, right.
45:57
So, you know, am I being authentic today?
45:59
That's because that's what's going to, that's what's going to
46:02
help that one person that, that we're thinking about, you know,
46:04
because to your point, when I came in, somebody was authentic
46:08
to me, somebody was kind to me. And that's what kept me around,
46:12
kept me calling that person and asking for help because I wanted
46:15
what they had. And they always said to me, I
46:17
always say this, it's like, son, if you want what, what I have,
46:20
you know, here's what I did. You can do it or, or not do it.
46:22
It's, it's up to you. There's suggestions, right?
46:25
And ultimately I'm, I'm grateful that I, I followed those
46:27
suggestions today. So yeah, I needed to hear that.
46:31
I need to hear it too. I, I can get so caught up
46:35
because it's like a rush when you see there's been so many
46:39
podcasts about, it's a dopamine hit.
46:40
You know what I mean? And, and I'm a creator.
46:43
It's inherent in the, in the phrase, there's AJ Cole line
46:47
from, you know, fire squad off 2014 Forest Hills Drive.
46:51
At the end of the day, every poet just wants to be loved.
46:54
And so I'm not going to fake like, I don't want people to
46:57
like what I'm doing. I was just, I don't care.
46:59
Of course I care. I'm creating something, whether
47:02
it's a talk reel or a song. Of course I like it.
47:05
But that can't that reality, that admission that yes, I do
47:10
like views or positive feedback. Yeah, that can't be the aim that
47:18
that's the best. I acknowledge that that
47:21
motivation is there. It's not going to magically
47:23
disappear. But can we extricate ourselves
47:27
from that and make stuff that's not driven by that?
47:32
Yeah, the driving force. That's what I was going to say.
47:34
Yeah. Yeah.
47:35
It can't be the North Star, right?
47:36
It can't be the driving force, the because, yeah, I mean,
47:39
outcomes. I'm very focused on outcomes
47:41
when I'm, when I'm not in the best place or and I'm not, you
47:45
know, I would say spiritually on the beam or, or working a
47:48
program of recovery, I'm focusing on outcomes.
47:51
And I have expectations. And you mentioned it before, but
47:54
expectations just lead to resentments, right?
47:55
Because again, you're not living according to Anthony's script.
47:58
And if it was done this way, if everyone just listened to me,
48:01
life would be better, right? And, and that's led me to so
48:04
many dark, dark paths before What, what's, what's one of your
48:10
favorite lines that you, you rap about?
48:13
Or because there's so many good ones, man.
48:14
And I was trying to look up your lyrics before to find them, but
48:16
you know, they're not anywhere. So I just figured I would ask
48:20
you instead because there was a lot that hit me where I was
48:22
like, damn, like that was really well said.
48:24
But if you had to think of, you know, a line that you're really
48:27
either proud of or, or even a song that you're proud of or
48:29
something that you really, you know, helped you, what would
48:34
that be? I think the three verses that I
48:42
think music is recreation when it's good.
48:47
So I try not to make it a meritocracy and I'm not going to
48:50
big up myself by saying, oh, like this is bar like it is what
48:56
it is. I mean, some of my favorite
48:58
rappers don't have any bars. They just have charisma and
49:01
they've got good delivery. Some are the opposite.
49:03
They don't have any flow, but like they're, they're words hit
49:06
and sometimes they're not even deep.
49:08
They're just funny or they're they there's no grading system.
49:12
Lists are fun. Like whatever.
49:15
I just, I just need to remind myself of that because what I
49:19
like isn't necessarily what other people relate to.
49:21
I've been surprised. Like people say things and I'm
49:23
like, oh, that's corny. I don't like that bar.
49:25
But then they're like that. I'm damn near want to get that
49:28
tattooed on me, people. I'm like, whoa, that's awesome.
49:30
But like, it's just it's very particular.
49:34
I would say that the three songs.
49:35
That. I that mean the most to me are
49:41
Scars off of Clean, Price of Addiction, my song with Matt
49:47
Keegan means a lot to me and not stopping off of my first DP
49:53
after Clean means a lot to me. The reason those 3 songs mean
49:58
the most to me is Scars is something.
50:00
I actually wrote that verse when I was three months sober and I
50:03
never intended it to be a rap because it was about when
50:07
someone saw one of my track Mark scars at work and asked about it
50:10
and I had to be honest with him. And I decided to be honest when
50:14
I was working as a busboy. Price of addiction.
50:19
I wrote that verse at 3:00 AM after putting my baby back to
50:23
sleep when I couldn't sleep when Matt had sent me the original
50:26
like raw version of the beat. And I was trying to make it all
50:29
these things. But I was just like, what would
50:32
you want someone to say if they were giving you tough love about
50:35
like what would await if you if you went back?
50:37
And I, I'm not going to say I freestyled it, but I wrote it in
50:40
15 minutes. I wasn't sure Matt was going to
50:42
like it. I just sent it to him and it is
50:45
what it is on the song. And not stopping means a lot to
50:49
me because I was in a place where I was recording a lot of
50:56
verses for social media. It wasn't clear whether my team
50:59
was going to let me make them into songs.
51:01
I was starting to get a lot of hate for recovery being the
51:05
omnipresent thing in my music. And, you know, the person who
51:10
inspired me the most. I mean, of course, you know,
51:12
Eminem, Royce to 59, Jelly Roll. Yeah.
51:15
But Khaleesi, more than anybody is my #1 inspiration as a artist
51:23
in recovery. And that was the song that
51:27
connected me with him. That was the verse where when I
51:31
dropped the raw version, he he reached out to me and it was
51:38
kind of a beautiful thing because I didn't plan it.
51:42
All three of those verses were written through.
51:46
I didn't think about them. I just penned them almost
51:49
freestyle style. And they've ended up being kind
51:53
of the most significant things that have opened my life up.
51:57
But more than that just reminded me that it's all about being
52:01
present when you write something rather than having a concerted
52:05
aim and kind of in the same way as in recovery.
52:07
If I can get out of my own way, cool stuff can happen.
52:11
Kind of the best laid plans don't always amount to
52:14
something. And so more than like the bars,
52:18
because there's some things where like my favorite line of
52:21
anything that I've ever done personally, just because I like
52:24
hip hop and it's so multi layered is on not stopping.
52:28
It's because when the M boxes and H turned to pawn boxes, too
52:33
many friends passed like Nash and John Stockton.
52:36
Like that's the one like when it came out, I was just like, OK,
52:39
that's that's something that like if I was in active
52:43
addiction, I would have been like, OK, that's that's hip hop.
52:47
So I'm I'm happy with that. And a lot of people have, you
52:50
know, gassed me about that or whatever.
52:52
They're like, Oh, that's I never heard like a recovery line like
52:56
that. And I'm like, well, we've all
52:58
lived it. So whether it rhymes or not, or
53:01
it puts metaphors together in like a clever way or whatever,
53:05
sure. But the challenge I deal with
53:08
that is how can I encapsulate losing friends in the evolution
53:11
of the opioid epidemic from pills of fentanyl And like in
53:15
one line. And and that's to me is whether
53:20
it's talk content or music, it's like, yeah, you can have bars,
53:24
you can have good delivery, you can look in the camera the white
53:27
right way, have a good angle, have a good mix.
53:29
Like, sure. But is it true?
53:33
And is it going to help people? And we won't know that until the
53:37
help people until it goes out. But usually if it helps us by
53:40
saying it or rapping or singing it, then there's a better chance
53:45
that it's going to help somebody.
53:47
And that and that's how I try to run my game, yeah.
53:53
I love it, man. Well, you've helped me today.
53:55
Honestly it's been a great conversation so far and I.
53:58
Appreciate it my boys bro thank you.
54:01
I wanna end with this. If you could say something to a
54:07
struggling artist, creator, you know, whether they're getting
54:12
started or they don't know if they want to do this full time
54:15
yet or or maybe they're struggling with drugs and
54:17
alcohol as well. What would you say to that
54:20
person? Well, I actually have a song I'm
54:22
working on and what's funny is I was going to click on my notes
54:26
to like try to search it and find it and, and this is
54:29
provenance. It's literally right there.
54:30
I didn't, I didn't expect. I was just working on it like
54:33
yesterday. And I don't know if this song is
54:35
ever going to come out. My team probably won't let me do
54:37
it because they want me to do more melodic stuff moving
54:39
forward after this next recovery EP.
54:40
But this is what I'd say to them.
54:45
If you have a story and a potent truth, you don't need a budget
54:49
or the dopest booth. You just need to trust that what
54:52
you're going through is something other people
54:54
understand that's truly overdue for sharing.
54:56
Even when the algorithm's looking over you.
54:59
Because even if some people don't acknowledge while they're
55:01
scrolling through, even if you have to start from scratch and
55:04
start over a few more iterations, modern attention
55:07
spans have limitations. Don't let your zone of creation
55:11
fold to intimidation. You don't need a filming crew,
55:14
and you don't need a selfie stand to actualize your vision.
55:16
You just need to develop a plan. Never let your insecurity limit
55:20
creative growth. If you have knowledge, channel
55:23
it through your content and make it known.
55:24
And if you're only in it for the fame or the clout, take it back
55:28
to the basics. And then reframe what you're
55:29
about and ask yourself when the money in the hype disappears.
55:34
Will your content inspire people to fight through their fears?
55:40
Wow. Thank you.
55:42
I love it was interesting that that was like right there.
55:44
That was I was working on 'cause I know that encapsulated the
55:49
whole episode. I hope so.
55:50
I mean, oh man, listen, I hope that comes out.
55:54
What I would say separate from that indulgent millennial
55:56
recovery boy versus if you have a crappy, you know, prepaid gas
56:05
station Android phone with low pixels and you have a crappy
56:09
looking apartment, yeah, it might not look like a Rachel
56:15
Elizabeth or sober motivation video, shout out to them.
56:19
It might not look like a Brandon Novak video, shout out to him.
56:25
But it's going to look like the phones and apartments of a lot
56:28
of other people who are actually in early recovery going through
56:31
the struggle. And even if the algorithm
56:34
doesn't prioritize you, you, it's not just about honesty and
56:38
what you say. You don't need to save up for
56:40
like a dope iPhone or like Galaxy to like have good
56:44
content. You don't have to have perfectly
56:46
color sync stuff. You can use stock Facebook,
56:51
YouTube shorts, Instagram, TikTok fonts, not even correct.
56:55
The captions, not even place them, not even have perfect
56:58
bordering or like camera placement.
57:00
If what you're saying is true and it comes from the heart,
57:03
even if you don't have anything to say and you're just like 353
57:07
days sober today, like I got a job today.
57:10
Like, you know, one of the most powerful videos I've seen that
57:13
went mega viral and it made me so happy to see it is a girl
57:16
wasn't even saying anything. And the girl wasn't even talking
57:19
about being strong in recovery. She had her phone on and she was
57:23
crying with a trending audio of honest Dave.
57:25
I'd rather overdose. And she said, I'm driving around
57:28
in my car crying, trying to get through the cravings so that I
57:32
can be there for my kids and not go back.
57:35
And it got 10s of millions of views.
57:39
And it didn't come from it being a pre camera.
57:42
It was a horrible camera, horrible angle, horrible content
57:46
sync. But it was real.
57:51
And God bless her for doing that man.
57:54
Because that's the type of content the world needs.
57:56
It's not polished, it's not professional, it's real, it's
58:00
resonant, and it's saving people's lives.
58:04
Pick up the camera. Don't let anybody else hating.
58:07
Don't let your own voice hating. If you have something to share,
58:11
pick up the phone, hit post and let the chips fall.
58:14
You have no idea how many people want to hear you.
58:16
None. I guarantee it.
58:18
Yeah. Well said.
58:23
Yeah, one of my favorite people, you know, and he, he's an author
58:28
too, but producer Rick Rubin, he has a amazing book called The
58:32
Creative Way or Creative Act or something.
58:35
And he always goes back to, you know, art creation art.
58:39
It's, it's not for the audience, it's for the the artist, right.
58:45
And how it's going to be received is how it's going to be
58:48
received, right? It's not up to me.
58:49
I can't control that. But if it makes me happy and I'm
58:52
happy with it, then it's art and it's my art, you know?
58:56
And it's a beautiful thing. So I appreciate you, Benjamin.
58:59
You're I'm, I'm happy to have met you.
59:02
And I look forward to the many more tracks that you're going to
59:05
put out in reels and keep doing what you're.
59:07
Doing likewise, man, God bless you, God bless your platform,
59:10
and one day, in one pot at a time, we can do this.
59:17
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
59:19
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
59:22
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
59:25
informational and motivational purposes only.
59:28
This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice,
59:31
addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is
59:35
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
59:37
physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional.
59:41
You are no longer alone.