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Expanding The Definition of Secure Attachment with Linda Thai LMSW · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Trauma Thepist Podcast Plus listeners can listen to episodes early
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Speaker 1: going to Apple Podcasts, searching for the Trauma Thepist podcast
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Speaker 1: and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma Neverist Podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson, and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. You ready,
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Speaker 1: I am ready, Okay, here we go. So five or three,
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Speaker 1: two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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Speaker 1: Very excited to have back Linda. Hi, Linda, welcome.
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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be back here with you and
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Speaker 2: all of your listeners.
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Speaker 1: Guys. Awesome. So Linda is a trauma therapist, educator, and consultant.
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Speaker 1: She's gifted with the capacity to contextualize, synthesize, and communicate
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Speaker 1: complex and nuanced issues pretending to trauma, attachment, and the
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Speaker 1: nervous system, including the impact of oppressive systems upon identity,
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Speaker 1: mental health, and well being. Born in Vietnam, raised in Australia,
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Speaker 1: and now living in Alaska, Linda is a former child
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Speaker 1: refugee who's not only redefining what it means to be Vietnamese,
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Speaker 1: to be Australian, and to be a United Statsian, she's
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Speaker 1: also redefining what it means to be wounded and whole
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Speaker 1: and a healer. Love that bio, Linda, Great to see
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Speaker 1: you again before we start out here. I mean, I
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Speaker 1: pretty much said it in the bio, but share with
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Speaker 1: the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: So I was born in Vietnam and I'm a former
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Speaker 2: child refugee. So after the fall of Saigone in seventy five,
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Speaker 2: there were challenges living in Vietnam, and so in seventy
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Speaker 2: nine my family fled. We made it to a refugee
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Speaker 2: camp in Malaysia. We lived there for six month. Once
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Speaker 2: my little sister was born in that refugee camp, we
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Speaker 2: then made our way to Australia. We were sponsored out
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Speaker 2: under a pilot rural resettlement scheme and from there, you know,
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Speaker 2: I was raised in Australia. However I never felt that
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Speaker 2: sense of home. So I kept making concentric circles outwards
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Speaker 2: in search of an outward place that would actually reflect
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Speaker 2: a mirror how I felt about myself on the inside,
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Speaker 2: and it was only when I discovered Alaska that I
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Speaker 2: got that sense of ah, like, this is where I'm
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Speaker 2: supposed to live, this is how I'm supposed to live.
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Speaker 2: And I always knew that how I live is so
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Speaker 2: much more important than what I do, And so I
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Speaker 2: have so much gratitude for being here today on the
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Speaker 2: lands of the danae Athabaskan peoples of the Middle Tanana Valley,
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Speaker 2: where the land is big enough.
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Speaker 3: To hold all of us right in terms of our
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Speaker 3: own individual stuff, and has enough stillness that it can
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Speaker 3: actually rattle and share that which wants to emerge and
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Speaker 3: be moved through on the inside.
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Speaker 1: That is amazing. I wish I could say I feel
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Speaker 1: that about where I live right now. But you said,
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Speaker 1: right now, you're experiencing a winter storm. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah.
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Speaker 2: We've just had a snowstorm followed by an ice storm,
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Speaker 2: followed by some more snow, followed by a windstorm. And
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Speaker 2: it's unusual for up here, especially the freezing rain and
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Speaker 2: the ice storm, because in interior or Alaska where I am,
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Speaker 2: usually it's too cold and too dry for it to snow.
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Speaker 2: We're technically a desert, and so whether you call it
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Speaker 2: the weather patterns or climate change. We've been getting warmer
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Speaker 2: and more humid air over the last ten years, and
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Speaker 2: there has been increased snowfall and increasing freezing rain, which
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Speaker 2: is unusual for us. We're calling it the ice apocalypse
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Speaker 2: because right the yeah, freezing rain is black ice on
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Speaker 2: the roads.
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Speaker 1: It's kind of dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right. Look,
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Speaker 1: so we're here to talk about really specifically something you're
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Speaker 1: doing with presentation you're giving to the Trauma Wisdom Circle,
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Speaker 1: which is with under Academy of Therapy Wisdom, which is
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Speaker 1: a phenomenal sponsor of this podcast. I'm so excited that
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Speaker 1: they're sponsoring my podcast and I get to interview you.
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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, I want if we can,
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Speaker 1: if you can provide just a little snippet and thumbnail
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Speaker 1: of no, you got to this place because Linda looked
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Speaker 1: before we even say anything, you exude and I know
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Speaker 1: I said this to you before. You exude a groundedness,
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Speaker 1: a compassion. You exude that. And how did you get
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Speaker 1: because of hearing your background. I mean a lot of
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Speaker 1: us can think of, oh my god, oh my god.
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Speaker 2: So yes, my life was that, you know, I had
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Speaker 2: my own struggles with addiction. The aftermath of the impact
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Speaker 2: of force displacement upon myself and my family was pretty
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Speaker 2: tough for us to navigate. And somewhere in my mid
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Speaker 2: thirties I discovered the body keeps a Score. I discovered
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Speaker 2: yoga meditation only a few years before that, which actually
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Speaker 2: provided me enough capacity to be able to take in
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Speaker 2: the wealth of information that was in the Body keeps
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Speaker 2: a Score because it helped me to make sense of
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Speaker 2: myself and my life. And so my own journey through
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Speaker 2: a dictionary recovery and trauma recovery which was really based
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Speaker 2: upon meditation and yoga before. I then studied IFS and
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Speaker 2: sensor motor psychotherapy and somatic experiencing and brain spotting and
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Speaker 2: like all of these modalities that really are so foundational
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Speaker 2: to trauma therapy these days, Like studying those trainings actually
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Speaker 2: was a huge part of my own healing journey as well.
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Speaker 2: And so there there, but there was this elusive piece
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Speaker 2: around attachment, like an elusive piece around attachment. And I
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Speaker 2: was ever so fortunate to study with Bessel Vanderklcinleisia Sky
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Speaker 2: in terms of studying the their form of psychodrama structures
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Speaker 2: which Bessel studied with Alpeso, where it's really about somatic
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Speaker 2: symbolic reparenting, and that really did help me to repair
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Speaker 2: my attachment template with my parents.
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Speaker 1: And yet probably symbolic reparenting.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I got a new attachment template in my body, Yeah,
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Speaker 2: through individuals who would take on roles to be to
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Speaker 2: play the roles of my real parents and the role
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Speaker 2: of my ideal parents. And in the first task of
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Speaker 2: grief is coming to terms with reality. So putting your
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Speaker 2: real parents or your real life out there in three
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Speaker 2: dimensional space helped me to move the grief that was there,
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Speaker 2: and then to experience ideal parents who would hold me
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Speaker 2: and touch me and sing to me and look at
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Speaker 2: me in the ways in which my real parents didn't
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Speaker 2: and couldn't. Back there back then helped my body and
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Speaker 2: my nervous system, who experienced what it would have been
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Speaker 2: like and could have been like in such a way
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Speaker 2: that imprinted so that I then moved through the world
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Speaker 2: as if I had had secure attachment back there back then,
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Speaker 2: And so my life actually pivoted on a dime. And
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Speaker 2: yet I know that this modality isn't accessible or available
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Speaker 2: to everyone. And there was this big period of attachment
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Speaker 2: theory is great. It's helped me to make sense of
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Speaker 2: my life. But I needed something to help me to
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Speaker 2: repair the rift between myself and my parents that happened
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Speaker 2: as a result of circumstances that were forced upon us.
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Speaker 2: And so that's where that's where the work that I'm
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Speaker 2: putting out in the world in terms of a more
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Speaker 2: expansive conceptualization of secure attachment then arises. Yeah, so that's
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Speaker 2: the nutshell answer of the how is Linda tie So?
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Speaker 1: And I appreciate that. Did you move into this sounds
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Speaker 1: like intense study with the purpose of becoming a teacher
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Speaker 1: or was it just like I gotta hear myself?
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Speaker 2: It was the latter, It was, yeah, and it was
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Speaker 2: this thread that was just compelling me forward. Like I
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Speaker 2: knew that for myself, it didn't matter what else I
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Speaker 2: did in my lifetime. It was healing myself that was
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Speaker 2: of utmost priority and importance and if anything, doing other
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Speaker 2: things would be a distraction from from doing that work.
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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so let's start talking about the presentation
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Speaker 1: you're going to do with the Wisdom Circle. Now, let
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Speaker 1: me ask you this some plause. Here, are you on
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Speaker 1: a laptop?
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Speaker 2: Yes, I am, and you tilted.
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Speaker 1: More down, so we decrease the space.
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Speaker 2: I'm actually I'm on a laptop, but there's a cell
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Speaker 2: phone that's been used.
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Speaker 1: Okay, my.
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Speaker 2: As my camera.
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Speaker 1: Oh interesting. What I'm going to do is.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to sit a little bit higher up work.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to put your head off. Yeah is
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Speaker 1: that Yeah? That's perfect? So wow, Okay, so say say
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Speaker 1: again this piece about attachment and your need for that
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Speaker 1: and bringing that out into the world if you can.
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Speaker 1: I got a lot.
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Speaker 2: I got a lot of benefit out of learning about
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Speaker 2: attachment theory and what happens with disrupted attachment. However, there
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Speaker 2: were two things. One it didn't do much to help
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Speaker 2: me repair my relationship with my parents, and secondly, my
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Speaker 2: symptoms didn't match the attachment history. And so that was
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Speaker 2: where I then learned about racialized trauma and the ways
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Speaker 2: in which racialized trauma can look exactly like disorganized attachment. However,
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Speaker 2: if we don't know that as clinicians, we actually end
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Speaker 2: up mis pathologizing or we actually end up misdiagnosing and
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Speaker 2: pathologizing our clients because we're hyper focused on the dietic
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Speaker 2: relationship between the parent and the child and how that
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Speaker 2: expresses as symptoms later on in life. So there was
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Speaker 2: that one piece which I felt I needed to talk
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Speaker 2: more about and share more about into the clinical world.
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Speaker 2: And then the second piece is, you know, how do
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Speaker 2: we offer our clients a more expansive conceptualization of secure
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Speaker 2: attachment beyond the hyper focus on the dietic relationship between
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Speaker 2: the parent and the child, in such a way that
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Speaker 2: can help to repair the relationship between the parent and
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Speaker 2: the child.
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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So what is your presentation going to be?
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Speaker 1: Having said all that, what are you going to focus
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Speaker 1: on with this Wisdom Circle presentation?
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Speaker 2: So the first part of it is talking about what
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Speaker 2: does secure attachment mean in a world whose systems and
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Speaker 2: institutions offer pervasive messages and messaging of insecurity which actually
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Speaker 2: impacts all of us. Yeah, so to expand beyond the
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Speaker 2: hyper focus on the diet. So an example from our
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Speaker 2: industries earlier on this year, there was a big disruption
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Speaker 2: around the cyber hacking of Change Management, which affected the
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Speaker 2: billing systems for a lot of healthcare businesses, including clinicians
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Speaker 2: who may use Change Healthcare as a clearinghouse for their billing.
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Speaker 2: And so you can have great secure attachment with your parents,
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Speaker 2: but in the face of the consistent messages of insecurity
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Speaker 2: and that you're not important and that we'll get around
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Speaker 2: to you. But we're not getting around to you. And
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Speaker 2: you know, weeks weeks, weeks, weeks, months later, they're finally
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Speaker 2: addressing it through messages that say, oh, by the way,
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Speaker 2: if you sign this bit of paper, then we'll pay
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Speaker 2: you a lump some but it'll actually be less than
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Speaker 2: what we actually owe you. I mean, what does that
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Speaker 2: do to your sense of security as safety and coherence
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Speaker 2: in the world.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I mean, and there are innumerable examples of
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Speaker 1: that that we're being fed, yes, every single day and
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Speaker 1: hopefully I mean to what. You know, we can only
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Speaker 1: so much say stop, I don't want to. Stuff is
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Speaker 1: going to seep through, exactly, and obviously some of us
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Speaker 1: are more susceptible that too.
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Speaker 2: Exactly. If you hold a trans non binary into sex identity,
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Speaker 2: if you hold any you know, non normative sexual expression
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Speaker 2: in terms of your identity, if you're a person of
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Speaker 2: the global majority living in the United States, then you
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Speaker 2: are getting and have gotten over time messages and messaging
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Speaker 2: of insecurity. And so it's great if you did have
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Speaker 2: secure attachment with your parents. However, you may be expressing
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Speaker 2: in ways, you may be expressing yourself in ways that
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Speaker 2: can be misdiagnosed and pathologized as secure attachment. And we've
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Speaker 2: got the ladder up against the wrong wall as clinicians.
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Speaker 2: And so that's the first part. That's the one part
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Speaker 2: of the presentation.
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Speaker 1: So in a way, not even in a way, it
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Speaker 1: fuels and seems like you were expounding on what the
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Speaker 1: definition of secure attachment, what it means, what looks like,
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Speaker 1: what it could look like.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, And then from there we actually go
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Speaker 2: into an spandard conceptualization of secure attachment, which can actually
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Speaker 2: bring up a lot of complex grief for what we
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Speaker 2: didn't get that we realized that we didn't get. So
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Speaker 2: there's secure attachment with nature, secure attachment with ancestors, secure
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Speaker 2: attachment with culture, secure attachment with with bodies, and secure
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Speaker 2: attachment with time. And so if you like, guys, I
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Speaker 2: can break up each of these so that we can
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Speaker 2: talk about it in some more detail.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's pick two. Okay, let's
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Speaker 1: let's peak a couple. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So secure attachment with nature, right, that's being and living
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Speaker 2: in synchrony with the natural environment around you, so that
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Speaker 2: you're aware of the season right as an embodied sensorial
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Speaker 2: sensorial experience in your body. That you have a connection
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Speaker 2: with your food and where your food comes from, that
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Speaker 2: you know the cycles of the moon and of the sun,
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Speaker 2: and the stars and the clouds and the rain throughout
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Speaker 2: the course of the day, the month, the year, and
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Speaker 2: within these cycles of life. Right, it's actually our ancestors
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Speaker 2: that give us a relationship and in part upon us
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Speaker 2: a secure attachment relationship with nature, so that instead of
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Speaker 2: feeling like we are separate to nature, we feel like
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Speaker 2: we're a part of nature. And your ancestors can be
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Speaker 2: your bloodline ancestors, but they are also your activist ancestors,
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Speaker 2: your professional ancestors. Your ancestors can be of rock and
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Speaker 2: stone and all the beings that are non human that
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Speaker 2: co evolved alongside your human ancestors so that we could
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Speaker 2: all be here today, right. And your culture is food
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Speaker 2: and language, and the ancient technology that weaves its way
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Speaker 2: through all cultures is song and story and movement and silence,
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Speaker 2: and these aspects are interwoven in all the rituals that
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Speaker 2: mark the transition of time. Over the course of the
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Speaker 2: months and the seasons and the cycles of a human
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Speaker 2: over the course of a lifespan. Whether you're talking about
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Speaker 2: weddings or butt mitzvahs or funerals or harvest, it's all
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Speaker 2: song and story and movement and silence.
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Speaker 1: And many of us have even lost contact with a
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Speaker 1: lot of those rituals.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and food and language. Yeah, and then this gives rise.
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Speaker 2: And then within all of this is secure attachment to
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Speaker 2: the communal body, but also to my body, my own body.
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Speaker 2: And when I have a fecand and sensuous, an unmediated
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Speaker 2: relationship with the natural world around me through my body,
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Speaker 2: that I am embodied, and then I have access to
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Speaker 2: secure attachment to pleasure and play and rest and work.
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Speaker 2: And then lastly, yeah.
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Speaker 1: This is really because so I'm just thinking, Yeah, so
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Speaker 1: much of what you're saying, I feel disconnect I feel
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Speaker 1: so disconnected to a lot of what you're saying, in
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Speaker 1: the sense of I don't feel connected with my environment
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Speaker 1: and with nature and all that stuff. When you're working
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Speaker 1: with someone, how are you assessing this them? For this
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Speaker 1: what are you looking.
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Speaker 2: At when you look at it from a strength based perspective.
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Speaker 2: For many of my complex developmental trauma clients, they have
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Speaker 2: very minimal desire to be around other humans because the
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Speaker 2: other humans are the source of the trauma and the
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Speaker 2: terror and the betrayal and the distrust and the mistrust.
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Speaker 2: And so we tend to as mental health clinicians, have
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Speaker 2: like a real hyper emphasis on the support people in
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Speaker 2: your life and forming and forging relationships with other humans.
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Speaker 2: And it can actually land as shaming and stigmatizing for
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Speaker 2: many of our clients because they're not there, like it's
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Speaker 2: just the last thing on earth, and us continuing to
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Speaker 2: push it upon them, you know, it's not helpful. So
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Speaker 2: and you'll hear this. You'll hear this with folks in
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Speaker 2: recovery that they'll say, Yeah, the first ten years of
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Speaker 2: my recovery, I spent living in nature, and I had
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Speaker 2: my plants, and I have my pets, and I listen
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Speaker 2: to the wind, and I collect flowers and I dried
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Speaker 2: them and I made them into cards. Right, And they're
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Speaker 2: reclaiming this relationship in their own way to the other
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Speaker 2: gateways of an expansive conceptualization of secure attachment. Yeah, and
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Speaker 2: through each of these portals we then can it to
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Speaker 2: the last one, which is secure attachment to time. And
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Speaker 2: most of us live with anxious attachment to time, and
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Speaker 2: so this scener gives rise to a cosmology within which
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Speaker 2: to place ourselves, our ancestors that can be more expansive
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Speaker 2: and helpful in a way that our hyper focus on
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Speaker 2: the diadic relationship may possibly not be.
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Speaker 1: When you say that many of us live in an
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Speaker 1: anxious relationship to time, I can maybe think about what
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Speaker 1: that might mean, but say more about that.
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Speaker 2: We want to have more of it. It becomes like
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Speaker 2: an object that we grasp onto, we want to hold,
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Speaker 2: we want to have more. Yeah, we're clinging to it,
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Speaker 2: we're pushing against it. Yeah, that's the other one. So
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Speaker 2: we're like, I'm going to pretend that time doesn't exist
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Speaker 2: at all, But really that's a reflection of avoidance and
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Speaker 2: avoiding having a healthy relationship with time within which we
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Speaker 2: are we are also subject to and in inter relationship
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Speaker 2: with time. Will we will get on?
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Speaker 1: What does that mean? What does that look like? Does
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Speaker 1: that mean it feels it feels like anxiety is push
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Speaker 1: Is that the bottom of that? Does that mean being more?
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Speaker 1: Are conscious of the present moment, appreciative of the present moment?
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Speaker 1: You know? How do we do that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, so this is part of the larger conversation
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Speaker 2: about decolonization.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: So, in my own healing journey, as I've developed more
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Speaker 2: and more of a secure relationship with each of these
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Speaker 2: other gates of attachment, I've been able to place myself
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Speaker 2: in a more expansive cosmology, and I've surrounded myself with
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Speaker 2: people and beings and beings who live within and experience
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Speaker 2: themselves within a larger cosmology. And yes, there's that mindfulness piece,
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Speaker 2: but there's also that expanded awareness piece. Yeah that when
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Speaker 2: I'm in front of the mountains and the mountain ranges
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Speaker 2: here in Alaska, I feel infinitely small in ways that
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Speaker 2: are humbling and yet expansive, because those mountains say to
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Speaker 2: me that they have seen the rise and the fall
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Speaker 2: of empires, and they have seen the comings and goings
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Speaker 2: of ecosystems and glaciers, and they are big enough to
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Speaker 2: hold all of my existential woes and worries and egoic concerns,
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Speaker 2: and they will be here long after any of us will,
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Speaker 2: you know, we'll ever be here, And that for me
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Speaker 2: is very grounding. There's a depthfulness in that wisdom that's
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Speaker 2: being offered.
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Speaker 1: When you were sharing about your journey on that and
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Speaker 1: the beginning of that journey, before you started your intense
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Speaker 1: healing process, you're healing journey. Is this the same yeah
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Speaker 1: as that person? This would that seem Linda have been
24:05
Speaker 1: able to stand in front of those mountains and appreciate them, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: feel them in the same way.
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Speaker 2: In the same but different way. There would have been
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Speaker 2: that sense of or absolutely, I mean that was that
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Speaker 2: Linda back there back I remember my first trip to Alaska.
24:23
Speaker 2: I had pitched a tent on the rear deck of
24:25
Speaker 2: a ferry, and the bioluminescence in the water increased the
24:30
Speaker 2: further north we went, and the air got cool, and
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Speaker 2: then I started to see mountains and the way in
24:39
Speaker 2: which I breathed changed. The way in which I experienced
24:43
Speaker 2: myself changed with the shift in the temperature and the
24:48
Speaker 2: experience of awe and wonder that was around me.
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Speaker 1: Since it's is beautiful, I mean, your half hour does
25:04
Speaker 1: not do this justice. So this is just a snippet
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Speaker 1: of this presentation that you're going to do through the
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Speaker 1: Wisdom Circle. So as we kind of wind down here,
25:19
Speaker 1: what is the work you're doing now? I mean, are
25:22
Speaker 1: you offering courses you're working one on one or in
25:24
Speaker 1: groups or what so.
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Speaker 2: I offer online classes in somatics, the nervous system, the body,
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Speaker 2: and trauma attachment neurodivergence. I teach through various folks as
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Speaker 2: well as with collectively rooted who work really closely with me.
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Speaker 2: I also offer in person retreats and workshops, offering psychodrama
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Speaker 2: structures which I learned from Bessel vander Cole Galicia Sky,
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Speaker 2: which they learned from Alpeso. I also combine that form
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Speaker 2: with intramuscular acatamene and also combine that with grief ritual
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Speaker 2: in the tradition of maladomasome with co facilitators who are
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Speaker 2: trained in that form specifically are a likely and their crew.
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Speaker 2: So it's very much experiential, transformative, deeply meaningful work held
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Speaker 2: within groups and within community.
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Speaker 1: The people who are listening to this, who are undoubtedly
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Speaker 1: going to be inspired by you and what you said today.
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Speaker 1: In terms of therapists, now new therapists, even therapists with
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Speaker 1: more experience, and in terms of people who are working
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Speaker 1: with trauma, what would you say to them? What would
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Speaker 1: you offer to them in terms of knowledge or education
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Speaker 1: that necessary to be working with people who've been experience,
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Speaker 1: who have experienced trauma.
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Speaker 2: I would say, keep doing your own work, keep doing
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Speaker 2: your own work. And because trauma is inescapability, so eventually
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Speaker 2: I encourage people to do the work around inescapable terror,
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Speaker 2: because that is that which is at the heart of trauma.
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Speaker 2: It's inescapability, and within escapability comes terror, and we need
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Speaker 2: to build our own capacity for terror as well as
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Speaker 2: fine containers that can hold that terror so that it
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Speaker 2: can move through us. And in this way we can
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Speaker 2: be with the starkness as well as the terror that
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Speaker 2: is in the nervous systems of so many of our clients,
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Speaker 2: that is outside of their awareness and staly outside of ours,
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Speaker 2: and yet is so much a part of the counter
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Speaker 2: transferential material and is also part of that which gets
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Speaker 2: unlocked and connects us to a depth in our own
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Speaker 2: nervous system and our own humanity. No yeah, And then
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Speaker 2: folks who are listening who aren't necessarily therapists, I offer
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Speaker 2: the words of William Stafford, who wrote the poem the
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Speaker 2: way it is, there is a thread. There is a thread.
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Speaker 2: You've follow It goes among things that change, but it
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Speaker 2: doesn't cha people. They wonder about what you are pursuing.
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Speaker 2: You have to explain about the thread while you hold it.
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Speaker 2: You can't get lost. Tragedies happen, people get hurt or die.
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Speaker 2: You suffer and get old. But nothing you do can
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Speaker 2: stop time on boat. But you never let go. No,
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Speaker 2: you don't ever let go of the thread. Mm hmmm yeah,
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Speaker 2: keep following that thread, my friends, keep following that thread.
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Speaker 1: Yeah awesome, Thank you so much for being here, or
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Speaker 1: we'll be in touch. Okay, bye bye