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Andy Stanley - Openhanded Leadership with Joel Thomas From the Vault · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go
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further faster. On today's podcast, we'll explore what happens when a key staff
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member leaves the team. Well Andy, Normally on the podcast we start with
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the principal and then find stories in our organization to illustrate it. But today's
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conversation actually started with a story and we thought it'd make a great, great
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podcast. Yeah, you know, one of the things I love about organization.
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We just started our twentieth year, so we're nineteen years old, and
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we have a lot of staff who've been here ten years, fifteen years.
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Every time we get together as an organization, we celebrate ten year and fifteen
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year anniversaries, so that's a lot of fun. But from time to time,
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you know, people who've been here a long time transition off the team.
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And today's story really revolves around a team member who's been here for sixteen
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and a half years who's transitioning off the team. Unless our audience think we're
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talking about him behind his back, he's actually here in the studio with this
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to help us tell his story. Now, before we jump into this,
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I realize, depending on what you do and what industry you're in, there
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are rules sometimes around how people leave, when people leave. I know,
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I have friends in the financial industry who when they change companies, once that
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becomes known, they know that immediately, you know, they come take their
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key card, they watch them clean out their desk, they walk them to
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the door. They don't leave with you know, thumb drives, they don't
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leave laptops. And that's understandable because there are industries where security is such a
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big deal that there's protocol. So we get that. But in most organizations,
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and certainly the kinds of organizations we're most familiar with and work with,
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it's not that stringent. But oftentimes the transition off a team, or especially
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when it's perceived to be moving toward what could be a competitor or a similar
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industry or a similar organization, it can get kind of dicey, It can
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get kind of nasty, and for those of you in our podcast audience,
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surprisingly enough, it can be just as bad in church world as it is
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in the marketplace, believe it or not. So in about two weeks,
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one of our key staff members leaves our organization actually to go to another church,
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and before he left. I just wanted us to talk about this transition
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and talk about the process because I think we've all learned something in this and
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hopefully our audience will learn some things as well. Andy, you mentioned that
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there are certain industries where there's very strict protocol when someone leaves the organization,
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but doesn't really matter what the industry is. That it can be dangerous to
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talk about leaving. Yeah, it can be dangerous when you start talking about
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leaving a division, a department within an organization, or leaving the organization altogether.
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If the wrong people hear that again, you know that could be your
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last day. So we've tried really hard, as we talk about when we
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talk about our staff behaviors, to be very open handed when it comes to
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people who work here. Nobody wants to work in a culture where people have
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to whisper. I mean, secrets are bad for organizations. Being secretive within
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a staff culture is bad for the staff culture. And we don't want to
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have a fear based organization. And so one of the most difficult areas to
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apply being open handed or not being secretive has to do with positions within the
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organization or the rumors that someone's thinking about leaving the organization. So recently,
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one of our key staff members had a great opportunity and he actually came to
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me to talk about it at the front end of the process, which is
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very uncharacteristic, But honestly, I was so honored by the fact that I
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was invited into the discussion on the front end, rather than being informed once
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the decision had been made. It really just I think it just opened up
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the conversation and took it to a really healthy place. And so that's what
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we're going to talk about. Andy, You use an interesting word there,
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What about the process made you feel honored? Well, you know, one
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of our staff values is remain open handed, and that applies to several areas
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of organizational life, but one of the areas that applies to is being open
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handed with the people who work for you, the people who work with you,
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and the people who report to you. Because within our organization, people
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are constantly moving in and out of divisions, departments, again across campus.
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So here's a situation where one of our key people is actually moving out or
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leaving the organization. And so the fact that he would trust me with that
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information, knowing that I'm the guy I mean, I'm the boss. I'm
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the one who say, well, hey, if you're not going to be
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loyal or if that's what you're thinking about doing, then you know, we'll
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give you two weeks. I mean, I'm the person that he should keep
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that information from the most honestly, but the fact that he felt like,
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hey, this open handedness is a value here, So why wouldn't I expect
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Andy to be open handed with my future? Well? Speaking of he,
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he is sitting right here. His name is Joel Thomas. Many of you
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are familiar with Joel and his involvement here at North Point. Joel, you've
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been around here for quite a while. I mean it feels like from the
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very beginning, probably what sixteen and a half years now, and you came
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in as an intern, right, that's correct. I started as an intern
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in the summer of nineteen ninety eight, and I was here when we moved
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into our very first facility here in ALFRETDA. I came on staff full time
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that next year. I've served in about four different apartments on multiple campuses,
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and most recently took Andy's place here as the lead pastor at North Point.
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Yeah, in twenty eleven, I realized that I could not, you know,
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oversee the entire organization and continue to give my undivided attention to one of
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our campuses. So I knew I needed to replace myself, which was one
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of the things we talk about here. And I felt like Joel was the
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guy. The problem was his sister worked at this campus, his wife worked
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at this campus, and his sister in law worked at this campus, which
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means he which meant he would become his sister, his wife, and his
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sister in law's boss. And so really, for almost a year, I
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put this decision off. I thought, Joel is the guy, but this
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is a terrible thing to do to his family, and you know, anybody
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anywhere would be like, Andy, you can't do that. So then I
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made a big leadership decision. I decided, you know what, if I
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go ahead and hire Joel, that will become his problem, not my problem.
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I appreciate that. So four years ago he stepped into my role at
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this organization. And then just a few months ago, Joel, you began
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this unexpected process. So tell us about that. Yeah, it's interesting.
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I wasn't really looking for another opportunity as far as I was concerned, I
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really believed I already had the best opportunity in the country. Anybody knows me
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well knows I mean that sincerely. And the truth was, this opportunity kind
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of came looking for me, and it was persistent, and I didn't take
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it seriously at first. This wasn't the first time some time someone called me
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primarily because of this place, not because of me, I know that,
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but typically I brushed them off. But something was different about this one.
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And God started speaking to me and my wife and through my wife, and
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honestly, it terrified me, and it was different, and soon we had
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several clear signs this was something the Lord really want us to be open to,
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and I just couldn't think of somebody had rather process it with than you,
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and I needed your wisdom. So that was a big part of why
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I came to you in the first place. And not only did you want
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to talk to me, you actually told this other group that you wanted to
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talk to me, and they were a little bit shocked by Yeah. Yeah,
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actually they when they officially wanted me to enter their process, I told
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them before I fished engage with them, that I needed to talk to you
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first, and that not only surprised them. I think it confused them at
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the same time. In fact, I remember one of the board guys that
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was visiting here in Atlanta saying to me, isn't that a little premature?
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I mean, are you sure you want to do that. We're not saying
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you're the guy. We just want you to come out and kind of go
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through our interview process. And I remember him telling me that he'd hate for
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me to create an awkward situation for myself, and well, I understood it's
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concern and even sort of appreciate it. I completely discounted and my response to
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him was that that's just not how things work around here. And Joel,
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I can understand the wisdom and that, and they were just trying to protect
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you. It's like, why tip your hat that you're considering something. If
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it doesn't work out, doesn't don't you lose a little bit of credibility with
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Andy? I mean that's just natural. Sure, yeah, And and that's
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why I said I I really appreciated their concern for me, but honestly,
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it just it never really entered my mind. I wasn't concerned about that.
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I never thought my job would be at stake, and as I said earlier,
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I really wanted to know what you thought, and I thought you could
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help coach me through this process. So you just want an issue. Well,
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I'm glad you felt like that's not how things work around here. And
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the reason I think they don't work that way around here is because I think
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we have a fundamental belief that that's not how things work anyway. That the
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whole idea that somehow, through being secretive and having imaginary conversations with our bosses
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and conversations at home and just all that angst and all that that stress that
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those things create, that it's really just better to keep those things out in
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the open. And granted, in certain industries and certain companies that can be
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dangerous, but I think ultimately it's better for the organization. I think ultimately
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it's even self serving to be, as we refer to it, being open
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handed, because as we've talked about before on this podcast, nobody owns anyone,
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every and somebody else far more, far wiser than I first said it
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that every staff member and every paid employee is a volunteer. Ultimately, everybody
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is really giving their time, cheer, using to show up, So that
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being the underlying principle in context, why would we need, ever in any
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industry or any company to create a sense of secretness around what a person ultimately
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wants to do? And I think what made this easy for me, Joel
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is, as you told me your story, I had to decide do I
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trust Joel's decision making process and do I believe what he's telling me? And
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if I trust Joel, and if I believe what he's telling me, why
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would I not enter into the conversation as a friend who's trying to make a
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really difficult decision, as opposed to responding to him as a boss who's trying
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to keep his team together. And I think that really is the fundamental difference.
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And I think every employer, every manager, every division director, every
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entrepreneur, when they find themselves in these discussions, they have to make that
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decision. Am I going to enter into this conversation in such a way as
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to try to protect myself, which, of course we're all tempted to do.
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I don't want to see Joel if I've told him that a thousand times,
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And that's part of the story later on. But at the same time,
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I've worked with this guy for so many years, why would I not
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just be human and enter into the conversation as a friend who's trying to make
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a really difficult decision. That's the nature of being open handed. But that's
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just the reality of every one of these transitions in any industry, in any
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company, And I just think it is almost self serving the way it ultimately
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unfolds in a staff and on a staff culture. And truthfully, your open
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handedness made it harder for me to leave exactly. I just said it was
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self serving. It wasn't exactly guilt, but it was almost guilt, and
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honestly, it almost worked. But the truth is, when you prioritized me
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over the organization, it made it so much easier for me to prioritize the
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organization over myself and the transition. As you know, I told you everything,
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we talked, we texted all along the way. I was so blown
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away way how you did not try to control the decision, the process,
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the messaging. I remember when I called you before the staff meeting announcement and
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said, Andy, is there anything you want me to say or you don't
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want me to say? And you were like, no, you say whatever
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you want. You tell them anything you want tell them exactly what happened,
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and your lack of desire to try to control the process, no deadlines,
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no pressure. It was just extraordinary. And other places, I've heard the
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stories. You've heard the stories when you bring up leaving, you're out the
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door, and I never felt that at all. Andy, as Joel and
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I have talked about his experience and how you helped him process this, he
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talked about the conversation you guys had talk a little bit about what you remember
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from that conversation. Well, first of all, I was completely shocked.
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It really took me by surprise. I didn't think I mean not that I
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didn't think people were after Joel. I think people are after all of our
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key staff all the time, because I think we have incredible people. So
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that didn't surprise me. What surprised me was that this group had stayed after
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him as long as they had, and then he was considering it, and
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I didn't take it personally, and I just immediately again turned on the switch
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of here's an incredible person who has a big decision. How can I help?
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And it really was easier than you might imagine for me to be open
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handed about this, and in fact, so much so later on, I
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had to circle back around and assure him I did not want him to leave.
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We can talk about that in just a few minutes. When Joe finished
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telling me a story and explaining, you know, what he was thinking and
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what he was feeling, I told him, I said, you know,
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basically, when people are looking at a transition, it's generally one of three
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things. One is they're just restless and they just want something else to do
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where they are. They need a bigger challenge or more responsibility. We've all
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been there. We just get restless, we get bored. You know,
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we've been doing the same thing for too long. And I told him,
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I said, if if that's what it is, then I want to help
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you figure out what else you can do to exploit your talent and you know,
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the things that you bring to the table. But in addition to restlessness,
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sometimes it's just a better opportunity. I mean, sometimes a better opportunity
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comes along. People are perfectly happy doing what they're doing, but this is
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just a better opportunity. And I told him, if it's a better opportunity,
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then I'm for you. You know, how can I help you take
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advantage of that? And then I said but there's a third categor and sometimes
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we just know we are supposed to do something. It doesn't make any sense.
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It's not fiscally responsible, it's not what our families always wanted to do.
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Sometimes, as in this case, means moving someplace you never dreamed of
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moving. Nothing about it makes sense, But you can't get it out of
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your head, you can't get it out of your heart. You just know
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you are supposed to do it. So I laid out those three things to
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Joel, and I said, Joel, after listening to this story, I
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think it's the third one. I said, Now you've got to decide.
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I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but you know, I
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don't feel like you're restless. I don't think you're looking for another opportunity.
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I've never since that, and I just think you just can't. This thing
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has gotten hold of you and it's not going to let go. And this
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may be that odd third thing where you just have to do something you know
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you're supposed to do, even though you may not be able to explain it.
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And then that conversation ended with an amazing encouragement of you to say,
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hey, you're only going to figure this out if you go out and explore
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it. And so, with your blessing and your encouragement, that's what I
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did. Yep. But I didn't pay for your plane ticket. Nope.
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So Joel, you went out and met with these people, got all the
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information, came back. Still you struggled with clarity, still struggled with the
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decision, and you had another meeting with Andy, And in that meeting you
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told me about a question he gave you that that was very clarifying. Talk
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a little bit about that. Yeah, Honestly, at that point when we
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met that second time, I didn't know what to do, and I didn't
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know what we would do. And then Andy asked me this really clarifying question.
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He said this, He said, if they were to call you today
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and tell you they found somebody else, would you be relieved or disappointed?
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And that's sort of just like cut through all of it. And I knew
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right away. I didn't want to answer right away, partly because it was
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just a hard question for me to answer, and I saw it was a
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hard question to answer out loud. You knew the answer. I knew the
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answer, and I wasn't sure if I was okay with the answer truthfully,
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but it was a great question. And I said, man, that's a
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great question. You said, so which is it? And I was like,
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you know, honestly, I think I would be disappointed. And the
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truth was, I didn't think I knew, but I did, And in
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an instant when he asked me that question, I knew the answer, and
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it gave me the confidence that I wasn't crazy, because I thought I was
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crazy along the way, but this was such a difficult decision, and most
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of the way it made very little sense to us. But in that moment,
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regardless of how I felt about it, clarity came with that question.
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Andy, I heard about a funny exchange you had with Sandra over Joel's leaving
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that maybe a result of taking open handedness a little too far. Yeah,
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that night I went home and told her about the conversation and she asked me
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how I responded. So I suddenly, I just, you know, kind
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of entered into it like he's a friend trying to make a decision, and
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you know, I was just very neutral and just listening and wanted to help
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him make the right decision. And she looked at me and she said,
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so you think he left there thinking you want him to leave. She said,
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it sounded like you were so neutral. He may have left there thinking,
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wow, Andy's kind of glad I'm leaving. I said, you know
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what, You're probably right because I knew that was not the time to ask
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tough questions. That was the time to listen. That was not the time
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to say what about? What about? And to throw up all the organizational
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reasons he shouldn't leave. If I left all of that out of the conversation,
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I really was just trying to be so open handed and ask good questions
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and help him process. She said, well, I think you need to
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go back to work tomorrow and tell him. But Joel, I don't want
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you to leave. Yeah. You followed me into my office after leadership team
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that Dan. I remember you sat down, You looked me straight in the
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eye and said, I don't want you to leave. You're so valuable to
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organization, and that meant so much to me on a lot of levels.
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But I think if you hadn't told me that, Andy, that could have
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allowed some doubts to enter into my mind, doubts as to whether you really
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believe me or not, whether I really had value in this organization or not
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doubts about whether I could do this, this thing that I really felt God
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was leading me to do. And the and the truth is, while I'm
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still terrified, I'm more confident in what God has gifted me to do as
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a leader, as a pastor. Because you decided to circle around and communicate
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that to me, you can thank Sandra for that. Thank you, Sandra,
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But I've told you one hundred times since then, I don't want you
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to leave. Well, Andy, as we close today, do you have
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any final thoughts? Yeah? I would just close by saying this. In
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every organization, there is either a culture of secrecy or there's not. And
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leaders create that. We just do. Whether you're the division director or the
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department director, or you run a franchise or you own the company. You
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create whether or not people feel like they can talk about their futures or not.
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And the bottom line is this, people who feel free to talk about
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their new future or their potential new future often find contentment in their current circumstances
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because a big part of a great job is who you work with. I
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mean, it just is. People take less money all the time to work
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for great people, and great people aren't afraid of other people leaving. They're
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just not great people who have confidence in their own leadership, great people who
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love their company and love their culture. They're just not afraid of what people
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are going to do. So again, I think it's a win for the
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person that's thinking about leaving. I think it's a win for the person who's
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going to experience that loss. It's a win for everybody who's watching the process,
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because as people experience the process of people leaving their division, or their
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department, or their company, they know, hey, one day, my
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time's going to come and that's what it's going to look like. So essentially,
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this is about modeling, it's about creating culture, and I think at
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the end of the day, being open handed, especially as it relates to
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people leaving an organization, is critical to a healthy staff culture. Well,
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Andy, thanks so much for today, and Joel, thank you for being
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here as well. Even though you're leaving, you will always be family,
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and to all our listeners, we just want to thank you for joining us.
18:45
To hear more from Andy on leadership, please visit Andy Stanley dot com