Latest / The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+ / It's Never Too Late to Choose Yourself: Finding Yourself Again After 50

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It's Never Too Late to Choose Yourself: Finding Yourself Again After 50 · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Lauren Crawford.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is for gay men over 50 who sense there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: These are not conversations about decline, they are conversations about becoming.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you're here.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we're here again with another fabulous gay man who is going to share with us some of his journey.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: And just to recap that these stories aren't about celebrities coming on and sharing all of their wisdom.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have it all figured out.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're here to tell real stories that inspire and uplift and provide some information and a sense of building a sense of community.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's what this is all about.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome Matt Fugate, who I want to provide a little introduction to, and then I'm going to hand it over to Matt to tell us a little bit more about himself.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So Matt is a high higher education leader and advocate for cognitive diversity, and he brings a deeply personal lens to his work, navigating identity, resilience, and purpose across both professional and personal spaces.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: He is passionate about living authentically, challenging norms, and creating space for others to do the same at every stage in life.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's pretty powerful.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us more about who you are, Matt.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's kind of a tall order, isn't it?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I have been in education, in the education sphere for the last, oh gosh, going on almost 30 years now, which education was a second career, so a little bit of a pivot for me.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I my interest in neurodiversity comes from my own experiences, realizing that I had was an ADHD late in life in adulthood.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And after I got into education, ironically, which information would have been so helpful earlier in life had I known it, it put a lot of the puzzle pieces into place for me.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: But as a result, I I've kind of made it my mission, my goal, my purpose in life is to, you know, kind of lift the veil of ambiguity around what it means to be neurodiverse and take away, move from this deficit-based perspective into one that highlights the strengths and the positives and the tremendous things that our neurodiverse community really brings to the table.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've spent a lot of years in the research area as I moved into higher education, and my own work has come to highlight that our our neurodiverse students bring a lot of strengths, interests, talents that tend to have higher levels of creative thinking skills.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's starting to be recognized in a number of industries, especially in the technology field, where they're acting where you're seeing companies actively seeking out our neurodiverse populations for that very reason.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm passionate about this work.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like in my own life, I've done a lot of my own personal work through my own journey.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to, I want to see others have have that fulfillment in their in their day-to-day lives.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I've come to realize just in the last few years working in in coaching is that a lot of very successful people have ADHD or some version of a neurodivergent condition and are functioning at very high levels.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that that to me is exciting.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's incredible because I think especially those of us at of of a certain age of grew up in a time period coming through school where if you were cognizant, if you had a a cognitive difference, it was seen as as a drawback, a deficiency.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And again, in my own work, I talk about taking the disability and the deficiency, the dysfunction out of the equation and really focusing on the amazing capabilities that that our neurodiverse community has.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's a parallel there for me around coaching, because you know, we we can be in a very pathologizing kind of culture where everything needs to be fixed and our traumas need to be, you know, and I'm not downplaying any of us who have lived through trauma.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think as gay men, we all have some degree of trauma within us, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: But with coaching, I think it's it's like meeting you where you are at now and how do we springboard forward to the next, and and that aligns also with with the midlife journey, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like how do we springboard into this most beautiful time of our life and not see it in a deficient through that deficiency land?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing that needs to be fixed.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we just need to move more into our fullness of being.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's pivot a little bit to the pivot.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So um, one of the things like we all of you who I'm speaking with, we had a pre-conversation.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what I found in a lot of those pre-conversations were the interesting pivot, transforming moment or whatever it may be that individuals went through.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, what was that like for you?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: How did you come to a turning point in your life and what did that look like?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I thought about this a lot, and I don't know that anybody can narrow down any one single turning point.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think at various stages in our lives, you know, we face different moments of truth almost.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, my most recent moment of truth that it coincided with hitting middle age and and coming into my late 40s, 50s, and and you know, now here I am in the tail end of my 50s.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, really, the big realization moment was about four years ago.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And really, it started four years before that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, it's the analogy of the frog dropped into a pot of water and gradually the heat comes up, but the frog doesn't realize it because you adapt to the environment.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what I didn't realize, I was in a very toxic environment.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was slowly boiling up in it, and I didn't even realize it.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then COVID hit.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was a moment, a moment of that gave us all this opportunity to stop and kind of take inventory and reflect.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And after we came out of the lockdowns and started to get back to our quote-unquote normal lives, I started to realize that I was in this toxic environment.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it really, for me, it came to a and the toxic environment being work.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I should, I should clarify that.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Home life, great.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to report that my husband and I are 30 years and one day today together.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: So all good on that front.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not that there haven't been ups and downs, but you know, we we joked during COVID that if we could survive two years in the house together, day in and day out, we think we're pretty solid.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I we came out of COVID.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I went back to my workplace and it became quickly clear to me that that I had hit a point and I needed to do something.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I should say through that, I I have struggled with my weight my entire life.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I had gotten up to my heaviest weight of my entire life.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was at over 240 pounds.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I those these are external signs that something's wrong.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that I had that something had gone gotten out of control.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I, after a lot of conversations with my husband, one day he looked at me, he's like, I don't care if you ever work again.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: He said, go out, do consulting or or whatever.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, you have got to get out of this environment.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good for you, it's not healthy.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: What did that moment feel like for you?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Your your sort of inner dialogue is being affirmed by your partner.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it was I I don't know what this feels like, but I would guess, I would almost guess I would liken it to like the prisoner who feels like who find who hears they're about to be released on parole.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, it was like, oh wait, that's an option.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, it was it there was there was a certain level of freedom and relief that said, okay, I can make a different choice.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're in these moments, you feel trapped.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so that realization that I had his support to say, okay, this is a change, this is a time to change.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever that next chapter looks like, fine, but be happy.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and it paid off about the same time.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I got a call from a friend who was chancellor at a small private university who said, I, you know, I've got an idea.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I want you to listen to me.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're you're entrenched where you are.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to come and and and help me run the university.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I we talked about it, decided it was the right move to make.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a very grandiose position, but it's not.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's there were a lot of sacrifices that had to be made.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: It actually was a bit of a pay cut initially to come and do this.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was a small private university that had just started up in a very specialized field in cognitive diversity.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it matched all of my areas.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we took that, we took that leap of faith.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I left the bad environment, the toxic, the toxic place I was in and went to this.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And about six months later, my husband and I were, I don't know, in the kitchen somewhere doing something around the house, and we were laughing and joking.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he stopped and he looked at me.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, I have Matt back.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yay.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What do you mean?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: He said, He said, I had lost you for quite a few years, and you're finally back.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're who you were when we met all those years ago.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was that was that light bulb moment of, oh my God, that that was that was the moment that I realized I was the frog, the boiling pot of water.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I hadn't realized it until that moment.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's something really powerful here in what you're sharing, and the listeners and viewers, you know, heed this message, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because in midlife, this is often the angst that comes up.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: That on some level you use the word caged, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: On some level, we feel that, but we don't necessarily feel it consciously.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this, there's a heaviness to us, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And an uncertainty, a lack of direction, a frustration, and it can show up in a whole bunch of different ways, you know, depending on you and your personality.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: But when decisions are made and you break yourself free from that energy, the universe will start to align things.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's no surprise that that that telephone call came.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's no surprise that you moved into this new position and and not came back, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is how the multidimensional reality that we live in works, but we've not been trained to think that way.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: We've been trained to think about you have your goal, you have your responsibility, you're in your job.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like this, I'm doing this because we we we think and experience in such a little way of who and what we are as beings, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's my goal is to help to inspire people to please get out of that little box.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, please remember to to that you can still dream, regardless of how old you are.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: You already started to allude to this or or explain what you experienced freedom from.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just dive into that a little bit more.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: So as you made this transition and you came back to being Matt, what were you being liberated from?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like what were you able to leave behind?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So going way back to the beginning, you know, I uh am the son of a small, small town Presbyterian minister.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the Midwest.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: When I say small town, population 800, small town, everybody knew everybody else.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And growing up gay in that type of environment was difficult for me.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I I say all of that, I was blessed because when I did come out, my parents were like, oh, yeah, we know that, you know, and you're still the same person today that you were yesterday, and we love you.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And while when they were alive, they had a had a tremendous relationship with my husband.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as as gay men, we carry a lot of uh a lot of baggage that is unseen, and it builds over time.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this latest pivot gave me an opportunity to to let go of a lot of that baggage.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Gave me permission to, you know, I think for a lot, a lot of us, there's this idea that, you know, once we we get into this this mode, this professional mode, who we are.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, we're in the box and we can't get out of the box.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have to focus ahead.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, this this moment was an opportunity for me to let go of a lot of the pressure that I felt of who I thought others thought I had to be.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized the only person I need to be is me.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've got I've got a small handful of people that I am accountable to and for, but the primary person that I'm accountable to and for is myself.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And realizing that opened up a whole new realm of understanding.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, from one small town boy to another.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up, I thought my town was small.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was about 5,000 people, 800.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's village like.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the the loneliness, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think most of us go through that thing, like, oh, it's I I'm this is definitely quotes for people who are listening.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: What's wrong with me?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's that's sort of part of the narrative when we're having these kind of I don't get it, you know, things.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're in a small town and there's no reference points, and back in the 70s, there was nothing on media that you would see that that would help you figure that out.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, getting through.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what you said about what's imprinted because of those experiences in us that shows up in our 50s, 60s, and 70s, that scarring, those wounds that are still there.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I know in the last just a few years for me, a lot of that is being healed as well.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: So kudos to you, you know, for for this journey.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, had you not been able to make this pivot?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what was that life, that cage costing you?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it uh it was costing me in the moment happiness, peace.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the ultimate price, I'm not sure my marriage could have withstood it if I had stayed.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Again, and I don't know that I would have known why.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I I didn't realize how much I had changed, or or how much I had of myself I and I guess not really changed.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was still there, obviously, but how much I was burying down.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I for better or worse, I I've always been the gregarious outgoing one, and that piece of me stopped.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: I started to isolate myself, and again, I didn't even realize this is so powerful because you know, having these conversations, this is a reality for all of us men going through middle life, it's not simply our our gay brothers, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it can impact us even more in a in a in a much deeper way because of some of those earlier issues that we we maybe haven't fully resolved and aren't even conscious of that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that I would I would share too is having been in a career for 25 years, and and I I made an exit strategy for for that, you know, like it's like you know, I was fortunate in one of those jobs where I had a pension, so it needed to be like number of years work number.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that was when I was you know 56-ish and a half.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: But when I left that position, it literally took me, I think about three months before I felt like it was like I needed to be in the shower every day, just letting go of more and more of that kind of toxic ick that had been, oh my god, become a part of me over 25 years.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: I knew it on some level, just like you were saying, but on another level, I didn't realize how deep it was in like within my cells, even, you know, and and this is someone who meditates and has all these beautiful tools and techniques.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So again, this is a really powerful message, you know, for for folks to hear.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you did all of this, you made the transition, you you found a new position, your husband found his his partner back.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: So now what does that uh liberate you to do?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you were liberated from some stuff.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're finding freedom to do what and to be what?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think first of all, absolutely.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like I and probably even for the first time, I am my most authentic self.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's the the biggest piece.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Freedom to do what in the next chapter of my life?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, good things are happening at work, we're growing, and new opportunities are arising.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I look at at, you know, on a personal level, we're we're in a a time where really I think we're in a my husband and I are probably in the best place we've ever been.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a certain liberation in that over here, you know, of knowing that this isn't the last chapter, it's just a chapter.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: A chapter.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what's really powerful about what you're saying is think of how many people are in relationships, longer-term relationships, and they're like, oh, you know, and and all of a sudden it's the relationship's the problem.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, maybe not, you know, maybe it's those other, maybe it's that job that you're in that you think you that you're beholden to that's actually so toxic it's not making you yourself, and yet the relationship gets blamed.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would be interesting to know how many relationships end because it's actually the individual not doing that deeper self-inquiry, which is what I'm all about at this stage, self-inquiry, right?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is really the root of the problem.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not the relationship itself, or it's not that other external if it's not a relationship, you know how we tend to blame.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, let's hold up that mirror and figure out what's going on.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I also think that that one of the things that has changed for me in the last few years.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is again, I'll go back to something I said earlier.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I I gave I started to give my per myself permission to put myself first.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, for for so many years, everything in our lives together was a week.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think both of us, and that's not a bad thing, but it became for both of us, everything was a week.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we we both come to a point where of realization where it we it's okay to give ourselves permission to do something just for me, and he can do something just for him, and that's okay.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that something doesn't necessarily need to be opening the relationship and having sex with a oh no, no, no.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that too can become well, here's how we're gonna make this work differently or better.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like maybe, but maybe that's that's a uh um that's a symptom of something else that's actually at no judgment on on no judgment, no shade at all.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, for me, it it became focusing on my health and my well-being.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: The other piece of that coming out of COVID is suddenly I was on cholesterol, hype, I had you know, cholesterol medication, blood pressure medication, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I I made that decision to to okay, I've got it, I've got it, I I've made this change professionally.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now I've got to start making some changes personally.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I again that that acceptance of it's okay to put make yourself a priority.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I made that a priority.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I got I I got a a trainer and a nutritionist who and for the last two years have have changed how I navigate my relationship with my own body.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so that has been that has been the piece that you know, my my husband knows my gym time is my sacred time.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's your time, right?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's my time.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's nothing self-ish in I, you know, exactly.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: The we is great, like you said, but it's not all we, you know, and if you're and if you're so enmeshed in the we, what happens when that partner is gone?
• 24:36
  unknown: Right.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're still gonna have an identity.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: You you there is an I, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: That that we all need to uh dive into and and to figure out, you know, what is it that's lighting me up?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I see in you and in describing where you're at right now, so much vibration and energy.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's incredibly beautiful.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Just imagine had you not made that shift.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to think of it.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I and I don't I don't think of it.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's sobering.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: So so this is why you know you sharing this is so powerful.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like you we we don't know who whose ears and eyes are gonna you know connect with this message, but it's impactful and and I think it's really, really, really powerful.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Find the wisdom trust on school school.com slash the dash wisdom dash trust slash about website is wisdomtrust50.com.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Find us on Substack, the WisdomTrust.substack.com.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're not watching this on YouTube, youtube.com slash at the Wisdom Trust 50.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: See you on those platforms.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: In m moving forward with all this stuff, there's kind of like a leveling up of who we are when we kind of shift gears, right?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit about that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is it that you so you've got a trainer, you're doing that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how is your life different today than it was, say, pre-COVID?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that I move through life lighter.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not physically lighter, yes, physically lighter, but but emotionally lighter.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I hold on to that.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, it may sound woohoo, whippy-dippy, all of those things, but you know, I I take I take the time to take my coffee outside, you know.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm blessed to live in a beautiful environment.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, we have a bayou running through our backyard.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I take my coffee out and I do my grounding in the morning, and I sit outside and I I watch the sunrise come up over the bayou, and I I do all the, you know, I take I take those moments of just kind of centering myself each day.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not to say that there aren't bad days, there aren't days where you struggle, and and that's all there, but I am now equipped to handle those days in a way that I've never been.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that would that that's for me, I I want to hold on to that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go into this next phase of my life holding on to that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I I have a joy that is bigger than I think it's I've ever had.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I want to spend time with my friends.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I want to spend time with family.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we just recently bought a lake house, uh, and one of the goals that I had and and my husband agreed with is I wanted this to be a place where our friends and family could just be together and let the rest of, you know, during our time there, let the rest of the world go.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a space for us to all be together and enjoy, you know, the beauty around us, and for it to be a place where our our nieces and nephews would see as a a place for them to take their friends and just an opportunity to create this beautiful set of new memories as we go into this next phase of life.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you know, one of the things when you said I just feel lighter, this is really I again really powerful because when we start doing uh some of that deeper uh connection, that self-awareness stuff, it can feel uh heavy initially.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: But then when we do things like like you're saying, shifting up your routines, eating, eating, eating differently is gonna make you feel lighter.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we get into these habits of how we eat, for example, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then it becomes comfort.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: But what I'm what I'm trying to say is when we start to meditate or do yoga or do some breath work, we we will start to feel lighter physically and energetically, and that can freak the F people out, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like I don't like this.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm used to feeling heavy and on all levels, like physically, mentally, emotionally, because it's just become a pattern.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when we start to break that pattern and we start to live and feel lighter, initially it's a bit of a freak show.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of good to have a reference point, like whether that's a trainer, whether that's someone who's been on the journey before, whether it's what you're talking about in community, creating, you know, this environment now with your summer home or what have you, where you're you're talking about family community, but there's also this community, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Where we, especially gay men who maybe don't have the husband, don't have you know the the summer place to go to, who are feeling alone and isolated by connecting and experiencing things a little bit differently, giving yourself permission to do that, that can be that lighting, lightening up of a heaviness, which I think is so important.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, again, I I always joke, we we live in, we happen to live in a neighborhood that has a high population of gay men and women, as well as as many, many straight couples and and kids, and and it's just this beautiful, welcoming, diverse community.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: We moved here now about 12 years ago.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was in the middle of the of the the heavy state of life.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I have to credit the the the community that we have here because that has helped me reconnect with myself.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, no matter no matter what your your situation, people only make your life richer.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you just have to be willing to let them in.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, and that's hard.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: That can be hard.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's very hard.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Something you said earlier too made me think about being able to receive.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us will we can be really big givers, I'm you know, guilty as charged.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then when when something is kind of like, how do I open myself to to a to be able to receive kindness, love, support, you know, all of that that stuff is is yeah, essential as well.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and it is, it's about giving yourself permission to open up.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the piece that's hard because I think, especially again, you know, as gay men of a certain age, I think we have learned to shield part of ourselves from others.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: As it it it was our necessary defense mechanism to hide in some capacity, to mask.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about masking it when we talk about neurodiversity.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: As gay men, we mask.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got to we've got to allow ourselves to take that off.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and that that pattern, and it is a pattern, and then and then again, it becomes familiar.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and the thing about letting people in is kind of related, right?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been there, I was the angry guy for so many years in my life.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when that's your energy field, well, guess what?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: You attract more of that and you repel the nice people.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're if you're miserable about your lot in life, guess what your energy, because we are just energy, we're pushing people away.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be drawing in more misery.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's saying misery loves company, and you're gonna be pushing away some of the the things that you ultimately want.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, this is just that that little that lens of self-awareness and how we can start to maybe, oh yes, and not beat ourselves up when we have those revelations, but just like, yeah, maybe I can let go of some of that shit.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Letting go is hard.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Letting go is really hard because it's a habit.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've we built a habit to hold on.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so give again, I've said this a few times, but I I had to give myself permission to just let it all go and stop worrying about what somebody else thought.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh gosh, you know, and some of us were programmed with that so much as when we were kids.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my mom used to say to me, What would your grandmother think?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, anyway, and then but then that gets implanted in us, and then on the subconscious level, we're we're always like, Well, what are we gonna think?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and we don't even know we're operating.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: It stops being about what would grandmother think, and what would the person in the cubic cubicle next to me think, or what would my neighbor think, or what would this stranger who I don't even know their name, and I'm just passing them on the street, but what might they be thinking?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, and you know, just to put a bow on this part, but that's even about me being bold enough to, and I'm talking about me being bold enough for me, yeah, anyone else, to step into the coaching realm with gay men over 50.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was not willing to go there until I was.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and so it's all a part of a of a journey, right?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to be kind and empathetic with ourselves and and with others, you know.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, yeah, uh, supporting them in their journeys because everyone's on their own little path.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: When we start projecting what those paths should look like, it's like, no, let's just understand everyone's doing their own thing and doing their best.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: So if we can be supportive instead of critical, you know, one of the things that came up in some of the conversations I was having before starting the podcast was yeah, I'm interested in community, but I don't want to be hanging out with a bunch of bitchy fags.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, yeah, no, we don't need that energy because there's enough of that out there.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's create spaces where people can feel uplifted, and on that where you can give yourself grace and give others grace.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: On that note, how are you now in this new stage of life?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: How are you having fun?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: How are you showing up for yourself differently?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: You've already given some examples, but anything else you want to share on that?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I am lucky that in my current position, I get to travel a lot.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes that's exhausting.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, I have to, I'm in Houston.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've all seen the Houston Airport on the national news lately.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have to travel on Saturday.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not looking forward to getting up at 2:30 in the morning to go to the airport to queue in line for a 9.30 flight, but that's where we are right now.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can't do anything about it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I I I'm embracing that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I I love that I'm I'm getting to spend a lot of time traveling across the country, meeting a lot of different people and around the world.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I just came back from a trip to Turkey and actually Saudi Arabia for a conference where I was speaking.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that that hit me, especially in Turkey, was this sense that everywhere we went, people had a very different view of current events in the world.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: There was something liberating about that.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in an area that is, you know, literally part of the cradle of civilization, and you're you're you've got families who have been there for hundreds of years, thousands of years in this area.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I had one gentleman I was talking to, he said, he goes, you know, all the all the struggles that are going on right now, there's always going to be those.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that we've learned is that in time, it all changes and it all works out.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something, again, liberating about that of like, okay, this is a blip in time.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is a moment in time.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and that has given me this new perspective.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I think, I think we spend a lot of times, and and this to your point, the I know we're in the what are you doing to have fun?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: For me, this is fun of of taking down the barriers.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: We we have are spending a lot of time focused on what separates us.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I am in this moment in life where I'm seeing we've got more in common and more that that across cultures, across, across all the divisions, gay, straight, you know, nationalities, race, ethnicity.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know all of these, you know, DEI is a bad word, but it these days, but it won't always be.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't before, it won't be again, because that's how we find the humanity in each of us, and that's how we come together and break down these barriers.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we just have to give ourselves permission to do that.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Give ourselves permission to talk to people who have different views than ours or have a different life, lifestyle than ours.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's how we learn and build understanding.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm loving that.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Challenge yourself to be curious and curiosity can be a little bit lost, right?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and when we can come back to that curiosity, yeah, because what if someone is the the different political stripe than you are, and you you so to say, let's have a conversation, let's not yell, right?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And let's just, you know, and maybe politics isn't the best example right now because probably where you live.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in Canada, we have our own meeting challenges.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, just being curious about others.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I've been a lone wolf so much of my life, and so one of my challenges at this stage, I'm 60, is to have have conversations and to ask questions, um not make any assumptions or not be in my little shell.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's oh my god, I I experienced so much amazing growth just in every conversation.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's something to glean, there's something to learn about that person, and then and then in yourself, what's reflected back to you.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it it it's it's amazing.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I just I just look at this, these, this next phase of life with with excitement, with you know, with joy.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're joyful and you've you know allowed yourself in, because really a lot of those barriers are self-made and we can break them down just like we built them up, right?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Then your resonance, that's what's going to change the world.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is where we get lost, you know, because we're following the news and listening to all this doom and gloom.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say, shut that shit off, right?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because you don't need that toxic infusion.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: But what yeah, once you start to radiate a little bit more, that's the rippling out that people feel on an unconscious level.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think real change is gonna come from.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about arguing and fighting with each other and doing hideous things, but and so as gay people, let's let's be part of that, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, yeah, be open to lighting up and just shifting the energy.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Moving into our final little segment here.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is the wisdom moment.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: So what is it that you would like to perhaps share with the listeners, the viewers?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, something that they could maybe take away from this if they're uh if an individual is feeling maybe invisible or stuck or or just an uncertainty that can happen in this stage in life, and especially in this stage in life as a gay man, any any insights you would like to share.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think you know, it's it's hard, you can't you can't give a blanket.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's no one magic pill, no one good strategy.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think if I were to have one wish, it would be that that everybody just kind of take a moment for some self-reflection.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when you're feeling stuck, take the time to to stop.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we go automatically into fix it mode, and we don't take the time to stop and reflect.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so take inventory.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: What what is it what is it that is in your life that is bringing you down?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it in your life that brings you joy?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who are the people that bring you joy?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Give yourself permission to let go of people who are dragging you down, who even if those people are family, and it's hard, it's hard.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes your family of choice is your best support system, and I've been blessed in life to have I had a strong, a strong family, blood family to, and my parents to to draw strength from and to have support.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been my family of choice, my community, the people around me who have really held me up in these in these years and have helped me find myself again.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: So take stock.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's bringing you down?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's pulling you under?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are those those anchors that are holding you back?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And where is your joy?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: What what sparks your joy?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And who are the people who can help you move forward?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, those are all really powerful questions.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: And just in to put a fine tuning on that, what I would recommend if you are kind of feeling a little bit in, you know, any of those things, lonely, disconnected, uncertain, you know, at a crossroads, not sure where it's going to go, shut everything off.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And grab a pen and paper and just start to write and just see what comes up.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like start start with some of the questions you just referenced, but it can just also be a free-flowing let let stuff out, let it move through you.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you can be pleasantly surprised how much will come through.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: This this thing here will try to resist, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because it wants to control the part of like you made this comment earlier about fixing things.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: We as men, we tend to want to fix first.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very left brain, rational, kind of process y thing.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: If we give ourselves permission to move over to that right brain, which is spacious and creative, left brain is language, right brain is more imagery and things.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's why going into nature feels so good because it's kind of like there's not language here, there's spacious experience and beauty.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: But just as a as a tool, what you know, what people can do.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: If you are in one of those situations where you're not feeling like this, the lightness that we've been talking about, start journaling and you make it a make it make a commitment to yourself.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do this for 15 minutes every day.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: If you do it at the same time every day, it becomes a pattern, and then that becomes a habit, and then that becomes you know one of these tools in your life that will profoundly change things if you add it.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, you know, for me, part of that is part of that process is that morning ritual of going out and grounding, walking outside in my bare feet and taking my coffee out there and watching the sunrise and and just having that taking just, and it doesn't have to be long, like you said, 15 minutes of just time to quiet solitude.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone's saying, I don't have 15 minutes by James Jam Pack, you set your alarm 15 minutes earlier and you're exactly that time.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's a choice.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is a choice.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: Any final words?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just wish everybody listening, watching all the best.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you find your joy.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Lauren, I love what you're doing, and thank you for for giving a space for for gay men to to build community and come together.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is important work.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we can do more of that here on the Substack channel where there's written pieces.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to comment and if there's other topics or issues you'd you'd like to see written about, and there'll also be some video stuff there eventually.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then a YouTube channel.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: So all of this, these beautiful podcasts are available on the YouTube channel as well, as well as other supportive materials.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: So great, thank you.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for for being here, Matt, and sharing this, you know, and uh real life experience and and stepping into this honesty and authenticity.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think you used that word earlier.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we become our authentic selves, especially if we're not even sure who that is anymore?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can, you know, you can be inspired by these conversations and and let them be a seed of something beautiful that's going to germinate and help you to grow into the best version of yourself.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, all good things.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for giving me the space and the time.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you to our guests today, and thank you for listening.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: If what you heard landed with you, if you felt seen, heard, inspired to make a shift, want to hear about it.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if you know another man over 50 who you think would benefit from hearing this, share it with them, please.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: This community grows when we show up for each other.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: You can find more essays on these topics, reflections, and such at our Substack account.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: Watch for other content on our YouTube channel, and stay connected to us through our school platform.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is where we engage and are building our community.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: For many of us, it's the moment life finally begins to open up.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're not alone in this, we're in it together.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you next time on the Wisdom Trust.