Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / What If We've Been WRONG About Emotionally Unavailable People? | Dismissive Avoidant Explained | E1

Transcript

What If We've Been WRONG About Emotionally Unavailable People? | Dismissive Avoidant Explained | E1 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:00
Speaker 1: People aren't random, They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
0:05
Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
0:09
Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
0:12
Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
0:16
Speaker 1: you can finally change it. I'm doctor Sarah.
0:19
Speaker 2: Hensley and I'm Randa Butcher.
0:21
Speaker 1: You think your life is random, it's not.
0:25
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Doctor Sarah Hensley Show.
0:29
Speaker 1: What if everything that the relationship community says about emotionally
0:34
Speaker 1: unavailable people is actually wrong? In this episode, I want
0:39
Speaker 1: to break down what it really means to be emotionally unavailable,
0:43
Speaker 1: how we can tell if someone's just immature or if
0:45
Speaker 1: they're really wounded, and how you can have the relationship
0:50
Speaker 1: you want if you find yourself already connected to one
0:53
Speaker 1: of them.
0:54
Speaker 2: So my first question is going to be, so, if
0:56
Speaker 2: someone's spent years consuming tons of relationship content online, then
1:02
Speaker 2: what is it that they need to start rethinking?
1:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think first of all, people use this
1:08
Speaker 1: blanket term avoidant. We actually have two types of avoidant attachment.
1:13
Speaker 1: We have the fearful avoidant and the dismissive avoidant. And specifically,
1:16
Speaker 1: in this episode, I really want to break down the
1:18
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant. They are the most misunderstood, villainized set of
1:22
Speaker 1: people I have ever found being talked about online.
1:27
Speaker 2: Often called narcissists, often.
1:28
Speaker 1: Called narcissists, They're not narcissists. Most of them are genuinely good,
1:34
Speaker 1: inherently good people. They just have no capacity for intimacy.
1:38
Speaker 1: And it's not their fault. Not that you should accept it.
1:41
Speaker 1: I don't want people to think that's what I'm saying.
1:43
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is, if someone truly learned from
1:47
Speaker 1: a very young, vulnerable age that emotions got them a
1:52
Speaker 1: painful reaction, rejection, dismissal, why would they be connected to
1:59
Speaker 1: their emotions in adulthood and why would they risk sharing
2:02
Speaker 1: them with other people? If they never had any exposure
2:07
Speaker 1: to being vulnerable and having these types of conversations, why
2:12
Speaker 1: would they all of a sudden be capable of doing
2:15
Speaker 1: this in their relationship. It's truly a capacity issue. So
2:19
Speaker 1: let's just let's just talk about you know, let's start
2:22
Speaker 1: from the beginning. Let's just talk Yeah, let's talk about
2:24
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant attachment, because let's face it, everybody in our
2:27
Speaker 1: community is obsessed with the dismissive avoidant. Yes, sess.
2:32
Speaker 2: Even the videos that you do on the dismissive avoidant
2:34
Speaker 2: just naturally get a little bit of.
2:36
Speaker 1: Better traction because people don't understand them. First of all,
2:42
Speaker 1: the dismissive avoidant grew up with what I call benign
2:45
Speaker 1: emotional neglect, only benign in terms of looking benign, not
2:50
Speaker 1: benign in terms of its consequences for their later ability
2:56
Speaker 1: to be intimate inside of relationships. It looks like ignoring
3:01
Speaker 1: your child emotionally looks benign. It looks like, oh, you're okay, honey,
3:05
Speaker 1: calm down. That's not something to throw a fit about.
3:09
Speaker 1: That is emotional neglect. Yeah, it is.
3:12
Speaker 2: It's a lot of parents don't recognize it.
3:14
Speaker 1: They don't. They're trying to teach their children to have
3:17
Speaker 1: grit and to be tough because life is tough, right,
3:19
Speaker 1: we want our kids to be able to survive a
3:21
Speaker 1: tough world. But to a two or three year old child,
3:26
Speaker 1: those emotions inside of their body feel really big and
3:29
Speaker 1: really valid, and they're reaching for connection for someone to
3:33
Speaker 1: see them and be like, I see that, this feels
3:35
Speaker 1: big for you, and I am here and I notice that,
3:38
Speaker 1: and you're okay, right, and instead they'll say, you're fine,
3:44
Speaker 1: stop crying, right, it's quit throwing a tantrum. They view
3:48
Speaker 1: it as just this negative behavior from a child that
3:52
Speaker 1: they want to squash because they have this view that
3:55
Speaker 1: these kids are going to grow up to be, you know,
3:58
Speaker 1: really soft and not be able to deal with things
4:01
Speaker 1: in life.
4:01
Speaker 2: And I think parents often make the mistake that it
4:05
Speaker 2: makes them emotional as well when they see their child upset. Yeah,
4:09
Speaker 2: and so it's just this natural thing to try to
4:11
Speaker 2: get them to calm down so that they can also
4:13
Speaker 2: calm down.
4:13
Speaker 1: Right, But it's our responsibility as parents to approach our
4:17
Speaker 1: children in a regulated state. And I think that's what
4:20
Speaker 1: attachment security really is. Mistake mistake. And so when a
4:27
Speaker 1: child has these big feelings in their body, right, like
4:30
Speaker 1: say they want the green cup instead of the blue cup.
4:32
Speaker 1: I got a three year old right totally to that,
4:36
Speaker 1: To that three year old that you know, green cup
4:38
Speaker 1: is everything, Give me the green cup. I don't want
4:40
Speaker 1: the blue cup. I want the green cup. You say, oh,
4:44
Speaker 1: it's just a cup. Who cares? Quit crying? Well, to
4:48
Speaker 1: that three year old, the color of the cup is
4:50
Speaker 1: the same thing as like you getting a raise at
4:53
Speaker 1: your job, right, in their body, so you telling them
4:57
Speaker 1: just quit what has to happen there in order for
5:01
Speaker 1: them to then have access to safe caregiving, which is
5:05
Speaker 1: a survival drive fundamentally, And that's you know, that all
5:11
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to Baumeister's need to belong
5:14
Speaker 1: and just attachment drives, and you know the subconscious and
5:17
Speaker 1: its ability to try to seek the evolution of the
5:21
Speaker 1: human race through connection. Those big feelings are trying to
5:26
Speaker 1: communicate something, and when a parent shuts them down, that
5:30
Speaker 1: child has no choice but to go Okay. In order
5:34
Speaker 1: to have safe connection, I have to make myself small.
5:37
Speaker 1: I have to suppress what I'm feeling. I have to
5:39
Speaker 1: stop feeling these things. And I guess feeling it in
5:42
Speaker 1: the first place is wrong. I guess like something's wrong
5:45
Speaker 1: with me, maybe like I'm the problem here. And that's
5:50
Speaker 1: where the defectiveness wound is born. And that is the
5:52
Speaker 1: primary attachment injury for the dismissive avoidant person is defectiveness.
5:58
Speaker 1: And I want you to think about what defectiveness means.
6:01
Speaker 2: I can't be fixed.
6:02
Speaker 1: I'm bad and I can't be fixed. It's unchangeable. Would
6:07
Speaker 1: you want somebody if you truly believed that about yourself
6:10
Speaker 1: in the deepest parts of yourself. Would you want somebody
6:12
Speaker 1: to get close to you?
6:13
Speaker 2: No, right, there'd be so much shame, subconscious shame attached
6:18
Speaker 2: to it.
6:18
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happens.
6:21
Speaker 2: Why do the dismissive avoidance then often report a good childhood?
6:27
Speaker 2: My childhood was good. My parents loved me, you know,
6:30
Speaker 2: they showed up for me.
6:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because they don't know what they don't know
6:36
Speaker 1: when they've never experienced something, they don't know that it's missing.
6:40
Speaker 2: Well, I'm benign neglect. It looks benign.
6:43
Speaker 1: It looks benign, right, it looks like, oh, that was
6:45
Speaker 1: a normal lesson I was supposed to be taught. I mean,
6:49
Speaker 1: when I work with dismissive avoidant clients and I ask
6:52
Speaker 1: the question in the attachment interview, could you go to
6:55
Speaker 1: your parents for emotional support? And usually I have to
6:57
Speaker 1: define what emotional support is because they try to say, well,
7:00
Speaker 1: my parents helped me solve problems, or my parents are right, yeah,
7:03
Speaker 1: all that stuff they were around, they were instrumentally supportive,
7:07
Speaker 1: they problem solved. But could you go, hey, dad, you
7:12
Speaker 1: know this girl rejected me and I feel so embarrassed,
7:16
Speaker 1: and they're like no, dude, no, no, I never have
7:20
Speaker 1: done that. Never, never, And I'm like why, and it
7:24
Speaker 1: puzzles them. They're like, I don't know why I wouldn't
7:26
Speaker 1: have done that. I just wouldn't have It's just not
7:29
Speaker 1: what I just wouldn't have done it. And that shows
7:32
Speaker 1: me that those subconscious messages over not showing emotion and
7:38
Speaker 1: being tough and focusing on responsibility and on achievement and
7:42
Speaker 1: all the things that happened to dismissive avoidance in their
7:44
Speaker 1: childhood was already ingrained at such a young age they
7:48
Speaker 1: can't even remember when it started. It just was the
7:51
Speaker 1: norm in their memory. So by the time the child's two, three, four,
7:55
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, emotions are pointless. I deal with them
7:59
Speaker 1: inside of myself by just suppressing them. That's the only
8:02
Speaker 1: strategy a child has, right is suppressed associate, which distraction
8:08
Speaker 1: is the main mechanism by which they associate. So then
8:10
Speaker 1: that wires their brain towards self. I'm distracting on what
8:13
Speaker 1: I need over here to not think about the emotions
8:17
Speaker 1: that I had in my body. So I'm just going
8:18
Speaker 1: to color this picture. I'm going to go ride my bike.
8:22
Speaker 1: And then they grow up to be workaholics and hobby
8:24
Speaker 1: aholics that are only focused on themselves and miss the
8:29
Speaker 1: emotions and needs of their partner. So we've got a
8:32
Speaker 1: child who has suppression as their primary emotional strategy, self
8:39
Speaker 1: focused in order to remain dissociated from their emotional experiences,
8:44
Speaker 1: develops a very strong logical brain, extremely strong logical brain,
8:48
Speaker 1: which actually helps them a lot in their careers because
8:54
Speaker 1: they're able to problem solve and take the emotion out
8:56
Speaker 1: of it, you know, and in business for example, that
8:59
Speaker 1: can really help you. I can't tell you how many
9:02
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant clients I have that are uber successful business owners,
9:07
Speaker 1: uber successful entrepreneurs. Think about we're entrepreneurs, think about what
9:12
Speaker 1: it takes to get here, and we're very emotional people.
9:15
Speaker 2: Takes a lot. Yeah, I think for the heart and
9:19
Speaker 2: for the faint of heart.
9:20
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how often I wish I had
9:24
Speaker 1: some compartmentalization ability. I don't have that ability. I can't
9:28
Speaker 1: really dissociate.
9:30
Speaker 2: There's are moments I've gotten sort of noumb doubt, but.
9:34
Speaker 1: Very rare for me. You know, I've always been very
9:38
Speaker 1: emotional and very sensitive, which is much more in line
9:42
Speaker 1: with an anxious fa nature. So they carry this with
9:45
Speaker 1: them into their adult romantic relationships, where they in the beginning,
9:49
Speaker 1: they start out strong in the beginning, you think they're
9:52
Speaker 1: the perfect partner. Yeah.
9:54
Speaker 2: I think that's what's the most perplexing thing about them,
9:56
Speaker 2: because they come in so strong, you do, and then
10:00
Speaker 2: not even necessarily like in a love bombing way where
10:02
Speaker 2: they seem really secure.
10:04
Speaker 1: No, they seem just secure. Yeah, they give. Some can
10:07
Speaker 1: love bomb a little bit, but most of them just
10:09
Speaker 1: give an appropriate amount of effort, right, and then drastically
10:13
Speaker 1: reduce that effort over time.
10:14
Speaker 2: I mean it's like booming.
10:15
Speaker 1: Just cut off, and they reduce the effort right at
10:19
Speaker 1: the moment that the nervous system of the partner starts
10:22
Speaker 1: developing a deep attachment. So think about the evolution of
10:25
Speaker 1: a relationship that three four month mark. You've started developing
10:31
Speaker 1: a deep attachment at that point, And that's precisely the
10:34
Speaker 1: four to six month mark. In particularly for some reason,
10:37
Speaker 1: seems to be a key time where the dismissive avoidant
10:40
Speaker 1: person just shuts down and just starts pulling away. And
10:44
Speaker 1: so the nervous system of the partners become deeply attached
10:48
Speaker 1: to this version of the DA who showed up, interested
10:51
Speaker 1: and affectionate and strong and funny, and you know, just
10:56
Speaker 1: intrigued by them, and then they just start to fade
11:00
Speaker 1: away into a distant stranger. So painful.
11:04
Speaker 2: I wonder everybody's fascinated just because they're like, how do
11:07
Speaker 2: I get past this? How do I fix this? How
11:09
Speaker 2: do I figure this out?
11:10
Speaker 1: But how do I get the person back that was
11:12
Speaker 1: there in the beginning? And the really sad answer that
11:15
Speaker 1: I have to tell them is you usually can't. That
11:22
Speaker 1: was not who they really were unless they build capacity
11:28
Speaker 1: for something different. Now, in marriages, people have more of
11:33
Speaker 1: a motivation to change, So a dismissive avoidant who's married
11:39
Speaker 1: you have a much more likely chance that they're gonna
11:42
Speaker 1: they're going to change as a result of your boundaries.
11:45
Speaker 1: You're you know, secure communication, you're you know, secure behaviors
11:51
Speaker 1: in general.
11:52
Speaker 2: I know you've seen it.
11:53
Speaker 1: I have, oh my gosh, yes, all the time. But
11:57
Speaker 1: somebody in the dating phase, they're just going to chalk
12:01
Speaker 1: this up to you not being compatible.
12:03
Speaker 2: With them, and they're gonna let you need.
12:05
Speaker 1: I just can't give you what you need, which is
12:08
Speaker 1: the classic, classic DA line, And that's the effectiveness when
12:15
Speaker 1: spoken out loud, I just can't give you what you need, well, can't,
12:19
Speaker 1: never could. And they convince themselves of that. They convince
12:23
Speaker 1: themselves that they are not compatible with you because they
12:26
Speaker 1: are not an emotional person, they don't have enough time.
12:30
Speaker 1: They will come up with any excuse in this is
12:32
Speaker 1: just I am, This is just who I am, and
12:34
Speaker 1: somebody will love me for this cop out. Yeah, it
12:37
Speaker 1: is a big cop out, but they don't know that. Yeah,
12:42
Speaker 1: they think, well, someday, I'll just find the right person
12:45
Speaker 1: that loves me for me, that loves me for this
12:48
Speaker 1: incredibly distanced, emotionally unavailable, incapable of intimacy person that I am.
12:54
Speaker 1: And that's fantasyland.
12:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that brings me to something that just came
12:58
Speaker 2: up the other day with somebody I was talking to,
13:00
Speaker 2: which is the phantom X syndrome, which is pretty fascinating
13:04
Speaker 2: and pretty typical.
13:05
Speaker 1: Behavior, very consistent. It's like they all do it, yes,
13:09
Speaker 1: explain it, okay. Yeah. So once a dismissive avoid it
13:14
Speaker 1: starts to deactivate, which is fancy word for shutdown from
13:17
Speaker 1: the science. It's usually you know, the deactivating behavior is
13:23
Speaker 1: prompted by the first conflict, sort of a bump in
13:29
Speaker 1: relationship status, increased expectation, more closeness as the relationship you know,
13:35
Speaker 1: develops and gets naturally closer, and it just triggers them.
13:40
Speaker 1: It triggers that I can't do this because I'm defective
13:43
Speaker 1: type of wound or schema that they carry, and that's subconscious.
13:47
Speaker 1: They don't know that's coming up. They just start to
13:48
Speaker 1: get the ick, right, It just start to get the ick,
13:52
Speaker 1: and then their brain starts to dissociate from the current
13:55
Speaker 1: relationship in order to sort of distance themselves from the
13:59
Speaker 1: end of They start focusing on their ex because it's
14:02
Speaker 1: safe to focus on their ex because they're not with
14:05
Speaker 1: their ex. Therefore there is no true attachment, and so
14:09
Speaker 1: they're real deep need to actually be close and intimate
14:12
Speaker 1: with someone starts to come up, and they focus that
14:16
Speaker 1: on the X and it's safe to do so because
14:18
Speaker 1: they're not with them, right, and so they start thinking, well,
14:21
Speaker 1: my EX wouldn't have made me feel this way, and
14:22
Speaker 1: I wonder what my EX is doing and I miss
14:25
Speaker 1: this about my ex. And it's just a psychological subconscious
14:29
Speaker 1: distancing strategy. You can't really fully focus and be present
14:35
Speaker 1: and attuned to your partner if your brain's over here
14:37
Speaker 1: thinking about somebody else. But of course they don't tell
14:40
Speaker 1: their partner this, right, they keep it a secret.
14:41
Speaker 2: Well, in this case, the other day, this person that
14:43
Speaker 2: I was talking to, her partner went back to the
14:48
Speaker 2: ex wife. And that's dangerous. It's dangerous that this is
14:53
Speaker 2: what causes triangulation.
14:54
Speaker 1: It is, and they will put you in a love trying.
14:58
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they will thank you because they will him
15:02
Speaker 1: haul about both. Right.
15:03
Speaker 2: Well, then they'll do the opposite, like if they're not
15:06
Speaker 2: getting to the root cause of.
15:07
Speaker 1: Their issue, right, they'll eventually deactivate going back to the acts, right,
15:10
Speaker 1: gonna they're eventually going to feel icky and icked out
15:14
Speaker 1: by the closeness with the X that they returned to,
15:16
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna get fancy you and they can
15:19
Speaker 1: just be this cycle of kind of what a nightmare
15:22
Speaker 1: cycling through people.
15:23
Speaker 2: I've been in one of those, and it is a nightmare.
15:26
Speaker 2: No thanks, yeah, no love trying.
15:29
Speaker 1: I'm good yeah yeah.
15:33
Speaker 2: And essentially that's what I was telling this person I
15:36
Speaker 2: was talking to you today. You know, you can allow
15:38
Speaker 2: somebody to put you in something like that for years.
15:40
Speaker 2: You can waste years of your life, and it's up
15:43
Speaker 2: to you to put the boundary.
15:45
Speaker 1: People do not care about wasting your time. No, this
15:48
Speaker 1: is what you have to realize. Most people, especially in
15:51
Speaker 1: a dating phase, do not care about wasting your time.
15:55
Speaker 1: They are concerned with their life and their time and
15:57
Speaker 1: what feels good to them. That is human nature, but
16:00
Speaker 1: it is especially exacerbated in the dismissive avoidant person because
16:07
Speaker 1: their brains, their attention systems are so wired towards self.
16:13
Speaker 1: They have anxiety about their own life and own wants
16:18
Speaker 1: and needs. I need to get my needs met, I
16:21
Speaker 1: need to get my tasks done, and that allows them
16:25
Speaker 1: to sort of drown out the needs of others, particularly
16:29
Speaker 1: their partner. Now I will say sometimes they can people
16:31
Speaker 1: please outside of their relationship. Yeah, so they notice the
16:34
Speaker 1: needs of people that are not triggering their intimacy wounds, right, which.
16:38
Speaker 2: Is also perplexing for the partner because they're like, well,
16:40
Speaker 2: why can you give so much to them but you
16:42
Speaker 2: can't give that to me?
16:43
Speaker 1: Right. It's because they're safe. Yeah, they don't have to
16:46
Speaker 1: be emotional. They're not required to be emotionally close to
16:49
Speaker 1: that neighbor or the you know, their coworker, or sometimes
16:53
Speaker 1: even their mom and dad because they didn't have that
16:55
Speaker 1: closeness growing up, so they know mom and dad doesn't
16:58
Speaker 1: expect that closeness from me. I can go mow mom's grass.
17:01
Speaker 1: I can go, you know, sit and have coffee with
17:04
Speaker 1: my coworker. I can go and you know, chit chat
17:08
Speaker 1: with my neighbor for an hour where I barely say
17:11
Speaker 1: two words to my wife, right, because those people are
17:14
Speaker 1: safe to them.
17:16
Speaker 2: For the partner of dismissive avoidance, you know, what are
17:18
Speaker 2: some things that they can do?
17:21
Speaker 1: Their number one number one trigger is criticism. People will
17:31
Speaker 1: tell you it's vulnerability. That's one thing the relationship community
17:33
Speaker 1: gets wrong. It's not vulnerability, it's criticism. Because think about
17:37
Speaker 1: what defectiveness means. Criticism confirms defectiveness. It confirms See, you're wrong,
17:46
Speaker 1: you got it wrong, you can't get it right, You're
17:48
Speaker 1: not capable of getting it right. And so learning non
17:51
Speaker 1: critical communication could not be more significant. And I feel
17:56
Speaker 1: statements are not it. I feel sad when you insert
18:00
Speaker 1: criticism right, they can't take it. So that's why in
18:03
Speaker 1: my program, I really emphasize the needs based framework in communication.
18:10
Speaker 1: But I think it's important to really debunk these lies.
18:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk more about those, because that was how
18:18
Speaker 2: we started, and I want to really hit on some
18:21
Speaker 2: of these myths that are floating around out there in
18:24
Speaker 2: the social media landscape. They just aren't accurate.
18:27
Speaker 1: If they wanted to, they would. This is not a
18:29
Speaker 1: one tissue. They think that they're good partners, they think
18:35
Speaker 1: that they give enough. They do not see it, and
18:40
Speaker 1: you criticizing them. The way that they take that is
18:44
Speaker 1: you're the problem. You're someone who's attacking me. You're hyper critical,
18:51
Speaker 1: you're dramatic, you need too much. Because the conscious mind's
18:55
Speaker 1: job is to protect your self esteem and your self concept,
19:01
Speaker 1: but the subconscious is not agreeing with that. It's screaming
19:04
Speaker 1: you're defective, which creates shame. And then they want to
19:09
Speaker 1: fight the shame and shed the shame by projecting it
19:11
Speaker 1: onto you. It's your fault, it's your problem, you're too sensitive.
19:14
Speaker 1: And then when that doesn't work, then they run and
19:16
Speaker 1: hide from it. They deactivate, because that's the second sort
19:18
Speaker 1: of response to shame. We have fight to freeze, sometimes
19:22
Speaker 1: fond to freeze, okay, I'm sorry, you're right, fawning, and
19:26
Speaker 1: then shutdown. But the shutdown is always going to happen
19:28
Speaker 1: for them, and so I think it's not that they
19:31
Speaker 1: don't want to. They want to love you. They are
19:35
Speaker 1: loving you in accordance with what their blueprint says love is.
19:39
Speaker 1: So it's not their life that they're like, you know,
19:41
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be with this person, and I
19:43
Speaker 1: think I'm just not going to give effort because I
19:45
Speaker 1: don't really want to. It's a I really truly believe
19:50
Speaker 1: I am giving appropriate effort here, and I don't understand
19:53
Speaker 1: what your problem is.
19:55
Speaker 2: That's why they're usually good providers, and they think that
19:57
Speaker 2: being a good provider is the service.
20:00
Speaker 1: That's enough, that's enough, right. I don't want you to
20:04
Speaker 1: bring me your emotions because your emotions trigger my shame,
20:08
Speaker 1: like they get shamed by proxy if you bring emotions
20:11
Speaker 1: to me, I'm like, why are you bringing this to me?
20:14
Speaker 1: Like the emotions you know, are icky, they're shameful there
20:18
Speaker 1: that they're nobody's business, Like what are you bringing them
20:20
Speaker 1: to me for?
20:21
Speaker 2: Right?
20:22
Speaker 1: And it's it's sad. And then the person on the
20:26
Speaker 1: other side of that is just expecting normal emotional intimacy
20:30
Speaker 1: and they think it is so outside of what is normal.
20:35
Speaker 1: So they're operating from this blueprint that they are giving
20:39
Speaker 1: a normal amount of intimacy, affection, attention attonement when really
20:44
Speaker 1: it's way less than would be normal in a relationship.
20:47
Speaker 1: But they don't see it. So this whole if they
20:50
Speaker 1: wanted to, they would thing. They're like, what do you mean,
20:53
Speaker 1: I do want to? I am doing it? What are
20:56
Speaker 1: you talking about?
20:57
Speaker 2: Whole movie was made out off of that. He's just
21:00
Speaker 2: not that into you.
21:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, and okay, let's separate those myths. Right, So there
21:05
Speaker 1: are people that are just emotionally immature, not ready to
21:09
Speaker 1: really commit, not really that into you in the dating phase, sure,
21:13
Speaker 1: but not your husband of twenty nine years, right, if
21:17
Speaker 1: he was not that into if he was truly not
21:19
Speaker 1: that into you, he probably would be trying to get
21:22
Speaker 1: a divorce or he'd be letting you know directly, I'm
21:25
Speaker 1: not that into you. But that's not what these people report.
21:28
Speaker 1: They report that, well, he says that he loves me
21:30
Speaker 1: and he doesn't want to get a divorce, but yet
21:33
Speaker 1: he puts in no effort. I'm like, because no effort
21:35
Speaker 1: is their blueprint, right, No effort and just sitting by
21:40
Speaker 1: each other and not talking and be proimily you know,
21:44
Speaker 1: around the house with each other is their.
21:47
Speaker 2: Effort and connection.
21:49
Speaker 1: It's no real connection, right, So they want amicability. They
21:52
Speaker 1: want peace, ease, harmony, you know, fun, no drama, no work,
22:01
Speaker 1: no effort. It's like you go and you meet your
22:04
Speaker 1: own needs and have your own feelings over there. I'll
22:07
Speaker 1: go and meet my own needs and have my own
22:09
Speaker 1: feelings over here, which they don't really have any feelings
22:11
Speaker 1: let's say thoughts over there. I mean they have feelings,
22:14
Speaker 1: but very very very blended compared to a secure person.
22:20
Speaker 1: And then we come together and we just it's light, right,
22:23
Speaker 1: it's surface level. It's just fun.
22:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe we'll have sex here and there. Yeah,
22:28
Speaker 2: you have sex.
22:28
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we'll hang out well, joke, we'll do
22:31
Speaker 1: fun things well, or maybe we'll just sit around and
22:33
Speaker 1: do our own thing and that counts as time together.
22:37
Speaker 1: That's a big complaint that I hear from partners of
22:40
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance. It's like they say they're here all the time,
22:44
Speaker 1: but it was like, yeah, we were in the same room,
22:47
Speaker 1: but you weren't trying to talk to me at all,
22:49
Speaker 1: and when I tried to talk to you, you just
22:51
Speaker 1: kind of didn't even pay attention. It's like, hell, it
22:56
Speaker 1: is hell. I've experienced it firsthand.
22:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would rather my husband yell at
23:02
Speaker 2: me than do that to me.
23:03
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a tough one. Style rain Butcher would rather
23:09
Speaker 1: be yelled at.
23:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I can't do passivity. I can't do it.
23:14
Speaker 2: It just boils in me.
23:17
Speaker 1: And so let's get to another myth. Yeah, let's get
23:20
Speaker 1: to another myth, which is they just suck and they're losers.
23:26
Speaker 1: All right, They're just losers and they suck and toss
23:31
Speaker 1: them away. I'm not saying not to hold your boundaries
23:35
Speaker 1: and if that boundary is eventually leaving, okay, valid. But
23:39
Speaker 1: let's look deep inside and see that they're carrying the
23:43
Speaker 1: most painful wound a human can carry, so painful that
23:48
Speaker 1: their brain learned to dissociate from emotions altogether to avoid
23:53
Speaker 1: feeling it.
23:55
Speaker 2: Steep maybe step isn't that profound? It is? Well, it's
23:59
Speaker 2: a deep cut.
24:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so are they Are they losers or are
24:06
Speaker 1: they just in so much incredible pain their brains decided
24:09
Speaker 1: it's not even safe to go there. And now I'm
24:12
Speaker 1: not saying that that that's this reason to stick around.
24:15
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is I don't think that makes
24:17
Speaker 1: them a loser. I think that makes them incapable of vulnerability.
24:23
Speaker 1: And someone that can change that with the right tools,
24:27
Speaker 1: and tossing people in the garbage as a whole category,
24:33
Speaker 1: I think is kind of unfair. It is because some
24:36
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful transformations I've ever seen in my
24:39
Speaker 1: practice are from dismissive avoidance. When they go from of
24:42
Speaker 1: what you know, dismissive avoidance to secure they start and
24:47
Speaker 1: they feel things. And we had one the other day
24:50
Speaker 1: that said it was kind of giving us their testimony,
24:52
Speaker 1: like I felt an emotion. I felt it like and
24:54
Speaker 1: I haven't really ever felt anything, but a lot of them, Yeah,
24:58
Speaker 1: and a lot of them have like almost this like
25:02
Speaker 1: low level I don't want to say, it's not really depression,
25:06
Speaker 1: it's just like low level blunted affect, which just means
25:11
Speaker 1: they just don't really get the highs of life. They're
25:14
Speaker 1: avoiding the low lows. But they in exchange for avoiding
25:17
Speaker 1: the lo lows, they don't get any like highs and
25:19
Speaker 1: like real true joy either, because joy requires presence and
25:22
Speaker 1: you're not present if you're dissociated, right, And so they
25:25
Speaker 1: live their life in this like functional freeze where like
25:28
Speaker 1: there's enough fight or flight energy to be productive and
25:31
Speaker 1: then there's enough, there's enough association for them to be
25:34
Speaker 1: like chucked out from their present life.
25:37
Speaker 2: Well, enjoy is the antidote of pain. And if you're
25:40
Speaker 2: not feeling deep pain, how do you feel deep joy?
25:42
Speaker 1: You can't. Yeah, we don't get to choose what emotions
25:45
Speaker 1: we suppress. They all go into the box. So if
25:49
Speaker 1: we're suppressing pain, we are suppressing our capacity for joy.
25:52
Speaker 1: And that is so sad.
25:53
Speaker 2: That is sad, And I mean.
25:56
Speaker 1: Think about this. Think about this. Your child draws you
25:59
Speaker 1: a picture. Your child's grown, remember when he was a
26:02
Speaker 1: little boy. You know how excited they get when they
26:04
Speaker 1: draw you a picture. It's like everything to them. If
26:08
Speaker 1: you're living life in functional freeze, which is a lot
26:10
Speaker 1: of my clients, not just dismissive avoid it's a lot
26:12
Speaker 1: of fearful too. Their child comes up to them and
26:15
Speaker 1: they say, Daddy, look at this picture I drew for you.
26:19
Speaker 1: The da is gonna look at it and go, oh yeah,
26:21
Speaker 1: that's nice son. Thanks. They're not going to get down
26:25
Speaker 1: on that child's level and give them a tuonment and
26:27
Speaker 1: look in their eyes and go look at the colors
26:28
Speaker 1: on this page, buddy, look at this sun you drew.
26:32
Speaker 1: That's amazing. This makes my heart so happy. Thank you
26:36
Speaker 1: for doing this for me. That's a tutement, that's dialing in,
26:40
Speaker 1: it's matching the joy and energy your kid brought to you.
26:44
Speaker 1: Think of the other response, Oh yeah, that's nice, thanks
26:46
Speaker 1: feels like nothing. Feels like nothing. And then that child's
26:49
Speaker 1: heart was just crushed. And this is why attachment trauma
26:53
Speaker 1: is generational, and this is why we have to fix it.
26:58
Speaker 1: The mission of my business is to do everything in
27:01
Speaker 1: my power to prevent generational attachment trauma, to keep families together,
27:06
Speaker 1: to have emotionally healthy and mature kids that grow up
27:11
Speaker 1: to be emotionally healthy and mature adults that create thriving
27:15
Speaker 1: communities and thriving citizens. Yes, and so it's very painful
27:24
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship with a dismissive, avoidant person.
27:26
Speaker 1: They have those those blinders on, like I said, where
27:29
Speaker 1: they're just so self focused.
27:30
Speaker 2: Let's talk about why people think they're a narcissist.
27:33
Speaker 1: Because when you are on the other side of it,
27:37
Speaker 1: and let's just say, you're trying to be very vulnerable,
27:40
Speaker 1: You're trying to share I love you, I care about you,
27:43
Speaker 1: I want to be close to you, and you're met
27:45
Speaker 1: with a wall of silence to that that can be
27:49
Speaker 1: viewed as intentional withholding of affection. You are seeing me
27:54
Speaker 1: in pain, and you are intentionally ignoring me to hurt me.
28:00
Speaker 1: That's not what's happening at all. Their nervous system is
28:04
Speaker 1: freezing in response to that deep emotion you're bringing them.
28:08
Speaker 1: It's so scared of it because it led to such
28:11
Speaker 1: deep pain and rejection in childhood, and the nervous system remembers,
28:15
Speaker 1: and the nervous system is driving that. The nervous system
28:18
Speaker 1: is freezing them. They can't speak, they don't know, they
28:21
Speaker 1: can't access their thoughts, emotions, and they can't come towards
28:25
Speaker 1: you because the nervous system is saying, if you do it,
28:27
Speaker 1: you'll die.
28:27
Speaker 2: How does a partner tell the difference.
28:31
Speaker 1: Well, narcissists have problems in all areas of their life.
28:33
Speaker 1: Their narcissism isn't just confined to their relationship.
28:36
Speaker 2: Yea.
28:37
Speaker 1: You know, a narcissist is going to be a narcissist
28:39
Speaker 1: with the school teacher, with the soccer coach, with the
28:44
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, they may try to play nicy
28:46
Speaker 1: and icy, but they're going to just talk horrible about them,
28:50
Speaker 1: you know, behind their back. You know, das usually aren't
28:53
Speaker 1: doing that kind of stuff, or you know they're not.
28:56
Speaker 1: Narcissist are stepping on people's necks to climb the corporate ladder.
29:00
Speaker 1: Das are usually independently working hard and earning their way
29:04
Speaker 1: up because they're hyper focused on on their work. Narcissists
29:09
Speaker 1: are deliberately cruel. They deliberately They're the ones on the
29:15
Speaker 1: other side of that interaction, purposefully ignoring you, knowing they're
29:20
Speaker 1: ignoring you and getting joy out of the pain that
29:22
Speaker 1: it causes you. Whereas a dismissive avoidant is frozen, not
29:25
Speaker 1: knowing what to say, not knowing what to do, can't
29:28
Speaker 1: they can't access what to say. They you know, their
29:31
Speaker 1: brains blank, and then it's taken as you don't care.
29:37
Speaker 1: I have never once in my life sat down with
29:40
Speaker 1: a couple with a dismissive avoidant partner, and when I
29:44
Speaker 1: ask do you love your partner? Then, having said no,
29:48
Speaker 1: I don't, actually, then you just say, of course I do.
29:51
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here if I didn't. Of course I do.
29:54
Speaker 1: I love them so much. And then the you know,
29:57
Speaker 1: the person next to them will say, but you don't
29:59
Speaker 1: show it, and they're like, but I feel like I
30:02
Speaker 1: do because again they don't see it. They think they're
30:05
Speaker 1: showing up great, they think they're that this is what
30:08
Speaker 1: normal intimacy is, that this level of hyperindependence and lack
30:13
Speaker 1: of vulnerability is what is normal, and you are the
30:17
Speaker 1: one that's deviating from the norm.
30:19
Speaker 2: So how do they start to fix it?
30:23
Speaker 1: Well, you can imagine that anyone who can't tolerate their
30:27
Speaker 1: own emotions is certainly not going to be able to
30:29
Speaker 1: tolerate yours. But I think we before we even get
30:32
Speaker 1: to the emotions, we have to work on what I
30:35
Speaker 1: call the attachment filter bias. And the filter bias nomenclature
30:40
Speaker 1: really comes from work in human biases, and it's exactly
30:44
Speaker 1: what we carry, a human bias based on our attachment
30:49
Speaker 1: wounding that skews the way we think about ourselves, our partner,
30:53
Speaker 1: and our relationship. So the filter bias of the dismissive
30:57
Speaker 1: avoidant is I'm a good person, but my partner's always
31:02
Speaker 1: attacking me, and I try really hard, but it's never
31:05
Speaker 1: good enough, and I just can't give them what they
31:08
Speaker 1: need and I can't do it for them. So it's
31:11
Speaker 1: this sort of like I'm the victim of their attack,
31:15
Speaker 1: and no matter what I try, I can't do it,
31:18
Speaker 1: and so why bother continuing to try? Because it's just
31:21
Speaker 1: going to lead to failure. So they have to learn
31:24
Speaker 1: to recognize this and they have to learn to change it.
31:28
Speaker 1: And learning to change your thoughts is not easy, and
31:30
Speaker 1: in fact a large part of my work in this
31:33
Speaker 1: field has been around trying to really I don't know
31:39
Speaker 1: what the right word is, debunk or get away from
31:43
Speaker 1: get people away from generic CBT cognitive behavioral therapy where
31:47
Speaker 1: somebody just comes to you and says, challenge your thoughts.
31:50
Speaker 1: But if you've spent your whole life with your thoughts
31:53
Speaker 1: flying under the radar and not being able to challenge
31:56
Speaker 1: your own stream of consciousness as is happening, how are
31:58
Speaker 1: you supposed to develop that skill just because somebody tells
32:00
Speaker 1: you should.
32:01
Speaker 2: I would have no idea where to start.
32:03
Speaker 1: So in my practice I use something called ecological momentary
32:06
Speaker 1: assessment or EMA through what I call for shorthand the
32:10
Speaker 1: time or paradigm in teaching people metacognition. And I think
32:14
Speaker 1: that's very unique to my program because EMA is known
32:17
Speaker 1: to be the gold standard of getting people to understand
32:22
Speaker 1: their thoughts in a given moment of time and preventing recall, bias, preventing, distraction,
32:29
Speaker 1: all of those things. So generic CBT, in my opinion,
32:33
Speaker 1: just does not work very well. And we need conditioning.
32:40
Speaker 1: Attachment is conditioned, and the only antidote is to recondition it.
32:44
Speaker 1: So my hencely changed model of relational reconditioning is all
32:47
Speaker 1: about reconditioning beliefs, nervous system patterns, and then behavior.
32:54
Speaker 2: And what's the timeline for something like that?
32:58
Speaker 1: It totally depends on how much somebody commits to it.
33:01
Speaker 2: You know that I'm not I know the that's all
33:03
Speaker 2: the answers to these questions. Yeah, I'm asking them for
33:06
Speaker 2: you guys.
33:06
Speaker 1: Right, she does, She's heard them a million times. That's
33:09
Speaker 1: like saying, Okay, I want to build a body in
33:11
Speaker 1: the I want to build a body in the gym.
33:13
Speaker 1: I really want to have a good physique. How long
33:15
Speaker 1: is that going to take me? Well? How often are
33:18
Speaker 1: you able to go to the gym?
33:20
Speaker 2: You know?
33:20
Speaker 1: And if they're like, well, two times a week, I'm
33:22
Speaker 1: gonna be like, well it's gonna be gonna be a
33:24
Speaker 1: while and you're probably not ever going to really get
33:26
Speaker 1: what you want. It's just not enough. If you're like, hey,
33:29
Speaker 1: I'm willing to commit to five days all right, you know,
33:32
Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's say, and how fit do you
33:34
Speaker 1: want to be? Are we talking? You know? Model? Are
33:37
Speaker 1: we talking you know, just in good shape? Like what
33:39
Speaker 1: are we talking about here? So if we want like
33:42
Speaker 1: complete mastery, like this is second nature and you're getting
33:47
Speaker 1: it right more times than you're getting it wrong in
33:49
Speaker 1: your relationship, probably a year for a dismissive avoidance, but
33:53
Speaker 1: in six months they can still their partner can still say, wow,
33:57
Speaker 1: I see such a radical difference. I'm so much happier.
33:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's going to be prog for sure, but.
34:01
Speaker 1: You can't take neural pathways that have been there for
34:05
Speaker 1: someone's entire life and expect to change them in a
34:08
Speaker 1: few weeks. My program is four weeks. It gives you
34:11
Speaker 1: the tools to take it from there. And we have
34:14
Speaker 1: a program that will continue the work for you, you know,
34:17
Speaker 1: help you continue the work, I should say.
34:18
Speaker 2: And the program is going to get so much better
34:20
Speaker 2: as we build, as.
34:21
Speaker 1: We continue to Yeah, as we continue to work through things,
34:24
Speaker 1: and our team has expanded. We have so many exciting
34:27
Speaker 1: things to offer as we expand our team. But my
34:34
Speaker 1: program is founded in science. It comes from the science.
34:37
Speaker 1: It doesn't come from generic exercises. It doesn't come from
34:40
Speaker 1: this sounds like a good idea. It doesn't come from
34:43
Speaker 1: more insight. And in fact, so many people are selling insights,
34:46
Speaker 1: yes they are, they're just selling awareness.
34:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
34:48
Speaker 1: Awareness is free, by the way, we offer a lot
34:51
Speaker 1: of it.
34:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's free.
34:53
Speaker 1: Don't pay for it. Please, don't pay for awareness. We've
34:55
Speaker 1: got you there. And then they have to learn to
35:01
Speaker 1: start feeling. And this is a complicated but intentional process
35:10
Speaker 1: for dismissive avoidance. Complicated because we're literally starting from scratch.
35:16
Speaker 2: And their partner plays a role a lot too. Yes,
35:18
Speaker 2: I mean, granted, you can't change someone else, but in
35:21
Speaker 2: terms of how they react or what they recognize as
35:25
Speaker 2: their dismissive avoidant, partner is trying to evolve and trying
35:30
Speaker 2: to build more capacity.
35:32
Speaker 1: And you see it in little moments over time, right,
35:35
Speaker 1: you see it in well, they used to go down
35:38
Speaker 1: to the basement and play their guitar for the you know,
35:41
Speaker 1: for three hours. Now they went down and played for
35:44
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, and they came back up and said, hey, babe,
35:46
Speaker 1: you want to you want to do something, you want
35:48
Speaker 1: to hang out. And that's the kind of change micro moments. Yeah,
35:55
Speaker 1: it's the micro moments that build over time until it's
35:58
Speaker 1: a cohesive narrative. And usually if a dismissive avoidant partner
36:06
Speaker 1: is dedicated to this work, just a little bit of
36:11
Speaker 1: change feels amazing for the partner and it gives them
36:13
Speaker 1: enough hope to continue to stay in the game. And
36:16
Speaker 1: I always say, you have to think about if the
36:19
Speaker 1: needle is moving in your direction enough, And that's always
36:22
Speaker 1: a personal decision of how much and how fast do
36:25
Speaker 1: you need someone to change before you will leave. I
36:28
Speaker 1: can't give you a quantified answer of what that looks like.
36:33
Speaker 1: Is it twenty percent change, is it fifty percent change?
36:35
Speaker 1: Someone has to define their own boundaries. But what I
36:38
Speaker 1: can say is I know my two tools work because
36:43
Speaker 1: they come from the science that's demonstrated over and over
36:45
Speaker 1: and over again that they work. So I'm not bringing
36:48
Speaker 1: to you anything generic. I'm not bringing to you anything
36:51
Speaker 1: that isn't scientifically tested at the most rigorous level of
36:56
Speaker 1: methodology and replication. And I think I would like to
37:00
Speaker 1: think that that's what sets me apart.
37:02
Speaker 2: Some other people. Yeah, for sure.
37:04
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's super painful to be with the.
37:07
Speaker 2: I want to know about some more myths. So what
37:09
Speaker 2: are some more myths I think out there floating around?
37:13
Speaker 2: Because we all know that attachment self development, it's oh,
37:19
Speaker 2: it's all the range.
37:21
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to begin attachment experts well, and I think,
37:25
Speaker 1: you know, it's just fine.
37:26
Speaker 2: It is. It's fine because I think people are wanting
37:31
Speaker 2: to heal, and that's really beautiful.
37:33
Speaker 1: But the thing I have about everybody wanting to be
37:35
Speaker 1: the expert is that everybody's not an expert, no, and
37:37
Speaker 1: so they're leading people down the wrong path. And I
37:40
Speaker 1: have a moral and ethical pull that tells me that's
37:43
Speaker 1: not good.
37:43
Speaker 2: Right.
37:44
Speaker 1: And when I see people dichotomizing you have anxious attachment,
37:47
Speaker 1: you have avoidant attachment, I'm like, gosh, you're twenty five
37:49
Speaker 1: years behind the science here, folks, more than twenty five years.
37:53
Speaker 1: Let's get it together. Let's start talking about what type
37:56
Speaker 1: of avoidant, what type of anxious attachment? Are very different,
37:59
Speaker 1: very different, fereful of what it could not be more
38:01
Speaker 1: different than the dismissive. They might have moments, even stretches
38:06
Speaker 1: where they act like the dismissed.
38:07
Speaker 2: There's some overlap and all the yeah, there's.
38:09
Speaker 1: Overlap, But fundamentally, the reason that they're deactivating, pulling away,
38:12
Speaker 1: going cold. It's totally different than the DA totally totally different.
38:17
Speaker 1: And so if you treat it all the same, like
38:18
Speaker 1: quote avoidant attachment, you could be using the completely wrong
38:22
Speaker 1: approach with your partner in terms of meeting their needs.
38:25
Speaker 2: I'm the completely wrong approach to healing.
38:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, to healing for yourself right right, absolutely, And so
38:31
Speaker 1: that just drives me bonkers. But I think a huge
38:35
Speaker 1: mythist that you're just not changeable, so just leave them
38:38
Speaker 1: because they're not changeable. I think if your partner is
38:41
Speaker 1: open to intervention, there's every reason to try to stay.
38:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. I know you've mentioned like during the dating phase,
38:47
Speaker 2: if they're if you acknowledge early on the yeah no,
38:51
Speaker 2: then leave them.
38:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, leave me, no kids, no property, no history. You're
38:57
Speaker 1: four months in, give up the dream and move on.
39:00
Speaker 1: Figure out why you attracted them in the first place
39:02
Speaker 1: and why you wanted to stay, And that's the work
39:04
Speaker 1: you should be doing, right, not trying to figure out
39:08
Speaker 1: how to get them to love you at that point.
39:10
Speaker 1: But when you're married and you have kids and you
39:12
Speaker 1: own property, and you know, a divorce completely upends the
39:16
Speaker 1: lives of you and your children, that's a different conversation.
39:20
Speaker 1: It's a completely different conversation we have to have.
39:24
Speaker 2: So if you could like live in the brain of
39:25
Speaker 2: the dismissive avoidant.
39:27
Speaker 1: Oh I think I could. Yeah, you could know it
39:28
Speaker 1: like the back of my hand, Like I know every
39:31
Speaker 1: thought that they have practically around their.
39:32
Speaker 2: Relationshipyah during conflicts specifically, like what would be happening inside
39:38
Speaker 2: that brain of the dismissive avoidant.
39:40
Speaker 1: I don't agree with them. They're being dramatic, they're too sensitive.
39:44
Speaker 1: I can't do this right now. I can't give them
39:47
Speaker 1: whatever they want. I don't know what they want me
39:49
Speaker 1: to say. I don't know what they want me to do.
39:51
Speaker 1: You know this is unfair.
39:54
Speaker 2: So if people are trying to solve the behavior problem,
40:00
Speaker 2: actually it's a capacity problem again. Like what if you
40:07
Speaker 2: had the first piece of advice to tell them where
40:10
Speaker 2: to begin, maybe outside of your programs and services, what
40:16
Speaker 2: would that one thing be?
40:18
Speaker 1: Start here, Okay, start communicating non critically, Start letting their
40:24
Speaker 1: nervous system feel a little bit more comfortable around you,
40:27
Speaker 1: and then secondly, make your boundary around them getting help,
40:30
Speaker 1: not a boundary around them meeting all your needs because
40:32
Speaker 1: they can't. It's like asking five foot three meter to
40:35
Speaker 1: dunkle basketball without giving me a trampoline. Come on, now,
40:38
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. You set a boundary around
40:40
Speaker 1: me getting the trampoline. If you want me to dunk
40:42
Speaker 1: the basketball. It's like, okay, well can I have that.
40:45
Speaker 1: I'll get Okay, I'll get the trampoline. Right. You can't
40:47
Speaker 1: just be like, nope, you got to dunk the basketball.
40:50
Speaker 1: And that's what so many people are doing. They're demanding,
40:52
Speaker 1: they're begging, they're pleading, they're explaining it in fifty thousand
40:55
Speaker 1: million ways, expecting that it's going to change something.
40:57
Speaker 2: It's not.
41:00
Speaker 1: Just making them go colder and more frozen and more
41:03
Speaker 1: helpless and hopeless and shameful. And it is going to
41:06
Speaker 1: get you the exact opposite of what you want.
41:10
Speaker 2: And for the dismissive avoidant, what would you what would
41:13
Speaker 2: be the first step? But you would tell them.
41:16
Speaker 1: Get the right help. You're not defective, you're not incapable,
41:23
Speaker 1: you deserve love, You're not a loser. You can change.
41:30
Speaker 1: There's nothing inherently wrong with you. You just have a
41:33
Speaker 1: set of habits that don't serve you in your relationship.
41:36
Speaker 1: And you can learn the skills to be a good partner. Yeah,
41:42
Speaker 1: and there are probably aspects of you that already are
41:43
Speaker 1: a good partner. Being a good provider is a good aspect.
41:47
Speaker 1: It's just not the only thing, right. So, I think,
41:52
Speaker 1: did we cover it all?
41:53
Speaker 2: We did? I think so. I've heard a lot of it,
41:55
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to think, you know, in terms of
41:59
Speaker 2: the community itself, there's so many questions. I mean, there's
42:01
Speaker 2: a plethora of questions that come through it.
42:03
Speaker 1: And so many of them start out with how do
42:05
Speaker 1: I get my partner too yes? Or how do I
42:07
Speaker 1: get them to come back right?
42:08
Speaker 2: You know, And that's a big one when when you
42:11
Speaker 2: do get kind of cut off by the DA.
42:13
Speaker 1: My answer is always, you can't. You can't make anyone
42:16
Speaker 1: do anything, and you trying to make them is not
42:20
Speaker 1: only a waste of your time, but it is a
42:22
Speaker 1: recipe for disappointment. What you can do is foster your
42:27
Speaker 1: own security and naturally create an environment that would make
42:31
Speaker 1: a dismissive avoidant comfortable enough to be around you. And
42:35
Speaker 1: then you've got to get clear on your boundaries and
42:37
Speaker 1: hold them and make those boundaries accessible, Like, hey, I
42:43
Speaker 1: need you to participate in this program with me. If
42:45
Speaker 1: you want to be with me because I can't see
42:48
Speaker 1: how things are going to change if if we just
42:53
Speaker 1: let this keep going. No, it's only going to get worse, right, No,
42:56
Speaker 1: it tends to get worse to you. Yeah, it does.
42:59
Speaker 2: Well, I know that you have seen massive breakthroughs, oh,
43:03
Speaker 2: with so many. I mean I've heard stories from you know,
43:07
Speaker 2: your community that have gone through the program or just
43:09
Speaker 2: the course and had breakthroughs, and they're always so wonderful
43:15
Speaker 2: to see and hear when we when we about to
43:17
Speaker 2: see those breakthroughs. And so you know, obviously there are
43:21
Speaker 2: so many places that you can start. There's a few
43:22
Speaker 2: places that you can start with us. Of course, we
43:25
Speaker 2: just launched or doctor Hinsley just launched a free training
43:30
Speaker 2: completely free guys free capital f what most capitals are.
43:34
Speaker 1: We're going to.
43:35
Speaker 2: Capital Free, okay, where you can really get more awareness
43:40
Speaker 2: around attachment and then really start to decide whether you
43:43
Speaker 2: want to deep dive more into the services and programs
43:47
Speaker 2: that we provide or even someone else provides. But we
43:49
Speaker 2: would love to be of service to you.
43:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have a special promo code we do
43:53
Speaker 1: for our listeners. Yeah, if you want to join my
43:55
Speaker 1: hybrid program, which is where my dismissive avoidance starve. And
43:58
Speaker 1: let me just give a blurb about why that is.
44:01
Speaker 1: Therapy makes things worse. Couples counseling myth.
44:05
Speaker 2: How could we miss that? One?
44:06
Speaker 1: We miss it? Couples counseling will lead you to divorce
44:09
Speaker 1: with a dismissive avoidant because the moment they sit in
44:11
Speaker 1: the chair, they're triggered around vulnerability and they have to
44:14
Speaker 1: receive criticism from you and the therapist, and their nervous
44:16
Speaker 1: system just goes, for lack of a better terms, if this.
44:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're being asked to process their emotions in
44:22
Speaker 2: real time when they can't.
44:24
Speaker 1: Regulated person cannot process and respond honestly. And so my
44:29
Speaker 1: program allows them to be a fly on the wall,
44:31
Speaker 1: completely anonymous, never called upon. They can sit back, be
44:35
Speaker 1: regulated because a dysregulated person cannot learn, and a regulated
44:38
Speaker 1: person can actually learn. And I like to think that
44:42
Speaker 1: I can talk to them in a way that makes
44:43
Speaker 1: them feel really understood for maybe the first time in
44:46
Speaker 1: their lives and not villainized. And they appreciate that. They
44:51
Speaker 1: appreciate it so much because they're like, I'm a human too, dude.
44:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's a breakthrough in itself. It is when
44:57
Speaker 2: they acknowledge that, like, they're not broken.
45:00
Speaker 1: Right, and that they have needs and it's okay, and
45:02
Speaker 1: that they don't have to have like this hyper independence
45:06
Speaker 1: that where they can only count on themselves. That it's
45:08
Speaker 1: okay to open up and regulate with your partner and
45:12
Speaker 1: share with your partner and be close to your partner.
45:14
Speaker 1: And those are human needs you've been suppressing your whole life.
45:17
Speaker 1: So let's learn to start un suppressing them. Because once
45:19
Speaker 1: you see the positive benefit, you're going to want to
45:23
Speaker 1: keep doing it.
45:24
Speaker 2: It changes everything.
45:25
Speaker 1: And that leads me to you know, once you start
45:27
Speaker 1: doing it in a healthy way, and if your partner's
45:32
Speaker 1: not healthy, A lot of times people unintentionally reinforce their
45:35
Speaker 1: partner's dismissive avoidance when they do get a little bit
45:38
Speaker 1: of bravery to reveal their feelings. If you just shut
45:42
Speaker 1: it down and get defensive, what does that teach them? Well,
45:46
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have done that.
45:46
Speaker 2: They're just going to regress.
45:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just going to regress.
45:49
Speaker 2: And so y'all probably want that promo coach, she was
45:52
Speaker 2: just talking about it, which is love. Well, we've it's
45:55
Speaker 2: love Doc twenty seven. But we need to change that
45:59
Speaker 2: we do because of course this new show is called
46:02
Speaker 2: The Doctor Hinsley Show, but for now you can still
46:04
Speaker 2: use the LOVEDOC twenty seven.
46:05
Speaker 1: We'll create anyone to bring it to you next.
46:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, next time, guys, We're going on and if
46:11
Speaker 2: you rebrand, that brand is in so many different place
46:14
Speaker 2: it is. It's it's tough to catch all the places
46:17
Speaker 2: that it is. But we still want to offer you,
46:19
Speaker 2: guys that code for twenty seven percent off any of
46:22
Speaker 2: duc's services and programs. We're so grateful guys to be
46:25
Speaker 2: in our new studio.
46:27
Speaker 1: You guys have to check out the YouTube so you
46:29
Speaker 1: can see us that it is totally Beverly Hills Hotel style.
46:35
Speaker 1: It is.
46:35
Speaker 2: It's it's uh, that was.
46:37
Speaker 1: That was what I was going for.
46:38
Speaker 2: I think it even the Emerald. And then when we
46:41
Speaker 2: when we did our old studio you know, and made
46:44
Speaker 2: it official, I felt like it was just so like
46:48
Speaker 2: we were so excited. We was so excited because we
46:50
Speaker 2: were like, oh, this is like the perfect mix of
46:52
Speaker 2: Rain and Sarah. But I think this is even more
46:55
Speaker 2: the perfect mix of Rain and Sarah.
46:58
Speaker 1: Like that credenza you would see in my house.
47:01
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and this wall would definitely be something in
47:06
Speaker 2: the Jesus picture. Definitely something you'd see in my house because.
47:09
Speaker 1: It looks like it came from Granny's house.
47:11
Speaker 2: Totally. Yes, guys, I love granny shit. Okay, granny shit
47:16
Speaker 2: is cool. I mean it's just cool.
47:17
Speaker 1: Antiques are cool.
47:18
Speaker 2: And I like eclectic things. My style is very eclectic
47:22
Speaker 2: and kind of all over the place. I like what
47:23
Speaker 2: I like and I'll put it all together even if
47:25
Speaker 2: it doesn't match. But that's not what this is. So
47:27
Speaker 2: you do you have to go check it out? Check
47:29
Speaker 2: it obviously. Go. You know, you can follow us on
47:31
Speaker 2: all social media platforms at the Doctor Sarah Hensley Show
47:34
Speaker 2: and of course on YouTube at doctor Sarah Hnsley as
47:37
Speaker 2: you got to check it out.
47:39
Speaker 1: And a new website.
47:41
Speaker 2: A new website's coming. There's so many things. I could
47:44
Speaker 2: go on and on with all the things.
47:45
Speaker 1: You can just continue to go to the lovedc dot
47:47
Speaker 1: com for now. If he launches, it'll redirect you, yes,
47:50
Speaker 1: doctor Sarahnsley dot com. Yes, but we're excited because we're
47:54
Speaker 1: super official and nobody can take my name away from me.
47:56
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to try to take things from me. You
47:58
Speaker 1: can't take my name name.
48:02
Speaker 2: Yes, and you.
48:02
Speaker 1: Know now, I'm not a victim.
48:04
Speaker 2: I'm just teasing guests, right, and we're going to turn
48:05
Speaker 2: this into just something really great for you, guys, So
48:08
Speaker 2: please stay tuned because we want to have some amazing
48:10
Speaker 2: guests on and have some amazing topics and continue to
48:14
Speaker 2: just bring so much knowledge and awareness. But if you
48:17
Speaker 2: want to go deeper, baby, you got to check out
48:19
Speaker 2: those services and programs and you can still use Love
48:22
Speaker 2: Doc twenty seven. Continue to tune in, guys. Season three
48:26
Speaker 2: is kicking off with a bang, and we could not
48:29
Speaker 2: be more excited to be here. We have worked tirelessly,
48:35
Speaker 2: so hard, and we just hope it's all worth it
48:37
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, it's all for you.
48:39
Speaker 2: It's all for you, and we love you. Guys. Continue
48:42
Speaker 2: to tune in, like subscribe, leave us a comment right
48:44
Speaker 2: into us, and until next time, peace, love and perspective.
48:49
Speaker 1: Hey, our first episode, we