Latest / Constellations and all that... / 65. The Shadows We Bring Into the Room with Nir Esterman

Transcript

65. The Shadows We Bring Into the Room with Nir Esterman · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kiona and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia, everyone, welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy: This evening I have the pleasure of chatting with Nia, Esther, and welcome n.
• 0:41
  Nir: Thank you Tracy, and welcome
• 0:43
  Tracy: in my podcast.
• 0:44
  Tracy: I, I really love it when the, the guests introduce themselves a little bit about who they are, whatever is there for you.
• 0:52
  Nir: So where should we begin?
• 0:54
  Nir: I'm a teacher of Family Constellations and Embodi shadow work.
• 1:00
  Nir: Um, the developer of Shadow Constellations, which is perspective or a modality that takes the healing.
• 1:06
  Nir: Power of both family Constellation as we know it from gear and shadow work as we know it from Jung Twitter with some embodiment principles, which is my first body work modality, and combine them together with a very specific focus of helping facilitators and therapist and coaches, professional helpers, helping them to relay.
• 1:29
  Nir: Be more able to notice what is it that we're not seeing?
• 1:33
  Nir: What is it that we're not seeing or not in touch with that really affects our clients and our students, and.
• 1:40
  Nir: A variety of ways.
• 1:43
  Nir: Some of them helpful, most of them not helpful because the entire idea also in constellations of course, is that we want to acknowledge what is because what is not acknowledged as an adverse effect.
• 1:53
  Nir: And so we take that into really high, high resolution and, and a very deep aspects of who we are as.
• 1:59
  Nir: Professionals and how what we are not yet enough in touch with drastically affects our client's ability to have change, to feel safe to, to share certain things with us, et cetera.
• 2:13
  Nir: So it's a professional brief.
• 2:15
  Nir: I am 49 and I'm living with my family right now, mostly in India.
• 2:21
  Nir: For the last two and a half years we've been out of Israel, which is where I'm from originally and due to the war.
• 2:28
  Tracy: I remember when you, when you were posting that you were heading off, gosh,
• 2:32
  Nir: yeah, maybe two years and three or four months,
• 2:35
  Tracy: but
• 2:35
  Nir: it's still, that's a scale.
• 2:37
  Nir: Yeah.
• 2:37
  Nir: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:39
  Nir: It was quite a thing.
• 2:40
  Nir: Also was a leap to many things.
• 2:45
  Nir: Um, this, uh, very big movement in a very sudden, rushed way was both very challenging and also open a lot of things eventually.
• 2:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 2:56
  Tracy: And because you've got two teenage daughters, but were they teenagers when you left?
• 3:01
  Tracy: Still
• 3:01
  Nir: were 11 and 13.
• 3:03
  Nir: There are 13 and 15 now.
• 3:05
  Nir: Yeah.
• 3:06
  Tracy: Juggling the challenges of traveling with young ladies.
• 3:08
  Tracy: Hey.
• 3:09
  Nir: We're not always traveling.
• 3:10
  Nir: We like half the year or even eight months, or here in India, in Goan, in a more stable environment when there is, uh, well, it's not exactly a stable community, but a community with some stable elements and international school and all of that.
• 3:24
  Nir: And the rest of the year we are visiting family at home and in each year we do something else last.
• 3:32
  Nir: Last, uh, last year we went to the United States and went to the Constellation in intensive, uh, in New Mexico that Leslie Nips is organizing, taught in Boulder, Colorado, and visited Central America.
• 3:46
  Nir: So really trying to make something very expansive and alive from this very turbulent time.
• 3:54
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 3:55
  Tracy: What were you doing before you started your journey with constellations?
• 3:59
  Nir: Well, constellations, well, it was immediately, I love at first sight and, uh, marriage at first sight, if you like.
• 4:07
  Nir: I've been in the constellation field for almost 10 years now.
• 4:11
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 4:11
  Nir: Um, before that I was doing invited shadow work, um, was teaching both in Israel and in in Russia before the war there.
• 4:20
  Nir: And before it, I began my healing modalities with, uh, Greenberg Method, which is an Israeli body work modality.
• 4:29
  Nir: Like very deep emotional body work, very powerful tools, sometimes not enough of a correct holding for such powerful tools.
• 4:38
  Nir: In my, my personal experience,
• 4:40
  Tracy: what
• 4:40
  Nir: was it called?
• 4:41
  Tracy: Sorry?
• 4:42
  Nir: Was it called The Greenberg?
• 4:43
  Nir: The Greenberg Method,
• 4:45
  Tracy: the Greenberg.
• 4:46
  Tracy: Okay.
• 4:47
  Nir: Yeah,
• 4:48
  Tracy: I haven't heard
• 4:48
  Nir: of it named after the founder, Avi Greenberg.
• 4:51
  Nir: It was very popular in Israel and some places in Europe, uh, and states for a few years.
• 4:55
  Nir: It was, it, it was brilliant.
• 4:57
  Nir: I got a lot of it and, and learned it and worked in, in that field for over a decade.
• 5:04
  Nir: Decade before I. Met, uh, but each other work and started to combine that and then Constellation kind of took over.
• 5:12
  Nir: And before that I have a first degree in computer science and biology and a master's degree in science teaching research in interdisciplinary learning.
• 5:22
  Nir: Yeah.
• 5:23
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:23
  Tracy: I've, I, I thought you had something to do with computers.
• 5:26
  Tracy: I thought I remembered that somewhere along the line.
• 5:29
  Nir: Yeah.
• 5:31
  Nir: I had a computer since I, since I was eight.
• 5:34
  Nir: Right.
• 5:35
  Nir: Uh, at home.
• 5:36
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:36
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:36
  Tracy: How did Constellations find you?
• 5:39
  Tracy: How was, what was your first experience with it?
• 5:42
  Tracy: I believe that the field finds it.
• 5:44
  Tracy: I think, I believe the field finds us when we are ready for it.
• 5:46
  Nir: Yeah, it was a very interesting path.
• 5:49
  Nir: Um, I think it was, it began probably two years before it, it actually happened.
• 5:54
  Nir: Um, I. Was introduced to embodiment work with a teacher called Mark Walsh that I just had.
• 6:02
  Nir: Mm-hmm.
• 6:02
  Nir: A very strong calling to attend one of his workshops when he came to Israel, and I was like, oh wow.
• 6:08
  Nir: I know this language.
• 6:09
  Nir: I speak a different dialect, but I really know the language and, and I want, and I want to learn more dialect of this embodiment, present somatic.
• 6:18
  Nir: And so I started with him for a while when, when he was visiting Israel and then.
• 6:24
  Nir: Things changed with his organizer and I decided with a friend to bring him to Israel ourselves to host him.
• 6:31
  Nir: And as we're working about that, we were doing something together, me and and that friend.
• 6:37
  Nir: And after a session, she told me near, you must teach in his training in the uk.
• 6:43
  Nir: I was like, well, sounds cool.
• 6:45
  Nir: How about first he comes here, we do everything well, we end up nicely and then I'll check.
• 6:49
  Nir: I don't want him to feel that, you know, we're applying any pressure.
• 6:52
  Nir: I'm bringing you now you have to gimme something back and I'm really sensitive about these things.
• 6:58
  Nir: Said, yeah, sound good idea.
• 7:00
  Nir: The next day she called me and says.
• 7:02
  Nir: And listen is opening a training in Moscow and the body buddy psychotherapist, who's teaching other work and body shadow work, cannot make it to Moscow on these days.
• 7:14
  Nir: The organizer asked him who should the, who should she, uh, invite Instead, he told her, ask me love and love told him.
• 7:23
  Nir: As your person.
• 7:23
  Nir: Mm-hmm.
• 7:24
  Nir: Which is how I got to Russia, to Moscow to teach and but each other to work as a part of an embodiment training.
• 7:30
  Nir: It was beautiful, uh, in many, many ways, thoughtful.
• 7:34
  Nir: Creative, uh, powerful.
• 7:36
  Nir: And as a part of the training there, every night they would have some embodied movement practice or five rhythms or uh, conscious movement or something.
• 7:46
  Nir: And I was struck by that because until that time, everything I knew about dancing was either.
• 7:52
  Nir: Very formal dancing or kind of you go to a dance because you want to get late.
• 7:57
  Nir: Um, and like, and I didn't like this and I didn't like that.
• 8:01
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 8:01
  Nir: Uh, and suddenly like, oh, conscious movement and people looking in the eyes and people really trying to sense each other and to connect.
• 8:09
  Nir: And I was like, wow.
• 8:10
  Nir: I called my wife telling her when I get back to Israel, you must do some other kind of dancing because.
• 8:16
  Nir: It was always some place that we did not connect.
• 8:20
  Nir: She's a natural dancer.
• 8:21
  Nir: I'm not.
• 8:22
  Tracy: I bet she was happy to hear that.
• 8:23
  Tracy: Then
• 8:24
  Nir: she was.
• 8:25
  Nir: Although it's still, we, we really still dance in very different styles.
• 8:28
  Nir: But, uh, but we did dance together in a. Ceremonial wedding in India, uh, a year and a half ago when the guests were expected to do, to do some show.
• 8:38
  Nir: And it was brilliant.
• 8:39
  Nir: So something went well.
• 8:42
  Nir: Anyways, that led me to learning, uh, movement, improvisation and modality developed by learning Moore, uh, choreograph and a dancer, uh, with one of her teachers.
• 8:52
  Nir: And.
• 8:54
  Nir: When that ended, one of my colleagues there told me, well, we need to move to the next thing that we need to study because we need to study something.
• 9:02
  Nir: I got, I think I found the right teacher and she's coming to Israel to teach, uh, um.
• 9:08
  Nir: Family constellation or something like that.
• 9:10
  Nir: So I'll speak with her.
• 9:11
  Nir: I'll send her out.
• 9:13
  Nir: Anyway, she brought me into other friends to uh, um, an introductory workshop with, uh, Sino, which was my first constellation.
• 9:20
  Nir: Turned out to be my first Constellation teacher.
• 9:22
  Nir: Uh, and I went there really, like, I have a full practice already for some years.
• 9:27
  Nir: I'm happy with what I'm doing.
• 9:30
  Nir: Good results, happy clients, good reputation.
• 9:34
  Nir: And yeah, it's a professional thing to do, to learn some new tools once in a while.
• 9:39
  Nir: So you can hear the he high Hebrews in my voice and uh, then after two, three hours I was chosen to be in a demo and I just sit, sit there.
• 9:52
  Nir: Crying, shaking, trembling and doing some work about the burden.
• 9:55
  Nir: I was caring for my father and I was like, okay, I'm going to learn this.
• 10:00
  Tracy: Yeah,
• 10:01
  Nir: modality.
• 10:02
  Nir: Uh, and from there everything flowed real fast.
• 10:06
  Nir: I mean, I was talking to a friend that was visiting, my wife went, when I was in that workshop, my wife and the children went to visit my parents, and a friend of ours of many years came to visit.
• 10:18
  Nir: And them in, in my parents' place, and she wrote me that evening, what happened to your father?
• 10:24
  Nir: It is like, I was like, what happened?
• 10:27
  Nir: He started talking with me.
• 10:28
  Nir: He never speaks with me.
• 10:29
  Nir: This was, you know, two hours after the session.
• 10:34
  Nir: Like, okay.
• 10:36
  Nir: Very interesting.
• 10:38
  Nir: And maybe it was three days after I was standing alone in my clinic and giving myself a self constellation about me and bigger me and bigger me was like, come, come.
• 10:48
  Nir: It's about time you move.
• 10:49
  Nir: Uh, you're lazy butt.
• 10:51
  Nir: And, and, and get closer to me because it's time.
• 10:55
  Nir: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Nir: Okay.
• 10:56
  Nir: Need to grow.
• 10:57
  Nir: And I think it was a month later that they gave my first shadow Constellations workshop.
• 11:03
  Nir: It was a very.
• 11:04
  Nir: Minimal just took the basic idea of being able to represent other work that I already did with the shadow.
• 11:12
  Nir: And so I did it with like advanced students who already knew me from, and I took a full training with s and I felt like I need more.
• 11:19
  Nir: So in parallel, I started to learning the constellation path with uh, SHA Al and Anova Kovi and Isha Gastro, who is the founder of the school.
• 11:30
  Nir: It just flowed very quickly.
• 11:32
  Nir: Like I brought it to my practice.
• 11:34
  Nir: I started working one-on-one with my clients, um, very quickly just, just saying, look, there's this new modality I'm learning.
• 11:42
  Nir: It may be, it may be relevant for us.
• 11:44
  Nir: Would you like to try with those that I felt that it's relevant for them?
• 11:48
  Nir: And so I kind of taught myself how to work one-on-one before I learned it and more formally in class.
• 11:54
  Tracy: Wow.
• 11:55
  Nir: Uh, it, it was really like something that.
• 11:59
  Nir: Was just waiting for me to discover it and, and like, and, and it felt so complete and so connected and, and yeah, so essential, this systemic perspective, which I had, but not in that way.
• 12:14
  Nir: Um, and, and, and entire understanding of how intergenerational trauma affects us.
• 12:19
  Nir: I'm, I'm second generation to the Holocaust on both sides.
• 12:22
  Nir: My parents were, I mean, my father is an orphan from the, from the war.
• 12:27
  Nir: I was born two or three years before, um, grew up in an orphanage.
• 12:32
  Nir: My mother was born inside the war of ghetto.
• 12:34
  Nir: And, and, you know, and I was always, as a child, I remember, I, I was fascinated by, uh, the World War Stories.
• 12:41
  Nir: I, I, I've read here and there, but we didn't talk about it.
• 12:44
  Nir: Just, you know, just facts.
• 12:47
  Nir: And you know, life is basically good.
• 12:50
  Nir: And I realized how much this unspoken history, or maybe known, not really felt history.
• 12:59
  Nir: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Nir: Really affected me in so many levels sometimes, you know, hilarious.
• 13:04
  Nir: I mean, I think.
• 13:06
  Nir: When I was 40, more or less, I gave a workshop one day.
• 13:11
  Nir: Family Constellations, shadow Constellations.
• 13:13
  Nir: It was about the client's mom being in the Ukraines, in the famine and during World War ii.
• 13:21
  Nir: And it was, it wasn't easy.
• 13:23
  Nir: And I'm like, okay, fine.
• 13:24
  Nir: And you know, we went through, the results were seemed to be good.
• 13:28
  Nir: I went home, I opened some folder that I needed to check something in and off.
• 13:35
  Nir: False sheet of paper.
• 13:37
  Nir: It was a folder of all things that I needed to file and I didn't get to file yet.
• 13:41
  Nir: And on the other side of it.
• 13:43
  Nir: It was like a draft paper that I received from my father, like a bunch of draft papers he printed on one side and to re to recycle on the other side.
• 13:53
  Nir: And it just happened to, to tell his, um, for, uh, some interview that he, that he did and, and he basically said, my earliest memory is that I'm always hungry.
• 14:04
  Tracy: Wow.
• 14:05
  Nir: Wow.
• 14:06
  Nir: And that was Friday or Saturday.
• 14:09
  Nir: And on Sunday.
• 14:10
  Nir: It is a regular day in Israel.
• 14:13
  Nir: I, I went to the clinic and suddenly I stopped myself and like, this is the first day in my life that I went out of home without making sure I have food.
• 14:22
  Nir: I never realized it.
• 14:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:25
  Tracy: That unconscious impact of it all.
• 14:27
  Nir: Yeah.
• 14:28
  Nir: Like I would always either have food with me or make sure I have money and somewhere where I can buy food in the time that I have.
• 14:35
  Nir: Like it, it was so normal that I never thought that I'm doing it.
• 14:39
  Nir: And suddenly it stopped.
• 14:41
  Nir: Yeah.
• 14:42
  Nir: Oh,
• 14:42
  Tracy: amazing.
• 14:43
  Tracy: And the odds for your parents to both have survived that It's beautiful.
• 14:48
  Nir: Yeah, that's, yeah.
• 14:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:50
  Nir: Very
• 14:51
  Tracy: to be babies in that time, right?
• 14:53
  Tracy: Yeah,
• 14:54
  Nir: no, it was.
• 14:55
  Nir: Whole story.
• 14:56
  Nir: Like my mom was separated from her father, left her mother for another woman in the ghetto.
• 15:03
  Nir: Um, yeah, uh, my mom was then smuggled out, separated from her family and moving around, being hidden by Polish family and smuggled out by a friend of the family was an ambulance driver in the resistance.
• 15:18
  Tracy: Oh.
• 15:18
  Tracy: Like one of those.
• 15:19
  Tracy: There's a movie made about something like that.
• 15:22
  Tracy: Was she one of those babies?
• 15:23
  Nir: I don't think so.
• 15:25
  Nir: Not that I know of.
• 15:26
  Nir: I, I would've known.
• 15:28
  Nir: I don't think so.
• 15:29
  Nir: Yeah.
• 15:29
  Nir: But yeah, lots of stories.
• 15:31
  Tracy: Miracle.
• 15:32
  Tracy: And the miracle of this work.
• 15:33
  Tracy: And I think, I remember when I first was learning constellations and I heard that part of the reason that, that Helen wanted to bring this work, but well, when it came through, and then he really brought it into Germany, was because of the.
• 15:48
  Tracy: The trauma, not of the ones that survived, but you know, the grandchildren that were coming through.
• 15:54
  Tracy: Right.
• 15:54
  Tracy: Your generation basically.
• 15:56
  Tracy: And there was so much addiction and suicide and mental health on both sides from
• 16:02
  Nir: mm-hmm.
• 16:03
  Tracy: The Germans and the Jewish people as well, from those who were, yeah.
• 16:07
  Tracy: And I think it's ironic or interesting or, or, and at the same time, a blessing that this has been brought through in the country where so much.
• 16:17
  Tracy: Pain was transmitted.
• 16:19
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Nir: It's tragic really.
• 16:21
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 16:22
  Tracy: And, and quite a few, um, very amazing deep healing processes have come outta Germany since around that time as well, haven't they?
• 16:30
  Tracy: So,
• 16:31
  Nir: yeah.
• 16:32
  Nir: Same in Israel, actually.
• 16:33
  Nir: And both had like a, a bunch of really powerful healing modalities in the last 80 years.
• 16:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 16:40
  Nir: Um,
• 16:41
  Tracy: I guess that spears it on, right?
• 16:42
  Tracy: It fires up the, the, the need for.
• 16:46
  Tracy: I dunno if it's the right words, the right terminology.
• 16:49
  Nir: I mean, I, I guess that everyone there is, I mean, as, as they work globally with more and more countries and, and I've yet to see a country that is not in great need of feeling.
• 16:59
  Nir: It's the, the, the way it shows up is different.
• 17:02
  Nir: Yeah.
• 17:03
  Nir: The, the way and how people are, to what degree people are aware of it, how origin it is, changes, but like.
• 17:10
  Nir: We are all under the influence of so many cultural and collective layers of colonialism and war and disasters and famine and immigration and everything.
• 17:23
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 17:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:25
  Tracy: So can you tell us a bit, um, about the shadow work?
• 17:28
  Tracy: 'cause I know you've got an event coming up in Bali.
• 17:31
  Nir: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Tracy: Which is a real shame 'cause it's around the same time that we are having an event here in New Zealand, but.
• 17:36
  Tracy: It's okay.
• 17:37
  Tracy: Ah, sorry.
• 17:38
  Nir: It's
• 17:39
  Tracy: read.
• 17:39
  Tracy: It's alright.
• 17:40
  Nir: It's a shame.
• 17:42
  Nir: Uh, at, at, at, at some point in time I just stopped trying to match my, my events with other events because there are always some events somewhere.
• 17:50
  Tracy: There's always something going on.
• 17:51
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 17:52
  Nir: Yeah.
• 17:52
  Nir: So tell us about, tell us about is amazing.
• 17:55
  Nir: Okay, the shadow.
• 17:56
  Nir: So the shadow is basically, I mean, as a term, it's a Jungian term for those aspects are of cell that we deny, repress and disown, which are, you know, big words.
• 18:06
  Nir: But basically it says that we have a.
• 18:06
  Nir: In order to belong to our families or to feel loved and appreciated and safe in our families, we had to not be certain things.
• 18:18
  Nir: So for example, if you grew up in a family which is very ordered, then you can't be chaotic.
• 18:25
  Nir: And if you grew up in a family, which is very fair, then you can't be an unfair.
• 18:30
  Nir: And if you grew up in a socialistic family, you can be a capitalist.
• 18:35
  Nir: And if you grew up in a peace-loving family, you can be the fighter that you are born to be.
• 18:42
  Nir: With each family and culture.
• 18:43
  Nir: We'll see some differences of course, but in each family system and and culture, we'll also see in society, we'll also see that.
• 18:53
  Nir: We kind of organize ourselves internally so that the parts which are not accepted would somehow be hidden.
• 19:01
  Nir: And if we are really good at that, then we even hide in force from ourselves.
• 19:05
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:07
  Nir: So for example, I grew up in a family where we, we didn't have fights or even arguments, like very stable, very safe, not exactly emotionally, um, expressive.
• 19:19
  Nir: Um, I had to learn some of the emotional language as an adult.
• 19:24
  Nir: Because it wasn't, I mean, the emotions were maybe there, but we could not, we, I, I felt we couldn't talk about it.
• 19:32
  Nir: Uh, or for example, helplessness.
• 19:34
  Nir: And both of my parents couldn't be helpless in their lives because, you know, they had so much to deal with.
• 19:38
  Nir: So no one told me, you shouldn't be helpless, or no one said the word helplessness in our house.
• 19:44
  Nir: Like, I had to learn about this word in books, you know, and, and do a lot of work to.
• 19:51
  Nir: Realize it exists.
• 19:53
  Nir: It affects how I. With clients in multiple ways.
• 20:00
  Nir: And when I agree to be really in touch, more in touch with my helplessness, this shifts how it is for my client.
• 20:08
  Nir: So for example, if you look at helplessness in the shadow, it is super strongly related to the trauma or drama triangle.
• 20:16
  Nir: Yeah.
• 20:16
  Nir: Because as a victim you're helpless, right?
• 20:18
  Nir: That's a part of, that's a part of the definition, if you want, are not helpless.
• 20:22
  Nir: You're not a victim, right?
• 20:23
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 20:25
  Nir: You can do something about it so you're not a victim.
• 20:27
  Nir: Okay.
• 20:27
  Nir: Yeah.
• 20:28
  Nir: So what happens when the clients bring, or that you sense on them helplessness, and you are not in touch with your own helplessness, something is stir inside of you because you can't stand something that you can't stand yourself.
• 20:40
  Nir: You could also can't stand it in the other.
• 20:42
  Nir: So you'll do something.
• 20:44
  Nir: What are the options?
• 20:45
  Nir: Well, the classical options are one, you try to save them from feeling helpless.
• 20:49
  Nir: Like you should, you, you try to somehow carry them through the challenge or the difficulty and, and, and, and empower them and tell them whatever and different, different tools.
• 21:00
  Nir: Yeah.
• 21:00
  Nir: But.
• 21:02
  Nir: But the role that you're in is the role of the savior.
• 21:04
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 21:04
  Nir: And of course that's a very classical role for us helping professionals.
• 21:09
  Nir: And it's very dangerous because when you start to save someone, you get, you naturally become bigger than them, right?
• 21:16
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 21:16
  Nir: Which we know a constellation work in order of helping is not a good idea.
• 21:20
  Nir: And you are much more likely to cross your boundaries as you do that and give too much, and then you may feel used or abused by the client.
• 21:30
  Nir: Oops.
• 21:30
  Nir: You just move from the savior to being a victim yourself and with the more challenging client.
• 21:35
  Nir: When that happens, you're like, okay, enough with that, I'm not willing to be the victim here.
• 21:40
  Nir: And then you either cut the client completely, you save your connection with them, or you tell them, okay, no more extra calls.
• 21:49
  Nir: No more extra time, no more this, no more debt.
• 21:52
  Nir: These are the new rules, and you have to respect them.
• 21:54
  Nir: If you want to be in my space.
• 21:56
  Nir: Oops, you're a perpetrator.
• 21:58
  Nir: And, and that's a, a nice version of perpetrators.
• 22:00
  Nir: Sometimes it takes a form of blaming the client and telling them that they're this, and, and these are dynamics that almost anyone who've been working with people long enough, experienced at least once.
• 22:12
  Nir: And maybe when we are younger and less experienced and don't have enough supervision, and sometimes even despite all of that, when we are really caught into our helplessness and trauma patterns because of the helplessness we're not in touch with, it doesn't end well for the clients and sometimes for us.
• 22:28
  Nir: That's just one example.
• 22:30
  Nir: The same goes for our sexual issues.
• 22:32
  Nir: The same goes for our aggression.
• 22:34
  Nir: There is an an, an entire realm to explore here.
• 22:37
  Nir: That's while I've been exploring it for the last nine or 10 years.
• 22:41
  Nir: Very intensively.
• 22:42
  Tracy: Yeah,
• 22:42
  Nir: I feel like.
• 22:44
  Nir: I probably haven't, I probably haven't covered 10% of what there is to cover here, because one of the amazing things,
• 22:51
  Tracy: yeah,
• 22:52
  Nir: a little bit below, scratching the first the surface, like give myself that, but still 10%.
• 22:58
  Nir: Yeah, because we have clients, everything is going okay or not okay, but.
• 23:03
  Nir: Some experience or a lot of experience.
• 23:05
  Nir: Experience.
• 23:06
  Nir: And then we, we go through our, some shift of our own.
• 23:09
  Nir: Maybe we go to some workshop or receive a constellation session, something shifts for us around a certain topic and in the next week or two, five plus of our clients bring this topic.
• 23:21
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 23:22
  Nir: Right now.
• 23:23
  Nir: Where was it before?
• 23:25
  Nir: It's not that we tell them, Hey, I've been doing this workshop and now I know how to work with, um, belly issues.
• 23:32
  Nir: Let's, uh, let's look at your belly issues.
• 23:34
  Nir: We're like, oh, I'm just happy that I can sense my belly so deeply for the first time in my life.
• 23:39
  Nir: Yeah, and I don't share this with them, but somehow they all open their belly issues.
• 23:45
  Nir: And when you ask him, why didn't you share about this before?
• 23:48
  Nir: I didn't think it relates to here.
• 23:51
  Nir: I didn't think, I didn't feel it was relevant.
• 23:54
  Nir: Uh, I I didn't feel you could help me.
• 23:56
  Nir: I didn't feel you could understand me.
• 23:57
  Nir: Um, I am, I just didn't think at all about just, and how come now?
• 24:04
  Nir: I don't know.
• 24:04
  Nir: Some, somehow it just seems possible now.
• 24:07
  Nir: And what happened?
• 24:07
  Nir: They didn't change.
• 24:09
  Nir: The world didn't change.
• 24:10
  Nir: We changed.
• 24:12
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 24:13
  Nir: Yeah, we got in touch with something that we were not in touch with it before.
• 24:17
  Nir: Suddenly our clients are able to do the same.
• 24:20
  Nir: Or if we got in a topic that we are in touch with, but we got to a deeper layer, suddenly our clients can go deeper.
• 24:26
  Nir: So it's like our clients and our students as teachers unconsciously aligned themselves, um, along our lines of trauma and shadow.
• 24:36
  Nir: So what we can be in touch with, either due to trauma or to shadow, they can't bring.
• 24:42
  Nir: To working with us at least not in a good way.
• 24:45
  Nir: So they will either not bring it at all, but work with us to get the the other good thing that they can receive from us, which is good and said at the same time like they're getting something and not getting something and no one knows about it.
• 24:58
  Nir: They even don't know what they're not getting.
• 25:00
  Nir: Only when they go to someone else say, oh, it's interesting that ate feel safe or good to bring that I never even thought to bring it to my previous therapist, or in many cases they're just not coming to us.
• 25:11
  Nir: If they go to someone else, they feel it can hold the space for them because unconsciously they know that we can't.
• 25:17
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:18
  Nir: And the third option, common option is they know we can't hold it.
• 25:23
  Nir: They bring it nevertheless.
• 25:25
  Nir: And then there is a like hoping that we will somehow overcome our issues enough to hold it for them in the same way that they hope as children, that their parents will overcome their issues and be able to be there for them.
• 25:40
  Nir: And here all the.
• 25:43
  Nir: More challenging transference and corner transference comes in and we find ourselves disappointing them, having empathic failures, not doing it right, missing them again and again, shutting them down in different ways, judging them, even though we try to be okay and not to judge, but we actually judge because they're triggering us so.
• 26:05
  Nir: There is that, and when we do our shadow work and, and what I see very strongly through shadow constellations is that every time we manage to get more in touch with what we were not in touch with.
• 26:17
  Nir: They have more options, they have more space, they feel safer.
• 26:21
  Nir: And there is a trick I sometimes do, I'll, I'll show one of my tricks in advance.
• 26:26
  Nir: There is one lesson about shadows of sex, of sexuality, which of course touches on how to work with sexual abuse, uh, in this kind of work 'cause it's so prevalent and, and common.
• 26:38
  Nir: At some point I just tell the students I'm gonna place behind me.
• 26:43
  Nir: Some representations for some sexual traumas or sexual shadows that I'm not in touch with, I don't even know about.
• 26:51
  Nir: I have no idea where in my family and how long back they go, but I just dont acknowledge them replacing these representations.
• 26:59
  Nir: And then I place them behind me.
• 27:01
  Nir: And then look at, and you,
• 27:02
  Tracy: are you naming them in your, in your mind's eye or just placing the intention?
• 27:07
  Nir: I'm just noticing how, I'm just noticing how many are there and placing them.
• 27:12
  Tracy: Okay.
• 27:12
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 27:13
  Nir: And I asked the students, how do you feel now?
• 27:16
  Nir: And 90% of the students feels better, safer, more grounded, more present.
• 27:21
  Nir: Mm. Now I didn't do anything.
• 27:22
  Nir: I didn't even do one bit of my own work, so to speak.
• 27:27
  Nir: Or actually I did.
• 27:28
  Nir: I acknowledged what is it's here and it's in my shadow.
• 27:31
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 27:32
  Nir: And in some cases, I even don't tell the students, I just place what I play.
• 27:36
  Nir: Just place something and ask them how it feels.
• 27:39
  Nir: They effect is the same.
• 27:41
  Nir: It's not a psychological effect, it's, it's a field effect.
• 27:44
  Tracy: Do you yourself turn and look at it first, or do you just allow it to be there behind you in your,
• 27:50
  Nir: I improvise that part.
• 27:51
  Nir: So sometimes this and sometimes that it, it depends.
• 27:54
  Nir: So when we look at all the places where things go wrong between us and clients, not just the big wrongs, also the small wrongs.
• 28:03
  Nir: Like, you know, you, you are leading a session or a class.
• 28:09
  Nir: And something was missing.
• 28:11
  Nir: You weren't fully there.
• 28:12
  Nir: You worked really hard.
• 28:14
  Nir: You were exhausted afterwards.
• 28:15
  Nir: You don't understand why client felt unseen for some reason.
• 28:20
  Nir: You find yourself disconnected.
• 28:22
  Nir: You find yourself judgmental about one of the representatives or attracted to one of the representatives.
• 28:28
  Nir: Yeah, and somehow you don't manage to catch it in time and bring it into the work.
• 28:34
  Nir: These are all signs that, you know, you've been capturing by something in the field.
• 28:37
  Nir: Right.
• 28:38
  Nir: Blind spots.
• 28:39
  Nir: We familiar with that?
• 28:39
  Nir: Blind spots.
• 28:39
  Tracy: We seen that.
• 28:40
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:40
  Nir: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Nir: And exactly as you say, we are being captured by our blind spots, and our blind spots are in our shadow.
• 28:47
  Nir: So the idea in Shadow Constellations is to learn how to deeply look into our blind spots, both in hindsight, okay, this happened, how can I learn from it?
• 28:56
  Nir: So it'll happen differently next time, but also in real time.
• 28:59
  Nir: There are lots of practical ways that we can actually change what is happening right now because this is sometimes a real game changer.
• 29:07
  Nir: I'm thinking.
• 29:08
  Nir: Um, I'll, I'll give a couple of hopeful interesting examples.
• 29:12
  Nir: One example there was a group session, an in-person session.
• 29:15
  Nir: And one of the participants, one of the representatives was a beautiful woman.
• 29:20
  Nir: Okay.
• 29:21
  Nir: It happens.
• 29:21
  Nir: But I looked at her and I was like, I was charmed.
• 29:25
  Nir: I was like, she's so beautiful.
• 29:27
  Nir: Like it's heart stopping.
• 29:29
  Nir: Like, and you know, I'm married, I'm monogamous, I'm not looking for anything seriously.
• 29:35
  Nir: And it was lab.
• 29:37
  Nir: Like my heart rate goes up just looking at her, like trying not to look her at her too much because I want to concentrate on everyone else, and I'm like trying to see, and, and, okay, I'm experienced enough.
• 29:48
  Nir: So I'm like, okay, that's a phenomenon.
• 29:50
  Nir: I, it's not the kind of phenomenon I can bring to the group right now at the beginning of the session because it's gonna be a complete cheat show.
• 29:58
  Nir: Like, okay, I have to hold it myself.
• 30:00
  Nir: Fine.
• 30:01
  Nir: And I start to place representations for myself next to me to try to acknowledge what's going on and I get some, some relief and I enough for the session.
• 30:11
  Nir: And then at some point in the session it comes up that there is something we don't talk about and it has to do with one of the ancestors.
• 30:20
  Nir: I'm of course keeping it very vague for.
• 30:23
  Nir: And privacy reasons.
• 30:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Nir: And, and, and, and then when asked, the client says, oh yes, that storm.
• 30:29
  Nir: Yeah.
• 30:30
  Nir: I didn't want to bring that very big bad story.
• 30:33
  Nir: It was incest.
• 30:35
  Nir: And the moment he brought it in says, I was like, oh, she's just beautiful.
• 30:38
  Nir: That's it.
• 30:38
  Nir: Done.
• 30:39
  Nir: Finished.
• 30:40
  Nir: So, and I know that.
• 30:44
  Nir: Not in a known way.
• 30:45
  Nir: Not logically, no.
• 30:46
  Nir: Like systemically.
• 30:47
  Nir: I know that this topic happened at some point in my family system.
• 30:53
  Tracy: Yeah,
• 30:53
  Nir: yeah.
• 30:54
  Nir: It came, it came to me in my own constellations.
• 30:56
  Nir: Enough.
• 30:57
  Nir: I know it happened.
• 30:59
  Nir: Or I believe it happened, it's more precise.
• 31:01
  Nir: Probably some years ago I wouldn't have been able to identify what's going on.
• 31:05
  Nir: I would've been fighting the attraction.
• 31:08
  Nir: Um, I, I, we wouldn't have gotten into the incest part at all, which was very healing to get it, because I wouldn't have been able to even be in touch with that, with that option.
• 31:17
  Nir: Yeah, that's one.
• 31:19
  Nir: And the second one is from a training of years ago.
• 31:22
  Nir: Also Holocaust oriented.
• 31:24
  Nir: I have a lot of experience there with Fre and Holocaust.
• 31:28
  Nir: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:29
  Nir: Uh, and, and the client was a student that his father, um, and was from Romania, and he, as a small child, he was taken into working, working camps in Romania and already before the session.
• 31:44
  Nir: Again, because I trained myself to notice if there is something that I'm not enough in touch with in advance.
• 31:51
  Nir: It's a part of what I'm trained myself to do.
• 31:54
  Nir: And I was like, yeah, there are two things.
• 31:56
  Nir: And I have five minutes before the session begins.
• 31:59
  Nir: Fine.
• 31:59
  Nir: I placed two representations for them, uh, and forgot about it.
• 32:04
  Nir: And then as the session develops, I feel that, oh, there's something going on.
• 32:08
  Nir: I'm not sure.
• 32:10
  Nir: And then I remember the, the two representations I picked up one of them tuned in.
• 32:16
  Nir: Okay, this is what we need to acknowledge.
• 32:18
  Nir: Yeah, it's.
• 32:19
  Nir: Not completely in my shadow, but partly in my shadow.
• 32:22
  Nir: Now I can name it and the session could move nicely, and then after another short while it completely got blank, stopped.
• 32:33
  Nir: We felt everything was gray.
• 32:35
  Tracy: Sorry, the
• 32:36
  Nir: constellation stopped.
• 32:37
  Nir: Yeah.
• 32:38
  Nir: All the representative felt like, did not know what's going on.
• 32:42
  Nir: It's heavy, it's gray.
• 32:44
  Nir: I, for 20 minutes, I tried everything in my repertoire.
• 32:46
  Nir: Nothing worked.
• 32:47
  Nir: Just nothing worked.
• 32:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:50
  Nir: Um, one of these.
• 32:52
  Nir: You know, health sessions that you just want them to finish, which to say is you're being captured by helplessness because you can't help them.
• 32:59
  Nir: And I just didn't know what to do.
• 33:01
  Nir: Uh, and you know, it's a class I'm a teacher.
• 33:04
  Nir: It's even more, uh, uh, embarrassing and frustrating.
• 33:09
  Nir: How would it look?
• 33:09
  Nir: Call it blah blah in my mind.
• 33:11
  Nir: And I'm like, okay, let's stop everything and take a moment just to be with.
• 33:14
  Nir: What is happening here, and as I do that, my head just turns by itself to the other representation I placed in advance.
• 33:22
  Nir: I go there, I tune in, and I'm like, oh, the father of the client lost his father when he was eight in the work camp.
• 33:32
  Nir: His father is an orphan from his father.
• 33:35
  Nir: But guess what?
• 33:36
  Nir: My father too.
• 33:37
  Nir: What I did was just tell this to the group.
• 33:40
  Nir: I didn't bring any super move, any angels or something to save the situation.
• 33:47
  Nir: Yeah,
• 33:47
  Tracy: yeah.
• 33:48
  Nir: I said, well, I, I'm noticing this, that something feels stuck and gray and lonely and hopeless, and I feel it in myself too.
• 33:56
  Nir: We see that nothing seems to war.
• 33:58
  Nir: Okay.
• 33:58
  Nir: That happens.
• 33:59
  Nir: And I'm noticing that my father was also an orphan.
• 34:03
  Nir: And as I say that, the sun moved into the window, light came into the room, everyone felt free to move.
• 34:11
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:11
  Nir: Beautiful.
• 34:12
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Nir: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Nir: So for me, I'm, I'm a bit of a safety freak.
• 34:17
  Nir: Yeah.
• 34:18
  Nir: Uh, for me, one of the major reasons to do this work is because it makes us safer, not completely safe, because we can never be completely safe.
• 34:26
  Nir: Some clients or students will manage to draw out of us something that will retraumatize them or reenact trauma with them.
• 34:35
  Nir: I, I don't know, a serious facilitator or therapist who haven't missed up on some people in their career.
• 34:42
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:42
  Nir: But it makes us safer.
• 34:44
  Nir: It makes us able to work with people who are more traumatized, especially with more complex traumas.
• 34:51
  Nir: It makes us recover faster sometimes already inside a session.
• 34:56
  Nir: And I also really love this work because it is about peace, because why do we fight people?
• 35:04
  Nir: On the, on the deep level.
• 35:06
  Nir: Yeah.
• 35:07
  Nir: We fight people because we feel that they're not like us.
• 35:12
  Nir: They're evil.
• 35:13
  Nir: We are good.
• 35:14
  Nir: They don't understand how it is, how, how to live.
• 35:16
  Nir: Right, or to relate right or to, or to communicate well.
• 35:20
  Nir: They don't see us.
• 35:21
  Nir: We see people.
• 35:22
  Nir: They don't see people.
• 35:23
  Nir: So basically we we're projecting our shadow onto other people, and only then we can really fight them.
• 35:30
  Nir: We do it also on the collective level as nations.
• 35:33
  Nir: There are death lovers, we are life lovers.
• 35:36
  Nir: There are, um, bla famous.
• 35:38
  Nir: We worship it through God.
• 35:40
  Nir: They are, um, aggressive and colonialists.
• 35:45
  Nir: We are progressive and whatever.
• 35:48
  Nir: It's the same shit.
• 35:49
  Nir: Sorry.
• 35:50
  Nir: Excuse me, French.
• 35:50
  Nir: It's the same thing happening over and over again.
• 35:53
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Tracy: As I said, it's welcome here.
• 35:57
  Tracy: It's welcome here.
• 35:58
  Tracy: This
• 35:58
  Nir: true.
• 35:58
  Nir: So.
• 36:00
  Nir: So, so I believe that a lot of the fighting that we have with people is result of shadow, and the shadow is the child of trauma, the trauma of the previous generations.
• 36:12
  Nir: So what allowed or hindered our ancestors in their survival may go to the shadow or to the persona to who we should be.
• 36:21
  Nir: If we survive because we were strong.
• 36:23
  Nir: So from now on, our family name will be strength and will always be strong.
• 36:30
  Nir: Meaning we can be weak.
• 36:31
  Nir: And if we is not just my family, it's my entire culture, this is how my culture would be, which is fascinating to see how the cultural aspects of the shadow come into play.
• 36:44
  Nir: Um, also in how we facilitate for others.
• 36:47
  Nir: For example, I've, I've, I've given a training in Mumbai a while ago, and some of the exercises that I teach there are meant to develop the participants, um, differentiation being distinct.
• 37:01
  Nir: This is mine.
• 37:02
  Nir: This is, this is me, this is you, this is what I project on you.
• 37:05
  Nir: This is the same thing in myself, et cetera.
• 37:07
  Nir: Okay?
• 37:08
  Nir: They couldn't get it because Indians aged 40 at least, and pl plus.
• 37:16
  Nir: Grew up in joint families.
• 37:18
  Nir: The idea of there is a fully individual, you is here, but it's not in the body and the body, everyone is everyone's business kind of thing.
• 37:27
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:28
  Nir: So becoming distinct goes against the culture.
• 37:30
  Nir: So when, when they were.
• 37:32
  Nir: Actually practicing the, the processes that I taught them, all of them did it differently than I taught them.
• 37:37
  Nir: And it was like very clear, very simple process.
• 37:41
  Nir: I laid down on the blackboard, it was all written, didn't help, and then we could acknowledge it and then it got better.
• 37:48
  Nir: Or another day, um, I taught another, another structure and all of them did it differently.
• 37:54
  Nir: So I asked them, why did you do differently, the the facilitators?
• 37:57
  Nir: And they were like, well, the clients I, I, I told the clients to do what you told me to do, to say, to tell them and they wanted to do something else.
• 38:06
  Nir: I was like, oh, India is accommodating.
• 38:09
  Nir: You need to accommodate your clients.
• 38:10
  Nir: And after I've thought both online person in many places in the world, I can see how the culture, the cultural roots and the cultural shadows unconsciously affect our facilitation style.
• 38:22
  Nir: Um, in, in.
• 38:24
  Nir: Fascinating ways, which is why we also teach, uh, a lesson about cultural shadows in the training so that we are more aware of that understanding, accepting our, our culture so that we can be in touch with each shadows rather than trying to overcome them or ignore them and then, and made him come alive, you know, walk.
• 38:46
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:47
  Tracy: Brilliant.
• 38:48
  Tracy: It's, um, it is so, such powerful work constellations in itself.
• 38:53
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 38:54
  Tracy: But you've put that, you know, what you are offering is such a valuable tool on top of it.
• 38:59
  Tracy: I mean, it's combined, but the whole shadow side of it because it is such an important part of being a facilitator.
• 39:06
  Tracy: Right.
• 39:07
  Tracy: I've learned much on my journey as I'm sure all of us have.
• 39:12
  Tracy: But yeah, that's definitely, whew.
• 39:16
  Tracy: Part of the journey.
• 39:17
  Tracy: Right.
• 39:17
  Nir: It's never boring here.
• 39:19
  Nir: I can tell you that.
• 39:19
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:20
  Nir: Yeah.
• 39:20
  Nir: And the training in Bali will happen on the 17th through the 22nd of April this year.
• 39:26
  Nir: 20 26, 6 days in person work, international group
• 39:33
  Tracy: and
• 39:33
  Nir: in in Ubud.
• 39:35
  Nir: Yes.
• 39:35
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:37
  Nir: We will go through.
• 39:39
  Nir: The basics of shadow work, some basics of family constellations.
• 39:42
  Nir: So even if people don't know, didn't learn constellations, but they are working with people, and then they'll get the basics, orders of love and understanding phenomenology and systemic thinking.
• 39:53
  Nir: Then we'll dive into shadows in the clinic.
• 39:55
  Nir: So what really happens under the surface of what seemingly is.
• 40:00
  Nir: Working well or, or not working well and we don't know why.
• 40:04
  Nir: Yeah.
• 40:05
  Nir: Um, cultural shadows, golden shadows, which are about
• 40:09
  Tracy: golden shadows.
• 40:10
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:10
  Nir: Yeah.
• 40:11
  Nir: Because normal shadows is like what you think is bad and you don't want to be associated with
• 40:16
  Tracy: Right.
• 40:16
  Nir: And golden shadows.
• 40:16
  Nir: It's about what you think is great and you are set it, you don't have it in yourself, and then you are more likely to admire or to fall in love or to be attracted to p to people who have it.
• 40:28
  Nir: This is a part of what happens in with gurus, for example.
• 40:30
  Nir: It's like I don't have that kind of connection, spiritual connection to the divine that my guru has.
• 40:39
  Nir: So I look up to my guru and I kind of confuse the guru with the connection to the divine.
• 40:47
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Nir: Because for me, this is where they are.
• 40:49
  Nir: So it's kind of a trans, but we all have a connection to the divine.
• 40:53
  Nir: So why do I feel that they don't have it?
• 40:55
  Nir: Well, for me, the connection to the divine is mixed up with something that easily made regular shadow.
• 41:02
  Nir: So let's say, oh, really, spiritual people don't have money.
• 41:06
  Nir: Or really spiritual people are hippies, or really spiritual people are abusers because.
• 41:11
  Nir: That also happens.
• 41:13
  Nir: So whatever it is in my, my system that is alive around this or really, and you know, it can change spiritual to reach rich people like that, powerful people like that.
• 41:22
  Nir: So we have thing, yes, I want to be powerful, but I don't want to hurt anyone.
• 41:29
  Nir: Oops.
• 41:30
  Nir: Problem if, for me, power means I have to hear, hurt someone.
• 41:33
  Nir: So I want to do something to change this inner mind, um, pattern.
• 41:38
  Nir: Yeah.
• 41:39
  Nir: And then we'll dive into shadows of helplessness, which is critical for any person who works with people as a professional helper.
• 41:48
  Nir: Also, because of the silent accomplice, which I didn't mention before, but I leave that to the training and we go into shadows of aggression and vulnerability.
• 41:56
  Nir: How do we deal with the aggression and vulnerability of our clients who are not in touch with ourselves?
• 42:01
  Nir: Tricky.
• 42:02
  Nir: Then when the container is strong enough, we go into shadows of sexuality on sexual abuse.
• 42:09
  Nir: We end up with shadows of death and for will because at least in the West, we are in such a death in the shadow culture and it affects how we live and it affects how things end for us.
• 42:23
  Nir: And it affects the, we allow ourselves to be in life because it'll end one day.
• 42:28
  Nir: So what's the point?
• 42:29
  Nir: And it also has to do a lot with belonging because when we're, when we have death in our shadow, we, we can't.
• 42:37
  Nir: We can't really acknowledge the debt people that needs to be acknowledged in our system.
• 42:43
  Nir: 'cause we don't want to be in touch with the debt.
• 42:45
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:47
  Nir: And sometimes the result is the opposite.
• 42:49
  Nir: We are over involved with the debt because we.
• 42:53
  Nir: Don't want to be in touch with it.
• 42:55
  Nir: We don't want to see it.
• 42:56
  Nir: So we're not aware that we had some soul exchange with people who died that needs to be worked with.
• 43:02
  Nir: Um, and some of the people who are depressed or who are suicidal, actually, it's a very often, it's a systemic thing, another personal thing, or at least as a strong systemic aspect to it.
• 43:16
  Nir: That has to do with, we don't even talk about the effect of having dead people in our family.
• 43:23
  Tracy: A lot of people don't talk about the people in the family who have suicided through the generations because
• 43:29
  Nir: yes,
• 43:29
  Tracy: we won't, we won't talk about that.
• 43:30
  Tracy: That brings shame or that might, it might happen again, or
• 43:36
  Nir: Yeah, people might get ideas.
• 43:38
  Nir: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Nir: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:40
  Nir: And the experience is actually the opposite, that if you talk about it free and openly because, and, and, and for that, you need to come to terms with death yourself and suicide yourself.
• 43:50
  Nir: Mm-hmm.
• 43:51
  Nir: You can see the connections in the family system and how you're drawn or someone in your family may be drawn to commit suicide because they're following someone who committed suicide and that person also followed someone or maybe just had so many dead people in their system, sort of the way the center of weight moved to the area of the dead and like pulled them just to belong.
• 44:16
  Nir: Yeah, so there is many nuances here.
• 44:20
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 44:21
  Nir: Um, yeah.
• 44:24
  Nir: Is there anything else you want to ask me about the work robotic training in order to our time is, uh, near to an end and I want to respect that.
• 44:32
  Tracy: Oh, really?
• 44:32
  Tracy: Gosh.
• 44:33
  Tracy: So I, I know that you've sent me your details, but I always ask people just to share it audibly.
• 44:39
  Tracy: How can people get in touch with.
• 44:41
  Nir: Cool.
• 44:42
  Nir: So my website is near sterman.com, N-A-R-E-S-T-R-M-A n.com.
• 44:48
  Nir: Or you can just write Shadow Constellations and it'll take you there as it's, um.
• 44:53
  Nir: It's my, my baby, so to speak.
• 44:57
  Tracy: It's,
• 44:57
  Nir: yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:59
  Nir: And, and from there, there is a contact form that you can write me from and you can also write my email near sterman@gmail.com.
• 45:08
  Nir: Um, and, and generally I couldn't find me on Facebook.
• 45:11
  Nir: I'm, I'm generally easy to find and there there is no other nearest one in the world.
• 45:16
  Nir: So
• 45:18
  Tracy: unique.
• 45:19
  Nir: Yeah.
• 45:20
  Nir: Uh, how long would, how long will I check it?
• 45:22
  Nir: Once in a while?
• 45:24
  Nir: Sorry.
• 45:25
  Tracy: How long will you be in Bali for?
• 45:26
  Tracy: Are you gonna be there for quite a, a while after your
• 45:30
  Nir: No, I, I'll come a few days in advance to get in touch with the land and the spirits of the land and, and like tune in, tune in the, the land and the space.
• 45:42
  Nir: I'll probably stay a couple of days more to.
• 45:45
  Nir: Um, relax and enjoy beautiful ballet.
• 45:47
  Nir: It's a really special place.
• 45:49
  Nir: Oh, I forgot to say we'll have a sound healing in the middle session, in the middle of the training, and a waterfall lancing at the end.
• 45:56
  Nir: So it's like a relay special and beautiful container.
• 46:00
  Nir: Are
• 46:01
  Tracy: you
• 46:01
  Nir: going the
• 46:02
  Tracy: pyramids of chi for the sound?
• 46:05
  Tracy: Do you go to the pyramids?
• 46:07
  Tracy: The pyramids of Q for the sound healing?
• 46:10
  Nir: Uh, actually my organizer is doing that, so I don't know what she had in mind if we'll go somewhere or do it in the venue itself.
• 46:15
  Nir: I say, and the venue itself is beautiful, like really nice hotel with a pool and food and everything.
• 46:22
  Nir: And, but I'll, I, I'll only be there for a limited time and because my family will stay, uh, at that point in Vietnam.
• 46:31
  Nir: I'll go back to Vietnam.
• 46:33
  Nir: I also have a training there, but still, but it'll be in the Vietnam.
• 46:36
  Nir: I mean, I'll be speaking English with Vietnamese translation, so I let the organize it there and do the work.
• 46:43
  Nir: Um, oh, if anyone here is listening from India on the beginning of April, I'll have, uh, two and a half days workshop about incarnation and early prenatal shadows, shadow constellations.
• 46:56
  Nir: So as you mentioned it, so this will also happen soon.
• 47:01
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 47:01
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 47:02
  Tracy: So that's the same, the same one that I did with you.
• 47:05
  Tracy: Is it same?
• 47:06
  Nir: Similar, yeah, similar.
• 47:08
  Nir: There's always some changes with similar And there is Portugal in Centra that Jo is organizing will come Yeah.
• 47:16
  Nir: In September.
• 47:17
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 47:18
  Nir: There are lots of, lots of options to meet in person this year.
• 47:21
  Nir: In addition to the online trainings.
• 47:23
  Nir: Yeah.
• 47:24
  Tracy: Getting fomo.
• 47:26
  Tracy: Mind.
• 47:28
  Nir: That's, that's exactly what I wanted you to feel.
• 47:31
  Nir: Very good.
• 47:32
  Tracy: I have achieved, um, yeah, I did a lot of traveling last year, so my, I've told myself no traveling this year.
• 47:40
  Tracy: Uh, out of the country.
• 47:42
  Nir: Yeah,
• 47:42
  Tracy: around the country.
• 47:43
  Tracy: Yes.
• 47:43
  Tracy: But
• 47:45
  Nir: yeah, I hear
• 47:46
  Tracy: you.
• 47:46
  Tracy: That there's nothing happening around the country, but you never know.
• 47:49
  Tracy: We'll get to meet in person someday.
• 47:52
  Tracy: Someday.
• 47:52
  Nir: I hope so.
• 47:54
  Tracy: Ooh.
• 47:55
  Tracy: Yeah, that would be lovely.
• 47:56
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 47:56
  Tracy: Um,
• 47:57
  Nir: indeed.
• 47:57
  Tracy: Oh, well, one question I usually do ask, how do you describe the work?
• 48:02
  Tracy: I'll just throw that in the end because I wanna do a little compilation of everybody.
• 48:06
  Nir: Mm-hmm.
• 48:07
  Tracy: Sharing how they do it.
• 48:08
  Tracy: So how do you describe the work when you meet someone for the first time,
• 48:13
  Nir: constellation work or shadow constellations?
• 48:15
  Nir: What are you asking about?
• 48:17
  Tracy: Well, let's start with constellation work.
• 48:19
  Tracy: How do you describe that?
• 48:20
  Nir: What I usually do is I ask the person about something in their life that is not working well for them.
• 48:25
  Nir: Physical, emotional, relational, mental otherwise.
• 48:28
  Nir: And then I use what they give me as a way.
• 48:34
  Nir: Say, well, let's say, uh, the person says, I have a child, uh, who is always really angry and I don't know what's wrong with them.
• 48:42
  Nir: Like, we like, okay, I'm saying, well, let's have a look at it.
• 48:46
  Nir: Reconciliation perspective, maybe for example.
• 48:49
  Nir: This anger?
• 48:50
  Nir: Or is it anger or rage?
• 48:52
  Nir: Because when you talk, it sounds like rage.
• 48:54
  Nir: Yes.
• 48:55
  Nir: Yes.
• 48:55
  Nir: It's rage.
• 48:56
  Nir: Okay, good.
• 48:57
  Nir: And so that rage, it makes me wonder as a constellation, where is it coming from?
• 49:01
  Nir: Is your child holding only hair rage or is he holding some rage from someone else in the family where people in your family were very rageful or were really traumatized and could not be rageful, but the rage was inside?
• 49:18
  Nir: I could then bring in some of the shadow and ask between you and your partner, how do you connect with your own rage?
• 49:25
  Nir: And your rage is an important emotion.
• 49:27
  Nir: It's the emotion that you're supposed to feel when you are seriously hurt or abused.
• 49:33
  Nir: You're supposed to feel rage.
• 49:35
  Nir: It gives you the power to fight back or or to do something about it.
• 49:40
  Nir: Yeah, so rage itself, it's not that, but if your child is not hurt or abused and they feel rage, there must be a reason which is not necessarily only with them.
• 49:49
  Nir: So this way I start to explain the systemic and the intergenerational aspects and throw in a bunch of the shadow because say, well, if you are never angry, and it's like.
• 50:02
  Nir: A system from a systemic point of view, if there is something that one part of the system doesn't carry someone else in the system will carry for.
• 50:11
  Nir: It's like carrying a wound person on a stretcher.
• 50:14
  Nir: Like if you don't hold it, it'll fall.
• 50:17
  Nir: So when you don't hold it, someone else holds it.
• 50:19
  Nir: So instead of each one of us carrying one part of it, now someone is carrying two or three and they fall apart under the pressure.
• 50:29
  Nir: And if you manage to help them by getting in touch with your, what you're not in touch with, you will help them very likely to make a shift.
• 50:39
  Nir: And sometimes in the constellation, or very often in the constellation, we we'll see that I'm not in touch with my anger because.
• 50:48
  Nir: Rage because my mom grew up with a foster family and she would never allow herself to be really angry.
• 50:55
  Nir: Or, uh, my dad grew up with an alcoholic father.
• 50:59
  Nir: Not my story, but with an alcoholic father.
• 51:02
  Nir: And, and if he will allow himself to rage, he would be beaten to death.
• 51:06
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 51:06
  Nir: And then we ask, and why was the federal alcoholic like, oh, you know, Vietnam?
• 51:12
  Nir: So this story unfolds.
• 51:15
  Nir: Sometimes I explain it like this and sometimes I just give some examples about intergenerational trauma transfer, and sometimes I just say, you know, it's very manic
• 51:24
  Tracy: depending on the audience, right?
• 51:26
  Tracy: Where do I go with this?
• 51:27
  Nir: Yeah.
• 51:28
  Nir: Because the whole idea of teaching I, I mean, I'm a teacher, not, not because I teach constellations or shadow work or shadow conation.
• 51:37
  Nir: I was a teacher before that.
• 51:39
  Nir: And a basic principles in teaching is that you need to match.
• 51:43
  Nir: Not just the content, but how you present the content to the people in ways they can understand it.
• 51:48
  Nir: So you need to have different ways of explaining things, which are all true, but different people will need different ways.
• 51:54
  Nir: So sometimes I explain things from different perspectives just so that you'll visualize this and that person will feel it in their body and a third person will tune in their emotion.
• 52:05
  Nir: Okay?
• 52:05
  Nir: And now they get it.
• 52:07
  Nir: And it much easier to do one-on-one.
• 52:09
  Nir: Of course.
• 52:10
  Nir: I also just say it's an amazing healing work, you know, and come do a workshop.
• 52:15
  Tracy: It's easier to see than it is to, to describe.
• 52:19
  Nir: It's true, but I usually don't do that.
• 52:21
  Nir: Not because it's not true, just because it sounds, you know, sleazy.
• 52:25
  Nir: You can't really understand it.
• 52:27
  Nir: And unless you really come to my workshop like that's.
• 52:31
  Nir: I just say, and, and, and, you know, I have materials online for people.
• 52:36
  Nir: You can watch a recording of some of my se, some of my, um, webinars, uh, or some sessions in conferences, and you can, they always include some process that they facilitate.
• 52:47
  Nir: You can listen, watch it, or listen to it and go through the process yourself and feel.
• 52:52
  Nir: What does it do to you?
• 52:54
  Nir: Do you connect and resonate with the work?
• 52:56
  Nir: With myself, if you have yes to all, I'll be happy to meet you.
• 52:59
  Nir: If you don't resonate with me or the work, that's perfectly fine.
• 53:01
  Nir: I'm glad we have it cleared in advance and, and you can keep on looking for someone that's resonates for you.
• 53:09
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 53:09
  Nir: Like I really don't want to teach people that's like, I hate the kind of marketing that makes people come because.
• 53:17
  Nir: Someone pushed their buttons.
• 53:19
  Nir: I'm like, I consciously do a lot of work when I in market, not to push people's button, but to say, help them see what's.
• 53:29
  Nir: What's in it for them really?
• 53:31
  Nir: Not finding their pain points and pushing on them so they can't wait.
• 53:35
  Nir: Yeah.
• 53:35
  Nir: Like
• 53:36
  Tracy: yeah.
• 53:37
  Nir: Or really good.
• 53:38
  Nir: Yeah.
• 53:39
  Nir: I don't, I don't want to be a part of the system, like on a very deep level.
• 53:42
  Nir: I think it's a part of what driving not just the healing world, but our entire world, it drive us to the brink of someplace bad and being always pushed to fear and to move from fear and scarcity.
• 53:54
  Nir: And I'm like, it's okay if you don't learn with me.
• 53:58
  Nir: Of course I can see the benefits of learning with me, but it's okay if you don't see them.
• 54:03
  Nir: I don't want to convince you.
• 54:06
  Nir: I, I, I, I want you to check if you have any inner call, and if yes, let's go there.
• 54:14
  Nir: And if not, for whatever reason, it's really fine.
• 54:18
  Nir: I, I respect that.
• 54:19
  Nir: I mean, it, it's more than, you know, good practice business.
• 54:22
  Nir: Like I really respect that.
• 54:23
  Nir: Some people should not learn with me.
• 54:25
  Nir: At this time in their lives and my life and my professional development, maybe only 10 or five or 10 years, we'll do it.
• 54:32
  Nir: You know, I had the client once that he was a client for two years, then she wanted to come back when I was already doing constellations, and I was like, let's try this new thing.
• 54:42
  Nir: She was like, okay, let's try this new thing.
• 54:44
  Nir: After five minutes near and not connected with this modality, it's not for me.
• 54:48
  Nir: Let's do the other thing, right?
• 54:50
  Nir: Okay.
• 54:50
  Nir: Respect that.
• 54:52
  Nir: Four years later, she learned Constellation work with other teachers, and she's a brilliant facilitator.
• 54:59
  Nir: I knew that she would be a brilliant facilitator.
• 55:02
  Nir: I didn't see any reason to push her.
• 55:04
  Tracy: That'll be the right time too, doesn't it?
• 55:06
  Nir: Right
• 55:07
  Tracy: time.
• 55:07
  Nir: Exactly.
• 55:08
  Nir: So I'm trusting in, in that sense.
• 55:10
  Nir: I'm inviting.
• 55:11
  Nir: I'm marketing, I'm calling.
• 55:13
  Nir: Whoever feels called, please come.
• 55:15
  Nir: All good.
• 55:16
  Nir: But yeah, it's about safety, you know?
• 55:19
  Nir: Absolutely.
• 55:19
  Nir: I want you to feel safe with me.
• 55:20
  Nir: Absolutely.
• 55:21
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 55:22
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 55:22
  Nir: And if they push your buttons, I'm not safe for you.
• 55:24
  Nir: I don't want you to be with me.
• 55:26
  Nir: If you feel it and pushing your buttons, that's not the idea.
• 55:30
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 55:31
  Tracy: And you've gotta be ready to look at your shadow stuff.
• 55:33
  Tracy: It's a big subject for a lot of people.
• 55:35
  Tracy: Right.
• 55:36
  Tracy: Um, but it's, um, yeah, as a facilitator, as it's so important.
• 55:41
  Nir: It's essential.
• 55:42
  Nir: But, and that's important.
• 55:43
  Nir: I think that many, I know that many people are afraid of doing this work because what will I find And, and I just want to say that in the same way that I do on my marketing, I also facilitate and teach, which means I'm not telling you that you have to look into your shadows.
• 56:00
  Nir: I'm telling you that there is something for you there.
• 56:02
  Nir: Then you have a choice, and we look together into how to do it in a way which will be safe for you, and that is important to understand.
• 56:11
  Nir: I, I don't assume that you consent to look at all of your shadows because you came to a Shadow confessions training.
• 56:17
  Nir: That doesn't make sense.
• 56:19
  Nir: Like, this is what I'll be teaching, and you always have a choice to participate or not, and to participate differently than what I suggest.
• 56:27
  Nir: To ask for a different option to, to say what doesn't work for you and, and so that you can see how something can work for you.
• 56:35
  Nir: I can promise that I find the right way for everyone, but I don't want to do the wrong way to anyone.
• 56:42
  Tracy: Brilliant coming from the heart and authentic space.
• 56:46
  Tracy: Which is fantastic.
• 56:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 56:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 56:49
  Tracy: I really love your work.
• 56:51
  Tracy: It's a great admirer of it, so thank you.
• 56:53
  Tracy: Um, it's been amazing to have.
• 56:55
  Tracy: Thank you.
• 56:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 56:56
  Tracy: I can't believe we've already, we're well over time, but that's fine.
• 56:59
  Tracy: I don't mind personally, um, as long as I'm taking too much of your time.
• 57:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 57:05
  Tracy: Thank you so much.
• 57:06
  Tracy: Uh, look forward to, um.
• 57:09
  Tracy: Seeing you one day in person, but also sharing this with people.
• 57:12
  Tracy: 'cause I feel there's so much value that people will receive from this conversation and uh, and maybe going forward there will be people that hear it and go, end up going to Bali with you or find you online.
• 57:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 57:26
  Nir: Yeah.
• 57:27
  Nir: Thank you so much.
• 57:28
  Nir: I really appreciate the invitation to come here and this lively, gentle flowing talk with you.
• 57:34
  Tracy: Oh, you're welcome.
• 57:35
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:37
  Tracy: My intention is to, to, you know, I've been lucky enough to meet lots of amazing people through either online or in person, and to share it so that others can, uh, also receive the benefits.
• 57:49
  Tracy: So very grateful.
• 57:51
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 57:52
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 57:52
  Nir: Thank you so much.
• 57:54
  Tracy: You are welcome.
• 57:55
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 57:57
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 58:01
  Tracy: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 58:05
  Tracy: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 58:17
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.