Latest / Follow the Leighder / Christian Zionism, Israel, and Empire | Dr. Kathleen McCallie

Transcript

Christian Zionism, Israel, and Empire | Dr. Kathleen McCallie · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me from Oklahoma today, y'all. Prepare to be humbled. This is going to be a very rich conversation, is Dr. Kathleen McCallie. Welcome. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Thank you. I'm a fan of Leigh Larson and it's an honor to be here today. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Dr. McCallie I am a fan of you. And I'm we're gonna show my audience exactly why I'm a fan. ⁓ I know Dr. McCallie through my time at Phillips Theological Seminary ⁓ when I went through for my master's in theological studies. Dr. McCallie is the associate professor of ministerial leadership and ethics and has a PhD in political science and is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and member of Spiritual Directors International. I had the opportunity. I've taken a few classes with Dr. McAley and I had the opportunity to ⁓ get to know you ⁓ better in in on the border of Arizona and Mexico of all places. Here we are going to seminary in Oklahoma, but we're bonding in a completely different environment for the Borderlink's immersion trip. ⁓ listeners, if you remember about a month or so ago I interviewed actually Borderlink's and and to talk about what was going on so we could highlight you know, the ICE DHS narrative versus what they're they're saying, Kaylin is seeing over there. But Dr. McCally, you have such an impressive resume. Can you talk about your your journey? Have you always been a part of ⁓ religion, theology, or was this something later in life? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I was very fortunate to be raised by parents who taught me to ask questions and think critically. So from the beginning, though I didn't do a lot of growing up in church, I started growing to church when I was a teenager. And it was a church where people ask questions. And research and information and science were never at odds with faith for me. And social justice has always been an important part of my faith. So I grew up with in a church that was very active in the community, very concerned about world hunger and global issues. And my journey has consistently deepened that connection. Yeah, so I studied political science partly because I traveled to Central America with mission groups. when I was young and learned about some of the international issues that affected poverty and wealth distribution. And I decided I needed to understand that more. And so my PhD in political science is really in ethics of international relations primarily, and especially about how trade policy and international policies affect the lives of people all around the world. That always was consistently a part of my faith journey too. So I learned about Palestine and Israel first through the church. Actually, it was a Jewish teacher who first raised my consciousness about what was going on for Palestinians. And then while I was working on my PhD, I studied that issue. was able to take a seminar with a professor who had been the US diplomat and the ⁓ representative from the United Nations to for the US and learned more about the Palestinian issues from him. And then my first trip there was in 2014. I went with a group of UCC clergy all very interested in peacemaking efforts. I because of my the experience was so profound, I proposed to the seminary that I take students from the seminary on travel classes to Palestine and Israel. And I was able to do that in 2020 and then again in 2023. So the last time I was there was in January of 2023, just nine months before the October attacks from Gaza to Israel and then the reciprocal attacks. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Well and and you know, the history of that region is so complex, so rich. There is I mean, that Palestine is a sacred place for a lot of people. Can you talk about what you and your groups were doing when you were there? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. One of the things that we did was listen to people from various sides, from various perspectives. And of course, there is a lot of polarization and and literally different human rights and legal rights, depending on whether you are an Israeli citizen or a Palestinian. You know, I grew up hearing about the Israeli people, the Israelites. And in the Bible, when we and in church and even in our liturgy, we talk about Israel as a symbol for the people of God, the people who received the promise of Abraham to inherit this particular role of being God's people. And so it was really important for me to begin to understand and then to teach that all of those ancient texts about the Israelites are. Claimed by Muslims, Jews, Christians ⁓ our spiritual ancestors. So when we think about, like I at church camp, I remember singing the song. Leigh, did you ever sing the song Father Abraham has many sons? Okay. ⁓ so even as a Christian growing up, I was claiming, I taught we are sons and daughters of Abraham. So when you think about the claim made by Zionists. That particular land is theirs because of that ancient promise, then it's confusing because lots of Palestinians are Christians, others are Muslims, and they would claim that too. So the whole argument about who has a right to that land is something that's very complex and very intertwined with religious teachings. What I learned both in my PhD program as well as talking to people there is that 1947 and 1948, when the modern state of Israel was created, was a time when the especially the United States and the UK funded the takeover of land that had been Palestinian land. So if you think about the way Native Americans were moved off of land and white settlers came in, that's very much like what happened in 47 and 48. So about a million people were displaced. And this was the main takeaway from my professor that I studied with that within one year, 80% of the people of Palestine were gone. Many were displaced to other areas, but many were killed. So you have Palestinian refugees in all the countries around what is now called Israel, the nation of Israel. And it's so important to make a distinction between Israeli citizens, especially Zionists, and Jewish people, because There are some people who say that anyone who criticizes the nation of Israel is being anti-Semitic. I am completely committed to defending the Jewish people and the Jewish ethos and religious teachings. But not all Israeli citizens are religious people. Many are atheists, and many There's a dis there's a distinction within the Jewish community worldwide about Zionism. Zionism started out as an attempt to have a safe place for Jewish people where they could be equal citizens and not be discriminated against. A lovely vision. But then a new form of Zionism came into being in the 1970s, and it is very much a goal for ethics. Theocratic government for a government where there's no separation between religion and political power, where people who are Jewish have different rights than other people. So if you think about like comparing it to Christian nationalism, this is a kind of Zionism is a kind of Jewish nationalism in the nation of modern Israel. And many Jews are against it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I know that you you you talk about how ⁓ the formation of the state of Israel back in the 40s and 50s is crucial to now. ⁓ it does feel like everyone is having to catch up on a lot of history very quickly. For so many people, they're trying to figure out where did rapture theology come from? Where did this relationship with Israel, the state come from? Like everything feels like wait, and it's because Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: There has been this whole fringe movement for decades building towards this. I came across my studies recently that said early, we can see early traces of Christian Zionism in Martin Luther and John Calvin when they were trying to formulate their themselves against the Catholics and the quote Turks. They said the popes and the Turks was how they worded it. ⁓ so that would have been Catholics and Muslims. So I'm wondering, and but it wasn't like what we're seeing now. It was very much almost like we know we're not Catholic, we know we're not Muslim. Can we be allies with the Jews? Like that it was a different question, especially when we look at Christian Jewish history up until then. ⁓ and so you start to see this early and then some folks have also said that it it took a turn with Danbury in the eighteen hundreds. But but really like it seems like this was all the money, the power of it came from post Holocaust State of Israel creation. Is that kind of where we can point to like concretely in modern history? This 'cause again, people are we're having to catch up, Dr. McCallie. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: There's so much to talk about. It is it is essential that Christians, the all people of faith and all people of good conscience, even if they're not religious, understand that Christianity was guilty of persecuting the Jews. That that in many ways, and especially if you go back and look at German history before the Holocaust, that there was this. sense of national identity. We're going to make Germany great again. We're Christian and we blame the Jews for the the German loss in World War One, for instance. And so not just in Germany, but in lots of places, Christians have persecuted the Jews and like, you know, the Jews killed Jesus. The Jews are evil. ⁓ This is Susanna Heschel is one of the authors, one of the scholars who I recommend on this, and she's really, really good on this. And her father, Abraham Heschel, of course, also taught about this. But the idea that Christians make themselves look better by putting down the Jews, by saying, you know, the Jews killed Jesus and things like that. Now, part of what we have to think about is what does it mean to be Jewish? Is that a religious identity, a national identity? And even when you go back to scriptures and you read about the nation of Israel, we have to think about what is a nation? So this and it this is so important now because again, of Christian nationalism. And we can ask ourselves: what does it mean to be Christian? How is that connected with being American? and so forth. And it's the same for Jewish people. So there are a lot of Jewish people who enter who identify culturally as Jewish but aren't necessarily religious. Maybe they never go to synagogue. They it's not a religious thing for them, but they're very proud Jews. And so this is a this is a identity conflict and complexity that goes way, way, way back. Way before, you know, even before before Luther. And the the conflict between Muslims and Jews historically is also an interesting history. There are times in different parts of the world, especially in different regions of the Middle East where there were conflicts between Jews and Muslims, and other times where they lived together peacefully. And I think it's so important for us to go back to history and see that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have lived together peacefully for centuries in many parts of the world. It certainly is possible to do that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I think and and correct me if I'm wrong, Cordoba. That was a major mixed historical diverse space. Am I is I there's another it's it was in Spain, I wanna say. Yeah. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I think you're right. Yeah, there are there that whole region is has some beautiful rich history that's very encouraging to me because sometimes we get the idea that these groups can't live together in peace, but I strongly believe that they can. And the region of Palestine is a place where there were Christians, Jews, and Muslims living together. So Elias Shakur has the book Blood Brothers. And I've been very blessed when I've taken students there to meet with Elijah Shakur and hear his story. But he was a person who was a little boy. He was growing up in a village where there were Jews, Christians, and Muslims. He's Christian. But his area in Palestine is now part of Israel, and his village is gone, and he he is still in Palestine. And so there are still some survivors, Jean Zaru. is another one. She's traveled in the United States and written a lot. And she also was a little girl. So there are people that can still tell the story of what it was like. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well and and Dr. McCaulay, for my listeners who maybe did not grow up in the faith to understand these stories and why Jerusalem, why Palestine, why this region is is critical? This is a very heavy question, so I'm gonna try and keep it light, but can you give maybe like a one to two sentence reason why the Christians want the place, the Jews want the territory, and the Muslims want the land? Like why what is each of their claim? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. If you if when we go back and we read the ancient scriptures that we have, we know that the city that is now Jerusalem was a place where there was an ancient temple and that it was a the heart of the Jewish people's identity and religious practice going back. To King Solomon, King David, you know, it's very, very ancient. And that the the idea that God's spirit was present in a different way there than anywhere else in the world. Now, there are people, even back then, there were people who talked about that. Like, is that really what God is like? That God is really present in one place more than others, or with one people more than others. So that that was a contested claim all along. But because the ancient temple was there, it was, and of course, this is where Jesus and his followers were the last few days before his death, his crucifixion, his resurrection. So all of those things happened at that place where that temple was. The temple was destroyed and rebuilt, you know, a number of times. Then For Muslims, it's a sacred place because it is the place where Prophet Muhammad ascended into heaven for his night journey. And that's again, that that that is a so it is a very sacred place, the second most sacred place for Muslims. The we know a little bit about the history of the Crusades, probably all of us have heard of that, you know, the Holy Grail and the Crusades and so forth. So from Hundreds and hundreds of years ago, people were fighting over this land. But we have to ask ourselves in any conflict, how much of it is really religious and how much of it is political or economic? And so the fighting right now, I do believe that the Temple Mount, the hilltop where remnants of the ancient temple and then the beautiful Alaska Mosque has has been there. That that controlling that that religious site is a key part of the conflict. But I don't think it's the only part of the conflict. For instance, like if we ask why was Jesus killed, people will get different ideas, you know, some people will say because God demanded a sacrifice, blah, blah, blah. But other people will say, no, it had more to do with his political conflict. With the Roman ruler at the time. Similarly, if we ask about what's going on now, I don't think the United States government is interested in the region for religious reasons for religious purposes. I think the oil, the access to oil and military strategy is why the United States has invested. So much money, if you think cumulatively since 1947, the United States has given more than $300 billion to the state of Israel, and 97% of that goes for their military. And that is that is more than twice as much as has been given to any other country by the US since that time. So why is the United States as a government so interested? Well, because we we need oil, we need a foothold in the Middle East. I don't think it has anything to do with religion. So there are just a variety of ways of looking at this. Leigh/@followtheleighder: religion is a very easy way to sell it to the to the religious voters that ⁓ you know, I they're going along I've even like seen them start to prime the Nigerian Christian narrative. And like w our administration doesn't care about Nigerian Christians. that's not their but that's how they're gonna prime it. I ⁓ we have to go and Nigeria's obviously so much oil. ⁓ in in the same vein that you're talking about. So it's Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I agree and and there's a lot to be said about religious rhetoric and warfare and ⁓ it's so true. but yes, this ⁓ has been going on for a very long time, but it does feel like for a lot of Americans right now they're it all kind of came together at a point. lately. I mean, it's just very evidently there's no denying that there's a relationship between the both states, both governments and Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes, so true. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ people should be concerned. That's a lot of our money that they're telling us we can't pay our teachers for, we can't protect our lands with, we can't health care pick a thing. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: A lot. Blows my mind that our budget, the US budget for 2026, has over a trillion dollars for military spending. And you might we might think, well, we have to do that to defend ourselves and to work for peace in the world and all that. But if you think about well, what nation is close to us in military spending, if you rank what nations ⁓ spend the most on military spending, the US is number one. China, Russia, Germany, India, and the UK are the next six. And you have to add all of what they spend on military to equal what the United States spends. Do we really need to spend that much on military spending? I think part of the question, and this is a question of faith for me. as well as just ⁓ my patriotism. Do we do I really believe, do we really believe in liberty and justice for all? Or do we just believe in liberty and justice for us? And who is the us? And that's a lot of what drives the conflict all all over the world. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You know, it's it's a very interesting yeah. That's it's a good question and we're even seeing it. I I read a article recently that was asking the same question about Peter Thiel, ⁓ who's behind Palantir if you're familiar with the tech world. But Palantir is the AI surveillance that has the contracts both at the border that you and I saw, the the cameras. They also have the contracts with the state of Israel. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I was reading about ⁓ and this was from a queer author because Peter Tierle is queer. He's a queer Catholic libertarian AI demigod in his head. Like he's if you watch his interviews, he's not on the same earth we are. Like he's in a different world. And it is very it's an interesting and the point they were making was that queer Catholic angle of like you know, you're there's you're just hanging so many of us out together. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: dry there's like there's so much ⁓ surveillance so much it it it's just really weird what happens when ⁓ power and status and and turning your back and ⁓ and again liberty for me but not for you and it's it's it's it's just odd so anyway I kind of derail this in that little bit but I I want to talk about you you mention our military presence. I don't know if you remember Professor Huckleberry, he's behind me sleeping. ⁓ but you you talk about our military presence being all over the world as a as a form of neocolonialism. ⁓ we also, you know, we talk about too Jesus as a protester, a nonviolent protester of empire. Rome had a huge empire with lots of strongholds. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: ⁓ so sweet. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Do you see patterns and similarities between Rome and the United States? I know that the United States, our f founding fathers, s wanted to be a new Rome. They wanted to be this, you know, republic that modeled. ⁓ but it it does seem that we've gotten very too big, like you said, with this bloated budget. ⁓ do you see any similarities between like how the United States has expanded and what we know about Rome? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: There's a there's a philosopher named Immanuel Kant, who's German, who wrote a book called Perpetual Peace. And he really believed that expansionist nations happened because of the egos of the kings. So he lived back kind of when the nation state was just kind of being created, when most areas were ruled by kings or, you know, whatever kind of emperors or something like that. And he really believed that as the world became more democratic, which he thought it would because he thought that was the best form of government for the future, that war would end and that there would be perpetual peace because people would not vote for their children to go off into war. Now, people have fought with each other about this since the founding of the United States. There were some of the founders who wanted to be kind of isolationist. Who didn't want to be expansionist. And but right now we see, we see so much. I grew up thinking that Russia, the Soviet Union, was this evil government that tried to take over other nations. And of course, we see them taking over Ukraine, but we have to look at how Israel is the nation of Israel, the modern nation of Israel, is expanding, taking over territory in Lebanon, even in Syria. And certainly Palest they've taken over more and more of Palestine. So ⁓ the the the United States is in the role of an expansionist nation right now. And I think I don't think that's consistent with what all of the founders wanted. I do think yet there were some who definitely understood it that way. And sad we have this terrible history not only with slavery, but we have this terrible history of expansionism and colonialism take ⁓ or ⁓ yeah the the colonization of Native American lands and we s we know that history. But I think we we tend not as Americans, most of us tend not to think of the United States in the same way we think of Russia. Taking over more and more territory. But for instance, Christians have protested some Christians, like for instance, Henry David Thoreau went to prison when the United States went to war and took over what's now Texas, the Mexican-American War. Thoreau protested that publicly, very verbally, and lots of people protested it. And Thoreau ended up going to jail because he refused to pay his taxes. That would be used for that expansionist war. And there's a beautiful scene where Ralph Waldo Emerson went to visit Thoreau in prison and looked at him in jail and said, What are you doing in there? And Thoreau said to Emerson, What are you doing out there? So the question of how our faith motivates us to resist some things our government does. is a really important history. And I do believe that theologians like Marcus Borg, like Rosemary Radford Ruther, and others who say sometimes we need as people of faith, we need to stand up and criticize our government. And that's a patriotic thing to do and a thing that our faith calls us to do. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Amen. And that's I mean, and that's exactly I mean, I w at least when I read the gospels, I do get ⁓ a sense of of a protest, of a sense of the disdain or disgust for the status quo. And and that is object that it's just hard to argue with in the and every time someone's like, you know, you mentioned earlier that Jesus died because God needed a sacrifice, I'm like It's a lot of storytelling for that. ⁓ Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah, right. And y it's really interesting to think about what kind of a God do you believe in if you believe that? ⁓ I don't believe that. I I very much believe that Jesus was a a brilliant rabbi teacher, ⁓ an incredible human God, human person, but that it was political and economic critique. That got him killed. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Or similarities you're making today is about how what is going on in Gaza, Palestine is akin to colonialism here in the States, Native American genocide. you know, for folks who have ever read any history on that and thought, what would I do? How would I react? This is now now you get to how are you reacting to Gaza and Palestine? This is it, this is that moment, because unfortunately these playbooks don't change. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ these strategies they get shared with one another. And you've seen it so much on your travels how this expansionism affects other countries, not only governance, but their people all the way down, eventually causing issues that create refugees that come into our country, and then we blame those refugees. And it's like a sick circular pattern. Can you talk about just briefly, can you can you talk about what you're seeing ⁓ in your experience either with Borderlinks or just even in your you said your missionary travels? Were they were ⁓ are we calling them humanitarian travels? I don't know what to call them anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I don't call it I don't call it mission. What when I was young, that was the terminology I would use. I think of it as social justice solidarity work now. And there's a really big difference. So I'm not interested in trying to convert anybody. ⁓ that's not part of my faith that God wants me to do that. But I think when people request aid, like I spent a lot of time in Nicaragua with groups who have requested aid. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay, yeah. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: And so there's that's a whole nother question about economic justice and trying to change policies. But I want to come back to what you were talking about about the militarization of the borders, because you and I saw, and we've got some great pictures of you at the highly militarized border between the United States and Mexico in the south part of Arizona, south of Tucson, and that huge wall that costs Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: ⁓ my gosh, how much money and the surveillance towers. And that has just gotten reinforced and further militarized with more and more surveillance now. And it's just shocking how much that's changed in the last 10 years, certainly in the last 20, last 50 years. So part of what I think is so important to see is that the walls. the defense that they call them security walls, the walls that separate Palestinian people from Israeli people. And by law, the Palestinians cannot leave those areas without it's not really like a green card, but it's it's a card. So they can some leave to go work in, you know, in lawn care, roofing, different kinds of work. Some even professional work, but they have to be back in Palestine behind the wall at night at a certain time. So the the walls look very similar. And in fact, they're made by some of the same security companies that are Israel Israeli companies. And the surveillance drones and surveillance towers and so forth, all across the United States border between the US and Mexico, very similar. militarization of the borders with checkpoints and so forth. And I think US citizens need to know more about this highly militarized border. And I think the United States is thinking 50, 60 years from now, there's going to be there's going to continue to be migration. And with climate crisis, there's going to be more and more migration of people. And so Again, there's a question of ⁓ who has the right to travel. US citizens seem to have the right to travel to Mexico, but it's a lot harder to cross when you're coming back the other way from Mexico into the United States. And I think that's just gonna increase. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I I agree. and it's interesting too with some of our politicians here in Montana. I know this is across the country, but ⁓ you know, we've got a number of very conservative politicians that when folks have done either drone or satellite imagery on their house, you see a lot of solar power, wind power. You got underground bunkers with renewable or you know, some sort of you know, natural renewable energy, and it's like, ⁓ so you you do support like all of these sorts of renewable energy investments for yourself. ⁓ and then you also ⁓ in the same vein like you are changing your investments or you're having to change things based on climate. So you're you're acknowledging this thing as real while denying it, you know, publicly. And it's just a fascinating it's a whole like you said, while denying Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Wow. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know, calling us crazy liberals and our climate change hoax or whatever. They're actively making decisions and investing money in things like surveillance or self sufficiency based on this very real data that all of us are talking about. They just don't want they want to keep profiting off of it until then. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Well, I've heard people say if you want to know what you really believe in, look at how you spend your money. ⁓ And ⁓ I think w ⁓ as as people ⁓ you know, ⁓ a as a pastor myself, I think sometimes people think of their faith maybe in a little box of something they do on Sunday or religious ideas and so forth. But Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I think Jesus taught, no, it's about what we do with our money, it's about how we relate to nature and the environment. It's about being kind to other people, and it's about that question, do we really believe in liberty and justice for all creation or just for us? Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's ⁓ there's a really good I don't have it down here. Maybe I do, but ⁓ Horsley is his last name, but he wrote ⁓ Jesus and the Empire back in like eighties or nineties. And I I need to ask Dr. Warren Carter if he's familiar with his work, but he talks about he takes a similar angle as Dr. Warren Carter does in Empire and Jesus, but like more of a political one. I mean Dr. Warren Carter, it's very much scripture text focused, but Horsley's whole thing was the d depoliticization of Jesus ⁓ really stemming as a result of Of the Enlightenment and like separating church and state, like these things that are good, like we think are are important, like also contributed to people seeing Jesus as separate. Like they were like, we can just like put Jesus in a box on Sunday and like because Jesus doesn't have anything to do with the state. Those are different. It's it's not like you and I know, but like when it's a it's just funny that even in our say our best self because I don't want to go consider the founding fathers our best self, but like even some of our like best well-intentioned ideas are going to have backlash. I'm I'm currently writing a chapter on the secular paradox and how having a secular society is going to cause is going to inherently cause a risk of pushing marginalized faiths out to the you know faiths out to the margins. Now they're going to coalesce and they're going to have uprisings and that we can almost like expect just politic like if you were to craft a nation and say, This is what I wanna do, that would be in the cons risk list. It's like every so often you're going to have to deal with these religious uprisings because that's what happens. And just been really playing with this idea of how the United States is a quote secular government, but it's not. It's like super friendly with the Protestant and now evangelical side of things. And It it's hard to explain it's just it's hard to explain to anyone else because this America United States of America is kinda like what you're saying. There's like a weird imperial cult with it, that that's happening and ⁓ without it being official. And it's just anyway, I kinda went down a rabbit hole about like almost like geopolitics, but you're talking about your political science background. I bet Dr. McCallie would understand what I'm saying right now. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Definitely, definitely. Yeah. I think there's it's it's a it's a mix. There are a lot of wonderful things in in the movement that became the founders that became the sort of the foundation of the United States. I love Hamilton, the musical. And I think again, I think they're truly Leigh/@followtheleighder: So Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: were a lot of very inspired idealistic people who really believed in liberty and justice for all, who were willing to die for it and stand up to the British monarchy in the founding of the United States. So the it's it's not like they're just bad things in the founding. But as you said, there are consequences sometimes and sometimes there are motives that are not good. Yeah, but but I also believe the freedom for religious exploration in the United States and even what what some people would call secular, I think there's a lot of spiritual expression and exploration that maybe people wouldn't use religious terminology, but I truly believe that when we when we really lose ourselves in wonderment, like when we're Nature, but that's what Jesus wanted us to do. I don't think Jesus so much cared whether we said, you know, this creed or that creed or this about virgin birth. I don't think Jesus cared about that, but I think he taught connecting with the power, the sacred power in nature, in intimate connection with other people, in music. prayer that there that there is a power greater than violence. But I think there are a lot of people who don't believe that. Who who really believe that violence is the greatest power that might make Leigh/@followtheleighder: Exac yes. And ⁓ and it just it just creates so much suffering and and you you brought up Nicaragua and I know we kinda went down a tangent, but going back that might makes right, but then it makes consequences and then it makes refugees. Can you give an example t to some of the folks ⁓ who like just if you could, could you share a little bit about the impact of the United States policy on Nicaragua and then how Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It causes damage to the people and then eventually Nicaraguan refugees that come to the United States and then get brought into the immigration discourse, which of course we all know is very hostile. So if you could kind of talk about that pipeline for those who may not understand how it's all connected. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Or it's this it's a it's a great question. Thanks for that. Central America, not just Nicaragua, but El Salvador, Guatemala. I mean, we can talk about South America too. There's so many ways in which the United States had ⁓ entrepreneurs who were building railroads, who were extracting minerals, gold, timber, who were mining. Different kinds of precious metals and things all across Central America. And so by the early 1900s, the US Marines were sent in to protect investors. This is again, this is very similar to colonists who went west and then got in conflict, and then the US had to send in cavalry to protect people who were. ⁓ settling in land they didn't own. So the same thing happened in Central America. And in Nicaragua, the US Marines pretty much controlled through different puppet dictators the whole country of Nicaragua. However, there was a a rebellion by this by different people, but there was a famous guy named Sandino who led a resistance against the United States. in Nicaragua in the early 1900s. And he was killed by the US in a a really brutal way. And his body was dragged through the historic towns and all this kind of stuff to show US might. Then in in the 60s and 70s there was a rebellion called the Sandinista Rebellion that was Sandina they were named claiming the history of Sandino. So it's all this history of people trying to resist US control. And they won their revolution in the 70s and try have tried to have a nation that is not just controlled by US companies and US military. The in it like in a lot of these places, it's very much like a plantation type society where just a Very small percent of people own the land and most people are peasants and work just barely have enough money to for enough food to eat day by day. I mean, we're talking extreme poverty. And there are different times when those people absolutely literally travel to the United States on foot because the government in their area is is repressing people and disappearing people. And so as people have stood up to the United States intervention, the US has funded the dictators that are trying to keep everything in the hands of a few wealthy people. And the wealthy people can lobby in in the United States and then the United States sends foreign aid to their armies. And so I've I've known many people and I've met many people. And I think you and I met some people when we were in Tucson who had walked from South America, Central America months of traveling because literally their family was dying because they didn't have enough food to eat. So migration happens for economic reasons, not be sometimes. you know, yes, there's that American dream, but people don't just up and move for no reason. ⁓ I think about, you know, the migration of Irish immigrants that's part of my ancestry during the the famine years in Ireland. People didn't want to leave their homeland. But oftentimes the star you know, a million people starved in Ireland within a couple of years during the famine. And the only way some people survived was to get on a boat and go somewhere else. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And I mean, we we think about ⁓ I had a a colonel, ⁓ special ops colonel who his focus he was on the podcast recently and his whole focus was Iran and ⁓ Hezbollah. And he was making a lot of the same arguments you made about how this all of our conflict with Iran is goes back into the nineteen fifties as well and it talks about how like we did a lot of ⁓ He goes into detail about how we made King Maker we we played King Maker over there and ⁓ so much of the the mess, the conflict really is United States founded in some way. Right. And and it's a really even ⁓ he was talking about the creation of the Taliban, like we armed them back in the seventies with the Soviet ⁓ deck during the Soviet conflict and just like again, There is I don't I it there is just that's what happens when you're so big. You are both the evil and the good. I mean, there it's it's really ⁓ hard to wrap it because I've done a lot of travel on on behalf of America, you know, in a good way. Like in a human I'm here to help. And I really wanna be in this this thing that ⁓ I don't wanna like like say cat like savior and some like white savior privilege like I I mean just in that heartfelt like I I just wanna be called to to do good and ⁓ that's what I thought America I think that's what a lot of people think America was. That that like yeah we're here we're we're defenders of democracy and freedom and that narrative is really hard ⁓ to maintain when you start looking into it. Very hard. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. And part of it is it's when we talk about what America does, we don't it it's important not to just lump in individuals who are getting super, super rich off the military industrial complex. And sometimes they're those individuals, business people, are lobbying the government and sometimes it's hard to sort out. What's government and what's lobbyists? But sadly, again, I do I believe in the idealism of America. But it's just like right now there's a lot of discussion in Israel about a far, you know, sort of far right, greater Israel, expansionist Israel, and there are people in Israel fighting over, well, that's not consistent with our values. Some people say it is same, probably everywhere in the world, but certainly in the United States. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wanna we just had someone ⁓ win the Democratic primary in Montana. He was a corporate firearm manufacturer, hunting gun type person, who left his corporate firearm job because the corporation kept funding candidates who were taking away the public lands that he was using his guns to go hunt on and he was like, Hold on, like Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I just wanted other guys to go hunt if they wanted to and to have the right like we are now talking about different things and that's what called him to run. He was like, I love public lands, I'm a conservation hunter person. And it was such an interesting conversation to see ⁓ just where thing where people draw their line ⁓ at at certain ways. He also ⁓ I've known some folks too that just just Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah no. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It it it like I said, all of this is people are catching up on a lot of history. They're seeing how consequences like we don't as citizens, we don't get to live purely and ethically when a system is structured the way it is. And ⁓ it's been really fascinating to see so many people start asking questions and and and trying to figure out and A big thing too that I know that you are very good about is as people are asking all these questions and digging for truth and trying to learn is it can be very dark. Can we talk about joy? Can we talk about sustainability for the long term? Because you you've been doing this for a while. How do how do you do it? And how how can we learn from you? How does we we're in it for the long haul. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: ⁓ I think that the ⁓ I love Alice Walker's writing. I think she's a great prophet of our times. Her book, Possessing the Secret of Joy, is one of my favorite books. And her part of what she says is that being in the struggle, resistance, is joyful. And when I think about what gives me the most joy and what I want to do in this complex, bruised, weary, messy world. being in being with people like you, with others who are working for the common good, working for a more compassionate and sustainable world, working for the environment and so forth. That's joyful. I I get great, great joy from that. I also I was talking earlier about connections with nature. And Jesus talked a lot about when he's talked about consider the lilies of the field. I think He he might have been saying, contemplate them. And I find that just being out and really contemplating and being one with birds and in whether it's hiking, whether it's swimming, whether it's whatever it is, be putting the screen down, spending time in nature, the stars, those are some of the ways that I get re recharged and refilled. Intimacy with other people. And I think this, I honestly think, though we you know, we have this Puritan Christian tradition, and I think even things like sexual intimacy and pleasure, but love, but also different kinds of intimacy, like being with a friend or another person and really having a soul connection for some moments. Those I think are ways that are batteries. Our spiritual batteries get recharged. And I think those are forms of prayer. I love the movement of groups singing. There's a lot of I have a friend in Seattle and she says there are a lot of times when people get together and sing, but it's not churchy songs. It's not even in church, it's just community getting together and singing songs together. I think music really can realign our brain synapses. So Those are some of the things that I find, which is not to say that I don't have times of deep dark despair. But those are some of the ways that I and studying history because people have endured and and protested and changed so many things in history, and that gives me a lot of inspiration. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And one of the the things you talked about was ⁓ you know being in nature, reconnecting, that as a form of gratitude. That's a very thorough inspired suggestion, by the way, speaking of. But it's so true. And what I I love about being out in nature is like it is the A, the interconnectedness of it, A, B the peace. And and like Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Especially looking at things that are old, like just whether it's mountains, forests, ⁓ beaches, like those things have seen so much time. And I think about that a lot. Like when I went to the Grand Canyon, that was one of my takeaways. I was like, This canyon has seen so many things come and go. Like and I recently came across some Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: fact about there are to this day certain sharks that are swimming in the North Arctic that are prehistoric that that that predate cave drawings. And I just think that is so powerful that there are animal that there's life on earth that has existed before we even attempted to describe what God was. And and that is Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes, yes. Trees trees, ancient trees. I and I do I experience a kind of mystery that I can't explain. And I think that that's where my my faith, my spirituality is nourished. That there are powers that are greater than what I can understand. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Alright. Stories too. I had the opportunity to go to encamp in the Black Hills of the Dakotas. ⁓ and for those who aren't familiar, I know that people don't think about the Dakotas that often, but I promise you there is a whole forest ecosystem at they're called the Black Hills because the forestry is so dense that it's dark. Like that is how thick the forests are. So it's not Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: And looking at the video. Leigh/@followtheleighder: black grass on hills. It's it's just so such dense coverage and you can feel I came back and I said I s I I the old gods have been there. I don't know how to describe it. And someone was Gods and I was like, I don't I don't but of course like a lot of my indigenous peers were like, No, she'd like you feel it. There's just some things that there's it's just cool. And ⁓ I encourage folks to to be open. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And ⁓ and to continue finding theologies that support that, like support ⁓ creation, life-giving, ⁓ liberation, love. ⁓ because we have man, in all of our fear and all of our upheaval, we're really reacting with a lot of I I was even watching a video today that was like, if you wear this. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You're MAGA, or if you do this, you're a left you wear the and I was like, I get it. I get appearance is a marker of safety for for folks, but also like we're starting to lose the plot, guys. Like, ⁓ like so I I'm just so thankful for you coming on today. I we didn't even there is we any one of these questions we could have made a whole podcast about. Right. So I I do hope that you'll come back. I would love to to sink deeper into Gaza and Palestine, but also even touching on on love, on romance, on relationship as a form of spirituality is a is a beautiful deep dive that I'd really like to cover with you. But until then, can you tell folks how they can learn more about you or learn more about your your causes? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I'm especially happy to share ⁓ about a book that I wrote called Spirituality Beyond Borders that is about Nicaragua and many of the things that I learned from people there and continue to learn from people there. I'm I'm doing some research right now on female images of the divine. That's something that I've studied a lot and worked with and in For instance, Rosemary Redford with her tradition. I was very blessed to study with her and to study way feminist theology and how the I really believe that more harmony with nature and openness to to different ways of thinking, both about Christianity but about other religions, can be opened up when we think about women's roles and queerness and ⁓ Different relationships between gender, pleasure, and spirituality. So I'm working on that. I do h want to highly recommend a website called Breaking the Silence that is previous people who were Israeli soldiers who are now telling their stories about the human rights violations against Palestinians. It's a website that's I think it's hosted in Germany, but Breaking the Silence. It's really worth looking at if you want to learn more about that. So highly recommend that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: There's just I I I love the books that you assigned us to and ⁓ funny enough, I'm I'm thinking about as you're talking about books and and causes. ⁓ I had a Catholic worker. Are are you familiar with the Catholic worker movement? I had a I had a Catholic worker Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Dorothy said. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Communist John Brown lover is how their bio online describes them. I have and I was like, come on a podcast. But ⁓ that'd be super fun to get both of you in the room too. And ⁓ folks, I briefly talked about how I got to go to Harper's Ferry last year and that was because of Dr. McCauley McAuley talking about John Brown and Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yes. Nice, nice. I love it. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Just seeing different different ways of advocacy advocacy, protest. Again, we have nonviolence and pacifism, and then we have someone like John Brown. And there's just a spectrum of ⁓ strategies and ⁓ talking ⁓ talking academically and respectfully about all of them. ⁓ I I think is really important for all of us as we try to figure out like, so what do I do and where do I fall? And ⁓ turns out there's a lot of space for folks in a revolution. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah, well. Get that down. That's a that's a important line there. There's a lot of space for people in revolution. love that line, Leigh. Leigh/@followtheleighder: T turns out when you get to the place of revolution. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: And and we need and revolution needs a lot of different angles, people working from different angles for change. Have you seen the new musical Sufs? ⁓ you've got to see it. It's about the suffrage suffragists. And it shows that the the the ability of people working from different angles to bring about change is beautiful. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, ⁓ my gosh. Someone was telling me that they were inspired. It was actually someone from Phillips ⁓ Ruth, but ⁓ was telling me how they're inspired by Rachel Held Evans as like the gateway to the pip they like, that's what I w a talking about like we need more Rachel Held Evans at the pipeline gateway. ⁓ sorry, just to like get more people in because of just Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Yeah. Yeah, yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I thought that was a really cool way to describe it too. Like even if you aren't comfortable being a voice of that side of it, like you're there's room on the the fringes of just like getting people over and I ⁓ just there's a lot of different ways. Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: I like that. And also people don't even claim necessarily to be doing something religious, like ⁓ I mentioned Alice Walker earlier, and I I really think her books are truly prophetic, though she doesn't name herself as a theologian necessarily, but I would name her as a theologian. Leigh/@followtheleighder: This has been absolutely fantastic. Again, folks, don't forget to check out Dr. McKelly's work. that is thank you for writing books like that again. That is Spirituality Beyond Borders, and that's going to be ⁓ focused a lot on Dr. McKelly's work done in Nickawagua. And ⁓ looking forward to to more conversations about that. Do you have any parting words before we wrap up? Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Only thank you. It inspires me that people like you are doing this work. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's it's truly healing. Like having these conversations and then realizing like, okay, yes, there's so many people. I'm not crazy. I'm not alone. Like, we're the it there's movement here. And ⁓ so thank you for for your work for for educating. I mean, you think about all the number of theologians and pastors and chaplains that you have empowered over the years, the gift. That's that's the cool thing about education is Dr. Kathleen S. McCallie, Ethic and Ministry: Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: the number of lives is exponential for what you've done. So that's, I mean, directly. I have a podcast of 250,000 followers directly because of the education you've given me. So thank you, really. and and folks, this has been another episode of Follow the Leighder. If you have any questions or, you know, ⁓ particularly if Dr. McCallie comes back a second time, drop those in the comments. So I'll be sure to ask those questions, comments, anything like that. Or maybe you have ⁓ something that you wanted us to to cover deeply. I'll make note of that. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. You all know the drill. This has been another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.