Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 371: The Sinister Sith

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Issue 371: The Sinister Sith · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: I'm going to recruit this.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the ned Palty.
0:08
Speaker 1: Hi.
0:08
Speaker 3: This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:12
Speaker 3: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
0:16
Speaker 3: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:23
Speaker 2: Well, hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars
0:27
Speaker 2: podcast that you just can't get enough of, and there's
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0:36
Speaker 2: I'm just one of your hosts here, Matthew Rushing, and
0:38
Speaker 2: with me as he is every single week, is the
0:42
Speaker 2: wonderfully beautiful bald Jedi Master John Mills.
0:46
Speaker 1: You know, I find this show to be indeed addictive,
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Speaker 2: and the nerd Party online at the nerd Party dot com,
1:23
Speaker 2: as well as Instagram at the nerd Party. But John,
1:27
Speaker 2: so we were discussing something the other day and kind
1:33
Speaker 2: of thinking over some things, and I think in some
1:36
Speaker 2: ways this sprung from some further conversations that we had
1:41
Speaker 2: just had behind the scenes just about Acolyte and of
1:45
Speaker 2: course now we all know that show is canceled, not
1:48
Speaker 2: coming back for season two, so rip and one of
1:52
Speaker 2: the things that we were discussing was was the idea
1:55
Speaker 2: that the show when it was announced and when we
1:58
Speaker 2: were told about it, was it was going to be
2:00
Speaker 2: a show basically from the perspective of the Sith. And
2:03
Speaker 2: of course we mentioned in our crossover episode with six
2:06
Speaker 2: oh two Club that that's one of the places where
2:08
Speaker 2: we felt like the show failed because it didn't actually
2:11
Speaker 2: do that, it didn't.
2:13
Speaker 1: Give us that.
2:14
Speaker 2: And so first I just wanted to ask you, especially
2:19
Speaker 2: in Star Wars, there does seem to be a whole
2:24
Speaker 2: segment of the fan base which is extremely obsessed with
2:30
Speaker 2: not only the bad guys. I mean, we have the
2:32
Speaker 2: five zero first, right, but the Sith in general, And
2:37
Speaker 2: so I think I just wanted to start this conversation
2:40
Speaker 2: and asking why do you think that people are just
2:44
Speaker 2: kind of so overly obsessed with the Sith.
2:50
Speaker 1: You know, it's actually interesting because I think it's something
2:55
Speaker 1: that Star Wars has fought against in a large sense
2:59
Speaker 1: because of the simple fact that the Emperor is such
3:03
Speaker 1: a great villain that you want that type of jazz
3:08
Speaker 1: with this, Like, if you really think about it, we
3:11
Speaker 1: get our first direct glimpse of the Emperor in Empire
3:14
Speaker 1: Strikes Back in nineteen eighty. Then Ian mcjarmid plays the
3:18
Speaker 1: role in Return of the Jedi and then through the prequels,
3:22
Speaker 1: and as a kid, I was fascinated and terrified by
3:26
Speaker 1: the Emperor in a way that I wasn't fascinated and
3:30
Speaker 1: terrified by Vader. I was still fascinated and terrified by Vader,
3:35
Speaker 1: but the Emperor was different. And sure, as much as
3:39
Speaker 1: anything else, that's sort of the image of the Sith
3:43
Speaker 1: that crystallizes in your brain from the get go, and
3:47
Speaker 1: I think it's it really is the thing that Star
3:52
Speaker 1: Wars has to always work around is to your point,
3:57
Speaker 1: it's not just the villains it's the sith that people
4:00
Speaker 1: are going to. And I think it's because the first
4:03
Speaker 1: sith we ever met. Like, if the first boxer you
4:06
Speaker 1: ever saw was Muhammad Ali, he'd be like, oh wow,
4:09
Speaker 1: or you know what, when I was younger, Mike Tyson's
4:12
Speaker 1: tearing things up, You're like, Oh, that's what boxing is.
4:15
Speaker 1: It's like, not really, that's a boxer. That's not every boxer. Yeah,
4:21
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's one of those things where
4:25
Speaker 1: as a result, that's why when you have villains that
4:28
Speaker 1: are going to stand in and be the main villain
4:30
Speaker 1: of a series or a movie or something like that,
4:33
Speaker 1: they've got to be at that level. In a sense.
4:38
Speaker 1: Maf Gideon is a great example of he's not a sith,
4:41
Speaker 1: but man, they took him up to that level. It's
4:43
Speaker 1: that overpowering thing. But I think it's I know I'm rambling,
4:48
Speaker 1: but I think that's why the sith attracts everybody is
4:50
Speaker 1: that first sith we ever encountered. I mean, do you
4:53
Speaker 1: think it's that or do you think it's the lure
4:55
Speaker 1: in specific? Do you think it's you know, is there
4:59
Speaker 1: something other than what's on screen that you think just
5:01
Speaker 1: hit locked people in?
5:04
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that there is something that attracts people
5:10
Speaker 2: to the Sith, and I think in some ways it's
5:16
Speaker 2: the basest part of our human nature, where we are
5:22
Speaker 2: obsessed with this idea of being able to kind of
5:25
Speaker 2: do whatever we want to do without any repercussions, and
5:30
Speaker 2: be able to give in to all of our passions
5:33
Speaker 2: and all of our desires again, uh with without any repercussions,
5:38
Speaker 2: without anybody telling us that we're doing anything wrong or
5:41
Speaker 2: get on us, and in that way rule our own galaxy,
5:47
Speaker 2: you know, our lives and how we want to live them.
5:50
Speaker 2: And so what I find so fascinating about that, And
5:56
Speaker 2: I think what makes this really interesting to me because
6:00
Speaker 2: I love that you started with Palpatine, because I think
6:03
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that Palpatine is so successful is
6:08
Speaker 2: because he rules his passions. He can. He is self
6:13
Speaker 2: controlled to the nth degree. Right, he is almost like
6:18
Speaker 2: he's he's a Sith, but he's like the Sith who
6:21
Speaker 2: have actually learned something right, which is that I can't
6:25
Speaker 2: just do whatever I want whenever I want it because
6:30
Speaker 2: I want it. If I want to try and actually
6:33
Speaker 2: control the entire galaxy, I'm going to have to play
6:37
Speaker 2: the game in front of everybody will everybody doesn't realize
6:40
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, I'm playing a completely different game, Like
6:43
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's not overt. You can't be overt
6:47
Speaker 2: in that. And I think that's something so interesting because
6:51
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the other especially sith that
6:56
Speaker 2: we see, and I think, you know, this is where
7:01
Speaker 2: you know, the acolyte kind of maybe goes wrong. Is
7:04
Speaker 2: this whole idea of like trying to just live your
7:06
Speaker 2: own existence, your own truth and like be whatever you
7:11
Speaker 2: want to be without any rules, you know, and everything,
7:13
Speaker 2: And that's what gets those type of Sith in trouble.
7:17
Speaker 2: And so whereas again Palpatine, who learned from his master
7:24
Speaker 2: Darth Plagis, was apparently a completely different type of way,
7:31
Speaker 2: which is again the rule of two. Right, you're not
7:33
Speaker 2: making a lot of waves because you're always behind the scenes.
7:36
Speaker 1: Now, I know, I like something you've hit on here
7:40
Speaker 1: with the word control when you're talking about Palpatine. But
7:43
Speaker 1: then you think about it also, is it sith ambition
7:46
Speaker 1: and control? Their ambition is the long game is to
7:54
Speaker 1: take everything over, to control everything, And that might be
8:00
Speaker 1: why we see people not react as well to the
8:07
Speaker 1: acolyte is because those ambitions aren't large enough for us,
8:12
Speaker 1: and you know, I'll go back to maf Gideon. Maf
8:13
Speaker 1: Gideon also he wants to bring the empire back and
8:16
Speaker 1: rule it like it's a big grand vision ambition thing.
8:20
Speaker 1: Plagis is trying to learn how to control life itself,
8:25
Speaker 1: as we understand the lure up to this point, and
8:28
Speaker 1: Palpatine is trying to take that to a larger scale
8:30
Speaker 1: of okay, and control all life, not just you know,
8:35
Speaker 1: he's looking at the macro, whereas Plagis was looking at
8:38
Speaker 1: the micro and that's probably why they would work as
8:40
Speaker 1: a good duo. And then tumbles into why Anakin's a
8:45
Speaker 1: bad sith Is because all of his ambitions are smaller
8:49
Speaker 1: than they should be.
8:50
Speaker 2: Great point. Yeah, yes, no, I think you're absolutely right,
8:54
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it also makes sense then
8:59
Speaker 2: why the Sith themselves would have lost to the Jedi
9:03
Speaker 2: millennia ago, and and they in some ways, you know,
9:08
Speaker 2: it feels as though they would have eaten their own Yeah,
9:13
Speaker 2: in that sense, you know, and I don't mean that cannibalistically,
9:16
Speaker 2: but I mean the fact that they would have. There
9:17
Speaker 2: would have been so much infighting between the Sith that
9:21
Speaker 2: it makes sense why their empire would crumble, uh for
9:25
Speaker 2: the rise of the Jedi order and the creation of
9:31
Speaker 2: peace and prosperity. But I so this is something that
9:36
Speaker 2: I was thinking about though in terms of this when
9:38
Speaker 2: when we were talking behind the scenes about this, and
9:41
Speaker 2: something that's been kind of like percolating in my brain.
9:45
Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder if the reason that the Sith aren't
9:49
Speaker 2: as interesting in the first place to me, and and
9:53
Speaker 2: this is what makes Palpatine interesting, but the rest of
9:56
Speaker 2: them just don't seem to really cut it in that
9:58
Speaker 2: same way, is because the idea of giving into our
10:03
Speaker 2: basis nature is easy. Anybody can do that, right, you know.
10:08
Speaker 2: Yoda even says that to Luke in the Empire strikes
10:11
Speaker 2: back easy, more seductive. It's the fast, quick road to
10:14
Speaker 2: quote unquote get what you want. But it's a harder
10:17
Speaker 2: road to take the hero's journey. It's a harder road
10:20
Speaker 2: to become the person who is willing to be selfless
10:24
Speaker 2: instead of selfish, because our natural proclivity is to be selfish.
10:28
Speaker 2: And so that's what always makes the hero's journey so
10:31
Speaker 2: much more interesting, I think in some ways is because
10:34
Speaker 2: it allows us to see that you can have hundreds
10:38
Speaker 2: and hundreds of different types of heroes journeys, and depending
10:41
Speaker 2: on the obstacles you could put in their way, how
10:44
Speaker 2: they overcome those is interesting. But maybe, and I'm just
10:49
Speaker 2: getting very philosophical in this, but it's like, maybe one
10:52
Speaker 2: of the reasons that the sith that we've seen that
10:55
Speaker 2: haven't been Palpatine are not quite as interesting is because
11:00
Speaker 2: they're just too close to us in the sense that
11:03
Speaker 2: it's just we as human beings, Like it's not that
11:07
Speaker 2: exciting to just watch ourselves on screen in that way
11:10
Speaker 2: because it's like, oh, anybody could kind of do that,
11:13
Speaker 2: Whereas what Palpatine does is like take his evil to
11:17
Speaker 2: the next level.
11:18
Speaker 1: Right, it's like a perversion of the hero's journey. Yes, exactly,
11:22
Speaker 1: he learns discipline, he learns to well put bide his time,
11:26
Speaker 1: to make sacrifices, to be patient to get what he wants.
11:31
Speaker 1: But then of course he's undone by the fact that
11:33
Speaker 1: he is impatient because he doesn't follow the rules after
11:36
Speaker 1: his own apparenthesize all of those sorts of things. But
11:39
Speaker 1: does that mean then that the best thing for Star Wars.
11:43
Speaker 1: And let me just detour right out of the philosophy
11:46
Speaker 1: into sort of like the looking at the larger story
11:48
Speaker 1: thing that that is possibly why we are instinctively rejecting
11:56
Speaker 1: some of the stuff we're getting, because it's impossible to
12:03
Speaker 1: recreate Palpatine, even when you literally recreate him in the
12:07
Speaker 1: Rise of Skywalker, it's impossible to recreate that thing. And
12:12
Speaker 1: that's why we consider that chapter. We're like, you know what,
12:15
Speaker 1: the Sith are done now, now we need to move
12:18
Speaker 1: on to mof Gideon, or we need to move on
12:22
Speaker 1: to whatever other villain is out there, or whatever other intrigue,
12:26
Speaker 1: because we've gone down this road and you'll never get
12:31
Speaker 1: somebody that does it justice again, and then even if
12:36
Speaker 1: you do, it just feels like you're imitating. And so basically,
12:41
Speaker 1: the Sith are the perfect antithesis to the Jedi and
12:45
Speaker 1: the perfect villains for those six films, but they're not
12:50
Speaker 1: perfect for anything else. Yeah, because we've done this and
12:54
Speaker 1: you can't recreate that, because we've seen the one theoretically
12:59
Speaker 1: perfect Sith and it still all fell apart for him.
13:03
Speaker 1: So the Sith are done and we should just move on, right.
13:07
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm getting two into the weeds in that, because
13:09
Speaker 1: of course that restricts you in other ways, but so
13:13
Speaker 1: I do like what.
13:14
Speaker 2: You're saying there, because I do think it has merit,
13:19
Speaker 2: But I would say that, okay, one a counter to that,
13:25
Speaker 2: in the sense of how villains themselves can be interesting.
13:29
Speaker 2: I think that maybe that's one of the reasons that
13:31
Speaker 2: fans gravitated so much towards Throng and continue to write,
13:36
Speaker 2: because he is a similar villain in the sense to
13:39
Speaker 2: Palpatine instead of his calculating nature, and yet his motivations,
13:44
Speaker 2: especially as we've had them expounded upon in Rebels and
13:48
Speaker 2: then the books that we've had by Timothy's on, you know,
13:53
Speaker 2: in his thron Ascendency trilogy, we've really fleshed out this
13:57
Speaker 2: character and made him completely more nuanced person, which I
14:00
Speaker 2: know some people haven't enjoyed, but I have particularly enjoyed.
14:04
Speaker 2: I thought was great. And the reason was is because
14:08
Speaker 2: we had created a villain to which I think very
14:11
Speaker 2: much felt like the perfect Star Wars villain and allowed
14:18
Speaker 2: me then to be able to have my heroes go
14:22
Speaker 2: up against this villain. And it also made him interesting
14:26
Speaker 2: because he had clear motivations. You know, his whole goal
14:30
Speaker 2: is to see the Empire flourish, because he's using it
14:34
Speaker 2: as a shield against whatever's coming for his own people,
14:39
Speaker 2: and so he's calculating in the sense of willing to
14:43
Speaker 2: sacrifice whatever he needs a sacrifice for the protection of
14:46
Speaker 2: his own people. And to me, that's incredibly interesting and
14:52
Speaker 2: it makes him a villain then worth paying attention to.
14:57
Speaker 2: And so I think that's one of the in which,
15:00
Speaker 2: you know, UH, when we're talking about like a you
15:04
Speaker 2: had like am Off get in which I felt like
15:06
Speaker 2: it is somewhat similar. But then he has his own
15:09
Speaker 2: interesting UH proclivities of trying to make himself for sensitive
15:13
Speaker 2: and all, which again quite interesting. I think UH does
15:17
Speaker 2: a lot there for the storyline. But these are the
15:21
Speaker 2: villains to which I feel like, UH are interesting, and
15:25
Speaker 2: it's because they're not just trying to in some ways
15:27
Speaker 2: recapture the old magic, but they're they're they're inserting a
15:35
Speaker 2: new sense of magic into the old magic, which makes
15:38
Speaker 2: it feel new and old all at the same time,
15:40
Speaker 2: which is exactly what all fans want.
15:42
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, And but the thing is, and I know
15:46
Speaker 1: this is a detour as well, but the sith are
15:49
Speaker 1: also about cheating the rules. Yes, they they are, you know,
15:53
Speaker 1: as much as I might say, oh, well, Palpatina exercise
15:55
Speaker 1: patients and everything. But then he has a core in patience.
15:58
Speaker 1: There's that that that switching there. And when you're talking
16:00
Speaker 1: about Gideon, what I find really interesting as we tease
16:03
Speaker 1: this out, is the Sith or about cheating their way
16:06
Speaker 1: to bigger power, which is exactly what Gideon does. And
16:10
Speaker 1: when you mentioned he's trying to clone forource sensitive beings
16:14
Speaker 1: and those sorts of things, but also find a way
16:17
Speaker 1: to benefit himself, Palpatine does the same thing. Palpatine is
16:22
Speaker 1: impatient to learn the same trick that he unwittingly robbed
16:29
Speaker 1: of himself, and so he's trying to use science to
16:33
Speaker 1: cheat his way up to the top right and to
16:36
Speaker 1: manipulate the force and control the It's all about that
16:39
Speaker 1: baseline control. Again. What's interesting is I think that's really
16:44
Speaker 1: where the villainy in Star Wars is interesting, because you,
16:49
Speaker 1: I mean, we also have Hemlock. Same thing. Yes, the
16:53
Speaker 1: Jedi are and heroes are about exerting control of self
16:58
Speaker 1: for the betterment of others, and then the Sith are
17:01
Speaker 1: the ultimate expression of what we would consider true, true evil,
17:05
Speaker 1: which is controlling others for the benefit of self. And
17:09
Speaker 1: so it's like that that's what you need, That's why
17:12
Speaker 1: the Sith works so well, that's why the Sith are
17:14
Speaker 1: perfect for a mythological story like this, where magic is
17:17
Speaker 1: real in this galaxy and so you have magic users
17:22
Speaker 1: and so you know, control of self for better of
17:25
Speaker 1: others or control of others for better of self. That's
17:28
Speaker 1: they're the exact mirror opposite of each other.
17:30
Speaker 2: Well, and this is why I do think and again,
17:34
Speaker 2: you know, I think one of the things that we've
17:36
Speaker 2: kind of been batting around as a possibility for the
17:40
Speaker 2: show is discussing the Plagus book, right.
17:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, by James Sea.
17:46
Speaker 2: In the in the Darth Baine books as well, and
17:50
Speaker 2: and so kind of seeing that those characters and and
17:54
Speaker 2: and what they could bring to this this type of discussion.
17:58
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, one of the reasons that
18:00
Speaker 2: Plagus was interesting, right, is that you know, there was
18:04
Speaker 2: so much about him that then played into the story
18:08
Speaker 2: of Palpatine. And he is that type of villain, right,
18:12
Speaker 2: But he also has his differences, right, He's he's pursuing
18:15
Speaker 2: kind of different things. We get the sense that he's
18:17
Speaker 2: slightly more enamored with delving deeply into the dark side
18:23
Speaker 2: and what you can do with the dark side that
18:26
Speaker 2: you know, the powers that some would consider to be unnatural,
18:31
Speaker 2: and that's kind of an interesting thing, like what can
18:35
Speaker 2: we do with this power if we mutilate it and
18:40
Speaker 2: we twist it in these terrible ways and it creates,
18:45
Speaker 2: you know, the problems that we of course then get
18:48
Speaker 2: and we allude to, you know, Anakin's birth, whether they
18:52
Speaker 2: caused it or it's a reaction by the force or whatever.
18:55
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know yet, really, and I don't
18:58
Speaker 2: know if we'll ever really truly answer that question.
19:00
Speaker 4: But well, hell will never know for sure whether Palpatine
19:07
Speaker 4: was even telling the truth, right, you know, that that
19:10
Speaker 4: sort of thing.
19:11
Speaker 1: Although I mean you mentioned Luceno's book and we toyed
19:15
Speaker 1: around with it. You know, maybe maybe we're putting the
19:19
Speaker 1: gauntlet down for ourselves here. It's been many years since
19:22
Speaker 1: I read it. I remember enjoying it when I did,
19:26
Speaker 1: and I think it would be you know, we've done
19:29
Speaker 1: the Jedi Apprentice series on here. Yeah, And I wonder
19:33
Speaker 1: if maybe what we're we're setting ourselves up for here
19:36
Speaker 1: is maybe we need to do a reread of Darth
19:40
Speaker 1: Plagus and then read I've never read the entire Darth
19:44
Speaker 1: Baine trilogy. So we're sitting here talking about the sith
19:48
Speaker 1: we're about to enter into spooky season? Are we queuing
19:52
Speaker 1: ourselves up for an aggressive negotiations book club moment here
19:56
Speaker 1: where we should all fire up our copies of Darth Plagis.
20:01
Speaker 2: I definitely think that that should be coming there then
20:03
Speaker 2: in October and John because again, like I think that
20:07
Speaker 2: that's there is something so interesting about to me again,
20:12
Speaker 2: that this fascination that we have with villains, right, But
20:18
Speaker 2: I think that for me, it does really come back
20:23
Speaker 2: to the reason that I've never gravitated as much toward
20:27
Speaker 2: the villains and just about any story really is because
20:32
Speaker 2: they represent the easiest part of my nature to become.
20:36
Speaker 2: You know, I could recognize their villainy and myself sadly
20:40
Speaker 2: too many times, right, not killing younglings. But you know,
20:43
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, like that that proclivity for selfishness,
20:46
Speaker 2: and it's the heroes who are able to overcome those things,
20:50
Speaker 2: to which I think then show me how to listen
20:53
Speaker 2: to the better angels of my nature. And that's the
20:58
Speaker 2: thing that I really appreciate about. You know, Star Wars
21:02
Speaker 2: is too. I think, you know, George's original six films
21:06
Speaker 2: plus the Clone Wars, the things we've seen in rebels
21:10
Speaker 2: as well very much. I think deal with this. But
21:12
Speaker 2: putting those things aside to which we could easily gain
21:16
Speaker 2: for ourselves for the betterment of everyone else plus ourselves
21:20
Speaker 2: at the same time is such an interesting thing. And yeah,
21:26
Speaker 2: I love this idea of then kind of like exploring,
21:31
Speaker 2: you know, these old EU books and what could they
21:34
Speaker 2: possibly then add to these villains that make them worth
21:39
Speaker 2: having books written about? Do the stories? I think that's
21:43
Speaker 2: the question I have coming into that idea of like,
21:46
Speaker 2: do they give me enough of a journey for these
21:49
Speaker 2: evil characters to truly hold my interest so that there
21:54
Speaker 2: is an arc for them that is interesting enough, you know.
21:57
Speaker 2: And again I think that's one of the things that
22:00
Speaker 2: you know, heroes then in the end, for the most part,
22:02
Speaker 2: tend to have the more interesting arcs, you know. I
22:07
Speaker 2: think it's actually and I was thinking about this, I
22:09
Speaker 2: think it's actually why to me in comics that villains
22:14
Speaker 2: are never as interesting as heroes, because you know, Joker
22:18
Speaker 2: is just doing what Joker does right. Batman, on the
22:21
Speaker 2: other hand, is actively working to not become the Joker.
22:27
Speaker 2: You know, Superman has all the power in the world,
22:30
Speaker 2: so it would be easy for him to turn into
22:33
Speaker 2: a maniacal maniac, and yet he doesn't, you know, And
22:37
Speaker 2: so the self control it takes to not do those
22:40
Speaker 2: things is much more powerful than just easily giving in.
22:45
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think Star Wars in the same
22:48
Speaker 2: way with its villains, allows us to be challenged. But
22:55
Speaker 2: the challenge is not their interesting this The challenge is
22:58
Speaker 2: the way in which they help the hero complete their journey.
23:03
Speaker 1: That is interesting. And I think the thing is it
23:06
Speaker 1: actually puts me in mind for another topic for another time,
23:11
Speaker 1: having to do with the hero's journey, because there's one
23:13
Speaker 1: aspect of the hero's journey that does involve going to
23:18
Speaker 1: the nether world and coming back with a boon. Anakin falls,
23:23
Speaker 1: he dies, he comes back, he's resurrected by love, and
23:27
Speaker 1: we have the whole thing of like, well maybe Luke
23:29
Speaker 1: really was and that sort of thing. But which is
23:34
Speaker 1: interesting to me because you say there that the villain
23:40
Speaker 1: the arc isn't necessarily as interesting a challenge that in
23:45
Speaker 1: the sense that there are heroes who, by not falling
23:50
Speaker 1: and coming back but by gaining the knowledge without failure,
23:54
Speaker 1: have equally interesting journeys. And we can table that one
23:57
Speaker 1: for now. But additionally, yeah, it's a good question. To
24:01
Speaker 1: add some more stuff to this part of it. We
24:04
Speaker 1: know that Lucas he admitted in interviews that somewhere in
24:10
Speaker 1: Palpatine's past there was an unrequited love. We don't know
24:16
Speaker 1: the nature of the love story, but there was somebody
24:19
Speaker 1: he was in love with. So do you think that,
24:22
Speaker 1: given that none of that comes across in the films,
24:26
Speaker 1: is that an aspect of the villain character that you
24:30
Speaker 1: of this particular villain character of the Sith, that you
24:33
Speaker 1: would want to see We've seen it with Anakin. Would
24:37
Speaker 1: you want to see additional backstory on somebody like Palpatine
24:42
Speaker 1: to add that failed heroic journey like he's the hero
24:46
Speaker 1: that felon, never came back sort of thing. Or do
24:48
Speaker 1: you think that he is just perfect the way he is?
24:50
Speaker 1: And what we were talking about before the Sith are done,
24:54
Speaker 1: Let's move on outside of you know, the occasional book
24:58
Speaker 1: or comic series or something like or you know, exploration
25:01
Speaker 1: of a known time period framed within what we.
25:04
Speaker 2: All know see And that's where I would say, OK, first,
25:08
Speaker 2: I think with the Palpatine thing of having an unrequited love,
25:12
Speaker 2: like the idea that unlike Anakin, he could not woo
25:17
Speaker 2: the girl and get the girl, and that maybe you
25:22
Speaker 2: know he's responsible for her death, you know, because he
25:25
Speaker 2: you know, in some way or something, and that's what
25:28
Speaker 2: snaps him in turn, you know, finally makes the complete
25:31
Speaker 2: turn that could be all good and interesting. I think
25:34
Speaker 2: that's great, you know, I actually think that this is
25:36
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why Darth Maul turns into that
25:40
Speaker 2: more sympathetic character. And his arc is incredibly interesting because
25:45
Speaker 2: you have the character who in some ways was like Anakin,
25:49
Speaker 2: who is taken away, created as this weapon to be
25:57
Speaker 2: pointed at things, and that it has him just searching
26:07
Speaker 2: for acceptance. It has him searching for his master to
26:13
Speaker 2: care about him, right, and so it's this terrible father
26:17
Speaker 2: figure storyline that he never gets and then it comes
26:21
Speaker 2: about like proving to his father figure that he's worthy
26:25
Speaker 2: of being cared about always, which is a very interesting
26:30
Speaker 2: storyline again because what does it play into. Its playing
26:34
Speaker 2: into the father storylines that Star Wars is rife with,
26:38
Speaker 2: right in the ways in which bad father figures can
26:42
Speaker 2: destroy a person and good father figures can redeem a
26:46
Speaker 2: person or make a person be the best version of themselves.
26:49
Speaker 2: And so you know that's a place where I think
26:53
Speaker 2: we have a Sith like character and they become more interesting.
26:57
Speaker 2: And then you have the the mirror version of that
27:02
Speaker 2: with Assage ventriss right, who finds her way out of
27:06
Speaker 2: that where mal never can. So again, the beauty of
27:10
Speaker 2: this is that we've seen this can actually be done well.
27:15
Speaker 1: Right.
27:15
Speaker 2: The Sith don't have to be characters we don't use anymore,
27:20
Speaker 2: but they have to be done in a way that
27:23
Speaker 2: feels compelling but gives them a journey to which makes
27:28
Speaker 2: it actually rewarding to watch and to be invested in,
27:33
Speaker 2: because you're either invested in. Oh, wouldn't it be interesting
27:37
Speaker 2: if Darth Maul could find his way around? But he
27:40
Speaker 2: never can. He's like Cissphists, who's pushing that boulder up
27:44
Speaker 2: the hill and it just keeps rolling down on him. Right,
27:47
Speaker 2: you know, Assage is the character who just decides, you
27:50
Speaker 2: know what, screw this boulder.
27:52
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the pushing anymore.
27:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I don't have to push this boulder.
27:56
Speaker 1: Wish to get back to the father thing you're talking
27:57
Speaker 1: about is triggered by the fact that she's betrayed by
28:00
Speaker 1: her father figure exactly, her dad.
28:03
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, which you know, Paul is too, but he
28:06
Speaker 2: still can't get over the fact that he wants to
28:09
Speaker 2: earn that respect. So whereas as Sage is able to say,
28:13
Speaker 2: I don't care about your I don't need it.
28:15
Speaker 1: So if you, if you think about it, Palpatine is
28:17
Speaker 1: the only successful Sith we ever encounter. Yes, he's the
28:23
Speaker 1: only one whoever managed to kill his master and ascend exactly.
28:28
Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating in and of itself at least?
28:31
Speaker 2: I mean again, I guess we'll read the plays book,
28:35
Speaker 2: the Darth Bain books at some point as well here
28:38
Speaker 2: and the coming months, and so yeah, maybe there's a
28:41
Speaker 2: way in which those characters are able to do some
28:45
Speaker 2: of those type of things. But I think you're right,
28:47
Speaker 2: the Sith themselves are a exercise and futility. Really yeah,
28:53
Speaker 2: And I think and I think this is the interesting
28:56
Speaker 2: thing too. That's kind of Lucas's point, right, lucas whole
29:02
Speaker 2: point for creating Star Wars from the beginning, He's said
29:05
Speaker 2: it in some of those original interviews, is to say
29:08
Speaker 2: that life generally goes better when you live it for others,
29:12
Speaker 2: when you know there's a good, there's a bad, and
29:15
Speaker 2: when you choose the good instead the bad life just
29:18
Speaker 2: generally goes better. You know, he's basically creating modern proverbs
29:24
Speaker 2: for kids to watch.
29:26
Speaker 3: Uh.
29:26
Speaker 2: And that's what makes this so interesting, right, And that's
29:30
Speaker 2: why again that the Sith characters they fit somewhere in
29:36
Speaker 2: that So they have to be interesting enough of a
29:39
Speaker 2: proverb to want to watch and not just be kind
29:44
Speaker 2: of our sick wish fulfillment is human beings of like, oh,
29:50
Speaker 2: I could just do whatever I want and get away
29:52
Speaker 2: with it. And that's not the point of the Sith
29:55
Speaker 2: in the storyline. And maybe that's where the ones that
29:58
Speaker 2: have been successful on screen have been so successful because
30:02
Speaker 2: they realize and they you know, George of course new
30:05
Speaker 2: from the beginning, that's not the point of this type
30:08
Speaker 2: of character.
30:08
Speaker 1: Wow, this is This has been a really rich discussion
30:11
Speaker 1: and I think one that will only get richer once
30:14
Speaker 1: we read that Darth reread. I should say that Darth
30:16
Speaker 1: Plagas book by Luceno. So here, anybody listening, consider this
30:21
Speaker 1: your call to action. If you want to join us
30:25
Speaker 1: on this journey. We will be reading Darth Plagus by
30:31
Speaker 1: James Luceno. It's a Star Wars legends book. You should
30:34
Speaker 1: be able to find a copy still in paperback, on
30:37
Speaker 1: ebook or used bookstore, wherever you're going to find it.
30:41
Speaker 1: Plan on October of twenty twenty four is when we're
30:44
Speaker 1: going to be talking about this. Yes, But in the meantime,
30:46
Speaker 1: if people want to talk to you about the Sith
30:48
Speaker 1: outside of the show, Matt, where can they find you
30:51
Speaker 1: out and about in the wilds of the internet.
30:53
Speaker 2: Well, you can find me all over the place on
30:56
Speaker 2: social media under the name Matt Rushing zero two. You
30:59
Speaker 2: can also find me here on the network with a
31:01
Speaker 2: completed show called owl Post with Drea Kaufman, as we
31:04
Speaker 2: talked about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series,
31:06
Speaker 2: one chapter a time. You can also find me over
31:09
Speaker 2: on the TFM network with a bunch of shows ones
31:11
Speaker 2: the six of two Club, talking about all the franchises
31:14
Speaker 2: we love, as well as a lot of Star Trek talk.
31:16
Speaker 2: So check me out there. But John, if people wanted
31:19
Speaker 2: to see your best you know, Sith Impressions and Sith wardrobes,
31:25
Speaker 2: where can people find you?
31:26
Speaker 1: Oh, you can find me modeling the latest fashions. I
31:29
Speaker 1: prefer the Crimson robes this year, to be honest.
31:32
Speaker 2: It's just as good as long as it's not the
31:33
Speaker 2: Darth talon. Look then we're good.
31:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, well hey, well okay, yeah, I'm not that young anymore.
31:38
Speaker 1: Can't pull that one off. But you can find me
31:41
Speaker 1: as Cassel Junkie out there k S s E l
31:43
Speaker 1: j U N k I E. And you can find
31:44
Speaker 1: me right here on the nerd Party Network, co hosting
31:47
Speaker 1: a show with Tristan Radell and Darren Moser called house Lights,
31:50
Speaker 1: where we look at the work of directors of all kinds,
31:54
Speaker 1: all genres, all specialities as it were. But speaking of specialities,
31:59
Speaker 1: I have my special e walk Fritters on the friar
32:01
Speaker 1: back at home, Master Rushing. So maybe it's time for
32:05
Speaker 1: us to go back and close these negotiations.
32:07
Speaker 2: John, Wait, oh, could you? Could you pass the Java
32:11
Speaker 2: Sauce negotiations closed? Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party