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Ghostwriting Q&A (with Nick Pavlidis) · The Daily Writer

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Smart Business Writing Podcast, the show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Kent Sanders, and I'm an author, ghostwriter, and college professor.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you're here.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a great episode in store for you today.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you're listening to this podcast, there's a pretty good chance that you're a writer.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: After all, this is the Smart Business Writing Podcast, and I'm sure that you've spent most of your time thinking about the writing that you can do for yourself.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Things like books, articles, social media posts, speeches, blog posts, podcast content, and lots of other types of material that can build your audience and grow your business.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: But have you ever considered writing for other people?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: More specifically, have you ever thought about ghostwriting?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, ghostwriting is one of those terms that's tossed around a lot in culture, but yet it's kind of mysterious, and a lot of people wonder what ghostwriting is all about.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fortunately, we have an amazing expert on this episode to tell us all about the mysterious, yet potentially high-paying world of ghostwriting.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Nick Pavlitas, and he's built a very successful ghostwriting business over the last few years.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Nick used to be an attorney, but he decided to transition into being a ghostwriter because of all the amazing benefits it brought for his family.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let Nick talk more about that in the conversation.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, speaking of the conversation that we're going to have, this episode's going to be a little bit different.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've titled it Ghostwriting Q ⁇ A because Nick suggested that we do this episode as a coaching session, and I loved that idea.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been building my ghostwriting business the last, oh, six or seven months or so, and I've had several things that I've wanted to ask Nick about for a little while, so we just turned those questions into this interview.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, what we're doing on this episode is a real-world case study of some of the issues and questions that I have as I've been building my ghostwriting business over the last half year or so.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And fortunately, Nick is here to offer his excellent wisdom as he always does.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here's some of the questions that we cover on this episode.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And again, most of these are real-world things that I'm dealing with in my business right now, things that I'm thinking through and dealing with and things that I'm trying to find the answers to.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So here's a few questions.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I ask him about whether I dealt with a particular client situation the right way.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about should you ever write for free?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about how much you should charge for a blog post.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I ask Nick, what kind of dollar amount should I put on my time?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I also ask him some things like, should I offer a free content audit for prospective ghostwriting clients?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I ask him about how do I actually find more clients, and am I using this podcast the right way to connect with potential prospective clients?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, we talk about can I write my own books yet also ghostwrite books for other clients at the same time?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: This was actually one of the main questions that I wanted to ask Nick about.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I I thought his answer was so full of wisdom and so refreshing, I just loved it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna let you listen to the episode too, hear what he has to say about that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, those are some of the juicy questions and topics that we dive into on this episode.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: However, before we get into the interview, let me say a couple of quick things.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, be sure to sign up for a free live training that Nick is offering on Thursday, April 16th.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's called How to Become a Highly Sought After Ghostwriter and Design the Life of Your Dreams.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you can register for that free training by going to ghostwriterschool.com slash free training.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: That URL is ghostwriterschool.com slash free training.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I promised you that it's going to be worth your time if you have any interest in ghostwriting.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Second, I want to emphasize that Nick's training really does work.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I went through his full ghostwriter school course last fall as a beta tester, and I kid you not, and this is no exaggeration, I took over 22,000 words worth of notes from that course.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's basically a full book's worth of notes.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: The course was that good and it was so detailed and so helpful, so I'm definitely recommending Nick to you.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, furthermore, I can tell you that literally just this morning, so as I'm recording this episode on Thursday, April 9th, literally just this morning, I got the green light from a client to ghostwrite my very first book for them.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that very first success of mine is due in large part to Nick's training, encouragement, and resources.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So all that is to say that I can tell you firsthand, Nick is really, really good with this stuff.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: He knows what he's talking about, and if you do what he says and you put his systems and ideas into practice, they really do actually work.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, by the way, one more quick thing.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I interviewed Nick a couple of years ago on this podcast on the also on the topic of ghostwriting.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And on that episode, he talks more about his background and how he actually got into ghostwriting.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to check out that conversation from 2018, you can find the link to the episode in the show notes for this episode, which by the way, the show notes for this episode can be found at KentSanders.net slash 167.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right, that's enough from me, ladies and gentlemen.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to the conversation with my friend and the awesome ghostwriter, Mr.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nick Pavlitas.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Nick, welcome back to the podcast.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So thrilled to have you back.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for making time to do this.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Kent.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before we jump into any questions, I have to first say thank you for having a uh a really substantial impact on my life the past couple of years, particularly in the last year, since I've taken your ghostwriting school course and learned so much from that, and just have really been able to look to you for all kinds of questions, uh, probably too many questions, because I ask a lot of questions and all kinds of good stuff.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for the positive impact you've had on my life personally as well as so many others.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my pleasure.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's it really is an honor to share what has impacted my life in such a way that others can get to work and hopefully improve theirs, find out if ghostwriting's a fit or just itch a creative or scratch a creative itch.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an honor.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been one of the shining examples of someone who learns, implements, and keeps going.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really the secret formula.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're gonna talk about some of that today, and you suggested an interesting format for this conversation, which I loved, which is mostly doing a kind of like a live coaching session for me because I'm very much in the process of building a ghostwriting business and have like anybody trying to build anything, have run into some roadblocks and frustrations and questions and and um all the normal things that happen when someone's building something.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get into that, you suggested a couple of topics that I do want to dive into a bit for people who have questions about the beginning process of ghostwriting.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, one question that I know people have thrown out there in the Ghostwriter Growth group, which we'll talk more about later on, because I I want to make sure and point people to that because it's a really great group.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: One question that came up recently was someone asked about should you write for free?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a question a lot of people have as they're starting out.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do I work for free to build up my resume or to get some experience?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: What is your response to that?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Should we actually do writing for free to build up some skills or should we not write for free?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, I err on the side of saying no, especially when you're first starting out.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're going to write for free, we could I try to get into the mindset of why someone would ask you to write for free.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of people want you to write for your exposure, which to me, it's not a great reason.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Unless there's some sort of a uh an actual discussion about paid work afterwards.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I generally don't consider it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't write for free when I was first starting out.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I have a busy ghostwriting business, I actually write a little bit more.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I write a little bit for free, but it's not it, I'm just not getting paid for the writing.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have now been able to identify the types of people who I will propose a partnership with on a business where content is the first part and say, I'll write the content and we'll build this business together.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've done that a few years down the road and end up making more because I'm writing for free, but it's from learning a lot in the process and who are who is the right type of person, not just because they have a brand, but they have a brand, they have execution, they have products, they have services, and the book will just take it to a whole other level.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: But with respect to when you're just starting out, especially, generally speaking, someone, there are one of a few reasons why people might want you to write for free.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, number one is it actually comes from a decent place where they want to see if it's a good fit.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to pay for something they won't use.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if you write something and they don't like it, they they're not gonna use it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that I understand, but I still have different conversations because they're not thinking about the value, time, effort, all that stuff that goes into producing a piece of content.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: People say, oh, just write a 500-word blog post.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you write a good 500-word blog post, it doesn't, you don't write it in 10 minutes.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: You it takes edits, it takes strategy, it takes a lot of value.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so they just don't know.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: They just see that 500-word project.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, or 500-word blog post.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I tend to reframe the conversation with them uh and say, and say, I'm not in the position to write for free now, but what I can do is I can do a test group of four projects for you where I'll four blog posts where I'll write four and I'll do it just for the value of my time, not the value of the writing and the skill and the SEO.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and I start saying things like that, like SEO, because I know that my clients who want blog posts, they want it so that way Google will start noticing their website.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when I start speaking a language with people that lets them know that I understand their goals and can help them reach that through content, we quickly transition that conversation from writing for free to, okay, I'll do a test project.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Typically I charge whatever,$300 a blog post, but I'll do three blog posts for you for$100 just to cover my cost of time as an investment in our relationship.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And why that's important, even if you're just getting paid something, the first thing that's important about that is you put your price out there so that way they know they're not going to get three blog posts for$100 ongoing.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, second, it um it gets them used to paying you.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it even if they pay you$20 just for test block a test blog post, it gets them used to paying you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the next transaction, they don't have to overcome paying you and the amount.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: They just have to pay you the other, the the larger amount.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think that you can write for little money to get in a door if the door is worthwhile, but put some bar some boundaries on that conversation if it's the type of person who just doesn't really get it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And from the writer's side, there's an immediate frustration and annoyance many times.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: You just want to push back and and say, I don't write for free for the same reason you don't do your job for free.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Totally understandable.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I I like to get into my client's mindset first.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if they just don't understand everything that goes into it, then have that conversation with them, put a bookend on it and saying, I typically charge this, but I'm happy to prove myself and just charge you for the value of my time, whereas I typically charge for my time and the other pieces of value that go into it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that way it's hard to object to someone charging for their time.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it sort of puts a puts a little bit of pressure on them, uh, or puts some of the pressure back on them to say, you don't value my time at all, if they say no.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if they do say no, then typically I say that was a bullet that was dodged.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't want to pay you, yeah, if they don't want to pay you because they have no um they have no way of monetizing content, then that is a good indication that it's not a great client relationship to have.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: So my best client relationships are the ones who know that by having consistent content or having a new book out there, they're going to earn more speaking engagements, coaching clients, mastermind members, or something that they monetize because they have a book.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if they don't want to pay you or they say, well, why don't you write the book and then we'll share in the royalties, it might be that they don't understand that people don't make money from books typically, from the royalties.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: They make money because of the books.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I am the author of this business book and I have a mastermind group, or I am the author of this business book and I speak 20 times a year.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what I do then, if someone doesn't have that, is I say, I'm not in a position in my, especially when I was starting out, I said, I'm not in a position uh to write on spec because I explained to them that even if there were to be royalties down the road, but if it were self-published, we're talking at least six to eight months, maybe a year before you get a royalty.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd be doing work now for the chance of getting paid later.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a lot of work that goes into it.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then if it's traditionally published, you could be talking about two to three years before they earn any royalty, because it takes about six months to write the book, let's say, especially if you're working with multiple clients.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it takes another year to get it in bookstores, and then the bookstores don't pay royalties for a few months, and then they have a reserve against returns, and then the publishing house holds on to it for six months to a year when they receive it from the bookstore before they pay it to the author, and then they take their share.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you might get a check for$200 three years from now.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm writing the entire book now, so I don't uh write now for the potential royalties.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there's only one thing authors can control, and that's what they do with the book.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: They can't control what their clients do with the book.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the author, the writer, the author should be the one who assumes the risk that they don't sell their book.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if they say, well, what if the words aren't good?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the truth is the words are about the seventh most important part of any book.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's what's done with the book that determines the money at the end.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you can have a great book if no one's marketing it, no one has products built behind it, no one's speaking because of it, they're not gonna make money from it.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what I do to position myself with clients is say, uh, we're gonna help you write the book, but that's gonna be the thing that you make the least amount of money on.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: All the other ways that we're gonna talk about how to use your book to make a lot of money, that's where the real value is.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll coach you and I'll push you.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I know most writers don't do that, and and that's okay, but I will help you turn this book into a profit center, into a success.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I get paid for my value and time up front, and you get it all.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And really, it's the big stuff that you make, you'll make way more money at the end if you do what we suggest doing.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the third type of person is just an arrogant jerk, and I just tell them I don't write for free because they don't work for free.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, lots of directions to go with this.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, for everybody listening, um, by the way, the if you're at all interested in building a writing business, this is the kind of stuff that's in the ghostwriting school course.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I I don't know how many notes I took from that course.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was like a full length of books worth of notes.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So for everybody listening, as you can tell, Nick is like this huge fount of wisdom and experience with all this.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're driving while you're listening to this, you're probably gonna need to listen to this again while you're taking notes because you're gonna be writing furiously because there's so much good stuff here.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me ask you a couple things related to how to value things.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is an area that's been a struggle of mine, is knowing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, in fact, this happened just last week.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: A prospective client was asking me to give them some numbers related to services that I have.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like one would be podcast show notes, which I've done for bunches of clients, but others would be uh what do I charge for repurposing content or writing blog posts or whatever.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And up till this point, my answers have some have not always been the same because it just depends on what what the thing is.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's it's hard to give a standard answer because there's so many variables to something.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, though, for someone who is at the beginning stages of a ghostwriting business or even a freelance writing business, you have proven ability in writing blog posts and writing content, you have a you have a very solid skill set.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see as a baseline for what we should be charging per hour?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you talk about charging for a time.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is there kind of a baseline that you think is okay, this is a bait, this is the low end of at least what you should be charging per hour.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: $30,$50,$75 an hour, is it something like that?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I typically advise against charging per hour the client.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mind you doing a calculation in your head per hour.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I typically advise you to determine what you would want to work for per hour, and that might be$25 or$35 per hour.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I like to push it up much higher than that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um the hour is a really hard measure because you might write faster or slower, and you might write, you might do more planning or more research on one thing or another.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I typically set a rate that gets me, if I am writing for about 20% of my time, that gets me the weekly amount that I want to earn.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to earn a thousand dollars a month and you're gonna work 10 hours a week, eight of it, some some form of eight of it's going to be um doing your paperwork, doing some research, talking to clients, and only 20% of it, two of it a week is going to be um writing.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Then for writing, I would charge enough to make$250 a week.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I would charge$125 per hour that it would take me to write that post.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm gonna write a blog post, so I try to back into it that way based on how much money I want to be earning, because typically you're only writing for 20% of the time, especially when you're first starting out.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there isn't a magic number for how much you should charge per hour, but I wouldn't charge less than$25 per hour if you are the freelance ghostwriter.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to push it up to over$50 an hour for a calculation if you're gonna be including all of the activities that you're doing.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that way you could get down to, so I'm gonna be dedicating 10 hours a week.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make$250 a week as an entry level, it's$25 an hour.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because there is some education and some learning curve that you're getting value in return.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: But when working with clients, I don't like to price per hour because it it puts a strain and it puts a barrier between me and my client.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: If they look at just like that 500-word blog post, they see the blog post and they think it must have taken 15 minutes to write because it's a short blog post.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: But to get a great blog post for 500 words, it might take a half hour, it might take an hour and a half.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you send them a bill for an hour and a half, they might think that you're you're padding your time.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to just estimate in my head there are some clients who I charge lower on, but I know their content so well that I have one client, I write weekly blog posts.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been writing with her since 2017, and I have spoken with her maybe 10 times.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: She's really big on social media.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, and I even joke with her when I do speak with her, that I just stock her online and then write blog posts based on her uh Facebook Lives or YouTube videos or whatever.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And she'll do a five-minute YouTube video and I'll get two blog posts out of it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it takes me two hours to get a month's worth of blog posts basically for her site, maybe three hours to get a month's worth of blog posts for her site.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So my hourly rate, even though I haven't raised my rates with her, because she's a super loyal um uh referral source too, I haven't raised my rates with her in, I think I did once and she was totally happy with it.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um the amount I make per hour on her content is higher than some of my even higher fee clients because just how long it takes.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it tends to even out.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I try not to worry about it too much on a per project or one-on-one or per client basis, just more of an overall basis.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: That that makes a lot of sense.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually do have a client who uh I've I've been it's a podcast showing's client, and I've given her the same rate for the last several years, and I feel like it's kind of time to bump up my rate because over the last few months, she's asked me to do like with every round of notes, it's here's a little like one tiny extra thing I'd like you to do.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'm adding more value to her than I was a few years ago.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: When you're when you're in a good client relationship, and she's an amazing client, I love her to death, she's wonderful to work with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: How what's the best way to go about bumping up your rates with a client?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you feel like you're bringing more value to them, do you are you just kind of straight with them and say, hey, I think I'm bringing more value, I'd like to raise my rates, blah, blah, blah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the best way to do that?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, partly.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I try to do one of two things.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: There are some people, like this woman has referred me like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of referrals.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So with her, I don't really care about that rate there.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have raised my rates with other people.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So what I what I do is try to do it on a regular basis and have the conversation up front.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you say something to the effect of uh I charge uh whatever, a thousand dollars a month to write weekly blog posts for you.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's my current rate.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I give notice of my rates every year.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: The the more value that I add, um, the and the fewer people I work with, my rates go up so I can serve everyone better.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it helps.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it helps everybody.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I get to uh lean in and go deeper with each client, and the clients get even better content because I'm constantly learning, learning SEO, learning from each project, and helping serve you better.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if they're used to that conversation, they're just anticipating it the following year.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I don't necessarily bump it up too too much, but I will bump it up.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's better to bump it up on a regular basis a little bit than go three or four years and say, I really need to double my prices with them.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: That totally makes sense.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I could totally see that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, speaking of blog posts, something that I have wrestled with is figuring out what to charge for a blog post.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think the last client who asked about this, I quoted something like$125 a blog post for like 500 to 700 words, something like that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, based on maybe podcast interviews or other content that they have out there.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Does that seem like a fairly standard doable rate?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is that too low, too high?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Taking into account it's a variety of things.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it might be a little low, but um but it depends on the types of well, when you're first building that real those relationships, um if you're gonna be charging low, and I mean$100, somewhere around$100, if you're gonna be charging low, I would put a uh a bookend on it, just like those other conversations where you say, you know, I typically charge$200 a blog post.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for every new client, I do two months at$100 a blog post, just so we can get used to each other, because it's gonna be it's gonna take a little more work on your end so we can find my voice.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then once I'm really uh dialed in with your voice, your content, how to build it for you, I take on more of the load, and then that's where we go up to the normal rate.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: How does that sound to you?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they typically say, that sounds great.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that way you're giving yourself a raise from the start.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you're and you're giving a reason for it because at the beginning of the relationship, it might take a little bit more on your end.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I account for that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a learning curve on my end.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I invest my efforts in that by lowering my rate um per blog post.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then once we get up to speed, then we go up to there.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And our goal with this content is to really target these keywords and get you to stand out and give you something you can share on social media and even when you're networking with traditional uh business settings or in traditional business settings.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, for one way to present the value, no matter how much you're charging for blog posts or books or whatever, is to plant seeds in your clients' minds about how to use their client to make their life easier and or their business better.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, my goal for you is to have ready-made pieces of follow-up.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So when you are out at dinner and you see someone, you meet someone who's a good lead, you can say, you know, I think I have a blog post on that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can send it to you.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Let me email it to you.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's so much easier follow-up than to try to think of something uh unique or catchy or witty to say to them and follow up with an email.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So my goal is to make your SEO better so that way we get more traffic to your website, more relevant traffic to your website, get people sticking around more, and uh and give you easier ways to build relationships with your future clients and referral partners.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you have conversations about value to them, then generally speaking, the price becomes um, the price becomes less of a concern.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I had one client who wanted to hire me for a book or or was calling uh it was a referral, and he wanted to talk to me about writing a book.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we had this conversation, and it went for about an hour, and we talked all about his book, all about his goals.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's a public speaker, he wants to increase his speaker fees, he wants, and I'm talking about how to use his book.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even I didn't even I talk.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is I like I love this idea, and but this is how when you have this book, this is how you use it to get more speaking engagements, this is how you use it to get bigger fees, and then this is how you use it to make money while on the stage, even when even um when you're not allowed to sell from the stage.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some sort of tricks that you can use as a speaker where you bring your book on stage and you and you say, you know what, a client actually gave me this thing and they said it better than me.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let me open up my book and I'm just gonna read the read their words.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you like it's a prop on stage, and people want your book that uh that way.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots of different ways.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I had him thinking about how to use that content to make more money.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, he's getting excited.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting excited because I love this stuff, but he's also doing the math in his head about how much this is worth to his bottom line.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then when he asked me for my price and I told him it was$35,000, he paused for a second and he hired me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he told me that was more than twice as high as the next bidder for his book.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: But he knew that he was in so he was in good hands speaking with someone who could help him get a return and didn't just, I always say, don't just give people word docs and well wishes, help them succeed.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I have had a little bit of trouble with because I I don't I I come from a ministry and education background, probably two of the vocations or career paths that are like the least sales-centric, you know, like like I have no sales training or background at all.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's an area where I have honestly struggled with a lot is knowing I can identify I have lots of connections, I'm great with relationships, the podcast is very helpful with that.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I have a lot of trouble bridging that gap between here's someone I know that I can help.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know for a fact that I've got the skills, I can help them with their content on all that stuff.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: But then how do I bridge that gap then to having a conversation about, hey, here's how I think I can help you, here's how much it costs, etc.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are the best ways that you've found for actually having those, I guess you would call them sales conversations, or if if there's probably a better term, but how do I actually initiate those conversations with people who are in my circle?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know I can help them, but I got to have that conversation and to actually get the client.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would ask them, I first ask them about their business and how they make money.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um, if there's someone who's a realtor, so how do you, you know, tell me about how you get your um get your clients?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them, many of them, will say it's by referral or it's uh existing clients, and that's not necessarily helpful.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then you start talking about, well, who introduces you to these people other than clients?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to introduce you to someone who'd be really valuable, who could I introduce you to?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you start just expressing and getting a sense of how they how their business works.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they have a blog or if they haven't had a book, um, then you might start talking about books that are um that are in their industry to the extent you know you know of that, for example.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I might do a little research and say, hey, have you heard of this this lady?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, oh, she wrote a book about real estate and she seems to be crushing it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I thought you might be I thought you might be interested in it, or I thought it might be something that came across your desk.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And typically they they if they don't, then you start talking about books and be like, oh yeah, uh, have you ever thought about writing a book?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that something a lot of people do in the in the real estate space or in the whatever space?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because um if they you're not doing it as selling, you're just asking questions.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Have you thought about writing a book?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something people do in your space?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know in a bunch of other spaces, it's it's a it's a great way to um to stand out.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're the person who had enough information to organize it into a book.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you just start having conversations like that about books.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I might not even say, have you ever thought about writing a book?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: I might be say something to the effect of there are a lot of real estate books out there.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that uh that you see coming more and more of?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've started helping a lot of uh realtors or I've started helping a lot of people uh with content, and I'm looking to get into the real estate space because I have an interest for it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I would hope that you have an interest for stuff that you're pursuing because it makes it a much better experience for you and makes the content better because you'll want to do the research, you'll want to do the work, it'll be better content.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I start talking about their business and ask them about books and and whatnot.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And typically, if they say no, then I probably won't, I I probably won't uh won't push them on it, but I might start asking but uh them something to the effect of so uh so that's all right.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you do you mind if I ask you questions about some of the content that you use just to help me when I'm talking to prospects or leads?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're in your circle, they'll say sure.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you start asking questions like um you know, how do you get your content?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or how did you develop content?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh who do you know who's really doing a good job with marketing in your uh in your business?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they might tell you some stories and eventually they give you some good advice.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end, I would just say, um, well, that sounds great.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: If there's anyone I can introduce you to, let me know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, if you know people who are really active in marketing, whether it's from your industry or not, I'd love to have a conversation with them just to hear more about what they're doing.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Then you you do get some referrals there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: But oftentimes when you talk about books, especially, people have all have had this dream of writing a book.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I would talk with them about the book and uh they will say, Yeah, I've always thought about writing this book, but I never thought I had something to say.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would just give them some advice and just be really helpful about them and their book.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end, they often ask.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what I try to do is reverse the conversation to just get them excited about the book and then have them say, Um, uh, I'd love to, I'd love to write a book.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something you could help me with?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: How would that work?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that opening gets me more comfortable to say, well, we got three ways we could work together.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I could coach you through your book, uh, we could write it together as a collaborative process, or we could reverse roles and I do the heavy lifting with the writing, and you become an editor.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell my clients, they become the editor because they will need to touch the words.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if they expect to not touch the words, then they will be unhappy when they have to touch the words.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I plant the seeds in their head that they're going to be involved in the in the manuscript writing.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they're very, very happy to do it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, many of them do more work than I expect, and it becomes easier for me.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then we just have, well, what would this look like?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: What would that look like?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: If they are um, if I'm having that, if I'm just starting out, then I might go for an ask and say um something to the effect of, hey, I'm just building up my my ghost.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I might say I'm just building up my ghostwriting business uh and I'm looking to get a few projects under my belt.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love to, uh, if you're interested in writing a book, if you always thought about writing a book, I'd love to do it for just enough to cover my time and collaborate with you on the book.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: My name wouldn't appear anywhere an anywhere, but it would be a great value for me while helping you build your business.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then talk about a lower, uh, lower price.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did when I started out.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend who was writing a book.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: This was my second project, and I said, Hey, Tom, and Tom gave me a video testimonial so I can say not that anyone would know from his first name, but hey, Tom, I know you've been writing a book for 10 months.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: How about we make the 10, the next 10 months the time where you actually get it published?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, he says, Well, what do you mean?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Listen, I'm building up my resume and I am looking to get a few books under my belt before I really get into the the the real pricing, the real higher prices for the for ghostwriting.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're interested, I'm happy to give you the deal of the century on your book.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, How much?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I did it dirt cheap.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did his book for 3,500 bucks.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was an easy book.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I knew the content, so I could have written it myself.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I did it in maybe a month part-time.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was still practicing law full-time, and he's ecstatic.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a book under my resume, and he's referred me.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he has been, if you trace back my referrals, it's been, you know, I'm at like fifth or sixth level referrals now.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: He has sent me many, many, many, many clients.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Probably totally, totally worth it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the and the truth is you really only need the first few clients.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're the right people, if they're growth-minded, if they're active in business, if their business involves connecting people or building relationships, and uh they it is so worth going in, not writing for free, but getting paid a little bit and then getting that earning those referrals because you once you have three or four books under your belt, uh especially with the right people, they start referring you to people and you really start branching out.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: A strategy that I have thought about offering to prospective clients to as a way to open up conversations and potentially make some money, because I I want to do you know, write writing blog posts and things like that as a as well as books.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I love both things, and I know that I know that you do both things as well.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I've thought about offering is doing a free content audit for prospective clients, like saying, Hey Nick, I noticed that you have some content out there.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be happy to go through your all your social media stuff, your blog posts, podcast, if you've been on podcast appearances, and I'll take maybe an hour of my time or so and write up kind of a report of here's some ways that you can improve, here's some things you're doing well, here's some ways that I could help you.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then let's have a conversation.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'll walk through all that with you.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Does that seem to you like a a good thing to offer as a way to then potentially get some clients?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or does that seem like that's very time intensive on my part?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say it's very time intensive, but I wouldn't I wouldn't say to not do it ever.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't offer it to the world.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't put it on your website.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I might I might go to str people who you want to strategically build a relationship with, especially those who outsource a lot.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you talk to someone about their podcast or a podcaster and say, who does your editing?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they say, Oh, I got a service for that, that's a good sign that they value paying people to do things for them.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good point.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look to people who you can tell outsource, and um, and especially people who are thought leaders, uh, and that means they like not the doctor, but the people who teach doctors how to make money.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because doctors are service providers, and the people who teach doctors to make money are scalers.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: They scale.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: The more doctors they get in their system, the more money they can make.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you could write for a medical practice, you could write a book for a doctor who wants to be on CNN or MSNBC or whatever.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if you see people who are um who are scaling a message and thought leaders, consultants, and things like that, those are those are typically good people to target.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's a consultant with a podcast and you talk about how they um edit their podcast and they say, Oh, I have this service, do it, um, then that's a good sign.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then I might say, then I might make that offer, but I would make that offer on an individual basis to say I'm writing content to help people, and then get more eyeballs, get more SEO for your for your podcast, for your show notes, or build show notes that get you more clicks or get you a more robust uh online presence or a more impactful online presence.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the things that they're gonna want.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something I have uh that I've really had a struggle with the last year or so is so I I was in this uh, I guess I'm still in it, this ghostwriting mastermind uh that I found on LinkedIn, a group of really, really good people, and somebody in the group said that one of their mentors, I guess it was, that they made the comment in some in some kind of setting that if you have the desire to write your own books, that you'll never be highly successful as a ghostwriter because you will always have that impulse to write your own stuff as opposed to writing other people's stuff.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that struck me as really odd because that's a real struggle that I have.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've got lots of my own books that I want to write.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working on one now, probably called Smart Business Writing, just like the podcast title to go along with this.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really have the impulse to teach others about productivity and mindset and writing, and I want that to be a part of my business, but I also love ghostwriting, and I definitely want to build that up.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak into that impulse that a lot of people may have, that struggle between ghostwriting but also writing your own stuff?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a like is that a real thing, or is that just like a false um like a false conflict?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I like you you can still write your own stuff, but also be a successful ghostwriter as well.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's a false conflict.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh there may be some people who have that struggle.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are people, and I have posts on Facebook uh and even ads that I post to attract people to download a free ebook, to get them some information, to build a relationship with them about helping them get into ghostwriting.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and I get comments that are like, isn't that basically having someone else make all the money off of your work?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot of even even beyond the the practical theoretical struggle about not having the ability or time to write your own.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a lot of people who just don't have that, uh, they need the credit.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have that um sort of personality to.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love not getting credit.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love seeing people so excited about their books and know I am um and and know that I helped them do that.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's because I'm a parent and I just love seeing my kids succeed or or whatever, and I consider my books sort of projects that I helped birth.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: But um no, I think you can definitely, in fact, I know you can definitely write your own content.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: My issue with writing my own content has been time.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if you're super, super busy with ghostwriting, there is some pull on your own time.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I tend to also not be a super uh regimented time manager.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I hate saying no to clients.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: So if they say, hey, you want to start a new book, I'll say yes.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's wise.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I have kicked the can down the road on a couple of my projects, but that's just because I didn't defend that time.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I could have just defended and said, okay, for an hour a day, I'm gonna do my work.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: I choose to do nothing with that time, really.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure I could find it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: I actually am writing my own books now, but I'm working with someone on my team who's helping me from a ghostwriting perspective, which is funny.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's great.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she loves it because she's an awesome writer, and I get to coach her through writing books.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so she's she's she's a great writer.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: She's written several bestsellers.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: She's written for Newsweek, she's written for New York Times, so she's she's awesome.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I love collaborating.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I am uh, and I'm doing a lot of writing in that, and I write a lot of blog posts or whatever.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you can definitely do it.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, just consider yourself a client and know that if you're doing it, you it's a great um sort of muscle to flex.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's great expression of your own creativity.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I I mean, right now we have about 20 books that we're working on.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some are towards the very end, and I have four people working with me.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: So some are towards the end, some are towards the beginning, some are in the middle.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was even part-time still working at the law firm before I went full-time, I had four or five projects going on at any time.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had conversations with clients knowing this is how much time I got and this is how much time it's gonna get.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I just block out that time for myself to write my own.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do want to write your own content, I might do it outside of business hours and say, okay, I'm gonna wake up early in the morning, write my own content, and then when I get home from work at night is when I'm gonna be doing the client contact content.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you're going full time, I'm gonna do after the kids go to bed, it's my content, and then during the day is ghostwriting.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just treat your business like a business.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then just like you can work at UPS and write your own book, you can be a ghostwriter and write your own book.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to be strategic with how you're using your time, I guess.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you a little bit about strategy, and then I want to follow that up with a couple of specific client situations.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously I'm not gonna name the clients because that's like against the code, of course, of ghostwriting.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: But a big reason that I pivoted my former podcast to this podcast on business writing was to help grow my ghostwriting business.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's also both things.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love teaching, I want to write my own stuff.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love I'm just a natural teacher at heart, but I I really, really love writing for other people because I've learned so much.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Many things just from the admittedly limited amount of client work that I've done the last few years, I just have really grown and loved that that aspect of it too.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: From your perspective as a podcaster, as a ghostwriter, as an author yourself, are there are there some ways that I could be strategically using this podcast to help grow my ghostwriting business?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Aside from just having guests on the podcast who I that I could later potentially pitch or develop relationships with, are there some ways that I could be using this podcast really strategically to help grow the ghostwriting side of my business?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of interviews are great.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: And interview so there are a few things you could do with interviews.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is you could use your interview guest strategy as a way to build relationships with leads.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if they're listening to this episode now, they will hear the strategy, but that's okay.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing it with a good heart.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: So essentially, you invite people on your um on your podcast to talk about business writing and how they use writing to grow their business who don't have books.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: They might have blogs, they don't have books.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you write?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you decide what to write?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to the people who are just getting started writing, you from the business perspective, you're trying to build your business.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that if you write with SEO in mind, you're going to end up with good blog posts and you want to have something that's that's skimmable, and you start talking and you're helping them become the hero.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're, you're, you're planting seeds in their head for them to say, Yeah, I always think about these keywords or whatever.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they just, and then you start talking to them.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how much time do you spend writing?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Even on the podcast, you interview them about their writing process.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea there is other business leaders get to hear that and know how much work goes into it.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: They get to talk about how valuable that's been to their business.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I had this one person read my blog and reach out to me and book me for a speaking engagement or hired me because they they picked up a little ebook that I did, or I use an ebook there.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you start talking.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, how much would uh if depending on how much how many dollars and cents you could talk about, but so so if you were to be able to get two more clients from your um from having a book or for having uh an ebook or for taking your blog post and repurposing them, adding some content and repurposing them into a book, how do you think that would impact your business?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I love what you're doing.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk a little bit, let's let's dream a little bit in the future.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me a little bit about how if you had a book or are you running against people who have books?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you just you so you get what they're doing really successful, and you talk with them and get them to talk about how great it would be to have another, have more blog posts, more consistency.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right there on the podcast.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you're almost like opening the sales conversation right there on an interview.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you're but in and you when you do it with the right heart, you're helping all of the writers.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: You let's dig deep.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I can do a lot of talking and teaching about people who who write, uh, but let's talk a little bit about the people who are in business too.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want to feature the business people.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the listeners will hear you coach people through, and it'll they'll feel you asking them those questions.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the guest will be talking with you when you already have a relationship with them.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then step three on that, or whatever step we're on, would be to promote the episode consistently, tag them, make them the hero, maintain that relationship with them, and share a great blog post that they do and things like that.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're building the relationship, and your guests become the lead and they'll and and you help them want to do more work.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I have I don't do a lot of podcasting.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do now with um the ghostwriting content, and I do one with my kids.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: But when I Which is great.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that show.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is so great.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mike, thank you.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: My kids are are pretty active.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm out, and one of the best things about ghostwriting is you can do it from anywhere.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you and I, no one can see, but you and I are talking.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm in my mother-in-law's den, and the kids have no idea that I'm on a podcast interview, they kind of know.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my son came wandering in behind me.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you may love it though.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he he he knows when he sees me on a microphone to to be somewhat quiet, but he's he's still not uh, you know, he's no ballerina.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: But all that to say, um, one that's one of the beautiful things about it.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: But when when I did do some some podcast interviews, after the interview, I had people say, Man, the ghostwriting is it sounds really, really cool.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've had this book in my brain.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: And especially so when you have people who are active on media and podcast being a good sort of a good uh sexy new-ish media, I've been podcasting since 2014, and I know you've been podcasting for a while, but people who are thinking about podcasting, thinking about media, active on media, they there's a book in there somewhere.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: They've been thinking about it.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: So bring leads as guests, talk to them about their process, talk to have them talk to the listeners about how their content has helped them already and how more content could help them even more, and different types of content can help them even more.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: They start thinking about it, your listeners start thinking about it.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you put different conversations in the listeners' heads and your heads while giving them tremendous value.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if they want to have someone uh help them with their content, you're the natural person to do it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna have to go back and listen to this episode a couple times to like digest everything that you're saying because there's so much there that is so great.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's amazing.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I'm as I'm doing this podcast, what and I'm sending people back to my website potentially, you know, because I'm not just trying to develop relationships with prospective ghostwriting clients, I'm also writing my own books.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll eventually have courses and other stuff for people.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: What what would you say would be a great lead magnet?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I ask people check out my website as listen to the show.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Currently I have something called the ultimate toolkit for creative entrepreneurs.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really need to change it probably to something related to business writers specifically.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think, you know, for all those who are listening who are trying to get clients, trying to establish their their online branding and so forth, is something like a toolkit with a bunch of resources a good idea, a checklist?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: I guess there's a variety of things we can have as lead magnets.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I tend to not charge for information, but charge for organization and customization.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would do is I would consider what are the things that you what's the what are the pieces of information you can give someone that they can use on their own and and achieve something valuable to them.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it might be an anat the anatomy of a high impact blog post for your business, where you go through a blog post or you you go through the the pieces of it and how to make it useful and why that makes it useful.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the title.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: The title needs to be clickable.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you say, you know, something to the effect of uh three things to do every day in business, that's not really that sexy because the word thing doesn't really um it doesn't tell you tell you much, and then it doesn't have an outcome, three things to do in business.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you say um four social media platforms that are a waste of time if you're in business, then they might want to click that, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um you you have that pain point there.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So number one is you so you go through the title and then the first sentence, include a keyword that your clients or your pro your your ideal prospects search for in that in that first sentence, and or include a search term, you don't have to use the word keyword, because then Google knows, and then you say, Google knows that this is going to be relevant to the post because it's a main topic.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone is searching for how to find uh how to buy chickens, then you say, if you're looking to buy chickens in the first line or how to buy chickens.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: When if you're wondering how to buy chickens in this economy, so include the keyword in the first sentence.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because that'll start making connections with Google.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when people search, Google will start thinking about your blog post more.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just go through subheadings, go through and why that's important.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Make it skimmable because, and then have those subheadings every 200 words or so.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you do, then people's brains start telling them they don't have to work so hard to get to the next section.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll say, All right, I'll read this.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you have long paragraphs, they won't read it.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: They'll feel intimidated.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you have three sentences or less paragraphs, they'll say, All right, I just got through this is just a little paragraph, I'll read it.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then they get to it and say, ah, there's just a couple more sentences, I'll read it.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: And next thing you know, all right, there's only one more little paragraph before the next subheading.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then they get to the subheading and they have that same thought process.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Next thing you know, they're at the end of the blog post and you've helped them out a lot.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you just go through the anatomy of a good blog post and show that you know what you're doing and give people everything they need to do it themselves.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there are gonna be two types of people who read that content.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: The type of person who will never hire you and the type of person who will never do it themselves.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if the type of person will never hire you, they're just gonna, if they do it, they're gonna start getting results.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when people say, Man, how do you write such great blog posts?
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna say, call Kent.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's the type of person who would never do it themselves, they're just gonna call Kent.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So either way, you're good.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you think that that would make a really great lead magnet, like how to write a great blog post, something like that.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I wouldn't even say great blog post, I'd make sure just like that title, um, your title needs to help solve a pain point that your client wants.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So how to write a blog post that gets you on the first page of Google.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Or like in 60 minutes or how to write it in an hour or something like that.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: How to write a how to write a blog post that ranks you on Google or how to the in 30 minutes or less or something like that.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean how to write a an effective blog post for your business in 30 minutes or less.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask about um uh one more specific thing, and then I would love for you to share about your upcoming webinar and ghostwriter growth and all the amazing things you're doing, which could be a whole podcast in itself because you're doing so many cool things.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let me do kind of a super quick like case study, and I I I want to see if I did this something right, because I'm not sure if I did.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I and you know the client that I'm talking about, obviously I'm not gonna say who it is, or the prospective client.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: So a while back I connected with someone in the publishing industry on LinkedIn, uh, was very complimentary about some things that they did, and genuinely, and I was totally genuine about it.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would, this was I was not blowing smoke or anything.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: I just legitimately was just making a connection.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then they invited me to have a phone call just to kind of get to know you and to find out what you're doing and and that sort of thing, which I loved.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: So on this phone call, uh, this person uh towards the end asked if I would be interested in helping uh essentially ghostwrite a project they had been thinking about, but because they have a lot of responsibility, they're very successful in their field, they don't really have probably time to write write this book.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um we ended that conversation and there was a lot of interest on their part, and I was like, yeah, this could be like my first actual ghostwriting paying ghostwriting project, and I was very, very excited.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um then we set a date for you know several weeks down the road to chat again about it.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: So in the meantime, rather than just letting that time go by, I asked this person if it would be okay if I took the snippet of an idea.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, this was 30 seconds worth of a half-hour phone call that they gave me about this book idea.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: I took that and I developed a probably a five or six single space page outline for the book.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Went back and listened to a bunch of their previous podcast interviews, read their previous book, did a lot of background work for this potential project, put together what I thought was a very, very strong outline for it, lots of brainstorming on it.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I wrote this all up very nicely, spent about 15 hours on it, sent it to them, and we're talking very, very soon about that.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess what I want to know is did I do the right thing by putting in a bunch of work on the front end, not knowing if this project will actually get a green light?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that I did, but I thought I would I would try to make it very easy for this person to say yes.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: If they saw all the work that I already put into it, um I just wanted to make it an easy yes as possible, but I'm not sure that I did this correctly.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd say two things.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um number one is you may have built a little bit of the law of reciprocity, where you which states that if you do something for someone, they feel the urge or the the um they feel obligated to reciprocate.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's possible that you built some good reciprocity there.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, he did that work.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't have done it this way.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really like the outline, but clearly the guy knows what he's talking about, and he's a hard worker.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, maybe let's work together.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's a positive thing.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: One of the perhaps negative or challenges that you may encounter is, and and and I do know this person, and because they are involved in the in the book world, I probably don't think this is a big deal with this one.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of people who are immature in the book world, and I don't mean that they're they're beginners in the book world, don't understand that the writing process takes several iterations to find the sweet spot.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you gave something and they look at it and say, well, this doesn't sound like me, then they might think, but so I don't want to go forward with Kent because it doesn't sound like me.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't get me.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the challenge.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now I don't I I don't think this person, uh, I don't think this is an issue in this case.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it was uh it was a good instinct, it was a good read.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: I would tend to have more conversations about this stuff to say this is what I'm um envisioning.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: And especially if you're tying everything to a goal that they have.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do an outline and say, someone, I want to get more speaking engagements, you could say this, you put a chapter and then you add a note.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this could be a great keynote, or this could let uh people know, or let uh uh event coordinators know that you have a good heart or whatever.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you start giving some reasoning in an outline or an explanation up front and say, obviously, this is really flexible, but this is sort of the beginning of an outline.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: I typically don't do that work until um until the relationship starts because I will have that conversation saying it's a bit of a process for us to get to know each other.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I say, like I said earlier, that's why I say you're you become the editor.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that way they know that, listen, the best ghostwriters in the world can write great content, can help with your voice, can eventually get your voice, but no one knows your voice better than you.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some people who just can't, they they just can't say, wow, this sounds good.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds like I would say it, but I probably would have written it a little differently.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Some people just have to rewrite things.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have clients who I had a client who basically rewrote their whole book and is one of my happiest clients and has referred me several people.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: And like I even say, like, they're like, Oh, you wrote that guy's book.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, not really.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I essentially ended up just coaching through it.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote it.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'll say.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if someone says, Oh, you know, Sally told me you wrote her book, and I said, Not really.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sally wrote everything, but I I did the first draft, I coached her through it, and you know, she did real, real heavy editing.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: She essentially rewrote it at the end.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's great, and you know, she's happy, I'm happy.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: I and this is of course is not something I would do for every prospective client, is put in all this work, not knowing if it's even gonna get a green light.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for someone in the industry, and and this person in particular, I think you did, I think that's a good idea because he he has referred me several people as well.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And to get on, to get to show him that you're a professional and that you take things seriously and you're a hard worker is going to uh it'll definitely pay dividends for sure.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my goal was basically to show this person, hey, I take initiative, you know, here's how I can maybe serve you.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm legit, I can do this, da-da-da.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we'll see how it pans out.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um okay, well, enough about me.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would love uh Nick, if you can share uh a bit about the webinar that you have coming up, and I will, by the way, make sure in time the release of this episode to that to get hopefully some maximum oomph and juice out of it.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think I've ever used that phrase here on the podcast.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oomph and juice.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even sure it's appropriate, but anyway.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know, right?
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am from the Midwest, so we have our own odd phrases here.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh sure.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, if you can talk a bit about that and Ghost Rider School or the Facebook group or whatever you'd like to share, that would be awesome.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the the if you want to be able to learn about everything in one place, the Facebook group is the place to go because I'll be there, I'll be active, and if it's past the time for the webinar, you'll have an opportunity to get other free training that we're doing and uh even watch a replay if you've missed the live training for that's coming up.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we're recording this at the beginning of April of 2020, and on the 16th of April at 8 p.m.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Eastern time, I am doing a live training on basically how to become a uh a ghostwriter that people want to work with.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, and how you can do it in such a way where you do it with your business and personal goals in mind.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we're in this real chaotic time where the entire country of the United States is essentially on pause because there's this coronavirus going on.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of businesses laid off a lot of people.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it um and it stinks.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Back in 2008, 2009, when that was happening because of the financial crisis, I was working at a law firm and I was still a full-time lawyer, and my sole income was as a lawyer.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I had essentially 100% of my family's income, because my wife was about to stay home with our son, 100% of my family's income tied up in one business, in one per one, in one law firm, and they did lay people off.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, it I didn't get laid off.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if one business suffered, then I lost 100% of my income.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: This, and I had to go to work every day, I had to be in one place.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here, now that I have this ghostwriting business, I have 20 clients, give or take.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if one suffers, even my biggest client, it's still not even close to half or a third or even less than that of my income.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So having that security has been such uh uh I mean it's it's just been such a benefit to have multiple streams of income, to be paid well uh because you present yourself and you treat yourself like a like a professional ghostwriter.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: So how to get out from the freelance writer mode where people see you as a vendor and just want to pay you uh pennies, like um like they do when they hire someone through a content factory, and then how to get clients, even if you're just starting out and aren't a business person, how to have conversations with people like similar to the ones we talked about, but all of the different ways that you can have conversations with people you already know to lead yourself towards finding the right clients to get those three or four under your belt and create that referral network.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then how to do it without spending money on really much of anything.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: Typically, if you have a computer and an internet connection and a button-down shirt or a nice shirt that you can wear and look like a professional, you have everything you need to start a ghostwriting business.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: There are all these people who say you need this fancy software or that.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not true.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are all these companies who advertise.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: I looked online and I looked in Google.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if you wanted to pay to get clicks for uh business ghostwriter or um or related terms as uh selling ghostwriting services.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when someone searches Google for I want a ghostwriter or something like that, just to get them to click over to your website, it was between something like$7 and$19 a click.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Insane.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I just did it a couple days ago, I just looked.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I have spent a total on my ghostwriting business, a total of$21.55 on marketing.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: For donuts, if I recall.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: For donuts, exactly.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: After I already went full time, I wanted to see if I could get my um if I could get my the name of my ghostwriting business mentioned on the radio on National Donut Day.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I sent some donuts to the radio station.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I did.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have the clip.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I got they they mentioned it twice.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get any business out of it, but it was more of just you know a fun little challenge.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: So how to do all of that without spending money on ads, and especially if you're introverted, because I hate selling.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and and I'm a closet introvert.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people say, Oh, you record a course, you do a podcast, whatever.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: I am really, really happy being quarantined and just sitting at home.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's it's okay.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's and it's one of those jokes, you know, check on all the extroverts because they're the ones struggling right now.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I um so I'm having this training where I teach methods just like we're talking about now, really high value stuff, um, on the three keys, the three things I really wish, the first three things I wish people taught me when I started ghostwriting.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, how to get those fees, how to set those fees, how to get people to treat you like a professional, how to get clients, and then how to build a business.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: business without ever spending a dime on ads.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna be doing that on April 16th at 8 p.m.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Eastern time.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't make if you can make it live, you can ask questions at the end and we'll stick around at the end.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't, we'll get you the the replay.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if people want to go directly to that, they can go to ghostwriterschool.com slash free training.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's after April 16th, that will redirect you to the Facebook group where you can get more um you can connect with me.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: But the Ghostwriter Growth group on Facebook, Facebook.com slash groups slash ghostwriter growth, that will lead everyone and if you can't remember any of those links, just go to ghostwriterschool.com and you'll be able to connect there.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well I'm gonna encourage everybody to do that because um not only is your course awesome and I've been through it it's really really great.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the Facebook group too.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of great questions there and I cannot ever recall seeing a Facebook group grow so fast.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's at this point it's up to what over 700 people or something.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think it's crazy.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's been there for about a month or so and and people what I'm doing is I'm getting like like you asked earlier I have an ebook and if you if you go to the website ghostwriterschool.com you can see the ebook and that ebook is um it walks you through the eight reasons that ghostwriting is different.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: So how how ghostwriting can actually help you unlock your dreams.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you see that visual I want to work from anywhere I want multiple streams of income I want to be my own boss uh all those types of things but but real specific reasons and then how to set your prices and we talk a little bit about setting by time setting by words setting by project and then sort of how to build your business ghostwriting plan.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I um I had a Facebook ad that I placed for ghostwriter school now that I have spent a few hundred dollars uh maybe a little more than that giving away this free book and then in the thank you email I say here's your book here's your free ebook it's like 18 pages and in that ebook and in the thank you email when I deliver it to people I say hey join my group and so many people have joined and they're asking great questions and they're helping each other.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I did a poll last week where people filled out I noticed you filled that out too we have a really cool mix of people who have written for their own and they they want to become ghostwriters who have get steady part-time work and we have several full-time ghostwriters who are it's such a great growth minded group we have people saying hey I need help on a project um and taking people's asking people and what's great is and she asked she reached out to me and said hey I need help on this project I will pay for people to submit samples to me what do you is that okay if I post it which was awesome.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we have people sharing leads sharing projects sharing inspiration uh it it's just such a such a great group well Nick this has been a blast sorry I just took a drink and I'm I was crunching on ice a little bit I'm I'm not even gonna edit that out this is not this is like the the Conan O'Brien version of podcasts like it's right the bar is really low.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah did you if you you may have heard my my son bouncing around every once in a while behind me but I saw him saw him a couple times was like hey if I was a kid I would totally be doing that if my dad was I was doing a podcast I'd be the one banging on pots and pans and stuff.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nick this has been a blast I really appreciate all your great insights with this and I'm really excited about the webinar in fact I've got to sign up for it.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've signed up for it yet I've got to do that.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've been through the course and everything but but every time that that you put out something it's always updated.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's always new stuff so I'm excited about uh being a part of that as well.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again so much.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure thank you.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hey I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nick I had a blast and I'm sure that you learned a ton as well.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let me boil it down to my three biggest takeaways from our conversation.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, be very careful about writing for free.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this was one of the very first things that we talked about in this interview and the issue of writing for free is a really common problem among writers.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason for that is because we tend to not value our own work.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not a psychologist and I don't play one on TV of course so I don't know all the reasons why writers and creative people tend to not value our work very much at least monetarily but we've got to stop doing that.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: We need to value our work.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: I need to value my work and you need to value your work.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: You need to value your time your effort your experience your energy your creative powers and also your ability to sell, persuade, tell stories and teach with your words because all those are valuable skills not just creatively but all those are skills that are valuable in the marketplace.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that people pay for so if you want to actually get paid for your work you have to first value yourself before other people are going to value that and put dollar figures on those skills.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now when you're just getting started it's tempting as Nick mentioned to want to write for free but you don't have to write for free.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Charge at least a little bit to get compensated for your time.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you again from personal experience that if you don't value your time at the beginning of a client relationship, that client will tend to not value your time as that relationship goes on.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: In fact I've had that happen more than once over the past several months and it's a mistake that I'm really really trying to avoid.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let's take away number one.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, a podcast is a great way to connect with prospective clients.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you from personal experience that having a podcast specifically this podcast that you're listening to it is a great way to connect with people and those connections and relationships can help you land clients.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: However there's there's something really important that you have to remember about all this.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think of this as something like oh I'll have this person as a guest on my show and then I'm going to give them a big pitch and they're gonna hire me for all this stuff because I don't think usually it works like that.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But having somebody as a guest opens up that relationship that can lead to other things later on if it's a good fit and if you have the right relationship with that person.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: For example, let me give you one example with the client that I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, the one who I'm now writing a book for it was a really huge help that I had several people on this show as podcast guests who are part of that person's professional and personal circle.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the podcast for me is about building relationships and giving people value and over time those relationships and the value that you give through the podcast and to those podcast guests that gives you credibility to people within those other people's circles and that helps establish trust you know it's that old thing in business of people do business with other people that they know, like and trust.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So all those things are very important when you are developing a client relationship.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And for me a podcast is so valuable because it does help you to build trust with people.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: It helps you to build those relationships and those personal connections that are really difficult to get any other way.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And especially right now because we're dealing with this whole pandemic situation, man, podcasting is great because you can just get on Zoom or Skype or whatever you want to use and do these remote interviews with people and you can add value to them.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_00: It adds value to your business and you're also giving value to your listeners and to your guest audience as well.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see how all these things kind of interconnect together almost like a a giant puzzle so to speak also one more thing about podcasts that I love before I move on to takeaway number three a reason one of the reasons that podcasting is so great is because you can get almost anybody as a guest on a well produced show.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's a limit to that you know I'm not gonna call up probably um gosh who's a famous artist I'm I'm drawing a total blank or a movie star.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna call up um Tony Robbins you know today or Brad Pitt or um Steven Spielberg or Tom Cruise.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna just call up any of those people and say hey can you be on my podcast?
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know they are far out of my my reach and my circle at least at this point in my life.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm probably not going to call somebody far beyond like my my social reach and my professional reach.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: But within reason I can I can get a hold of a lot of people and ask them if they would like to be a guest on the show.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually pretty cool because most people are willing you know again within reason to be a guest on a podcast.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't even matter if your show is big or small.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: What really matters is that you're a professional that in in my experience is what really counts.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about having the biggest show in the world it's really about being a professional asking good questions having a show that sounds good you know that doesn't sound really cruddy or like a transistor radio or like you don't know what you're doing with recording and editing and that kind of stuff.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a decently produced show and you're a professional and you're a good interviewer within reason, you know I think those that's basically what you need to be able to invite people on your show.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a couple thoughts about podcasting.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then finally takeaway number three you can write your own books and ghostwrite other people's books.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now as you heard in this interview I told Nick that at least I think I said this if I recall correctly if I didn't forgive me but I think in the interview I said that someone in the ghostwriting community and I'm not going to name who that was obviously this person had told me that you can never be a successful ghostwriter if you have aspirations of writing your own books.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when they said that that really bothered me because I thought well I've got a lot of my own books that I want to write but I also want to be a ghostwriter for other people as well.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really glad that Nick helped me see that it's possible to write your own stuff and ghostwriter for other people as well let me share with you a big reason why I love ghostwriting and also doing other types of client work.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know not every type of client work is ghostwriting.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I also write podcast show notes for several clients I do other kinds of editing and writing related work for people some stuff with email marketing and occasionally build websites for people and I do kind of a range of things there's a reason why I really like working with clients and not just creating my own stuff and it's because I learn things from clients that I could never learn otherwise every single client that I have I think almost without exception every single client teaches me something and I get to learn about all kinds of interesting subjects and topics that I wouldn't be able to learn about otherwise I mean goodness just in the past year I can think of clients that I've worked with I've learned a lot about public speaking I've learned about the floral industry I've learned about law enforcement I've learned some things about attorneys and their work learned lots of things about marketing and there's several other things that aren't coming to mind offhand but the point of all this is that you can learn a lot of cool things about a lot of different industries and topics when you do client work.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a curious person and you really enjoy learning which I hope that you are I mean if you're not a curious person you don't like to learn you probably wouldn't be listening to this podcast.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're that kind of a person, ghostwriting is a fantastic way to do that.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well friends that brings us to the end of this episode.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I loved this episode I had so much fun talking with Nick and I want to first of all thank him for his time and being a guest on the show.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I also want to thank you for listening.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_00: You are the reason why I do the show.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I once again I say this all the time but I I really appreciate your time and listening to this episode and supporting the show in general.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you go and sign up for Nick's free training at ghostwriterschool.com slash free training.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you it's going to be great.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Nick is one of those guys where whenever he puts together something for free like a a webinar or a free download or something like that, his free stuff is better than most people's paid stuff.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So just make sure you sign up for it.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's a really great guy.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And also make sure you go to uh the Facebook group called Ghostwriter Growth there will be a link in the show notes where you can check that out.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure and join that group it has exploded in popularity the last couple months right now as I'm recording this on April 9th it's over I think 700 members and he just launched it I mean what two or three months ago or something?
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just like exploded.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Man what a fun group and uh what a fun guy so thank you so much again for listening and always remember that you can find lots more resources for writers and creatives at my site which is KentSanders.net.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode