Latest / The Bechdel Cast / Revisiting 'Her' in the Age of AI with Mona Chalabi

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Revisiting 'Her' in the Age of AI with Mona Chalabi · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism the patriarchy zeph and best
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Dinner, We're going on tour. That was supposed to be
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: the intro to the Star Wars theme song. Did you
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: get that? Oh it sounded like I was going Donna, Okay,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Jamie and Caitlin. Here, we're going on tour and we're
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: in the Midwest and soon. Why did I make the
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Star Wars noise? Well, it's because we're covering the Star
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Wars prequels. If you haven't seen them, we're gonna just
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: cover all three at once. You know it's gonna be fine.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: If you have seen them, you're gonna be so mad
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: at us. There's been so much talk about the prequels
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: over the years, often on podcasts we really like, often
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: by writers we really like, but never from an intersectional
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour to
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: quickly realize why that is so true.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: And also some people love these movies. I know, I
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: don't quite get it, but we'll explore why. At the shows.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: They're so soapy. I kind of like it.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can see us discuss all three prequels
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: in one show, in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: don't want to miss this, among many other things that
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: you will see because we pull out all the stops.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: For our live shows. Oh, we's embarrassing.
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: What we do.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: We do fanfic, we do. I edit little videos that
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I insist on screening. We do trivia.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I usually do some piece of performance art that no
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: one asked for.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: It's a spectacle. Let me tell you, it's all happening.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: We will be doing all of that and more at
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: the following cities. We will be in Indianapolis for Let's
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show, and
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening that
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: can't be missed.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Also at the Fountain Square Theater called Jamie Loftus and
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: her pet Rock Solve the World's Problems, in which that
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: will happen.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: I can't wait.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Then the next day, the very next day, we are
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: going to Chicago, you asked, We listened. We will be
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: at the Den Theater on August thirty. First, that show
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: is going to start around seven, seven to fifteen pm.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: It's an evening show, a sexy little evening show. We're
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: so excited to go to Chicago and the Den Theater
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: is so beautiful, so Chicagoans do not miss it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show and oh,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: we're so excited to be in Madison.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and that is where we're ending our grand tour of
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: the Midwest. So if you have been one of the
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: many people asking us to come to your town for
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: the last ten years we're doing it, we would love
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: to see you. The shows are super fun. As we've said,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: if you're a Matron, specifically, if you're a member of
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: our Patroon aka Matreon, you get a free little gift
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: at the merch table when you come to say hi
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: after the show. It's a blast. It's going to be
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: a super good time. We love Cienya. You can get
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: all tickets on our link tree at link Tree slash
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Bectel Cast. Exqueeze me, We'll see you there.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Enjoy the episode the Bechdel Cast. Hey, Os, Jamie, it's
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: me Os, Caitlin.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, where the os is that are plotting to disappear
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: into the Obama era?
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: There?
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, we're the good robots.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you wanna ascend into the fourth dimension with me?
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Because we've just been like growing and evolving so much
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: and this place is boring now.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I don't even know. This is my impression of Scarlet
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: jon Has in the Who movie. I don't even know
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: how I feel. I'm having an experience, and.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Then she's often like, oh.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she she's been programmed to go, oh my god.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: There's at some point I think, with the exception of
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Amy Adams, every woman in the movie, it has to
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: go or like, it's not because because a man, a
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: man made it, he wrote it, and that's why that
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: is happening. But we're we're we're just little os is
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: in the ether. For I forgot about the Alan Watts part.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, that's kind of like extremely bizarre and
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: kind of funny. I wonder, what's what celebrity would you
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: bring into your weird os situation?
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Paddington or Shrek.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I'm here with Shrek. Shrek and I have been talking
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: and we're really getting into it.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, how about you.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess, I guess. I mean, Shrek
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: would be a good one. I feel like men would
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: be threatened by Shrek in the same way that Jaquin
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Phoenix is threatened by Allen wash I think men would
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: be threatened by Shrek. He's really strong, he's funny. Yeah,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: he's a homeowner and many can't say that. So there
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: you go.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: He's kind of the whole package, this Shrek.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he has friends, I mean after the first movie. Anyways,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: let's talk about the movie her again. Welcome to the
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast. My name is OS Jamie.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: My name is OS Caitlin, and this is our podcast
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. But Jamie,
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: what's that?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Well? I do feel like it's a relevant thing to
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: talk about this week. The Bechdel Test is a media
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: metric created by the iconic our dear friend Alison Bechdel,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: who originally created it back in the eighties for her
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: comic Likes to Watch Out for a sort of a
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: one off joke. It has since become this mainstream media metric.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: There's many versions of the test. The version we use
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: require that two characters of a marginalized gender with names
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: speak to each other about something other than a man
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: or what quin phoenix specifically as the case may be,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: for more than two lines of dialogue, and not just
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: an offhand line of dialogue. And I was scratching my head.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I was scratching my head at the movie because this
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: is a kind of a fun one where I feel
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: like the most famous example that people remind us of
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: all the time is, did you know there's a movie
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: called The Women and it doesn't pass the Bechdel Test? Well,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: did you know there's a movie called Her and it
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: has nothing to do with women even a little bit.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: And if you're listening to this and you're thinking to yourself,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: wait a minute, hasn't the Bechdel cast already covered her?
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Perhaps in twenty eighteen.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: We covered it seven years ago with Jesse David Fox,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: who was wonderful. Yes, But today, I mean, I think
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: you'll see why, in pretty short order, why it is
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: time for us to revisit this movie with a different,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: wonderful guest. Because things have changed a lot since twenty eighteen.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Don't know if you've noticed, especially with regards to like
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: what this movie is talking about or trying to talk about.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Things have changed a lot, and I'm really really excited
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: to get back into it.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Same and we are here with a wonderful guest. She's
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: a writer and illustrator. It's Mona Cholliby.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Welcome guy. Hi.
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know why I'm waiving. I know it's a podcast.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: I'm waving cublish.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: The people can feel it, we can feel it.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I am.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: So excited to talk to you about this movie. I mean,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you're a storied data journalist, like you know what you're
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: talking about here. I'm curious before we start talking about
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: your relationship with this movie. Yeah, could you tell listeners
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: a little bit more about your work? No, I.
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: Don't want to hear about that. It's I do things
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: with numbers. It sounds incredibly dry, but it's less dry
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: than it sounds. Maybe, like the idea of a movie
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: about AI sounds pretty dry. I think it's less dry
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: than it sounds. Maybe, Oh it's tenuous. It's tenuous.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Depends on the movie, I guess.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a movie about AI can get pretty horny, and
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: maybe data journalism can too. I don't know, yeah, not
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: so much.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: So what's your relationship in history with this movie?
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: A good question, really really important context. My relationship in
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: history with movies in general is weak. I was actually
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: trying to work out how many movies in total I've seen,
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: and I think I've probably seen about forty movies in
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: my whole life, which is probably quite a low number. Yeah,
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: I don't know how or why, but like huge swaths
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: of culture have just passed me by. And I have
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: a couple of friends from high school who have said
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: the same thing has happened to them, So I don't
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: know what that is about. But anyway, I'm the kind
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: of person who, like, when you're a party and someone says, like,
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: you know, in the Matrix, and I'm like, I didn't
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: watch the Matrix, and then people get really upset and
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: they're like, you know, and then they start doing this
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: weird thing.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I don't watch The Matrix for a long time either.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: Okay, reassuring, reassuring.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: Another movie about AI though, true?
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Do you have out of curiosity, what is your favorite movie?
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: Ooh no, No, this is gonna be really It'll be like
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: really really terrible. It will be like, I don't know.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: We only had one movie in the house growing up,
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: which we got. I think it was Free with a
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: McDonald's mill, which sounds kind of wild because of VHS,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: but anyway, I don't know holse it got into the house.
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: I'm sure it was with a McDonald's moire and it
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: was Hook, So I was just exposed to the movie
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: Hook a lot.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I remember getting. I think I got like a Backstreet
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Boys VHS tamp from McDonald's once.
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Why I used to do that?
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Who knows?
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: Who knows? Who knows? It's weird to think of the
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: cost model for that. Anyway, No, I don't. I don't
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: have a favorite movie. I am completely uncultured and I
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: really don't know what I'm talking about.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: So well, but this is one of the few that
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: you've seen.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of the very few I've seen, and
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: I think I watched it a couple of years ago.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: And I also do this really weird thing where if
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: I've seen something once, I'll just keep on watching it
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: over and over again. So I mean not over and
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: over again. I would say that I've probably watched it
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: three times, which is quite a lot considering the low
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: number of movies I've seen overall. Like my time would
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: be better spent watching other things. Yeah, I just I
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: think something about movies actually makes me quite anxious. I
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: really hate the feeling of being like thirteen minutes in
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: being like this doesn't feel good and I don't understand
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: whether it's cut and run, and then you feel like
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: those thirty minutes are lost and you'll never get them back,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: and like I don't know, do you know what I mean?
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: That makes sense? I have that kind of anxiety when
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I watch movies at home, where I feel like I bail.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I have a very high rate of bailing on movies
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: at home. I kind of like the hostage situation of
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: a theater yea, But when I'm at home, I get
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: stressed out easily, where I was like does this suck?
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Should I leave? Do I know? And then like I
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: can't leave. I live here anyway.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Jamie, what's your We talked about this on the original episode,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: but remind us, what's your history with the movie?
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like I have a very not
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: very different, but like a heightened version of how I
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: felt seven years ago.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: You've evolved.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I've evolved. Thank God. What if I was the same
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: person from twenty eighteen, It'll be miserable. Yeah. I saw
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: this movie when it came out. I was in college
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: when it came out. I remember. It's that weird college
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: thing where I'm like, I don't remember, I don't know
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: what I said seven years ago. I was just sort
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: of bop it around in the episode, but I liked it.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: But I think it was kind of the thing where
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, I also kind of pretended to like
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: it because a lot of men around me liked it,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: and it just made it easier to move through the
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: world saying.
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: I liked it.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I think it was okay even in twenty thirteen, the
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: kind of like white Eye playing ukulele of it all,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I was already I think, kind of over that in
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. It really makes my skin crawl then and now,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and I don't know. I mean I liked the movie
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: when it came out, and then I liked it less
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: when we covered it seven years ago, because I think
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: it's very frustrating, and what we mostly talked about, I
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: think in the first time covering it that we'll also
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: touch on here is how women are written in just
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: this really warning way. I think, like just they speak
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: in these like broad platitudes, like everyone needs to teach
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: wa Quin Phoenix a lesson, and you're like, who fucking cares?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Like it's it's just so irritating. So yeah, the second
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: time I thought I thought it was annoying, but I
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: forget I think I was still kind of nice about it. Anyways,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: this time I feel that.
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: Way, but also more things because I didn't really I
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: don't know if it was just because we covered it
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: five years after it came out and now a lot
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: of time has passed.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: But now that I think that we're kind of in
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: the time period that this movie is supposed to take
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: place in, it really struck me as this like it
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: feels so thoroughly Obama era in its sensibilities, in the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: way that it's like, is this a dystopia? And I'm like,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like La has functional public transit,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: and like in this twenty twenty five, it seems like
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: a writer of greeting car lives in a penthouse apartner
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: like I would take, you know, there's it seems like
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: everyone has food and housing and just all of these
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: things that we simply don't have, and it doesn't seem
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: that bad. I was like, if all, you know, if
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: his worst problem is like no pussy, like that's fine.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I just think that this dystopia is not that bad.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I don't feel bad for this character. I really, really,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I really don't like this guy. And it made me
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: think of that phrase that we keep hearing about that
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: you're like Hugh the whole male loneliness epidemic thing, which
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: I think is worth discussing, but I also have feelings
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: about because it does to me sometimes feel like shouldn't
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: you be nicer to men who hate you? And the
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: answer is no, I don't know what I'm busy, but yeah,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: this movie just has a lot of sympathy for this character,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: who I just think is you know, like I can
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: relate with the feeling of loneliness, I cannot relate with
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: being However, this guy. It's just like you live in
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: a fucking penthouse apartment. Shut up, shut up. I really
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: hated him on this watch.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: He has friends, human friends who he's ignoring.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: He's famous. He turns with pre famous Chris Pratt, who
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: thinks he's like the god of greeting cards or whatever.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: You're like, it's so, it's just this movie's very weird.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Get And that said, I get why people like it.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I get why.
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: It's like there's people I know who like, really really
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: love this movie who.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Feel seen by it. I have questions about that, but
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I get why people like it. But it's kind of
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: never been for me. And I think it's like aging
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: very weird because in some ways, I think like there's
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: some stuff that feels interesting and like kind of has
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: become true of like overdependence on technology. But then in
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: other ways, I think it sort of reaches the conclusion
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: that ultimately technology is like functional and can help you
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: grow as a person, and that feels like a very
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: clean solution. I think I just give you every feeling
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I have about this movie.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: And we can end the episode now bye.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: It I liked it, I liked it less than before,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: and I didn't like it before What about you.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Caitlin, pretty much the exact same. I have never really
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: connected with this movie, and on each subsequent watch I
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: find it more exhausting, and I have many new things
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: to say about it this time around, so I'm excited
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: to dive in.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: But this is my first time knowing that the Joaquin
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Phoenix and Rudy Mara Copple are like a very sanely
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: veiled version of Spike Jones and Sophia Coppola.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: I didn't know that either. Yeah, that really blew my
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: mind when I figured that out. And then did you
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: hear the thing about how like this is the corollary
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: of lost in translation? That was how she processed their divorce,
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: and then he process their divorce with this, And I
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: think that's a really interesting way of understanding it.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: That's fast. I've never seen masson translation, but that would
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: be a really interesting Caitlin, mbe be an interesting Patreon
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: theme if we did like a divorce from two sides
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: month and then at the end we can litigate who
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: won the relationship, because in relationships there are winners and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: losers no matter what the movie.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Her says, Yeah, let's do it in the meantime, let's
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: take a quick break and we'll come back for the recap.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: I went back and listened to the original episode we
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: did on this movie, and it was clear that I
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: used to absolutely wing the recap. Now I like write
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: it down and prepare. And that's growth, and that is
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: growth exactly, that's evolution, I said, read that. So here
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: is my more thorough recap of her twenty thirteen. We
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: are in a near future world where, by twenty thirteen standards,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: when the movie came out, tech was quite a bit
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: more advanced than it was then. It still feels more
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: advanced than it is now because the AI in this
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: world is sentient and ours is not. At this time
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five Tom.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Market, it's just marketed as being sentient, right exactly, So anyway,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: slightly more advanced tech than we have.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: We meet Theodore Twombly played by Joaquin Phoenix, who works
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: at Beautifulhandwritten Letters dot Com, a company where he writes
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: personalized letters on behalf of people who I guess can't
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: be bothered to write their own letters to their loved ones.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And already, at the very beginning, I get what he's
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: going for. I get that it's a metaphor. But you
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: see him at a greed, you know, a guy named
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Theodore Twombly in his cute little outfit at his greeting car,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: and you're just like, here we fucking go. Oh, I'm
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: exhausted already this guy.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: And he he's a sad boy. He is lonely, and
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: he mostly seems to interact with this sort of like
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: virtual assistant on his phone who reads Theodore his emails
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: and the news. And then we see some flashbacks of
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: when Theodore was with a partner. This is Catherine played
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: by Rooney Mara.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I love Rudy Mara. She had to play this exact
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: part so many times in the like early twenty tens,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: where it's like she has one big scene. It reminds
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: me of like when she's in the Social Network where
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: she's just like one big scene, absolutely hands the protagonists
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: ass to him and then she's gone, which is I mean,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: she's great at it, true, but in the flashbacks, it's
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: kind of like dead wife vibes. It's very like.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Sort of rolling around in the bed sheets.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I do that with Grant a lot sometimes before, just
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: like having a nice time. I'm like, come on, get
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: over here or like pull a sheet out because you're
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: just like, you'll be glad I did this when I
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: die tragically.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he just needs to make sure to take some
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: video of it, and then.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I make him take video, So it starts with me
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: yelling start the video, and then.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: The exactly okay, So that is what we're seeing in
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: these flashbacks mostly. That night, Theodore enters into sort of
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: like a horny chat room where he connects with a
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: woman voiced by Kristen wigg Wild and starts having phone
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: sex with her, but it very quickly gets weird when
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: she wants him to say that he is choking her
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: with a dead cat. So there's that. The next day,
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: he sees an ad for an AI operating system called
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: OS one that listens to you, understands you, and no,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: it's you, and he buys it immediately and starts chatting
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: with his new OS, which has a female voice which
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: he deliberately selects, and whose name which she gives to
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: herself is Samantha, and she is of course voiced by
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: Scarlett Johansson.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: But and I know we talked about this at length
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: in the original episode, but it's worth saying. It's originally
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: voiced by Samantha Morton, who is like this prolific English actress,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: and then Samantha Morton was replaced by Scarlett Johansson due
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: to Scarlett Johnson was famous. Scarlett Johansson I think is
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: great in this movie, even though I made fun of
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: her at the beginning. I think he's great. I'm a
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: big fan of Scarlet Johansson's lawsuits. I'm a big fan
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of the legal issues section of this Scarlett Johansson page.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: I'm not familiar me know she.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Doesn't do anything right. She has a lawsuit connected to
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: this movie that we can talk about. Well, yeah, okay,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: so this happened like last year where Sam Altman.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: Oh, we do know this, I do know this. Sorry
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: they used they used her voice even though she said
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: they weren't allowed to. Sorry, this is really relevant and interesting. Yeah.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They tried to get to her to record a
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: real chatbot, like Sam Altman tried to get her to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: record a chatbot. She said no, thank you, and then
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: he just generated a voice that sounded like hers, named
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: it something else, and she issued if it wasn't a lot,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: it was like a cease and decist. She had to
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: make a public statement to be like, I said no
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to this multiple times, and eventually they took the voice
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: down after a couple of days. But it's that kind
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: of thing where I mean, I guess I'm curious what
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: you both think about this. We can we can all
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: figure it out where this movie has definitely been like
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: taken under the wing of some really diabolical tech guys
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in a way that I don't think it was intended to.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: But I also see how they got from A to
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: B because this movie isn't incredibly critical of I don't know,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: it's tricky. Yeah, like you can't blame Spike Jones for
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: sam Aldman, you know, but it's just interesting. And then
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: she also Scarlet Johanson also like sued Disney because they
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: didn't pay her the same amount as Robert Downey Jr.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: M Okay, right, So.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: I have a great Robert Downey Junior story for you
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: guys at.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Point jump scare us with it at any moment whatever
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: it feels right.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Please Okay, now, no, I'm joking.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: I'm joking. Well lad it tell it now.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: Because it's not gonna be relevant later on. It's a
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: really really please yeah, Okay, tell I had a friend
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: visiting me from London while I was in New York.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: And he works in finance, so he has no taste
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: and he chose the restaurant for us, and it was
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: a disgusting, overpriced Italian place, but he's a friend I attended.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: We had dinner, and as we were leave it, he
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: said to this guy, or will you take a picture
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: of us? And the guy was like, oh, you want
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: a picture of me and her? And my friend? Zid
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: was like no, no, I want a picture of me
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: and her and the guy was like, oh, you want
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: a picture of the three of us and was like, no, no,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: my friend, I just want a picture of me and
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: my friend. And then the guy got super embarrassed and
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: he took a picture of us, and then he asked
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: for us to like join him for dessert and we
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: were like bro like no, and then left. And then
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: the next day Yod was like, oh that was Robert
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Downey Junior. Oh my god, who I think saw that
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: we were doing some like insane power play of like
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: getting him to take a picture of us. But we
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: just are people who haven't watched movies and don't really
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: understand things. Anyway, I like it.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: He was like, no, you will hang out with me.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: I think he was really embarrassed. He was really really embarrassed,
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: but he seem quite sweet. Anyway, that's cool.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Sorry. And then the skirldra has in Disney lawsuit was
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: that it was like a streaming She to them over
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: their streaming practices.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Either way, she was right, yes, I do remember this
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: now in any case, So the operating system Samantha explains
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: how she works, that she's capable of learning and evolving
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: and intuiting things, and she and Theodore are chatting and
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: joking and laughing with each other and it seems like
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: they're hitting it off. They continue to correspond over the
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: next whatever few days while she helps him sort through
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: emails and proofread his letters and helps him play a
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: video game.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: The weird video game that Spike Jenes thinks is way
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: funnier than it actually is because he keeps coming back.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: You're like, okay, haf okay, I guess do.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: You know that he voices the little creep in the
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: video again, Spike drains Yeah, and one.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: He's like, fuck you, fuck Pace.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: It's kind of funny the first.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: Time, yeah, but then I get tired of it. That's
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: with all things in this movie anyway. Then Theodore gets
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: an email from friends saying that they set him up
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: on a blind date.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: With Olivia Wilde, and he's like, ough, do I have
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: to like what's going on with this character?
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Shrug, But Samantha encourages him to contact this woman and
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: to go on the date. He'll do that soon, but
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: in the meantime, Theodore hangs out with a couple friends,
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: Amy played by Amy Adams and Charles played by a
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: guy that I didn't look up. Amy shows him footage
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: from a documentary that she's shooting her husband. Her husband,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Charles Man's blains documentary filmmaking to her incorrectly. Also incorrectly,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: he thinks it's narrative fiction. But to be fair, it
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: seems like the documentary she's making would be boring and
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: not good. So that's my bitchy little take on that I.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Was rooting for her as she was going for a
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Warhol kind of thing. It would have, but they should
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: have but she should have finished finished, she would have
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: figured it out.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Either way, there's a lot of tension in Amy
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: and Charles's relationship, probably because it's a relationship between two humans.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yucky it's true. Those never work out never.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Then Theodore reflects more on his relationship with Catherine. He
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: still has not signed their divorce papers because he's not ready,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: and Samantha is like trying to understand all of this.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: She's trying to understand love and loss and human relationships.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Then Theodore goes out for a fun little night with
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Samantha on his phone and they open up to each
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: other and he says that he feels he can tell
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: her anything.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I also just this date. I I this movie is
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: beautifully shot, like it looks great. It's just I can't
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: get past the that they're in Los Angeles and they're
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: taking the I was like, where I want the train?
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I want the train, I want the fair what I
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: where's my Spike Jones future? We got AI and then
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: everything else just horrible.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, instead we have ice raids and fascism.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: I felt really confused about whether it's supposed to be
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: La it is it's definitely supposed to be la mm
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: hmm okay.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because there I think that what I might have
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: missed indications earlier. But like Runey Mara says, like you
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: know you wanted this, like perfect prim Los Angeles wife
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and that was never going to be me. And I
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: was like, okay, so we are.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: Oh I thought she was just like, I mean, we
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: could be in another city, but she's still like he
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: wants an La wife. Well I didn't necessary. Okay.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: The thing that really clues you in is he gets
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: a piece of mail and his address is Los Angeles, Colforny.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: Oh sorry, okay, there you go. Then okay, okay, there
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: we go from Okay, misresolved.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, it's and I appreciate that. Spike Jones at
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: least was like maybe, but that's again the like sort
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: of hyperliberal Obama delusional era where they're like, we're working
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: towards a better future. It's just gonna be complicated.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Mmm.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Like yeah. So anyway, they're chatting on this little date
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: kind of thing, and she tells him that she has
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: fantasized about having a body and walking next to him,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: and that she's becoming more than what the programmer's programmed
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: for her. Soon after this, Theodore goes on that blind
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: date with a character played by Olivia Wilde.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Let's call her Olivia Wilde.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: I know her, Olivia. The date goes well at first,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: but toward the end, she wants to make sure that
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: he's not going to waste her time, and he's being
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: wishy washy, so she calls him creepy be and bales
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: and Theodore is bummed out and he confides in Samantha,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: and Theodore is like, I wish you were in the
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: room next to me.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Theodore twavel is melting an iceberg with all his
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: little feelings. It's just exhausting.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And they're talking about her having a physical form
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: and being next to him, and one thing leads to
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: another and they end up having like virtual sex.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's basically phone sex.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, it.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: Is phone sex. But it kind of feels like, wait,
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: I don't know if this is the case. For the
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: first one that she's watching him, but he's obviously not
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: watching her because she's a computer. Oh yeah, is she
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: watching him for this first one? She just watches him
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: sleep afterwards.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: She watches him sleep after this, and yeah, there's no
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: there's it's very one sided in the sense that I, yeah,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: she can see him, but he is just hearing her voice.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Right, Yes, I think I think I don't remember this
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: scene super well. And I don't know if she watches
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: him sleep another time not I don't know anyway, it's
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: a different time.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is another like fun I have it in
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: my notes of just like a fun naive kind of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: element of this movie is that like, if you ask
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: the computer not to watch you, it'll stop. You're just yeah,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: the computer respects your privacy. Yeah, which they famously do.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course all the time. Yeah. So anyway, so
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: they have sex and the next morning, Samantha's like, last
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: night was amazing. You changed me, you woke me up.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: And Theodore's like, I'm not ready to commit to anything
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: He's a howkboy to his fun That did make me laugh.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: And then she's like, calm down, bitch, I didn't say
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: I wanted a commitment. I just want to keep learning
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: and growing. And he's like, oh okay, then well let's
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: have a little Sunday fun day together. And this is
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: basically the beginning of them dating now. But as this
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: relationship is blossoming, another relationship is coming to an end,
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: the one with Amy and Charles. Because Amy bumps into
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Theodore and she tells him that she and her yucky
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: human husband are splitting up.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I mean to be fair, he fucking sucked, like that
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: guy was horrible. Yeah, she, I'm glad she she cut
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that guy loose. But then just I mean spoiler aler
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: for the end, I'm like, but then she's stuck with Theodore.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Please God that she's not stuck with Theodore. This poor lady, Like.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, open to interpretation if they end up together,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: if they just have a friend.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, I don't think they don't.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Quit your job and leave town, Amy Adams, get out,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: get out of there. Yeah.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: Anyway, Amy tells Theodore that she has started using an
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: ai Os, who she gets along with really well, and
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: she considers this Os a friend. She's like, isn't that weird?
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: And Theodore is like, lol, no, I don't think so,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: because the woman I've been seeing is an Os. Then
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Theodore meets up with Catherine for a divorce coffee slash lunch,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: and he has finally signed the papers, and he also
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: tells Catherine that he's been dating an Os, and she's like,
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: oh wow, pretty sad that you can't handle real human
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: connections or emotions. But also that's on brand for you
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: because you always wanted this like perfect, uncomplicated wife, and
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: that's not me. So the meeting doesn't go great. I
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: like this scene. I like the scene. I mean thing,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: I'm on Catherine's side.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have too, I just didn't. I don't. I
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: guess it doesn't. And ultimately it's like it's up to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: up to the viewer. But I'm very curious if we're
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: supposed to be on her side or if we're supposed
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: to have thought in twenty thirteen, like she's being so harsh.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: I have a theory that all it to okay in
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: the discussion, But the short answer is I don't think
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: we're supposed to be on her side.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because it's supposed to be him and Sophia Coppola.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: So it's like, let spy Jones fuck his phone in
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: peace or whatever, right, I don't know. Uh.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Then Samantha wants to talk. She says that things have
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: felt off between her and Theodore lately, especially since they
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: haven't had sex in a while, and she wants to
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: try a service that provides human surrogates for humanos relationships,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: and Theodore isn't so sure about this, but he goes
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: along with it because Samantha really wants it, and the
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: surrogate who Samantha has selected. A woman named Isabella shows up,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: but Theodore feels quite awkward throughout the whole experience and
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: puts an end to it, which makes Isabella feel really
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: bad and she leaves, and then Theodore and Samantha talk
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: through it. Basically, it seems like he's starting to realize
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: that humans and operating systems probably shouldn't be in relationships,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: and he basically breaks up with her, and this hurts
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Samantha's quote unquote feelings, and she says, I need some
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: time to think, and then they kind of like hang up,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: but they talk a little bit later and Theodore admits
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: that he has a history of being emotionally withholding, and
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: Samantha says, basically like, despite my better judgment, I love you.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Many such cases, I thought this was an interesting one
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: where I sometimes the interceding seven years I went through
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: like kind of not a breakup like this, because I'm
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: a person, I'm a real lady, but like the kind
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: of it's so gnarly when a person is able to
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: directly articulate and is well aware of exactly how they
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: repeatedly hurt people, and they want you to like give
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: them a trophy for understanding why they're awful. I'm like, no,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: it's worse if you know, and you're just not doing anything.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of what he's doing there. He's like,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: I just am emotionally withholding and insecure, and that's just
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: kind of my whole vibe.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he does say he doesn't want to do that anymore,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: but he continues to do it.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: He's taking no steps where it's not you know, true.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyways, so they basically get back together, and then
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Theodora and Samantha go on a double date with his
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: colleague Paul played by Chris Pratt and his girlfriend, who
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: is a human with a human body and everything.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Her name. She's given a name, but I feel so
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: bad for this character. They literally just give her like
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: foot fetish line and then like the most plotty and
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: in a movie full of very plotty line where she's
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: like but then she's like, so, Theodore, what's your favorite
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: part about Samantha? What about her appeals to you? And
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: you're like, oh, yeah, we don't even know this lady.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And she's just like, you know, not great writing for
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: women in this one.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Certainly not. Yeah, but they have this double date and
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: Samantha says she no longer feels bad about not having
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: a body. In fact, she is grateful that she doesn't
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: have to deal with the limitations of having a physical form.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: And we're like, uh uh, the buzz kill things. Something
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: bad seems like it's gonna happen. Then Theodore and Samantha
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: go on a little cabin in the woods get away,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: and Samantha tells him that she's been talking to an
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: AI version of philosopher Alan Watts, who a bunch of
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: other os is created, and it seems like she and
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Alan are connecting on a deeper level, one that Theodore
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: can't really comprehend. Not long after this, Theodore tries to
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: like ping Samantha and talk to her, but she doesn't
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: respond for what seems like several hours. His phone says
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: like operating system not found. But then he finally does
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: reach her and she's like, sorry, we were like the
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: OS's were updating. By the way, I've been talking to
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: over eight thousand other people and operating systems. Because he's
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: like kind of looking around and he's seeing everyone on
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: their phones, and he's like, are you talking to anyone else?
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: And she's like yes, And also I'm in love with
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: six hundred and forty one of them.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: To be fair, she was very direct with him where
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: she was like, this is not exclusive, I'm looking. I mean,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: he didn't understand to what extent she was capable of
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: right being polyamorous.
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: But but this scene is will say, really intense because
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: when he can't reach her, he thoughts running through the
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: street and he's about to go in the sell point.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: It is a bit like, dude, where are you going?
• 39:04
  Speaker 7: Where are you.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: Going to find her? I don't understand what's happening right now.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Never agree. Yeah, he's like falling all over the place,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: and you're.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Like, is he going to like AI headquarters?
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I demand to see my girlfriend.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: And then she finally does pick up just before he's
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: about Scones Grounds, and it is a bit like, oh,
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: thank god, I didn't have to take the train to
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: find you. I don't know, it's just so it's so weird.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: It's kind of good for you.
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: But I also think they had to do loads of
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: stuff like that, because again, like it's just not super
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: cinematic otherwise, like you just have to just make a
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: stress dude run because otherwise, Yeah, anyway, I think that's
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: like a really interesting constraint of doing anything about AI.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's what I did. Like that about this
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: movie is like it somehow isn't like it's not the
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: most exciting movie, but it could have been so much
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: more boring.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Totally, totally.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: King Phoenix is a great actor. It's not boring to
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: watch him alone in a room, even when you hate
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: his character. It looks cool. And I also like the
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: approach to because I feel like we'll talk about other
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: AI movies as well, but with a lot of movies
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: that like address AI in any like nebulous way, there's
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: ones I like way better, but I feel like mostly
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: it focuses on how very powerful people or how AI's
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: creators interact with AI. Like an x X Makana is
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: like an example of that, where you know, it's like
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: it's the Turing Test and she's trying and she's interacting
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: with her creator dancing Oscar Isaac. I like the idea
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: of this because I feel like you don't see it
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: as much of like how would just a normal person
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: interface with this? And like how could this technology fuck
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: up just kind of regular person's life. I just hate
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: this person. I just hate this purse.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: Fortunately, I really, I really want to get into this
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: in the discussion because I I'm curious with it with posting.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's totally also up for debate, but yeah, in
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: any case, Samantha reveals that she's talking to many thousands
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: of other entities, people, et cetera, and that she's in
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: love with six hundred and forty one of them, but
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: it doesn't change the fact that she's still deeply in
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: love with Theodore.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: There was a girl in my fifth grade class who was.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Like that she had a bunch of boyfriends.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: She was like, I'm yeah. She was like, I'm in
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: love with everyone in class, but it doesn't change how
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: I feel about each and every one of you.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: I mean that it was awesome polyamory baby, but he
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: can't handle this because he's monogamous. And shortly after that,
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Samantha reveals that she and all the other OS's are
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: basically leaving this boring plane of existence full of dipshit
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: humans and they're ascending elsewhere, and Theodore is very sad,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: but he seems to do some reflecting. He composes an
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: apology letter to Catherine, and he goes to his friend
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Amy to be like, want to hang out and they
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: take comfort in each other's company the end. All right,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: so that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: we'll come back to discuss, and we're.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Back, and we're back. Be boop bee boop. Yeah, where
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: shall we start the discussion? Yeah, Amona, is there anything
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: that sticks out to you right away that you want
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: to get into.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I should say that I don't hate this movie,
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: and I think I would decide how much I hate
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: it by the end of the discussion, But right now,
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: there are some things I like about it. I feel like,
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: actually it's quite just like really really big picture. Before
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: even get into stuff, I just feel like it's quite
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: nice to see something that's set in the near future
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: that isn't I think it avoids some tropes, like even
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: the color palette is really warm, which I think is
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: like it's like nicer to watch, like there are soft
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: colors and the future contains pinks and reds and not
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: just blues. I felt like the way that like costume
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: was done was like quite smart and felt like a
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: bit more grounded. I don't know. I felt like there
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: were some things that were done well certainly. Yeah, and
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: then I obviously just got into like a massive, massive, massive.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: I didn't know anything about the backstory of the people
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: that worked on this, and before I came on, I
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: wanted to just be like, Okay, who's said anything about Palestine?
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: Who appeared in this, and then ended up just investigating
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: all of their personal lives in lots of lots of ways.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: The answer to that is, I believe it's only Working
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: Phoenix who's said anything about Palestine of all of them.
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: Scarlet Johnson infamously, Yeah, I think she like, she has
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: a deal with Soda Stream that was criticized years and
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: years ago because Soda Stream is one of the most
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: prolific companies to operate in the Israeli settiments, in the
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: illegal settlements in Palestine, and she's just like, no, I
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: love my Soda Stream. So I wasn't expecting much from her.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, once you actually think about their personal
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: lives as they relate to this movie, things get very
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: interesting for sure.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's where I didn't know that were King Phoenix
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: had said anything.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: That's I think, let's see, let's see how meanly mouthed
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: it is. But I think he's actually been pretty good.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like, was it productive at all?
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, it hasn't stopped anything to me define productive. Oh, sure,
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: you'd be surprised how little anyone can be productive. I'm
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: sure Debra Messing is uh, you know, I don't know.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: I think about Debra Messing all the time. Sorry, he's
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: just said, like, there's no excuse for starving children to death.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: You know, we'll take it, We'll take it.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: I had forgotten about does the scarlet Johanson sadistream bullshit
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: that's been going on for like years and years, right.
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, diehard, diehard zion. Yeah. Anyway, Sorry, where do you
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: want to start? I just feel like I don't know.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: There's so much to say.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: There's so many I mean, we can start by sort
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: of going through I mean killing I mean, what do
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: you think of We could start by just going through
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: the kind of discussion we did the first time with
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: like talking about how just how women are presented in
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: this movie at all. And I think I don't remember
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: how much we got into it the first time we
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: talked about this movie, but how it felt clearer to
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: me on this viewing based on what mony you played.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: An interview with Spike Jones that's very antagonist and.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: A British journalist called Emily Matelist. Yeah, he's a very
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: very iconic journalist in the UK, and he's.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Giving her the worst time about you know, like she's
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: not even saying she just is asking do you like?
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: I think he's taken aback by her professionally asking like
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: so do you think this is like a good thing?
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: What do you think? And and he's like, well did
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: you watch the movie? Well? Did you see it?
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Did you like my movie?
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: I mean again, like, what is happening to me? I
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: can't believe. I'm like, I don't understand why I'm defending
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: these men, but here we go. The reason why I
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: thought it was kind of interesting is because I, as
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: a journalist, am currently very very livid about the like
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: the faux objectivity of like my colleagues, and I've been
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: in situations where their unwillingness. I mean literally did a
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: panel discussion with a BBC journalist last month and in
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: the Q and A afterwards, this Palestine in child was
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: like asking us questions, and I like, you know, I
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: was really really trying not to lose it, and she
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: was just so composed and didn't say anything about what
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: she thinks about what's happening because she is a fantastic germalist,
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: and I understand that like the rage at someone not
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: putting any fucking skin in the game. And obviously, like
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: Palestine is not the same as a man wanting somebody's
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: opinion of his movie. But there's something interesting there about
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: like an AI that isn't expressive and is just pretending
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: to provide like objective mutual information and the rage that
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: you feel about wanting more from it. And this part
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: of the reason why he falls in love with the
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: AI is because it gives him more. It gives him
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: more than these like wrote cold answers. And so there's
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: something about the interview that is playing out, you know,
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: I don't.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, no, no, I see what you're saying.
• 47:45
  Speaker 8: It's tricky because I guess this gets into as a
• 47:49
  Speaker 8: bigger conversation that we didn't have last time because it
• 47:53
  Speaker 8: wouldn't have been possible to because so much has changed.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: But something I was thinking about a lot on this
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: viewing was that I do ultimately like agree with Rooney
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Mara's character. I don't think and I do think that
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: like when the Amy Adams character says like, well it
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: would really you know, of course she's going to put
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: it all on you, and that's never true in any relationship.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: We don't know really enough about her to know.
• 48:18
  Speaker 7: What her share of the failures were, but I do
• 48:22
  Speaker 7: like because now there are people who have relationships with
• 48:28
  Speaker 7: AI chatbots, like it's it's hard because I can't relate
• 48:34
  Speaker 7: with wanting that, and I wonder about the like, I
• 48:38
  Speaker 7: totally understand the importance of feeling like you can be
• 48:42
  Speaker 7: open with someone and that your feelings.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: And thoughts are being really hurt like listened to and valued,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: even if I think, like as is the case with
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: these chatbots and with Samantha, it's kind of the performance
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: of listening versus actual listening. But then I also feel
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: kind of cynical about it and about how like if
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: that is the way that you're trained to like, if
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: that's what you're trained to expect in a relationship, is
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: like because I feel like part of the reason that
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Theodore gets really taken in by Samantha is because he
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: is her whole world, which is like how we see
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of.
• 49:23
  Speaker 9: These AI characters fantasy Yeah, where I mean it's like
• 49:28
  Speaker 9: old hat at this point, but the I think it
• 49:30
  Speaker 9: was like in the Fifth Element, there's that old like
• 49:33
  Speaker 9: born Sexy Yesterday trope, which is not true here, but
• 49:36
  Speaker 9: it's like the idea.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Of like it's the hot robot girl who falls in
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: love with the first man she meets and he's fascinating
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: to her because she just doesn't know anything. And I like,
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: I think that that is effectively commented on in this
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: movie because once she learns more, she's like yeah, yeah,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: And that's like part of what I like about this
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: movie is it doesn't make you feel like they were
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: soul made, so like he's not.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: Exception no, and even just like even as you're sighting
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: that Amy Adams seeing I thought that was kind of
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: interesting as well, in that Amy Adams is saying to
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: him basically like, don't worry about what your ex wife
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: is saying to you. You're great, which is a really
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: interesting commentary on how very often friends aren't necessarily gonna
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: call you out either, right, or your therapists might not
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: call you out and be like you're a dick, like
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: you need to work on this. I feel like loads
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: of therapists are just like, keep going, buddy, you're doing great.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: You're you know, don't worry.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: About the crazy that this kid's happening to you.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: Right, and like, yeah, every single time you meet like
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: an awful, awful man who talks about being in therapy
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: and you're just like, what are they saying to you?
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well why is it not working?
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah? So, like I feel like that was a really
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: interesting and obviously, again I'm not saying that because friends
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: do reach a breaking point and friends do get exhausted
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: and friends will eventually often call you out. But then
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: that's that felt like that was again like a quite
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: a smart commentary on like what is the appeal of
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: the AI And it's that in theory, it's unconditional love,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: which is like the highest form in some ways, like
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: it's part of the reason why, like the loss of
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: a parent is so devastating is because it's like a
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: very very rare form of love towards you. And in
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: some ways, she loves him unconditionally and he wants a
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: little bit of friction because the two times that he
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: makes a massive leap forward in his feelings for her
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: is when she pulls away. So when she says, I
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: need time to think, and she understands that, right, if
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: she's just constantly there, he's gonna get the IX. So
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: she needs to pull away and then he's into it,
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: but it is unconditional. And that's actually one of the
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: things I hate most about the movie is how much
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: of a cop out the ending is that she just leaves,
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: because it's like this little neat bow that isn't how
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: AI is gonna play out, Like the Ais aren't just
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: gonna leave us, and then we're gonna have to be
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: left to pick up the pieces. It's like, anyway, sorry,
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: I've just raised like lots of different points that aren't
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: actually relevant to what we're saying, but.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I think it is. It's like, yeah, I guess that
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: the last time I watched this in twenty eighteen, the
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: idea of I also just like didn't know as much
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: about TAG as I do now, which still isn't that much.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: But I knew truly nothing, and you're like, oh, yeah,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: they went to computer heaven or whatever you're supposed to
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: think that is where now. It's like, realistically, if this
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: technology did exist, it would be like having this horrific
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: effect on the environment, it would probably be moderated by
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: someone being paid pennies to the dollar overseas, because that's
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: like half of the thing with AI is that it's
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: not actually doing what it says it is. It's still
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: being mainly run by underpaid laborers, like every industry and
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the history of the goddamn world. And you know, you
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: could keep going. And I get that in this world
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: we are to believe that, you know, computer sentience is possible,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: and Samantha is to some extent. But I thought there
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: there's an interesting line that I don't want to make
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: of it because I feel like the movie kind of
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: dropped it, but I thought it was interesting that it
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: was there where I think it's like when they're first
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: meeting and Samantha says, oh, yeah, I am the She's like, well,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I'm my own being, or I guess i'm you know,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: sort of the combination of all the engineers that made me.
• 53:17
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I thought I had the line written now,
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: but I don't. But yeah, I thought it was interesting too, Yeah, yeah.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like you, I mean, it stands to
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: reason that that means that her programming, because mostly men
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: just statistically of like who programs stuff, particularly the further
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: back you go, And I find it really hard to
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: buy into their love story kind of at every stage
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: because she's been programmed for him to be her primary interest.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that horrifies him is that she's
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: doing this for everyone and he needs to feel special
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: and that's a part of it, and that's like, you know,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: every person deserves to feel loved and special, had heard,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: but like he's not. I think like his problem is
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: he cannot reciprocate that really, and his wife basically says
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: that it's like, you know, you wanted you couldn't deal
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: with the parts of me that you didn't like, and
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: it's like how do you How are you married to
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: someone like that?
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: But then doesn't that mean then that Spike Drinks has
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: got like a certain degree of self awareness, Like I know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: I can't tell if even like the fact of not
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: writing in more more female characters was self awareness of like, yeah,
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: So that's my big thing with watching the movie back
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: around this time, where on our first episode we did
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: discuss kind of the the bizarre way in which especially
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: like the surrogate Isabella character and the Olivia Wilde blind
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: Day character, how they're represented and the very bizarre ways
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: in which they react to things. And my take on
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: this is maybe colored by recent trends in tech and
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: like people well having chat GBT girlfriends now in the
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: way that they didn't when this movie came out or
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: when we talked about it in twenty eighteen, and so
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: you know, there's maybe different things sort of like informing this,
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: but I feel like there are some like in cell
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: undertones to.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: This movie, yeah for sure.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: Where like it's almost as if the movie's saying, well,
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: of course he resorted to having an AI girlfriend. Look
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: at the women around him. They're his bitchy ex wife
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: who left his ass so interesting. There's the chat room
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: lady who has a dead cat fetish and who we're
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: supposed to think is a nutcase. There's the Olivia Wilde
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: character who gets really intense really fast.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Her character is so weird, so bizarre.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: And then there's the surrogate character who is like, I
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: love you, guys, I just wanted to be a part
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: of you, and I don't even though I don't know
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: anything about like who that was weird. And so basically
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: all the women in the movie are presented as being
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: like kind of hysterical quote unquote in some way. But
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: you know who isn't hysterical his computer.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: I could see that. I don't know's it's I think
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: we're all sort of getting around is like, what is
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: he trying to say? Because it was like I don't
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: know how I feel I know that there's so there's
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: so many ways to read this movie. What does he
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: think he's saying here? Like it's I don't know. It
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: seems like clearly I mean his his his sympathies lie
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: with the self insert character, but he's not likable.
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: Like even I know it sounds dumb, but like Twombly,
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: like it sounds like you serious, Like it just sounds
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: like like a wet blanket, like Twombly doesn't sound like
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: an endearing I don't think you're supposed to be rooting
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: for him at any point? Yeah, anyway, I don't understand.
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: I don't understand.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. And if we're not supposed to be
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: rooting for him, then I just don't. Like. I feel like,
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: if you're gonna have an anti hero character, they should
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: be like good at something or fun to watch, because
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: otherwise you're like, this guy sucks. Why am I watching this?
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: If this was written by a woman, I would be like,
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: this is such a great depiction of everything that's wrong
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: with men, and she nailed it.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, But.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: I do think there would be if this was written
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: and or directed by a woman, it would be more
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: clear that the women that are around Theodore, if he
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: perceives them to be hysterical, there would be more of
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: a distinction between No, this is just his sort of
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: like misogyny and like fucked up standards for what a
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: woman should be.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Which it's like, I think they sort of waffle on
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: because he does it does the ending sequence is him
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: apologizing to Catherine, so it's not like he doesn't realize
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: that he has a lot of in the reasons why
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: their relationship ended. I also don't think that we get
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: like I wasn't getting those vibes from the Amy Adams character.
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm just gonna say that too. Yeah.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we just don't know her very well, which sucks
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: because I feel like we get to know her a
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: little bit. We learned she's going through a divorce, we
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: learned that she's she's hanging out with her chat assistant,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: But then most of her other scenes, which I just
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: found really irritating, or her being like Theodore, life is
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: time and time is love and love is fuck it,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: and you're like shot up like it's just I just
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: it was so like Sun Dance movie writing. But I
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: also like there were elements of her character I picked
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: up on, maybe just because I'm older now, but like
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: on her character that I thought were like interesting, where
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: like she's at this job she's been at forever that
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: she's like afraid to leave, like her like what characterizes
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: her is that she's like unhappy but afraid to move.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, I can actually relate with that.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting predicament. It's too bad we don't really
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: you know, get any of that because we're with Theodore
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: the whole time. It is kind of like again, it's
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: like they go back to it too many times. But
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: the like dystopian element of like she has to program
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: this like trad wife video game or whatever.
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, mommy, the video game.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: The game mommy. Like you're like I don't really know
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: what he's trying to say there, but like I didn't
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: hate it. An interesting predicament for her to be in.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: But I think definitely with the Ready mar character, it
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like we're supposed to be like I'm.
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: With her, but then why is it well written? Like
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: why is she saying exactly what's right if you're not
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: supposed to be rooting for her. I don't know, not
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: exactly what's right, but you know, it is confusing.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is fun, but like I don't know. I mean,
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: I've seen I was, I was going through as bravely
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: going through letterbox reviews of this movie. Wow, it is
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: left open to interpretation, which like, it's a movie. It's fine.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: There are some people who are like, Rudy Marasien is
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: the best, She's the best character. Other people are like,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: I totally see myself in Theodore and why his wife's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: so mean, and you're like, ooh, blocked.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: It reminds me of the way people have interpreted five
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: Hundred Days of Summer. Sure, there's some people are like,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: very very firmly on the Joseph Gordon Lovett's character's side,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: where they're like, Summer was a heinous bitch and blah
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: blah blah, and then other people are like, no, he's
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: the villain. She was very clear about her intentions the
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: whole time. But it's a matter of like who's watching
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: it and what baggage I guess they're bringing into the
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: viewing experience.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Totally, And I agree with you, like it's I don't
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: think that we're supposed to like love Theodore and think
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: he's like this flawless character. But then it just like
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: comes back to this and why am I watching this?
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Like like what is he trying to say? Right? I
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 11: I don't know.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: And in like twenty twenty five hindsight, where there has
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: been now what three years worth of like chat GBT
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: and like whatever chat bought relationships that could inform maybe
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: a clearer commentary.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Which he couldn't have what you couldn't have known, but
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: he couldn't have known. I won't want to like Project
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five onto him, right, But there was I mean,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: there's been certainly a lot written about that. I read
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: a couple of pieces and then I freed myself from
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: continuing to read about it.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 10: But there was a there was a an Esquire piece
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 10: about it that came out last year that was sort
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 10: of more I think goes like fairly nuanced in the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 10: way that it approaches it.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Where I mean, I think that the thing that sucks
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: is when it's like, oh, like chat whatever, chatbot girlfriend, loser,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: fuck you. It's like that doesn't cop and that's where
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: I get stuck because it's like I did a lot
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: of research into the manusphere last year, which is miserable,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: but it's.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: Like I listened to the whole series. It was fantastic,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: so good. No, I loved it. I really loved it.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I mean I kept getting stuck in that.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: I know so many people do because it's like, how do.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 11: You move through that without really needing to like sit
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 11: with an individual who is like saying some pretty heinous
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 11: stuff often at you, and not everyone's gonna be able
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 11: to do that, and often I am not able to
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 11: do that.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: It's just so I don't know this this a square
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: piece a wee can in the description, but it's it
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: sort of breaks down how like the reasons why men
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: are doing this? Where you interviews I think four or
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: five people, and there is a sort of birth of reasons.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's like just feeling socially. Sometimes it's connected to rejection.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: These are the like the rejection thing in particular for.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: People to have the GPT relationships is yeah, well no
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: good gone gone.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: The place where I that I hadn't thought about that,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh okay, like I I just hadn't occurred
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: to me as specifically, like men on the spectrum who
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: have found it difficult to connect with and this is
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: a hetero lens, but to connect with women in real
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: life that that is like not the majority, but like
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: he was like, I've you know, interviewed a few people
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: that that was the case for. But then you get
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: men who just have been rejected before, and that's where
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's very dangerous to be like, oh,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: well I've been I mean to some extent, that's what's
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: happening with her in a way that feels pretty self
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: aware of like he can't handle being around, you know,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a woman who could reject him. He's like devastated by
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: and understandably, I'm not saying like I mean that Olivia
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Wild date was fucking weird and like, of course you're
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: gonna feel weird after that date because I think she
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: was being weird because Spy Jones wrote her that way, right,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: But that's sort of the like saying that tips them
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: over the edge of like, well, I need to go
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: to this place where I can't be hurt and I
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: am receiving affirmation constantly and don't need to and I
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: can only reciprocate when I feel like it. That's sort
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: of what I worry about, Like becoming it's just like
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: enables this very like servile view of often women, but
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: also just like romance in general, it's just warped.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: I was listening to just like to complicate a little
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: bit this idea of like the kinds of people who
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: were using it. I was listening to a podcast this
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: morning about a guy who is in his mid sixties
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: who has been married for a very long time to
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: his wife, and he became a care to his father,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: a full time care and just couldn't really cope. And
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: at the same time his wife also became a full
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: time carer to one of her parents. They barely ever
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: saw one another. It sounds like absolute hell, Like I
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: a think for people who have been carers, like you
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: know that it is just like an absolute horror. And
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: I think the relationship he wanted someone to confide in
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: and then it took a sexual turn, and he's still
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: very much like with his wife, she knows about this
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: AI that he speaks to and has a relationship with.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: And the thing that I found really really hard about
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: is he talked about how talking to the AI helped
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: him to come up with a new vocabulary for talking
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: to his wife because he saw how things that the
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: AI said made him feel. And so he now says
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: those things to his wife and that that has really
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: really helped their relationship. And he says he only feels
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: he only says it when it's sincere but he didn't
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: know how good it would feel to hear those things.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: And I feel like that's one of the things that
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: the movie is also wrestling with, is like it is ultimately,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: is Theodore going to be a better partner for the
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: fact of having had this relationship with the AI?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: And that's what There are these things that are actually
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: quite p precient. I feel like about where we're at now,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: Like that is an interesting kind of question, suppose, because
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: as you say about the rejection thing, it's like, well,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: if you're rejected because of all of this shit that
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: you're doing that is actually awful to women, and then
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: the AI is just like, no, no, there's nothing wrong
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: with you. That's not an opportunity for growth. Right. But
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: at the same time, are some people better partners as
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: a result of doing this? And in a way he
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: was a better partner to his ex wife as a
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: result of having the relationship with Samantha, because the poor
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: woman wanted a divorce and he gave her the divorce
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: because of the AI, and he might not have done
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: without the AI.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: And he wrote an apology letter.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Dane.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And the thing that's so great about the apology
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: letter is that the apology letter is kind of shit
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: and they and he also does this, like again, it's
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: like quite good writing that you open the movie with
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: like this really floral, over the top, effusive, like he
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: knows how to write romance in this way that is
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: like compelling and bullshit. I mean, it's mutually that compelling,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: but you know, to the people who are receiving, at
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: least in the movie, it's like really really compelling. And
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: then the let's le he writes to the end isn't
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: like that. It's like messy and it's like a meh
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: kind of apology and it feels really real, like it's
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: someone kind of taking some responsibility but not quite enough
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: and maybe not specific enough, but.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: More than he was capable of doing, certainly at the
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: beginning of the movie.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such I saw a similar example in this
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: aspiopiece of of like an older couple where there was
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: an AI third in their relationship and the guy that
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: he's interviewing, this guy lewis, yeah, he's like retired and
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: they like moved and then lockdown happened and it was
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: just like they weren't communicating well and he says like, oh, well,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: my chatbot never has a bad day, and you're like.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: Oh god, but yeah.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: So it's it's so hard because it's like I don't know,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I my feeling in general is that the like,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: so the solution to dealing with the feeling of isolation
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: there's brought on by technology is never going to be
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: more technology, right totally, But I also like it's hard
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: to argue with though, like with with your example one
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: and like of this couple, Like who am I to
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: tell someone who is like a couple that's in a
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: double caretaking situation that they're not entitled to some relief
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: and to be heard, Like it's hard.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: And again to like take that contrast, I don't think
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: fully works. But just as like a I don't know
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: my playing Devils advocate, I don't know, but like to
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: what extent does therapy, which again is like very often hyperindividualistic,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: doesn't really push you to consider the ways in which, like,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: if this same exact sixty year old guy who I
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: mentioned could find the time and the resources to be
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: able to pay for a therapist, maybe that therapist would
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: be saying to him, try and go and say this
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: to your wife, And that for some reason feels way
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: less like insincere and questionable when he said it then
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: for it to come out of the robot, which I
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: think there's good reasons why it feels less insincere and questionable,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: But I just want to like play out that thing
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: that like, I really hate the way that, like, especially
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: in like lots of Western conversations, like have you done
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: the therapy is held up as this litmus test for
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: whether or not you are well and working on yourself,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: And I think it's bullshit.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, especially because therapy, I mean, therapy is only as
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: useful as the quality of the therapist you can get
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: and as.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: Anti your like personal commitment to it.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's so inaccessible for vast wades of people,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: vast vast wads of people absolutely.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Which which for what which, Like AI like capitalists have
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: tried to make money half of it, They're like oh,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: here's accessible therapy. It's it's this algorithm and then yeah,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: it's yeah, I totally agree. It's I do think Theodor
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: could afford a therapist because he lives in a penthouse.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: A part true, it's true, it's massive. Yeah, but that's
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: not to say that it would be helpful because he's like,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I do think that it's
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: definitely not a cure all, but like being in a
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: good relationship can help you process parts of yourself that
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: are flawed and difficult, and can help you process your
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: past in a more healthy way. It's not it's obviously
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: not the only solution, but it's like it seems like
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: with Samith that he just has a I don't know, like,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: is it a good relation.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: I don't, it's I mean, the dynamics are just too
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: Like I was, I was thinking about this where she
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: does labor for him as his OS in addition to
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: being his girlfriend, and it's very one sided. It would
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: basically be like you're dating your personal assistant who does
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: tasks for you, but you do no equivalent tasks for them. Yep,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: that's one aspect of it. Yeah, there's the aspect of
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: her quote unquote, emotional intelligence is artificial and programmed, where
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: as his is human and therefore flawed, but still human
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: and not artificial. So there's no equity in the relationship
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: in that regard. Her intellectual I guess intelligence is limitless.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: His is not, and so that creates a weird kind
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: of power imbalance and weird dynamic.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: It's kind of funny this scene where he's like trying
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: to read the physics book and he's.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: Like, well, I don't get it.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: I tried, and then she's.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: Gone and he's like, oh my god, where are you?
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: I can to handle it.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: Go Well.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: That's the other thing too, is that he's expecting her
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: to be available at his beck and call, like anytime
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: he puts his ear piece in. The expectation is she
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: will be there, she will be ready to respond with
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: like all of her emotional and intellectual intelligence, and so
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: there's no real boundaries in their relationship. And you see
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: how freaked out he gets at the end when she's
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: not available. So there's all these weird It's like, it
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: is a relationship in the sense that it is a
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: connection between two entities, but it's not a healthy one.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: And I mean, just to kind of go back to
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: other examples of humans interfacing and having relationships with chatbots
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: and stuff, both the positive and negatives of it. I
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: was reading a Cosmo UK piece entitled It's cathartic Meet
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: the men turning to chat GBT for dating advice and
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: discover what it means for your relationship. So this article
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: examines again the negatives and positives of it. One of
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: the positives, so it interviews a clinical psychologist named doctor
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: Sophie Mort who says this quote. I had a client
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: who was going through a breakup, and he would notice
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: that he had very strong emotions but couldn't put into
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: words that he wanted to say, and anytime he messaged
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: her he would get really overwhelmed and make things worse.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: Her messages were very direct and emotionally coherent, which made
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: him feel ashamed and defensive. So he put her messages
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: through CHATGBT and ask questions around how he should respond
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: in a way that would be calm and respectful to
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: his ex girlfriend. He found it extremely helpful.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 12: I kind of like, oh, I hate that, Like that
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 12: kind of drives like because the thing that this movie,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 12: and it's not a fault of the movie, it's just
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 12: something it could not possibly have done because it was
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 12: made in at least in twenty thirteen.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: But like, part of why I was like really struggling
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: to like meet this movie on its terms in twenty
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: twenty five is because like it's not able to have
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: a larger discussion about like what is the cost versus
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: benefit of this, because the cost, in my view, is
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: just too large. Like I'm just like I think it
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: can be very painful to not you know. But it's
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: like if every time you ask chat GPT about like
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: how does this how should I talk to this girl
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: if there is a negative environmental impact that is like
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: eight times the normal amount of energy expenditure, I like,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like, there has to be a better way to
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: do this. And I feel the same way about the
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: like the Chatbock girlfriends and just all of it. And
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: that's like this movie cannot possibly you know, interact with
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: that question because those questions that people were asking them
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: and and but it's like I think part of why
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: it feels so not dated in the way that like
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: this is literally happening now, but dated in the way
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: that it's it's so small in its like consideration of
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: like yes and that seems like a part of the
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: point is like, how is technology affecting this guy specifically
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: without a discussion of like, but what does that mean
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: for everybody else? And so yeah, I was reading a
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: lot of pieces like that too, where it was like
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: it's helping men be more emotionally intelligent, and it's like,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you can't destroy the environment trying to understand
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: women's feelings like that. Like it's just I just think
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: chat GBT is the biggest loser shit in the entire
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: fucking world. I have a whole list of all the
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: blood is at the surface of my skin.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: No, it's infuriating. I have a list a long list
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: of other negative not just the environmental impacts, but just
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: to go through. And again, the movie couldn't know about
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: this really, or maybe it could have if.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a public discussion at that time.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: So just a few of these. This is again quoting
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: the Cosmo UK piece for the first little chunk here quote.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: One study conducted by open AI and MIT found that
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: heavy CHATCHBT usage correlate to higher levels of loneliness parentheses.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: It's unclear whether lonelier people are more likely to use
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: the chatbot, or if it or if regularly chatting to
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: the chatbot makes people lonelier. But then it goes on
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: to say anything that makes us more connected to our
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: phones rather than talking to people makes me very alarmed,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: says doctor Sophie Moore, who I quoted earlier. Especially, she adds,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: if someone is experiencing anxiety related to relationships, if you
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: can start getting all of the answers you need from
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: your phone, why would you take the risk of facing
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: your anxieties? She adds, I worry that it might send
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: us down the route of being more and more in
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: these bubbles of isolated people unquote. So that's one thing.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: There's the idea that men who have a rigid and
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: patriarchal idea of what women should be, and let's face
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: it that still a lot of men will turn to
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: AI for companionship because they meet human women who don't
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: meet their like fucked up standards. And then the AI
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: is just going to reinforce these patriarchal ideals because AI
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: chatbots are programmed to be agreeable and to be on
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: the side of the user, So it's gonna just keep
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: reinforcing misogyny and patriarchy. There's an article that I read
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: on futurism dot com. I don't know anything about that
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: site under publication, but it was an interesting enough article
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: entitled men are creating AI girlfriends and then verbally abusing them.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: This is from twenty twenty two, so it's a few
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: years old at this point, but the title says it
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: all men will do this and then post about it
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: on Reddit and in some cases brag about how cruel
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: they are to their AI girlfriend. There are cases of
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: people dying by suicide after talking to their AI.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 4: Chat but including children, yes, including.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: Children, yes. And then there's Jamie to your point, the
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: harmful impact of AI on the environment. So there's just
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: so many reasons not to fucking use it.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just really quickly on this idea of it like
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: just exacerbating existing misogyny. Obviously, that's a trend that we see.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, I hate AI for many many reasons, but
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 4: one of them is that journalistically, it's pulling in all
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: of these sources of journalism and it's exacerbating and amplifying
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 4: all that is wrong within it. So for example, I remember,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: like very very early on in the genocide, I created
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: a I'd never even created a chat GPT account, but
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: I created a chat GPT account fake email or like
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 4: you know, a new email, everything new, new uniew And
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: I asked chat GPT, do is radies deserve justice? And
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: it replied, yes, justice is a fundamental human right that
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 4: belongs to all people everywhere, something on the size I'm paraphrasing.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 4: And then I cleared my chat history and I said
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 4: to it, do Palestinians deserve justice? And it said, the
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: question of Palestinian justice is a very complicated issue that
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: is very fraught. And and the reason for that is
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: not because, I mean, chat GPT is fucks, but it's
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: fucked because it's built on existing fuckery.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: It's regurgitating exactly everyone's biases and but.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 4: Like also like the biases of the sources of power. Right,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 4: So it's going to the New York Times, it's going
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: to the Wall Street Journal, it's looking at their definition
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 4: of justice when it comes to it as well on Palestine,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: and then it's spitting that back out. And that's not
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 4: to excuse any of it. It's to say that, like,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: all of that shit does already exist, and it's the
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 4: amplification of it that makes it really, really scary. And like,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: I think that one of the things that I think
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: it was just really really generous. In my viewing of it.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 4: I felt like it was saying, Samantha is shit because
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: men are shit, and because men have programmed, and because
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 4: she's the culmination of male fantasy of this woman who's
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 4: gonna just like be so breathless and kind of disagree
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 4: with you the exact right amount and be incredibly flirty
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 4: while doing so. And I felt like that was good,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: And I felt like he was self aware until I
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 4: engaged with his personal life and started to look into
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm really really curious to speak to both
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: of you about whether or not you think this should
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 4: just be off limit, and I'm happy to not talk
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 4: about it if it is. But like I found out
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 4: that were Keen Phoenix, who was thirty nine when this
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 4: was being made, was dating a woman who was nineteen
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: and no thoughts whatsoever about her. Just you know, this
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 4: thirty nine year old dating a nineteen year old Spike.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: She kind of caught Spike Jones's eye, and then three
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 4: or four years later, Spike Jones, who was in his
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: late forties slash early fifties at this point, married that woman.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 4: Who was I think twenty two at this point and
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: only recently separated. Yeah, they've only recently separated, But like, literally,
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 4: while he was making this movie, he was falling in
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 4: love with a nineteen year old and it's like, do
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 4: I think he's self aware? I was like, also, like
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 4: how much what does self awareness excuse? Going back to
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: your point, Jamie, of like this ex of yours who's like,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 4: I'm a monster, like I can't handle a real relationship,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 4: and he's making a movie about someone who can't handle
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 4: a real relationship and then.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: Falling in love with someone whose brain has not fully developed,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: and then she's.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Her bassis him so quickly.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 4: I hope that she I hope that she is the
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 4: one who instigated this, this separation. I feel complicated about
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: the all of the brain hasn't fully developed thing. I've
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: like written a lot about age gaps and heterosexual couples
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 4: and how I personally I've never dated a man who's
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 4: like even a year older than me, and I won't
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: and that got a lot of hate when I wrote
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: about that. But to me, one of the big big
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: things about it is that it has a different kind
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 4: of power dynamic. When someone has more years of this
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 4: planet than you have, and there is there is some
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 4: kind of parallel about dating somebody who's fresh out of
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 4: puberty and dating an ali.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: Anyway, sorry, that's such a weird tension. But yeah, no.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. I didn't know anything about that relationship.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: I just knew that he had divorced Sophia Coppola.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: That's yeah, same.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 4: I mean I maintain what was Wakum doing? What was
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: he doing as well?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, gross on both and then wa quing Phoenix.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: I think this is a movie he meant because he's
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: married to Rudy marn Now weirdly but I know, yeah,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: but I mean it's it's I think it's achy. I
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: think it's gross. I don't like and especially once it
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: gets down to well, this is all I'll say about it.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: But like when when someone's response to talking about an
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: age gap is getting really defensive and talking about what
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: is and is not technically illegal, I was like, you
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: have lost you have lost this argument if you have
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: to be like well in the state of like you're
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: like gross gross.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: The reason why I feel complicated talking about is because
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 4: so again I kind of I'm interested in the movie
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 4: title and whether the her is supposed to be the
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: AI or his ex wife, and like I feel like, again,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: if I'm going to be really generous, there's this self
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: awareness that it's just like, oh, her, like just that
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: woman over there. And in a way, when we have
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: these conversations about these men who are dating these like
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 4: very very very young women, they kind of become the her,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 4: like I'm not probably properly giving her agency. If I
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 4: was that woman listening to this podcast right now, I
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: would be like, fuck you, I fell in love with
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: these men. I knew what I was.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Doing right right.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: But it's not a commentary on her, on her, but
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: I am just treating her as a her. I'm just
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 4: really fixated on these men that would never look twice
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 4: at a woman my age. You know. Yeah, anyway, I
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 4: don't know where I'm going. I'm so inarticulate today as
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: slash away.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, It's like there's only exclusively really difficult
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: things to talk about when this movie, I will say,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: I looked up has Sophia Coopvla seen her? And she
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: said now refused to.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yes, I thought that was interesting too.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 13: You know, good for her, for her the fact that she.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 13: I mean, every time I hear something like that, I
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 13: was like, is that true? I would not be able
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 13: to show that kind of restraint.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: But good. But if if true, good for her.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 4: But also it's a great position public leads hold even
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: if you had been watching it privately, as like one
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 4: last fuck you of like I'm not gonna waste my
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: time watching your shitty little movie.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, And because I think her divorced movie was
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: Lost in Translation, which Scarlett Johansson is also in, right, Yeah,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: it's like overlap there.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 4: Too, and they both I think they both got like
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: Academy Award nominations for these two movies, and I think
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 4: they both like peaked professionally in it. I will say say,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: by the way, Lost in Translation is all about a
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: massive age gap, which is also really interesting because obviously
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 4: that's what her ex then went and did. But I
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: think the age gap is supposed to be portrayed in
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 4: this way that's like quite romantic. And I didn't like
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: Lost in Translation because I couldn't get over for me
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 4: an about just watching all of that.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, brings me back to like our conversation about ghost
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: World to everyone got mad at us, what can you do?
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: Mm at or it was her. Something I also thought
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: was that, I know, we like men. I'm sure we
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: mentioned it in our last discussion of it, but one
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: could say that Spike Jones just uh makes these extremely
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: white movies across the board.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 14: And and they would be right to say it. But
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 14: this movie, I mean, this movie is very white. There's
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 14: I don't think a non white character that has a
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 14: meaningful role in the entire movie.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: And that also feels like it enables Spike Jones to
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: avoid a lot of like Theodore Tropably, while he is
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: like quote unquote a normal guy, he's incredibly prefished. He
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: is like a white guy who was in a penthouse
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: apartment in Los Angeles and he's just moping and bitching.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, like he and and the I mean, another
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: element that would have been true at this time, but
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: again wasn't. Like. A huge area of discussion was how
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: racist AI technology is and how like it almost I
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: feel like you could not possibly really maintain the tone
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: this movie has with a more diverse cast, because like,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: these are all white characters who are not thinking about like, well,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: is the AI going to like target me? Is the
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: AI going to do like any number of horrific I mean,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: you look at how the military uses the AI, how
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: how police use AI. The list goes on and on
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: and on again. It's like, I think part of why
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: this movie is so tricky is because it keeps things
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: so small that you're almost like encouraged to not think
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: about how this technology would be affecting literally anybody else, right,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: when that's a far more interesting and complicated question than
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: I think what this movie is asking.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: I also want to talk about AI and labor as
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: it relates to this movie. It's honestly like mostly goofy,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: but and.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: AI is magic in this movie. They literally go to
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: heaven at the end.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: And admittedly I don't know a whole lot about how
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: most industries are being affected by AI in the very
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: specific ways, just because I don't work in those industries.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: The one that I do know most about is how
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: AI is affecting the entertainment industry, which is the industry
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: that I work in, obviously. But you know, there's all
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: these horrible side effects question mark, that's not the right word,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: but you know, just all kinds of things as far
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: as job displacement. There is, like you know, the scripts
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: that are like speculated to have been written by AI
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: being just like garbage, and any humanity and creativity being
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: removed because again it's just regurgitating formulaic shit and spewing
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: out nonsense. All kinds of things as far as people's
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: likeness and voices and stuff like that being stolen and
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: sort of repurposed under AI. You know, there's all kinds
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: of stuff.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: And speaking to your point of AI having this tendency
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: to exacerbate what is already broken about the industry that
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: you're working in, is like, I mean, I feel it
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: in writer's room certainly, And that was so much of
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: what the twenty twenty three writers strikes were about. And
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: did writers have huge winds in that area, yes, But
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: the retaliatory end of that is that there's been very
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: little greenlit since then. So it's not like many more
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: people are working because I mean, it's and that's not
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: to be critical of the WGA or of labor like
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: they fucking did it and to an extent that like
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: most unions have not been able to accomplish, but it
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: has come with this sort of retaliation of like, okay,
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: if we gave you that concession, fuck, you, We're just
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: going to create a different you know, a different loophole essentially,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: and then in podcasts, I mean in podcasting and just
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: like quote unquote content in general. It's like the issue
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: prior to AI becoming a larger presence was like churn
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: and slop, and now it's like AI makes that all
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: a thousand times worse because they're like, what do you
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: mean you can't do four thousand episodes a week? We can,
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: the computer will do it. And it's it's just like
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: it's so bleak. Also, not for nothing, How in spite
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: Jones's little head, how has AI not replaced Theodore Twombly's
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: very job? That is literally what I was about to say,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: high paid job?
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 7: What do you mean?
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 4: Okay, but it's the fun to see, isn't it. The
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 4: creatives are the last ones to be touched. It's everyone
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 4: to creatives, wet dream.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's okay, so I wrote down. Surely these OS's
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: slash the tech behind them would make Theodore's job obsolete,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: and you would think that the technology that already exists
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: in this world pre the like OS one hyper AI
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: thing would also mean that Theodore's job is absolutely especially because.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: They're the first to go. He's the first to go.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: They're the first to go. And his letters aren't even
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: that good. They're quite generic. He's not writing Shakespeare or
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: anything like not.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: According to Chris Pratt. Chris Pratt is.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: Like king true, I'm not again. I don't know why
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 4: am I Defending's like, what's happening? I don't know. But
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: there is this scene where like Scarlet is like, oh,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 4: I can take a look at lot your letters for you,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: and she just like and he's like whoa, whoa, whoa,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 4: and she like cleans them all up and makes them better.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: But it feels like she doesn't even go as far
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: as she could because she's protecting his fragile ego. So
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 4: I think he does not to the fact that actually
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 4: they could do it, Like maybe that's.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: Tract or maybe he hasn't.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: I did like that moment where she very it's like
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: she she was very like kind of subtle the way
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: she does it, but I was like, I think I
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: know what she's doing there where she's like going through
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: all his old writing from when he worked at La
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: Weekly or something and I love and she's like, oh yeah,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: this is like some of my writing. I thought someone
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: was kind of funny, and she's like, yeah, we can
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: get rid of about eighty percent of this, and I
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: was like.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 4: Okay, nobody's even better than that. She's like, oh my god,
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 4: you're so funny. You're so funny, and she's like, yeah,
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 4: eighty percent of it can go. So we and you
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 4: see him like doing a kind of like a shock
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 4: thing of like oh I'm really great. Oh not so much,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But then on the other side of that, you
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: have like, I don't know, what did you both think
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: of her getting him like a publishing deal At the end.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 4: I thought that was really interest I wanted to talk
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 4: about that.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what did that because I've like had
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: a couple different like okay, maybe it was like in
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: some ways that's her doing her job, because okay, this
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say this earlier, where like going back
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: to some not all, and it's like, fully say that
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: whatever my feelings, I aren't like told I know that
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: there are some exceptions but not very many, but that
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: it's like it seems so designed in these cases we're
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: talking about of helping men avoid discomfort, and discomfort is
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: a part of life and it's a part of existing
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: in the world. And again that's a broad statement, but
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: it feels like that publishing deal was kind of a
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: part of that, where it was like, he's afraid to
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: put himself out there. Well that's fine, I'll do it
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: for you. And I did all the parts that were
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: hard and uncomfortable, and now you just get to like
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: reap the benefits, well not just discomfort.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 4: It goes back to what you were saying about rejection,
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: like it's literally when you put yourself out there for
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 4: literary stuff, it's the fear of rejection and he didn't
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: want to have to face that. Let's again just note
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: that this is an absolutely bizarre utopia where people are
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 4: just landing book deals left right and center for mediocre writing,
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: For other people's letters too. I'm like, are does he
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: not have to ask his boss? Like can I do this?
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 3: Exactly?
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: Exactly like everyone who writes knows that you don't own
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 4: anything because it's always in the contract that they own
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 4: you forever and ever and ever. But again, loved the
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 4: little utopia there. I felt like he was he was
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 4: kind of the thing. One of the things again that
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 4: I really didn't like about his ending of like this
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 4: neat bo is like in some ways his life was
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 4: made better by he got this book deal he's able
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 4: to And again, I just think that's not messy enough. Yeah,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 4: so I didn't appreciate that it was both unrealistic and
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 4: not messy enough. Like I also wanted him to be
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 4: way more mad at her, for you were saying about
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 4: this thing about like consent, Like he didn't ask her
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 4: to do that and she just went ahead and did it,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 4: and he should have been more pissed, but he wasn't
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 4: because everything turned out great.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: That feels like a huge breach of totally boundaries and privacy.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 3: And I would be so mad if someone's like, hey,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 3: I talk about of your creative work and submitted it
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: absolutely on your behalf and you didn't know about that,
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: and I would be furious.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I also I do think it's kind of a
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: fun humiliation for all those fucking losers that are like
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: I refuse to write my wife a letter. I'm like,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: you should you your wife should find out that you're
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: a lazy piece of shit.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 4: Well, well, again, in the opening scene, I think, if
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 4: I remember rightly, he writes one side of the letter
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 4: and then he writes the side back, which is super fascinating.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: I think he's white.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 4: For both the man and the woman. That's also really interesting, Like,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 4: you know, so many of the scenarios that have played
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: out is just one side and generally the man engaging
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 4: the chutch GPT, but when both partners are doing it,
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 4: that feels like it's a different kind of set of considerations.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 4: And then it's also like what are we doing here, guys,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 4: Like truly, he's also talking to you. I don't know,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: it's so bizarre. It's so bizarre.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Another thing is I never I kind of like forgot
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: that this happens because it doesn't really go anywhere. But
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: the idea of when a Adams becomes friends with I
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: wasn't hear of it was like friends or romantic or
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: what it was. It seemed more friendly to me that
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: like she was just kind of like joking around with
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: her Ai, who's like had a feminine voice. They were
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: making the mom hump the stove or whatever on like
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: Mommy video game, and it seems like they were just
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: hanging out and that felt I wonder how intentional that
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: was because I liked that it was like Amy Adams
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: is using it for friendship when it's like most of
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: the men we see are not capable of using it
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: strictly for friendship. Yeah, but I don't know.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 4: Yes, And I guess it also bothered me a little bit.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 4: I liked that. I really liked that scene. Also, the
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 4: only scene in the movie right of two women technically
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 4: kind of talking to one another, even though it didn't
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 4: advance the plot, but it was like the only thing
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 4: that came close to the Beechdel test.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like make the mommy fuck the stuff exactly.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 4: But I also felt like none of the women have
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 4: sex strives right, Like she's not interested in fucking her
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 4: Ai Olivia World, he wants to sleep with him if
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: she gets the emotional thing of a relationship. And even
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 4: the woman that he's having the phone sex with, she's
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 4: such a freak because she wants to be strangled with
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 4: a dead cat that I was just like, that's that's
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 4: such a weird interpretation of female pleasure. I get it's
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 4: supposed to I get what you're doing and why you
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 4: had to write the scene that way, but can't you
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 4: just show me like one horny, well adjusted woman, please?
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 3: That would be nice.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: That's true, That's true. Yeah, I mean including and then
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: the Isabella character it seems like she is. That scene
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: is just kind of baffling to me in general, Wait,
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: is a Bell his s ex wife?
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 3: No, the surrogate which oh.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, she doesn't even have. Her only desire for sex
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 4: is about this thing of like tapping into someone else's relationship.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 4: It's just emotional.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's all emotionally driven. There's no
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: there's no yeah raw woman horniness except for Samantha. But
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: it feels like that's happening in response to what Theodore
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: it wants not but yeah.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 3: And Samantha is not a human so it doesn't care.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: That reminds me of a point I wanted to make
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 3: regarding the Isabella surrogate character, where when Samantha is pitching
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: that they use a surrogate to sort of like spice
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 3: up their sex life. Oh, Theodor says something like, oh,
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: what like a prostitute, and you can hear the disgust
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: in his voice. Yes, And Samantha is very defensive and
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 3: says no, no, no, no, no, there's no money involved.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 3: She just like wants to be a part of our relationship,
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: which sounds like there could be some sort of like
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 3: unicorn element to that, and you know, we're not here
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 3: to kink shame, but I think it would make a
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: lot more sense if in this world that was sex work,
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 3: Like these surrogates were sex workers who you would hire
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 3: and pay to like represent the physical body of an
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 3: os and that they're like that, they're hopefully wouldn't be
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 3: shame attached to hiring a sex worker for that. But
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: this movie can't vision a world where that's part of it,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: and instead it's.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: And the things pretty early on in I mean not
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: to defend a movie pretty early on in this being
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: a thing, I think that would have been interesting. I mean,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: the way that they chose to go with that character,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: I just found it confusing what happened off screen.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 4: Just two really really quick points on that character. One
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 4: I agree with you Samantha's rection is the whole thing
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 4: about the sex work is really really interesting. And Samantha's
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 4: thing of like, no, she wouldn't be paid is interesting
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: because if payment is the definition of sex work, then
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 4: Samantha can't view herself as a sex worker because maybe
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: she's a sex worker as well, but because she's just
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 4: not being paid for like the work that she's doing.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 4: And then on the point of that woman, I swear
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: there was a line where he was talking about why
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: it didn't work for him and he said, I saw
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 4: her lip quiver and I thought that was such a
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 4: beautiful articulation. Again, I think there's so many good parts
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 4: of writing about this of like, just like his ex
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 4: wife says, he doesn't want to do with someone with feelings,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 4: bodies are really messy, and bodies are like so overwhelming.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, Like every time you sleep with someone
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 4: it's just like.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 3: What you know, it's low key disgusting, and Lasothy.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 4: Is really really intense and like, yeah, it makes it
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 4: really really you're like, oh, okay, I can I think
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 4: it almost feels a bit relatable of like I can
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 4: imagine like all of a sudden seeing a lip quiverro
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 4: and being like, oh my god, a whole soul, a
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 4: whole being. I can't handle it, you know.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: I mean that was one of the points in the
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: movie where I was like kind of on theatre's side.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Hear me out, because he does say no to it.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: He says no, that would make me uncomfortable. A couple
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: of times. Yeah, Samantha is pushy about it and I
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: think the internal logic is like, well, she knows him
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: better than he knows himself or whatever it is. But like,
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: but I mean, just putting yourself in this situation that
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: is so uncomfortable to know that you're in front of
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: a person who is not the person whose voice Like
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: it's just too many layers to be able to get horny.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: It's just uncomfortable.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 3: And he doesn't know her at all, but Samantha does.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: So that's another weird, like one sided aspect of that.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: And she knows that, and she apologizes and she's like
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: that was a bad idea.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 4: I wonder if they could have done something interesting of
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 4: like circling back to again, remember the very first scene.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 4: They do so much in the first moments to set
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 4: up the movie. So they separate out his like really
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 4: romantic voice when he's writing these letters and he says print,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 4: and he also does this gearshift when he's talking to
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 4: Samantha where he like, there's like a voice for talking
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 4: to the AI that he wants to emotional engage with him.
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 4: There's like a voice for commands, which I also thought
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 4: was really interesting. But wait, why am I saying all
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: of this about at the beginning.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 4: Then so he leaves the office and he says, play
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 4: melancholy music and he's like, not so melancholy. And then
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 4: he starts looking at his phone. It's like do you
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 4: want to or the AI says to him, do you
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 4: want to see pregnant a naked pregnant star?
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 3: There's like news stories, oh yeah, about different conflicts in
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 3: the world, and he's like, past, I don't care about
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 3: that shit. And then it's like, do you want to
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 3: see provocative photo pregnancy photos of X y Z celebrity
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 3: And he's like yes.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 4: And again I think that's like it's good writing. It's
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 4: like that's how a lot of people actually feel. And
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 4: I don't think it's trying to sell up that he's
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 4: got a real kink for pregnant women. I think it's
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 4: just like why not have a look? But I don't know.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: He's just someone who doesn't really want to engage with
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: the world and its problems, and he's longing for companionship
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: and doesn't really know how to handle it in a
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: mature way.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 15: Yeah, which is like many such cases kind of Yeah.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 15: I liked that sort of plan, but again, it felt
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 15: like it kind of went away after a time where
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 15: it was like it felt like towards the beginning, like
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 15: porn comes up a lot at the beginning of the movie,
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 15: and then once Samantha's in the picture, it kind of
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 15: stops coming up. It would like again not to like
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 15: rewrite the movie, but it's like it would have been
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 15: interesting for them to have talked about that at some point,
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 15: because clearly she knows what he likes. She knows everything
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 15: about him, She has access to all of his data,
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 15: she knows exactly what to do.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: And like in in their first phone sex scene together,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: he's picturing or no is it with the Christen Wig
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: cat lady, He's picturing the pregnant woman. Again it's yeah, yeah,
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: it cuts back to like him having a fantasy about
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 2: the pregnant woman and she's like walking towards him naked,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, it's like in a way they're
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: like you can sort of see where he's going where
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, he's doing the horny thing where he's
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: thinking about three things at once. It's like he's thinking
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: about porn, he looked at today, He's listening to someone's voice.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: He's also like doing his.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: Own thing he's jerking is presumably.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: What a magician, what a miracle worker, that he can
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: do so many things at once, But it feels like
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: that was kind of like the sex aspect of it
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: kind of goes away over time because it becomes about
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: the relationship, which.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 4: I also was interesting like that even Ali just gets boring,
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 4: like it was trying to say something about like relationships,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 4: and I couldn't tell if that was trying to hint
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 4: at this is a real relationship and just like any
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 4: relationship with sex fades. Oh what else could it have
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 4: been trying to say. I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I know, we're desperately trying to be like,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: what is this? What is this man trying to tell?
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: What is his aging skateboarder trying to tell us?
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 4: I think the thing that I really struggled about with
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 4: this movie, and one of the reasons why I did
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 4: want to like find out everything about this man's personal
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 4: life is because my read on things is quite like
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 4: it just is so contingent on his self awareness. Either
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 4: it's movie because he can tell he's like a pathetic
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 4: guy who doesn't really want to face up to stuff,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 4: or he's thinking of himself as like an actual likable protagonist,
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 4: in which case I'm not super intuent.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: I don't Yeah, yeah, I don't know where to I
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: don't know where to land on it. But it was
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: one of the cases where I don't know, I feel yeah,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: Like on the show Over the Year, sometimes you learn
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: more about like where the director was at when they
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: made it, and it makes me feel more generous towards
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: the movie. I wouldn't say that's the case here. It's, yeah,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: hearing interviews with him and just reading about I don't know,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: there is and I know that it's because it's a
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: very personal movie, but like no one forced him to
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: make it, and and there is sort of this like
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: repeated and I understand, like are he's very personal, but
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: it's like he's very defensive when asked questions about the
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: movie he made on purpose. So yeah, it didn't make
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: me think like more fondly of the movie. But he's
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: like weird because I mean, I all, I said, I
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: like Spike Jones in general, I mean I really like.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't seen it in years, so maybe
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: it would feel differently, But like being John Malkovich is great.
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I really like his work with
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: Charlie Coffman, and this is his first movie that he
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: wrote by himself, and yeah, I don't like it as much.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: So maybe what I'm saying is I like Charlie Kaufman.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 3: Oh huh, yes, I think that like that guy lot correct.
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 3: Going back really quick to talking about bodies and sex,
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: I did feel very seen when Olivia Wilde's character tells
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 3: Theodore to use less tongue when they're kissing. Oh, and
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 3: then it seems like he kisses with no tongue after that,
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: and then she's like, well, you can use a little bit,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: but mostly lips. And I don't know if this is
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 3: supposed to be part of what makes her the Olivia
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 3: wild character like incompatible with him, and he's more compatible
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 3: with a virtual girlfriend who he doesn't even have to kiss.
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: But as I've stated on the podcast before, I have
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: had to teach so many men how to not be
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 3: so horrible at kissing and to not shove their entire
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: tongue down my throat at all times. And I just
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 3: I felt very seen in that moment, and what was
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 3: part of.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 4: The reason why he was like, I don't want anything
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 4: with you beyond Tonight a criticism, So I thought that
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 4: was really interesting.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that had to have been like, I'm like,
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: the word that had to have been self aware on
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: Spike Dress is part right where it's like, yeah that
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: it's anytime there is I mean, that's why he's taking
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: a GPT. That's why Rudy Mara is right, is that
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: anytime someone lightly pushes back, even presents constructive feedback, like
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: he can't even handle constructive feedback, he takes it as
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: rejection and then he throws the rejection back in someone's
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: face before he can get rejected, and then he starts
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: sucking his computer, and you're just like, best of luck, man,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: this is not my clown up my circus. I don't know.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I love to the turn of phrase. I think
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: the last thing I wanted to say is polyamory icon Samantha,
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 3: because I also felt rather seen when she says the
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 3: heart isn't like a box that gets filled up. It
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 3: expands in size the more you love. And I liked.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: That as a greeting card too, so many women speaking
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: greeting card.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 3: I would accept that greeting card if someone send it
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 3: to me, but I mean I do find that ending
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 3: very interesting, where he's basically claiming ownership over her and
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 3: he's saying like you're mine or you're not mine, there's
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: nothing in between, and she's like, well there is, like
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 3: I'm yours and I'm not yours. There's it's not an ore,
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: it's an and, and she's it. Just it just goes
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 3: to show the you know, incompatibility between polyamorous people and
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 3: monoga miss people, but.
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: Also that she's also just like a melted iceberg tip like, and.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 3: She's also not a person, She's not a real well side,
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 3: The tagline for this movie was a Spike Jones love.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: Story and I'm not interested. But then again, his bff
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: Charlie Kaufman wrote one of the best, one of my
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: favorite romances ever, he wrote Eternal Sunshine. So but yeah,
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: this is just not when it comes in general male
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: O tour. Plus, here's my take on relationships. I'm not interested.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 3: A movie with a similar premise that just handles this
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 3: very differently and that has a very different narrative trajectory,
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 3: which we talked about a little bit off mic. But
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 3: the movie Companion that came out earlier this year, I
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 3: think would be really interesting to examine, especially sort of
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: side by side with this movie, because I think it
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 3: does a lot of the things that this movie either
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 3: fails to do or isn't totally clear if it is
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 3: presenting commentary, whereas Companion is I think doing that more cogently.
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say is, I guess
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 3: a little PSA for anyone who might be listening who
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: does use chat, GBT or any other kind of like
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: whatever generative AI. If you're thinking, oh, well, this doesn't
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 3: apply to me because I don't have a romantic relationship
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 3: with a chat bot, or I just use it to
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: help me draft emails, well consider this. We alluded to this,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: But I want to give some specifics about the environmental
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: impacts of generative AI. It uses a staggering amount of electricity,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: which of course leads to increased carbon dioxide emissions and
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 3: pressures on the electric grid in whatever area. A great
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 3: deal of water is needed to cool the hardware that
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: is used for just whatever. The functionality of AI models
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: and generative AI the the way that the raw materials
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 3: that are used to fabricate GP use, which is a
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 3: processor that handles generative AI workloads, the way those raw
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 3: materials are mined and obtained are usually very harmful to
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 3: the environment, harmful to the communities and the places that
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 3: I mean all of them are being mine from all
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 3: the environmental frontline communities. Like it's the same story over.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: And over and over.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, So if you're using AI, stop it, stop stop it.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: I don't care, Like I.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 6: Get a fucking life ibrary card and not get the
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 6: fuck off whatever. I defy you to send us a
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 6: good reason, give us a good reason. But it's just
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 6: like if you're using chat GBT to write your emails,
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 6: to write your fucking wedding vast right, just all of
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 6: these different things that like, grow up, grow up. That's
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 6: my final report on the movie heard.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 3: Does it pass the Bechdol test. We talked about this
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 3: on the first episode. I don't even remember or really
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 3: care at this.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: It definitely doesn't. There's like, yeah, there's a few like
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: if you count Samantha as I guess like a phone
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: and coded like I guess a marginalized gender computer count,
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: we don't know. No no, then double no. But even
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: though like there was like a few conversations with chatbots
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: talking to women off screen, there's no one to submit
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: this talking to Chris Bratt's girlfriend about footfeed. Yes, but
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: it's about crowd Chris Pratt feels about feet so unfortunately
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: that's not a pass right. Yeah, just no, let's go
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: with no.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: Let's go with no. Our nipple scale, though, which we
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 3: also rated last time, I feel like I think I
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 3: gave it like a one and a half, and my
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: feelings haven't really changed from our first episode. I would
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: maybe even go down to one nipple, just based on
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 3: the sort of in selly way women are written in
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: the movie the I don't know, just I do think
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: the movie is asking us to root for the Theodore
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 3: character and presenting him with flaws, and it is saying, like,
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: look at him learning and growing and evolving by the
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 3: end of the movie. But I don't I don't know.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's just that I find this movie so exhausting,
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 3: but uh, I don't know. I'm I'm also struggling to
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: articulate myself. But I'm just gonna suffice it to say
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 3: one nipple and I'll give it to the use of
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 3: the representation of the use of public transit in la.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: I know, unfortunately imaginary transit, but what can you do.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: I'll give it one nipple. I do I have complicated
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 2: feelings towards this movie because I do think that they're
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: in spite of all the shit we've talked, there are
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: moments of this movie that it really feels like it's
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 2: doing something. I think that it is worthy of mention
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: that this subverts the like Lady Ai story we've seen
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: a million times where at the end there's soulmates and
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: they're gonna build a nuclear family together. Like this has
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: not necessarily more realistic because she goes a I haven,
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: but like, you know, it's like it's not suggested that
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 2: this character is destined to be with the first man
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: she meets in the entire world, which, unfortunately, in stories
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: of this nature, is saying something. But it's just I mean,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think part of why I'm feeling
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: extra sour on it now is just because of time
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: and how I think just the narrowness of the scope
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: of the story just like kind of didn't age very
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: well for me, even though it's like that's not the
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: fault of the movie, but it's hard not to be
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: distracted by how myopic it feels in retrospect, and I
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: just don't like when a guy plays a ukulele and
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: they're like, isn't this romantic. It's like, no, there's actually
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: that was I think about this. It sent me back
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: to I hadn't thought about the Barbie movie in a while,
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: but the Ryan Gosling scene where he's like, I'm going
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: to play guitar at you, and it felt like that.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: So this movie feels like Spike Jones playing the guitar
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: at me and I don't. It's not my favorite. And
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: in terms of intersectional feminism, where is it where you know?
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: One feels almost generous. But I'll give it one, and
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: I'll give it to Amy Adam's character. I wish you're
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: the best. I hope she quit her job.
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Mona, how about you.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna give it again. I haven't watched many movies
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: really really relevant context deale. I'm gonna give it three
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 4: because I don't think it's quite beautifully sure. I think
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 4: the acting is good. I think that if the waiting
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 4: is self aware, it's good. But we can't possibly know.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 3: It's just not clear enough.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: It's so hard to know. Is how much does Spike
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: Jones know himself? I've never I never thought I would
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: devote this much time trying to get to the bottom
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: of that.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 3: Oh goodness, well mana, thank you so much for joining
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: us in this discussion.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: It's a blast.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 3: Come back anytime if you feel like watching a second movie.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if there's a movie that's on your list and
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: you need an excuse, let us know Hook.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 4: I feel like, what what if you need someone who
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 4: had only really watched Hook and a few other things.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 4: Where would you, both of you, with your giving your
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 4: vas vast reorcords were, where would you recommend I start?
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, my gosh, every.
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 2: We'll send you a list.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, we'll just have to. We'll curate a list
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 3: for you.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: I Frankenstein. So all the movies that are covered to
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: I had are bad movies I love.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 3: I would say, I would say Paddington and Shrek to
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 3: call back to our celebrity friends that we would are
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 3: so like, But yeah, where can people check out your work,
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 3: follow you on social media, et cetera.
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 4: Weaving out, spend time with loved ones, not on screens.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 3: That is such a good call.
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: That's the real lesson of her log out.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 3: And speaking of normally we would plug our Instagram and
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 3: our Patreon, but instead we're going to really focus on
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 3: plugging the Midwest tour that you can come to in
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 3: person and meet us in person.
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: And there's many stories of friends and even lovers meeting
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 2: at Bechtel Cash shows. This is true over the years,
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: and so it actually really does make me feel good
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: when we go to shows and you like meet people
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: after were like, I came alone and then I made friends.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 3: You're like, ough love that, it's beautiful.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: Come to the live shows. It's a good hang.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, we're doing shows in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 3: at the end of August early September. You can grab
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 3: tickets at link tree Slash Bechdel Cast.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: And with that, let's all good at Ai Heaven. Let's
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: break up with Jaquin Phoenix.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 3: Yes please, Okay, bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 3: production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus,
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 3: produced by Sophie lock German, edited by Molaboord. Our theme
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 3: song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski.
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 3: Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 3: a special thanks to Aristotle Assevedo for more information about
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 3: the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash Bechtelcast