Latest / Finding New Waters / Unmasking Imposter Syndrome: Empowering Lawyers to Overcome Self-Doubt with Nicki Ellington

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Unmasking Imposter Syndrome: Empowering Lawyers to Overcome Self-Doubt with Nicki Ellington · Finding New Waters

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Impostor syndrome and ultimately to me, I would Define it.
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As this experience is feeling and these thoughts that despite
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your whatever external successes that you've been having, despite
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whatever achievements that you've accomplished, that you
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internally feel not good enough like you don't deserve it.
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Like you're a fraud. The people are going to find out
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at some point and I'm everyone will know that you're a big
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phony. Tony.
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And this is something that I talked with lawyers about
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probably on a daily basis. It probably comes up in one
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capacity or another and almost every single group that I run
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every single assessment individual session.
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It's so commonly experienced and there really doesn't seem to be
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any groups of lawyers that don't experience it.
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Our goal in creating finding new Waters is to provide a resource
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for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a
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loved one struggling with substance use or mental health
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when we find ourselves in crisis, due to one of these
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issues. Most people have no idea where
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to turn We hope to shed some light on to what is often The
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Darkest Hour for many families Nikki Ellington has been
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Eastern. Clinical coordinator with the
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lawyer assistance program since 2014, she is duly licensed
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mental health and addictions therapist and has been
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practicing in the mental health field for the past 17 years.
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Miss Arlington, worked in a wide variety of outpatient settings
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with particular experience, treating professionals and
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Special Forces Services members through her employment with the
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United States Army misung. Tin provides a confidential
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Mental Health. service to any judge lawyer or a law student in
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the eastern half of the state, which encompasses High Point to
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the Outer Banks, If you only didn't thank you for joining us
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here on finding new Waters having me.
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Yeah. Great.
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So I think it's always helpful for our listeners to know more
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about you. So can you tell us a little bit
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about your background and what kind of work you're doing with
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the LA p.m.? Yeah.
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Definitely. So as you mentioned I've been in
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the mental health field for the last 17 years and have had a lot
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of really good experiences mostly in Outpatient Treatment,
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been able to do a lot of His work throughout my career mental
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health, as well. And at the lawyers assistance
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program, I've been here for eight years and we provide free
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and confidential. I'll say it twice.
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Confidential mental health support to any lawyer in the
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state and my job is awesome. I love my job.
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I love working with the attorneys in the professionals
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and I feel really grateful to be able.
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Able to provide a safe space for lawyers to get the help that
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they need. That's awesome.
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So, what does that look like? Can you tell us a little bit?
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Like you know, if a lawyer is struggling.
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Like, how does that? How does that process work?
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Yeah, so most of the attorneys that I work with are
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self-referred. So they've heard about us, our
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programs actually been around since the 70s and it started, it
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started originally out of Alcoholics Anonymous with 112
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stepping one lawyer 12 stepping another when in need Need and
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then over the years, it's morphed into this much larger
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entity. We have licensed staff now and
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we are able to provide services really for all types of mental
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health issues. So most of the time, now the
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attorneys have just heard about us Eunice at different
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continuing education programs seen as at the law schools and
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are able to come in and say hey I'm dealing with something, I
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would like a little extra help so that is the majority of the
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folks that I see that's also very cool.
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So I gotta tell you, I had the honor to speak at LEP conference
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in the fall in Asheville. And frankly, I was terrified
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experience. I was thinking, I'm going to be
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standing up talking about new material in front of a group of
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lawyers. And as a doctor, I've been
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trained to fear lawyers intensely and I could not have
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been more wrong. The group there was so Only so
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energetic. I said down to earth and we just
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had a great time together. I loved it and I was shocked at
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how inviting and fun the people in the room were which to me is
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so like the opposite of what I would expect being a
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professional thinking, you know, if I, if I have a substance use
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disorder that the medical board is going to make my life very
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Very challenging. I am out, would be terrified of
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referring myself to the board and and but here, I'm looking at
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you and you seem so friendly and open and inviting and I just
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feel so confused. So how do you talk to people
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about the process of making contact with LAPD?
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Because for me I can't even imagine what that would be like.
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Yeah I mean honestly I do have to convince people and tell them
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many times. Times that we are confidential,
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which is cool. I'm glad to do that, but we
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truly truly, are we are not the secret.
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Police should look waiting for you in the wings, trying to get
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you, although our program is funded through the State Bar, we
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are separate and private. So anybody that works.
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So and the State Bar is the licensing body for attorneys.
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So any attorney that works with me their name, anything that we
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talk about it's all completely private and confidential does
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not get reported Back to the State Bar at all.
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So, and even, you know, there are rare exceptions where we may
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have a lawyer that is involved with some sort of disciplinary
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action. And even in those cases, I don't
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even, like to use the word mandated, because ultimately,
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they still have to agree. They still have to agree to work
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with us and agreed to allow me to communicate back to the State
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Bar, the basics of their compliance with our program, but
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that's very few and far between. I see, I mean on average I would
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say I probably see two to three new lawyers each week and out of
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all those attorneys. I probably like right now, I
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probably only have four that are dealing with some sort of
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disciplinary action, that's directly related to their mental
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health. So it's yeah.
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Majority are self-referred and I think my observation as an
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outsider looking in, has been the lap has done a good job over
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the years of trying to really reinstate that we are
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confidential and Reinforce that for the attorneys in the
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community so hopefully they can trust us.
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Yeah, that's a huge resource. Yeah, it is.
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So have have Elite mental health professionals there for you to
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support your profession and your career and it's confidential.
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Yep. That's a huge blessing.
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Yeah. Well, in the other benefit,
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like, you got to see our conference, and a lot of the
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all, almost all of the attorneys.
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There are folks that had been working with us for a long
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period of Time anywhere two plus years.
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So we also have this wonderful network of lawyers who are
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trying to lead healthy lives which is so cool that we can
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provide that space safe space for another attorney to like
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raise their hand and say, you know, I could use a little extra
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help and we're able to provide that hope that like yeah, you
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can get some extra help in your life can get better.
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And does it mean that life is always going to be perfect?
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But we've got a support system to help you.
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Do it and a group of your peers to show you that it's safe and
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that it's okay to not have to act like you have your stuff
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together all the time. Yeah.
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So Nikki I know, one thing that's been one thing that
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you've wanted to talk about today is the impostor syndrome.
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I know you've been kind of passionate about that.
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There's been some some talking that you've done recently about
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that. So, maybe, maybe share a little
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bit with us about what's on your mind.
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Yeah. I this has been something that I
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feel like lawyers and professionals generally.
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Dealt with, you know, for a maybe forever for a really long
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time. And then now that more people
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are talking about it, we've got this nice catchy name for and
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imposter syndrome. And ultimately to me I would
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Define it as This experience is feeling and these thoughts that
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despite your whatever external successes that you've been
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having, despite whatever achievements that you've
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accomplished, that you internally feel not good enough
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like you don't deserve it like you're a fraud.
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The people are going to find out at some point and everyone will
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know that you're a big phony and this is something that I talked
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with lawyers about probably on a daily.
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Isis. It probably comes up in one
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capacity or another and almost every single group that I run in
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every single assessment individual session.
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It's so commonly experienced and there really doesn't seem to be
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any groups of lawyers that don't experience it at some point me,
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I would say that everyone does but even the people that on the
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outside, look, the most successful, the Super Lawyers,
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like, even them are having these same Feelings of insecurity and
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anxiety about their performance and their worth.
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I'm so it can be really paralyzing.
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So I think at lap this is come up so frequently also because
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they're able to say I'm having these feelings and everyone else
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in the room is just not on their head like, yep.
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Me too. I get it.
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Like we've all been there. We get it.
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And were able to kind of share. How can we deal with that and
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bounce ideas off one? Another about what's worked and
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for them, it's awesome. When I saw you're interested,
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imposter syndrome. I was actually surprised because
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I was thinking an impostor syndrome is something I hear
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more about like an Instagram, like Tick-Tock like just kind of
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popular media platforms. And usually, talking to people
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who are college young adult like early career.
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And so that, the idea that impostor syndrome comes up a lot
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in your work, working with lawyers who are early in their
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recovery. I was like, what's the
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connection Between alcohol substances process addiction and
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impostor syndrome. You know, I don't know that the
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connection is with addiction. Honestly, I could go across the
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board. I see this with individuals that
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are dealing with depression and anxiety, trauma substance use, I
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mean, really, anything under the sun, and then stress on Ivory,
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I've thought a lot about it, and I feel like for attorneys and
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Professionals in general. They are dealing with a
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different kind of stress, and although I feel like a lot of
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jobs are stressful, there's a particular personality and, you
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know, not not all lawyers are the same, but there's been
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enough patterns of personalities that I've observed that I think
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is drawn to the law. So perfectionism being an
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overachiever being a type, a person A lot of lawyers tend to
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fall in that category when they enter Law School.
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They're kind of mixed with all the other folks that are in that
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same category. And my, you know, I went to
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school to be a therapist which is a totally different
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experience. It going to law school.
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We're all about the feelings, you know.
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They're like no feelings just logic but at La in law school
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they the way that the teaching style there.
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I think also doesn't set them up for a lot of success, with the
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competition dealing with competition, it can be For a lot
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of people very competitive. It can feel very shaming if you
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don't know the answers. If you don't get things right
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now, I think my observation has been that.
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I think law schools are trying to shift away from that model
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and I have got hope around that. But it's been a long time that
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they've been functioning in that framework and so it takes a long
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time for change to happen. Absolutely.
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So I think we kind of combined those two together and It's this
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recipe for disaster when they enter the practice of law of
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just this. Like I don't know what I'm
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doing. I don't know you know and I've
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heard a lot of lawyers say that in law school they teach you how
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to think like a lawyer. They don't teach you how to be a
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lawyer interesting. They enter this world where it's
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a whole new experience and for a lot of folks that are
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overachievers in our perfectionist, they've not
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really had the experience of failing.
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They've not really had that. Been so in the answer law and
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they're like, I don't know how to do calendar call.
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I don't know how to write this brief or whatever.
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I'm not good with the examples all the time but the logs ampuls
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but you know that can really throw them.
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It can really throw them for a loop and that sense of
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insecurity seems to persist. Yeah on it and it can be
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addressed and dealt with, I don't know that I've seen it
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ever. Ali go away completely but it
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becomes way more manageable with treatment with talking about it
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with practicing alternative coping mechanisms for dealing
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with it. So hopefully that describes it a
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little bit in my hunch about. It was imposter syndrome.
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Me being a recovering person for impostor syndrome.
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It is so painful to live with it, right?
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It's it's work is stressful enough and managing a Imposter
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syndrome on top of work just makes things unmanageable.
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Yep it's so stressful and I know that where there's pain there's
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self-medication right? And so the Imposter syndrome
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like a stressful day of feeling like you don't belong at work,
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you don't belong in your practice along with your
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partners. Great.
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Time to go and have a drink. Yep.
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That is for sure. It is for sure.
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And it's this like self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
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Like, I feel like a fraud, so I certainly can't let anybody know
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I'm a fraud. So I have to, like, overachieve
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and overcompensate and work extra, so everyone knows and I'm
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here, and I'm doing a good job and do all this, adding more and
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more and more, and more to the plate.
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But then having that relief, you know, substances are the perfect
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way. Right.
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Perfect way. It's fast.
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It's predictable, right? It's on demand, exactly.
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It's going to give me that kind of numb out avoidant, relaxed
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state, right? That a lot of people are looking
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for that escaped escapism for sure.
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But the irony is then you when you are so encumbered by
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alcohol, then then you really don't belong.
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Yes. In the practice, like you really
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dumped along with holding the responsibility of a huge legal
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question, right? Yes, it.
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Yes. I think it takes them a long
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time. A lot of lawyers takes them a
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long time to get to that point where they are able to recognize
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that. I think the denial system.
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I mean, it's strong for a lot, most addicts and alcoholics of
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course, but the rationalizations for lawyers, I my observation
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has been really embedded in not just their personality but also
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the culture of practicing law, you know, alcohol use in
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particular is very integrated into the practice where, you
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know, you're taking clients out. And I think it's often on Shown
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as a way to deal with stress. Like, you know, I've had a hard
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day, I'm going to go get a drink, you know, that's so we're
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kind of like laying that in cement when we're newly in the
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field that this is how we deal with stress, or it's a way, a
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lot of people deal with stress and that then.
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So then how do you know if you're going to be the person
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that can leave it there and have the one drink or if over time
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you're not able to do that anymore.
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Right. Right.
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Right. So I think the other piece is
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that for Her lawyers and alcohol use in particular.
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It's this big secret because they don't want others to know,
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like, how bad it is and they're able to rationalize like.
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Well, I only drink after five, I mean, I only drink when I got
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all my obligations done. Right.
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And then I'll drink, or I still pay all my bills.
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So, like, that should be fine. I go to all my kids sports
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games. That's fine.
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You know, I don't drink in the morning, I'm not like that,
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right? So it's this constant.
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The two of like, am I really? I'm not like that.
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I'm not that bad. I don't need to do all that, you
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know? And that's not how it looks for
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most lawyers. Most lawyers do not end up being
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the guy under a bridge, right? Most of the time when I see the
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real serious external negative consequences from substance use,
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they're usually so far down the rabbit hole of addiction that
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their whole life is a complete mess.
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So I think we're doing better about being able to address that
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sooner so that we're not on fire when we're going to get help.
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And but, you know, it's hard. It's hard to be able to
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challenge those denial that denial system.
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Yeah, I'm always super interested in what makes someone
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change like? What bring this that person that
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point I'm saying. Today is the day I'm going to
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call El AP like whereas like maybe the last three hundred
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seven hundred days of their life was the day that they could have
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called el AP. So why is it on day like 800 of
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the opportunity at that today? Is the day?
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Yeah, I'm curious like in your experience like what are the
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things going on in like the days and weeks leading up to that
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moment that people self-refer? Yep.
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You know, and that's almost always the first question I ask
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people is like, what's been going on in your life.
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Most Certainly that made you want to reach out now and
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usually it's a lot of pain and suffering.
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It's like they've reached this point where it's like, okay I
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know that I cannot fix this on my own now and I need some help
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but with lawyers, you know, that's can take a long time for
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them to recognize that they are in a helping profession, they
19:33
are the fixers the problem solvers, they're the people that
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all their clients are going to to fix their As they're in their
19:40
personal lives, their family usually goes to them to help
19:43
them with their problems to be able to say.
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Not only that I cannot fix my problems because I for myself
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because I've tried to do that and I keep ending up in the same
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place if not worse. I also need to ask someone for
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help to do that. It takes a lot for them to get
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to that point. So a lot of pain and suffering.
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Another thing that I've seen help a lot, a lot of our
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Volunteers, the folks that you got to meet at our conference
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are so brave and willing to sacrifice their own anonymity
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and confidentiality to help others.
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So we have a great group of folks that are willing to get up
20:24
and share their stories and poems to other lawyers and every
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single time one of our lawyers does that, we get at least one
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phone call from someone in the audience that says, I heard this
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person and that's me. And I can relate to that and It.
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You helped him so or her so I'm hopeful that you can help me
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too. Yeah, it's powerful.
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That's better. Absolutely.
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What about specifically with the The Imposter syndrome?
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I know you talked about maybe people don't necessarily, you
20:56
know, kind of fully get over it or whatever.
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But what do you feel or what have you seen like in your
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practice and working with the attorneys that helps them kind
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of shift or move through that? Yeah, I think the first Thing is
21:09
being able to recognize it. Hmm.
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So a lot of the times we have this inner critic that is
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telling us that we're not good enough and I think in the very
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early stages of it, folks don't even really realize that it's
21:24
not real, that it's not based in reality, you know, they think.
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No, really. I'm not good enough.
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Like no, that's a fact, and when they're able to slowly, let
21:33
people in to see that side of them, then others are usually
21:37
able to kind of question. Like, Like well wait didn't you
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tell me that you've you know you have had all these successes you
21:44
did get into law school, there's a certain bar you have to meet
21:47
to get into law school. They let you in one of my
21:50
co-workers Candace I'll steal one of her stories she shares
21:55
about experiencing imposter syndrome on our we have a
21:58
podcast as well and told the story about how when she went to
22:03
law school. And she told this professor you
22:05
know I really don't think I'm supposed to be here.
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I feel like you know like you guys Definitely probably messed
22:11
up in getting exhibiting me in here and the professor's like
22:16
okay. So you think not only that you
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know, better than us who accepted you with the first
22:23
place but that you're so smart that you tricked us all.
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She's like, hmm. Okay.
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She tells the story way better, of course.
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But I mean to me that's like the perfect example of what that
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feels like. So when you're able to
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recognize, I think so awareness. I think is the First Step, okay,
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being able to notice like, okay, this inner critic is happening,
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can I evaluate if it's based in facts?
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Then being able to say, all right, I feel like I've made a
22:54
mistake or or I've had a failure, a bad experience, is
22:59
that based in facts. So I'll give another example of
23:02
that where I had a lawyer, contact me that I've been
23:08
working with for a while. And the attorney said called me
23:11
one day and said, I just lost my case, I'm a horrible lawyer.
23:16
I should just quit. I should never do this again.
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I'm clearly not meant to practice law.
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I just need to leave and you know eventually if I keep going
23:25
on, probably just gonna get this part anyways, I'm like okay,
23:28
let's slow down. Tell me what happened so you
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lost your case. Okay, well, it seems to me, you
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know, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me there's always a
23:38
winner or Zur, these things. Did you make from you?
23:42
From what you can tell? Did you make any major mistakes?
23:44
Was there anything that happened?
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That went terribly wrong that you did the return.
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He's like, no, I'm like okay. Well so it seems to me like you
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tried your best. You did your best.
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We haven't noticed any major mistakes.
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There's a winner, and a loser, you are the loser, this time,
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and that's how it works, right? And that and it doesn't
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necessarily mean it's because you did something wrong, right,
24:05
right. Could be a variety of reasons
24:07
that cause you to not win this game?
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I'm in the does it mean anything about your worth or your skill
24:13
as a lawyer? So being able to kind of have
24:18
that awareness and then being able to evaluate the facts is I
24:24
think the next step. Now a lot of the times like for
24:27
this attorney, they really weren't able to evaluate the
24:29
facts for themselves. So they had to like phone a
24:32
friend. They phoned me, and we have a
24:34
whole, you know, all of our volunteers do that for each
24:37
other where they're able to say. In a group or, or call a friend,
24:42
or call one of our mentors and kind of talk through.
24:46
This is what happened. This is how I feel.
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I feel like I've messed up. I feel like I'm not good enough
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and somebody else can then reflect back, you know, the
24:57
facts what's based in reality and I think the more that you
25:01
practice that the easier it gets over time.
25:04
The faster you're able to move through it.
25:06
I think, in the beginning a lot of the times it can really Take
25:09
with you, it can ruin your mood for your whole day, maybe longer
25:14
and it just lingers and and you're able to really move
25:18
through it faster and kind of be able to practice letting it go.
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And the other thing, a lot of our lawyers have been doing
25:26
that. I find to be very effective.
25:28
Is practicing mindfulness and meditation, okay?
25:31
So being able to, especially when like, to plan ahead.
25:37
So if, you know, you've got something really difficult, On
25:39
your calendar coming up or something really challenging for
25:42
you planning in your day. I'm going to take the five
25:45
minutes after this concludes and the five minutes, maybe even the
25:49
five minutes before five minutes after just practice some
25:52
mindfulness practice just sitting with my thoughts and
25:55
letting the feelings wash over me and not attach them.
25:58
And practice, letting it go. That can be very effective.
26:03
That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of
26:05
mindfulness and meditation. I know dr.
26:07
Hong is absolutely, that's always Freshing to hear that
26:10
where that helps, right? Yeah, it's so shocking to how we
26:16
are as humans so easily disconnected from reality.
26:20
It sounds absurd, but it's so true, right?
26:24
Like, we can get into our minds that all these things are
26:28
definitely going to happen and we can get into our minds that.
26:31
I am definitely not the right person or I'm definitely not
26:36
equipped for this this task at hand. and then a minute of
26:41
reconnecting intention with reality, it's like oh like I
26:46
used to think all these things but now I think these things and
26:50
this is more functional, more realistic eye and I feel more
26:53
confident and this is more realistic than this scary
26:56
version of reality. Yeah.
26:58
But for some reason some of us are so much more inclined to go
27:03
this way then this way. Yeah yeah.
27:06
Like what what's your hunch about?
27:09
Like lawyers and like you've worked with tier one special
27:13
forces people. In your background.
27:17
I know this is a very common thing across the Spectrum.
27:19
So what is it about like high expectations, High Talent, High
27:23
Drive people that gets them disconnected from reality.
27:28
Yeah, I mean, I think part of it, it's, I always feel like
27:35
it's both nature and nurture, sure.
27:37
So for me, I often feel like there probably is some stuff in
27:43
family of origin. Ian that contributes to the
27:46
wiring of our brain that leads to us being maybe a little bit
27:51
more anxious, a little bit more inclined to want to detach from
27:57
reality to avoid. So I think that's definitely a
28:01
contributing factor is that maybe we weren't set up for
28:05
Success, completely from our family of origin and that sticks
28:10
with us, you know, that's especially when it's happening,
28:13
you know, early childhood. It's like laying in cement in
28:16
our brain and we have to really figure out ways to rewire that
28:20
as we get older. I think the other factor is
28:24
personality on. I think person, those
28:27
personality traits, some of them are just a part of us like
28:32
having the desire to want to do things.
28:35
Right. The first time, I remember I
28:38
have a ten-year-old son and when he first started school, I
28:42
remember him sitting at the Table and doing some school
28:46
project and instantly getting frustrated, because he couldn't
28:50
do it perfectly the first time in, crumbling up the paper and
28:53
throwing it across the room, and I was like, oh my god, look what
28:56
is happening. But you know how to me, that was
28:59
the perfect example of how this is a part of who he is.
29:03
I don't think any we made him that way, it was just kind of
29:08
there but being able to anyways. So I think that's the other
29:12
piece. This also the Self-efficacy this
29:16
belief that you can be successful in.
29:18
Can do things. Some people have a greater
29:21
amount of self-efficacy naturally than others.
29:24
True. I'm so being able to kind of
29:28
recognize that, anyways, I think that's a contributing factor to
29:32
why someone might be in that. Yeah, those desires.
29:36
It affect how they relate to their their spouses, their
29:40
Partners, their kids, or is it just a major issue?
29:44
Are you at work? I mean, I don't know that it
29:49
could be that isolated in siloed, it bleeds into all areas
29:54
of our life and the more the longer it goes, It goes
29:58
untreated, whether it be our substance use or anxiety or
30:00
depression impostor, syndrome, whatever stress.
30:04
It's inevitable that it's going to bleed into other areas of our
30:09
life and become worse over time without treatment.
30:13
We, you know, doing nothing about it, is not going to lead
30:16
to just Just miraculous spontaneous change, most of the
30:19
time, not my life anyways. So yeah, I think it does affect
30:27
their relationships and that might also be part of the denial
30:31
system that keeps them sick. Longer is like, well my you
30:35
know. Yeah, I drink after my kid goes
30:37
to bed or You know. Yeah, sure.
30:41
I'm at work until 9:00 every night but that can't have an
30:47
impact on my family. They, you know, they know I love
30:50
them and it's like, well, yeah, they do to some degree and this
30:54
also does have an impact impact on others.
30:58
Absolutely. Yeah.
31:01
I was just thinking about the family of an upper like an
31:05
affluent well-to-do family. The parent.
31:10
That's a lawyer has a drinking problem and how terrifying it
31:15
would be to call name it a problem.
31:19
Yeah. Because what will the
31:23
neighborhood think? What will the partners at the
31:26
firm? Think what happens to all these
31:29
memberships and they price? Yep.
31:33
And I could see that. What is, how do you navigate
31:36
that with the family? Absolutely, I think that is a
31:39
huge. Huge barrier to lawyers, getting
31:41
help. I think their fear that other
31:46
people are going to know that I have a problem that I cannot fix
31:50
for myself and that I'm going to need extra help around or I
31:55
think that's a huge challenge for them to process and work
31:58
through. Yeah, the one one benefit of
32:04
being able to come to laugh is that we are?
32:06
We're all like they're all in there together.
32:09
And there they have all kind of lived through that experience of
32:13
having to kind of say. Yeah, it is hard for people to
32:17
know and a lot of it too is like that's your disease of
32:23
alcoholism. Keeping you sick.
32:25
Yeah. That ultimately know, most
32:28
people that don't have a drinking problem, don't care.
32:31
They don't care. They really don't.
32:34
They're not thinking about you like that extensively.
32:38
Most of the Time, they're not watching you at the business.
32:42
Meeting to see if you're consuming alcohol.
32:45
And what I always remind people do is if someone does tend to
32:48
comment or give you a hard time about not drinking usually
32:51
probably because they have a drinking problem.
32:53
Exactly. You know you're the mirror like
32:57
so it's being able to talk about it.
33:02
I think helps being when we are able to name it, we were able to
33:07
say it, gives it less power. Mhm.
33:09
We're able to do that in a safe place like lap.
33:12
Like your new Waters. Then we're able to really move
33:14
through it and get the help that we need.
33:17
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
33:19
I could imagine how disarming that can potentially be for
33:21
somebody if they're, you know, holding on.
33:23
So so tightly so rigid about like this belief about their
33:27
self and not needing not wanting to let this out.
33:30
But then, like you said, being able to come into a group where
33:32
it's like, oh we're all the same.
33:33
We're all dealing with the same stuff with.
33:35
Yeah. And with substance abuse in
33:37
particular, I think. Think a lot of the lawyers they
33:41
really feel like they're doing a good job hiding it.
33:45
But they're really not. No people.
33:49
No. Yeah.
33:50
People know already to some degree, they probably do have an
33:55
idea and it's and I try to help them to see like wouldn't you
34:00
much rather people know you as the a healthy version of you
34:04
than a person who's sick? Then a person who smelling like
34:07
alcohol in the elevator at the courthouse?
34:09
In the person that, you know, is sneaking out to get beers at
34:13
lunch versus someone like that's going to therapy and getting
34:18
help. Like, I'd rather someone know me
34:19
like that. Yeah, absolutely.
34:21
Yeah, absolutely. I think that, that's one of the
34:25
things about impostor syndrome is like the only thing worse
34:27
than feeling like you don't belong.
34:30
Is other people seeing that you don't belong or other people
34:34
believing that but all of this is just in our own thinking.
34:38
Yeah. Like you're saying like people
34:40
don't think like that, like they're really not and they
34:44
would much rather have you whole and healthy and recovered then
34:50
struggling and slowly burning yourself out, I'm trying to
34:54
juggle all these problems simultaneously and convincing
34:58
them of that especially when I'm dealing with an attorney that I
35:01
believe could really benefit from going to inpatient
35:03
treatment that can be a big barrier.
35:07
Where are they? Have a lot of reasons why they
35:11
should not go. A lot of them are valid, they do
35:14
have important cases, they do work a lot.
35:17
They they will be missed to some degree if they take the time off
35:21
to get the care that they need and I probably send myself and I
35:28
have a counterpart Cathy that works at the Charlotte office.
35:30
But I would say I probably sent between 10 and 20 attorneys each
35:33
year to treatment and patient treatment.
35:36
Life goes on. Yeah Life Goes On.
35:39
The Firm goes on and we have options to help you through
35:44
that. Especially a lot of solo
35:46
practitioners folks that are in their own firm with no
35:49
administrative help. Really get stuck in that mindset
35:53
that I cannot take this time off.
35:56
And there are some real challenging situations that
35:59
would make it difficult. And we will do our very best at
36:02
lap to support you to brainstorm ways that we can support.
36:05
It you to help you to get the help that you need versus
36:09
staying stuck. Because you feel like you can't
36:11
go because you can't financially afford it, because you can't
36:13
take the time off because you can't not collect a new business
36:18
for the folks that do take that healthy risk and go get the
36:21
help. They need, I've never seen them
36:24
look back and say my life is worse now.
36:28
Never right? That's awesome.
36:31
Yeah. Well especially in this thought
36:34
that just came up. We're talking is the especially
36:38
like the Imposter syndrome piece.
36:39
I think I wonder how much like just desensitization maybe helps
36:43
with that. Like for example, like, you
36:47
know, I can't let these people know that I'm not good enough.
36:50
So I have to overcompensate blah, blah, blah, blah.
36:53
And then what if they leaned into, you know what?
36:56
If I just ask for help, right? Or what if I do actually take
36:59
time to focus on my mental health or physical health and
37:02
things like that. So I wonder seeing those
37:04
individuals that is eternal. Ernie's that do recover?
37:07
Do turn their lives around? Do you find kind of a like an
37:10
over portion or overwhelming? Part of those people like be
37:14
able to kind of handle that stuff?
37:16
Better for sure. Yeah, I think I asked, my
37:19
opinion is asking for help is a skill absent.
37:22
That is a skill that not everybody knows and especially
37:26
within the practice of Law and I could imagine in lots of other
37:30
types of professions, it's not really ingrained in the culture
37:33
of that practice practice. A lot to ask for help.
37:37
So that is Skillet has to be learned.
37:40
And I think the lawyers that go to treatment, that get help
37:43
that, that participate and support groups, they are
37:47
learning that. And that doesn't mean that it's
37:50
always going to be easy. Sure.
37:52
And another benefit of being amongst your peers, is there
37:56
some accountability there that somebody else can say?
38:00
Well, have you think about asking for help in that
38:02
situation and then you're able to say, oh, No, I really wanted
38:07
to buckle down and do it myself, but I'm so you have other people
38:10
that can reflect back that. Maybe remind that, maybe this
38:15
would be a good time to try. Go get back on that, horse of
38:20
asking, for help and using crazy coping mechanisms.
38:23
Mmm-hmm, that's great, that's good stuff.
38:27
We all need a little accountability and support for
38:30
sure, sometimes our family members or our Our partners see
38:37
it way before we do. Can they reach out to LA p?
38:43
Yeah, anonymously or sick. Have a friend.
38:46
If you've ever had one of those situations, can you tell us
38:49
about a story about how that worked out?
38:50
Yeah, for sure. And family member spouse has
38:56
even other attorneys will call us that hole.
39:01
Conversation can be confidential, okay?
39:04
And I'm able to kind of process with them.
39:06
What's the best, Avenue to handle it.
39:09
So I can think of I have several examples where that has
39:12
happened. I can think of one in particular
39:14
where a wife called about her husband, that was suffering from
39:21
alcoholism, and really entrenched in it.
39:24
And and really was scaring her. It was a pretty scary situation,
39:31
not for her physical safety, but for his own health and she was
39:36
afraid he was going to die. Yeah.
39:38
And she was able to call and we were able to help stage an
39:41
intervention for this attorney to go to treatment and
39:46
thankfully he did and we were able to kind of help her through
39:50
the process of navigating getting into treatment that in
39:53
itself, can be a really difficult thing to navigate,
39:56
being able to know, where do I even go?
39:58
Who do I call Great? What about my insurance?
40:01
Who's going to pay for that, you know.
40:03
So we are able to, we are kind of Kathy and I at the to
40:07
clinicians at lap are kind of the boots on the ground within
40:10
the treatment industry to give guidance about like, this might
40:13
be a great place for your significant other based on what
40:16
you're telling me about him. And we're also able to provide
40:20
some extra support to the spouse that What we can do when we're
40:26
living with someone that's in active addiction.
40:28
Because unfortunately, you're not always going to be ready
40:31
when you want them, right? Probably rarely are ready
40:34
whenever you'd like them to be ready.
40:36
So we're able to kind of help them process that as well by
40:38
pro-us providing support, but also providing resources to this
40:43
significant other Other lawyers will have reason to call
40:48
sometimes too, when they're concerned about a colleague, and
40:51
we're also able to provide intervention confidentially and
40:57
in a safe way. We're able to keep the referral
40:59
source completely private. We do not report to anyone about
41:03
who has called okay, about the lawyer that they're worried
41:06
about on lawyers, get in trouble sometimes too and people tend to
41:13
know when that happened so we're able to kind Of say offer a
41:16
hand, that's how I would put it. Yeah.
41:18
We can't force anyone to do anything, we're the carrot, not
41:22
the stick. So we're able to kind of say,
41:24
hey, we've heard you're having a hard time, whether it be myself
41:28
or one of our lawyer, volunteers that volunteer, the same
41:32
confidentiality policy that I do at lap.
41:35
Okay, they're able to kind of reach out and say hey we're have
41:37
heard, you're struggling and we're here to help if you'd like
41:41
it and you know they may not always want to take us up on
41:45
that. I in that moment, but I will say
41:48
majority of them. Do come around at some point
41:51
will usually keep that phone number.
41:53
That's awesome. And if down the road when they
41:55
become a little more ready or have experience unfortunately
41:58
maybe a little more pain and suffering.
42:00
Sure. And they pick up the phone and
42:01
call but I'm thinking about that that family that you, you helped
42:06
like the wife. They called, I mean it's you
42:09
literally saved your life. By setting in motion this
42:13
intervention, because the way that this person is going it
42:16
really ends One Way. Mmm, absolutely.
42:20
Well and I am very grateful to be a small piece and I really
42:26
look at it as a small piece because the attorney is the one
42:30
that has to do, all the hard work and heavy lifting, we're
42:33
just kind of leading the horse to water.
42:35
I can't make any of them drink, but we can show them the way we
42:40
can show them the light. We can show them that, there's
42:43
hope and that it gets better and it really, really does it gets
42:47
better. And it's not, you know, as you
42:50
guys are well aware, it's not this linear path upward.
42:53
There's bumps along the way. And that's another piece of our
42:57
program is that there's no time limit.
43:00
We work with people indefinitely.
43:02
So, even those folks that we're at our conference, Folks at I've
43:06
known for eight years that I've been involved with lap for 30
43:09
years are still going to experience.
43:11
Life and have bumps along the way and we are always there to
43:16
support them through it. No matter what's going on.
43:19
Yeah. Because we all need that love
43:22
and compassion. We do you do we a lot of us are
43:28
raised to not know that. A lot of us are raised to think
43:31
you study hard. You work hard, you pay your
43:34
bills and that's all you need. No excuses, right?
43:39
But there's so much more. Yeah than that.
43:41
Not yet in life becomes so much more fulfilling and joyful when
43:45
we're able to kind of accept the help and move through the change
43:50
and give ourselves Grace. That's the other thing that with
43:54
lawyers, lawyers are so hard on themselves.
43:58
That's one thing that I notice really across the board and
44:03
that, you know, that perfectionism overachieving it's
44:06
so lined up, but so hard on themselves and ultimately just
44:10
give yourself Little Grace. It's okay, yeah, it's okay to
44:14
not be perfect and did not have it all together and it's there's
44:17
no expectation of that. We don't have any expectation
44:20
that we can help you to learn how to not have that for
44:23
yourself, right? Which is huge, because that's, I
44:27
mean, I can only imagine, that's a miserable way to live.
44:30
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
44:34
Yeah. That's part of the disease,
44:36
right, right. The disease is to see yourself
44:39
unrealistically. And to overreact to the pain
44:43
that comes and not deal with the pain to begin with.
44:46
And and and at that point, I don't blame people for wanting
44:52
to intoxicate themselves out of that pain because it's awful,
44:56
it's awful. But recovery is seeing yourself
45:01
realistically and, and saying this conversation that I've been
45:04
having with myself for the past 10, 20 years.
45:06
It doesn't make sense. And I need to find a new way to
45:10
talk to myself. Yep, I think we all go through
45:14
that. Like that's kind of The Human
45:16
Experience, is some degree. It looked all have ways of
45:19
surviving that. As we get older become probably
45:25
ineffective and we can keep trying to force that square peg
45:29
into the round hole over and over again.
45:31
Or we can reach that point where we choose to do something
45:35
different. Because what we've been doing
45:37
isn't working for me, it's a survival mechanism.
45:40
That's not helping me to survive.
45:41
Anymore. Yeah.
45:43
Or maybe I want more than surviving.
45:44
I want to thrive and that's it's not going to be this way, right?
45:49
Yeah. But Nikki this has been amazing.
45:52
We talked about how dark life can be.
45:55
When we let impostor syndrome, take us all the way to where it
45:58
wants us to go. But you've also seen how it can
46:02
be completely different and full of life and fulfillment and LEP
46:07
is free professional and confidential.
46:11
What Gifted is for lawyers in North Carolina.
46:14
So thank you so much for being with us here today to talk about
46:16
it. Thank you so much for having me
46:19
and I'm so happy to be involved with new Waters and be a
46:25
supporter of your growth and success.
46:27
So thanks for having me. Thanks for coming.