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SMNTY Classics: SMNTY Files an Update on Divorce · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff
0:08
Speaker 1: and never told your reprection by Heart Radio, and today
0:16
Speaker 1: we're bringing back a classic that I still want to
0:21
Speaker 1: revisit with more depth. But it's about divorce. It is
0:27
Speaker 1: about how divorce works. And I'm not sure why this
0:33
Speaker 1: was on my mind. I do know that it has
0:36
Speaker 1: become a really political topic lately in the United States
0:42
Speaker 1: because even going back to Project twenty twenty five and
0:45
Speaker 1: stuff beyond that, they were trying to get the people
0:50
Speaker 1: who were behind that have been trying to get rid
0:53
Speaker 1: of ways that generally women could get out of abusive marriages.
1:01
Speaker 1: And in this episode, I particularly remember in my naivete,
1:07
Speaker 1: I didn't know that in some states there's like a
1:11
Speaker 1: year wait before you can get a divorce there. You
1:15
Speaker 1: have to go to counseling and sometimes it's religious counseling
1:18
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and it is coming back,
1:23
Speaker 1: is really coming back and forth, and I just I
1:28
Speaker 1: don't like it, Samantha. I don't like it. That's what
1:31
Speaker 1: I'll say.
1:33
Speaker 2: I'm with you.
1:35
Speaker 1: Yes, we are agreed on this front, but we are
1:39
Speaker 1: going to have to come back and revisit it. But
1:41
Speaker 1: for now, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is
1:49
Speaker 1: Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff. Never told you predicting
1:52
Speaker 1: to buy her radio. And today we're coming in swinging
2:05
Speaker 1: in the new year. We are talking about divorce in
2:09
Speaker 1: the United States and specifically how it impacts women. It
2:13
Speaker 1: is a topic we have been meaning to do for
2:16
Speaker 1: a while. I appreciate so much your patients because a
2:20
Speaker 1: lot of times I'll be like, yes, we're going to
2:22
Speaker 1: do that, and then a year later and like, here
2:24
Speaker 1: we finally are We do take care your suggestions. We
2:29
Speaker 1: absolutely do. Sometimes it just takes us a minute. And
2:33
Speaker 1: several of you have written in about it and thank
2:36
Speaker 1: you for sharing your experiences about your divorce. And recently
2:43
Speaker 1: I have gotten so many cold call emails about it.
2:46
Speaker 1: This is what we call emails where people are like,
2:50
Speaker 1: you should do a topic on this, and I was
2:51
Speaker 1: getting so many about divorce. I didn't know that the
2:55
Speaker 1: first Monday of January is divorce day? Did you know that?
3:00
Speaker 2: Not? I That seems so sad. At the same time, why.
3:06
Speaker 1: I'm depending on you, sman Thin You're the one who
3:08
Speaker 1: tells me about cuffings Heason. I don't know, but I
3:11
Speaker 1: based on what I read, which by the way as
3:15
Speaker 1: a recording. Divorce day was this past Monday. People hold
3:20
Speaker 1: off on getting the divorce until after the holidays, especially
3:23
Speaker 1: if they have kids, so it's sort of the it's
3:27
Speaker 1: a new year. I'm done with this. I would like
3:30
Speaker 1: to move on. Situation disclaimer. We are not lawyers. Neither
3:37
Speaker 1: of us have ever been married. Unless you have something
3:40
Speaker 1: to tell me.
3:41
Speaker 2: Unless you have something to tell me, no, between the
3:44
Speaker 2: two of us, you would be treated into a marriage
3:45
Speaker 2: before I was.
3:46
Speaker 1: I have been proposed to more than one, I'm sure,
3:50
Speaker 1: but I have never ever ever been married. I do
3:53
Speaker 1: have a friend who surprised me that she had been married.
3:56
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. My dad also was married before
3:58
Speaker 1: my mom, and I didn't know that. But anyway, I
4:01
Speaker 1: do not get your legal advice from a podcast.
4:05
Speaker 2: Please, oh my god, don't do it.
4:08
Speaker 1: Don't do it, even if it's a legal podcast. No,
4:12
Speaker 1: just look up other films.
4:15
Speaker 2: Different states have different outlines of what, yes, they're allowed
4:19
Speaker 2: to do.
4:20
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So originally I wanted to do how
4:26
Speaker 1: to get a divorce like step by step. I didn't
4:31
Speaker 1: realize how vastly that varies in the United States. So
4:39
Speaker 1: we're gonna put that on hold for a minute. I
4:41
Speaker 1: do want to come back and talk about it, because
4:44
Speaker 1: this is a huge topic. We are primarily focusing on
4:48
Speaker 1: the US. Listeners from other countries please write in I'm
4:51
Speaker 1: really curious and yeah, we're definitely gonna have to revisit
4:54
Speaker 1: it because the history of marriage, the religious aspects, the
4:59
Speaker 1: legal ass affects, how it has changed and how it
5:02
Speaker 1: hasn't changing. Your insurance, is your finances, maybe your name,
5:06
Speaker 1: your will, splitting your assets if you have them, child custody,
5:11
Speaker 1: the history of racism, of homophobia, of ableism. See our
5:16
Speaker 1: recent episode on disability and marriage. Like it's there's so
5:21
Speaker 1: much to unpack in this episode. We have done past
5:27
Speaker 1: episodes on some of these issues, but just know there
5:31
Speaker 1: are so many of these histories and influences enshrined in
5:34
Speaker 1: our laws in the US that still remain when you're
5:38
Speaker 1: trying to get a divorce. We are going to touch
5:41
Speaker 1: on LGBTQ plus divorce, but very briefly, that's a whole
5:45
Speaker 1: separate episode in itself, And frankly, when I was researching it,
5:49
Speaker 1: I mostly just got law websites that I I wasn't
5:54
Speaker 1: sure I could trustfully to be honest and that's not
5:57
Speaker 1: a great place to be in when you're trying to
6:00
Speaker 1: get a divorce. Yeah, so today we are mostly going
6:05
Speaker 1: to be talking about divorce in the heteronormative sense. You
6:09
Speaker 1: can see our book where we did a chapter on
6:14
Speaker 1: the legalization of gay marriage and all of the conversation
6:20
Speaker 1: arguments about that, so check that out. You can also
6:23
Speaker 1: see the episode we did on Glennon Doyle's book Untamed,
6:28
Speaker 1: and you can see our episode on some research that
6:32
Speaker 1: says single women are happier. Another thing to keep in
6:37
Speaker 1: mind as we go through this, and we are going
6:40
Speaker 1: to expound on it more, but divorce is hard emotionally, financially, legally,
6:45
Speaker 1: it takes up a lot of your time. Sometimes legally
6:50
Speaker 1: as in by law, it takes up a lot of
6:52
Speaker 1: your time. But it's not always bad, and we often
6:55
Speaker 1: frame it as a failure, especially for women. And you
6:58
Speaker 1: can see our Religious Trauma episode on divorce for more
7:01
Speaker 1: about that. Oh my, sometimes it is a good thing.
7:07
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt or it isn't difficult,
7:09
Speaker 1: but sometimes it's a net positive. On top of that,
7:12
Speaker 1: marriage isn't bad. Many people have happy marriages, but marriage
7:17
Speaker 1: has historically systemically favored men, and yes, the internet will
7:21
Speaker 1: tell you otherwise. We will talk about that more later.
7:26
Speaker 1: I personally haven't. I don't have a lot of experience
7:32
Speaker 1: with divorce other than a friend, one of my very
7:37
Speaker 1: close friends, her parents got divorced and it was really emotional.
7:41
Speaker 1: I at one time, which I'll talk about a bit
7:44
Speaker 1: more later, really wanted my parents to get a divorce.
7:47
Speaker 1: I thought it would have been better. But through media,
7:52
Speaker 1: I will say, I thought it was a negative thing.
7:55
Speaker 1: I thought it was always bad. And through doing this research,
8:01
Speaker 1: I have read many accounts by women where that is
8:04
Speaker 1: not the case. But what about your Samantha, do you
8:06
Speaker 1: have experienced thoughts Before we get into.
8:10
Speaker 2: This experienced thoughts, I will say, as a person who
8:14
Speaker 2: did work for CPS Top Protective Services, man, if you
8:20
Speaker 2: don't know if your marriage is not going to last,
8:22
Speaker 2: or if you have doubts about your marriage, don't have children.
8:26
Speaker 2: Like that's the way they use a lot of cases,
8:31
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to divorce, the way that children
8:35
Speaker 2: are used to manipulate a lot of honestly women, I
8:40
Speaker 2: mean both sides. I guess we can say both sides,
8:43
Speaker 2: but like we know that it's doing pregnancy and divorce
8:47
Speaker 2: that is the highest risk for the death of a spouse,
8:50
Speaker 2: the woman, specifically the wife. So like all of these things,
8:54
Speaker 2: and even with growing up in a household that said,
8:59
Speaker 2: you do not divorce no matter what, no matter what,
9:02
Speaker 2: like the only reason is for cheating, and even if that,
9:06
Speaker 2: you need witnesses to the cheating, and like he has
9:09
Speaker 2: to agree to the divorce as well, biblical level of
9:12
Speaker 2: like how to get a divorce is insane anyway, but
9:15
Speaker 2: like really coming and understanding as a person who didn't
9:19
Speaker 2: have many relationships growing up, that wasn't the most important
9:22
Speaker 2: thing for me, watching family members around me really trying
9:26
Speaker 2: to stick to that, even like condoning that life, Oh
9:29
Speaker 2: gave me the biggest dick. So I will say, as
9:37
Speaker 2: gross and as hard as divorce can feel, or you know,
9:41
Speaker 2: break ups, but divorce is a whole different conversation. Being
9:44
Speaker 2: stuck in a miserable relationship where you feel like you're
9:48
Speaker 2: trapped is even worse. And I can't imagine fifty sixty
9:53
Speaker 2: years ago when people were really really harping on that
9:55
Speaker 2: you have to stay together no matter what is death
9:57
Speaker 2: do you part, even if it's your death that he
10:01
Speaker 2: caused or they caused like it doesn't matter, it's so absurd.
10:05
Speaker 2: I'm glad to see that narrative changing a bit. I
10:08
Speaker 2: know everybody's still harping onto the but the divorce and
10:11
Speaker 2: the fifty percent and his cousin sin. Yeah, but with that,
10:20
Speaker 2: I think marriage is not overrated, but it's not for everyone.
10:27
Speaker 2: And I think that's a great reminder. This episode is
10:30
Speaker 2: a good reminder things change.
10:33
Speaker 1: That's what I'll also say. Yeah, and we're gonna we're
10:36
Speaker 1: gonna get into that because, as I said, this is
10:39
Speaker 1: a huge topic. This is actually more of a kind
10:42
Speaker 1: of an update on where divorce is in the United States, which, uh,
10:50
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about kind of differences that
10:52
Speaker 1: are really interesting between breakups and divorce when it comes
10:56
Speaker 1: to gender, because you know, divorce involves you going to
11:02
Speaker 1: core to file a document to like dissolve your marriage legally.
11:09
Speaker 1: It's actually pretty difficult to track divorce rates in the US,
11:13
Speaker 1: and that's not even accounting for separated couples because for
11:16
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons, people will separate but not get divorced.
11:20
Speaker 1: The estimate is currently around forty percent. A lot of
11:22
Speaker 1: times it's quoted at fifty, but they think it's actually
11:25
Speaker 1: closer to forty. Most sources indicate that divorces are less
11:29
Speaker 1: of a specific event and more often one partner deciding
11:34
Speaker 1: to leave, and historically the increase has gone up with
11:38
Speaker 1: women's evolving role in society. So there are a couple
11:43
Speaker 1: of reasons behind this why this might be. Some of
11:48
Speaker 1: them we're gonna get into a bit more, but just
11:50
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, I was thinking about
11:52
Speaker 1: like the history of marrying young older men marrying younger women,
11:56
Speaker 1: so like, as you grow older, maybe this isn't for you,
12:02
Speaker 1: the woman usually having to sacrifice for your family and
12:06
Speaker 1: for your children, being kind of indoctrinated with this idea
12:10
Speaker 1: that happiness is silly. You're not good enough to choose
12:13
Speaker 1: your own well being. That would be selfish. That ideal
12:18
Speaker 1: is kind of shifting. I think, who will care for
12:21
Speaker 1: your kids if you have them? Can you afford childcare?
12:24
Speaker 1: Who is getting paid more? I think these questions are
12:27
Speaker 1: more prevalent. I did see this. I'm going to talk
12:42
Speaker 1: about this more later, but when we were researching this,
12:46
Speaker 1: I saw a bunch of like magazine articles that were
12:48
Speaker 1: like how to save your marriage, and a lot of
12:50
Speaker 1: them were like have we just tried being sexier, though
12:54
Speaker 1: I don't think that's flying anymore. I don't think that's working.
12:58
Speaker 1: And also, just reminder, marital rape was legal till disturbingly recently.
13:02
Speaker 1: So a lot of reasons why women couldn't get divorced
13:09
Speaker 1: were it was difficult. There were financial especially which we're
13:15
Speaker 1: going to talk about reasons why. And now that's a
13:18
Speaker 1: little that's changed a little bit and we're seeing more
13:20
Speaker 1: divorced and angry men on the internet like to say
13:24
Speaker 1: it's women's fault, which I'm just like, I think maybe,
13:28
Speaker 1: I think maybe things have just changed and women have
13:31
Speaker 1: the option now and they didn't earlier. But Okay, there
13:36
Speaker 1: have been a lot of headlines about women and divorce
13:39
Speaker 1: in recent years. A twenty fifteen study from the American
13:42
Speaker 1: Sociological Association found that women initiated seventy percent of divorces.
13:48
Speaker 1: The same was not at all true of non marital breakups,
13:52
Speaker 1: which is interesting. A twenty thirteen study out of Kingston
13:55
Speaker 1: University tracing the before and afters of big life events
13:59
Speaker 1: found that women were generally happier after divorce. I mean,
14:05
Speaker 1: if you're making that choice to get a divorce, then
14:07
Speaker 1: I feel like that makes sense to.
14:10
Speaker 2: Me right, I mean and not again. We don't know
14:13
Speaker 2: for sure when it comes to the lines when it
14:17
Speaker 2: comes to gender, but typically big decisions like this, we
14:20
Speaker 2: talked about this with like finances and stocks and how
14:23
Speaker 2: a lot it has been noted that women have been
14:26
Speaker 2: a lot more successful because they are patient and think
14:29
Speaker 2: through before they make a decision. It's kind of the
14:32
Speaker 2: same with like big life decisions like divorce, and they've
14:34
Speaker 2: gone through a lot first. Like it's a TikTok trend
14:38
Speaker 2: to see how people are. Like we've talked about weaponized
14:42
Speaker 2: and competence and this level of stuff, and women responding
14:47
Speaker 2: when they see these types of things happening being like, yeah,
14:51
Speaker 2: and it's going to come to that. I don't know,
14:53
Speaker 2: she's left all of a sudden, and in naturality, it's
14:56
Speaker 2: been a long time making that same kind of conversation.
15:00
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we're going to get more into that later.
15:04
Speaker 1: Share Heights nineteen eighty seven Work Women in Love found
15:07
Speaker 1: that four five hundred women aged fourteen to eighty five
15:13
Speaker 1: that four fifths reported feeling their relationship was unequal. I know,
15:19
Speaker 1: around ninety ninety percent of divorce women said they were
15:22
Speaker 1: lonely in their marriages, and a whopping ninety five percent
15:26
Speaker 1: said they experienced quote emotional and psychological harassment. Her research
15:32
Speaker 1: and the respondents were attacked by men who believed it
15:35
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be true. That can't be the case. I
15:41
Speaker 1: am interested in how many cases I have of friends
15:46
Speaker 1: who have been together for years getting divorced and breaking
15:50
Speaker 1: up very quickly after getting married, like they were together
15:54
Speaker 1: over a decade in more than one case, got married,
15:58
Speaker 1: broke up within months.
16:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder again, it could be like the setup.
16:02
Speaker 2: They've already had things planned, Yeah, things taken care of,
16:06
Speaker 2: ready to go, and then they're like, yeah, my sugar,
16:09
Speaker 2: Yeah we'll see. Liz Lind's, author of The American ex Wife,
16:14
Speaker 2: How I Ended My Marriage and Started My Life, wrote,
16:18
Speaker 2: these weren't just stories of women falling out of love,
16:21
Speaker 2: but of political, cultural, and romantic institutions that asks too
16:25
Speaker 2: much of wives and mothers and gives too little in return.
16:29
Speaker 2: As one mother of four who runs her own small
16:31
Speaker 2: business said, I'm a divorce single mom. Leaving my husband
16:35
Speaker 2: didn't increase my workload. He wasn't doing much. My workload
16:39
Speaker 2: is the same, but I have more peace now. I've
16:45
Speaker 2: seen that a lot like essentially where the husband was
16:48
Speaker 2: the other child that was making it more difficult.
16:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that goes back to what you were saying.
16:54
Speaker 1: Several studies did find that men colley and they were
16:57
Speaker 1: surprised by divorces, like she sprung this out of nowhere.
17:01
Speaker 2: Right, it came out of nowhere, Like that nagging that
17:04
Speaker 2: you've been complaining about that she does was hard trying
17:08
Speaker 2: to fix things.
17:09
Speaker 1: Yeah. I read some really for me upsetting stories of
17:16
Speaker 1: women pretty much just like outright asking for public I
17:22
Speaker 1: need your help, and the man in this relationship saying
17:27
Speaker 1: get it together. I don't know why you can't get
17:30
Speaker 1: it together, and basically like gaslighting them and being right,
17:39
Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with whatever this is that
17:42
Speaker 1: you're doing. Some research has found that women are financially
17:50
Speaker 1: worse than men after divorced, sometimes by double percentage points,
17:54
Speaker 1: often due to things like gender wage gap. Women are
17:59
Speaker 1: less likely to remarry and frequently take on the soul
18:03
Speaker 1: burden of childcare if children are in the mix. However,
18:06
Speaker 1: the same studies found that women were happier in doing
18:09
Speaker 1: better at their jobs than they had been pre divorced.
18:14
Speaker 1: Many women reported feeling positive about taking that step the initiative,
18:18
Speaker 1: so kind of like what you were talking about that
18:21
Speaker 1: here's something on my to do list, I'm going to
18:23
Speaker 1: take care of it. All of that comes with an
18:26
Speaker 1: important caveat. Studies are usually focused on short term impacts
18:32
Speaker 1: of divorce. A few of the long term ones indicate
18:35
Speaker 1: that women over time actually do better financially post divorce, too,
18:40
Speaker 1: I can see another caveat. Some women reported subjective satisfaction
18:44
Speaker 1: of making or having their own money, even if it
18:47
Speaker 1: was less than what their husband made. This is part
18:51
Speaker 1: of why these things can be tricky to measure, because
18:53
Speaker 1: our experiences shade our understanding. But also the subjective cannot
18:58
Speaker 1: be measured fully. But reported being happy that you know,
19:03
Speaker 1: I'm making my own money, right, I like it?
19:06
Speaker 2: I mean subjective could be like getting away from the
19:09
Speaker 2: mental abuse, emotional abuse, constant berating or scared of you know,
19:14
Speaker 2: saying the wrong thing, type of things. You know, yeah,
19:17
Speaker 2: really measure that. So. Other studies have found that many
19:20
Speaker 2: women reported higher levels of happiness, a better social life,
19:24
Speaker 2: increased feelings of control and self confidence after divorce, and
19:28
Speaker 2: often went on to pursue creative career paths. They've also
19:33
Speaker 2: shown an increase in sexual desire. I've actually heard that
19:36
Speaker 2: as a conversation. I don't know like the level, but
19:40
Speaker 2: like all of a sudden, they're ready to hit the
19:42
Speaker 2: road again, like they're excited for the new challenges and
19:45
Speaker 2: I've said it challenges.
19:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and to clarify, like a lot of the women,
19:53
Speaker 1: a lot of times it's like, oh, she must not
19:56
Speaker 1: have any sexual desire anymore, therefore there was no sex
19:58
Speaker 1: in their marriage, and therefore their marriage ended. But a
20:01
Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, they weren't maybe sexually attracted
20:05
Speaker 1: to that person anymore, But that doesn't mean they don't
20:09
Speaker 1: have sexual desire.
20:11
Speaker 2: Right. Again, this is that whole conversation of like what
20:15
Speaker 2: is sexy to certain people? Yeah, and it could be like,
20:19
Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about affair, so this is completely different.
20:21
Speaker 2: But like why people get into a fairs is the
20:23
Speaker 2: newness and excitement of it. That could be something that's different,
20:26
Speaker 2: or it could be that you're just especially like if
20:30
Speaker 2: we're talking about the weaponized incompetence or any of those
20:33
Speaker 2: types of levels where you're just finally done taking care
20:36
Speaker 2: of your husband, they no longer look like a partner
20:38
Speaker 2: to you, but more of something that you are stuck
20:42
Speaker 2: with and or taken care of constantly.
20:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, and yeah, I mean I think again, not
20:51
Speaker 1: to say that divorce is like all fantastic, but to
20:56
Speaker 1: highlight that for so long we have framed divorces in
20:59
Speaker 1: fat bad and our studies have only looked into the negatives.
21:03
Speaker 1: But recent studies have looked into the positives too, So
21:05
Speaker 1: that's why conversation is changing a bit. Some research does
21:10
Speaker 1: indicate that after divorce from a man, women may start
21:13
Speaker 1: dating women for the first time. And this is what
21:15
Speaker 1: happened in Glenn and Doyle's book Untamed. You can see
21:19
Speaker 1: that episode. But I did find that like a research paper.
21:24
Speaker 2: So I've seen this in person, like I've seen this
21:30
Speaker 2: of people who have been in long term marriages with children.
21:34
Speaker 2: They get divorced and their next pecture is this is
21:36
Speaker 2: my new girlfriend, And I'm like, oh, congratulations, wait to
21:41
Speaker 2: step it up, Like that's amazing. You found who you
21:44
Speaker 2: were and you did not have that chance, possibly when
21:48
Speaker 2: you first were in relationships and didn't understand who you
21:51
Speaker 2: were or couldn't I like come to terms with who
21:55
Speaker 2: you were at that time. I don't know, whatever the reason,
21:58
Speaker 2: And now you're here, like in a whole different level
22:01
Speaker 2: of yourself, you know, And I'm like, go ahead, But
22:04
Speaker 2: like I've seen that it could be that our generation,
22:07
Speaker 2: that people who've become the divorce as or getting divorced
22:10
Speaker 2: are now a lot more open than they could have
22:13
Speaker 2: been before. Like that could be the different changees honestly timing.
22:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also going back to a lot of women
22:21
Speaker 1: got married very young, so I think you might not
22:26
Speaker 1: have known at that time. And it is like I said,
22:33
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to downplay the divorce is
22:37
Speaker 1: painful and we're going to talk about it more later,
22:40
Speaker 1: but it's also it can be it can be something
22:44
Speaker 1: that is good, and so I think we need to
22:48
Speaker 1: talk about both sides, all of the shades of why
22:52
Speaker 1: of how divorce can look. One of the things that
22:56
Speaker 1: has grabbed a lot of attention in recent years is
22:59
Speaker 1: something called gray divorce, which I had not heard of.
23:05
Speaker 2: I haven't either, This is new to me.
23:07
Speaker 1: Well, I think it got a lot of attention because
23:10
Speaker 1: a lot of celebrities started doing it.
23:12
Speaker 2: But yes, okay, yeah, okay, I think I know the
23:15
Speaker 2: terms without knowing. But going on, So, starting around twenty
23:17
Speaker 2: twenty three, a lot of articles started coming about how
23:21
Speaker 2: women over fifty were initiating divorce. According to PE Research
23:25
Speaker 2: and the American Psychological Association, between nineteen ninety and twenty ten,
23:30
Speaker 2: the divorce rate of people over fifty increased substantially, while
23:34
Speaker 2: younger people still account for the most divorces. In twenty nineteen,
23:39
Speaker 2: divorces initiated by people over fifty reached thirty six percent,
23:44
Speaker 2: up from around at nine percent in nineteen ninety. The
23:48
Speaker 2: media started calling this gray divorce.
23:51
Speaker 1: Yes, and there are some key differences in grey divorce
23:57
Speaker 1: in how finances look. When it comes to getting divorced
24:00
Speaker 1: at this age, there are typically more assets involved. On
24:04
Speaker 1: top of that, if the couple has been together for
24:06
Speaker 1: a long time, there are friend groups, communities, and possibly
24:09
Speaker 1: children involved. So why is this happening? Researchers believe it
24:15
Speaker 1: reflects changes in our society, especially when it comes to
24:18
Speaker 1: women and their opportunities. Divorce and living in general is expensive,
24:23
Speaker 1: and we've talked numerous times about financial abuse and especially
24:29
Speaker 1: how that impacts women. Now that women can have jobs
24:33
Speaker 1: and credit cards, because reminder, that's fairly recent. The gender
24:37
Speaker 1: wage gap is still thing, but it is more feasible
24:41
Speaker 1: for women to get a divorce, and it had been
24:45
Speaker 1: a couple of studies have found that women who advance
24:48
Speaker 1: in their careers or are the breadwinners are more likely
24:51
Speaker 1: to get divorced, and this raises several questions, including yes,
24:55
Speaker 1: who can afford to get divorced, how the narrative would
24:59
Speaker 1: be presented, But also it brings to mind the nightmare
25:05
Speaker 1: of all the ambitious woman who is two career obsessed,
25:09
Speaker 1: she goes home for Christmas and she doesn't understand. This
25:15
Speaker 1: largely ignores the fact that ambitious men with families were
25:18
Speaker 1: able to do it because they had wives at home
25:21
Speaker 1: taking care of things. A lot of these arguments are
25:28
Speaker 1: also conveniently ignored statistics around domestic abuse and partner violence.
25:34
Speaker 1: And also people are living longer, so you might be like,
25:38
Speaker 1: I've got a good thirty more years. Do I want
25:40
Speaker 1: to spend it like this? So do I don't want
25:42
Speaker 1: to get a divorce?
25:44
Speaker 2: Or you could do like me where you forget what
25:46
Speaker 2: it is and how old you are and you're like nah, Also,
25:49
Speaker 2: well I'm too young for that. Also until I realize, oh,
25:55
Speaker 2: it's coming up to you can't have babis. Yeah, I'm
25:58
Speaker 2: okay with that too. Moving on, the person who is
26:01
Speaker 2: credited with terming the term great divorce, A sociology professor
26:05
Speaker 2: Susan Brown said women seem to be maybe a little
26:09
Speaker 2: bit more likely to initiate divorce, but many would argue
26:12
Speaker 2: that they could actually just be reflecting the fact that
26:15
Speaker 2: women are the ones who have to do these types
26:17
Speaker 2: of tasks within relationships.
26:20
Speaker 1: Hmmm, which is what we women saying. So I think
26:24
Speaker 1: that's important to keep in mind too, is like maybe
26:29
Speaker 1: maybe the woman is usually just the one who fills
26:32
Speaker 1: out the.
26:32
Speaker 2: Patio, has to do the paperwork for them and be
26:34
Speaker 2: like just sign for the love of Jesus.
26:38
Speaker 1: Oh, we're going to talk about some media portrayals soon
26:42
Speaker 1: that brought that memories of Twister. While there's a lot
26:56
Speaker 1: of work to be done societally, we have moved towards
26:59
Speaker 1: a equitable marriages when it comes to things like domestic work,
27:03
Speaker 1: or something at least closer to equitable marriages. This means
27:07
Speaker 1: that more women have reported being unwilling to settle for
27:11
Speaker 1: quote empty shell marriages, especially after their kids leave home.
27:17
Speaker 1: That being said, studies have been done on if things
27:22
Speaker 1: like children leaving the home or catalyst for these later
27:26
Speaker 1: in life divorces, and while they have been found to
27:28
Speaker 1: be factors. Statistically, they weren't the main cause. Economic stability
27:33
Speaker 1: was much more of an issue, but it still wasn't.
27:36
Speaker 1: There was no like way outlier. It was a lot
27:41
Speaker 1: of things, I would say, a lot of things. We've
27:45
Speaker 1: also talked before about the health effects of divorce. Studies
27:50
Speaker 1: indicate women typically have stronger support groups outside of their family,
27:54
Speaker 1: meaning that they are more able to move on. Studies
27:57
Speaker 1: have also found that women post divorce are more like
28:00
Speaker 1: cleaned to do rewarding activities they've always wanted to do,
28:04
Speaker 1: like travel, or rely on their support groups, seek out
28:08
Speaker 1: therapy as opposed to harmful coping mechanisms like drug and
28:11
Speaker 1: alcohol abuse. But similar to what we discussed earlier, most
28:16
Speaker 1: studies are on short term effects of divorce. Longer term
28:21
Speaker 1: studies suggest that men recovered just about as much as women,
28:25
Speaker 1: although other studies found the opposite. So grain of salt
28:30
Speaker 1: is always with these social science surveys. Also, I found
28:36
Speaker 1: a really great essay about kind of comparing the pandemic
28:40
Speaker 1: what we saw on the pandemic of where a lot
28:45
Speaker 1: of women were having to stay at home and maybe
28:48
Speaker 1: quit their jobs to take care of the kids. And
28:55
Speaker 1: the author was saying you know, like, if I'd gotten
28:58
Speaker 1: divorced earlier, I would have done this and this and this,
29:02
Speaker 1: and who knows how much creativity we've lost out on.
29:05
Speaker 1: So I do think that's an interesting question of since
29:14
Speaker 1: women are still tasked more with a child rearing and
29:20
Speaker 1: domestic stuff on top of jobs, like, how much are
29:23
Speaker 1: we losing from those women in terms of innovation and creativity?
29:30
Speaker 2: But what about the children?
29:31
Speaker 1: Though? Okay, so this is not not not an episode
29:35
Speaker 1: on child custody and or an episode on children whose
29:39
Speaker 1: parents went through a divorce, But it is pretty impossible
29:43
Speaker 1: to talk about a divorce that involves children without talking
29:46
Speaker 1: about the children. We do not have the time to
29:49
Speaker 1: go into the history, but very briefly, pregnancy could and
29:52
Speaker 1: still can lead to death. So the person who was
29:55
Speaker 1: pregnant often had to stay at home and the person
29:57
Speaker 1: or persons caring for them provided shelter and whatever they needed.
30:01
Speaker 1: So this whole thing is still present in our modern
30:04
Speaker 1: day systems of marriage and divorce and in the workplace
30:07
Speaker 1: with things like pregnancy discrimination, which now we have birth
30:14
Speaker 1: control and abortion ish family planning tools, but all of
30:21
Speaker 1: that is being more and more restricted, So it's sort
30:23
Speaker 1: of going back into the whole you have to stay
30:28
Speaker 1: at home with the kids thing. The narrative often solely
30:33
Speaker 1: puts the blame on women for divorce, especially children are involved.
30:38
Speaker 1: She failed, and it is very complicated. Absolutely, children can
30:44
Speaker 1: usually tell when you're miserable. They generally want you to
30:48
Speaker 1: be happy. Women staying in a relationship and using children
30:51
Speaker 1: as the reason why can be harmful, not just to
30:53
Speaker 1: the women but to the children. The narrative also has
30:57
Speaker 1: been that women steal their children from men. This is
31:02
Speaker 1: largely not true, but there are nuances that get laws.
31:06
Speaker 1: It's a whole mess. It's a different episode. I was
31:10
Speaker 1: overwhelmed looking to it. But yes, some divorce women have
31:15
Speaker 1: spoken about how anxious joint custody made them, not because
31:19
Speaker 1: of abuse or anything like that, but just like having
31:23
Speaker 1: that time away from their children and actually finding more
31:26
Speaker 1: time to relax do things for themselves, but also reporting
31:29
Speaker 1: that it helped form a better relationship with the father
31:33
Speaker 1: in this very heater norm of case, because she had
31:35
Speaker 1: previously been taking care of everything and now he had
31:39
Speaker 1: to actually deal with the kids. And this reminds me
31:44
Speaker 1: of a Jimmy Kimmel bit where it's very uncomfortable but
31:49
Speaker 1: it's like a Man on the Street bit where they
31:52
Speaker 1: just ask fathers to with their kids to like name
31:55
Speaker 1: basic facts about their kids and they just fail, and
31:59
Speaker 1: like who's to know. I'm sure they pick out the
32:03
Speaker 1: worst ones, but it's like shocking, and then they bring
32:07
Speaker 1: in the mother and she's like, oh, yes, this, this, this, this,
32:10
Speaker 1: like she knows everything. So it just reminded me of
32:15
Speaker 1: that in terms of like, now you have to actually
32:20
Speaker 1: learn about this kid.
32:21
Speaker 2: Oddly enough, i've seen skits like that, except as about uh,
32:25
Speaker 2: pet parents. Of course I would get that content literally,
32:30
Speaker 2: like a lot of them are vets talking about how
32:33
Speaker 2: oftentimes if it's not the woman in the heteronormative relationship
32:38
Speaker 2: heteros relationship, then they don't know the information that they
32:42
Speaker 2: have to call them, Like that's the skit is essentially
32:44
Speaker 2: if it's the dude that always, oh no, it's him,
32:47
Speaker 2: he's not gonna know anything. Can you please just have
32:49
Speaker 2: your wife write down or all the information about the
32:52
Speaker 2: dog or the cat. And I'm like, really, I've seen
32:57
Speaker 2: this before and actually right, but you're like, but that's
33:00
Speaker 2: so funny to me because I can't believe it would
33:04
Speaker 2: also translate to that, and we know there's so many,
33:07
Speaker 2: Like I've never looked at any status about ownership like
33:11
Speaker 2: gender based on gender, but I think there's plenty of
33:14
Speaker 2: men who who own dogs or pets in general. So
33:16
Speaker 2: I'm like, huh, it crosses over like that.
33:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And this is like you can see our
33:23
Speaker 1: Emotional Labor episode for more on this, but like, we
33:28
Speaker 1: are not believers in gender essentialism here, but I do
33:33
Speaker 1: believe that in socialization of gender and expectations of gender.
33:39
Speaker 1: So I think it's much more like if you look
33:41
Speaker 1: at the comments under those Jimmy Kimmel videos, people are
33:44
Speaker 1: horrified and they're like, I can't I can't believe you
33:47
Speaker 1: couldn't take the barest interest in your own child, like
33:53
Speaker 1: because they don't have to. They haven't had to, right. So,
33:58
Speaker 1: the belief that divorce was bad for children was really
34:02
Speaker 1: enforced by a few poorly researched but very publicized and
34:05
Speaker 1: popular books spanning from the eighties to two thousands. I
34:08
Speaker 1: bet some of you know who which ones, along with
34:12
Speaker 1: historic and systemic governmental and religious pressure that were layered
34:17
Speaker 1: with racism and misogyny. In twenty fourteen, Florida Senator Marco
34:22
Speaker 1: Ribau said that marriage was quote the greatest tool to
34:25
Speaker 1: live children and families from poverty. And honestly, yeah, going
34:29
Speaker 1: back to our religious conversation around marriage and divorce, it's
34:34
Speaker 1: a doozy, no wonder we had a twelve plus partner
34:37
Speaker 1: on religious drum on my fault. It's not your fault
34:40
Speaker 1: at all. Oh wow. But a twenty twenty study found
34:47
Speaker 1: that women repartnering had no significant impacts on her adult children.
34:53
Speaker 1: Other studies have found women are less likely to repartner
34:57
Speaker 1: due to things like the fact that they are caring
35:00
Speaker 1: for the kids, or they're older women, which you know
35:03
Speaker 1: is the worst so who, or that men just don't
35:08
Speaker 1: like the idea of dating a woman who makes more
35:10
Speaker 1: than them as much as they might like to say
35:14
Speaker 1: that they're cool with it. Which was that an actual
35:17
Speaker 1: study that I found?
35:19
Speaker 2: Of course, it is a to be fair. I think
35:23
Speaker 2: if my current relationship, whom I'm very happy with, we
35:27
Speaker 2: do really well. We had like he knows everything about peaches,
35:31
Speaker 2: so we're good, Like he could take car to the vent,
35:33
Speaker 2: he'd be fine. I would put that out there, But like,
35:38
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want to date I think in general,
35:41
Speaker 2: just like for me in general, I'm like, no, I'm good. Yeah,
35:45
Speaker 2: I just hang out with my dog. Thanks.
35:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh. I think we're going to talk about that
35:50
Speaker 1: in a little bit more at the end. But I
35:52
Speaker 1: think that's kind of the general vine right for.
35:56
Speaker 2: I'd rather be alone. To those who are dating, god speed,
36:03
Speaker 2: let us know what's going on. How are you? Oh
36:07
Speaker 2: so we're gonna get into laws? Yeah, yeah, you're ready
36:09
Speaker 2: for it. So, by and large, it is easier to
36:12
Speaker 2: get married than it is to get divorced in the US. Yes,
36:16
Speaker 2: even at fourteen. Yep, it is not easy. Even if
36:21
Speaker 2: a lot of people like to paint this as a
36:23
Speaker 2: oh you're quitting or you're giving up to get divorced,
36:26
Speaker 2: it's actually a very long process. The history is regionally specific.
36:31
Speaker 2: According to Investipedia, the first divorce on record in America
36:35
Speaker 2: was granted in sixteen thirty nine in the Massachusetts Bay
36:39
Speaker 2: Colony because a man named James Luxford had married two wives.
36:44
Speaker 2: Lux first punishment was to relinquish his possessions to his
36:48
Speaker 2: second wife as alimony and was put in the stocks, fined,
36:52
Speaker 2: and banished. So did he get divorced from both people? Though?
36:57
Speaker 2: Which one?
36:57
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think just the one. I almost again this episode,
37:02
Speaker 1: it could have been so long because I wanted to
37:04
Speaker 1: do famous examples of like how they changed parts of Catholicism.
37:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, around the world the eighth isn't that the whole story? Yeah,
37:14
Speaker 2: he did this because he wanted a new wife, but
37:17
Speaker 2: then he killed all of them.
37:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a simplification, yeah, but I
37:26
Speaker 1: mean it's and looking at all the history is a
37:30
Speaker 1: lot of men being like I don't want to be
37:32
Speaker 1: with you anymore. I want this other person. And that
37:37
Speaker 1: has guided a lot of our laws. But okay, we
37:42
Speaker 1: are not lawyers, as we said, and to be really honest,
37:45
Speaker 1: I had no idea about how hard it was to
37:48
Speaker 1: legally get divorced. So here are just a few examples.
37:53
Speaker 1: And to be clear, these laws very by state. Here
37:56
Speaker 1: in the United States, most states have waiting periods of
38:00
Speaker 1: twenty to one hundred and eighty days, not to mention
38:04
Speaker 1: the fees on top of that, this means for an
38:07
Speaker 1: amount of time you're in sort of a painful limbo,
38:09
Speaker 1: especially financially from what I read a lot, and emotionally absolutely,
38:13
Speaker 1: but that financial part can be really difficult. Certain religions
38:18
Speaker 1: require or strongly pressure you to get religious counseling. Marriage
38:24
Speaker 1: is often given incentives, but single parents do not receive
38:28
Speaker 1: anything close to that. Some marriage counseling and seminars are
38:32
Speaker 1: text funded. Currently and unfortunate emphasis on Currently, no fault
38:40
Speaker 1: divorce is legal in all fifty states. This rose in
38:43
Speaker 1: popularity in the seventies and eighties in the US, after
38:46
Speaker 1: first being legalized in California in nineteen sixty nine. And
38:49
Speaker 1: I know some of you are like shouting out the computer.
38:51
Speaker 1: We'll get to the fun effect behind that. At the end.
38:56
Speaker 1: It means that you don't have to prove fault to
38:58
Speaker 1: get divorced. Legal experts believe it was necessary to correct
39:02
Speaker 1: a system that incentivized concocting plane to justify the divorce,
39:06
Speaker 1: so like everybody was lying essentially. That being said, some
39:10
Speaker 1: states require that the broken up couples spend a year
39:13
Speaker 1: and one day in separate living spaces, which is not
39:17
Speaker 1: so easy. This is often called the cooling off period. Obviously,
39:23
Speaker 1: it can be painful and intimidating to prove fault in
39:27
Speaker 1: an abusive marriage. Research has found a significant decrease in
39:31
Speaker 1: suicide and women where no fault divorce was an option.
39:34
Speaker 1: They've also found lower rates of domestic violence, which makes
39:37
Speaker 1: sense to me. Apparently in Texas you cannot finalize the
39:41
Speaker 1: divorce while pregnant if the divorcee in question is the
39:45
Speaker 1: biological parent. Like I said, LGBTQ plus marriage and divorce
39:52
Speaker 1: separate episode, but a lot of it is similar to
39:56
Speaker 1: no fault laws in the US, but further complicated by
39:59
Speaker 1: gen laws and language like who is the biological parent?
40:05
Speaker 1: Who is the quote mother? It can get really really messy,
40:10
Speaker 1: so that future episode. And then this brings us to
40:16
Speaker 1: just a brief venting session. Oh the Internet, because when
40:23
Speaker 1: I was looking this up, a lot of the first
40:27
Speaker 1: results were men being real mad about how in their
40:30
Speaker 1: minds divorce favors women, men blaming women for divorce, asking
40:36
Speaker 1: what state they should go to to get divorce that
40:38
Speaker 1: will favor them the most. And then, of course, as
40:42
Speaker 1: per usual, the whole go and make me a sandwich thing,
40:46
Speaker 1: because yeah, like when do you stop and think about it?
40:51
Speaker 1: Like men were working, they were getting to own things,
40:55
Speaker 1: they were controlling their finances, they were getting out of
40:57
Speaker 1: the house. But women were doing unpaid notice labor, cooking, cleaning, chowdering,
41:03
Speaker 1: and being made fun of her having frivolous relationships outside
41:06
Speaker 1: of the house, like how we used to still do
41:08
Speaker 1: make fun of like, oh, she's always talking with her friends,
41:12
Speaker 1: like like it's so frivolous or useless. Other studies have
41:16
Speaker 1: found that women work harder to receive less in their
41:21
Speaker 1: jobs due to biases, So add that to the pile.
41:24
Speaker 1: So for these angry men on the internet, Yeah, the
41:27
Speaker 1: marriage is great. Come you come home to a meal.
41:31
Speaker 1: You don't have to deal with the kids other than
41:33
Speaker 1: like acknowledging that they're kids. Meanwhile, she's been working all day. Still,
41:37
Speaker 1: I was working when you get home, and then it's
41:39
Speaker 1: mocked if she's too tired for sex, you.
41:42
Speaker 2: Know, which is interesting because the level of women coming
41:46
Speaker 2: back round to yeah, I'll be a stay at home mom,
41:49
Speaker 2: and I will. I will serve you and cook you
41:52
Speaker 2: if you provide for everything else, and I don't do
41:56
Speaker 2: a damn thing after the fact. Like that's that kind
41:59
Speaker 2: of conversation from like maybe the seventies and probably more so.
42:04
Speaker 2: And this is very like white perspective, heteronormative ideals to
42:09
Speaker 2: like about what the nineties they said. They're saying that
42:12
Speaker 2: the uptick of divorce happened in the nineties. I don't remember,
42:15
Speaker 2: but all of that to say is like women were
42:17
Speaker 2: working and doing the nine to five, coming home, clicking
42:21
Speaker 2: and cleaning, taking care of the children because they were
42:23
Speaker 2: also having children still at that point, and the men
42:26
Speaker 2: were just working coming home, putting their shoes up, telling
42:31
Speaker 2: the kids to stay out of the way while they
42:33
Speaker 2: watched their show. So this is all stereotype obviously according
42:36
Speaker 2: to sitcoms. But like they were living their best life. Yeah,
42:41
Speaker 2: and they're really mad that they had it for a
42:43
Speaker 2: period and they're like, why can't I have that again?
42:46
Speaker 2: And it just doesn't make sense to be.
42:47
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's I mean, it was upsetting and kind
42:54
Speaker 1: of funny.
42:55
Speaker 2: They fit.
42:56
Speaker 1: They're like it would be like you know, the Yahoo
42:59
Speaker 1: asked and to be why are you with my woman
43:03
Speaker 1: not doing this anymore? And I'm like, oh, wow, you have.
43:06
Speaker 2: Whoa And this is kind of like and then it's
43:10
Speaker 2: the basis of the red pill. And in so many
43:12
Speaker 2: ways when we talk about that content, when we talked
43:15
Speaker 2: about religious trauma, we're talking about Project twenty twenty five,
43:19
Speaker 2: even which we haven't really talked about and we're going
43:21
Speaker 2: to come back to. But all of these narratives of
43:24
Speaker 2: like going back to the good old days, is that
43:28
Speaker 2: that ideal of oppressing marginalized people for this specific look.
43:33
Speaker 2: They're like, I want to get back to where a
43:35
Speaker 2: home was a home where two with a man and
43:38
Speaker 2: a wife and two to three children, and the woman
43:41
Speaker 2: came in as subservient to the man, but of course
43:44
Speaker 2: the man protected her. Yes, that's us our job, that's
43:47
Speaker 2: our duties. And it's kind of that beginning of yeah,
43:51
Speaker 2: there used to be such the golden days, as they
43:53
Speaker 2: would claim, and it's this, it's the beginning of the
43:57
Speaker 2: narrative for the red pill and having that level of
44:01
Speaker 2: if we can get back to that, then all is
44:04
Speaker 2: right with the world. And this is the whole point.
44:06
Speaker 2: And this is the decency and the godliness that they
44:09
Speaker 2: are talking about. And this kind of ideal for young
44:12
Speaker 2: boys was like, yeah, why can't I have that? And
44:15
Speaker 2: it slips into these are my rights when it never was.
44:19
Speaker 1: Right absolutely, And I think a lot of this was
44:24
Speaker 1: in part missing the point of a twenty nineteen US
44:28
Speaker 1: Census Bureau report that come through numerous studies and found
44:32
Speaker 1: women do have more to benefit from divorce, like leisure time,
44:36
Speaker 1: career time, time to relax less chores, less childcare. But
44:41
Speaker 1: I think they took it and saw that as I'm
44:43
Speaker 1: getting punished more for the divorce. Coincidentally, this report also
44:50
Speaker 1: found that areas that had more social nets and easier
44:53
Speaker 1: access to divorce at higher rates of marriage. Interesting. But yes,
45:10
Speaker 1: the media, we must also talk about that, because when
45:12
Speaker 1: you talk about divorce and women, there are a lot
45:15
Speaker 1: of tropes. The evil ex wife, the mean mom who
45:18
Speaker 1: punishes her ex. I thought about missus stubtfire for that one,
45:23
Speaker 1: nagging sitcom wives, men complaining about the old ball and chain.
45:30
Speaker 1: And then this whole idea of women changing or chaining
45:34
Speaker 1: their man, which a lot of people who have written
45:38
Speaker 1: about divorce have said, like, here's how you failed. You
45:40
Speaker 1: should have changed him in this way, And I think
45:43
Speaker 1: that's a problematic. No, No, you can work together on things,
45:50
Speaker 1: but that whole idea. In nineteen seventy two, sociologists Jesse
45:55
Speaker 1: Bernard wrote quote, there are a few findings more consistent,
45:59
Speaker 1: less equick, and more convincing than the sometimes spectacular and
46:03
Speaker 1: always impressive superiority on almost every index, demographic, psychological, or
46:08
Speaker 1: social of married over never married men. Despite all the
46:12
Speaker 1: jokes about marriage in which men indulge, all the complaints
46:16
Speaker 1: they lodge against it, it is one of the greatest
46:18
Speaker 1: boons of their sex because they always made fun of it.
46:22
Speaker 1: They're always like, it's always bothering me. But a lot
46:30
Speaker 1: of women have reported feeling like failures at first after
46:35
Speaker 1: a divorce, but over time realizing that they made the
46:37
Speaker 1: right decision and were happier. And a lot of them
46:40
Speaker 1: have reported finding a community of other divorce women, not
46:44
Speaker 1: even purposefully, always like you know, you'd be calling up
46:48
Speaker 1: to cancel your insurance and like I'm getting divorced and like, oh, yeah,
46:51
Speaker 1: I went through that, or you know, something like that,
46:54
Speaker 1: and how that helped them. Another Pew Research study found
46:57
Speaker 1: that most women are unsure about remarrying, while most men
47:01
Speaker 1: want to. I do think this is pretty telling in
47:05
Speaker 1: terms of who marriage largely benefits, as do the study
47:09
Speaker 1: authors that found seventy percent of divorces are initiated by women,
47:14
Speaker 1: but not breakups. One of the study authors, Michael Rosenfeldt, said,
47:18
Speaker 1: I think that marriage as an institution has been a
47:21
Speaker 1: little bit slow to catch up with expectations for gender equality.
47:25
Speaker 1: Wives still take their husband's surnames and are sometimes pressured
47:28
Speaker 1: to do so. Husbands still expect their wives to do
47:31
Speaker 1: the bulk of the housework and the bulk of the childcare.
47:34
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I think that non marital relationships
47:37
Speaker 1: lack the historical baggage and expectations of marriage, which makes
47:41
Speaker 1: the non marital relationships more flexible and therefore more adaptable
47:44
Speaker 1: to modern expectations, including women's expectations to more gender equality.
47:50
Speaker 2: You know, what we haven't really talked much about is
47:53
Speaker 2: the common law. Yeah, we have to which in Georgia
47:57
Speaker 2: has that I believe, yes, which is kind of concerning.
48:01
Speaker 2: Why is this the thing? It seems very misogynistic. We
48:05
Speaker 2: haven't looked into it, very patriarchal because I also think
48:08
Speaker 2: if you're in that same level, like you, no matter
48:11
Speaker 2: what you do, you're stuck type of conversation. But probably
48:16
Speaker 2: a different episode.
48:18
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely definitely a different episode and all of these
48:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I hope we've been clear throughout. We did
48:27
Speaker 1: research this, but it is you know, a lot of
48:30
Speaker 1: it's not everybody's experience at all, these things we're talking about.
48:33
Speaker 1: But it's also interesting in terms of our media, where
48:36
Speaker 1: the X or the single bomb is a failure, but
48:39
Speaker 1: in fairy tales, your dream come true is finding the
48:42
Speaker 1: husband and getting married. This is also a conversation of
48:47
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations of love. But the point stands because it
48:51
Speaker 1: stops when you get married, so you don't see all
48:55
Speaker 1: the work or all the discord that might be in it.
49:01
Speaker 1: I will say this brought back a memory of when
49:04
Speaker 1: I was first starting as a host for Saver. We
49:09
Speaker 1: were recording at a bar and there was a group
49:12
Speaker 1: of divorced women who were there having the time of
49:15
Speaker 1: their lives and we got into chatting. They were just
49:18
Speaker 1: talking to us and they're telling us all their stories.
49:22
Speaker 1: But it was I remember being like kind of moved
49:26
Speaker 1: by how they were having this camaraderie and this They
49:30
Speaker 1: were like, oh, yeah, once a month we meet up.
49:32
Speaker 1: And I really liked it. I thought it was great.
49:38
Speaker 1: But they were very open about it, and one of
49:41
Speaker 1: them gave me your business. Carden was like, after this,
49:43
Speaker 1: I got into divorce law.
49:46
Speaker 2: That was amazing.
49:49
Speaker 1: It honestly was. It honestly was. And then my mom,
49:55
Speaker 1: like I said, I and I each the point where
50:00
Speaker 1: I wished my parents had gotten divorced. I don't blame
50:04
Speaker 1: my mom for not getting divorced, and I don't want
50:08
Speaker 1: to get into it too deeply, but I've reached a
50:11
Speaker 1: point where I was like, I think it would be better.
50:12
Speaker 1: But after my dad died, she's been very open with
50:16
Speaker 1: me about like, I don't want to remarry again. I
50:18
Speaker 1: don't want to date again because I was always putting
50:22
Speaker 1: his needs first. I was always worried about him and
50:25
Speaker 1: what he wanted and what he wanted to do. And
50:28
Speaker 1: those are like larger conversations to have about how we're
50:32
Speaker 1: as women socialized the people please and put ourselves second.
50:36
Speaker 1: But it's just been interesting to hear her be like, no,
50:39
Speaker 1: I'm good, I am good. Things are changing, though some
50:44
Speaker 1: speculate that the whole idea of marriage is shifting, and
50:47
Speaker 1: the data we're seeing here is very reflective of boomers
50:49
Speaker 1: and Gen X, but the younger generations won't follow the
50:52
Speaker 1: same patterns. As Joey said in our recent episode on
50:56
Speaker 1: being gen Z and dating, the goalposts and desires aren't
50:59
Speaker 1: the same. Many more necessarily, some countries have introduced laws
51:03
Speaker 1: around divorce that recognize the value of domestic work, which
51:07
Speaker 1: is interesting and on a less serious note, I have
51:10
Speaker 1: seen a lot of recent conversation about being the stay
51:13
Speaker 1: at home partner and having that scene as more of
51:15
Speaker 1: an equal partnership, like actually recognizing the work. I personally
51:19
Speaker 1: am still grappling with some of the ways those conversations
51:22
Speaker 1: are phrased. But I do like that, you know, I'm
51:24
Speaker 1: glad we're taking that step of there is value in
51:28
Speaker 1: that work. You should have known that all the time.
51:31
Speaker 1: But the attitude around divorce has also changed. It's no
51:35
Speaker 1: longer ashamed as it once was. That's not to say
51:38
Speaker 1: there isn't still that aspect, but that is moving. I
51:43
Speaker 1: do want to say. The flip side of this whole
51:45
Speaker 1: thing is people who want to get married but can't
51:49
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and who long for partnership or might
51:53
Speaker 1: even need it if they want to have kids. To
51:56
Speaker 1: afford kids are expensive. On top of that, it isn't
52:00
Speaker 1: always the woman initiating divorce, and even if it was,
52:04
Speaker 1: there is pain involved. So just to say I think
52:09
Speaker 1: it's good, like I said, to recognize the full spectrum
52:11
Speaker 1: of it doesn't always have to be bad. But it's
52:15
Speaker 1: also you know, some people I read an article about,
52:21
Speaker 1: like I wish I could get married before I could
52:23
Speaker 1: talk about divorce. But anyway, and yeah, I see things
52:28
Speaker 1: again like our disability and marriage episode and unfortunately in
52:33
Speaker 1: our climate, oh, our political climate, the US House Speaker
52:37
Speaker 1: Mike Johnson called no fault divorce a scheme. VP jd
52:42
Speaker 1: Vance said it is insult on marriage. A few states
52:46
Speaker 1: have put forth proposed restrictions, and to be clear, the
52:51
Speaker 1: restrictions are largely targeted at women. And yeah, my fun
52:54
Speaker 1: fact I to used earlier then Governor Ronald Reagan was
52:59
Speaker 1: the one until you no fault divorces. He was the
53:02
Speaker 1: first elected president to have a divorce. He later said
53:05
Speaker 1: it was a mistake. Trump was the second president to
53:08
Speaker 1: be elected to have a divorce, so at least one.
53:19
Speaker 1: So yeah, we clearly have a lot to return.
53:22
Speaker 2: To his ex wife. He's now ex deceased wife was
53:26
Speaker 2: kind of like the inspiration for the First Wives Club.
53:29
Speaker 2: Can we talk about.
53:30
Speaker 1: That, yes, which did come up in my like do
53:34
Speaker 1: you need a movie about older women in divorce? And
53:37
Speaker 1: we have an episode on it we have so you
53:40
Speaker 1: can go check that out.
53:43
Speaker 2: He makes a cameo she does, don't get mad take everything.
53:50
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of threads past episodes we've done,
53:55
Speaker 1: in future episodes we need to do on this one.
54:00
Speaker 1: But yes, listeners, please write in if you have any
54:03
Speaker 1: experiences you want to share, our resources, you want to
54:05
Speaker 1: share we do want to dig into this more deeply
54:10
Speaker 1: and go in some other directions with it, so let
54:13
Speaker 1: us know where you'd like us to go. You can
54:17
Speaker 1: email us at stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot
54:20
Speaker 1: com or Hello at stuff one Never Told You dot com.
54:23
Speaker 1: You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast,
54:26
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told You.
54:29
Speaker 1: We have YouTube page, a tea public store, and a
54:33
Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
54:35
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina or executive duc
54:38
Speaker 1: to my and your contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks
54:40
Speaker 1: to you for listening stuff Never Told You the prediction
54:42
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you
54:44
Speaker 1: can check out the art radio app, Apple podcast or
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Speaker 1: where you listening to your favorite shows