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Know What You Need for Your Wholehearted Table with Aundi Kolber · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wicks, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you are new here, then welcome to the community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get started.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Hey friend, as we continue to have conversations around building a wholehearted table, I want to remind you that the importance and the value of intentionally building a table of relationships and specific relationships that reflect God's love, offer wise counsel, provide life-giving friendship, and also support you in your healing and growth journey.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: But before we can discern who belongs at our table, we first need to understand what we truly need from God and from ourselves.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: This means acknowledging our own pain, grief, and disappointment, and then inviting wisdom into those spaces.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where today's guest comes in.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm joined by Andi Kolber, trauma therapist and author of Try Softer and her newest book, Take What You Need.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Andi shares incredible wisdom about how to honor your own needs, navigate relationships with grace, and make thoughtful decisions about who sits at your table.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Also, here's something to consider as you listen.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Did you know that your personality type is connected to how you approach relationships, grief, healing, and even disappointment?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there is a powerful connection.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've ever wondered more about how your unique wiring influences this process, I'd love to chat today.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm opening up my calendar for some extra clarity calls that are totally complimentary so you can explore how understanding yourself better can transform the way you build your table.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now let's get right to this important conversation.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Andi.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited because I got this in the mail yesterday.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well done.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a different kind of book, and that is on purpose.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's kind of fun to be able to do something different.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's what I'd love to start with to hear as you are getting to share with others about this resource because it really is a resource, I would put it as.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different from some of your other work and your books.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: It it goes along with it beautifully.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so tell me a little bit the behind the scenes, like what prompted creating this and the way you've set it up.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, maybe a little bit about what you've learned in the process as well about you.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I use that language of resource a lot.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I do that to think about, I mean, not that it's a new word, but I really um a lot of my work, particularly as a therapist who works with the body, um, I think of resources a lot as when really anything that helps our body feel safe.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and feel, and that's I'm really um borrowing from the definition of Dr.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ariel Schwartz, who's a psychologist, but what that tells us from like a nervous system perspective, because we can want something to be helpful for us, but our body, God designed our bodies to be truth tellers.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like they just tell the truth.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like we might, with other parts of ourselves, be able to like make things look differently.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so when I think about this book as a resource, my hope is there's I have lots of hopes.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but first and foremost, I really I was especially thinking of times in people's lives, in my readers' lives, when they are really in it, you know, like they are they are in the storm, like they're just barely using another analogy, you know, kind of maybe at times like keeping their head above water.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in those times it's difficult to feel like you can sit down and read a 250-page book.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or even something that's really dense, you know, like, um, and I try to do my writing in such a way that it is accessible.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: But even with all of that, there are just times when, um, and I know from my own life and my own journey of healing, sometimes, I mean, even, you know, my first book is Tri-Softer, sometimes getting small or really just tuning into the more, you know, sort of granular needs have really big impacts.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so take what you need kind of came out of my hope and desire to translate what I would call sort of a trauma-informed posture in the work that I do.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whether I'm doing speaking, writing, therapy, I'm bringing that lens with me.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what I have found is that, you know, I certainly have a very specific way that I do therapy.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: But what I have been working on for several years is how do I help to create a similar experience for my readers?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is good.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so the phrase take what you need, I mean, I think I, you know, it's not a new phrase, but I I would always see it like it's like you see it when people are handing out free supplies.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You see it when someone is like sharing about something that they're giving away.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I loved, first of all, in my own body, when I would here take what you need, it felt like freedom.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: It felt like instead of being like, hey, I know you and exactly what you need, so I'm gonna tell you what you need.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a good point.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And for so many people, particularly trauma survivors, but but I think all of us, I mean, God designed our bodies with so much wisdom.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to be able to access that wisdom, we actually have to turn towards what we're experiencing.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And many of us have been taught to disconnect from that.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really the heart of what trauma does, is it causes us to have to disconnect internally, sometimes externally, um, in lots of ways.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really, like, especially, you know, I started using this online a couple years ago, probably like four years ago, when I would put information out because what I would think to myself is this may not be for everybody today.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually want to invite people to notice if it is or it isn't.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so good.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so take what you need.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: That there is a generosity and an openness and a humility that says, you know, we God designed us so uniquely.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that means we are not cookie cutters.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And though we have so much in common, and there are things that are innate just to being a human, there are other ways in which the thing that you need today might be a little bit different than the thing that I need today, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we come from that posture, I think for me, I really see it as this hope of like a compassionate, trauma-informed way to invite people to listen to what they have going on, to sort of, you know, participate with God in the discernment.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then within the book, I think of it sort of set out a little bit like a like a buffet almost.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's kind of like here's all these different things.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Take a moment, consider, and then go ahead and take what you need.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've done that really well.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love that you highlight here the desire to give people more as a and your book being a resource to the people you can't meet in your office or online and help one-on-one because I too have that desire and I'm constantly thinking through this podcast is wonderful or this conversation is wonderful, but I know there's one step between that and my one-on-one coaching that not everyone can do, or the one-on-one guidance that someone needs.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that you've really thoughtfully and beautifully done this, where it's a it's a way to resource yourself, right?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Get from the Lord, but also partner with a tool and a guide, if you will, that comes in a heart beautiful hardcover that you can flip through and take those bits and pieces that your soul is craving.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think in in connection with that, I've I've also that take what you need.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Also, to me, partners with, and then you're able to pass it along because there is that element when you are filled and you're refueled and you're grounded even, then what's beautiful is then when the the demands come your way, you are able to pass something along.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it is a bit of wisdom that you got that day earlier, or you know, just the refueling and some of the, maybe even some of the Holy Spirit energy that you can give to someone else.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that because I think your work invites people to do that, not unto the fact that you're gonna have to or that you have to give it away, but that you're able, you're better able in a place when the demands come.
• 10:26
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I love what you name, and that's such a central part of the work that I do.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people are a lot of people who've been attracted to my work, and obviously I can't speak for everyone, but a theme that I've noticed is it's often people who have been really generous and they really love, like they love people, but they also sometimes they get burnt out or they give or they're overfunctioning.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're giving sometimes from a place of fear because they're afraid what will happen when they don't give.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's all these different strategies, and and there's there's so many reasons why we develop these things.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and I always like to say, like, oftentimes it almost always makes sense why we developed it, right?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like at some point we maybe needed that strategy, but it's it creates this tension in people because it particularly when you're coming from the Christian faith tradition, you're like, oh, I want to love my neighbor as myself.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it feels like I'm doing something wrong by loving myself.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, because the you know, the scripture actually says as yourself, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which is there's this preemptive when Jesus says that we are called to love our neighbor as ourself.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: There is this preemptive acknowledgement that we would love ourselves, right?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so often I find a lot of my work I think of as like going below the surface of here's this truth we kind of all know.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, yes, like a hundred percent.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's love our neighbors as ourselves.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But what are all the things underneath that keep us from doing that from a place of wholeness, from a grounded, um, authentic love versus from a place where it's a it's a stress response, a trauma response, a need to fix other people, to control um instead of, and I think this is what you're naming, an overflow.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that it's a collaboration, it's an in, it's an interdependence, it's a way in which we, you know, like Mother Jerisa, her famous quote, like we belong to each other.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: There is a reality to that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we are also invited to participate in our own healing because that is the entry into the dance, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: All of this has a rhythm, like there's almost an energy.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know for me, when I experience a certain, you know, a breakthrough, a healing, an insight, um, there's like an energy that comes from like, I want to share that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's exciting.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want other people to know about those things.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I my work is to accept the invitation.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love that we went on this tangent because behind the scenes, simply wholehearted, the core verse behind the name is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love others as yourself.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the bridge or the gap that often happens is the self-awareness, which is getting in tune with what is preventing you from receiving love, to be able to love yourself so that way you can truly love others well, because it's all interconnected.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's this beautiful flywheel if people can visualize of how we receive from God and give to ourselves, so we can give to others, which brings glory to God.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it just goes round and round.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes, and that's why tools like Enneagram and Working Genius and Myers Briggs, so many other tools help us be able to name some of the gap of why we're not receiving.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or in your case, in your work, the invitation is to identify the trauma that has caused the maladaptive behavior and the ill-fitting, you know, coping mechanisms that aren't serving us or serving others well.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I just love that you went down this because this is, you know, again, maybe you're not sure what it is you need.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know how to name it.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have language around it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a resource like this you can pick up, kind of flip through and go, oh, oh yeah, my soul needed this.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is where I was, I didn't have words for, but this is what in essence I was feeling, or I needed to have an answer or language around it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this this resource is such a gift for that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: So well done.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I, you know, it makes me think of, I mean, I think that's beautiful.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I love, you know, I think all those tools you named exactly, you know, have such um helpful impact around building awareness, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um, as you're speaking about that, the other thing it makes me think of is how often um it becomes like in a culture where maybe having needs has been seen as being lots of things, maybe weak, maybe in some faith spaces, even sinful.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in some, I mean, there's all these things that happen.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and then you put us in the context of our culture where it's like a lot of times we equate being strong with basically just being so stoic that you could be a statue and just not be a human, sort of.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that is seen as being really like good and admirable, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So then for anyone who is hearing this and you hear these this concept, I find that this is such a tender space.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it looks different for different people.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Some people have shame about having needs, right?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and therefore it's like they know they have needs, but it feels shameful.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a whole, you know, piece of work that we can do around the compassion um that we are invited to to have even have needs.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a piece of work around for the folks who maybe they've gotten so used to not having needs that they don't even know that they have needs.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: To be so independent, to be in control and in charge.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so a practice like this, because that's even how I think of this work, is like it, like the whole book is essentially a practice.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the practice is to say, if we were to just be able to stop and listen to your body, because I think that's a that's an important way that, you know, we're sort of able to listen to that truth teller of our nervous system, of our body.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you, you know, like the way that the book is set up, I forget how many little chapters, but it's, you know, probably at least 20 little chapters.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if we asked ourselves what we needed and we read over there's over those things, what do you notice?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do we notice?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we just begin to get curious because sometimes this is the way that we rebuild what is called interoception.
• 18:08
  unknown: Okay.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the ability to use that attention that you're speaking of to almost guide us towards the internal sensations we experience in our body.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And many, many people in our culture have been cut off from this form of awareness of interoception.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the cool thing is, the beautiful thing is, is that our bodies, um, neuroplasticity, like those things that have sort of like not gotten a lot of use, like they can sort of rebuild.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can gain that awareness back, just like a muscle, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's maybe gotten weakened.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: We can rebuild it.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I realize we're going on another tangent, but it's good, good.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is why this book, I'm actually really excited about it.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even though, in a way, the concept is simple, it's fun for me almost to be like, okay, here's all these books I've written, and I hope it's helpful.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: But also, let me invite you deeper.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, in a simple bite-sized way.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the other thing, too, is that I've had men, I've had several people come to me, even just in the fall, I was at a speaking event, and a woman came up to me and she told me, she said she had heard me on a popular podcast, and and the and it resonated really deeply with her, but she was so in the weeds.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I really wanted to read your book.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I literally, I just my body wouldn't let me.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I listened to your this podcast like five times.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Before I was ready to read the book.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I did.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, and it was she talked about, you know, and and doing some of her own other work.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but we talked about how important that felt for her to have the bite-sizedness of that.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that this concept of take what you need, it's like that there are times, there are days, there are spaces when it's like, oh, maybe what's most kind is just to have this little bit right now.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: We do talk a lot about that concept, especially uh last month through the month of January.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I did episodes around the rhythms that we talk about every year.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: We've done it for eight years.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: But what is it like to engage in those rhythms when you've when you're going through the dark night of the soul or things are really tough?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I have experienced just one thing after another the last several years.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: My friends have heard about it a lot, but just the gift of one scripture.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe you can get through a whole psalm.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't for in my darkest days.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: It was one scripture, one little nugget.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's that similar vein of thinking.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to go back to you used a big word.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think you called it interceptor.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what is um it's tell me more intero, yeah, interoception.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, interoception.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us more because that's a big word.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just curious about it.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, so I do I talk about this for folks who are interested.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I actually go over this in TriSofter.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are these different types of somatic in body awareness.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so one is exteroception.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like our awareness of like what is outside of us.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that a lot of people that feels pretty like intuitive, like exteroception, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's proprioception.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm saying that right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where our body is in space.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so like note, you know, so this is like when we're moving, when we're, you know, playing, when we're out in the world, like we're utilizing proception.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Prioception, no kind of just noticing sort of that um where we are um within the context of time and space.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And but this last one, interoception, is sort of like when, you know, so something I do a lot with clients is maybe we're talking about something and I, and you know, maybe I am noticing that this particular um piece that this person is sharing, um, that I can just sense that, you know, maybe it's connected to something layered or painful.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I might just briefly pause them and ask, you know, as you're naming that, I'm curious what you're noticing in your body.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe folks have heard that kind of language.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are you noticing in your body?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So interoception is the mechanism by which we are able to notice what's happening in our body.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so when we're having different experiences, another thing I go over in Trisofter is like what's called in somatic work is called tracking.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like having a sensation in your body and if and learning to sort of pay attention to it and just noticing if it's moving, is it shifting?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times in trauma work, this is the process through which sort of something ultimately becomes digested and metabolized in our body.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So these tools are really central.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think of this as like the real base level piece of being able to do body work.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because and our body, of course, is informing other things, meaning how we feel, like our emotions are not just a thought, they're informed by the sensations we're experiencing in our body and our and the stories we tell ourselves are are informed by our nervous system state and our body sensations, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they're all really intertwined.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of people, they've never even heard that.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because what most of us have learned we're basically like a head on a stick.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that is a little bit how we tend to be invited to operate.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, so the work of interoception is really the practice of learning to be able to turn our attention within to what we're experiencing in our body.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a caveat I want to give is that for folks who may have a history of unresolved trauma, and this is where trauma work, we always, you know, I'm you probably notice in my work, I use a lot of caveats, things like at the pace you're able, if it feels like a resource, you can stop at any time, right?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I'm trying to do is build that awareness that trauma is literally held in the body.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you are a person who's been really disconnected from your body, and then suddenly you're trying to turn inward, that's not bad.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it can get, it can store, it can be flooding.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: If we are not also feeling really supported.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And like we have those, yeah, the safety, the resources to turn towards what we're experiencing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, so that interoception is just this really important piece.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I just can't um even say enough about how this is such a huge, it's so integrated.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's integrated into things like our attachment styles, it's integrated into, you know, trauma healing, nervous system health.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and really from a spiritual standpoint, I think that, you know, many of us, again, have been have been taught that faith is sort of something that happens, sort of like this floaty outside of us experience.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just would invite folks to consider that really, I mean, I think this is in some ways the beauty of the incarnation of Jesus is that our God was embodied.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a model for us about embodied faith.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: That faith is actually meant to be experienced to the extent we're able, right?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So bringing that trauma-informed lens, um, but ultimately that it would be a resource um to our whole selves, including our bodies.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, thank you for giving more because it's different to read.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for my friends who've read Tri-Softer, maybe you're like, oh yeah, and maybe it wasn't pronouncing the word correctly as I was reading it.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And now you hear it and you're like, oh yeah, yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: So go back and I think that's great to call to mind that foundation, or if our friend hasn't read it to get Tri-Softer.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I do really think that this resource kind of takes that to another level and also breaks it down like simultaneously.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: It does both.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think this is kind of a key piece too, because I I want to move into that concept about as we we are building our table, like we're taking um time and consideration to intentionally consider who's sitting at our table, who gets to have input in our life, who no voice gets to be louder than God's, but how do we discern or use those voices to help us discern things to heal, to maybe try softer than maybe the tables we've built before.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you talked about a little bit like shame tends to come up, um, maybe even like that um the independence or control mechanism that comes up.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was also thinking about how anxiety and fear, because that tends to be my first thing that pops up.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of times those emotions, we're not, we we don't even have a name for it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: We just feel something or something we know is happening, but we're not sure what it is.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you you kind of set a foundation of things to be in tune and aware of.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do we use some of this and and just give us wisdom as we're building out our table?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe we're even um maybe we're moving some seats at our table because they they aren't going to be um what we need right now as we continue on our healing.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And not that they're bad, they don't have to necessarily be bad or awful.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like there, there might be those, but maybe it's just we need something different to help us get to where we need to go.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think this is a really important question.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think my disclaimer from the beginning is is we could probably write just an entire book about just this question.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to honor.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know that this is so true.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is, I mean, again, because we were made for relationship, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a biological imperative that we have connection.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, truly.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just can't overstate the importance of feeling like not only do, yes, we like are made for God, but we are made for each other, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that sometimes, you know, those things they they inform each other and they impact each other.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like if we've been harmed by people, that can affect our experience of God, or like there's all these different ways this is interconnected.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think one of the things that I would say as I as I hear this question is a lot of times, like let's say you are a person who's been experiencing some pain interpersonally, and you're noticing that and and you're like not quite sure what to do about it, you know.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I because I think this is a really common place where we start to ask this question.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's valid.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think part of it, the work is is um, I mean, this is gonna not seem like it's connected, but it actually I think is really impactful.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And something I talk about in both of my books, and I do touch on in Take What You Need, is concepts like the window of tolerance.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the window of tolerance just really, you know, from a basic perspective, is it's a range of arousal in which we can sort of be fully connected to ourselves.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in our nervous system, like we're kind of safe and social.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're sort of the most our God-given self when we're in that place.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when our body perceives a certain level level of threat, and it could be real or perceived, which I think is important to understand, we may start to leave that window.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when we might go into things like fight or flight.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: We might go into like a fawn response, which is, you know, over-accommodating, people pleasing.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or we might drop into like a dorsal, um, which would be like sort of dissociative.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I feel out of it.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like myself, I feel disconnected.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason I'm bringing this up is because relational pain, just like a car accident, could impact us and send us out of our window of tolerance into like a flight response.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And until that gets fully metabolized by our body, that can impact us.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, like let's say you're a person who's had um, you know, relational wounds, relational pain, which to some extent all of us will have.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: All of us, yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: We can all raise our hands to that one.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: We can all raise our hands, even people who've experienced what I would call good, this is not my term, but good enough parenting.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So like a certain level of supportiveness, none of us get through life unscathed.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm bringing that up to say because relational pain may drive us out of that window because our body will interpret that relational threat.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's say someone left us out.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say someone was shaming towards us, let's say someone um we perceive that they like somebody else better than us, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's all these different ways that it can touch on things and shoot us out of that window of tolerance.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what I think is important to understand is if we can just even begin to notice that's happening, this is a really important piece because when we're making decisions like who sits at our table, we want to do what we can to at least have what I would call one foot in that window.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning we've got some connection to safety.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've got some connection to like I feel like myself, you know, like I like because sometimes we try to make these decisions like you're in, you're out.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:01
  unknown: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not a good way to do it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and it's like it's not to say that that pain's not valid.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is valid pain, but we first want to attend to the pain, we want to do what we can to get regulated again, we want to honor what's coming up, and we want to bring the wisdom of what we experience with us.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're not ignoring it, we are just doing what Dan Siegel calls thinking about thinking.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where that awareness that you're talking about comes up.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's the ability to be with the pain versus get lost in the pain.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so until we can create a just a we need at least a little bit of space in an so that we can then sort of almost think of like we want to give the pain a seat at the table.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because we want to say, oh, oh honey, what's her name?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear like that matters to me.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: It matters to me that you got left out, it matters to me that you feel like you're not being seen.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that what you hear from the pain is the full truth, but it does mean that it matters.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And when we are sort of connected to that sort of adult self in that window of tolerance, then we can make some decisions that are a little bit more grounded, a little bit more in alignment, you know, hopefully allowing the full wisdom of like things like our faith and our values and those things to also help us make decisions.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we do that, then we can begin to say, this person maybe isn't a bad person, but like they're pretty consistently not following through.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for me to honor how I feel and not from a place like sometimes that might mean a conversation and sometimes it may not.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just changing your internal expectation to say maybe they're not at the closest table, right?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe that's not the person that I'm able to expect.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know that they haven't been able to show up, and I'm going to honor myself by not continuing to expect that things will be different.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when we can come to that place, now that person might have some really good reasons for that, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: So their own stuff and their Yeah, like they're a human and they have their things.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this work is, and it's not to say that there haven't been people who have also harmed that can you can also have been harmed.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's valid too, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's all this nuance, right?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what I want to invite people to understand is that your deepest wisdom, both from your God-given wisdom in your body, but also and in partnership with God, comes when we are connected to that window of tolerance.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and because then we begin to be able to, it's not easy, but we get to be able to make some choices.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there might be a season where you're like, I think I just need a little bit of space, not from a place of like wanting to hurt that person, but to honor what I've experienced.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's say in six months, you're just really noticing a shift.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: You notice that this person is, they are making an effort, they are following through, they are doing all these things, that might mean that things shift again.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's this is the beauty of this kind of work is that when we can come from a place where we are responding, yes, very key.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of reacting, there's the potential to act on behalf of wholeness and not only just for you, but really for the other person too.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because then we're not just like, it's not to say that there's not times we wouldn't want to have a discussion or a confrontation.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if we're only doing it, if we're always or only doing it from the place of pain.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I find for most people, um, things come out sideways.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: We say something we didn't mean.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: We we do something that's not in alignment with our values.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: We, you know, we do these things and we're like, why did I, why did I do that?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that's not me.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how I treat people.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and I think this is a great point of faith integration, even too, like repentance, that ability to turn.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and we can honor why we did it and take responsibility for maybe doing something that we that wasn't fair or helpful.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then we come, and then so we sort of get to come home again, right?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is a really long explanation to say, I think, you know, in a way, we're always getting to ask who is at your table.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you have permission from a place of there's nothing disrespectful about knowing that some people can better hold space for you than others.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's right.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: That is that's actually wisdom.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And to discern their unique chapter of life that they're in, and to the point of where this person was able to for a time, and then maybe they're not.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't negate the beauty of what they were able to offer for the time that they offered.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: It just might need you, you've turned the page to the next chapter, and there needs to be someone else, or they need to be there for someone else.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't, and I just want to name that there's often grief with that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is totally normal and and also worth tending.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where this work, in a way, it is such circular work because then we can try softer again, right?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: We can, we can, we can bring compassion to to that pain.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean um, right, like it's sort of like I think real maturity is the ability to honor pain without having to feel entitled to harm someone else or to villainize.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that doesn't mean that if someone has harmed you, that you don't acknowledge it or advocate for yourself, but this maturity really comes from that ability to respond rather than react.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you use that word because that is it a lot of the work that I do.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: I use, I integrate faith and Enneagram in within the coaching content that I utilize.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of this is building the understanding and awareness of the reaction, to notice the reaction, but learning how to respond from a place of wholeness, which is ultimately God's got your back.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: But so that way we don't live in the dichotomous thinking that each of us are uniquely prone to, where we're throwing tables, turning them over, maybe, you know, kicking people out of their chairs, right?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because that is a reactive response that people might provoke in us because of harm that's been done before, because of past build relationships or because of trauma or because of the own, our own, you know, bodies telling us something or giving us indication.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it is that like um in maturity over time to notice the reaction, the honest reaction, but then also going, where do I come go from here thoughtfully and intentionally, instead of just like thinking I have to clear this table out, clear this space out, and instead thoughtfully, maybe it's it's just a reassignment and it's not kicking them totally out of your life because they don't serve you the same way they did before.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anytime we can do what we can to slow it down.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if our instinct is, oh man, I here's all the, here's what I'm experiencing, here's what I'm feeling.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even if the resource is just simply like, you know, to our bodies, it might be like, I believe you.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you're in pain.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: That that that matters.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is valid.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's telling us something, right?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now we don't know yet.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it only about that person?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is it about that person and from something from the past?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it maybe only something from the past?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: We may not, we may not know yet.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can give ourselves permission to to honor the information and just slow it down, like you know what?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: If in if in a couple days you want to reassign the seat, you get to reassign the seat.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: But what, but could I just give myself that permission, right?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where that window of tolerance work.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just such a tangible, like, let me return home, you know, sort of back to myself first.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll decide.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll decide then what comes next.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's exactly what you know, you're sort of naming in that process is recognizing, okay, here's how this is playing out.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And even that anger, that anger may need a place to be honored, but in a way that isn't gonna be destructive, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right, not harming others, yeah.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like Dr.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Kristen Neff talks about the difference between constructive anger and destructive anger.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a really helpful perspective because we don't want to automatically say any emotion is bad, but how we work with the emotion matters.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and so I just, yeah, I mean, there's so many, this is the work of a lifetime.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is, and like you said, that question alone and this topic alone, it is a whole book and more and an ongoing work in progress.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I would love to unpack this more.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like we would need hours, but this is what I hope to offer is you know, the snippet.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like we've absolutely you've shared so much wisdom in a short amount of time here for people to take that next step as they think about intentionally building their table, inviting people, maybe reassigning seats at the table, if you will.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: And this is like typically just a reminder again, this is mostly an internal work between you.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the Lord and journal, you're not like sit making place settings and telling people they belong or don't or where they sit now because of where they sat before, like just to be clear.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as we finish here, the you know, I want to invite people to take that next step with you.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, whether it's try softer again or take what you need, is there anything else that you would just love to share with us, whether it's about your resource or this conversation that you want to encourage my friend listening right now, um, that, you know, that bit of wisdom that she needs?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think one of the heartbeats of my work, and I and I wonder if it might be helpful for your listeners, um, is just a simple concept that I've been I've been saying for a while.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's the turn the words I've been using is um that we would work from love instead of for it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: So and I and I think that so many of us um in our culture, um, and and and I think this is the wider culture.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes a lot of times in Christian culture too, though, because I think our our view of what it means to be loved sometimes has been positioned through how helpful you are.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um how I don't know, how much service, you know, like whatever that is.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to me, I just it in a way, it almost brings us back to the beginning of the conversation, which is that working from love is almost like the prerequisite is that we would access love, that we would partake of love, that we would receive the love that God has for us, that we would steward that in the ways that we're able.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because in that work, I think we almost cannot help but allow that love to come through us.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so in this orientation of all of these things, it seems so basic, but I really do think like this is often the entryway that many of us miss.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um that would be an encouragement that I have.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, it's so simple, but it's not easy.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that is why the wholehearted journey is a journey.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Step by step, start where you are.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just keep going together.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So Andy, thank you.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for imparting your wisdom and your grace and your beauty and just the acceptance.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Even just your your tonal fluctuations and your words.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: It just it's um it speaks of who you are and what you do on the regular.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for offering some of you today and your your whole heart here.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: What a great conversation.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I knew Andy was going to be a delight to talk to.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: And not only was she, obviously, but I believe she really added such a meaningful addition to this building your table series.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Her insights about self-awareness, emotional healing, and relational discernment help remind me that building a whole-hearted table isn't about exclusivity.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's about intentionality and creating space for relationships that will help you heal, grow, and thrive.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if this episode was valuable to you, I encourage you to share it with a friend who needs this information.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to check out Andy's new book, Take What You Need, for the bite-sized encouragement as you go on your own healing journey.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, you can definitely give her a shout out and a thanks on Instagram.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: And all the links for that are in the show notes.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Again, if you would like to know more about how your personality type influences your approach to relationships, grief, and healing, I'd love to connect.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a few more spots on my calendar for a zero-cost complimentary clarity call to explore how understanding yourself can help you discern who belongs at your table.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, our show notes always have lots of details about the latest happening here at Simply Wholehearted, and we'd love for you to check those out while you share this episode with others.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Friend, I'm hoping this series has been meaningful to you.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're enjoying these conversations around building your wholehearted table.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited because next week, Dr.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Mike Bechtel is joining us again in the podcast to talk about his new book, How to Read a Room.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're going to really value the wisdom that he offers as you continue to invite people who offer wisdom and discernment and safety as you continue on your wholehearted journey.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because remember, friend, we're all broken, we're all blowing in.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: The brave one does something about it.