Latest / Mixed Perspectives Podcast / Hard Magic vs Soft Magic - Which Makes a Better Fantasy Story | Ep 3
Transcript
- speaker-0: I'm just gonna say this, the best fantasy stories are loose magic systems. That's it. That's all it is. speaker-1: I disagree. Every climax of his stories, he gets to characters in positions you're like, how the crap are they gonna survive? speaker-0: And he said this is the book that got him into writing. How have I gone almost forty years of my life without realizing like and then after I got the book and read it and looked it up, like, ⁓ this is like one of the most famous books of all time. How I've never read this book. speaker-1: Welcome everybody to our podcast, The Mixed Perspectives. We have a title now. I am your host, Aaron. And I'm a manual. And we are brothers, as you can tell. We were actually hired originally to ⁓ bring the ring to Mordor, but conflect with our scheduling. It didn't work out, so we hired some off-brand wizard or something in freelance gig and it was a whole thing. So this time, a manual, I think we're gonna talk about some hot takes, even that has to do with magic systems. speaker-0: Super cool. speaker-1: So we are gonna talk about magic systems this podcast. ⁓ specifically ⁓ hard magic and soft magic or like loose and strict magic. Can you explain to our audience who people who might not know the difference between those? Or maybe they're new to the fantasy world and they all never even heard of those tones. speaker-0: I will start by saying this is a false dichotomy. It's there's not a this or that. But because Aaron and I are brothers and let's be honest, everyone's joined this podcast to hear us argue about stuff. So we find this is something that we can we can argue about. So the simple, quick, easy way of thinking the difference between hard and soft magic, some people call it. I'm gonna say strict or loose, because I can't say hard and soft without giggling. It's just come on. It's just ⁓ boy. Let's not use that term. ⁓ is basically speaker-1: 'Cause he's a preteen. speaker-0: Are there strict rules to this magic system, or is it more there's yeah, there's less there's less strict rules. And so an example, a simple example would be Harry Potter, for example, would be a loose magic system. There's not predefined rules. For for example, you don't have to have a sh a chart or a sheet to figure out, you know, this character can use this magic, this lets them do this, and this person has a weak spot. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: ⁓ hard magic is exactly what I just said, where it's there's rules and characters depending on what type of magic they use can do or cannot do certain things. Often there's energy levels and blah blah blah. ⁓ and this the simple difference that I've noticed is probably or that where they seem to be used is hard magic stuff tends to be more stories that are more combat based. ⁓ whereas loose magic is just general stories. ⁓ in the fantasy world, you just don't really need there's no reason to have it be strict. So ⁓ that's how I would define it. I was actually talking to my wife about this earlier. She'd never heard the term and we ch we chatted about it. So speaker-1: Yeah. You'd be enlightened. The way I would describe it is like what he said. One of it is ⁓ I mean Brandon Sanderson pretty much made it into the commonality of what's going on recently. ⁓ but I mean like even if you go back to Wheel of Time, ⁓ you know, his his magic system with how Cidar and Sidene works is pretty strict as far as like we understand the limitations, but then as it goes on, we learn more about it, which doesn't necessarily mean it's loose, it just means that we learn more. ⁓ a great way, Lord of the Rings has both magic systems. ⁓ what can the ring do? It can make at least for Frodo, it can make most people just turn it visible. We know exactly what it does. What can Gandalf do? What the plot tells you to do. Like, you know, he can do whatever. So that's loose magic. So that's you that's another way to do it. Now that you guys are enlightened, ⁓ let is talk about different subjects of that. So which do you prefer reading, Emmanuel? Like, do you like andor writing? I guess those are both topics. Do you like reading just loosey goosey or do you like more strict writing styles? I guess it also depends on, you know, ⁓ what mood you're in. least it is for me, but like what do you prefer? If you had to pick up one right now and you're like, this has loose, this is hard, which one you can go? Do it. speaker-0: So if you're gonna go for what's gonna be a better so I'm just gonna say this the best fantasy stories are loose magic systems. That's it. That's all it is. So okay, I'm gonna name all the the the the best selling fantasy stories Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones. No, Lord of the Rings has a ring that makes you invisible and might have but the magic system. There's no magic system. There's magic and the magic has a certain thing. So I think strict magic systems speaker-1: I disagree. The Little Rings has speaker-0: are fun. Like I like so so Wheel of Time was the first one that I would s that I read and I read this. I started reading Wheel of Time I think when I in I don't know, eighth grade maybe I think is when I picked it up. ⁓ and that was my first encounter with more of a strict magic system. I feel like in a lot of ways Robert Jordan kind of invented that way of fantasy where I don't really think I mean 'cause I think Wheel of Time came out in eighty nine. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, it was late eighties. I think he probably made it more famous. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, because I don't I can't I mean I've read stuff predating that and I don't I can't really think of anything that did had like a system the way that he did it. And so I loved it when I first started reading that. I think my issue with strict magic systems, it becomes about the magic system and less about the story. So like I don't know. So for example, Mistborn, you know, you basically have to know all these different metals and you have to basically have a chart, okay, he can do this and he can push and he can pull and he can blah blah blah. Which is fine if I if I'm on that type of mood for a story, but I think often strict magic systems, it becomes about the magic system. Like, okay, which is fine. Like sometimes I love showing an anime 'cause, you know, there's fighting and there's certain s you know, f systems that they're fighting in and you know, okay, these are the weaknesses and the strength. But I don't know, man. I mean, I I feel like it's I've thought about this a lot. I was talking to Stephanie, my wife earlier about it. She's reading ⁓ Name of the Wind right now. And she was what we're talking about. It has, yeah. So we were talking about that's more and that's and this is when they were saying earlier, like it's it is a false dichotomy. It's silly to say that something's dis and this. But that one has rules to its magic, but they're they don't really matter. Like they're interesting, but they have really no attachment to the plot itself. So I guess I don't know. If somebody said, Hey you have to you have to choose, I I would just say, Well, I want to read whatever I want to read right now but speaker-1: So that has hard and loose. ⁓ I'm American, I can do whatever I tell please. speaker-0: Do you think the best the better stories tend to be loose magic systems? Like when I think of the best writers, they're using they're using loose magic systems. speaker-1: I I disagree. speaker-0: I don't know. I can't think of an example speaker-1: I think I think it happens that the old like yes, you you're right. Like I mean, again, it's it is a fake thing, like it loosened hard or whatever, but just for the sake of, you know, this conversation. speaker-0: sake this arguing because that's why people are here paid paid the money, front row seats. speaker-1: That's right, baby. ⁓ I think the fact that the famous ones and the most well sold or whatever are loose are just because that is what it used to be. Like hard magic systems is newer. Like in the past 30, we'll say we're in a 2000 now, so I guess 40 years. Good lord, we're old. Is is like okay, let's say Wheel of Time. Wheel of Time made it famous. Okay. That's only the eighties. Freaking Tolkien came out in like 1900s, early 1900s. So so yeah, you're gonna have a lot of more classics that are more famous, more better, more whatever, more known. But I mean like Sanderson is pretty much like I mean to say that he's a token of our era is, you know, a little too much. But at the same time, he is one of the most famous writers out there currently. And his magic systems are always, as far as I can remember, always hard like magic systems, very strict rules. And you do like, I feel, again, for the sake of argument, I feel like having to You don't like always have to remember a chart. I'm like, yes, you can get in the super nitty gritty of nerdy stuff. But I mean, like, usually once you're in the store, you know the characters, you know, okay, pushing pole, whatever. You you just you just know it. The Way of the Wind, that series, the Stormlight Archive, ⁓ it is about the magic, but it's also about the characters. Like I don't really care, like Dalinar, for instance, whole first book, I mean slight spoilers, but I mean like he doesn't have any magic that we know of, you know, and so and you care about the character. You care about the characters, and that's what's important. Another one that I love and love the series is ⁓ Codex of Valera. Fantastic series. and that one is also about the magic and y you do have I don't know, I would consider probably ⁓ Codex O'Lair a pretty hard magic system as well, because like you know what everyone can do. The slider of how strong or weak it is has to do with bloodlines and blah blah blah. But I mean like most of that is and I think the whole the whole ar part of the argument of like the most famous ones are this, I think it's only because it's been around longer. The soft magic systems has been around longer and I think the new era and the way more writers are now riding harder magic systems. And I think given another thirty years or forty years if the world doesn't implode by then, I think that the people can look back and say the exact opposite of that of the argument. That I mean that's my opinion. Again, does it actually exist? They're both magic. They're both speaker-0: Yeah. I mean I I s I get what you're saying, but I think the problem the d ⁓ I don't like the problem. So let's say the genres are like this. Sci fi we'll say it's it's so h fantasy. The the j like the the the usefulness of a hard magic system is just in a very niche version cross section of fantasy. I think you could put most fantasy it doesn't need to like so for example, ⁓ what's a book I just read recently that was beautiful. ⁓ Paranisi, I think is what it's called. Beautiful, beautiful movie book. Really wild. It's I don't even know. It's like there's zero, there's honestly like zero magic. There's, but the world itself is magical. ⁓ beautifully written. I think I think the trap and sometimes the difficulty of the magic system, and like I said this before, I feel like a lot of times I'm reading, I'll read a I feel like people forget the importance of like. speaker-1: Wonderful. speaker-0: the writing and the story itself and the characters and the storytelling. And it just and again, I like I like hard s magic systems to a degree. ⁓ but sometimes I'll read these books like, ⁓ my gosh, you just had a really you had this idea for a system that you really liked. And then that's all you're I mean, that's just the there's no story here. The characters suck. Your world sucks. You just have this interesting magic system. I don't so I personally don't think it's ever gonna be a thing where it's like a popular thing more than just this niche. That really likes that. Like people the people who like board games and sit down and all the rules and like I don't know. I get, you know, and I again I so and I've written both. Like I f I enjoy as a writer the world building of a magic system. I think it's great. But I think the best writing doesn't need it. It's almost like a crutch. speaker-1: Well, I think it's I think it's the opposite, man. Because like I feel like loose magic is so loosey goosey that that's why people have speaker-0: Well that's what I'm saying. Like they're not reading the story for the magic system, reading the story for the story. And there's magic in it. True. I mean, so I think that's the thing where like if I'm reading a fantasy, and that's you know, if you're reading genre, you're in it for different reasons. Like some people really love the magic, some people like the world, some people like the characters. I mean, so ⁓ I'll go back to Harry Potter because it's a famous one. Like the world of Harry Potter, people love it. Like, I have a neighbor who he redid his entire basement. So it feels like you're in Hogwarts. It's absolutely incredible. He loves the world. He lo yeah, he I mean he is he has no he has no kids. ⁓ double. speaker-1: Okay, that that that does it. Yeah. That'll do it. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ so that's some people like just love the world of it. And so there's magic it's a very magical world, but they don't care that there's no hard system. Like, okay, so you know, why is Dumbledore so strong? We don't know. He's just the best wizard. But why is he the best wizard? I don't know. I don't think you ever really learn why he is. I think the story. speaker-1: Yeah, but I see I mean yes, yes. I don't think so. I don't know. See like here's my problem with loose magic. Like again, I'll read both and I like it doesn't really exist, but whatever, for the sake of argument. I feel like a lot of times least I mean I can think of a specific thing that really bugged me with loose magic recently is because like I was reading a book I I think of the Emperor saga or Ember Saga. I It's it's pretty much a it's a literally it's a it's a dragon egg found boy rebellion story. Good good series. But it has a it has a semi loose magic system where you know, like a lot of people, you become part of a linked with a dragon, therefore now you're magical. Fine. You know, that's fine. But then like how it comes about is what annoys me. And again, this is like a first time writer, so whatever. But like he's sword fighting, he's sparring, and he's like getting beat. And so he just like makes the ground ice. We've never seen that ability before. We don't know how he did it. And he just did it and his opponent slips. And like that's just like a cheap cop out that I feel people who don't haven't read fantasy before always say like, ⁓ you can do anything in fantasy. Like that, I think that that loose magic is one of the reasons why they think that. Which again, you can make anything happen in any like it's a false argument to people say like you can make anything happen. Well you can do that in any book. But I do feel that like loose magic systems is a reason why people think that because they use it as like a Deus Machina kind of thing. Where it's like, you know, I I for those of you who don't know the term is like, you know, because of the gods interfered, you you write yourself in a trap and then you have to come up with a random thing. And it used to be like in the old ways that the gods saved it. So now it's like loose magic saved it. Gandalf came and he made things happen. And again, like if you lead up to that and you you guess it and you do the like you know when Gandalf came and saved everyone at Helm's Deep, you weren't crying about the fact that he can make the sun kind of come up and like you don't care. It's freaking awesome. But because he he he set that, at least in the movies, he said that like he's coming if you live out this long. But for that particular scene, I remember reading that and I'm like, that's so lame. Because like there was no progression. There was no practice. There he was just like Now he's magical, so therefore this. And that that feels like that was what annoys me a lot of loose magic. Now, I don't mind reading it, ⁓ but I do feel like some of the stories that I find like super appealing is one, like I understand the magic system. And I'm not a I'm not one of those nerds that I'll go deep. Like there's some people who like ask Sanderson questions and I'm like, Did we read the same book? Like they have so much complex questions. But like, you know, I'll I'll do it on the surface level of like I understand the main gist of it and ⁓ I usually find those stories more entertaining because like I I know what what good guy can do, bad guy can do. Holy crap, bad guy is way better because XYZ, how is he gonna live? And that's why I love if you never read Codex of Alayer, which I know you haven't, I know you're used to it, but audience, if you never read it, ⁓ Jim Butcher, who's the author, he every climax of his stories, he gets the characters in positions you're like, how the crap are they gonna survive this? It's like again and again and again. ⁓ and it's phenomenal how he does it. And I would say it's pretty hard magic. But again, it's not really like you're not really there necessarily for the magic. I think you're there for the characters. So like you said, you know, hard magic, a lot of times you're there for the magic. No, I I like the characters. I give it's a hard magic system, like a nerdy one that you were talking about, the characters suck, the characters suck. I that's the whole point of why Jim Butcher started the Codic Valeria. It was a it was a dare. 'Cause he like one guy said you have to have world building, which is a whole nother conversation we'll gonna happen later. Like world building without goodwill building it's nothing. And he's like, No, if you have good characters, it's everything. And that's what matters. And so he had a made a bet. He's like, All right, give me something and I'll make a series out of it. And he's like, Pokemon and the Lost Legion. And he made like a six book series of Codex Alera. One of the best, like, Roman style military books you'll ever read in your entire life. ⁓ and so like I think that book alone kind of proves the fact that like the characters is who I care about. I care about Tavi and having him progress is awesome. But I feel like if that was a loose magic system, it wouldn't be near as cool. Because like You know, if Toby can just do whatever then like you don't earn the especially like the last minute saves of stuff, like you lose something. Yeah. speaker-0: I mean I get I get what we're saying, but again, you're talking about a very niche, a very, very niche you're talking about military combat s fantasy, which is not all fantasy. That's a small, very and I know that's green and I get it. That's not that's like there's so much so I've got this I my my darling wife got me this. speaker-1: Okay, okay, okay. It's awesome. speaker-0: Awesome. For my for Yeah, it's super cool. ⁓ That's legit. And it's all fantasy of all different types. And some are combat. Like there's so I guess I feel like we're just gonna argue in circles, but like I th so when you say people are gonna remember, I don't think that's true. I think people who like a certain niche story type, which is combat, military, fantasy, are gonna like hard magic. I think as a genre, it's None it's not important. Like my wife doesn't care if it's hard magic or soft magic. She wants a great story, a great world. ⁓ speaker-1: We call those people naive. speaker-0: Well because people I would never I would never claim. speaker-1: I'm s I'm just kidding Steph if you're watching this. I'm just kidding. Love you. See ya. See ya Chris. speaker-0: So yeah, I don't know. I mean I I enjoy so when I'm when I'm so let's dive into okay, why do we pick a certain type of writing style system, et cetera. So like if I'm writing something, so I writing something I was affectionately calling Wizards in Space a few years ago, where it was like ⁓ Wizards in Space. I like that. And it was a very hard it's a very hard magic system because I needed I wanted it to be kinda like you were saying, it was had had a lot of action and it was s it's not Star Wars adjacent, but co had like the big set pieces and blah blah blah. And then having a hard magic system gave me rules because it was kind of like ⁓ I guess I don't know, Hogwarts in space is what I was calling their the castle. That so they had all these wizards and for me it was helpful. They were trying to collect these different wizards from different planets. Like I needed some kind of system. I didn't want to do the house system that JK Rowling did. So I was using magic systems as like the house. And so that was really helpful for me ⁓ when developing that world ⁓ trying to think of a s another story type I've had recently that it's more loose magic. speaker-1: The rifting one. speaker-0: The rifting one. ⁓ I mean that was like it was becoming more of a hard magic system. So dear reader, slash listener, slash watcher, actually nobody's reading this, but I mean maybe maybe subtitles. ⁓ when Aaron's talking about the rifts here. So one of my first stories I ever wrote, I never actually even named it, I was calling Rifting something, but it was ⁓ a story speaker-1: Subtitles. speaker-0: That would be it was very much influenced by whatever I was reading at the time. So first it was influenced by Dune, and then it was influenced by Wheel of Time. And then it got influenced by well, maybe Ender's game, probably. It was just like it just kept changing. So I think I just stopped writing it because I needed to just move on with the life. But ⁓ but that was that's an example of a story that didn't have a magic system at all. And then like because it was more of a sci fi, and then I flipped it to being more of a fantasy, and I'm like, ⁓ I'm reading Wheel of Time, that's got a hard magic system. I guess this is what I'll do. And I liked how it was and it was again, it was very combat based. Yeah. So I don't know. I I all have to say I feel like it's a default dichotomy I know you like you like it a lot. And I don't I'm not saying I don't like hard magic. I just don't I it does I don't need to read a hard magic system. Like yeah. speaker-1: And and I know and again, it's like it's what we said, like technically it's through it's all made up. So but but ⁓ you know, if you put a line in the sand. And I write usually I write harder magic because most of my stuff is more action based. ⁓ because it is. I didn't ever th thought about it until you mentioned that. But yeah, you're right. Like usually hard magic is more convenient when it is something. If I read more like I don't know, if I read more romantic, maybe there's a hard magic system like a pull off of the to to fight you, but I don't I don't know. I don't read that. ⁓ but like U usually usually I write harder magic. Though I think the the most soft magic that I've written is one my my fantasy that's my mentor one. Which ⁓ for you dear listeners, I actually came up with a awesome idea. ⁓ which the pitch for this one is like, you know, I'll always the mentor in stories die. Like, you know, ⁓ Gandalf dies, ⁓ Mo Moraine, ⁓ the wheel of time, she dies. There's always like the mentor always dies. Yoda dies. speaker-0: Yoda dies, Obi Wan die. speaker-1: Obi Wan and then I thought, like, what if there is a world that like the opposite happens? Cause usually like it's this young buck kid that somehow lives and the guy with like hundreds of years of experience he's he died, bites the dust. I'm like, You kidding me? So I made it the opposite. And I also made it like a kind of a comedy. ⁓ so he has this bag that has to do with quantum realm and he can pretty much grab whatever he wants out of it that he put in there and like it works. And like that's like the softest kind of magic that I have. ⁓ and it is fun. I mean, but again, I do it more for kicks 'cause that's what like a lot of people do. So like he comes out and there's like, you know, ⁓ a massive shield, you know, that's like ice or something for the specific reason and stuff. And it's usually for laughs. So that's like the lightest one I've done. But I find usually hard magic I like it more because it it gets me in the lane of like like Sanderson has a has a thing where he talks about the more your reader understands said magic, the better when it comes to problem solving, it feels like he accomplished something. You know? Because if Gandalf is stuck, he can just talk to a moth and then there's freaking eagles that come and save him. You know? Like But I mean like if Vin, who's the main character in this Mistborn series, is captured and all of her medals, which is powers of magic, is gone, which does happen, you're like, crap, what does she do? You know? And so and because of other magic systems and things like she gets out and like the way that's done, I feel it's way more satisfying seeing Vin escape than seeing Gandalf talk to a moth and then eagles come, you know? Like that's that's kinda what I'm saying. And again, w it's it's neither it's neither here nor there and stuff. So dear listeners, I have a challenge for you. One, write in the comments which one you like preferred, hard or soft, or a mix of both, which is fine. ⁓ Lord of Rings is that most famous, you know. ⁓ also, if you have only read sock magic systems and that's your thing, I challenge you to read a harder magic system. ⁓ one great example, like I said, Codex of ELERA. ⁓ another one, any of the Sanderson Cosmere, ⁓ all those are hard magic systems. So if you are in the like you know, you're afraid or never have read a soft ma hard magic system, do that. Soft magic systems, same thing. If you're only like, you know, lit RPG is usually hard, I guess, you know, that's a very niche thing. ⁓ but if you're like me who usually only reads hard magic or a lot of times, challenge you to read a soft magic. ⁓ what's a good soft magic that people can look at, Emmanuel? I mean you you know more than I do because you read speaker-0: That. Well, I mean, so there's the famous ones. ⁓ you know, which you're already gonna know, Harry Potter and Lord of Rings and Game of Thrones. I mean, Name of the Wind, I would still consider a soft magic thing. And here's the thing: if you're reading soft magic, you don't even know hard magic and soft magic is even a thing. Like there's there's no that's a that's a made-up term that isn't real. ⁓ a book I read recently, I'd actually got it for Stephanie for Christmas. ⁓ it's Almost like a Studio Ghibli inspired story. It's like it's it's it's an anime as a as a book. It's really cool. ⁓ but that's called Watermoon. It's very I guess you'd call it loose magic, ⁓ but it's you're it's Japanese inspired. So there's no it there's a world that's w wildly imaginative and it's I just loved it. I mean it's It's a romance lightly. There's a lot of romance in it, but there's ⁓ there's a mystery, there's ⁓ adventure. ⁓ but I think for the story like that, having a stricter magic system would have ruined it. ⁓ so that's one that I just recently read that I just think is fantastic. Another soft magic system, or just not a magic system at all, would be like something like The Last Unicorn. I'd probably argue is a more of a fairy tale than a fantasy. speaker-1: Which speaker-0: Well it's in that world, but but man, that book's good. Phew. Talk about writing speaker-1: I don't know if I've actually finished it. speaker-0: We can talk. We I feel like we need a whole episode on on those books. Like I reading picking up the last unicorn for me was like realizing I've been eating junk fast food my entire life and finally getting a real gourmet meal. ⁓ especially as a writer, it was just like ⁓ my gosh. Like the length speaker-1: That's Darnia, right? Darnia, right? speaker-0: The last unicorn is no, it's its own Peter Bragel, ⁓ it's its own story, standalong story. There is a you're talking about probably the horse and his boy for the for the Narni. Well speaker-1: Yeah, I think you're right. Unicorn. I mean I'm searching it up here. speaker-0: Or sorry, is it P is it Peter Beagle or Peter Bragel? Peter Beagle, my apologies. Yeah, so the reason I picked up the last unicorn, it was the forward, they had a new edition. The forward was written by Patrick Rothfuss, who wrote Name of the Wind, and he said, This is the book that got him into writing. I'm like, well, if he's saying that, I need to read this book. And for some reason, I don't know how this is possible. I was, I mean, I didn't read the book until maybe three or four years ago. Like, how have I gone almost forty years of my life without realizing like and then after I got the book and read it and looked it up, like, ⁓ this is like one of the most famous books of all time. How do I have never read this book? speaker-1: It's like Matt Raiden, no one Lord of Rings exists. speaker-0: Well, so it's interesting because though he wrote the screenplay adaptation for Lord of the Rings back in the seventies, like the animated one. So he he's the one who wrote that like script. So I mean it's it's a beautiful book. I mean, it's absolutely incredible. ⁓ haunting and just it's beautiful. But anyway, that's another story where I like ⁓ Strict's magic system would ruin it. Like Yeah. So I those are some those are some recommendations I can toss out there. Hopefully it's helpful to everybody. speaker-1: So, dear listeners, I hope you didn't get too bored with two brothers arguing over your things. And now you can see why at Thanksgiving they tell us to shut up. But you know, it it is what it is. speaker-0: They tell us to leave the room or like Yeah, you know. Can you guys go talk about that over somewhere else? speaker-1: Yeah, like your his boys will go outside and start throwing balls or something and and that's when we start nerding out because then our wives aren't there to tell us to stop. ⁓ so we do that. ⁓ cool. Awesome listeners. So that's what you do. Write in the comments which one you prefer. We gave you some great recommendations. ⁓ also there's a bazillion I have on the books that you could do. I'm sure there's Google lists and maybe we'll we'll come up our own list of good ones in the future. ⁓ until then, this has been the amazing mixed perspectives, and we hope to see you next podcast. Peace out. See you guys.