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The History of Freemasonry with Angel Millar · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see somethings are going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: What Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we're joined
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  Speaker 1: again by Angel Milar, author, lecturer, artist, martial artist, and
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  Speaker 1: longtime student of esotericism, initiation, symbolism, and freemasonry. Angel has
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  Speaker 1: written widely of Masonic history, Western esoteric traditions, Islam and freemasonry,
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  Speaker 1: initiatic spirituality, archetype, self development, and the deeper question of
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  Speaker 1: what it means for a human being to be shaped
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  Speaker 1: by ritual And today we're going straight into one of
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  Speaker 1: the biggest and most misunderstood subjects in Western esotericism, the
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  Speaker 1: history of freemasonry. For a lot of people, ole freemasonry
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  Speaker 1: is either reduced to conspiracy theory, old men and aprons,
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  Speaker 1: secret handshakes, founding fathers, or vague rumors about hidden power.
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  Speaker 1: But when you actually look at the history, it opens
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  Speaker 1: into something much more complicated and much more interesting. Medieval craft, guilds,
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  Speaker 1: cathedral builders, enlightenment, politics, ritual theater, biblical symbolism, sacred geometry, fraternalism, class, mobility,
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  Speaker 1: imperial networks, revolution, anti masonic, panic, race, religion, morality, masculinity, charity,
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  Speaker 1: and the whole question of initiation in the modern West.
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  Speaker 1: So today I want to strip away the cheap version
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  Speaker 1: of the subject and get into the real one. Where
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  Speaker 1: did freemasonry come from, What did operative masonry become when
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  Speaker 1: it turned speculative? How much of Masonic history is documented
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  Speaker 1: and how much is mythic self fashioning? Why did the
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  Speaker 1: lodge become such a powerful space for men, politics, philosophy,
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  Speaker 1: ritual and secrecy. What did freemasonry preserve from older religions
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  Speaker 1: and esoteric currents, and what did it invent for the
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  Speaker 1: modern world. I do have Judith, she should be she
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  Speaker 1: should be joining us a little bit later. But uh yeah,
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  Speaker 1: what we got is me and then Angel right now.
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  Speaker 1: So that's enough out of me. Angel, thank you so
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  Speaker 1: much for coming back on. I'm very excited to have
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  Speaker 1: you on for this topic. I think it would just
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  Speaker 1: be good to hear it out of somebody who's probably
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  Speaker 1: studied the subject a little bit better than some conspiracy
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  Speaker 1: theorist's mouth. So I was hoping to bring somebody a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more of an educated idea of the history
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  Speaker 1: or fee masonry. And I do know that you are
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  Speaker 1: pretty much out of print, like you said, but I
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  Speaker 1: do know you have written extensively on this. Please let
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  Speaker 1: people know. You know, I guess anything that I might have,
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  Speaker 1: you know, left out that you'd like to promote, maybe
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  Speaker 1: those books as well, if you'd like to mention them
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  Speaker 1: and anything else you'd like to promote as you know
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  Speaker 1: as well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just to mention that the first two are
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  Speaker 2: definitely out of print. But my first book was free
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  Speaker 2: Masonry History, which was published by Greenwich Editions in England.
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  Speaker 2: And then my second book, which is almost impossible to get,
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  Speaker 2: is Freemasonry Foundation of the Western Esoteric Tradition. So I
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  Speaker 2: looked at Freemasonry and the Occult. And then the third
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  Speaker 2: book was The President and the Compass, which explored connections
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  Speaker 2: between radical Muslim thinkers and radical sort of Masonic occult
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  Speaker 2: spiritual type of thinkers in the West. Yeah, so those
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  Speaker 2: and then I actually do mention I do have a
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  Speaker 2: little bit of Freemasonry in my recent book Supernatural Woman
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  Speaker 2: and the Male Initiate Bonded through Dreams, which is available.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, people do talk about the ritual in there,
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  Speaker 2: so people.
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  Speaker 1: Are interested in checking that out. He was on the
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  Speaker 1: show for that topic not too long ago. So I
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  Speaker 1: highly suggest if this is the first time you're coming
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  Speaker 1: across Angel, go check out that show after this. I
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  Speaker 1: think you'll enjoy it. Very interesting topic and idea. Thank
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  Speaker 1: you very much Angel for coming on.
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  Speaker 2: No worries.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yes, so did I. That was That was actually
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  Speaker 1: a good discussion. I guess when it comes to you know,
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  Speaker 1: when it comes to freemasonry, for someone who only knows
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  Speaker 1: freemasonry through conspiracy theories, what is the cleanest historical definition
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  Speaker 1: of free reason freemasonry you can get people from your experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a good question. And one thing that
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  Speaker 2: maybe should be said at the beginning is that pretty
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  Speaker 2: much anything you can say about freemasonry you can say
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  Speaker 2: the opposite because it's very complicated. You know, a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people think, well, it's only for men. So yes,
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  Speaker 2: regular freemasonry quote unquote is only initiates men, but there
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  Speaker 2: are also Masonic jurisdictions only initiate women, and others initiate
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  Speaker 2: men and women, and even regular freemasonry has free Masonic
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  Speaker 2: type organizations for women and for men and women. So
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  Speaker 2: pretty much everything you can say about about it can
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  Speaker 2: be contradicted in one way or another. So it's it's complex.
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  Speaker 2: But but essentially if we look at the history. Freemasonry
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  Speaker 2: really emerged out of the stone Masons lodgers or stone
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  Speaker 2: Masons Guild the Mason's Company. In seventeen seventeen, when four
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  Speaker 2: stone Mason's lodgers came together to form a Grand Lodge.
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  Speaker 2: That's really regarded as the say, the official beginning of
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  Speaker 2: free masonry. So before that they were essentially they were
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  Speaker 2: stone mason's lodges, were practicing builders in all of them.
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  Speaker 2: And then these lodges, some of the lodgers started initiating
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  Speaker 2: gentlemen into the lodge who were not members of the
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  Speaker 2: building trade. But essentially, if you go back hundreds of
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  Speaker 2: years or more, it's a lineage of stone masonry stone
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  Speaker 2: Masonic lodgers. So in seventeen seventeen, these four lodges got
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  Speaker 2: together formed a Grand Lodge to hold the annual feast
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  Speaker 2: and to recollect what might have been forgotten or to
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  Speaker 2: substitute suitable things for it in regards that ritual if
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  Speaker 2: it could not be remembered. So in a sense it
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  Speaker 2: was trying to recollect this tradition of a stone masonry. No,
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  Speaker 2: it didn't mean you know, how do we build a
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  Speaker 2: building or how do we make cement or anything like that.
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  Speaker 2: They were really focused on the ethical, moral, even more philosophical,
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  Speaker 2: spiritual side of freemasonry. So one thing that a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people don't know, including a lot of Freemasons, is
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  Speaker 2: that there is a proto history to freemasonry. So stone
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  Speaker 2: Mason's lodges were not just Stonemason's lodges, and the same
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  Speaker 2: could probably be said of any other guild. There was
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  Speaker 2: a ritualistic, initiatic side to it, with a mythology, and
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  Speaker 2: so we have certain texts which are now called the
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  Speaker 2: Old Charges, and these texts were handwritten by lodges and
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  Speaker 2: preserved and passed along, and they recorded a mythology of
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  Speaker 2: how stonemasonry and geometry came to Great Britain. And the
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  Speaker 2: earliest is the Regius Poem, and it dates from around
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  Speaker 2: fourteen hundred to fourteen fifty a d. So about it's
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  Speaker 2: about twice as old as the United States of America
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  Speaker 2: or a little more than that. So it's far back
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  Speaker 2: in time. And in that mythology and in subsequent mythologies
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  Speaker 2: which are a little bit different, recorded again by these
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  Speaker 2: stone Mason's lodges, it has a very fanciful and spectacular
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  Speaker 2: myth about geometry was taken from say, ancient Greece, ancient Egypt,
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  Speaker 2: and was taken to England during the time of Atholstan,
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  Speaker 2: and it's pretty complex. There's also a part where a
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  Speaker 2: blacksmith and his sister, a weaver try to preserve all
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  Speaker 2: of the arts and sciences for mankind because they think
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  Speaker 2: that God is going to try and destroy humanity as
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  Speaker 2: it did in the biblical flood, and they think, well,
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  Speaker 2: we should try and preserve all of these arts and sciences,
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  Speaker 2: but we don't know if he will do it by
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  Speaker 2: fire or flood. So they carved all of these arts
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  Speaker 2: and sciences on two pillars, one which would float on
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  Speaker 2: water and one which would not burn, so that these
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  Speaker 2: would be preserved. And then later on it's found by Hermes,
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  Speaker 2: and then finally we get to geometry comes, which obviously
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  Speaker 2: is one of those arts. Geometry is brought to England
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  Speaker 2: during the reign of atholl Stan, and this was preserved.
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  Speaker 2: And then around seventeen twenty three or a little bit before,
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  Speaker 2: James Anderson, who's really the first Masonic historian, collected a
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  Speaker 2: lot of these different myths or old chargers and then
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  Speaker 2: wrote up his constitutions of the Freemasons, creating another kind
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  Speaker 2: of myth from it, and you can't see in the
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  Speaker 2: Masonic ritual and the Masonic Lodge elements that would relate
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  Speaker 2: to these old charges. So the two pillars engraved by
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  Speaker 2: this metallurgist and his sister, a weaver, there are two lodges,
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  Speaker 2: are two pillars in the Masonic Lodge as well, although
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  Speaker 2: they're different. They're said to be made of brass, and
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  Speaker 2: the scrolls are kept inside these hollow brass pillars. But
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  Speaker 2: you can kind of see that well that relates to
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  Speaker 2: the metallurgy and to the preservation of knowledge, and over
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  Speaker 2: the centuries has changed, or maybe it's changed during the
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  Speaker 2: early eighteenth century, but this is what we find in
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  Speaker 2: the Masonic Lodge today. So there's a long pre or
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  Speaker 2: proto history to Freemasonry. What happens after seventeen seventeen eventually
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  Speaker 2: would up three degrees. Some people will argue whether there
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  Speaker 2: may have been three degrees already, because we know that
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  Speaker 2: during the seventeenth century or during the during the seventeenth century,
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  Speaker 2: there we have fragments of rituals for the entered apprentice
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  Speaker 2: or apprentice and for the fellow craft. So we know
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  Speaker 2: that there were initiation rituals for those two those two
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  Speaker 2: levels of members of Stonemason's Lodgers, but there were also masters,
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  Speaker 2: so some people argue, well there probably was one for
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  Speaker 2: masters as well, but anyway, so we end up with
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  Speaker 2: three three Masonic degrees, three rituals of initiation in what's
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  Speaker 2: called craft freemasonry today. So that's that's basically what people
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  Speaker 2: think of normally when they think of free masonry. When
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  Speaker 2: free Masonry spread to the continental Europe, especially in Europe,
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  Speaker 2: especially in France and Germany, then it began to be
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  Speaker 2: radically interpreted. And it's partly from an oration by chevallet
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  Speaker 2: Michael Andrew Ramsey, who was an educator pretty high up
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  Speaker 2: in France at that time, and he was Scottish, and
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  Speaker 2: he wrote this oration saying that no, it's not really
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  Speaker 2: from England, which the French hated, and it's not really
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  Speaker 2: from dirty working class Stonemasons. It's actually from crusader knights
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  Speaker 2: that were in Jerusalem, and then they traveled to Scotland
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  Speaker 2: pretty conveniently, and then from Scotland it's come into France.
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  Speaker 2: And of course French nobility much preferred to think that
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  Speaker 2: they were descended from the Crusader knights and the Scottish
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  Speaker 2: who they liked rather than English working class builders. So
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  Speaker 2: this called on, which is why even today you have
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  Speaker 2: the ancient and accepted Scottish right. That right is not
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  Speaker 2: from Scotland, it's from France, and a lot of rights
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  Speaker 2: were named Scottish. So even during the eighteenth century you
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  Speaker 2: had the rectified Scottish rite, which you think would be
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  Speaker 2: the Scottish righte rectified later on, but it actually predates
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  Speaker 2: the current ancient and accepted Scottish rime. And also suddenly
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  Speaker 2: you get this reinterpretation, and that means you get all
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  Speaker 2: of these new Masonic orders and rights being created. So
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  Speaker 2: you don't have three degrees. Maybe there's one with twenty
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  Speaker 2: or twenty five degrees as one and with some other
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  Speaker 2: number of degrees, and all of these different orders and
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  Speaker 2: rights are competing and they will say we've got the
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  Speaker 2: real secret. So one says we're from the Knights Templar,
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  Speaker 2: another one the Asiatic Brethren is translating Kabbalistic texts and yes,
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  Speaker 2: things like this, so it made there's some influence of
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  Speaker 2: Rosicrucianism and alchemy and the Egyptian right later on, which
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  Speaker 2: is not Egyptian. So yeah, you get this sort of chaotic,
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  Speaker 2: sort of very energetic mix of these peed in quote
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  Speaker 2: unquote Masonic rights.
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  Speaker 1: That's interesting, I know, I guess from my experience in
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  Speaker 1: a secret society. Can it like in freemasonry, could it
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  Speaker 1: be to where like certain like you're kind of saying
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  Speaker 1: it now and I'm wondering like a larger Maybe not
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  Speaker 1: as a whole, but some of the people running it
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  Speaker 1: do some of them think that whatever version of Freemasonry
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  Speaker 1: they got going on and there is better than the
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  Speaker 1: next temple or a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Of yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's a good question. So
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  Speaker 2: during the eighteenth century, yeah, so you would have had
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  Speaker 2: let's say, the Strict Observants, right, which came out of
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  Speaker 2: Germany and said we descend from the Knight's Templar. And
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  Speaker 2: I think it was in seventeen eighty two that was
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  Speaker 2: basically debunked and as a result that right collapsed. But
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  Speaker 2: certainly they were all competing. So that's the strict Observants
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  Speaker 2: would say we've got the real secrets, and then the
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  Speaker 2: Asiadic brevn would say they got the real secrets, and
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  Speaker 2: so yeah, you would get that. But yeah, so today
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  Speaker 2: it's just as complicated. So a lot of really all
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  Speaker 2: of these rights in the eighteenth century basically disappeared, apart
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  Speaker 2: from craft freemasonry, which is the foundation of everything. But
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  Speaker 2: during late eighteenth century and then during the night through
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  Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, the same thing happens. We tend to
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  Speaker 2: think of this as an eighteenth century phenomenon, but all
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  Speaker 2: through the nineteenth century you get new orders and rights
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  Speaker 2: being created. So even today there's the right of Memphis
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  Speaker 2: and Misery, and there are several versions of that, and
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  Speaker 2: it's considered to be irregular. So if you belong to
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  Speaker 2: a mainstream what we call regular Masonic large or regular
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  Speaker 2: Masonic jurisdiction, you cannot technically go and join the right
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  Speaker 2: of Memphis and misery. I'm sure it happens, but technically
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  Speaker 2: that's the case, and they would probably say that while
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  Speaker 2: they're much more mystical and they're much more esoteric, and
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  Speaker 2: they wouldn't want to join a regular a large anyway.
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  Speaker 2: So there is a little bit of that for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe I should say as well, even within regular Masonry
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  Speaker 2: there are different rights. So in America there are two
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  Speaker 2: main rights, the Scottish right and the York right, and
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  Speaker 2: the Scottish right is rightly or wrongly considered to be
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  Speaker 2: more esoteric, and the York Right is rightly or wrongly
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  Speaker 2: considered to be more Christian, maybe in a slightly unorthodox way.
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  Speaker 2: And then there are lots of different bodies and other
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  Speaker 2: rights as well, such as I'm just getting a recording error.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if that means anything. Oh yeah, saying
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: your device is out of storage.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: You don't worry about that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh okay, good. Yeah. So even in even in
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: even within regular freemasonry, there are these two rights, the
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  Speaker 2: Scottish Right and the York Right, and Scottish right has
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  Speaker 2: thirty three degrees and the York Right has either ten
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  Speaker 2: or thirteen degrees, depending on how you configure it, and
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  Speaker 2: the top degrees of both would seem to be equivalent.
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  Speaker 2: And then there are other smaller rights, such as the
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  Speaker 2: Knights Masons, which have three degrees, and the Cryptic Right,
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  Speaker 2: which is considerably part of the York Right. And then
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  Speaker 2: there are these invitational bodies that you can join, and
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  Speaker 2: then there are things beyond these rights that you can join.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, even there there might be a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of competition, or certainly some people feel that well I'm esoteric,
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  Speaker 2: so I joined the Scottish Rite, which is the most esoteric,
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  Speaker 2: so there is a little bit of that. And then yeah,
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  Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean inevitably that you will get a
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  Speaker 2: little bit of that, but the foundation of everything is
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  Speaker 2: craft freemasonry.
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  Speaker 1: That's great. I had no idea about any of this.
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  Speaker 3: I've go ahead, okay.
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  Speaker 4: So I know there's a division in Europe, mostly England
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  Speaker 4: and France Masons, and I know they're here in the US,
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  Speaker 4: but there's other branches of the Mason freemasonry in other countries.
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  Speaker 4: We spoke a while back on the Haitian Mason. When
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  Speaker 4: did the Masons branch out to these other locations and
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  Speaker 4: which right is it?
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  Speaker 2: Do you know?
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  Speaker 3: If it's similar to least two main ones.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult to say what rights they
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  Speaker 2: all are because they would come from different different have
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  Speaker 2: different origins, although they would all basically go back to
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  Speaker 2: Great Britain. But as far as I know, even countries
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  Speaker 2: that are very far away still still managed to get
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: freemasonry during the eighteenth century. I think there's almost no
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: exception to that. So even even Haiti goes back way
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  Speaker 2: into the eighteenth century, and I think mostly it's from France,
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  Speaker 2: but maybe not exclusively. Yeah, and it should be said
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  Speaker 2: about the school Scottish right and New York right. So
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  Speaker 2: they would typically be regarded as either above or additional
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  Speaker 2: to the craft freemasonry of entered apprentice, fellow craft and
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  Speaker 2: master mason. Some people would say, well, you know, that's
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  Speaker 2: the real secret. But technically in America, the official position
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  Speaker 2: is that these are just additional rights that or additional
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: degrees and rights that were created later in the eighteenth century,
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  Speaker 2: and they're really historical curiosities and you can take them
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  Speaker 2: if you want. But being a thirty third degree freemason
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  Speaker 2: doesn't make you higher or more more powerful than a
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: third degree mason. And I think I should clarify that
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  Speaker 2: because I know some people would be saying, well, that's
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: not right, he's got it wrong. But the way to
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: think about that is if the person with the most
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  Speaker 2: power would be able to kick out the one with
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  Speaker 2: the least power, obviously, right, So if a thirty third
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  Speaker 2: degree freemason had more power in freemasonry than a third
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  Speaker 2: degree mason, then he would be able to kick out
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  Speaker 2: the third degree mason, and not the other way around.
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  Speaker 2: But actually, so if if in Freemasonry, let's say you
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  Speaker 2: you you do something in your Craft large of the
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  Speaker 2: first three degrees, and they decide to get rid of
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  Speaker 2: you that you you have you've done something Unmasonic that
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: can't be forgiven, and you're thrown out, or you just
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  Speaker 2: don't pay your annual dues for years on end and
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  Speaker 2: they kick you out. You cannot go to any you
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  Speaker 2: cannot attend the Scottish Rite, you can't enjoin any sort
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  Speaker 2: of thirty third degree body. You're kicked out of all
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  Speaker 2: of them at the same time. Whereas if you were
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  Speaker 2: in the Scottish Rite and they kicked you out of that,
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  Speaker 2: or they decided, you know, you haven't paid your annual
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  Speaker 2: dues for ten years, we're going to kick you out.
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  Speaker 2: You would still be a member of a Craft large,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: You would still be able to go. There would be
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: no problem there. So yeah, so that really I think
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  Speaker 2: that illustrates why these other rights are not more powerful
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  Speaker 2: and more secret written you know, they got all the
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: power and all this kind of thing. It's not really
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  Speaker 2: not like that in America. They're really considered to be
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  Speaker 2: historical curiosities. Now, I'm sure you could meet Freemasons who
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: would say no, they are they give you the secret
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: cabalistic powers or whatever it is. I'm sure there are
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: freemasons like that, but they would be speaking their own
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: opinion and not reflective of any of the opinions of
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: any Grand Lodge, which I guess I'm not, but certainly
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: my opinions coincide there. But in France, certainly where the Scottish,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the original Scottish rite degrees were developed in France, they
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: would say that, oh, yes, they're much more elevated and
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: you you must go through those degrees. But that's probably
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: it's probably a sort of nationalistic aspect to it. They
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: know that they came from France and they have a
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: French origin, so they want to make it more important
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: than the English ones, of course, because there's always been
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: that hostility between us, because they were always wrong.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: So I did have Judith, is there anything you wanted
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: to follow up with that before I asked him.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: No, No, there.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Was one question. Actually there's a few already that popped
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: into my head, but one that I want to go
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: back on that was kind of right at the beginning
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: when you first started talking, and it's just something I'm
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: wondering about if maybe the Masons had this idea prior
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: to I guess other people started thinking about it more publicly.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I had come across something, and this has been a
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: few years ago where people were these people on religious
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: studies would have academics that were questioning if Jesus might
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: have actually been a Stonemason instead of a carpenter because
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: of his situation where he lived and all this, and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that it made more sense that he was building with
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: brokenstead of wood. Did the Masons ever think of anything
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: that day, look at him as possibly actually a Stonemason
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: or anything like? Is there any correlation with that?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: It's certainly not officially, but I think that maybe there's
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a Greek that covers I think that might be as well.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you. I'm sure what it would be.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, not officially, there will be no Masonic
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: position on that. And again I'm sure you can find
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: some historic Masonic esoteric thinkers who I would have said
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: that it was back to Jesus. But no, we don't
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: have any position on that whatsoever.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm just wondering if it was like maybe
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: like an overall thought inside you know, recently.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I think really the focus on building
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: really is that it came out of the Stonemason's trade,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: and of course a lot of the Masonic symbols which
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: are technically actually emblems, not symbols, but a lot of
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the emblems or symbols relate to or derived from building
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and architecture. Of course.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: All right, thank you, yeah, thank you for entertaining that one.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Another one that I did have, and only because we've
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: had We've talked about it a few times on this show.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: It was more or less a while ago. It was
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: kind of covered a little bit more from the conspiracy angle.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Just keep it real, but did the conspiracy did the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Society of Cincinnatis have anything to do with like kind
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: of like freemasonry.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: In the beginning, honestly, I don't know what that is.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right, you know, okay, yeah, what is it?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: It was kind of like I think it might have
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: been prior to freemasonry, and George Washington was actually in it, okay,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: And like a lot of French Masons came over here prior.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It seemed like they were a lot of it was
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of mixings. A lot of them are freemasons.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so yeah, I couldn't comment on that particular organization.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so freemasonies, it probably goes back further, unless
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: unless it goes back to the beginning of the the
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: eighteenth century. But yeah, I mean the thing about Freemasons
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: coming over and yeah, that sounds to us today, that
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: sounds quite extraordinary, right that, well, you know, Freemasons are
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: traveling from one country to the next or whatever. But
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: it was such a different world that we look back
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: on the eighteenth century like it's today.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: You know, we.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Don't want to join societies. Most people don't. And actually,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: even up to about nineteen seventy five, most Americans still
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: belong to at least one fraternity or social club often too.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: And then during the during mid nineteen seventies, those organization
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: has just created literally But this was perfectly normal before that,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and it would have been normal really, I'm sure, going
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: back thousands of years. Imagine a world no TV, no radio,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: no internet, no nothing, no cars. What are you going
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: to do to make your owner entertainment? Singing, going to taverns,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: going to plays, and then you're going to join fraternities
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: and clubs if you can. So that was the world
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: of freemasonry in the world of the eighteenth century and
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: nineteenth century. So yeah, so you know, almost everyone at
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: one point. You know, if we were if the three
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: of us were to go back to the eighteenth century,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: you know, two of us would be Freemasons and Judith
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: would be Judith would be in a sorority the ancient
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: order of Mopsis, which was a Catholic equivalent for Freemasons,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: you know, the equivalent of Freemasonry for Catholics. So you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: we would all be in something. We'd probably be in
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: two or three.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: When did the Eastern Star come out?
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I believe that's around the mid nineteenth century, maybe maybe
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: a little later. Yeah, and again that seems to be
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: based on some French French rituals as well.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Nice actually have somebody that I forgot to have on
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: that's in the Eastern start on.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: I actually had a question about the history of the
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: Freemason here with interactions with Native Americans, because they we've
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: we've spoken to a few people who've done a lot
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: of research on the Native Americans and it seems like
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of symbolisms that go hand in hand
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: with the Freemasons. How much contact within uh your history,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: do do you see that when they came over.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm not I'm not especially well up on
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Native Americans and Freemasons, so I couldn't go into death.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: But certainly though there were Native Americans who became Freemasons.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: That's certainly the case. And h and there were cowboys
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: who are Freemasons as well, So yeah.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a good point. And not trying to
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and like you know, when I say this, I'm not
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: coming across and like knocking the Freemasons like, oh you
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: stole this, because I'm just gonna keep it. Well, you
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: look at history, everybody's borrowing stuff from somebody. I mean,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: just keep it real. But there is a lot of
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: symbolism that I have noticed that comes from certain Native
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: American tribes that really I think, I mean, I think
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: that makes it makes it more interesting actually, But yeah,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: something that I've sor I mean, like with all were
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: they into something like were these tribes back then? Were
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: they illuminated in their own way? And did the Freemasons
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: notice that?
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Probably? I mean there's always there's always a risk of
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: comparative symbolism or although sometimes sometimes there are definite similarities
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: and parallels, but sometimes not so much. But but yeah,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: of course, so I think every culture developed some sort
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: of mystery. Almost every culture developed some kind of mystery,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: tradition and symbols. Yeah, and there's almost always going to
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: be parallels, especially if we're in contact with nature in
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: some way, which pretty much all human beings were before
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the modern age. You know, you're you're going to make
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: this on a symbol or the moon or order or
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. These things are going to keep propping up,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: not always in the same way, it should be said,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: not always with the same significance. I was I was
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: part of a Masonic sort of think tank group. I
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: only lasted one session because I tend to upset people.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I tend not to get invited back. But and we were,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: and the plan was, or the or the point of
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: it was that we would develop some sort of curriculum
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: for freemasons to learn esotericism. And one one of the
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: participants said that, well, symbols have the same meaning across
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the globe, and they're always every one symbol will have
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: the same meaning everywhere. And he and to illustrate this,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: he said, a sun is a sun, is a sun
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: is a sun, which is true. The sun is always
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the sun that's a good point. But what it means
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: in different parts of the world it's totally different. Young
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: would tell us that the sun is always male and
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: it's this sort of fiery god. But yeah, that's true.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: In if you are in the Middle East, the sun
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: is a fiery war god. But if you are in
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the North of Europe where it's dark for months at
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: a time and you have twenty two hours of darkness
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: a day in some for some periods, yeah, the sun
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: is not a fiery war god. It's a benevolent goddess,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: which is why in Anglo Saxon culture that the sun
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: is a goddess. So, and if you look at how
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it's portrayed in the Old English room poem, it's this
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: benevolent giving bright, bright blessings to everyone because it's cold.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it depends what you are. So, no symbols
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: are the same. Same with dragons. You know, some parts
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: of the world the dragon is malevolent. In some parts
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: of it's benevolent completely.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: You're going actually with the dragon.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's associated with the sky or heavens,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: as in China, and sometimes it's associated with the earth
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: or the underworld, as in Norse. Culture, So there's no
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: there's no you know, cookie cutter, this symbol always means this.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: But that said, if you are in nature, a lot
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of the things around you're going to start thinking about
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: as symbols and they are going to have a similar
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: meaning very often because we're always going to be relating
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: to these things in a similar way, usually depending on
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: climate and things like that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Another question I wanted to ask you, and the reason is,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I guess maybe my own experience and knowing other people
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: on other orders, Like I had two people from the
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Temple is set On and one of them was Toby Chappelle,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and he pretty much like had in order that he.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: The the order of the Traps.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like listening to him and then listening to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Stephen Flowers to a kind of like the thing that
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: he's into in that it sounds like those inner orders,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: because those are in orders seem to be focused a
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: little bit more on like maybe a specific idea or
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: an area of study, something along those lines. Right. Yeah,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: And when I was in the Oto, by the fourth degree,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I think you're already considered a perfect magician or something
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: close toward it like that, and then you basically have
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: to get asked Shulva tapped or whatever you want to
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: call it, to go up further, what is the reasoning
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: for that? I think you had mentioned that you would
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: have to be like selected. I mean, I guess as
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: much as you could get into what would be the
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: reasoning to being select? What would make somebody worthy of
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: being selected to go into other orders?
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so in Freemasonry you actually have to ask to join.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: It's actually until about twenty years ago, it was actually
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: prohibited for Freemasons to ask someone to join Freemasonry, which
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: is another thing that people get up the wrong way around,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: and it was it was prohibited because as free Masons
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: and Grand Lodges did not regard Freemasonry as a kind
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: of proselytizing religion. They wanted they wanted people to join
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: who wanted to join, not who were pressured into joining
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: or promise something or anything like that. So so technically
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: you have to you have to ask to join. I
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: certainly asked. I I went into the Grand Lodge building
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: on my own initiative and said I want to become
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: a member, and how do I do it? And they
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: organized me to meet people and learn more and this
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: kind of thing. But so Yeah, when you are in freemasonry,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: there are some what are called invitational bodies. You can
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: you can apply to join the Scottish Write and you
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: might be accepted. You're going to apply to join the
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: York Right or the Night Masons, maybe some other bodies.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: But there are a few quote unquote invitational bodies. And
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: what one of those is the Society as for as
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: a Cruciana in America. That's the Society for As a
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Cruciana in Civitatopus feder Artist, which is a Masonic rosicrusion order,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: let's say, or more technically a Rosicrucion order that only
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: accepts Freemasons as members. And so I was a member
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: of the Society's rose Crusiana for several years, I think
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: probably around four years, and I was very active in it.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And so why why would somebody be invited to join that?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And it was at the time quite quite secretive, that
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: was two thousand and three, And the reason is they
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: they wanted to have brothers in the in that society,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: they would be called a frata then who were focused
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: on the esoteric and on say alchemy, hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, maybe
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: other esoteric traditions, but those would be the most typical ones.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: So they were looking and they were also looking to
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to have have brothers join who were more active. So
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I was asked partly because I was actively researching esotericism
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and the history of the esoteric and the history of Freemasonry,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: but it was also very active giving talks as well,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: which was something at that time that really wasn't happening.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: There was no there was no Masonic education. That has changed,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: but at the time no one was doing that. So,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: for example, when I joined the Masonic lodge, we were
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: having talks on this this this sort of fulfills the
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: the some people's notion of it as wearing aprons and
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: all this sort of having dinner and nothing else. But
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: when I joined, we had a talk on men's health.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: We had a talk on tax law right at the
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: end of the year, at the end of the taxiar
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: and then we had a talk on by a fireman
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: on fire safe and the other two talks were given
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: by members of the lodge. But we had a fireman company.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I know, I thought, you know, it's it's not terrible,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and it's sort of interesting, but not really Why I
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: joined a lodge so I gave a talk on Stonemasonry,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: ruins and Freemasonry, and then later on I started giving
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: other talks publicly. I gave three talks in the Chancellor
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Robert R. Livingston Library and Museum of the Grand Lodge
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: of New York to give it's full title, and I
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: gave three talks there on German philosophy and Freemasonry, which
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: were open to the public, and I gave one or
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: two other public talks there as well, And literally no
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: one was doing that at the time. So I was
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: invited because a my interests were aligned with their interests
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: in terms of research, and I was being very active
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: in writing papers, writing. I was writing a book by
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: that point and giving talks which no one else was doing,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: which doesn't which doesn't mean you couldn't get into the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: societies as a Cruciana if you weren't doing those things.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I was initiated the same night as another young, very
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: young brother as well, a very nice guy. He was
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: very interested in the esoteric. I don't think he was
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: giving lectures or necessarily riding or anything, but but he
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: was seen to be artistic and which was a good thing.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: All of the ritual materials were handmade by a member
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: of the lodge, so so that could be helpful. And
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: and his interests were very much as Crucianism, alchemy, all
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: the things that they were focused on. So that so
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: that that's so, that really is why there are other
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: invitational bodies. I'm not entirely sure or all of their
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: their focuses, but but that's why. That's why technically as
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: a society as Christiana exists.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Nice, thank you, Yeah, And.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: It should be said that they we were told don't tell,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: don't tell other Freemasons that you are a member, because
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: not because we're looking down on anyone, but because we
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: want to keep this focused on the esoteric. We don't
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: want this becoming just a kind of another another thing
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: for free Masons to join, because there's a there is
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: a there is an element of a contingent of Freemasons
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: who want to join everything because they want to kind
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: of collect the whole set, which I mean, it's fine,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: it's not really what it's about, but but they wanted
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: to keep that, you know, the person who just wanted
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: to join, they wanted to keep out.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure Judith may even remember from her experience.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: I know from my experience. There was people I met
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: that was like in everything, and I'm just like Jesus Christ.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: You just want to to say you're a part of everything.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, which probably approves it's not working.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Heard I've heard someone else say something very close to that.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: With that whole idea, something must not be going right
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: if you got to join all of them.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: That's right totally. Yeah.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, Judith, was there anything you wanted to ask before
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I keep going?
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: I was going to ask because it sounds like there's
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: two different sets, two different sides to the masonry, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: it seems like the conspiracies and the rumors are basically
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: unfounded because I'm wondering, is the esoteric part, I know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: the attachment to the night template, but is the esoteric
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: part throughout the entire history or is that something that
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: just started recently.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends how you define esoteric. So with the
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: old charges, certainly there's a lot which is a mythology.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: You could regard that as esoteric, And as I say,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Hermes is mentioned in there, and lots of interesting and
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: curious stuff. Maybe it's not rods of Crucianism or alchemy,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: but it's in certain certain sense esoteric, at least as
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: we would think of esotericism. I think, and again, if
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: you again with the all of these sort of strange
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: competing Masonic rights forming in France and Germany, the Strict Observants,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: the Asiatic Brethren and other similar groups, they were all
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: teaching alchemy or Kabbalah, or claiming to be from the
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Knights Templar or whatever it was. So there was a
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: real explosion in the sense of esoteric quote unquote Masonic
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: rights during the eighteenth century front, let's say, eighteen thirty
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: forty around there, and then even in England, which was
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: less less keen on the idea of creating new Masonic rights,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: not least of all because they were the founders of
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: the original craft freemasonry, so why keep inventing more? But
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: even there where they were less inclined to create new
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: rights and orders. If you look at, for examp, the
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: as Quarter Coronadom, the AQC, or the Transactions of the AQC,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: which is a Masonic research journal that began in the
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: eighteen nineties. If you look at the earliest transactions, which
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: came out every year, but before the before the twentieth century,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: the first ten years let's say they were, they would
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: publish article of published papers on Rosicrucianism, the drus, Hinduism, Buddhism, alchemy.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: There's a review of the Tarot of the Bohemians. So
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: things that we would think are really obscure were already
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: being researched and discussed in England during the late nineteenth
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: century in a serious way. This is supposed to be
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: a very serious a serious research done or held to
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: academic standards. And you know, okay, today tarot is all
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the rage and you can buy it in Walmart literally,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: But thirty years ago it was pretty obscure. Fifty years
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: ago or seventy years ago, it was extraordinarily oxcure, and
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: nineteenth century almost no one would have heard of the tarots.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: But there it is in a Masonic journal, taken seriously.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: So there is a long history of Freemasonry or Freemasons
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: being interested in the esoteric. And I'm sure it's because
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: the more sort of thinking Freemasons, or the more thinking
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: individuals who join Freemasonry and stay tend tend to be
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: interested in things like mysteries. I mean, today they're probably
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: interested more in let's say Jungian psychology or some form
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: of mythology or hermeticism or Rosa Crucianism, this kind of thing.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: You find this a lot in freemasonry among Freemasons. Anyway,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I should say today.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Awesome, anything else.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Now, okay, So I'll just tell you a little anecdote
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: related to this. So I when I gave my first
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: talk on ruins and Stonemasonry and Mason's marks and freemasonry,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: which would have been two thousand and two, around the
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: middle of two thousand and two, my closest friend was
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: actually a member of the lodge at that time, and
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: he said to me, you know, all of the brothers
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: are going to be really supportive because we haven't had
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: a talk about freemasonry in the large for years. So
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: they're all going to be really thrilled, and they're going
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to be very supportive of you. But but you know,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: there's that I'm not going to say his name, but
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: there's that old guy who comes and he makes dad
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: jokes throughout the throughout the meetings, and you know, don't
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: don't be offended if he just falls asleep. And so
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I gave my talk, and afterwards, that old guy, that
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: old brother came up to me and he said to me,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: that was great and we need more of that. And
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: he'd been going to lodge for, you know, fifty years.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, we write these these old guys
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: off often and you think, oh, well, they just come
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: when they make dad jokes. But you know, why are
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: they going to a lodge for fifty years? Because even
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: though they can't articulate it, they're actually interested in these things.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: They're actually interested in freemasonry and in mysteries. Yeah, I get.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: I gave a talk once that are really a large
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: in New Jersey that was far, really far out as
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: it was just populated by fishermen and cops basically, and
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: I know at one point I was talking about Tibetan
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Buddhism and the symbolism of death and they were nodding,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: and I thought, this is really wild thought. I never
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: thought in a room full of fishermen and cops, you know,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: they'd be nodding at all this like weird esoteric stuff,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: but it is. It's the way you talk about it,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: and a lot of Freemasons when they talk about it,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: they kind of make the mistake of trying to beat
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: it into people like it's a religious faith that they
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: need to the need to believe in. So, yeah, that's cool.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: One question I did have, Uh, you know, Freemason often
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: connects itself symbolically to Solomon's Temple historically, what is going
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: on with that templement? Could you give us a little
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: bit better behind that?
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I couldn't really tell you much about Solomon's Temple,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: to be honest. But but Solomon's Temple was a big,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: big deal, not too not too long before the founding
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: of Freemasonry, So there was there was I think about
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: three decades or four decades ago. It's been a long,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: a long while since I looked to this, but a
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: few decades before the founding of a Grand Lodge, there
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: was actually a model, a very large model of Solomon's
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Temple built, and it toured across the whole of Europe.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: We would not find a model of a building, even
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: an ancient building, very exciting. But in a world without
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: TV or movies or internet or smartphones, this is a
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: miraculous thing. It's a marvel, you know. So it was
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: a big deal, and that might have had something to
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: do with it. Architecture, you did have this this idea
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: of the memory palace where you would mentally walk through
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: a building and in a sense in bed mentally embed
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: ideas in each thing. So maybe you walk through you
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: walk through a room and you pass a painting of
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: a king, and then you think about it, think of
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: something that you're going to say about the king in
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: a lecture, and then you keep walking that. You walk
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: past a door and then you think about something you're
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: going to say. That you have connected to this door
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: in some way, so as you keep mentally imagining yourself
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: walking through it, that you've associated all of these things
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: or certain ideas that you are going to speak about
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: all that you just need to remember. So architecture has
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: all of these kind of connotations in a way, so educational, religious, spiritual. Yeah,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: So considering the Freemasonry came out of the Stonemasons where
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: they are looking at these kind of buildings as proof
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: of how important Stonemasonry is. It was and biblical the time,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Christian at the time most of them, so it was
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: important and Jews were initiated fairly early on, I think
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: around by seventeen twenty eight, I'm not mistaken. So yeah, yeah,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: But as for the actual temper, I couldn't really tell
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: you that you that much historically, you know, Freemasonry doesn't
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: go back to the Solomon's Temple is purely symbolic.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: That was still interesting what you said about the Memory Palace.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was a real technique or in the Renaissance,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: and even in Freemasonry today. There are people who are
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: interested in it, and there was an issue of Fraternal
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Review created about it. And Martin Folks in England, who's
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the publisher of Lewis Masonic Press. I think he's written
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: a book about it and often lectures about it as well.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So it's still a thing in this kind of world
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: a little bit, you know.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I find it like interesting that you're talking about that
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: the Memory Palace, and I have covered some old spots
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: would be kind of considered like sacred architecture and stuff,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: and they'll have something kind of along that. I that idea,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: and then depending on how the place is built, And
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if maybe the Stonemasons understood this. Depending if
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: a pillow was concaved had like this slight, you know,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: decorations going in or coming out, it would actually change
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the reverberation where if you even chanted, that would have
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: a difference. And if you were speaking loud like whatever.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: These people were definitely building probably things, knowing very specifics
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: actually about sound, which is weird back then. But so
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm wondering if they even understood that
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: with the architecture, if they're using like kind of things
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: visuals to tap into like memory stuff, I wonder if
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: they even understood like archaeoacoustics. I think they call it now.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that I couldn't tell you. But suddenly the triumph
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: of stone masonry in Britain is going to be the
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: cathedrals and and in Europe, which when you look at
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: some of the cathedrals and some of the churches, they
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: are quite quite odd. A lot of the things that
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: are on the gargoyles and even some of them have
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: almost pornographic imagery of naked mad or naked button on it,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: and this kind of thing, and mixing with religious imagery
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: as well obviously. And of course even even the shape
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: of a church is usually built in the same shape
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: of a cross, and every everything is symbolic, even even
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: the height of the charge and everything. So it was,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: it all had some meaning, but some of it's very strange,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you as much as you can answer. You know,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask about like kind of like
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: the High Room a bif all that that's yeah.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the hieramic legend of freemasonry.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Is there anything you could talk about on that.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, it's just part of it's it's the Masonic mythology,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: I would say, and it's it's integral to the craft
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Masonic degrees. Yeah yeah, and there's a focus on mortality
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: in a way as part of that. But yeah, I've
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: tried not to give too much away. Not not that
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: it's not that anything would happen to me, but when
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I was interested in freemasonry, I got ahold of the
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Royal arch Degree of Freemasonry, which comes after the three degrees,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: and read it, and later when I took the Royal
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: arch Degree, I was completely disappointed because they didn't have
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: the lecture in it that I had. So it's not
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: always good. It's not usually good to have all of
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: the information up front. It's supposed to be a mystery
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: that you encounter. Some things I must leave a mystery.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: What is the relationship between freemasonry and rosicrucion current.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a it's a complicated relationship. And you
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: can go back into the seventeen century where there's a
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: newspaper article I guess you would call it talking about
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: how the Freemasons and the Rosicrucians are having dinner together.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I think it was I think the newspaper is the
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Paul Robin's Intelligence or something like that, and it's from
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: the seventeenth century. And it's important in that it mentions
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: the mason's word. So in free Masonry there is this
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: idea of the word which plays out in different ways.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: But so we do know from this article that there
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: was such a thing as the mason's word, going back
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: into significantly into the seventeenth century. That said, a lot
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: of the more esoteric Freemasons get a little overly excited
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: about it and say this is proof that Freemasonry is
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: actually Rosicrucionism. But the article itself is a spoof and
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: it talks about how free Masons and Rosicrusions are going
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: to dine together and they're going to Phoenix and haunches
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: of Unicorn, and I'm pretty sure that's not true. So
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: you know, you have to understand these things in context,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: where some people don't want to do. But going moving
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: forward in time. So yes, then then rosa. So when
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: free masonry spreads across Europe, in a sense, it becomes
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: a vehicle for everything else. How do you how do
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: you practice alchemy? How do you become an alchemist? Or
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: how do you pass on the secrets of alchemy before freemasonryders?
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe if you're if you're really practicing alchemy, maybe
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: you have one student, maybe you don't even have that,
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: or maybe you're learning from whatever books you can get
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: hold of, and they're probably extremely expensive if you can afford.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Only the wealthiest people are going to be able to
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: get out of it. Or hemeticism or Rosicrutionism. What even
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: is Rosicrucianism before the eighteenth century, no one really knows.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: So it seems to be some Lutheran German Christians who
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: are interested in hermetic symbolism as well. But or at
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: least if you if you read the manifestos, that's what
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: the impression one gets. Not everyone wants to think of
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: it like that, but that is it. Hence they're criticizing
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: other religions and talking about Kabbala that they've discovered being
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: defiled by this other religion. So you know, they're not
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: this sort of happy clappy all religions are one that
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: we see today in Rosicrucianism. But you know, how do
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: these things get passed on or how do you learn
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: about them? Well, luckily Freemasonry comes along, and you can
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: strip out all of the Masonic material and just take
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: the format of the ritual and put in alchemy or
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: put in kabbala, or put in Rosicrucianism, or put in
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Catholicism or whatever you want. And so you get all
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: of these rights with these competing competing mythologies and symbolism.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: And one of the orders at that time was the
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: Golden rosy Cross or Golden Resocrusions as it's sometimes called,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: and it was not a Masonic order technically speaking, but
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: it would only initiate free Masons of the fourth degree,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and so everyone in that order was a Freemason. And
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: the Golden Rescrusions claimed to be practicing alchemy, to have
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: the elixir of life, and even to be able to
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: conjure up ghosts or spirits with a ghost raising machine.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: So it's a little bit outside of Freemasonry as we
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: think of it, but they were all practicing Freemasons and
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: again gold and rosy cross. It's some kind of Rosicrucion order.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: And this was this was certainly popular in Germany and
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: maybe a little bit in France. So again, you know,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: they took the Masonic, the Masonic format and put in
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: all of this other stuff, all of these other Rosicrucian mysteries.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: And again during during the eighteenth century. A little later
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: you get the rose quad degree of Freemasonry, which seems
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: to have been created or at least influenced by a
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Freemason called Willemots who was in Lyon and was a practicing,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: practicing mesmerist, practicing healing and a kind of Martinist as well,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: or a member of the elect co En, which was
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: again a Masonic order that was practicing Catholic magic, so
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: fighting demons, fighting off the the the evils that had
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: come into the world with sort of French revolutionary ideas,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: and they were combating that using magic. And he was
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: a member of the elect co En and seems to
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: be the person behind the rose Choir degree, which when
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: you look at the degrees, because they're often passed on orally,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: are not always the same. So a Masonic ritual in
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: America is going to be a little different to the
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: same ritual in England or in France, and sometimes they
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: vary from the state to state as well a little
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: bit because they've been transmitted orally and things have crept
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: in or things have fallen out, and maybe things have
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: been intentionally removed a little bit later on as well.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: But if you look at various forms of the rose
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Choir degree, and I've read quite a few rose Quair rituals,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: it's a fusion of Alchemy, Rosicrucianism, with the rose cross
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: of Rosicrucianism being its main symbol, and a fusion of
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Catholicism as well. So and the rose Quair degree became
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: the most popular of these sort of higher Masonic degrees
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: that were created in France or Germany during the eighteenth century,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: and most Masonic rights, if not all Masonic rights at
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: one point had a rose Choir degree. So today it's
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: in the Scottish rite of freemasonry. And then the opposite
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: of the other main right in American freemasonry is the
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: York right, and the top the top degrees of the
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: York right are of the Order of the Temple, which
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: is what also called the Knights Templar Masons. This does
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: not derive from the medieval knights Templar. It derives from
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: this idea that we were connected to the Templar, and
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: it was created during the mid maybe slightly later, the
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: mid eighteenth century. But in that in the Order of
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: the Temple or the Knights Templar Masons, they also used
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: to have a rose Choir degree, and then they had
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: to come to an agreement with the Scottish Right not
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: not to confer that degree. And you and you find
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: it in other rights like the Write of Memphis and
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: miss Ray and which we consider irregular, but they still
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: have it. So really the most popular of these additional higher,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: more esoteric, allegedly degrees was was the rose quir, and
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: maybe still is the rose Quar. And then and then
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: of course with during the nineteenth century you get the
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: founding late nineteenth century you get the founding of the
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Society's Rosa Crusiana, which again is a Rosicrucian order, like
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: the Gold and Rosy Cross, a Rosicrucian order that will
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: only accept Freemasons as members.
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: A question of the rose because I always saw the
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: Rosicrucians and the Masons separately, find did that come out
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: of masonry or was it pre existing and then Levy
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: joined together.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Well, it seems it seems to be that then they
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: may have been. I'm sure there were individuals and who
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: are very interested in alchemy and Rosicrucianism prior to free
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: masonry emerging, but free masonry enabled people with those interests
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: to put them into a ritual context. So today, if
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: you join in occult order or even Wicker, there are
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: several degrees that you have to go through, right, so
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: you became a fourth degree in the OTO. But if
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: you go back, well, let me say so, I've heard
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: one academic say that, well, freemasonry is a form of
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: a form of ceremonial magic, because there are just too
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: many similarities to ceremonial magic for it to be a coincidence.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: And so one piece of evidence would be, well, freemasonry
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: has degrees. Ceremonial magic orders have degrees, They have an
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: opening closing, so do ceremonial magic orders. They have symbols
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: and all to all these kinds of things. But the
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: reason they are similar is because this ceremonial magic and
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: even Wicker is either directly or indirectly derived from Freemasonry.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: It's not that they all popped up together, these secret
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: occult traditions, they were influenced by Freemasonry. None of this
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: existed prior to the eighteenth century. You know, John d
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: didn't have a degree. He wasn't initiated into some pseudo
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: audo temporary orientus order and it was a fourth degree
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: or fifth degree or one hundredth degree a gripper. He
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: didn't have a degree. No one had degrees before Freemasonry
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: came along with these degrees, and then everyone had a degree.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: And if you wanted to learn how if you wanted
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: to be a practicing if you wanted to evoke spirits,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: now you had to join the Golden Rosy Cross and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: become a certain degree. And all of that's from Freemasonry,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: at least the structure same if you now if you
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: join a Rosa Christian order l B degrees, which is
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: just like the Golden Rosy Cross, which modeled itself on
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: Freemasonry and was made up of Freemasons. It's just like
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: the societies Rosa Crusiana founded by Freemasons only for Freemasons.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: And then the members of the societies where Crusiana founded
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: the Hamitic order of the Golden Dawn, which you might
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: notice that the Golden Dawn with its inner order of
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: the Rose and ruby cross sounds an awful lot like
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: the Golden Rosy cross.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Off Rosie cross. Yeah, you have a bunch that's rights cruz,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: right is it? Even their cipher I think they are
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: on cipher is like kind of like done in a
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: circle to represent the rose.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, well, certainly, the certainly the certainly their
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: emblem is right, so that kind of rows with lots
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: and lots of petals. I think our Hebrew letters in
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: it as well. But yeah, so you know, even the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Golden Dawn today we look at that as a ceremonial
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: magical order, which is true, but it would fit right
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: in with eighteenth century Freemasonry, and really it's really part
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: of that lineage, and even Wicker is ultimately part of
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: that lineage in a way, although the content might be
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: very different, it's still this lineage of let's empty out
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: the Masonic stuff and put something else in it.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: She said, I even thought that about the Oto.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Well, the Oto was founded as an Academia Masonica, and
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: all of the rituals come really come from the Scottish
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Rite and the Right of Memphis and Miss Rayem and
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Crowley were and that was literally the intention. So in
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: Germany they didn't have the Scottish write as we have
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: it now. It was a different system. I think they
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: had seven degrees and at the beginning of the twentieth century.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Now they have the Scottish Rite, and I think that's
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: an American influence post World War Two. But at the
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: time they was not like American Freemasonry and had they
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: had their own right and that was it, or maybe
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: a few different rights in different parts of Germany. But
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Theodore Royce and Carl Kahner said, well, we're going to
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: found this Masonica Academia where you can take these other
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Masonic degrees of the Scottish Right or the Right of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Memphis and Miss Raym And that's really what it was.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: And then even even when Crowley took it over, he
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: he would accept people to membership who had taken certain
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: certain certain degrees in the Right of Memphis and Miss
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Raem or Scottish Right. He would bump you up. You
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: didn't have to begin at the at the lowest level,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: because he would say that, well, this is your your
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Masonic degree is equivalent to our Masonic OTO degree. And
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: in his confessions he even even describes the OTO as freemasonry,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: which technically is correct, but we wouldn't accept it as
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: a regular, irregular freemasonry. But all of the rituals in
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: it you can pretty much you can find in the
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: Scottish Right today. And even at one point when Crowley
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: came to America, he tried to get Freemasons in Detroit
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: to adopt the OTO as a higher Masonic right, so
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: that you would you would go through the Scottish Right
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: and then you would join the OTO, and that would
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: be the highest highest Masonic right. And one might say that, well,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: that would be a problem if there were female members,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: because they would say that that you're doing something non Masonic.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: But I kind of wonder if Crowley would have maybe
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: would have got rid of the female members, if he'd
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: got thousands and thousands of Freemasons joining. I slightly suspect
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: that might have happened, but it was definitely he was
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: definitely pushing to get that to be the case, but
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: ultimately it was rejected, and even even he changed the
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: the early the foundational degrees of Freemasonry had the higher
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: make legend in it, of the degrees of the Oto.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: It had the Masonic hierarmic legend in it. And today
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: if you speak to a oh, if you speak to
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: many OTO members, they would say, yeah, but we got
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: rid of all the Masonic stuff because we don't like Freemasonry.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: But actually the reason they got rid of it, or
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Crowley got rid of it, is because the the Freemasons
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: in Detroit said, well, we can't accept this as a
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: higher Masonic right because this would we would violate our
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: obligation because you have this other you have this Masonic
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: stuff in there that we you you can't have in there.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: That's just the boaden. And so he replaced it with
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: this Sufi Sufi mythology instead. That's why he wasn't trying
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: to make it under sonic. He was trying to actually
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: make it palatable to the Freemason so it could be
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: a higher Masonic right.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I just always felt that there was maybe a
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: Rosicrucian undercurrent in the Golden Down and the OTO.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean that Sutainly is in the Golden Dorm
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: with this inner order, and the Oto has U has
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: the rose quad degree as well. Like all Masonic writes.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I know U in his uh. I think he's a
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: vision in the voice. Somebody that used to be on
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: the show went to the library where they had that
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: book and they, you know, they scanned I think the
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: whole thing with like his his notes and everything, and
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: we were looking at it, and there's like multiple times
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: where you see him doing like the Jamatria to like
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: throw rose into his sentence. And I've and I've even
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: said myself, I don't think it's always the girl. I
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: do think it might be a nod to something else,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: especially if he's figuring out Jamatria. It's not obviously the
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: reason you probably think it is. So I've often wondered
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: if that was just a nod to Rosicrucianism. Sometimes that's
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: just my idea. But you mentioned it earlier earlier, Sorry,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: go ahead, you go ahead, no no, no good. You
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, and I was wondering about this, especially with
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: the way I think you were kind of saying freemasonry
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: kind of just became a good vehicle for Rosicrucianism. You
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that I think you covered freemasonry in Germany.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Now Germany, I think it was huge with Rosicrucian Apologists
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: at least, right exactly. So do you think you think
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: in Germany you think maybe freemasonry over there might have
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: been influenced a little bit more heavier. Those lodgers are
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: more of a vehicle, or temples maybe were more of
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: a vehicle for that.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so freemasonry in Germany had lots of different rights.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: You would always have to go through the three degrees,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: but yeah, you get things like the Golden Rosy Cross.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: So in that sense, yeah, it would be Yeah, it
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: was more active with Rosicrucianism, whatever Rosicristianism might be, of course,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: because people interpret that very differently, or I have done
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: throughout the centuries. So you know, amore can the Golden
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Rosy Cross is probably not going to have much in common.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Or I think the Rosa Christian Fellowship is all about
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: astrology and astronomy, and so Rosa Christianism gets interpreted very differently.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, Judith, did you have anything?
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have a question.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: It's actually asking more of your opinion on the evolution
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: of the freemasonry. I grew up around a different type,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: not the United not the ones we have here, nor
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: the ones in Europe, but it's always been an all
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: male fraternity and a couple I think about within the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: last ten years I discovered that there there are some
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: and I don't know if it's accepted that there are
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 4: some where there's both male and females, remember.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there is, Yeah, and I think that that
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: mostly comes out of France actually, so that's usually called
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: adoptive Freemasonry. I believe there is there is a lodge
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: like that, or maybe it's an all female lodge in Washington,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: d C. But but they are, they are definitely active
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: over here. I've I've met them on one occasion. So yeah,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, and the United Grand Lodge of England knowledges
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: or recognizes to some degree female jurisdictions as well. But yeah,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: so again it gets complicated when you when you think
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: about as.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: A whole the distruction outside the Eastern Star.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah no, that's right, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and yeah
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: there are there are there are female jurisdictions and and
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: mixed mixed male and female jurisdictions where they would do
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: all of the Masonic degrees that we that we have
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: or the craft degrees. And I think the Scottish writer
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: as well at least. So yeah, so they was exists,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: we would consider them to be irregular or mainstream freemasonry
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: was considered them to be irregular, but they soundly exist.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you want you want to you want to
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: go edge?
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: No, go ahead, I have a question, but I'll ask
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: it in a few Incidentally, on the note of female Freemasons,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: the the the artists behind Crowley's thofth tarot deck was
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: a female Freemason, and she actually painted three Masonic tracing
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: boards as well, which pretty cool, quite psychedelic, but you
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: can find them online. Lady Freda Harris's not familiar to Yeah, yeah,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: Not know that. If there is any point in freemasonry,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: even if it's I guess maybe an Inner Order or
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: something or different different types of lineage just couple get
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: entertained at all.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: Well, So, during the eighteenth century you had the Asiadic Brethren,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: which was they were not Asiadic, they were basically German Caucasians,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: but you had to always have an exotic name in
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: that world. So they're also called the African African Brothers
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: or African Bruders. So yeah, so they're their raison detra
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: was to translate Jewish capitalistic texts and it's not a
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: huge deal. But actually, even even when I went to
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: the Grand Lodge of England shop before I was a Freemason,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: about twenty five years ago, even there they were selling
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: a basic book on Kabbala by Thamesen Hudson. But it
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: wasn't a Masonic book. It was literally a book on Kabbala,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: and Freemasons often mentioned it. How our Pike, who is
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: overrated and conspiracy theorists love him because he's a you know,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: he talks about Lucifer. But well, put it this way,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: he may or may not talk about Lucifer. Half of
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: his half of his magnum Opus Morals and Dogma is
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: actually plagiarized from other authors. So I don't know if
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: he talked about it or just plagiarized it from someone else.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: But but you know, he would talk about Kabbalah and
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: old I have have some old ritual books of the
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: Scottish right, and in the Night of the Sun Degree
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: there's a there's a brief mention of Kabbala. It might
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: be mentioned in the Scottish rite today depending on which jurisdiction.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: But so yeah, so these things, these things pop up personally.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of interest in I mean,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: I think it's I think I think it's probably a
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: really great thing to practice if if you grew up,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: grew up Jewish, and I've read, I've read through some
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: books by Jewish rabbis on the kabbala, and it's you
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: you have to be studying the religion from birth. Really,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: it's otherwise you're never going to catch up with that,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: You're never going to understand all of the references. But
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: of course there is Christian kabbala, and there is Hermetic kabala,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: but these seemed to me to be very much stripped
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: down in comparison to Jewish Kabbala, to be honest, Pacidic abbala.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so in kabbala, maybe it is interesting a
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: lot of esoteric Freemasons like you, I'm not, I'm not
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: especially interested, but but yeah, it certainly pops pops up
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: maybe in the Scottish rite today and throughout Masonic history.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: And also I would say that yes, that is that
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: is also a focus a little bit of the society
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: as far as a Cruisiana, not exclusively, but but that
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: would that would be a focus on all that order
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: as well with society.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Yeah, all right, Judith, I want
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: to ask him now.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, actually I do have a question. It's more on
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: the conspiracy theories. But I have to preference it a
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: little because I understand within the beginning of the Mason
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: tradition most people who became Masons were educated, they had influence,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: so their influence usually was in the political circles back then.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: What is your opinion on it currently, Freemasonry within political
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: influence in today's society.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first all, yes, there were many educated Freemasons
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: of the eighteenth century and nineteenth century were there were
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: also many Freemasons were not that educated. To be honest
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: with you, Sailor's not that saying that you can't be
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: educated if you're a sailor, but you know, a sailor
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: travels sailing abroad for months at a time, is not
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: It's not at the level of a president or a
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: senator or anything like that. But and you know, even
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: to even today, there's there's a real range of people
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: in freemasonry from you know, some of who are doing
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: very well financially and maybe quite influential, and and many
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: who are not. And you know, I mentioned the the
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: other member who became an initiate of the society as
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: far as Christiana with me that evening, and he he
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: was again very artistic, which really without giving any information
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: away that might suggest to someone who he is not
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: not the most listeners would know. But but with somebody
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: who was just scraping by financially and really in an
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: obscure and very underpaid, underpaid part of the arts, let's say,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm surprising made any money at all. But yeah,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: So free Freemasonry as a as a force for political
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: intrigue in the world today, well, free Masonry is often
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: associated or often part of these conspiracy theories where they
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: secretly run the world and this kind of thing. So
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: the last thing most politicians want to be associated with
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: is organizations that are deemed to be by some people
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: to be corrupt running the world. We know it's all
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: about secret handshakes with Israel and this kind of thing.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: They don't really want to be seen as part of that.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: So most free most politicians are probably going to steer
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: clear of it for that reason. And it's just not
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: at the level of saturation in society that it was
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years ago, two hundred years ago. Sure,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: George Washington, and I think thirteen of the founding fathers
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: were Freemasons. Again, yeah, and I'm sure the rest were
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: belonged to other clubs. That was just normal, whereas now
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: it's not normal to belong to any kind of club.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: So it seems to us you think, oh my goodness,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: thirteen members were Freemasons. Wow, that's high. Well, it probably
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't high, because everybody from the top of society to
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: almost at the bottom, not at the right at the Bomb,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: but much much lower down would have been free Masons,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: or they would have been in some other club as well,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: would not have struck anyone as unusual at all.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 4: It is something I think we all we overlook a
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 4: lot when we look at the Freemasons and back then,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 4: because we didn't realize that there were so many fraternities
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: that to actually move within society in any way, in
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: any way, that you had to be part of some
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: type of order.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you didn't have to be, but if
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: you wanted any kind of social life, or if you
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: wanted to obtain knowledge that was not you know, immediately accessible,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: then you would need to join these groups. Really, I mean,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: if we were back in the eighteenth century, could could we?
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, now, I have loads of books around me.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: In fact, I always collect so many books that I
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: have to purge them every few years. But to have
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: that a number of books in eighteenth century would have
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: been I don't know if I don't think I could
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: have afforded it. These were very valuable and books on
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: our can me this kind of thing. It's just not
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: it's not as accessible. Going going back to Pike without
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: taking and trying to take another pot shot at him,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: why was Pike considered to be this absolute genius when
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: he plagiarized half his magnum opus. It's because there really
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: wasn't that much around no one, Okay, plagiaris Levi among
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: other riders, But how many people would read at Levi
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: or Levy? You know, there just wasn't. There wasn't very much.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: So it was it was just a different time, and
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: people have a difficulty putting themselves back in that time. Yeah,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: of course you would. Why wouldn't you join a society
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: if you were in the eighteenth of the nineteenth century?
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: What what what are you doing other than that? And
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: I mean today, of course one can make a living.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: Let's say online, you have a you have a remote job,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: and maybe you get all of your work or your
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: work contacts through LinkedIn. You really don't have to see anyone.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: But this was impossible. You had to really be I mean,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: just to survive. You had to be connected to your
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: neighbors and to your community at the very least. And
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: if you wanted to get on in life, which doesn't
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: mean in some sort of corrupt way, but if you
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: want to get on in life and not just do
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: what your father did and would initiate you into, then yeah,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: you'd better be making some connections and joining a club,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: including Freemasonry would have been a good way of doing
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: that would be the only way of doing that. Really,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: maybe church as well, but basically that's it. But yeah,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: so today, maybe it's different in France where they have
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: the Grand Orient, which has always been the jurisdiction of
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: the Grand Orient, which has always been a little more
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: interfering and meddling in politics, and that's why we don't
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: recognize as them as as regular freemasonry. But in general,
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: from what I have seen, the politicians are not uh,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: people running for government are not keen to be part
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: of an organization with the wild conspiracy theories are flying
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: around about. They don't really want that.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: Actually, I wasn't even thinking about this until now. And
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: it's not even to go against what you were saying.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: But I remember the last when Biden was president, and
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: I think because I lived in New York.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, actually I know what you're gonna say.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: Biden's and the and the and the mayor of New
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: York both joined the Prince Hall Masons, and that was
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: what that could publicize.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: Oh I don't know about the mayor, but well so yeah,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: so that's well, that's interesting. Why would you join the
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: Prince Hall Masons if you are if you are a
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: former president, let's say, like like Biden, he didn't join
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: it before he became a Freemason or during he waited
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: until after. But who are the Prince Hall Freemasons?
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: Do you know? I was actually going to ask you
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: if you could speak on them, but I wasn't sure
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: if you could, like if you even had experience.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: What JUDI if you should know because historically it is
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: it was the the jurisdiction, the Masonic jurisdiction for African
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: American men basically but off.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: But then then again I did say it was black.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: Maybe it makes sense now.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so so yeah, so I'm not I'm not super
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: up on the history of Prince Hall Masonry. So but
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: I believe probably around a little after mid eighteenth century
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: that the Prince whow that was the name of the
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: man who found it, this this freemasonry for for descendants
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: of Africans, basically, I guess we could put it like that.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: And then later on it was renamed after him, so
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: it became Prince Hall Masonry. He didn't call it after himself,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: but yeah, and for the longest time it was really
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: only for black men, men of African descent, and maybe
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: maybe it would be okay for some other ethnic groups
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: as well, but really really almost entirely men of African descent,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: and you know, it should be said, probably doing quite
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: a lot of good in that community. I have seen
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: an issue of Ebony magazine from the nineteen fifties, I
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: think it was maybe the sixties, an issue dedicated to
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: Prince Hall Masonry, and in there it was talking about
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: how much money and they were giving to the community
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: millions of dollars, which would be in an extraordinary amount today.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: And there are lots of photographs of Masonic lodgiers, meaning
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: that the members were wearing tuxedos and looking extremely smart
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: and really probably a good influence in different ways on
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: on the African American community and important to her in
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: many in many respects. But yeah, so, so, yeah, so
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: joining is kind of interesting. Why wouldn't Biden just join? Today,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: almost every state, almost every regular Masonic jurisdiction in every
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: state recognizes the Prince Hall and so so you can
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: visit each other's lodges and they're both considered legitimate. I
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: think there's one or two states in the South at don't.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: But why why would why would you? Why would he
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: join the Prince Hall lodge. I suspect maybe he has
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: some personal connections there or maybe personal you know, friends
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: that asked him to join something like that. But I
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: do but I do think in this day and age,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: it gives him a kind of cover that the people
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: won't turn around and it's like, oh my gosh, he's
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: joined the Illuminati, right because because it's historically black, it's
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: which means it's historically disprivileged, oppressed, whatever it may be.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: It's more difficult to make the case of we knew it.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: He was in the Illuminati all along or whatever it
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: might be. Or he will be running, he will be
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: the world president next year. So I think there is
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: an element where it gives him a little bit of cover,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: to be quite honest, I think that's that's probably why.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: But you don't you don't typically find you don't find
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: politicians joining regular non Prince Hall Masonic jurisdictions very often anymore.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was him and Eric Adams. You remember Eric Adams, right, yeah,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: Eric Adams, you know, and then you know not to
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: keep on making it sound worse, but there are a
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of policemen too. They cai up police officers,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: they put it, they put in the news, say they
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: all joint they all joined. Amazing.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's more sorry, it's it's more common with
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: police because there's a lot of an unformer army guys. Definitely,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: because yes, it is a little bit militaristic in the
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: sense that it's very very organized. You'll stand up at
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: the same time, you will sit down at the same time.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: You always wear you're all wearing a suit. It's all guys.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: There is a kind of slight militarism to it. In
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: a ceremonial thing.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: What you're getting at.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 4: There's that and there's also which Actually when I did
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 4: come out of that type of environment, because that's the
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: environment I grew up with, there is a prestige, there
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 4: is a social standing, a higher you're held up to
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 4: a higher standard. And I would compare it to being
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 4: considered amaze in Europe in the I guess seventeen hundreds
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 4: that it's a status that comes with it that still
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 4: was there.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: And I was actually surprised when I came out into.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 4: The world and I met other Masons that they weren't
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 4: held to the same hybrid guard.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a status.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 4: There is a status that comes with it, which when
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 4: I learned about the conspiracy side, I was like, this
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 4: is not the Mason three that I know.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: So a lot of people who grew up around Prince
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: Hall Masons.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 4: Don't. It's a little con it's a little bit of
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 4: a conflict because we were like, this is not what
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 4: we know about Masons, right, But I see it's like
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 4: it's a couple of maybe a century or two behind
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 4: where the Freemasonry that everybody else talks about is.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean when I was growing up free Masons
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: in England still had a little bit of a little
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: bit of prestige. But even then it was very much
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: sort of we know that they all vote for the
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: Conservative Party, and and you know, we know that they
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: are corrupt politicians and businessmen. So it was still it
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: had a little bit of that already, but probably well
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: if you went back to prior to World War Two,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: it would probably be it would still have more prestige.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: And one thing that happened with World War two. I
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: was talking about this the other day actually, but before
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: World War two in America, maybe America after as well,
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: but certainly in America and in Great Britain, there would
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: be parades of Masonic parades through through the streets and
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: thousands of people would turn out. Again, there's not the
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: social life and entertainment is very different at that point,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: so people would turn out and in the thousands, and
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: there would be Masonic parades, and no one was pretending
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: it wasn't freemas everyone knew what it was. It was
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: just an acceptable part of the social fabric of the countries.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: But with World War Two that the Nazis wanted to well,
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: the Nazis started putting Freemasons into concentration camps pretty much immediately.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: And they also have planned and they would ransacked Masonic
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: lodges and put on time Masonic exhibitions, but you were
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: going to end up in a concentration camp if you're
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: a Freemason. And they also had drawn up plans for
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: exterminating Freemasons in Great Britain as well. So that see,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: that seems to have been one reason for being less
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: open after World War two, because you realize you do
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: have elements that want to kill you.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: So I forgot about I forgot all about that with
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: them were reading the Masonic lodges.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all right. Yeah, where do you.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: Think the reason was that?
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: The reason well, so it go goes back to anti
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: Semitic conspiracy theories from the maybe the late eighteenth century.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I forget the exact the exact date of
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: the of this, the sort of forging of these anti
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: Semitic conspiracy theories. I'm not I'm not going to say
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: the name of the book, but there is so there
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: was a book produced by it seems to be by
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: the Russian secret police in France. I think I think
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong. I think it was around nineteen hundred,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: A little bit before that, and it was composed from
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: from different books and from a novel and from from elsewhere,
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: and it was supposed to be the minutes of the
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: meeting of Zionists and it and it lays out how
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: they're going to destroy destroy Europe. And the premise is
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: that democracy is really bad because what it's doing, it's
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: taking away the natural protectors of the people, which are
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: the monarchies of each country. And it's actually and although
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: the people think that they're becoming freer, they're actually becoming
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: they're actually opening themselves up to their own enslavement because
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: the benevolent king will not be able to not be
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: there to protect protect them. And then they lay out
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: so this book lays out how they are as if
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: one would really do this, as it lays out how
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: they are supposedly destroying Europe in particular, and it's things
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: like to pervert the press, the newspapers. And I have
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: to say, when you read it, you think, oh, my goodness,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: this is really happening. But what they do, of course,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: they take human nature because yeah, if any of the
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: three of us or anyone listening to this had a newspaper,
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: it would reflect their opinions, right, reflect If I own
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: a newspaper, it's damn well going to reflect my opinions. No,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not giving equal, equal, equal weight to both sides
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: because the other newspapers are not doing that. Why should
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: I have newspapers out there that are, you know, saying
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: I'm a monster and saying anyone who believes like me
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: as a terrible person, and then I'm going to give
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: them equal weight. No, I'm going to express my opinions.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: So by it's very nature. The newspapers are corrupt. But
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: instead of saying, well, that's kind of human nature, they say,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: that's not human nature. You're not like that. That's the
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: Jews or that's the Zionists, you see. And so but
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: one one chapter talks about well, and we are getting
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: the Freemasons to kind of soften up society for us,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: and they are they are our lackeys, which there's a
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: lot of Solomonic Temple of Solomon type symbolism in Freemasonry.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: So you know, when people see that, they think, oh,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: that's that's it. But but this is yeah, this was
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: a really intentional propaganda. It also filtered into the Middle
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: East and it's very very big over there now in
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: those communities and then filtering back into the West through
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: that route. It's a very dangerous conspiracy theory, really, probably
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: the most dangerous. Actually. Yeah, but that's the historical connection
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: because in this in the chapter of this this particular
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: book that was concocted, it says, oh, the Freemasons are
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: the shock troops of of of the Jews or the Zionists.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: So that's why there's been this historical well, there's been
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: this historical connection that people have made, like the Nazi Party.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: There was somebody asking in here, and I want to
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: make sure I asked, because they missed a few times.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: By the way, just just again, I should I should
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: add before you move on that. So in Germany before
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: World War Two, you had to be a Christian to
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: join a Masonic lodge. And there was a very famous
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: general who was for a little while part of Hitler's
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: sort of inner circle, called General Ludendorf, and he actually
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: wrote a Masonic anti Masonic pamphlet saying that, well, sure
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: they only allow Christians in, but that's because it's a
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: kind of machine for turning them into Jews. So it
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: didn't matter that you couldn't be Jewish and joy in
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: it was still portrayed as well, it's really Jewish, it's
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: turning Christians into Jews. So you know, there's these theories
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: are out there and I didn't have very real consequences unfortunately,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: including today that Yeah, thank you.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: I don't want to comment. I do want to address
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 3: a comment Tara.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 4: No, actually that's not true because I grew up in
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: a Catholic household in my dad.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: It was amazing, So no, that's not true.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was there was actually a Catholic grand Master.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: I think the second author Grandmaster was Catholic. So so
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: the Catholic Church says you can't be a Catholic and
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: a Freemason, but freemasonry doesn't say that you can't be
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: a Catholic.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: Ah, I didn't know the Church said that.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they say that, but but the Freemasonry doesn't say
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: that you can't be belonged to a religion. That's up
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: to you, that's on your conscience. But you should believe
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: in God. That's what that's the only criterion.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: But I am a Haitian Catholic.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 4: That's a little bit different, no, because I was like,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 4: that's I know a lot of Catholics that were. But
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 4: then again, I'm like, oh, we were kind of at
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 4: one point we were not part of the Vatican.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: Oh is that right?
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, at one point we were not in the history.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that didn't apply to us.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: You missed that.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 3: But that question you want to ask.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, the is there a connection with Freemasonry?
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: I think this is what this person is, a connection
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: with Freemasonry and Scull and Bones.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: Well, not not really. I mean technically, no, that's not
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: and we don't have any relationship with them. The only
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: the only connection quote unquote would be that a lot
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: of fraternities in America clearly borrowed from Masonic rituals to
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: create their own rituals for their for their societies. So
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: maybe I would think that Skull and Bones probably took
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: some things from from the Masonic ritual I wouldn't be surprised.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 4: Okay, it sounds like the Freemasonry birth a lot of eclectic.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: Offshoot groups, not just esoteric. Yeah, I mean, that's that's
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: the that's the thing, And I think it's largely to
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: not largely, it's at least partly to do with them
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: that the world was changing very rapidly during the eighteenth
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: and nineteenth centuries, and yeah, and then Freemasonry was able
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: to spread worldwide through commerce, also through armies as well,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: and influenced different things. Not in the sense of, oh,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: we're going to influence this, but someone would join a
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: Masonic lodge and then take something from it and create
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: their own society. And on the one hand, maybe that's
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: the the medic Order of the Golden Dawn, but then
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: it's also sort of union union type fraternities that used
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: to exist, like the Ancient Order of American Junior Order
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: of Ancient I forget what it is, Ancient Order of
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: American Mechanics or something like what Junior Order of Junior
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: Order of American Mechanics, something something like that, which which
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: is you know, quite quite quite unesoteric and much more
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: of a union, but still some influence. It's from Freemasonry
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: there as well. So it kind of shapes a lot
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: of things. And that's partly to do with the timing, you.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: Know, thinking about it now, I do wonder with your
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: you know what you're saying, kind of like with the Freemasonry,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: like I do know that, like I did know the
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: situation with masonry and crawling and how he kind of
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: just gutted some of the rituals and threw his own
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: shit and it changed it a little bit, But.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit. But most of it comes from
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: the right of Memphis and Misram and the Scottish Rites.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: And there is in it. There is something trying to
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: get into it too much. But in my experience going
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: through initiations, there's something in one of their initiations that,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: my opinion, is very reminiscent of an idea that is
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: out there about skull and bones and what they do
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: in theirs. And if that's true, I'm wondering if that
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: is actually something that is shared through them due to
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: borrowing that from masonry, and if masonry was originally the
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: one tell us what it is. Oh, I didn't want
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: to put you on the spot with the whole thing
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: of acting like you get nailed in a coffin.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, because you hear that about.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Skull and bones and that's been something I'll just put
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: it out there. From my experience, I kind of went
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: through something very much like that in the OTO. So
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, is that due to freemasonry.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: Well, there is coffin symbolism in freemasonry, not quite so
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: much in America, more in Great Britain, and often that's
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: a tracing board. Again, a tracing board is like the
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: painting I have behind me that that looks like a
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: tracing board. It's modeled after the sonic tracing boards. And
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: they are paintings that would be shown during a lecture
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: as part of the ritual process it and then it
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: would illustrate the symbols or the emblems of freemasonry. And
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: on one of those in England very often there was
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: a coffin, sometimes with a corpse in it. So yeah,
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: so there is that. Sometimes it would be painted on
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: a floor cloth a coffin and laid on the flo
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: well again not not really so much in America, but
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: certainly more in England. Yeah, and that might be something
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: that scon and Bones took from freemasonry, not hammering nails
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: in a coffin or an actual physical coffin. But maybe
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: maybe they took the idea of a coffin from there.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure that the oto do dyeah.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: I was just that just made me think of it now.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I wonder if they got that
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: from masonry. Interesting, well, that would kind of make sense
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: for Crowley too, right.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, and everything that sprouted after that due
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: to it too.
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: It's just in my opinions certain things that I remember
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: even though it's not maybe being used, but the instrument
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: is still there, or I guess, like a candle for
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: a specific reason, or just makes me think of certainly
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: sonic stuff that I've heard that I thought was blatant
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: in Oto. So I could see my opinion that there
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: is Freemasonry crossover Icelandah.
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it really was a cultural force at
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: one point for sure.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: Cool. Uh, Judith, did you have anything else? Unfortunately I
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: have the wrop up because we do have another.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 3: Show la, Yes we do. Uh No, Actually I don't
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: have any. I don't have anything.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 4: I am pleased with the and surprise at the connection
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 4: with so many different groups within the Freemasery. It's like
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 4: the Freemasony was the birthplace, this birthplace of so many.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the things about
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: the occult world today, it's very difficult to actually put
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: put different orders in context if you don't know about Freemasonry,
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: and in particular, if you don't know about this sort
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: of explosion of different Masonic orders rites practicing all of
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: these intriguing things during the eighteenth and nineteenth century, and
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: not many people do know about it in that world.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much again. Angel, welcome. Thanks, definitely
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: some stuff in there. I've never even heard of it before.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not entirely well known. It has to be.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: Said, Judith, since you weren't here at the beginning. You
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: want everybody to know what's up with you and where
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: they can find all your amazing stuff.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 4: Yes, thank you and thank you. I'm sorry I was late.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me and you could always catch
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 4: me as the Loon on YouTube x and Alan Spreaker
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 4: and I'll be doing the Weekly Brunch.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: Going back to the weekly Brunch next week. I missed
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 3: this the last two d two weeks.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: It happens nice. It's good to have you on.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 3: Let's see and Angel is always a pleasure. Sheeing you.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've good seeing you too. Absolutely an Angel.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: Please let everybody know what's up with you. Promote anything
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: you would like, Remind him about the book all that stuff.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So my latest book is Supernatural Woman and the
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: Male Initiate Bonded through Dreams, which actually does have a
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: little bit about Freemasonry in there, although it goes into
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: a lot more esoteric and occult material. But yeah, a
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: little bit about free masonry, a little bit about the
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: wick and ritual, and about this mysterious supernatural woman that
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: shows up throughout time. Awesome, thank you very ye, thank you.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Hopefully I have you back on again in the future.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: Sure. Absolutely, I feel like I'm part of the team.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, thank you for real. No, I'd love
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: to get you on again in the future. There was
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: actually so many questions I didn't even answer because it
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: just spurred into other questions I wasn't thinking of. So
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll continue this or something else. But uh, thank
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: you everybody too in the chat. I appreciate it. Uh,
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: even some of the comments that didn't seem to make
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: any sense, I appreciate those two h but uh yeah,
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: tonight we'll also be going live if you want to
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: check it out. In about another hour, we'll be I guess,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: kicking around the idea of the divine feminine. So yeah,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: I guess you could check us out if you want.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: And thank you all, and until the next one, everybody
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: be Willlida