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Manhattan Alien Abduction P3: The Unmasking · Journey to the Fringe

0:03
From the unexplained to the mundane, come join
0:06
us on a journey to the fringe. Hello and welcome
0:13
to Journey to the Fringe, where, like, I guess
0:17
anybody can write a letter, like, just, like,
0:20
all the time to somebody who's not going to respond
0:22
and, like... Anyhow, that's the story I'm getting
0:26
at this point. Hey, Chelsea, what are we doing
0:29
right now? Okay, thank God, we're at the end
0:32
of the story. At the beginning of the next episode,
0:35
I'm shaking things up on this episode, and I'm
0:38
starting by asking you, Taylor, what are your
0:41
thoughts about the Manhattan abduction story?
0:44
Which I think I've only called it here for the
0:46
very first time on the third episode. Okay. Well,
0:50
Chelsea, you actually mentioned that at least
0:52
once before this. Okay. I think it was when we
0:55
were saving the episodes. Yeah, maybe. Anyhow.
1:02
I find Dan and Richard to be very weird individuals
1:07
who keep really bugging one guy who will not
1:10
respond to them. Well, he does respond. Well,
1:12
he does, but, like, at the same time. He tries
1:15
to, like, interview them and stuff. But I feel
1:18
like I know Dan and Richard way more than I do
1:21
Bud Hopkins. And I guess that is you specifically
1:24
said, like, you're going to do, like, Bud Hopkins
1:26
would be his own episode at some point in the
1:28
future. Yes. Yeah. But, like, it feels like they're
1:32
just going so hard at this story. And, like,
1:34
I don't know. It feels like they're tangentially
1:38
involved in what may be a UFO story. But, like,
1:41
it just keeps going and they're pushing it. And
1:43
they go from, like... what I thought were respected
1:47
people in the community to just, like, nope,
1:49
they're harassing this woman. Yeah, yeah. Do
1:52
you get any other feelings about them, like,
1:54
being involved with the UN Secretary General?
1:58
I don't understand that relationship. Like, maybe
2:03
security was a different thing back in the past,
2:06
but I feel like any current UN Secretary General
2:12
would not have... friends named danny and richard
2:16
just like by his side doing fun stuff and and
2:22
what do you make of like linda's abduction story
2:26
i honestly don't know okay i just like it's hard
2:30
to say just because like First off, it's hard
2:35
to say whether or not somebody's lying or not
2:37
in these stories. The fact that these people
2:40
are backing it up is one thing, but at the same
2:42
time, they're very weird. Their backing up of
2:46
the story I find very, not disturbing, but like...
2:50
maybe perturbing's the right word for it, where
2:53
it's like, why are they so adamantly involved
2:56
in this story? Yeah, yeah. I got a lot of weird
3:00
feelings from it. Yeah, I think it's just that,
3:02
like, these are weird vibes I'm getting from
3:04
the story as we keep going, which is weird because
3:07
I do know that, like, the Manhattan abduction,
3:09
but I don't know this part of it where it gets,
3:11
like, uncomfortably continued. Yeah. Maybe is
3:16
the right way to put it. Yeah. And I don't know
3:18
why I never heard of that either. Like I was
3:20
familiar with the girl floating out of her window
3:23
and everything, but I never had it continue on.
3:25
And this is, this is the known whole part of
3:29
the story. And I do realize now in my retelling,
3:32
now that you say that, it does seem like Bud
3:34
Hopkins did not play a huge role in this, but
3:37
he did. he was the central investigator along
3:40
this he interviews all the 23 witnesses he's
3:44
trying to track down everybody and find richard
3:48
and dan he wants to talk to them I just, I guess
3:51
I didn't put him in the story as much as you
3:54
should have. No, and it's, I get it because you're
3:56
saying like he's going to have his own episode
3:58
at some point. But yeah, it kind of felt like
4:00
Dan and Richard were like reaching out on their
4:02
own, like repeatedly. They were. Just Linda reached
4:07
out to him after everything. He was doing all
4:11
the hypnosis regressions and stuff like that.
4:13
He was the main contact. So he does play a huge
4:17
role in this. If he gets his own episode or not,
4:21
we're not going to cover this episode. Maybe
4:24
we'll touch on it a little in a future episode.
4:26
But he does play a huge role in this. I guess
4:29
just Richard and Dan's letters really took front
4:32
and center on this. And you really did a show
4:35
-stopping performance on it. Anything else? Well,
4:40
I'm just happy they weren't Italian. Like if
4:43
that happened, they actually did have like, well,
4:46
at least in the Netflix retelling, they had like
4:48
a, I wasn't going to tell you what kind of accent
4:51
they had, but it was like a strong New York accent
4:54
now that you're done reading. So I did pick up
4:59
on a lot of stuff just as I went through the
5:02
story and I was making the script. Maybe I was
5:05
playing a little bit more closer attention because
5:07
I was making the script going through the story.
5:09
But as I went through it before I looked, at
5:12
the critiques I wrote down my own thoughts which
5:15
I'm gonna go through now and you tell me what
5:17
you think of these as we go I did find the witnesses
5:22
super fishy. If I didn't know better myself,
5:25
the letters are way too convenient. First of
5:29
all, I know Bud Hopkins is the most renowned
5:32
abduction dude. However, way too big of a coincidence
5:36
that these people just so happened to reach out
5:39
to Bud Hopkins, who just so happened to have
5:42
been investigating Linda. Not only to reach out
5:45
to him in the first place, but also for them
5:48
to continue writing and explaining their actions
5:51
to Bud Hopkins. That is the so weird part where
5:54
they start out like, oh yeah, we were like police
5:57
officers. And then they just keep doing it. Keep
6:00
narrating their actions, right? Yes, yes. They're
6:04
narrating what's happening to Bud. Why did they
6:07
reach out to him in the first place? Yeah, it's
6:10
super weird. Why? And not only that, but... they
6:14
continue and I find that in and of itself to
6:18
be the most prominent red flag and is hugely
6:21
detached from reality and anything that would
6:24
actually happen in real life. And I find some
6:28
of the things they say super strange. For example,
6:31
when Danny writes his letter and he says there's
6:34
a cover -up going on from the information we've
6:37
been given that he has only witnessed Linda floating
6:41
outside her window. How could he possibly think
6:44
a cover -up is going on? And it seems to take
6:46
incredible leaps in between letters and escalating.
6:50
And I wouldn't expect that he had spoken to anyone
6:53
else about this given the embarrassment and shame
6:56
they speak about. Also, how would they know the
7:00
exact apartment Linda was in to find her? Do
7:04
you find that weird? I do. And the fact that
7:07
they stalk her from there on out. Yeah. Like,
7:09
does it make sense to you at all that having
7:12
witnessed something like that right at that exact
7:16
moment on however many stories tall a building
7:19
is to make note somehow of exactly what floor
7:23
she was on? Yeah, I can't say that's something
7:26
I would make note of when I'm watching somebody
7:30
get abducted through a window. Something life
7:32
-altering? Exactly. Into a UFO spaceship? But
7:36
at the same time, that was your soulmate. I can't
7:38
remember which one of them, but one of them's
7:39
like, yeah, that's my soulmate. I need to know
7:41
which one. I need to know which room she's in
7:45
so that I can go back to her very awkwardly and
7:48
tell her this. But, like, it's dark. Like, exact
7:52
building? Yeah, I'll give them that. But I call
7:55
bullshit unless it's at like the very top floor
7:58
or something. Maybe, maybe it was the top floor.
8:01
And still, it would have to have been less than
8:04
a minute time frame to catch that. And wouldn't
8:06
they go directly to Linda first instead of Bud
8:09
Hopkins? Right? Yeah. And don't you think that
8:13
if they didn't want to be identified, that these
8:16
guys wouldn't be using their boss's highly identifiable
8:19
UN car to kidnap someone? And that they wouldn't,
8:25
for apparently no reason at all, be updating
8:27
Bud Hopkins on a kidnapping with literally everything
8:31
they're doing. And including their boss in this
8:34
too. Yes. And speaking of that, this is an infamous
8:38
case within the UFO community being that these
8:41
guys were the security details for a pretty high
8:44
up political figure that this would not have
8:47
come to light that they kidnapped somebody in
8:50
a work vehicle and like had some repercussions
8:52
to their work life. Apparently not. The boss
8:55
was just like, take my UN license, please go
8:58
kidnap someone. Doesn't matter. And remember
9:01
when I said it was a weird detail about the random
9:04
tape included with a letter yeah why the fuck
9:07
else would that be included other than having
9:11
a voice that wasn't linda's on tape for evidence
9:15
easy enough to ask a friend for a one -time favor
9:18
in my opinion yeah especially when they they
9:22
don't know her in any way yeah Prior to that.
9:26
Yeah. The fact that you're mentioning that now
9:27
makes a lot of sense that, oh, these are completely
9:30
third party fuckers. Doesn't it seem. Not, not
9:33
the. Does it seem, it seems misplaced. Yeah.
9:36
I hope this helps. Here's my voice on a letter.
9:39
And it's almost like it is trying to jump to
9:43
providing evidence before it's asked for. Yeah.
9:46
Well, not only that, like providing evidence
9:49
that would disprove your thing prior to. Yeah.
9:53
That's true. That wouldn't normally be gotten.
9:56
It seems weird. Like, oh, you don't think I met
9:58
her? Like, oh, you don't think I have a girlfriend
10:01
in Canada? Well, here's her centerfold in the
10:05
Playboy, you fucking idiots. That is what it
10:08
feels like. Here's her voice on my voicemail
10:11
that she sent me before you even ask for it.
10:15
So Bud presses her for witnesses to these two
10:19
men when they showed up at the apartment building.
10:21
She says, did anyone see them when they came
10:23
into the apartment building? anyone at all that
10:26
may have seen them and it was a no so just conveniently
10:30
a tape shows up that was an immediate red flag
10:33
for me and like where's this tape coming like
10:36
why it's unsolicited why would you say i hope
10:38
this helps here's a tape it's almost as if this
10:42
was fabricated and this little note in one of
10:45
their letters immediately makes me think it was
10:49
linda Tell me if you get the same vibes. This
10:52
is where I thought it the first time. It wasn't
10:54
the tape. Quote, P .S. Linda is a darling little
10:57
lady. End quote. The way they were describing
11:01
Linda's heart -shaped lips doesn't read as believable.
11:05
If you want to give thoughts or letters for whatever
11:08
motivation they may have had, these are 100 %
11:11
not details that are going to be included. 100
11:14
million percent not going to be included. Linda's
11:18
a darling lady. Who is going to put something
11:21
like that? It is really weird how sexualized
11:23
she is as somebody who's being abducted. Yeah.
11:27
So these details of how they're describing Linda.
11:31
Yeah. It's Linda to me. It's Linda writing these
11:34
letters. Do you get the same vibes just being
11:37
what I'm saying? Yeah, I get that. It's my opinion,
11:41
but that's what I get from it. I don't think
11:44
these are things that people are going to be
11:47
looking to, especially men. I don't think they're
11:51
details that are, they are going to be looking
11:53
to include. Oh, okay. In eyewitness. No, that's
11:56
fair. I was getting a different thing in that.
11:58
Like, I felt like these guys who were writing
12:00
those letters were too sexualizing of her, but
12:03
it makes sense that she would be writing these
12:05
in this very specific way to make her seem like
12:08
a more exemplary, iconic figure. Iconic figure
12:12
is a good way to put it. It could also be playing
12:15
to her ego. Yeah. It could be a lot of things,
12:18
but I don't think those are details someone's
12:21
going to put. Didn't Bud Hopkins talk to them?
12:24
No. Oh, I thought he did. I don't know why. No.
12:27
Okay. So like I said, those are my thoughts.
12:30
I wrote them all down as I was going through
12:32
the story before. That makes a lot of sense when
12:36
you put it that way. Yeah, it stood out like
12:38
a sore thumb to me, the way that they were speaking
12:41
about Linda. So yeah, before I looked at the
12:44
skeptics, which I'm going to go into now, what
12:47
other people say about this, it reads to me,
12:50
in my opinion, as a love story that Linda wrote.
12:54
To herself. To herself. What do you think of
12:57
my theory? I like that a lot. It sounds a lot
12:59
better than how I was trying to hamstring together
13:02
these guys awkwardly explaining how much they
13:05
love this woman. Yeah. And it makes so much more
13:07
sense once you say, yeah, she made this up. Oh,
13:10
yeah. Yeah, a lot more. I think it's her. Yeah.
13:13
Okay, okay, okay. Let's get into the actual skeptics.
13:16
I had a great source for this. You know, usually
13:20
I'll use multiple sources for something. I had
13:22
a great source that just so beautifully encapsulated
13:25
all. of this. I used it mainly for the whole
13:28
thing. So there is a whole debunk done on this
13:32
case by Joseph Stefula, Richard Butler, and George
13:36
Hansen called A Critique of Bud Hopkins' Case
13:39
of the UFO Abduction of Linda Napolitano. I'm
13:43
going to put it into the episode notes if you
13:45
want to have a look through. They did a fantastic
13:47
job. In reaction to their conclusion, Hopkins
13:51
went on the record saying he thought that they
13:54
were CIA agents. and were met with a strange
13:57
reaction from the higher -ups in MUFON, who aggressively
14:01
tried to dissuade them from continuing their
14:04
investigation. Specifically, that's Jerome Clark
14:07
and Walter Andrus. I wanted to name them just
14:11
so that you know who we're talking about that
14:13
tried to get them not to publish this, and potential
14:17
for future episodes. They also interviewed Linda
14:20
for this. Let's get into it. The only real witness
14:24
to any of this is Linda, though they did send
14:28
one audio tape. And while I wasn't able to find
14:32
these, apparently other people have heard them
14:35
as well. It doesn't discount paying somebody
14:38
to do it, in my opinion. And other witnesses
14:41
came forward. Yes. However, there were no firsthand
14:45
accounts that were verified in person. And we
14:49
will talk about that a little more in a bit.
14:51
Nobody actually saw her with their own eyes floating
14:55
out of her window that Bud Hopkins or anyone
14:59
else actually talked to. Napolitano had already
15:02
been in contact with Hopkins prior to these encounters
15:06
happening, if you don't remember that. Though
15:08
she did recount that it had been happening since
15:11
she was a child. She did have a huge interest
15:14
in UFOs going into this before she even contacted
15:18
Bud Hopkins. And she just so happened to be in
15:21
contact with him when this happened. She did
15:24
do a lot of talk show appearances, including
15:29
Oprah. She did the UFO Circuit. Of course she
15:32
did. The Mufon Symposium. Oprah did more damage
15:35
than we really care to admit to society. Yeah,
15:39
well, Behind the Bastards did a fantastic couple
15:42
episode on Oprah. It was really good. highly
15:46
recommend it and of course behind the bastard
15:49
such a good podcast so she did the move on symposium
15:52
with bud hopkins It did get a lot of attention
15:56
at the time and could probably tell she enjoyed
16:00
the spotlight. If you're looking at it from a
16:03
different angle now of her having written these,
16:06
maybe you think she thinks very highly of herself.
16:10
And you really have to go to a point of like
16:12
how much of the stuff that Oprah had on there,
16:15
even like not dissected, like we know a ton of
16:18
them. were fake. How many of the ones who didn't
16:21
fully admit they were fake were fake? That's
16:23
true. Like, we don't know. That's true. Moving
16:28
on, it's pretty obvious that witnesses Richard
16:32
and Dan probably don't exist. Hopkins never met
16:37
them. They refused to meet him despite supposedly
16:40
being desperate to confirm Linda was alive. There
16:44
were no independent evidence that they existed.
16:47
Nobody else had eyes on them other than Linda.
16:51
Their stories did change repeatedly and they
16:54
were supposedly mentally unstable, yet still
16:58
driving UN plated vehicles and wielding weapons.
17:01
Probably if they're in that position at that
17:04
time. But to be fair, they're Americans. So like,
17:06
it's not unheard of for an unstable American
17:09
to wield a weapon. That's true. That's true.
17:11
It's almost like commonplace. It's like, yeah,
17:14
it's actually more expected to you to be wielding
17:17
a weapon at that point. Moving on the VIP, witness
17:20
Perez de Cuellar is unverified and implausible
17:24
the idea that the secretary general was being
17:27
driven around New York City at 3 a .m. with two
17:30
unstable bodyguards yeah unlikely Hopkins never
17:35
verified any of this either other than some like
17:39
like questions asked The United Nations Secretary
17:42
General Javier Perez de Cuellar, his office,
17:46
according to Magonia magazine, confirmed that
17:49
he was safe at home at the hour. An international
17:52
UFO reporter, Greg Sandow, composer, critic,
17:55
and UFO researcher of this case, quoted that
17:58
Cuellar's letter to PBS, I cannot but strongly
18:01
deny the claim that I have had an abduction experience.
18:05
But that is what somebody would say who has been
18:10
through an abduction experience. And visited.
18:13
About the men in black, so. Exactly, exactly.
18:16
So I can't totally rule him out. We've done a
18:17
men in black episode, right? Yeah, we have. I
18:20
can't totally rule him out based on this information.
18:23
He may or may not be a liar, but the whole question
18:25
is how much he knows he's lying versus how much
18:29
he's being feared into lying. It's true. Next,
18:32
the Brooklyn Bridge witness, Janet Kimball, is
18:35
also highly questionable. Hopkins didn't vet
18:38
her either. So weird. No other witnesses from
18:42
the bridge came forward, even though she says
18:44
that they were running around like mad people
18:46
thinking the world was ending. There were no
18:49
police reports filed. There were no traffic disruptions
18:54
recorded. Her story contains dramatic but implausible
18:57
details, such as her shielding her eyes from
19:01
a UFO a quarter mile away, a handwriting analysis
19:04
done for Janet, who was the witness on the one
19:07
we're talking about, obviously. It matched Linda's.
19:11
Yeah. So, again... Yeah, it's all feeling about
19:14
that right now. And, again... Why did she go
19:19
to Hopkins if she didn't even ask anyone else
19:22
about it? Another coincidence that someone just
19:25
so happened to contact the very same UFO investigator
19:29
who was already working with Linda. Too many
19:32
coincidences. Too many. And I would go out on
19:35
a limb to say not a single witness by chance
19:38
contacted another UFO reporter. I would go out
19:41
on a limb. And I mean, if this isn't enough,
19:45
the immediate red flag to me was when the initial
19:48
letter wasn't open. So she sent another one that
19:50
said confidential regarding Brooklyn Bridge so
19:53
that he would open it. I just, this story is
19:59
so highly regarded. It's just mind blowing to
20:01
me. Let's go to the nasal implant x -ray. It's
20:04
suspicious. The doctor who took the x -ray is
20:07
unnamed. No medical report exists. The doctor
20:11
was nervous and refused to discuss it. Hopkins
20:14
showed it only to his neurosurgeon friend. And
20:17
the author notes it's entirely possible Linda
20:21
inserted something into her own nose. Who was
20:24
the doctor who took the x -rays? We are only
20:27
told that this person is closely connected with
20:29
Linda. Why isn't a formal report available? Given
20:32
the alarming nature of the outcome, why wasn't
20:35
there an immediate examination? Linda said that
20:38
the doctor was nervous and didn't want to talk
20:40
about the x -ray. It's not clear whether Hopkins
20:43
has ever met this alleged doctor. Instead, Hopkins
20:46
shows it to his friend. Yeah, makes sense. That's
20:49
what I would do. Yeah. Just show your friend.
20:52
Nobody else. Some have speculated that Linda
20:55
may have simply just put a small object in her
20:59
nose and had a friendly x -ray technician assist.
21:02
And I'm not a doctor, but if you look at this
21:05
x -ray, this is why I was trying to get the picture
21:07
of the x -ray. It seems far more likely she put
21:12
something in her nose in that location than that
21:16
an implant was placed there. It would have been
21:18
if you put your finger in your nose, it's like
21:20
literally there. It's not like in a location
21:23
where you'd be like, okay, like you couldn't
21:26
just put something there. And why would they
21:29
put an implant like right where you can put your
21:32
finger in your nose? Like that's where it was
21:34
showing, like right in that, like, I don't even
21:36
know what to call that. It's not a nasal cavity
21:38
because it's not that far up. Yeah, I don't know
21:41
what to call it. I know. It just seems like right
21:44
there, which would not be hard to fake, in my
21:47
opinion. During interviews, Linda has also said
21:55
she found CIA stationary in the beach house,
21:59
which doesn't align with what Richard and Dan
22:01
have said that they were, which was a security
22:04
detail for the UN. She believed her blood cells
22:08
don't die, but they rejuvenate. A doctor told
22:11
her, but she was never able to track that doctor
22:14
down again. She thought she might be part alien.
22:17
She once had a hit record under the name Lynn
22:20
Long, but lost her voice in the shower. She does
22:23
play her hit record on the Netflix special and
22:26
lip sync and dance to it. It's super weird segment.
22:30
She and Hopkins agreed to split profits from
22:34
his book. She said this exact profits vary based
22:37
on the interview. And when asked about it, Hopkins
22:40
denied that there was any such arrangement to
22:43
split profits. And Linda then claimed that she
22:46
had deliberately planted disinformation. She
22:49
was descended from Joan of Arc. She was summoned
22:52
to a private meeting with the Pope. And she was
22:55
in the World Trade Center in 9 -11. I mean, there's
23:00
nothing that says she couldn't have done all
23:02
those things other than the fact that she didn't.
23:06
Yeah, that's true. Well, she might have that
23:09
hit record, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. We couldn't
23:12
find it. Despite the fact that looking at hit
23:14
records that have come out. She did sing and
23:18
dance to it on the Netflix special, so I don't
23:21
know. Okay. The authors know that these are signs
23:24
of fantasy, confabulation, or attention -seeking.
23:27
Yeah, no, that's very generally a sign of mental
23:31
illness, like the delusion of grandeur that she's
23:34
really been on with this. Yeah, no, it's really
23:36
looking at her talking and stuff on the Netflix.
23:39
It could be mental illness. Investigators, of
23:42
course, did on -the -ground checks for this report
23:44
that I'm pulling from, if you need a reminder.
23:46
Of course. And what they found seems to contradict
23:49
her story. When they visited the actual locations,
23:52
they found in Linda's complex 24 -hour security.
23:56
The guards had never heard of any UFO event,
24:00
even though there were multiple witnesses. And
24:03
there are over 1 ,600 residents at that apartment
24:06
complex alone. And the police do not routinely
24:09
canvass the building, contradicting Linda's statement.
24:13
Under the FDR bridge, the area very close to
24:17
Linda's apartment, where you would have had a
24:19
clear view of this abduction, it houses the New
24:22
York Post loading dock and is busy all night
24:26
through until 5 a .m. with trucks going in and
24:28
out. The New York Post loading dock workers saw
24:31
nothing and there were no reports of UFOs hovering
24:34
two blocks away. At the downtown heliport, you
24:38
know they check the records. No helicopter movements
24:41
at the time of the alleged VIP transport. Flights
24:45
are only operating between 7 a .m. and 7 p .m.
24:48
And even if there were to be a special flight,
24:52
there is nothing in the flight logs from November
24:54
30th, 1989 on off hours. Moving on to Hopkins'
24:59
Hopkins investigative failures. Hopkins never
25:03
checked weather conditions. It's important because
25:06
if the weather had been foggy, rainy, or snowing,
25:09
the visibility could have been greatly hampered
25:12
and the reliability of basic testimony of the
25:15
witnesses would need to be evaluated accordingly.
25:18
It's a basic investigatory step and he never
25:22
did it. he never verified witness backgrounds
25:25
he never confirmed police canvassing he never
25:28
verified the doctor or x -ray directly only with
25:31
the doctor friends of his he never met the key
25:34
witnesses and witnesses were never independently
25:36
verified he accepted the letters at face value
25:40
he ignored contradictions he allowed linda's
25:43
story to balloon unchecked he only included interviews
25:47
which supported his premise Bud hated debunkers
25:50
and he wanted to prove that this phenomenon existed.
25:54
And his ex -wife Carol felt his investigations
25:57
lacked objectivity. They portray him as credulous,
26:01
sloppy, and overly invested in proving abductions
26:04
are real and his methods have been questioned
26:07
in other abduction investigations. Yeah. I kind
26:11
of got that from where we were at. The fact that
26:14
you said he never actually talked to Dan or Richie.
26:19
Yep. Yep. Who continuously were like, oh yeah,
26:22
this is like, this is a big deal. We saw everything.
26:25
You should probably talk to us. Well, they also
26:29
refused. He tried to talk to them. I know. But
26:32
like that, that is a huge red flag. Yes. Yes.
26:36
He should have seen the red flags. I mean, I
26:38
could see it and I wasn't involved with it. Yep.
26:40
I would love to do a Bud Hopkins episode based
26:43
on this information. I think it would be a good
26:45
asshole one. But I also think that Bud is a guy
26:48
who had a genuine passion for the research he
26:52
was doing and he wanted to believe it from this
26:54
case. It does not appear that he had a skeptical
26:58
bone in his body in regards to this phenomenon.
27:00
It does not appear that he was in on the lie.
27:05
It kind of appears like he just rolled with it.
27:08
He did. support this cause like he held abductee
27:13
like support groups in his apartment he never
27:16
accepted any money for the research he was doing
27:19
the hypnotizing he was doing any of that stuff
27:22
so I don't think it was him lying about it in
27:26
my feeling it is Linda. So let's jump back to
27:30
Bud's ex -wife for a second, Carol. And in the
27:33
Netflix documentary, one of the first words spoken
27:36
on this documentary is by Linda calling her a
27:40
disgruntled bitchy ex -wife. Oh, good. Linda
27:43
is also chain smoking the entire time. In case
27:47
you're curious, it kind of reminded me of the
27:49
Johnny Carson part for the Uri Geller episode.
27:53
Yeah, he has like constantly a cigarette in his
27:57
hand. And Linda's the same in this Netflix documentary.
28:00
Even they show old footage that Carol took of
28:04
her. I'll get into it a little bit, but she just
28:06
always has a cigarette in her hand. So Carol,
28:10
the ex -wife of Bud Hopkins, Bud Hopkins is dead
28:14
now. Carol actually just passed away recently
28:16
as well. Carol made documentaries, and before
28:20
she met Bud, she made scientific documentaries
28:23
based on logic and reason. And cigarettes. And
28:27
she made these documentaries. So she, alongside
28:33
Bud, her husband, was documenting this major
28:36
UFO case that was supposed to be the UFO abduction
28:39
case of the century. And obviously, Linda and
28:42
Carol become mortal enemies based on what Linda
28:45
said about her. I'm guessing solely because Carol,
28:48
more scientifically inclined, is now skeptical
28:51
of Linda's story. And she wasn't initially skeptical
28:55
of it. Carol straight up says that Linda's a
28:57
liar. Carol worked alongside Bud, helping document
29:00
and organize Bud's research. Here are a few things
29:04
that Carol points out. She noticed Linda presented
29:07
information differently than literally anyone
29:10
else under hypnosis. She had a clear, coherent
29:14
narrative, whereas others were kind of scattered,
29:17
like searching for information. And she just...
29:21
came up with it readily. Remember back when Linda's
29:24
son was hypnotized? Well, Carol also said that
29:27
Johnny, Linda's son, Pauses kind of searching
29:31
for information and even kind of corrects the
29:34
information he's giving as if he was coached.
29:37
They interviewed Linda's husband at one point
29:40
and it was kind of the same situation with him.
29:43
Linda would fill in the blanks of things that
29:46
he couldn't quite remember and stuff like that.
29:48
And I will say they do have the son on that documentary.
29:51
His face is covered. He didn't want to be like
29:54
recognized. He probably. Honestly, I believed
29:57
him the most out of anybody, but that doesn't
30:00
mean that he doesn't. When Carol brought up to
30:04
Bud that he may have been coached. Johnny, that
30:07
is. He got very upset and said that she should
30:09
keep those ideas to herself. She also argues
30:12
that Bud was committed to it by going public
30:15
with it. So he couldn't turn around and say it
30:17
wasn't true and face, you know, the repercussions
30:20
of something like that within the community.
30:22
And on that train of thought that he was trying
30:25
to present a compelling story for a potential
30:27
book to movie blockbuster deal and Linda was
30:30
making it crazier and coming up with new things
30:33
consistently. So he wasn't going to say anything
30:37
about that because it was really contributing
30:39
to making it a good book. And he liked that.
30:42
She also said that Bud cherry picked details
30:45
and left things out that would create any questioning.
30:48
Some of the witnesses Bud interviewed were questionable
30:51
with what they had witnessed. One of the witnesses
30:53
only saw a bright light through the curtains.
30:55
That's one of the 23 witnesses. She never opened
30:58
the curtains to see what was there. Okay. Yeah.
31:02
They have the video of it. Oh, I saw it bright
31:04
light. That's it. Okay. That's it. Never open
31:06
the curtains. Yep. Could have been a car with
31:08
high beams going by. Absolutely. She never opened
31:11
the curtains to see. She also, and Bud used that
31:14
as one of the witnesses. She also contends that
31:17
Dan and Richard are paid actors. Yep. Okay. So
31:20
I, because their, their voice is on audio. Like
31:23
there's obviously actors or something. I will
31:25
say there are arguments against Carol. The main
31:28
one that I hear is that she's jealous. I don't
31:31
think I believe that. I think if you're going
31:33
to call out anything, there are other things
31:35
to look at other than jealousy. But she does
31:37
also slam Hopkins a lot for his work and has
31:41
some pretty harsh words against his research
31:43
so I could see why they got divorced. Anyhow,
31:46
she ended up writing an article on how it was
31:48
a hoax online right after Bud's book was published.
31:52
Yep, makes sense. Makes perfect sense. The balls
31:56
on her to do that. That's so funny. Like right
31:58
against your husband's work. I thought that was...
32:01
Wait, they were still married at that time? Yeah.
32:04
Okay, never mind. Yeah, wow. Good for her. I
32:07
know. So critics also point out the urban setting
32:11
makes an unnoticed UFO event very unlikely. The
32:15
case is reliance on Hopkins, whose methods have
32:18
been questioned in other abduction investigations.
32:21
Linda's cousin Connie was with her when Linda
32:23
said someone tried to kidnap her. Bud asked to
32:26
speak with her and Linda had her call him. When
32:29
Bud got off the phone, he had a sour look on
32:32
his face. When his wife asked him what's up,
32:34
he said, Linda just called me pretending to be
32:36
Connie. A kidnapping should be reported to the
32:40
police. It's a felony. At the MUFON symposium,
32:43
Linda was asked if she had reported the kidnapping
32:45
to the police. She said that she had not and
32:48
went on to say that the kidnapping was legal
32:50
because it had to do with national security.
32:53
Jesus, these MUFON cases. We don't know enough
32:57
about the low points of MUFON. We don't. We can't
33:01
have come across the lowest points. I know. No,
33:04
I don't think we have. MUFON maybe needs an episode.
33:07
I don't think that's on our list. And they talk
33:11
to professionals. The actual way security details
33:14
and transport are handled for diplomats of this
33:17
level are not even close to what's described
33:19
in this recounting. And it strangely seems to
33:24
resemble a science fiction novel, Night Eyes,
33:28
by Garfield Reeve Stevens. The work was first
33:31
published in April 1989, a few months before
33:35
Linda claimed to have been abducted from her
33:37
apartment, and I'm just going to read a few similarities
33:40
for you here. Buckle up. Linda was abducted into
33:45
a UFO hovering over her high -rise apartment
33:47
building in New York City. The main character,
33:50
Sarah, was abducted into a UFO hovering over
33:53
her high -rise apartment building in New York
33:55
City. Dan and Richard initially claimed to have
33:58
been on a stakeout and were involved in a UFO
34:00
abduction during early morning hours. Early in
34:04
Night Eyes, two government agents were on a stakeout
34:07
and became involved in a UFO abduction during
34:09
early morning hours. Linda was kidnapped and
34:12
thrown into a car by Richard and Dan. Sarah was
34:15
kidnapped and thrown into a van by Derek and
34:18
Merritt. Dan was hospitalized for emotional trauma.
34:21
One of the government agents in Night Eyes was
34:24
hospitalized for emotional trauma. During the
34:26
kidnapping Dan took Linda to a safe house. During
34:29
the kidnapping Derek took Wendy to a safe house.
34:32
I think her name just changed. The safe house
34:34
Linda visited was on the beach. In Night Eyes,
34:37
one safe house was on the beach. Before her kidnapping,
34:40
Linda contacted Bud Hopkins about her abduction.
34:43
Before her kidnapping, Wendy contacted Charles
34:46
Edward Starr about her abduction. It does go
34:49
on but I'm going to just leave that for your
34:52
consideration there that it's almost matching
34:55
this book. Finally, let's talk about the Netflix
34:58
documentary. Linda Napolitano and the estate
35:02
of late author Bud Hopkins, who wrote the 1997
35:05
book Witness, the true story of the Brooklyn
35:08
Bridge abduction, have sued Netflix for damages
35:11
and asked a judge to halt the release of the
35:13
Manhattan alien abduction, expected to hit the
35:16
streamer October 30th. Napolitano and Hopkins'
35:20
estate filed suit on Monday against Netflix,
35:23
Top Hat Productions, several people involved
35:26
in the docuseries production, and the estate
35:28
of Carol Rainey, Hopkins' late ex -wife, who
35:31
is featured in the documentary. The Netflix docuseries
35:34
seems to include several participants, including
35:36
Rainey, who pushed back Napolitano's claim she
35:40
was abducted, and one unnamed participant is
35:43
quoted in the trailer as saying she was pulling
35:46
the wool over Bud's eyes during the book writing
35:48
process. The complaint alleges Netflix allowed
35:51
Rainey to play a prominent part in the docuseries
35:54
as an expert skeptic in the field when she was
35:57
instead allegedly an embittered alcoholic ex
36:01
-wife hell -bent on revenge against her husband
36:03
who cast both hopkins and napolitano in negative
36:07
light napolitano said she agreed to have her
36:10
story portrayed by netflix after she was promised
36:12
only one interview with rainey would be used
36:15
and that the true story of her abduction would
36:17
finally be presented but was instead blindsided
36:21
by a screening of the series in September. Napolitano
36:24
claims the show sets her up as a villain for
36:26
purposes of controversy and conflict, defames
36:30
her persona and character and that the Manhattan
36:33
alien abduction will destroy her reputation as
36:36
an honest and decent person. Netflix has not
36:39
responded to the lawsuit in court as of Tuesday
36:42
afternoon and did not immediately respond to
36:45
Forbes' request for comment. That came from Forbes.
36:47
It's going to be located in the episode notes.
36:50
And that's the end of my three -part Manhattan
36:54
abduction Journey to the Fringe series dedicated
36:58
to Michael. Okay. So. So basically where we're
37:02
at is she definitely made the whole thing up,
37:04
but we have to wait for the lawsuit to come out
37:07
to confirm that. Yeah. Okay, just making sure
37:12
we're all on the same page. Yeah, there's a lot
37:15
going on for good alien lawsuits in the world
37:17
right now. We got Corey Goode. There really is.
37:19
I think we just need to do a roundup of UFO lawsuits
37:22
in the next little while. That would be a great
37:25
episode. Yeah, I think we got a whole, as we
37:28
do in most episodes that we don't write down,
37:30
got a lot of juicy episode ideas coming out or
37:35
written down, being written down, being thought
37:37
about. being put out into the world definitely
37:41
thought about i don't know if any action's been
37:44
taken from there but man we have so many good
37:46
episode ideas in the ether somewhere yeah so
37:51
what do you what do you think what do you think
37:53
overall oh i think it's it definitely sounds
37:56
like a not a real case but yeah i definitely
37:58
it's one of those ones where i vaguely have heard
38:00
that one before and i'm kind of like In the first
38:03
episode, I kind of just followed it like instinctively.
38:06
Like, yeah, yeah, this is the story. I've heard
38:08
this part. Not paying too much attention. And
38:11
as you're getting into the other guys, I wasn't
38:13
paying too much attention. to the specificities
38:17
and then suddenly you're like yeah no it makes
38:19
total sense that she made the whole thing up
38:22
i know and i'm totally on par with you like i
38:25
recognize the story it wasn't until i actually
38:28
started sitting down to write the episode that
38:30
i was like holy shit there is some blaring red
38:32
flames going on here and that's just like every
38:35
time we sit down for one of those like oh this
38:38
will be a fun episode it's like nope whole thing's
38:41
fucking made up I had a great time putting this
38:45
together and I was like, this is just full of
38:47
gems and I'm going to get Taylor to read this.
38:50
Here's a script. And then I sent it to you so
38:53
that you can anticipate having a script on an
38:56
episode that I put together. And yeah, that's
38:59
where we are now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you
39:03
for that, Chelsea. And with that, I have been
39:05
Taylor here with Chelsea. We are Journey to the
39:08
Fringe. Thank you all for listening and we'll
39:09
see you next week. Bye. Thank you for listening
39:13
to Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what
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39:42
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39:44
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39:49
see you in the next episode