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Authenticity Trap, Opinion · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:03
My name is Ryan. This is my Coho Zongjin.
0:05
Hello. Hello.
0:07
Who also goes by Sam and we're the Co founders of Sanko Matcha
0:10
products. Yeah, we launched this podcast
0:12
to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories
0:15
and interview experts. And today Ryan and I are going
0:20
to have a conversation on the topic, The Trap of Authenticity.
0:25
Yes, the authenticity trap, which we feel quite strongly
0:29
about because authenticity is such a prevalent word.
0:32
I mean, you know, it can come in various forms from traditional
0:35
heritage. Authentic words like this get
0:39
thrown around in tea marketing all the time and there are many
0:42
different problems by classifying practices, tea
0:47
brands, drinks, beverages, taste in this manner.
0:52
And we wanted to break down some of the problem areas that we see
0:56
with the use of such words. And we certainly don't want to
1:00
be the police of which of your words you should use and not.
1:03
But I think it is beyond semantics.
1:05
I think the choice of words really can have a primary
1:10
outcome that is really negative and has some really bad negative
1:14
externalities or even secondary or tertiary.
1:17
And we wanted to work through some of these.
1:19
And this episode in a lot of ways is Part 2 of what we
1:22
recorded. What is authentic matcha, an
1:24
opinion piece. And so if you haven't listened
1:25
to that, you can listen to that for more context.
1:27
But one of the problems with the word authentic is it can mean
1:31
entirely different things to different people in different
1:35
contexts. You could have someone at very
1:38
basic level be telling a friend like, hey, this cafe around the
1:41
corner, they're using a Chasen and a real tea bowl.
1:45
They're whisking matcha authentically.
1:47
They have preparing it properly. It could be that this very basic
1:51
definition. And on the other hand, you could
1:54
have an ersenge practitioner correct another beginning
1:58
student saying that the the direction that you turned your
2:02
bowl before you were about to consume it was wrong.
2:06
That's not the authentic way that we do it.
2:08
In the Orasenke tradition. You know, we do a clockwise
2:11
versus counterclockwise, or it's a traditional difference between
2:15
Orasenke and a Motasenke, for example.
2:17
So in that context, it means something incredibly specific.
2:21
So when that word gets thrown around, it can have very
2:25
different meanings or different contexts.
2:27
And what is authentic is is so broad and can be misinterpreted
2:32
so easily that it could be used to police other people.
2:35
Yeah, it's, it's problematic because you know, the the word
2:42
authenticity doesn't just exist in the word of T, it exist in
2:48
very wide range of other contexts, which makes it super
2:52
powerful because people didn't necessarily just learn it from
2:56
T, they learned it from everywhere, like from culinary,
3:01
from literature, from art, from all sorts of contexts.
3:06
That's why this makes the word authenticity extremely powerful,
3:12
and it makes the inertia of people arguing with the
3:17
accusations of not being authentic so hard, so difficult.
3:21
Yeah, it's quite shameful, someone saying that you're not
3:25
doing something authentically. It carries.
3:30
They're basically saying you're doing it wrong in whatsoever
3:33
context that they think it's right.
3:36
No, it's, it's terrible and it has the weight of everything
3:40
behind it and all the cultural connotations.
3:44
To do something inauthentic in the world of matcha, in the
3:47
world of tea ceremony or tea preparation, is to defile Japan
3:52
itself because tea is so linked to that culture.
3:56
So it it, it's such a heavy use term and a commonly used term in
4:01
a negative way that I think make some people feel like they have
4:06
the license to critique others practice.
4:09
It's easy to call something inauthentic.
4:12
And it's very. Unfair standard.
4:14
Yeah, essentially, right. Like you are not calling someone
4:17
out because you think it's wrong.
4:20
You are essentially calling someone out because you are.
4:24
You think that the people or the culture they're representing,
4:28
the very context that you are doing, think you are doing it
4:32
wrong. That's the implication of you
4:34
are not doing it authentically. You're speaking for other people
4:38
or on behalf of something. That's.
4:42
Something larger than yourself. Yeah, that's why the weight is
4:45
so strong. And who gave you the authority
4:49
to talk and police based on Japanese?
4:51
And you frequently don't hear it from Japanese people going
4:56
around accusing, you know, some Western cafe that really
5:00
specializes in coffee of whisking matcha unauthentically.
5:05
It's too easily used as this weapon of shame.
5:08
I think, you know, for some percentage of people, it
5:11
probably prevents them from doing certain things.
5:15
And I'll use a really kind of ridiculous example.
5:18
In the United States, there was a quote UN quote innovation that
5:22
unmaki on sushi combining raw salmon with Philadelphia cream
5:27
cheese. They call it a Philadelphia
5:29
roll. And let's say that that's your
5:31
favorite maki. It's your favorite role.
5:34
You grew up in the States. You happened, this happened to
5:37
be your first exposure to sushi. You grew up with it.
5:40
You know, it's not authentic. And you're with your snobby
5:42
friends and you might apologize and say like, you know, you go
5:47
out for lunch and you say, I'm ordering the maki role.
5:49
I know it's not authentic, but I like it anyway.
5:53
This is these are flavors I grew up with.
5:55
This is a product that I like and it's an indulgence for me.
5:58
But they feel shame in that answer, and I think we can all
6:02
relate to that, maybe not in that particular example, but in
6:06
other facets of our matcha journey and the way we do things
6:09
or the way we approach other things as well.
6:12
And it's a fear of shame. So people using authenticity as
6:17
this weapon, going around dictating to other people how
6:21
another group of people that's larger than themselves would be
6:25
judging whatever it is that they're doing, it's they're
6:27
casting some sort of judgment, which is a horrible trap that is
6:31
really just unproductive. Like, what's your goal in saying
6:36
that? Frequently the judgment is
6:38
illusional. You're not actually being
6:40
judged, but it's the fear of being judged or the illusion of
6:44
thinking someone judging you or assessing your behavior that's
6:49
not complying with the norm. I think that's that's the
6:53
difficulty we're facing here. And that's the silent harm,
6:57
right? It's the harm of inaction.
7:00
What are tea ceremony practitioners, matcha lovers,
7:03
cafe owners out there not doing because of fear of shame or
7:09
being called inauthentic? Yeah.
7:12
But on the other hand, Ryan, people who are I guess
7:16
vulnerable to be trapped in this authenticity trap are usually
7:22
people that actually respect culture and has the intention to
7:27
learn about another culture. And I think, you know, like for
7:30
for people that doesn't really care, they probably really don't
7:34
care, hence they won't be trapped.
7:36
And I think this is particularly hard because the very reason
7:40
that people are getting trapped in the 1st place is because a
7:45
continuation of the culture for practice.
7:48
People frequently tend to want to stay relevant, right?
7:52
Innovation is not something that is done out of the blue and to
7:58
really, you know, free yourself from the mindset of, you know,
8:02
being trapped or being entangled or being hindered by a tradition
8:09
or by something that's, you know, of some sort of
8:13
authenticity practice. I think it's very hard.
8:16
How do you balance that? How do you balance innovation
8:20
versus, you know, creating something just basically
8:25
entirely new, the names of something that have already
8:29
exist? Yeah, I think in the world of
8:32
matcha and Japanese tea, there is a horrible contradiction.
8:37
And the contradiction is this is that it's actually very easy to
8:41
stay on an authentic path and have deep understanding of it
8:45
because it's an institutionalized tradition.
8:47
The Japanese tea ceremony in the practice of preparing tea and a
8:51
lot of the surrounding elements are controlled by schools, by
8:55
institutions, or SNK, among many, many others.
8:58
And they can literally define what is and is not authentic or
9:02
traditional or representative of their practice.
9:05
And changes are dictated from the top to top down tradition.
9:09
Typically when we talk about innovation, that's grassroots.
9:13
It's a bottom up approach, it's a folk tradition.
9:16
It's not regulated. There is no official narrative.
9:19
There's not necessarily a strictly codified right or wrong
9:23
way of doing things like there is in Japanese tea ceremony and
9:27
the specialty movement understanding much as a
9:30
specialty product outside of a ceremonial context is exactly
9:34
that. So it's brushing up against
9:37
these very institutionalized traditions.
9:39
So if you lay outside of those institutions, that's most vast
9:44
majority of macho consumers don't even know that irasenke
9:47
and amotosenke exist. They're vaguely aware that maybe
9:52
Japanese tea ceremony is a thing, but other than that, they
9:55
don't even have the context to understand where the right or
9:58
wrong ways of doing things are coming from and who are who are
10:02
those standard bearers. And the contradiction 2 is that
10:08
it's so matcha is so ingrained in the mind of the rest of the
10:13
world as so distinctly Japanese. And Japanese in this actually
10:18
after the defeat of Japan in World War 2 under the American
10:22
occupation, when the government declared Japan was going to be a
10:25
country of culture. And that was what they wanted to
10:28
solidify being known as. And you know, they look
10:32
backwards at different traditions that they could
10:34
promote as being distinctively Japanese.
10:36
And tea ceremony was literally one of the best distillations of
10:40
Japanese Ness. A number of related arts,
10:43
architecture like flower arrangements, like calligraphy,
10:47
like a lacquer making ceramics, It's a really deep history.
10:51
And it's not just a spectator sport like sumo, which actually
10:54
predates chanoyu in Japan, which is a spectator sport.
10:59
It's a participatory sport. So it's very uniquely Japanese.
11:03
And to have a grassroots foreign LED movement as matcha as a
11:09
specialty product is kind of like a counter revolution to
11:14
Japan and Japanese in this and this very top down.
11:18
So it's a weird contradiction because to have matcha be a
11:22
specialty product brushes directly against these tightly
11:27
controlled narratives around what is and is not authentic.
11:30
And to what degree one matters to the other.
11:34
It's really hard to tell. Like, to what degree does a
11:37
random matcha consumer that's buying Ouika matcha or Rockies
11:41
matcha or Kettle matcha air that they should turn their bowl
11:45
counterclockwise or clockwise based on that tradition, right?
11:49
Like, does it matter that that's how they're not?
11:52
Whether or not they're drinking it authentically, that move
11:54
makes no difference on the taste of the tea.
11:56
Yeah, that's true. It's, it's an interesting
12:01
situation because in this case, I think we frequently make the
12:04
mistake to blur the line between Channel U and matcha.
12:08
And we're talking about Channel U, we're talking about
12:11
traditions, we're talking about matcha, but they're really
12:15
different things. Matcha is really just a
12:18
component in Channel U, and it's frequently not even the
12:22
spotlight, not even the center of the gathering.
12:26
Sometimes the theme is really focusing on the calligraphy or
12:30
focusing on the special piece, like a ceramic piece being used
12:35
in the tea gathering, but not the tea itself.
12:38
And right now outside of the ceremonial context, we lift Mata
12:42
out from it and applying onto other usage contacts.
12:47
And in this case, in those cases, matcha is the spotlight,
12:52
is the center of the room. You are paying attention to, you
12:57
know, the flavor and the effect of matcha on you and the taste
13:02
and if you like it or not like it, that that's really all you
13:05
care about when you use matcha in those contexts.
13:08
And accusing the usage of matcha in those contexts in the names,
13:14
in the names of channel U or violating Channel U tradition, I
13:17
think it's ridiculous. It doesn't necessarily really
13:21
relate to the usage of, you know, using your, your, your
13:27
matcha with sparkling water or a cold brewing your matcha or
13:31
different, you know, mixture with matcha so that you want to
13:36
make it tastier. Like these are completely
13:39
irrelevant. And I think that's the
13:42
interesting thing right here. Yeah, Zhongjun, can you think of
13:45
a case where it's ever productive to call someone out
13:49
for being inauthentic or doing something not authentically in
13:53
the world of Matcha I? Think so like after writing this
13:56
piece and also, you know, having to discuss with you in the
14:01
podcast, I think people should really drop the usage of
14:05
authenticity authentic. It really does not necessarily
14:09
have a positive implication in any ways in any kind of usage.
14:14
You are putting yourself in a top down position judging other
14:18
people's behavior, whether or not it's a positive or negative.
14:21
I don't think it's not a word that should be used.
14:24
I mean it will be hard to not use those words in your daily
14:27
life, but I think at least for me, I tend to really reduce the
14:32
tendency of use this word. I can think of 1 area where it
14:36
might be useful. And if that someone is blatantly
14:40
ripping off the traditions of tea ceremony for money to
14:45
benefit off of someone else's culture.
14:48
Someone who's charging $1000 for tea ceremony demonstration that
14:53
took five lessons and is completely butchering it, right.
14:57
That is a disgrace then and should be called out.
15:01
Is really not doing things authentically, nor are they
15:05
probably even allowed to represent Oresenke.
15:08
There's a lot of rules in Japanese tea ceremony at the
15:11
point and the circumstances in which any of the practitioners
15:15
are allowed to represent the institution, Yeah.
15:19
Then this person is. It's just wrong.
15:22
It's cultural appropriation. It's cultural appropriation,
15:25
it's cultural capitalization. It's this person is a thief.
15:30
But yeah, I, I agree, but, you know, but in other contexts, I,
15:35
I don't think you should really use the word authenticity or
15:40
authentic or even have the mindset or mentality of
15:46
assessing yourself. If I'm doing this authentically,
15:49
I think it's really a mental cage.
15:52
It's not only a weapon that you can use to accuse or attack
15:57
other people, but it itself is also a cage, the forbidden one
16:02
to make any innovation or make any changes or make any
16:06
improvements that goes against a traditional practice or
16:11
traditionally in a sense that you know, this is how people
16:13
have been doing things in the past.
16:16
It's not even a very long tradition in this case, right?
16:19
Like Channel Yu and the modern days value and practices of
16:23
Channel Yu or much of traditions.
16:26
It's actually fairly young compared to the long history of
16:29
tea. And you know, ever since tea got
16:32
introduced into Japan by the monk SI during Song dynasty that
16:38
already violate the tradition of Mocha in China to begin with.
16:42
You know, for for anyone that has the past to call someone
16:46
out, you know, not authentic. I think the Song dynasty Chinese
16:50
will have the ultimate path. But you know, that's already a
16:56
violation. But So what?
16:59
Tea is tasty. Tea has a phenomenal effect on
17:03
health and people's mind. And that's why, you know, the
17:06
Japanese people love it. Back in the days, then tea was
17:11
grown in Japan, but not in the manner of how we drink matcha
17:16
today. Like back in the days, you don't
17:18
have shade grown, you do not have all sorts of cultivars that
17:22
people have developed today. And it was really until the
17:27
Industrial revolution and the introduction of modern biology
17:30
that people start to be able to breed different cultivars, start
17:34
to be able to understand, you know, different farming practice
17:37
to the taste of matcha. And it really wasn't until the
17:42
modern days that you know, with, you know, like all these farming
17:45
equipments and all of these advancement in technology that
17:49
regular people like you and I can enjoy matcha on daily basis.
17:54
It's still expensive, but not as expensive as before.
17:58
So you know, like when, when you are accusing someone not doing
18:04
matcha or making matcha or drinking matcha authentically,
18:07
like what exactly are you standing?
18:11
Four, Are you standing? Are you envision yourself as the
18:16
word words back in the days that have, you know, 200 servants
18:22
serving him to drink matcha? Or are you envisioning yourself
18:26
being, you know, the Senor Liqiu himself, you know, doing matcha
18:32
in the most ceremonial way? Or are you envisioning yourself
18:37
being the monk aside, you know, just spreading the gospel of
18:42
this beautiful green leaves? Like, who are you exactly
18:45
representing to accuse someone for not doing things
18:48
authentically? I think why?
18:50
And for who? Yeah.
18:52
Yeah, why and for who and for what good.
18:54
It's frequently it's really just a showed off, a demonstration
18:59
of, you know, I have more knowledge or I have more
19:02
experience than you and it doesn't really bring anything
19:05
positive to the. Conversation, I mean, even
19:07
around the idea of what isn't, isn't authentic matcha from a
19:11
milling perspective is really difficult to define.
19:15
You know, something that we talked about in the last one,
19:17
what is authentic matcha? And how the idea of being
19:20
authentic is to be true to yourself.
19:22
But the subject of self can change, right?
19:26
As I said, you know, authenticity can mean different
19:29
things to different people in different contexts.
19:32
So talking about just matcha milling, you know, if you talk
19:35
to people 150 years ago, what is authentically milk matcha, it
19:40
was people at home with servants with their own little ishiyusu
19:46
milling it and they were buying tensha as a product that was
19:50
authentically milled matcha. You didn't buy matcha, you
19:52
bought tensha and then one of your servants milled it for you
19:56
and put it very carefully in your natsume for you to prepare
19:59
for you and your friends. Where today, you know, people
20:02
are using industrial ishiusu, much larger format, much larger
20:07
than they were ever using in the past.
20:10
That's an innovation. And now you have people saying
20:12
that it's not even authentic matcha and this it comes from an
20:15
industrial Ishiusu. Which, you know, would your
20:18
answer would have been very different 150 years ago.
20:21
And now you even have things like ball mills or beef mills,
20:25
which can do much higher volume product.
20:28
You know that a lot of that product actually tastes
20:30
perfectly fine. And it's the only reason why
20:34
most people can afford matcha. It's the only reason why it can
20:38
be in every Starbucks in the world for new consumers to try
20:42
it for the first time. And to call that inauthentic is
20:46
a little a little bit disingenuous.
20:48
It's not serving anybody because everything is authentic
20:51
depending on the lens that you're looking through or if you
20:54
flip the context or the time period.
20:58
Yeah, it's it's very relative and for people.
21:01
And the relative, it's never communicated the perspective.
21:05
The relative perspective is very rarely communicated.
21:09
And it's almost always used to say what I'm doing is better
21:12
than what you have or what this other person doing.
21:16
Yeah, that's that's really the implication of.
21:20
It's used as a weapon. Yeah, using the word
21:22
authenticity. Like even if I'm telling you
21:26
that oh, you are doing this very authentically as a compliment,
21:34
it doesn't really contribute any good either either.
21:37
You are vastly ignorant or you are, you know, acknowledging
21:44
someone based off of your own experience.
21:47
You know, so that you to demonstrate that you qualify to
21:50
access other people's practice. You know, it never dawned on me
21:55
of the arrogance of using authenticity as a compliment
22:00
because it automatic. The implicit indicator is I have
22:04
more knowledge or context than you to call you authentic.
22:08
Yeah, to make that judgment on behalf of whatever reference
22:12
point I'm referring to, whether or not it's the ceremony or some
22:17
ancient cultivation practice. Yeah, yeah.
22:19
I think to revert back to your previous question, like in what
22:23
context does authenticity or authentic, the word authentic
22:27
appropriate? I think it's it needs to be very
22:30
very context specific. Like you are doing authentic or
22:35
Mota Senke tea ceremony practice, you are doing
22:39
authentic uji proper tea farming.
22:43
Although even that is probably a little bit vague because farming
22:46
practice in Japan also change all the time.
22:50
Or you really broaden the aperture but you're defining the
22:53
point. Like if you're using a Chasen to
22:57
whisk matcha, it is a reasonably accurate statement to say that's
23:01
how they whisk matcha authentically in Japan.
23:03
Almost everyone in Japan is using a Chasen.
23:06
Like that is 1/2 decent statement if you define it what
23:10
the relative the subject of authenticity.
23:13
It's not saying much, but you know, it's less harmful.
23:17
Yeah. Or if the practice is very, very
23:21
much regulated by a authority or a institution, like a certain
23:28
school of Channelview, I think then you can use the word
23:31
authenticity. Yeah.
23:33
Because it's predefined, it's very well regulated and
23:36
codified. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:39
But even for, you know, for, for, for chess and for for tea.
23:43
Whisk you slowly will see people even inside of Japan, you know,
23:49
using other mechanisms to whisk tea or you know, they attach the
23:54
Chasen onto some sort of a vibrator to increase the
23:57
efficiency in modern Cafe. You know this doesn't
24:00
necessarily doing any harm to the tea you drink.
24:04
I don't think so, right? If froth the tea very perfectly
24:08
and it produce a very delicious bowl of matcha or matcha latte.
24:11
If the gold is to create a good tasting bold of matcha for you,
24:17
for the consumers, I think any practice should be welcomed and
24:22
you should be encouraged and it should not be accused of
24:26
violating a tradition. Yeah.
24:29
I totally agree. Yeah, I mean this mindset of
24:34
innovation even exist within Channel U.
24:37
Like every generation of Yamoto or the head of the house are
24:41
allowed to make one change, you know, based on their
24:45
understanding. So it you know like Channel U is
24:48
not anti change either. It changed very slowly, but it's
24:52
changing too. So I think, you know, like being
24:56
or calling someone or using the word authenticity.
25:00
Really it's treating a culture or practice as a static.
25:04
It's taking a snapshot of a culture and wanted to remain the
25:10
same way forever. It's really a demonstration of
25:14
someone not want to learn more or not want to progress further
25:19
and want to use a certain reservoir of knowledge or
25:23
experience as the ultimate truth.
25:26
And I think that's very harmful, yeah.
25:29
Oh, I agree. It it, it completely reduces the
25:32
idea that these things change over the time and that the most
25:36
authentic version of Orasanke or Motosanke or of any of these
25:40
institutions is literally the most up to date version.
25:43
Important point. You know, Sam, I, I just thought
25:45
of a, a different point. So, so far we've discussed that
25:49
authenticity can be used as a license to police others.
25:53
It can be used as a weapon, but I also think it can be used as a
25:57
shield where it is incredibly easy.
26:01
Source of credibility for a new matcha brand.
26:04
Imagine you're a new matcha brand introducing, you know,
26:07
premium matcha, specialty matcha, whatever you want to
26:10
call it to your country for the first time.
26:13
Or you're a very early player and you say I've sourced the
26:16
most authentic matcha from Japan.
26:18
It's like the easiest pillar for brand building and credibility.
26:23
That also really, what exactly does that mean to someone who
26:28
has very little context? To me it just sounds like more
26:32
top down positioning. I am telling you what is good
26:35
and I'm doing it by saying I have judged all of these matches
26:39
in the world. I have selected this one for my
26:42
brand because it's the most authentic and probably the
26:46
reference point is for the country of Japan.
26:49
So to not like this product is to not like this deep rooted
26:53
tradition in Japan that all of these Japanese people like and
26:57
appreciate. It's deflecting blame if you
27:02
don't like the product. Yeah, it's in either context,
27:07
you are trying to bring in a larger group of people behind
27:11
you to endorse your practice. So I think it's, it's
27:16
understandable to to certain extent to see people do so.
27:19
But on the other hand, you know, it's, it really doesn't help the
27:24
consumer to educate themselves or have any opinions on the very
27:29
product that they are buying and they are consuming.
27:31
The interesting point here is that the practice is trying to
27:35
inflicting consumer guilt. It's almost a weight of
27:39
gaslighting. I don't like your product.
27:42
It's not because of the product is bad.
27:44
It's because I don't understand enough.
27:46
I think that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:47
It's playing in people's ignorance, Yeah.
27:50
It's trying to incept this mentality that you know you are
27:54
offloading the responsibility towards consumers, not you know.
27:59
I mean, it's a way of protecting yourself just like any Shield
28:02
does. I mean, let's give a very
28:04
tangible example of this. Say you're a new matcha brand.
28:07
Say you ordered, you're brand new.
28:08
You don't exactly know how much people are going to order yet.
28:11
Let's say you order 20 kilos of matcha, which is a pretty small
28:15
order from Japan, and it gets stuck in customs and it sits in
28:19
a hot warehouse for months. Product finally arrives to you
28:23
and you need to sell it. You have no choice.
28:25
You have no other money. This is the product you need to
28:27
move it and you're claiming that it's authentic matcha from multi
28:31
generational farmers in Japan. And if someone doesn't like it,
28:35
authenticity is a fantastic shield to put in front of that
28:39
product. No one would know and no one is
28:43
blaming you, the vendor for keeping old inventory that's
28:47
degraded, right? It has this big golden stamp of
28:51
approval for most people that, oh, it's authentic matcha.
28:55
So people in Japan drink. It's made by really by people
28:58
who really know what they're doing.
28:59
And in that case, it's a shield with spikes in the back.
29:02
And they're not harming the brand necessarily, but might be
29:05
harming the reputation of the whole industry where either
29:08
people are or consumers are blaming themselves.
29:12
I don't understand this enough. I don't have the context or
29:15
ability to appreciate this. I'm the problem, not the fact
29:19
that that product sat and degraded for months.
29:22
It's a very effective one because especially for consumers
29:26
who have experienced the other specialty products on you know,
29:31
for example like poor tea or peated eyelid Scotch, they are
29:35
usually a acquired taste like for beginners.
29:39
It's very natural or comment to not like the product in the
29:43
first place. And the, you know, the
29:46
preference is cultivated and it's slow.
29:49
It happens later with, you know, multiple times of exposure.
29:53
So this is a very effective shield because, you know, people
29:57
with formative experience like that would naturally think that
30:01
maybe I'm just not understanding it enough.
30:04
And let me try one more time and one more time and with some
30:09
other contacts, maybe eventually I will understand.
30:11
It's a it's, it's probably true in some context, like if if you
30:15
know this person or this vendor is indeed trusting, you know,
30:20
high quality matcha from a multi generation house, but it's just
30:26
because you know, they, they are really into this, you know,
30:29
ultra intensity umaminess in their teeth, you know, like
30:35
beginners. They might not like, you know,
30:37
that very, you know, maritime flavor in the tea, but you know,
30:41
later on they might like it. So it's, it can be true in some
30:45
certain context, but it can also be true that just as you
30:48
described, Ryan, like this tea has sitting in the warehouse for
30:52
literally 2 months and it's stelled and the color is turning
30:56
yellow, turning grayish and it's just not good tea anymore.
31:00
But for a beginner who just got into the word of like, and
31:05
especially when they have a very respectful, humble mindset,
31:10
wanted to, you know, learn more like, this will be very
31:13
discouraging and very harmful. Yeah, very harmful and a
31:20
terrible trap that, you know, most tea companies, including
31:24
ourselves, I mean, we've used the word authentic that, you
31:28
know, we all fall into. So it's, it's important to be
31:31
mindful of that. And there's this whole counter
31:34
movement around not using the word authentic, especially
31:37
within the context of Asian food products in the US, because this
31:43
idea of authenticity means so many things to so many different
31:46
people in so many different contexts.
31:49
A lot of the more modern brands have gone away with this term.
31:53
And there's a really interesting study that's referenced by a lot
31:56
of people who've dropped this term.
31:58
Brands like fly by Jings, brands like Amsam, brands like Wen
32:02
Coffee Company, for example, who are trying to like establish a
32:06
better Vietnamese coffee as a category.
32:09
And that Robusta can actually be good is apparently someone did a
32:14
study of like Yelp reviews of ethnic restaurants in New York
32:18
City. And whenever the word
32:20
authenticity was used within the context of like a Western
32:27
restaurant, like a French or Italian restaurant, it almost
32:31
always was overwhelmingly positive.
32:34
And whenever it was used for an Asian restaurant, like a Chinese
32:38
restaurant or a Thai restaurant, it was overwhelmingly negative
32:45
of these people casting judgment on the authenticity of that
32:48
cuisine and how a lot of Western cuisines like Italian food or
32:56
French fruit food have way much more cultural cachet and liberty
33:02
and flexibility to innovate. You know, someone, some French
33:06
chef doing an innovative technique that might not be
33:09
exactly what they were doing 50 years ago gets applauded.
33:13
Whereas the same chef that just happens to be from a different
33:16
country and has different colored skin is doing the same
33:19
thing, gets criticized for being not authentic.
33:23
And so there's also almost a racist component to some of this
33:27
as well by certain people calling other people out for
33:31
being inauthentic and this double standard, especially when
33:34
the within the context of Asian food.
33:37
Yeah, it's very interesting because I guess it's a natural
33:41
difficulty of doing anythings outside of the country of origin
33:46
or the place of origin of a a culture or a practice.
33:50
Because, you know, the one of the implications of authenticity
33:54
is that there is a geographic, usually a geographic location of
34:00
where the practice begins. And by doing the practice
34:05
outside of the geographic location naturally will let
34:09
people to think or to judge if you are doing it authentic or
34:13
not authentic. So I think that's a very, I
34:16
would say to some extent inevitable difficulty that
34:19
people will encounter of doing anything or practicing anything
34:25
that does have a geographic origin.
34:27
Yeah, and. You know, within the context of
34:31
matcha, it's overwhelmingly negative.
34:34
This implications of where it's where something is inauthentic,
34:40
where is like in any western context, seeing innovation is
34:44
interesting and it's very unfair, especially in matcha
34:47
that it's almost always a negative thing.
34:49
Which actually brings me to my 4th analogy around the around
34:55
the authenticity trap. And that authenticity can be
34:58
used as a muzzle. So where people will purposely
35:03
try not to innovate or do anything interesting out of
35:07
fears of being called not authentic.
35:11
It's some self-imposed restriction of agency where it's
35:15
much more simple to say, look, I'm sourcing these authentic
35:18
things from these authentic people.
35:21
Like it or hate it, if you cast judgement on it, you're casting
35:24
judgement not just on this product or my brand, but on all
35:27
of Japan or all of the implications of what
35:30
authenticity means to you. And it prevents probably a lot
35:34
of innovation from happening where people are saying, who am
35:38
I to make any changes? I'm not the expert.
35:41
Why would I blend matcha for my customers even though I could
35:45
probably reach a profile that they would like more?
35:48
Who am I to whisk matcha with sparkling water?
35:51
That's not how they do it in Japan.
35:52
That's not what I want to promote.
35:54
And you lead into these, you kind of lean back a bit and you
35:58
remove agency to do some very so it could be interesting and
36:02
innovative changes. Like you don't have people in
36:04
specialty coffee thinking about that.
36:07
They're not changing what they're doing based on whether
36:09
or not someone's judging them for being authentic.
36:12
We don't think that way in chocolate making.
36:14
We don't even think that way in wine, right?
36:16
There's people doing all sorts of interesting things around
36:19
natural fermentations and carbonic maceration.
36:23
Like there's all these interesting components that
36:26
people can do because they're not chained and muzzled by this
36:31
restriction in this cage of authenticity.
36:35
Yeah. It's very interesting because
36:38
when you see all the other product categories that you just
36:42
talking about, you don't necessarily see a existence of
36:47
something like Channel U in those product category,
36:50
something so powerful and so intertwined with a nation or a
36:56
culture or group of people race. I think that's that's
37:01
interesting observation from my end.
37:04
So that's why Matcha is particularly special in this
37:07
case. If we want the specialty matcha
37:09
movement to become successful, we need to stop utilizing or
37:13
falling into this authenticity trap.
37:15
It is something incredibly different than tea ceremony and
37:19
tradition and what a lot of people in a lot of contexts
37:23
would consider quote UN quote authentic matcha.
37:26
But it's actually harmful to these tea ceremony institutions
37:30
and the legacy that is matcha matcha and Chana Yu is a dying.
37:35
Practitioners are dying year after year after year, and fewer
37:38
people want to become practitioners.
37:41
If you look at like the statistics of who's consuming
37:43
tea in Japan, I think it's something like 15% of young
37:47
people consume tea regularly, and it's something like 70% of
37:51
like 70 and 80 year olds. You have this huge demographic
37:55
problem where there's this deficit of consumers who are
37:59
young who are going to take it over.
38:01
So for matcha to survive as an art, not only does it need to
38:04
internationalize, but you need to have a new group of
38:07
practitioners interested in it. And it's much easier to attract
38:12
new consumers to to a ceremonial practice if they were already
38:16
interested in matcha in the 1st place.
38:19
So if we stop going around and using authenticity as a license
38:23
to police, as a weapon, as a shield and as a muzzle, perhaps
38:27
matcha as a specialty product can become more successful, get
38:31
more people consuming it in a specialty context in a cafe or
38:35
at home. And then naturally a subgroup of
38:38
those people might become interested in going down the
38:42
rabbit hole that is the traditional ceremonial art of
38:46
tea ceremony and quote, UN quote authentic practices like having
38:51
it being in every specialty matcha shop where it's being
38:54
represented in an interesting way, in a way that consumers are
38:59
primed to appreciate. Like talking about cultivar,
39:02
talking about the farmer, talking about cultivation
39:04
methods, explaining the difference between handpicked
39:07
and machine picked or different shading styles.
39:10
All of these rich and interesting specialty components
39:13
can be in service to what we all think of as authentic matcha
39:18
culture. That's totally true.
39:20
I mean, this is really good for everybody, like spreading the
39:24
awareness of matcha. And that will inevitably be a
39:27
gateway for people to want to learn more about matcha and to,
39:32
you know, and they can take their own path.
39:34
Following the tradition. Ceremonial practice of matcha is
39:38
certainly one way at preventing people.
39:41
But encouraging more people to learn more about Japan, learn
39:45
more about matcha, I think it's it's helpful for everybody.
39:49
Yeah. Only brings more awareness.
39:51
It's the opposite of inclusive. These people going around saying
39:55
you're not authentic, that's saying you're not one of us.
39:58
You don't deserve to be here. There's so many implicit
40:02
messages. In that attack that it's, it's
40:06
doing way more harm than good. They're not, especially for
40:09
people who are doing this entirely outside of the
40:13
ceremonial context. It's, it's horrible.
40:16
It's really upsetting to see and it's really a hindrance on
40:19
growth. And I think it's a huge trap
40:21
that we are all guilty of falling into and we need to
40:24
rethink this framework, I think. Totally agree.
40:27
Totally agree. I think we should really embrace
40:31
ourselves into the specialty movement and trying to not think
40:35
about matcha in the lens of it being a product from Japan or a
40:41
product from a ceremony. It needs to be really set free.
40:46
It needs to be on its own. And if we want to even want to
40:52
even discuss anything that's related to the practice or the
40:58
tradition of matcha itself, it really should be the farming
41:01
practice or the processing or the manufacturer practices.
41:05
It should not be practices related to how matcha has been
41:10
consumed. I think that's one aspect of
41:15
Matcha that has been so flexible and so dynamic and so non static
41:24
even within Japan that you know, any discussion of it being
41:30
consumed in the right way. So it's, it's really, it's
41:36
really ridiculous to me. I think looking to the farmers
41:39
and production practices is it's more interesting because you
41:42
know get concentrating interest in those things.
41:46
Default brings more people into the specialty matcha movement
41:50
because all the traditional players who focus on quote UN
41:54
quote authentically crafted matcha are don't have
41:57
transparent labels and don't talk about any of the things
42:01
that lead to flavor variation within the product, which is
42:04
what the vast majority of consumers care about.
42:08
If you have 3 cans of matcha where you cannot see what's
42:12
inside, and one's $20, one's $40, and one's $60.00, you care
42:17
a whole lot that the $60.00 one tastes better than the $20 one.
42:21
That's part of what you're paying for, and if it doesn't,
42:25
you're probably not going to buy that $60.00 one again.
42:28
And understanding how and why that's the case are the
42:34
conditions that we need for a thriving specialty market so
42:37
that people can make those predictions.
42:39
And these concepts of authenticity are really a
42:41
distraction and a never ending look backwards.
42:46
That's not static and the reference point is ambiguous.
42:49
And it can be used as a license to police others, as a weapon,
42:53
as a shield and as a muzzle. It's a very distracting
42:56
conversation for 99.9% of practitioners.
43:01
Maybe it's a productive conversation if you're an
43:04
anthropologist, if you are in the leadership of one of these
43:08
institutions, or a teacher of tea ceremony, or a historian.
43:13
But outside of those contexts, who cares?
43:16
Yep. So I guess I'll advocate our
43:19
advocation here today is stop using the word authenticity or
43:23
authentic instead is what is this matcha will or ask
43:28
yourself, do I like this matcha? And you know that really should
43:32
be it. And you know one grants you
43:34
knowledge more knowledge about the tea itself.
43:38
The others grants you self-assessment of your own
43:40
preference. And that way you can make more
43:44
or better decision for yourself in your journey of drinking more
43:47
matcha in the future. Yeah.
43:49
And actually, I think I have a great summer re reinterpretation
43:52
of what you just said and tell me how right I am.
43:55
It's about looking in, not out. If you're worried about
43:59
authenticity, you're constantly worried about what other people
44:02
think of you or how other people think of the product that you
44:05
just bought or the way that you're preparing it or whatever,
44:09
versus asking yourself, what do I like?
44:12
How do I get the knowledge and context to get more of what I
44:16
like? Why do my preferences change
44:18
over time? Am I doing this the right way
44:21
for me versus in the context of what other people think, no
44:25
matter what that is? Totally agree.
44:28
And I think that's true for the matcha consumer, and I think
44:31
that's true for the matcha business.
44:33
Whether or not you own a cafe, or you own a matcha brand, or
44:36
you're somehow associated with the supply chain, we need to
44:39
start looking more in and less out.
44:41
Especially if the out is this ambiguous thing, which is
44:45
authenticity, which is where far too many people get trapped.
44:48
Yeah, clarity, Ryan, clarity like this is really a 2 ends of
44:52
a spectrum. One is totally objective, the
44:55
other is totally subjective. Yes.
44:58
It is. Yeah, for authenticity.
45:00
You're creating a vague illusion of the ultimate truth.
45:04
But there there are ultimate truth in matcha, right?
45:07
Like what cultivar is this matcha?
45:09
How it was processed, how long has it been shaded, how it was
45:14
milt and these are solid ground truth and they are something
45:19
that's totally objective. And on the other end, do I like
45:23
it? Will I will I be liking, you
45:26
know, this in, you know, some other context and why do I like
45:31
it? What aspect do I like about this
45:33
particular matcha? These are totally subjective
45:35
opinion that's benefiting your own consumption, your own
45:39
enjoyment of this matcha. Yeah.
45:43
I. Couldn't, couldn't agree more.
45:45
It needs to be more focused on on enjoyment and fulfillment,
45:50
whatever that means to you. Yep.
45:53
So. So I guess you know like looping
45:55
it all back to our argument, like stay true to yourself, stay
45:59
true to matcha. I think that is the most
46:01
authentic matcha experience you can get.
46:04
Yes, yes. And I think these are the two
46:07
points on the spectrum that you can state the most true, right,
46:11
Like you have your own true feeling of a product and you
46:16
have the very true facts about this product.
46:20
And I think these are the two ways that you can stay true to
46:24
Matcha. I think that's a perfect note to
46:25
end on any final words. Sam No.
46:28
Drink more matcha and stop calling matcha authentic or not.
46:33
And by the way, this is an opinion piece too.
46:35
So this is our strong opinion, which is loosely held.
46:39
If anyone has any major disagreements or any points that
46:42
we're blind to or not noticing or we'd love to hear from you,
46:46
we'd love to turn this into a discussion.
46:48
We do think it's worth having discussions about the negative
46:52
effects of what largely people would consider to be a positive
46:57
thing, like an authentic practice.
47:00
But really, the most authentic practice is not what other
47:02
people think. It's what what whatever the best
47:07
thing is for you. And you stay true to yourself
47:11
without fear of others casting judgement on you.
47:17
And in turn, you should not cast judgement on others.
47:20
So that's our take. If you enjoyed this podcast,
47:23
please consider sharing with friend or giving us five stars
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on whatever platform you're listening to and we'll see you
47:28
on the next one. See you in the next episode.