Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 495: The Screenwriting Advice Hollywood Writers Actually Use with Ron Peters

Transcript

BPS 495: The Screenwriting Advice Hollywood Writers Actually Use with Ron Peters · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number 495. Assumptions
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: allow the best in life to pass you by. John Sayles.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood, when we
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: really should be working on that next draft. It's the
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: on the kind of project you are, and the goals
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: of the project you are. So we actually break it
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: down by three categories, micro-budget, indie film market, and studio film.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: used to reading tentpole movies when your movie's going to
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: be done for $ 100, 000. And we wanted to focus on
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: that at Bulletproof Script Coverage. Our readers have worked with
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Marvel Studios, CAA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers,
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: The Blacklist, and many, many more. So if you need
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: on over to CoverMyScreenplay.com.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis. Joining me
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: today is Ron Peters. Ron is a screenwriter, story analyst,
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: and editor. He is known for his work on the
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: TV series Luck, and also the movies Defiance, The Wolf
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: of Wall Street, Fury, and the upcoming Now You See
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: Me 2. Ron, thank you very much for joining us today.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Dave, for having me.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: So, Ron, could you give us a little bit about
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: your background and how you got started in writing?
• 2:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I kind of started really young. My mom
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: would bring home these really fancy, hardbound journal notebooks from
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: where she worked. And I would just kind of write
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: and draw on them, unbeknownst to me that they were
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: actually like worth $ 150. And then my mom would get
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: angry at me for coloring and writing stories in them.
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: And then that moved on to somewhere around the age
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: of seven or eight, my mom had a digital camera,
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: which were popular at the time. And you could record
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: 15 seconds of video at most. And so my brother
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: and I would make these little home movies with each
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: shot being no more than 15 seconds. And then from there,
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: I was drawn to the media classes in high school.
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: And I made a couple films while I was in
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: high school and actually had that I wrote and directed
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: and had a kind of partnership with the school, whereas
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: I could miss half of school to go make this movie,
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: which we had gone out and got investors for and
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: then eventually got a small East Coast distribution for and
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: also chose to donate all the profits to the American
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: Cancer Society. So that's kind of how I got started.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: And then that film, my second one of those films,
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: the first one was called Friends of Crime. And the
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: second one was called Joey Rothstein and the Commission. And
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: that second film got me noticed at a film festival.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: And I was lucky enough to get a letter of
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: recommendation from Ed Zwick, the director. And that kind of
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: then started me on my way. And Then I started
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: working on Defiance, which is an Ed Zwick film right
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: after that. And it's just kind of steadily grown from there.
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: And now I'm lucky enough where I'm at the point
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: where I get to travel a lot and be on
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: set for all these much bigger films, these huge studio films.
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: And that's really the best benefit is to be able
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: to see the world and see all these different cultures.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: How were you able to convince the school to let
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: you miss half of school to do the movie, though?
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, did you have to get your parents involved
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: and talk to the principal and something like that?
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't.
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: Think they actually got involved.
• 4:33
  Speaker 5: I was kind of... Honestly, I was kind of very
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: lucky enough where I was a kid. I was kind
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: of very charming. And I kind of used that and
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: in some cases abused it to get what I wanted
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: as far as making these movies. I was just always
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: drawn to it. I was always... something that like, I honestly,
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: my parents really didn't support that decision of, of being
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: a quote unquote artist. Um, there was many fights with
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: my father about it. Um, but it was just something
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: that I was always drawn to. And I was kind
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: of hardheaded in the fact that I wasn't going to
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: let anybody tell me what to do or that I
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: couldn't do something. And, I honestly think I just went
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: down to the principal's office and said, Hey, I'm doing
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: this film. And, uh, a big selling point I remember
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: was the fact that we were donating all the profits
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: to the American cancer society and they used it as
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: like a, uh, I think like an out of work
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: program is something that they called it.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, that's a pretty, that's pretty cool how
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: you were able to, you know, charm your way to
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: do that because when you were telling the story, I
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: could just imagine, uh, somebody pitched that idea nowadays, they'd
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: be like, what? Are you kidding me? So, you know,
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: it's just interesting to see how things have changed. You know,
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: maybe there is, you know, a principal out there who
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: would be, you know, very, what's the word I'm looking for?
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: Very encouraging to students.
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's actually really interesting because when I was in
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: high school, whenever we had like I mean, I love
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: to write, but at the time in high school, I
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: was really attracted to directing and using the camera to
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: tell stories. I mean, I would write them out. I
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: would flush them out, usually through very, very long treatments
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: at the time. They weren't like full-on scripts, except for
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: the two films. But I would always try and barter
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: and negotiate with my teacher. If we had like a
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: project or we had to write a five-page paper on something,
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: I would... I would convince them in many cases that
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: I could make a video that would demonstrate my knowledge
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: of the subject much better than if I were to
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: write it in a five-page essay. And then we can
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: show it to the class and kids can talk about
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: it and it could be a fun way to learn this.
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: And in most cases, I remember making one in social
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: studies on Roe v.
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: Wade.
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: I remember making one in English class on racism. And
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: that's what I would do. And it's funny because nowadays
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: a lot of kids are doing that as well. When
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: I go back to my old high school and I
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: talk to some of my teachers, they tell me that
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: a lot of kids are, one, given the privilege to
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: do it, but are also really interested in doing it
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: that way and making videos as far as their projects go.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: It's interesting because I was able to do that in
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: my high school. We actually shot a Romeo and Juliet
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: But we actually shot it as an episode of Jerry Springer.
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: So we had like... That's brilliant. We had the Capulets
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: and the... What is it? The Montagues?
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: Montagues, yeah.
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: And we had each side and they would bring out
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: their guest. And we had a guy playing Jerry Springer.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: The teacher said in his analysis of it, you got
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: a written feedback. And he's like, this is either the best...
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: entry for this class, or this is the worst entry
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: in this class, and I'm not quite sure.
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: That's usually a good thing, though. That's usually a good thing.
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: It's just funny. You just reminded me when you were
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: talking about that. It's just better that way.
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's like sometimes school can be boring. I
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: get it. But when you give the kids freedom to
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: express their knowledge of the subject, like making Romeo and
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: Juliet out of Jerry Springer, or any other way in
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: the way that they know is that they feel is
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: best to express it. I am all for that. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: I just think that's more engaging, more entertaining. And also
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: there's more learning involved in that way.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I concur. And, you know, with everything going towards
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: video and especially mobile video now, you know, I think
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: it's encouraging to hear that they're out allowing students to
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 8:56
  Speaker 6: Absolutely.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: So, you know, you mentioned you travel the world a lot.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: I know I saw we actually met on Instagram and,
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: you know, I saw these great photos, you know, from
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: all over the world. So, you know, basically, I guess
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: you can do that now because, you know, if somebody
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: needs to hire you, Ron, they can just obviously email
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: you and you can be in Iceland or China or
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: or Thailand. And there's not really that big of a difference, right?
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: Because you're still going to communicate through either email or Skype, right?
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, thanks to Skype and FaceTime and email,
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: it makes it a lot easier. I still have to,
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: like I'm in Los Angeles right now, and I still
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: have to come back here for a lot of, whether
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: it's just pre-production meetings or script meetings, because everything kind
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: of starts here and then goes out. But yeah, I mean,
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: the technology has made has shrunk the world in a sense.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very true. I actually know a... He was a
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: former exec at Fox, and he actually basically retired at,
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: I think, around the age of 50, 55. And what
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: he does now is he travels the world, and he just...
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: That's his whole thing now. And I'm still trying to
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: get him to come on the podcast. But, you know,
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: now he just, you know, he'll go to China. He
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: takes a video with his phone. He uploads it. He
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: does interviews with people from all over the world. It's
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: really fascinating.
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I just, I think travel breeds maturation. I
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: think you really get a sense, you get a broader
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: sense of life when you travel and you see how
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: different people interact, react, eat, you know, treat others, live,
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: go by their day-to-day things. I just think when you
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: see that the broad diversity in the world that there
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: is with that, I don't know, for me, it just
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: really brings a sense of, I don't know how to
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: say it, but I don't want to say maturity, but
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: it feels like maturity is what it feels like.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: I get what you're saying. You know, it definitely, you know,
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: it's kind of like that TV show, An Idiot Abroad
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: with Carl Pilkington.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: I love that show. That's just hilarious.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Because Stephen Merchant, when he left, he said to him,
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: he was Carl, you know, traveling, I really think broadens
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: the mind. And of course, they're trying to get him
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: to understand other people's cultures and stuff. I mean, he
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: barely can live in the British culture as it is, but.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: They throw him under the bus so hard. They put
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: him in, like, every horrible situation possible. Which is kind
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: of funny, because he's, like, the perfect person to be
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: put in that situation as far as, like, us as
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: viewers to watch him. But, man, I feel bad for
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: him sometimes.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, some of the countries and some of the things
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: they had him do, it was absolutely hilarious. And his
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: reaction to everything... is to basically, he just doesn't understand anything.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: And it's, for anyone who hasn't seen it that is
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: listening to this, I'll link to it in the show notes,
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: but it's a great show that I highly recommend. You know, Ron,
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: just to, you know, as we sort of, you know,
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: talk about, you know, all your experiences and everything like that,
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: you know, you got involved in the TV show Defiance,
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, the movie Defiance, you know, which actually has
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: Daniel Craig in it, you know. So how did you
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: actually get involved with the movie?
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: Uh, through Ed Zwick, um, who saw my second film, um,
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: and we met and he was very, very gracious, um,
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: kind of in his praise and in his, um, offering
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: to bring me on board that this film that we're,
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: we're working on right now, I'd love for you to
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: take a look at the script. I love what you
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: can possibly bring as far as writing. And that was
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: pretty much it. And then that that's really what opened
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: a lot of doors afterwards for me.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: So, you know, when you when you get the script, OK,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: so when you got the script for Defiance, you know,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: what was one of the first things that you did
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: with with the script? I mean, did you, you know,
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: read it cover to cover and not make any notes or,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: you know, do you take a red pen out and
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: write ideas down as you're going?
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: Um, yeah.
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: Defiance was like almost seven or eight years, eight years
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: ago or something like that. But yeah, every script is
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: kind of different. Um, usually I'll read it first page
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: to last page.
• 13:42
  Speaker 6: No notes.
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: Maybe I'll jot an idea down here or there, but
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: I just want to see if I would enjoy this
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: film at the theater first. And then from there I'll
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: break it down structurally and, um, From there, then after structurally,
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: I'll go character. And it's interesting because I go character second,
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: but character I think is almost more important than structurally
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: because you can have a great structure of a screenplay,
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: but if you're not, if you don't have entertaining or
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: interesting characters, it's still boring. You know, we're not going
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: to learn anything. We're not going to be able to
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: relate to anybody on screen. And so that's kind of
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: my process, but it always differs per script, to be honest.
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: Like Um, like with Wolf, okay, I gotta be honest.
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: So when I work on a script, I also find
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: myself and my lifestyle kind of molding a bit towards
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: what I'm working on. So like, for instance, when I
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: was working on Wolf, you know, you're going out with
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: your friends a lot. You're having fun. You're kind of
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: experiencing it. You're taking that as quote unquote research for
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: what you're working on and you, And then I engaged
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: myself in that lifestyle versus when I was working on Fury,
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: it was very regimented. I would make my bed every morning.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: And so for me personally, that's kind of almost how
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: I work. I've noticed that subconsciously at this point in
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: my life. So that's why it depends. It differs every script.
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, sometimes... With Fury, I'll be very, very detail-oriented,
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: and I'll use a specific number two pencil, and I'll
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: make sure it's sharpened to the point every time before
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: I write. Little things like that really, for me, keep
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: me in it, make me believe, if that makes sense.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: I see exactly what you mean. I think once we
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: get in that mindset, And, you know, it's almost like
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: how an actor does method acting. It's almost like method writing.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: And to be honest, I mean, not to sound pompous,
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: but as a writer, when you are writing, you are God.
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: You are playing God. You can puppeteer the characters, the setting,
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: the weather, any which way you want.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: So you are.
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: You literally have the responsibility of God when you're writing.
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: And I... You have to put yourself in the shoes
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: of each and every character. No matter how much you
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: dislike or how much of a jerk or an asshole
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: a certain character is, you have to put yourself in
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: their shoes. Because no matter how bad of a person
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: someone thinks another person is, we all do things for
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: what we think are the right reasons, personally. You know,
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: like Hitler, horrible, horrible person. But what he thought in
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: his head, he was doing the right thing. Though I
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: don't agree with that, for the record. I don't agree.
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: I thought Hitler was a fucking idiot and what he
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: did was absolutely horrible. But when you look at it
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: from the perspective of a writer, when you have an antagonist,
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: when you have a villain in your film, your screenplay,
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: whatever it is that you're writing, you have to put
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: yourself in their shoes and try and see and understand
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: why do they think this is the right thing that
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: they're doing. And so that's why kind of, yeah, it's
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: like method. You have to do that for the responsibility
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: that you have to the story.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: You know, I think Mickey Rourke is somebody who said
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: it best when he said that most writers don't understand
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the antagonist. He said sometimes, or sorry, most of the time,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: they're just evil for the sake of being evil. And,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: you know, it's like you said, you know, you have
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: to put yourself in their shoes and have to make
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: it believable as to why they're doing what they're doing
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: Because in reality, you know, nobody really gets up one
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: morning and says, I'm going to be evil today. But,
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: Exactly. And the character, the lead character, the protagonist isn't
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: going to be, the protagonist is only as strong as
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: his or her antagonist. Depending on how hard that the
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: antagonist hits back at him to stop him from reaching
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: his goal is only going to show you how strong
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: of the protagonist that he really is.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: As we talk about the antagonist and the protagonist, you
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: also worked on the script for the movie The Wolf
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: of Wall Street. Honestly, Ron, I walked into the movie
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: and I didn't know what to expect. I know it
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: was Scorsese, and I walked out and I was like, wow,
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: that was 10 times better than I thought it was
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: going to be. It reminded me a lot of... Leaving
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: Las Vegas. Fear and Loathing of Las Vegas. Leaving Las
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Vegas is a very down movie.
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's a great film as well. It's a
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: great film. My favorite line, just a quick side note,
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: my favorite line from Leaving Las Vegas is when Nick
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: Cage is poking his head out the car window and
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: he's like, you got.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: A great ass, but shut your head all.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: The way up it. I just love that quote. Anyways.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: It reminded me of Fear and Loathing of Las Vegas. So,
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: you know, when you get a script like The Wolf
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: of Wall Street, You know, how do you handle something
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: like that that really doesn't have a clear... I mean,
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: we have a clear protagonist, which is Jordan Belfort. But,
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: you know, our antagonist could be a couple of different things.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: But when you get a script like that, Ron, you know,
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: how do you sort of work through that?
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: Well, first off, Terry Winter, who... was the head writer
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: on Wolf of Wall Street, the main guy. He did
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: a fantastic job. And that script was actually drafted like
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: six or seven years before we went into production on it.
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: And I remember working with Terry, and he would tell
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: me that him and Marty would talk, and Terry specifically said,
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: I'm going to kind of mold this structurally after Goodfellas.
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: Terry was like, I feel like this story... would be
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: perfectly told in that type of sense.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: And so we started with that. And we started with
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: that structure and that kind of idea of this one
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: man's almost... life story through all the crazy experiences he has.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: And is he even going to make it out alive
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: in the end? And you have, you have characters like,
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: like Dignam, who's, who's your FBI. And you can say
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: like actual physical character of an antagonist, but also in
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: those films, what makes them also kind of relatable is,
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: is the source of antagonism as far as Jordan Belfort's
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: greed himself. And how many, quote unquote, pleasures that can
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: bring you, but at the same time, how many pains
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: and forces to stop you from having the other aspects
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: of life that you want, like say a family and children,
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: where how greed and self-obsession can turn into a drug addiction,
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: can turn into this, and can really hinder you from
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: having what I think are the lasting things in life.
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: So there's also other sources of antagonism besides physical. Sometimes
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: those are, to me, more interesting.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: I concur because as I was watching the movie, I
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: was realizing Jordan's worst enemy is himself. And also, as
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: we're watching this movie, the conflict is really with himself.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: It's a lot of internal conflict. that plays out externally. Yeah.
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: And it's so interesting too, because that also, that own
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: internal conflict is also kind of what drives him, uh,
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: and motivates him and inspires him to, to make more money,
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: to go out and do these illegal things. And it's,
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: that's so interesting to me, like that type of characterization.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: It really did. And, and, you know, the ending really,
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: it was very interesting too, because it didn't end in
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: the way that I thought it was going to end.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: I wasn't too familiar with Jordan's story, you know, going
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: into it, but, uh, when at the end, when he's
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: just simple, simply tells the guy, sell me this pen,
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: you know, it's actually pretty thought provoking too, because, you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: you could be taken a number of different ways. And
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: the way that I took it was basically you'd have
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: to say to Jordan, take, you know, when he says,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: sell me this pen, you take the pen from him
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: and say, could you write.
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: Your name down?
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: And then when he says, oh, can you, you know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: when Jordan have to say, well, I need a pen
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: for that. That's when you try to sell him the pen. Um,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: but you know, it's interesting because Even now, Jordan goes
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: on seminars like that and he's selling people the experience.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: He's doing all this other stuff. It's all pretty interesting
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: how the movie ties together in the end.
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and that actually wasn't the original ending either. I'm
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: trying to remember. I talked about this a lot when
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: I was doing press for it when the film came out.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: The original.
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: Man i honestly don't remember the original ending right now
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: on my head um um but i know like a
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: lot of the stuff that was actually in the beginning
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: as far as like his backstory was also kind of
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: towards the end oh wait you know what maybe i
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: have the script i can just kind of pull out
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: the original script if you give me five minutes we
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: can keep talking and i'll try and find the original
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: script to see if i can pull it up here.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: Okay that sounds that sounds great um So as we
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: sort of talk about movies and stuff like that, about
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: the tension and goals and stuff like that, so again,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: when you're reading these scripts, I often wonder what screenplay
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: readers and consultants and everything, I know everybody sort of
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: has a different way of looking at things, but I
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: think one thing that everyone has to look for are
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: two things. Number one is, what is the core of
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: the story? And number two is, What is the essence
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: of every scene? Is that something that you do when
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: you're reading the scripts?
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: The biggest mistake that writers make is keeping in their babies,
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: which are scenes that they think are amazing or they
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: show this great aspect, but really they don't progress the story.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: They're there because the writer loves his own writing and
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: nothing really more than that. Um, but it's, it's actually
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: really interesting because I get the, the, the title of
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: script analysis and script coordinator and script editor for my credit. Um,
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: but it's really interesting because I'm not always a huge
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: fan of necessarily what I do for a it becomes
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: a crutch. And I think writers should have more trust
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: and faith in themselves. I've kind of carved out this
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: niche where studios bring me in a lot for structural
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: reasons or like quick scene rewrites is what I found
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: myself to be doing a lot. I don't always necessarily
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: go over the entire script. I mean, Wolf I did.
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: Now You See Me I did. Fury I did.
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: Defiance, yeah.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: But like, For instance, scenes like for Funny People. I
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: also just recently worked on the TV show, the reboot
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: of Twin Peaks. And I was simply just brought in
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: for that to give them a younger demographic's eyes on
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: the story. If they could see somebody younger being able
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: to relate to it.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: So, I.
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: Don't know. I mean.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of them out there. And it's funny
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: that we're talking about this at the same time we
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: just got done talking about Jordan Belfort and people that
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: go out there and sell this lifestyle. Everybody's obsessed with
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: DJ Khaled right now and everything that he sells on
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: his social media stuff. There's that guy Ty Lopez on
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: YouTube that talks about his Ferrari and books and all
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: that stuff. Excuse me.
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: But.
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: So, so I don't know. So there's some good ones
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: out there and there's some bad ones, but I would just,
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: if I would give any advice to writers, it would
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: be to trust themselves more with their own writing. I
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: know it's a demon. I know you got to battle
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: it daily, but, but you know, just mount up and
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: just trust yourself. That's the biggest thing that a lot
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: of people forget is their own uniqueness. A lot of
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: people forget, That they have a unique equation of experiences
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: that only they have gone through up until this point
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: where they're at in their life. And nobody else has
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: gone through that exact equation of experiences or had that
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: exact reaction after that experience. And I just say, don't
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: discredit it. Credit yourself.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: One of the best books on writing I've ever read
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: was Steven Pressfield's The War of Art.
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: Excuse me.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: Um, and you know, that's about, you know, every day
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: it's about resistance and, you know, going in there and
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: doing the best work that you can. And, uh, you know, Steven, uh,
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: for those of you who are, for those of you
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: who are familiar with the podcast, you know, I talk
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: a lot about Steven Pressfield and, uh, next to me
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: right now is four books of his that are just,
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: I think, absolutely phenomenal. Anyone who wants to be a
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: writer should at least read the war of art. Um,
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: But again, like you said, Ron, it's about going in there,
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: trusting yourself, and just beating that monster every single day.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: And anybody who wants to be a writer should be
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: reading every day. They should be reading every day. They
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: should be writing every day. They should not be relying
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: on their quote unquote inspiration or their feeling of, oh,
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: I feel like writing. I have something to say today. No,
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: you become a good writer because you put in the work,
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: because you write every day. And not every day is
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: going to be good. And you have to accept that
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: 75% of what you write or type is going to
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: be garbage and shit and it's going to go straight
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: to the trash. But you have to accept it. It's
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: part of the craft. And writing is rewriting. So you
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: come in every day as if it were a 9
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: to 5 and you sit down. There's a German phrase
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: called Siesfleisch, which means sticking your ass to the chair.
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: And you just sit there and you bleed or you
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: type or you– Throw yourself into it. Whatever words that
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: you choose that get yourself in that emotional state of
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: being able to do it, that's all you really have
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: to do. Read, write every day, day in, day out.
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: And that's the best advice I can give.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: I actually just received some of the 2015 Best Screenplays
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: of the Year. People send me them in e-mails. and
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: I put together a photo of them, and I pick
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: up the movies I haven't seen yet, like Bridge of Spies.
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: I'm going to read that probably today or tomorrow. I
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: haven't seen the movie yet, but I want to read
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: the screenplay first. Although it might spoil the movie, I
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: hear it's awesome. I just want to dissect it. I
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: would be verbose if I didn't at least mention that
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: I'm very jealous that you got to read the Twin
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: Peaks scripts, because I'm a huge Twin Peaks fan. And
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: and I love David Lynch when he was here in Philly.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: I went to go see him and tickets sold out
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: literally in minutes to go see him. And I picked
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: up two as soon as they went on sale. I mean,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: I am just a huge fan of all his work.
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: And he's an amazing man, too. I worked on that
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: show kind of at the same time as I was
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: coming out of a relationship of a breakup.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: And he really helped me. I mean, he's really big
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: into the transcendental meditation and whatnot. But he really helped
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: me as far as finding a sense of peace as
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: a man and also as an artist, because that was
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: many conversations we had about the struggle of being an
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: artist and as an artist, should you constantly be feeling despair?
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: and sadness so you can put it into your work. Like,
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: is there something wrong with feeling happy as an artist?
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: And we talked a lot about that and he really
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: guided me in a, in a good way. So I
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: have nothing but praise for David. I mean, he's, he's
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: such an auteur too. I mean, he's such a maestro
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: in his craft and he's, he knows exactly what we wanted.
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: You know, the show almost didn't happen actually because, because
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: David's requests for how to shoot it were very specific
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: and Showtime didn't want to up the budget. And so
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: like this, this could have, the show could have been
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: started to shoot like a year ago, but because of that,
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: maybe not a year ago, maybe like nine months ago,
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: but because Showtime didn't want out the budget, they were
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: being kind of stingy in that sense. It got delayed.
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: And then finally they gave in and we were able
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: to start shooting like three months ago.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: That's great that they were able to finally, you know,
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: come to an agreement because somebody actually asked him when
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: he was here in Philly, probably about a year, year
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: and a half ago, they actually said to him, what
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: are you making next? Do you have anything on the pipeline?
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And he said, well, no, I'm not working on anything
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: right now. And then about, I think maybe a month
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: after that at most, the promo video for Twin Peaks
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: season three came on and I was like, oh my God,
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: this is phenomenal. And yeah, I mean, I know it's
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: next year. I think they said it's going to be released,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: but I mean, honestly, I can't wait. Yeah.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah. All I can say about is damn good coffee.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Trust me, if you could talk about it, I'd probably
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: talk your ear off. And I know you can't mention anything.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: But just to continue your work and everything, you got
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: to work on Fury, which was the World War II
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: movie with Brad Pitt. You got that script. That's sort
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: of a very interesting movie because it's a lot of,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: at least in the first half, is a lot of
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: battle scenes. Very heavy, detailed battle scenes. Obviously, it's a
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: World War II movie, so there's going to be some
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: tank battles. Again, you probably had to switch gears a
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: little bit because I'm sure there was probably a lot
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: of detailed action scenes in the script. Or maybe I'm
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: completely mistaken and there wasn't. So how did you go
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: about working with the script for Fury?
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: Well, the biggest difference from going from Wolf to Fury
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: was Fury is written by David Ayer. It's also directed
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: by David Ayer. So the script already... like you see
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: how he's going to shoot it. I mean, I'm very
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: familiar with, with David, um, and how he films. However,
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: Fury was one of the first films that he didn't
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: use so much, um, handheld cameras. If you watch some
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: of David's earlier films, he does a lot of handheld, uh,
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: camera filmmaking. And, uh, with Fury, Sony really wanted a
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: smooth shot. I mean, David also really wanted smooth shots.
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: They were giving him a much bigger budget. So they
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: kind of wanted this very... Because the battle scenes were
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: going to be gory, there's going to be mud, there's
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: going to be blood, there's going to be bullets flying,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: tanks firing, that they wanted to shoot it kind of
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: almost glossy in the sense where there's cranes and it's
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: smooth and there's tracking shots. There's not gritty camera movement
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: that's interfering with the viewer interacting with the battle scenes themselves.
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: And so.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: You could see it in the script how kind of
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: it was already going to be shot. There's a little
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: bit of camera directions, which usually aren't in the script,
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: but because David's the writer-director on it, he already has
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: it in his head how he wants to shoot it.
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: And so that was the biggest change of going to
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: Fury from Wolf because usually then the next step in
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: the process would be for the script writer and the
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: team to go with the director and and the director
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: then has to decide how he wants to shoot it
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: versus skipping that step completely because the writer is the
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: director and he's already got it in his head how
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: he wants to shoot it so the theory was just
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: more structurally um there wasn't kind of um there wasn't
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: too much david's so good with character work he's so
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: good he almost starts with i i think think that's
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: actually what he starts with when he writes is he
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: starts with characters so there wasn't much character work that
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: needed to be done with that i mean it was
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: when we talked about the script it was talked about
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: this is a character piece and it's about these this
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: this group of guys how they're all different and how
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: they're all going through the same thing and how it's
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: affecting each one of them and like scenes if you've
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: seen the movie the scene where they go up into
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: the little town home and they have the two women
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: make them some food. And, and Logan also hooks up
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: with the one girl. Um, but that scene was meant
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: to be written as if it could be played out
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: on a stage, like for theater. Um, so it was just, yeah,
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: I guess it was just very different working with a
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: writer director because he already has it. And instead of
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: how he wants to shoot it and you just, you
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: just go with that. And, and, uh, it almost kind
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: of makes the process a little bit easier, you know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: because there's less cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that would make the process... I understand
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: completely what you mean. That would make the process easier.
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: You know, I sort of imagine, too, that when he
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: did see the script, he probably knew, okay, we don't
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: need to add too many details to this because I
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: already know what it's going to be. If you know
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying... Like, he already knew, you know, obviously
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: this is going to be a scene that I've already
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: storyboarded myself, so, you know, we don't need to worry
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: too much about that. And it was, you know, I'm sure,
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: you know, that probably took, okay, well, you know, now
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: this is a little bit easier now because now we
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: don't have to, you know, now we can, there's less
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: things we have to worry about, if you know what
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and David's, he is so intelligent on, he's a
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: military man himself, so he's so intelligent on all aspects military. Like,
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: Usually there's a fact checker that comes into play, but
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: with David, none was really needed. He knows that stuff
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: like the back of his hand.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because the movie actually had one of the last
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: working tiger tanks in the world. Because I think there's
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: two left. I think the British have one, and I
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: think the other one is in a tank museum in Russia.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: But that was amazing. You were actually able to use
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: an actual tiger tank for the movie.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember shooting days outside of London.
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: For that.
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: They were just, I mean, you would wake up and
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: you would feel like you were in a war camp.
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: Like it was crazy. It was a really cool experience.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: That's either a very good thing or a very bad thing. Like,
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: oh my God, we're in a war camp.
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's funny because when you look back on it,
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: when you work on all these films, you kind of
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: almost have like these different parts of your life that
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: you like, you get to experience. And sometimes they're not
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: always good. Sometimes you're having to work on material that
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: is maybe a bit depressing or a bit sad, and
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: it kind of brings you down. But I can say
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: that for every film that I've ever worked on, I
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: look back on them, and they were all amazing learning experiences,
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: no matter if I was extremely happy or extremely down
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: working on the material that I was at the time.
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: But looking back, I mean, nothing but gratitude for all
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: of them.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: I saw a psychologist, he wrote this article that if
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: you spend more money on experiences than actual things, you're
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: going to be happier. And, you know, making these movies, even,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I've been a part of, you know, independent
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: movies and stuff. You know, some were very good, some
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: were bad, mean experiences.
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: And, you know, you just.
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: Sometimes, though, when you actually get this feeling of just,
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: you know, you immerse yourself in the movie, you just
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: sort of feel like you're part of a team and
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: you remember that stuff, you know, and I can still
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: look back now, even though some of them were like,
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: you know, five, six, seven years ago, you know, but
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, still, you know, you look back and you're like,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: that's actually a pretty damn good memory. I'm glad I
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: did that.
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you get to have those crazy experiences with the
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: cast and the crew. You go out after a long
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: day or you kind of get bonded like family, especially
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: on those night shoots when you're going until like four
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: or five in the morning and you didn't start until
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: like eight at night the previous day. Those you get
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: a lot of bonding experience on.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. It's always about forming that team. That's something
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: I always sort of preach here is about you know,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: make sure that the people you can work with or
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: the people that you choose for your team are people
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: that you can work with. because, you know, we got
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: to make sure, you know, you're able to form as
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: an actual cohesive team. You know, Ron, I know we're
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: sort of running out of time. I had a couple
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: of questions come in from the audience. Would you mind
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: answering a few?
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, sure.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: You know, the first question that came in was, how
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: do you feel about formulas in screenwriting?
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: Which I think they're referring to like Save the Cat and,
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: you know, the sequencing method.
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: I think this. I think if you are a starting writer,
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: if you are looking to, quote unquote, break into the industry,
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: then I think your first couple screenplays that you write
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: should be a bit formulaic in that sense because those
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: first couple screenplays that you write are not going to
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: be the screenplays that get you the Oscar. They're not
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: going to be the screenplays that get you the Emmy.
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: What they're going to be is there going to be
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: writing samples that get you representation and what representation wants
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: to see from starting out writers is that you're not
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: trying to make these crazy avant-garde films. You know, Bergman
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: didn't make persona until later in his career, you know,
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: so you want to start with formula and then you
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: can break it down, but you, but, I mean, it's,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: it's a, it's a slippery slope because you can almost
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: say that every film has a formula. Every film has a,
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: you know, first cause of action. Every film has a
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: climax and catharsis and a midpoint, blah, blah, blah. But,
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: you know, stick to it. If you're starting out screenwriter,
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: stick to it because you're going to use that as
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: writing samples to get you other work, to get you representation.
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: And then from there you can branch yourself out.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: Okay. Very cool. Uh, You know, we have another question
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: that came in and that was, which story proved to
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: be the most difficult to make, to make it work
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: for all the characters involved and why?
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: Oh, man.
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's funny because I've worked on a lot
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: of scripts as well that have never even seen the
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: light of day. And there's, I'll say this, there's one
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: that I worked on five years ago. And, oh, where
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: is it? Oh, it's right here.
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: Where did the.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: I thought I had the script. But anyways, I worked
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: on this script five years ago. And now it finally
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: went into production. And we're shooting in Italy next summer.
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: And it's called Enzo Ferrari. And it's the biopic of
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: the man who started Ferrari. And Christian Bale's going to
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: play him. And it's got Naomi Rapice in it. And
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: Michael Mann's directing it. I worked on that script five
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: years ago when one of the original drafts was drafted
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: by Jeb and Jez Butterworth. And that was, man, I
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: remember the characters back then were so entangled and you
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: had to kind of individually pull them apart like sticky
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: spaghetti and figure out what each one's desire was and
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: wanted for the story. And I remember that being probably
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: the most incredibly difficult. Unfortunately, I can't speak too much
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: more about it because the films were shooting next summer.
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: So it's going to be coming out in two years
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: and after that. But I would say that's probably the
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: most one. Out of the other films that have actually
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: come out, probably Wolf. Wolf was kind of crazy because
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: there were so many cogs and pieces to that machine
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: as far as characters go, all centered around Jordan. And
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: there was multiple, multiple drafts of that script. Which, by
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: the way, I just pulled up the original ending. And
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: the original ending was just going to end with the same...
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: montage that you see at the beginning of the film
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: as him as a young kid with his father. I
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: believe they used the picture at like a baseball field.
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: It was that and then it cuts to Jordan's estate
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: and he uses a black AMX to cut two lines
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: of coke on an elaborate ox table and he speaks
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: directly to the camera. Of all my addictions, there was
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: one above that ultimately brought me down. He peels a
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: crisp $ 100 bill off a wad, rolls it up. Looks
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: like he's about to snarf up a line, but Jordan says,
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about this. And
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: Jordan unfurls the $ 100 bill with a snap. So that
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: scene that you see in the beginning of the film,
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: that was also really popular in the trailer, that he's
• 44:20
  Speaker 5: saying the thing that can obliterate your enemies is money.
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: That was actually the original ending of the script.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: Oh, wow. That's very cool. Well, thank you for that.
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: And this is amazing that I now, you know, now
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: everyone knows what the alternate ending is. So thank you
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: for that, Ron. And, you know, I can imagine Wolf
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: being the toughest because, I mean, there were so many
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: characters in there. And, you know, there was Jonah Hill's character.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: You know, he played an integral role and there's just
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: so many other you know, of Jordan's guys, of his crew,
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: you know, that were, you know, I'm sure, you know,
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: when you were going through the script, that you were like, okay,
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: now we gotta keep track of all these guys, you know?
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and that was also a film that we were
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: constantly working on, like, while it was being shot, and
• 45:06
  Speaker 5: there was a lot of improv-ing going on on set,
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: so after, you know... after we're done shooting on set,
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: we're watching dailies and we're saying, oh man, this will
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: be great. Cause they were all so funny. I mean,
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: there was so many, like there's probably a good four
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: or five hours of additional scenes that didn't make the
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: film that I am just hoping that they release in
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: like a bonus DVD because the original cut before Marty
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: took the film to his house in New York to
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: cut it down personally, because we were running out of
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: time for the release date. the original cut was like
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: six and a half hours. And it was just like,
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: because there's so much you can kind of play with
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: as far as actors go in those scenes. And we
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: can be, Oh, try this, try this.
• 45:52
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: Do that, do that. And so, yeah, you're, that was,
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: you're constantly trying to like reel everybody in, in a
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: sense and keep everybody online towards the goal of the scene. Um,
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: and then you're also having to rewrite like, Oh my God,
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: that was hilarious.
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: Let's use this.
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: Like Matthews, um, the, the chest beating line, which has
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: become very famous from it. Like that was, that was
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: all improv. I mean, that was kind of like, Leo
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: was like, let's just shoot it. And I was like, okay.
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: And that's just how that played out. So like you're,
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: you're constantly reworking this story while it's, while it's being filmed.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: If they ever released a six hour cut, that would be,
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: that would be, you know, phenomenal.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: Um, but, uh, but yeah, maybe one day they will
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: release a six hour cut. Um, you know, there, there's
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: a friend, a guy I know who I'm trying on
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: the podcast. He had a six hour cut of his
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: movie that, uh, he shot it with comedy central and
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: comedy central basically flat out said, we're never going to
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: release a six hour version of this. Uh, you'll get
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: the 90 minute version and that's it.
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: Uh, and so the last question that came that, uh,
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: that came in is, um, Do you think a writer
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: can break in slash get past the gatekeepers with a
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: screenplay that doesn't strictly follow the three-act structure?
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: Well, it depends. It depends.
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: First off, it better be a really damn good story.
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: It better be a damn good screenplay. Otherwise, because the
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: gatekeeper are the readers. They're the people that aren't really
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: even paid that much that work as assistants or just
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: readers at the studios. Or agencies. So those are your
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: quote unquote gatekeepers you gotta get past first. And if
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: you can somehow make the story intriguing early on and
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: you can get us hooked early on and keep the
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: story progressing and building then yeah. It's going to be hard.
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: If it's your first screenplay, if you're trying to break in,
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: I wouldn't recommend doing it. I would recommend just getting
• 48:07
  Speaker 5: a good solid three features and a couple TV show
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: treatments and Bibles under your portfolio that you can use
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: as writing samples to get you the representation. Then you
• 48:22
  Speaker 5: can work on those films, those screenplays that are more
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: avant-garde in the sense that they don't follow a three-act structure.
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: Maybe they follow more Shakespearean five or Mamet four. But
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: also at the same time, I mean, who am I
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: to tell you that you can't? I mean, I didn't
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: listen to anybody. So I suggest, you know, follow your
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: heart in that sense. And shooting and making films is
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: so much less expensive than what it once was. So,
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe you can also shoot it and make
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: it yourself. you know, at the same time.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very good point, Ron. You know, with the advent
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: of crowdfunding now and, you know, shooting on digital, you know,
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: there's a lot more opportunities now available to filmmakers out there.
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. I kind of love it. I mean,
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: it gives this freedom to the artists that, like, they've
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: never had in a long time. Yeah.
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: Uh, and you know, as I, the various guests I
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: have on here, that's something we discuss is, you know,
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: which route would you take? And, you know, you can
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: choose the route we were just talking about. You could
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: choose the route of, you know, uh, entering a competition
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: and hopefully you place in there. You can go the
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: route of sending it to a studio and hope a
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: reader gives it a, um, hope the reader passes it
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: up the chain of command, so to speak. So there's
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: a lot of different factors that play into it. Obviously,
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: if you and I wrote a $ 200 million Pirates of
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: the Caribbean, that's not something that we're going to be
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: able to shoot in our backyard.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: But it's also something that we wouldn't be able to
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: really break a three act structure from at the same
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: time because yeah, very true studios that dish out that
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: amount of money for those films. I mean, even Wolf,
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: Wolf was, was like just around a hundred a million
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: dollar budget, but even still, there's a lot of input
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: from producers and studio execs that are putting their neck
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: out on the line for investing this much in a film.
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: And they're going to want you to follow an almost
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: kind of guaranteed structure in a way.
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I can totally see what you mean. It's sort
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: of like nobody wants a repeat of Land of the Lost,
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: where I remember when that came out, and I remember
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: all the articles on The Hollywood Reporter and Variety about
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: the execs who all greenlit that were all canned. And
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: they said, why would you invest all this money into
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: an old TV show from the, what, 70s, 60s, I think?
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was 60s, I believe.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just, you know, so I completely understand
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: what you're saying. You know, just hearing interviews, too, from
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: other directors and writers, you know, just about getting notes
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: about the dailies and getting notes about this and, you know,
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: what notes do you take, what notes do you just
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: sort of, you know, I think it was maybe Craig Mazin,
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: he was saying that one time he got notes and he,
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: you know, he said, okay, well, thank you very much
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: for these and he, you know, he went about on
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: his day and And the next day he got more notes,
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: but it was basically the same notes, but written differently.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: And he was like, you know, so he's like, OK, guys,
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: I'll I'll take these notes into consideration, too. But but yeah,
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: you know, there is a lot of money at stake
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: and there is a lot of people with their their
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: necks on the line. But yeah, Ron. But Ron, I
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: want to I know, you know, we're pretty much running
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: out of time. I want to say, you know, thank
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: you very much for coming on. You know, is there
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: any sort of anything you want to say to sort of,
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: you know, put a period at the end of the sentence?
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: Um, right. If you're a writer, declare yourself a writer
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: and declare yourself the best writer and just write every
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: day and just go fork with that. And you said
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: earlier about, you know, deciding which route to take to
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: go screenplay festival, to go, uh, agents to, you know,
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: the best route I think is to just take all
• 52:23
  Speaker 5: of them, take all of them, see what options you
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: get back. And then you get to choose. Because if
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: you have one choice, one option, you got nothing. If
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: you got two, you still got nothing. But if you
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: have three options to choose from, you have a choice.
• 52:35
  Speaker 5: So I would say that. I would say it's a
• 52:38
  Speaker 5: very kind of hardworking industry. You got to think of
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: it from the fact that there are people moving to
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: LA and from all over the world trying to compete.
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: with their script to get their script made. And you,
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: you have to go into that sense where like every
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: day I'm going to commit to this. And sometimes that's
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: going to require you to miss out on other things. Um,
• 53:08
  Speaker 5: but it will pay off in the end. If you
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: put the work in now is the best thing I
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: can say.
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: And Ron, I think that's a great way, a great
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: way to end this episode of the podcast. Uh, Ron, again,
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: I want to say thank you very much for coming on.
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: And where can people find you at online?
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: Mostly just Instagram, Twitter. My handle is at Ron Autour, R-O-N-A-U-T-E-U-R.
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: I don't think I do much else online. My computer
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: is actually mostly in airplane mode when I'm writing.
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: I will link to all his social media channels in
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: the show notes, everyone. Again, I found Ron on Instagram.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: That's how we started talking. Ron, again, thanks for coming
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: on and sharing everything with us. And I wish you
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: the best for all your future projects.
• 53:55
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Dave.
• 53:56
  Speaker 6: Same to you, man.
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: It was a pleasure talking with you.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. You know, Ron, again,
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: have a great night, buddy.
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: You too.
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: Take care. Bye-bye.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.com. Thank you
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: no matter what.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv.