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Money & Divorce - financial planning for divorce & beyond · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship, please conversation meeting deeply supportive meetings.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Alive and love, completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, welcome to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm speaking with Jordan Vacker.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan is an independent financial advisor who's been practicing for more than 15 years and he now runs his own firm, Planning Solo, which is dedicated to helping people feel more confident about money as they go through their divorce.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Jordan.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is great to have you here today.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Olian.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to this.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's going to be a good chat.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to start off and ask you to just share a little bit about your journey, how you came to start planning solo, and I guess why specifically divorce?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's I have been asked that a bit.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like it's a bit of a weird sort of space to work in in my area.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I came out of university back in 2006.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've been advising since 2007, and by about sort of 17, 18, I was feeling pretty stale.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the usual planning stuff we were doing was fine, but it was feeling pretty monotonous.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we started looking at why that was and trying to unpack that.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And really it was because the people the things that I loved doing, which was helping people with their money and their complexity and protecting them from the downsides that come with money and just building those relationships of trust, wasn't what I was spending most of my time doing.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Most of our time was doing pretty mechanical stuff.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh you know my business partner and I, we realized that you know we're on different paths.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we sold our business last year, our larger practice, and I started up planning solar, which is or could focus on planning solar, um, which is dedicated to helping people in divorce.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're only six months old now, so I think technically we're in startup phase, but it's 14 years old.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: 14 years of experience in a in a startup.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I get it, I understand, bringing all those experiences in.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and look, for many of my clients, money is one of their really big concerns as they navigate their separation and divorce.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting that you've chosen to specifically work um during divorce.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know I know you work in a collaborative way with your clients.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I wondered if you would explain what collaborative divorce means to you and the role of a financial planner or planning solo in a collaborative divorce.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, working collaboratively, as you know, we work and we share with our clients and we work as part of a team generally.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the term collaborative divorce has a very specific meaning uh in the area that we work in.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's broadly, it's sort of the fourth option when it comes to how you can get divorced.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not a lawyer, so forgive the sort of generalities, but in Australia, there's four ways you can do it.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can DIY, where you and your partner decide and process it all yourself.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can go through mediation, which is you have a third-party assist through resolving any disputes, or you can go through litigation, which I think is what most people see in their mind's eye when they think of divorce.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: They think of the knock-down sort of fights through court.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the fourth option is a collaborative one, which is kind of a mix of some of those options, where you and your partner or you're assumed to the ex engage a team, and that team of professionals is there to help you resolve your divorce and the sort of the resolution of your relationship in a way that at the end of it you can both still be in a room afterwards and to minimize the conflict and minimize the uh acrimony after everything is settled.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, within that relate in that team, you will each have a lawyer that's there to represent your interests and advocate for you and to make sure that's being pushed forward.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's two lawyers.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are then a few neutrals, and one of the neutrals is a communications specialist, generally or often a psychologist, and they are there to help the two of you communicate through that process, explore and resolve any of the conflict that might arise, and try to make sure that everybody's still working from a place of respect for each other, knowing that at the end of the process, we still want to be able to talk to each other.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you'll often have a family consultant when there are kids involved.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously telling kids, helping kids through that process is very hard.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they're there to help with that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a financial neutral, which is where I fit in.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: We will work with both parties to firstly get an idea of how much they both know about money, how comfortable they are with money, what they know about the money in the family.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: We'll then go away and do the research and gather all the data that the team needs to help through the process.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll go and collect all the information they need.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll then present that information to the couple so that they're all on the same page, so they know what's there.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because often one party knows where the money is and the other party doesn't really know.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we try to bring them all up to speed.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then as the negotiations proceed, we're there to help model out any alternatives that might be presented.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, one good thing, really one really good thing about collaborative divorce is it allows for really creative solutions, things that probably normally wouldn't go through the courts or even through the normal systems.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it lets you be really creative.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: We can model out what that means for people so they're making really informed decisions.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think for most relationships that are ending, it's a really good option.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good for people that are, you know, that there's maybe some domestic violence issues or some control concerns or things like that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But for people that aren't in that space, it can be a really good way to resolve the relationship and move on to the next part of your life without that lingering bitterness and distaste that can come with it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some momentum behind it, which is really exciting.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's increasingly available to clients, I'm finding, as we move forward, which is really, really great.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you see your role?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: How does financial advice help during the divorce?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of clients just seem to think it's all about a number or a percentage split.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd be really interested to hear more about the creative solutions that you spoke about, um, rather than just getting all the numbers together, chucking it all in, sort of tossing it all into a bucket and then divvying it up.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about those creative solutions a little more?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's funny.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was one of the questions we were asking ourselves in those years when I was trying to work out why I wasn't very happy with what I was doing.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, trying to work out is there a role for us?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a way we can help people?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can we move further on up the chain?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: We were finding we were seeing people after they've been through the divorce and a lot of the damage had been done.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So can we move further up and try to help?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then over that real you know period of research and trying to work out where we fit in.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's two elements, I think, to our role in the divorce.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: The first one is the mechanical part, which is what you're talking about.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we take the numbers, we take the percentage, we chuck it in a spreadsheet, we do what we do, we can calculate it out, and then here's the hard numbers of what you need.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's fairly mechanical.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's definitely a role for that.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the real value from having an advisor that I'm finding, um, it's really helping people, the people we work with are mainly inexperienced with money.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's mainly where we step in.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: We help them learn about their money, which sounds kind of can sound a bit silly of be patronizing.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've never dealt with the money, if you've never had to make decisions about superannuation or insurances or investments, it can be really intimidating.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we're there on the side of the divorce to help them learn about those ideas, explore those concepts, and apply that to their reality.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also aligning the pool is can become a bit of an abstract concept during the divorce.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we try to do is link that to the future they want for themselves and try to keep that in line for them.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love that.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you're in the divorce, you're in it.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't look up and look five years down the track.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas we we we can we're separate from it, so we can help bring that back as much as we can.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those two elements are really important, and that's where we can add a fair bit of value, I think.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I'm really big like you on education and knowledge being a part of a part of my client's journey and empowering them so that they know what's coming, they know what to expect, they understand the process, they understand, not just the process, but they understand.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you are bringing that to your to your clients as well, giving them all the pieces of the puzzle so that they can, they're not overwhelmed or surprised, bringing them, as you said, bringing them up to speed and really educating them about money.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that element you're talking about there, that that education around the process that you do is so important as well.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've had a few people I've spoken to in the last week or so actually, and all of them have been really dissatisfied with the family law process.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one of them put it really well.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: They said, I never know what's going on, and I feel like I'm standing on quicksand because they never know what's coming next.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you've just said there is that, yep, you're here now, this all happened next, and then this and this.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just that is so valuable, I think, for people.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and it's definitely something that we've encouraged people to engage with every time because you don't want to keep getting surprised, you don't want to just have to make decisions on the fly.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to know what's coming down the pipe.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and what do you see?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: What impact does that that education, that empowerment have on someone's confidence?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And how, I guess, how do you support your clients to build their confidence around money and money-making decisions?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Confidence is really the biggest thing for us.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we see people when they are scared and they're intimidated and they've been buffeted by the process, you know.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, their lawyers doing everything they can, but they're not always there for every action the lawyer is taking.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Their ex is being a bit of a pain, they don't really know what's going on.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of our engagement, when they're confidently stepping into the new life, that's just fantastic.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a meaningful engagement for us.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it'd be the same for you.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that level of confidence people can have after that is just incredible.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And listeners, if you could see Jordan and I, we're both smiling, we've got both got big burrities on our faces because that is why we do this work.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: It really is, it really is.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you know, I've seen people that are in my line of work, there's a lot of complexity, and complexity can often be used to make unconfident people stay unconfident, if that makes sense.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and I hate that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to to really be able to stride forward into their new life.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: But how we do that is different for everybody.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: For certain people, we can just throw information at them, they love it, they learn as much as they can, and that's how they build their confidence, they start making those really informed decisions.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Other people at the other end, and if we were to bombard them with information, they'd drown and they would just completely hate and they'd fill out of their depth.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to be really careful about how we go about it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it is layer upon layer upon layer of knowledge in what they're doing and why they're doing it and why they're making those decisions, and building that context within which they're making those decisions so they can know that in the negotiation, okay, well, I've been offered X percentage.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: That actually translates to me receiving enough to do A, B, but not C, and maybe part of D.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I can live with that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you're slowly building up the conference over time.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I find that, yeah, that can really help them.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask you um to lead us through, you know, a typical client journey with you, but I'm probably guessing that there's no real typical, each one is different.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if I were to ask you, can you step us through a typical client journey?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or give us just give us a bit more of an idea about what it's like to work with you.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I you're right, there is there is no typical sort of process, and that's what really struck me coming out of that traditional financial planning side is all those engagements followed a course.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: These ones, it's so fluid and it's so different, but we are finding there are some similarities in where we do.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, we we are introduced to people by their family lawyer or by a family or friend member, family member or friend uh who's worked with us in the past, and where we step into the process really dictates the kind of work that we do.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's really early on, so they've just engaged their lawyer, it's really educational.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's about gathering that information about the family finances and putting together a picture for them and saying, look, here's the house you own, here's what you owe against, and all that kind of background stuff so they can go into that negotiation.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're finding we're engaged, getting engaged a lot more just prior to the negotiation, where we're working with people about what are their actual objectives into the future.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, not what do you want things to look like at Christmas?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's in five years' time, what would your life look like if this was a successful outcome?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a really involved and intense conversation, which I think works because that's what we do as financial planners.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge part of our work is identifying those goals.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we explore that, we will then go away and quantify them and put some numbers around those things and do that mechanical stuff, calculate out the dollar amount that you need and prepare three alternatives for them, which are here's the amount of money you need to get everything, here's the amount of money that you know would give you a pretty decent life based on our conversation, and here's kind of your bottom line.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't go much further than below this.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um they take that to the lawyer, and then that helps the lawyer with their strategy as well.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask you about something that you and I have spoken of in the past, which is wants versus needs.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I work with my clients on wants versus needs, not necessarily just financially, but can you speak to that, the wants versus needs?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it is kind of a tough conversation sometimes, I'm finding.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I see, I think we see it pretty similarly.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Needs and wants to me are quite different.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Needs are the fundamentals you need to live a life in Australia.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: You need a house, you need food on the table, clothes on your back, utilities, you need all that kind of stuff, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Fundamental level of standard of living.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wants are all the things that make life enjoyable.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the things that you don't need to live, but you'd like to spend money on.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Holidays, you know, furniture, new car, new phone, that kind of stuff.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where we see clients come into trouble is when they combine the two.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So when you start seeing wants as needs and prioritize them in your spending, um, that can lead to real trouble.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not immediately, but down the track, inevitably you will hit a bit of a brick wall where the money will run out.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where that's especially the case is through divorce, where people's um maybe understanding of needs and wants or appreciation of the difference doesn't change when their finances do.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So coming out of divorce, regardless, you will not have the same amount of income as you had going in as a unit, and your expenses will likely have at least doubled, if not increased, by one and a half.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't then re-examine your needs and wants within that new environment, you'll bring that brick wall a lot closer.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we do a fair bit of work with people just examining that and just saying, okay, well, maybe we need to make some compromises on the wants to make sure the needs are looked after, because spending too much on the wants today really limits what you can do, you know, tomorrow or down the track.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a really key distinction and it's a really key thing, I think, for people to get their head around because it can be quite quite hard.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're used to having access to financial situation or finances that support all of your wants as well as all of your needs, it's really easy for the line to become blurred that, oh, I still I need to still have that, even though it's actually not a need, it's a want.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably beyond sort of our purview, but I think you would deal with it a lot more.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: But there can be quite a lot of freedom that can come from getting rid of some of those wants.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's about, I work with clients about redefining how they want their life to look and feel.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those wants are actually not, they're imposed externally.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So reassessing and re-evaluating and going through that process is really crucial.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be really liberating to get rid of some of that stuff.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: 100% love it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Does some of that stem from you know your peer group, the pressure from your peer group during the marriage?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: That peer group often changes after the marriage, I assume.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not always, but sometimes it does.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I I talk often about the shedding of divorce.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's an opportunity, kind of like autumn, to let go of things.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a time when you actually get to choose.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: You can really re-evaluate what is important to you, um, including relationships, peer groups.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is this still supporting me?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Am I still aligned with this group of people or this particular person?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a want?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a need?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: All of that gets re-evaluated, reassessed.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, it's a time of shedding, of letting go, some stuff by choice, some stuff by necessity.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then it's a re-evaluation and stepping forward with the freedom to choose what you want in your life.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like you, I start at the end point, I start five, 10, even further, five, 10 years down the track.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you want that life to look and feel?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's start making decisions from where you are right now that are leading you towards that ideal life.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that your planning, your financial support does a similar thing.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how do you want your life to look and feel afterwards?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start making smart, educated, empowered decisions that lead you towards that life.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan, I wanted to ask you about your concept of what you call deliberate ignorance.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because it sounds a bit well, well, it's not something that many professionals would care to admit to bringing into their practice, to be honest, but you talk about deliberate ignorance.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean when you're working with your clients?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I thought pretty long and hard about putting that one out there because it is it's not really something.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, you don't want it on your business card, I think.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Jordan, I'm deliberately ignorant.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it's really in that first stage when we're working with people around what they want out of their life.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we've met them, it's pre the negotiation, they already know the details of the pool.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and my fundamental question is what do you want your life to look like in five years' time?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that sets off our exploration of what they're looking for.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I say up front, I do not want to know anything about what is in the pool at this stage.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do that later and we'll bring everything back to reality.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: But at this stage, I want you to tell me what your life would ideally look like without any of those constraints.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because what tends to happen is if we start talking about the pool first, the house is here and the soup is here and that's there, that then defines their reality and it limits their expectations or plans for their life.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I I like you mentioned earlier, divorce is a process, it's it's a crucible.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can define how things will look afterwards.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you will go through this process and you will have changed.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we want people to really broaden their horizons on what they want their future to look like.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I say it, I deliberately do not want to know anything about that pool.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can drive the lawyers nuts a little bit sometimes because then we'll go back to them with these numbers that don't always correlate with reality.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd rather do that so that our clients know what they're working towards.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we can have the conversation about the reality.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the pool to get everything you want out of life, you need$3.2 million.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Your share of the pool is only ever going to be one and a half million dollars.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: There is a gap there that we need to talk about and we need to bridge, and then we're we're making compromises, we're making trade belts, we're making decisions, but we're doing it from a place of this is what I want.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know really clearly, I've made a really informed decision about what I want out of life.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the reality: how do we bridge the two?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: If we do it the other way, people limit themselves already, and they they I guess they they limit the trajectory they can have in the future, and we try to avoid that by being deliberately ignorant.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so deliberate ignorance allows people to dream big, be expansive rather than be limited by reality.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Reality can come in later when you've done the big dr, you know, you've created the big dream.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as you said, it's about bridging that gap between dreams and reality.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Does it ever happen the other way where a client has this really expansive view of their life and the asset pool is well and truly sufficient, or their their percentage of the asset pool is well and truly sufficient to support that dream life?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: We have.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the funny thing is with those conversations, most people tend to remain realistic anyway.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't had too many real sort of pie in the sky ideas.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But we've had one case recently, it's actually presented a bit of a dilemma because that's exactly what happened.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: For them to achieve everything they could possibly, excuse me, everything they could possibly want out of their lives, they only needed 40% of the pool.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Their lawyer was pretty confident that they could get at least 50, possibly 60% of the pool.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um It's presented quite a dilemma for the lawyer, I think, because that extra 60%, I mean, their instinct is to get as high a percentage of the pool as possible, as it should be.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if that's going to take an extra six months of litigation or six months of dispute, where is that line?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the toss up there?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, I don't have to resolve that dilemma.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just gave them the report and left it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's a really challenging one.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's actually a harder outcome sometimes than the other way around.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it becomes a real moral and ethical dilemma and weighing up, as you said, the cost of time, effort, energy to fight the fight.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think for lawyers, that fear is always okay, in five years' time, if the money's run out for whatever reason, and you know, my client can say that we could have pursued 60%.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Why did we only go 40%?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a real fear, and I think it's a legitimate one.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a real challenge for them, I think.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you, Jordan, tell me a little bit about the planning solo six stones approach to life after divorce?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that's something that you've worked really hard on on building into the business.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love for you to share a little bit about that.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it forms the core of how we approach our advice for people coming out of divorce.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's something we're slowly releasing publicly because I think we can't help everyone, as you know.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are people out there that may not want our assistance or they may not have the sort of resources to afford it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we want people to be able to do it themselves, and we're slowly building that out.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there's six stones, and the idea is that these are the stones that you need to hop across to cross the river into your new life, into the new green, sort of verdant wonderland on the other side of the divorce.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So coming out of the divorce, the priorities for us are the six stones are manage, protect, improve, grow, use, and leave.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Manage is basically money management.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Get your fine, your budget under control.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you've not ever done that before, which many people haven't, it's a really good opportunity to explore how you would do that, your needs and wants, the income expenses.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a system around that that we've put out there.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: The next one is protect, which is really managing your downside.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's kind of insurance at the end of the day, but it's also recognizing the risks that you're facing in your life and making informed decisions about which ones you're happy to accept.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um not everybody needs insurance, not everybody wants insurance, but it lets them work out where they land on that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Improve is all about the debt side.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: We see some people come out of a relationship carrying debt, carrying part of the mortgage or credit cards or anything like that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we process that?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do we knock that down as quickly as possible?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because in my opinion, debt is an anchor that will hold people back into their new future.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we manage that as well as we can?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we have some advice around that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We work with some really good partners around there too.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Grow is this is probably what most people think about when they think about a financial planner.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's investments super, it's growing your actual wealth.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked earlier about that gap between achieving everything you want and what's available in the pool.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: We can work on closing that gap into the future, and that's where grow would fit in, you know, investment concepts and education.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Using or use is really about actually spending the money.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people coming out of divorce are so nervous and so scared of what to do with the money, is that they will often deprive themselves and not spend the money out of fear.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Completely understandable.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we do here is we try to talk about how might you use that money?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: What are some ways to prioritize things to spend?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because you should still be purchasing things, you should still be spending money on things that are important.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And a subset of that is for some of our clients that had a higher pool that they're working with, philanthropic discussions.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do we allocate money towards things that are important to you?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that in a really effective way?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: How do you maximize your impact?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really that's quite a cool um portion that we get to talk about.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And leave is uh it's basically what happens when you die.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do you leave your money as a will?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do you structure all that?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: How do you prioritize beneficiaries?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: How do you structure your affairs?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: All really uplifting positive stuff to follow for a divorce discussion.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's really important to get that stuff sorted pretty quickly after a divorce because particularly your will.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you had a joint will or your um not a joint will, if your partner now ex-partner was a beneficiary, you want that sorted quick smart.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And another big one for anyone listening as well is your beneficiaries on your super account.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um get them updated as soon as you can be and your insurance policy, sorry.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just make sure that it goes to where you want it to go, or else things are pretty awry.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's also a lot of peace of mind, I think.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a really big box that a lot of people don't tick in their mind.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're planning for when they leave.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's really important.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's and that closes the six steps, and then I'm really confident that people that have been through that process at the end of it, they are on a really strong financial foundation for their future and things will just go from there.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: It really puts them in a good spot.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, beautiful, beautiful.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all right, random kind of final question because I know I know you're seriously into music.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if you could choose one song to play for your clients when they're in the messy, messy middle of financial settlement discussions of divorce, what would that song be?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um right, that's a challenging one.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm I was born in the 80s, so all of my music references are still in the 90s, unfortunately.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so if it is a messy settlement discussion, um, but you're the kind of person that you can see the future, you you will persevere, you will get through it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Pure Shores by All Saints is a really, really lovely song.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: The lyrics are quite nice and it's about looking to that future and enjoying the moment that is to come.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just one song is impossible, Sylvia.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right, well, pick give me give me another, give me another one or two then.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: What else?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if the settlement's really getting quite contentious and you know there's there's an amount of money there that's causing troubles.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh there's a notorious BYG song.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Mo Money, Mo Problems.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Worth listening to and also worth checking out the film clip because it's got some excellent shiny tracksuits that they all wear and do some fresh dancing.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll drop the links in the show notes as we'll link.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's a Kelly Clarkson song, um, Since You've Been Gone.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's just a good song, regardless.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's just a cracker, but that's a really good one.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's uh I heard one recent.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Elson John.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm still standing.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Great choices.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, I'll drop all the links in the show notes, and maybe we can, you know, we might end up with a playlist.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for being with us today and sharing all of that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think especially for sharing that music.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, tell me, tell us where can people find you?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: How can they take the next step if they would like to explore working with you?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and oh, do you work with clients who are not going through separation and divorce?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if that was something that, yeah.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So where can people find you?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and are you open to working with other clients as a financial planner, even if it's not finance, uh, even if it's not separation or divorce related?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cool.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh website's the best place to look, uh, planning solo.com.au.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're on Instagram, so it's Planning Solo FP.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm pretty active personally on LinkedIn, if you connect to one there.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and more than happy, there are links everywhere to just book in a time for us to have a chat, uh, you know, 10-15-minute chat to see if we're the right ones to help.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we'll go from there.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of who we work with, yes, we will help anybody that needs any sort of assistance around finances.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're finding a that's a growing part of our business.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Our focus is still on divorce and separation.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, if anybody has any financial questions at all, get in touch.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: If we're not the person to help, we'll know who he is and we'll be able to pass on their details for you anyway.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thank you so, so much for joining me here on the podcast today.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a fantastic chat, lots of awesome information for our listeners.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, thank you very much.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Sally.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: That was fantastic.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberation.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.