Latest / Mythmakers / Andy Serkis Reads The Silmarillion - The Verdict (Season 4 Premiere!)

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Andy Serkis Reads The Silmarillion - The Verdict (Season 4 Premiere!) · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm
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  an author but also director of the Centre and today I have a very special guest. We're
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  joined by Andrew Head who lives in Australia. Andrew is a great friend of the Centre. He's done
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  several of our courses and I've interviewed him before about audio versions. One of the many gifts
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  that Andrew brings to us is that he's looking at this from the point of view of someone who is blind.
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  So obviously audio versions of books are incredibly important to him and I regard him as something
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  as my guru, my expert on all things fantasy. So hello Andrew. Hello and thank you for that lovely
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  introduction. Over the last few months there's been a big event in Tolkien's 50th year since he
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  passed away and that is the audio version of the Silmarillion has just come out read by Andy
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  Circus. This follows on to his previous contributions to the Tolkien audiobooks where he read the
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  Hobbit which I think started a lockdown project and then he went on to read the entirety of Lord
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  of the Rings. Now he's turned his attention to the Silmarillion and we're going to give our thoughts
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  on that production but first of all before we do that for people who haven't read the Silmarillion
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  and think oh maybe rather than sit down and read it I'll try as an audio. Andrew why are they going
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  to get if they've come from Lord of the Rings and they turn to the Silmarillion what are they going
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  to get as a listening experience? What's in it basically? Well the Silmarillion is basically a prequel
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  if you will to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and it's details a vast scope of the history
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  of Middle-earth particularly focusing on the first age and the second ages of Middle-earth of course
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  everything in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings takes place in the third age. The other thing of
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  course to mention is the Silmarillion is not it's like a set of working papers that Tolkien had
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  and it was customously edited by his son so we're getting something which has another person's
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  hand upon it which is Christopher Tolkien. Yes it's broken down into a number of parts so the
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  first part of it there's a couple of creation narratives and then there's the big chunk which
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  gives the title to the book which is the story of these jewels the Silmarils which is the first
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  age of Middle-earth or the world and then there's a second age which for those of you who are following
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  and watching the Rings of Power series that's set in the second age that is about well one of the
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  main narratives is what happens to the Land of Numenor which is the land where arrogance ancestors
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  come from and also the making of the Rings of Power and then the third age is the one as
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  you as Andrew just said that where you've got the story of the Lord of the Rings right at the end
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  of that age. Okay so we're looking at a long history book basically and what would you say
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  find in listening to the style of it? It's very it's certainly the way it's written it's um
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  because as you say a lot of tales and papers were cobbled together or brought together by Christopher
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  Tolkien, Gerard Tolkien's son so it reads more like a history history book rather than a novel
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  but you do get you know it still has stories as history books do but they're condensed some of them
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  some of the details are a bit condensed and some of them are some of the details are going to a bit
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  more depth some of the stories I should say going to a bit more depth that's a bit of an interesting
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  mixed bag of uh styles here. Yeah I think perhaps it's a bit similar if you're looking for an
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  equivalent dare I say it's a bit like reading the Bible you've got different kinds of styles. Oh yeah
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  yeah and the thing is that it's written by the elves so whereas the Lord of the Rings is written
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  by Bilbo at Frodo and a little bit by Sam that's the conceit there so it's seen by the the ordinary
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  folk of the Shire the Silmarillion is written by let's imagine some Elvish historians sitting in a
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  ivory elven tower somewhere so it means that they are looking at things from a sort of great
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  height they're not down amongst the weeds and walking through the countryside in the way that
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  you get the lovely sort of physical details in Lord of the Rings of actually the experience of
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  the landscape though there are exceptions to that there are some tales where you do actually
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  feel the presence of the landscape much more acutely so as you were saying Andrew some of the
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  details are there but it's not it's not an adventure story in the same way it's like sitting down
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  a bit like sitting down to say read the Bible and if you're a talking fan you probably will feel
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  inspired to do that but if you're not a talking fan you'll probably think my goodness this is
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  strange this is a strange experience okay so we've actually done podcasts on the Silmarillion
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  so if you want to go into more detail about this do dip back into our earlier episodes
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  anyway um Andrew let's get down to the nitty gritty of why we are talking today and that is
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  what's yours feelings I know that you and I have both listened to the Andy Circus reading of it
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  give me your top three takeaways from the experience of listening to it well I think the Andy
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  Circus is reading itself the voices that he does especially he certainly got away with voices
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  the Lairong in particular oh it's quite shocked by but it's not wrong the dragon the
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  yes yes the large dragon the terrorizers now got rond and touring yeah his voice was quite
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  definitely made you think of a large lizard like creature very hissing but also deep and very
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  menacing pull that off very well certainly the yeah the way he the tone that he Andy Circus reads
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  reads this particular book in really lends itself to the aisle visual the high writing style that
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  it's sitting it certainly paints the picture of it being a large sweeping history do we say
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  and one one very important one very important thing I got from reading it especially in a from
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  and so I say an accessibility point of view it starts off with Andy Circus reading the preface that
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  Christopher Tolkien wrote and the forward and then it goes on to do part of a letter that
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  J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to a friend explaining the plot outline of the Somerillian and the Lord of the
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  Rings because for those that don't know Tolkien wanted to publish the Somerillian and the Lord of
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  the Rings as one large book called The Sagar of the Jules and the Rings but the publisher
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  you know realized that the Lord of the Rings itself was going to be a long enough large enough
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  task so he persuaded Tolkien to focus on the the Lord of the Rings first and do the Somerillian
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  later yeah that's really good point just as in the Andy Circus version of the Lord of the Rings
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  he reads the some of the appendices which you don't tend to get other versions I also
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  be valued that I've actually got I've got a first edition of the Somerillian so I don't have
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  in my edition those other two pieces which must be now regularly within the actual Somerillian
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  books you buy the second I've got the one with the first forward has been and later forward plus
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  this letter and I agree with you that letter is very helpful indeed it's you know it's like a crib
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  you know yeah what it cliff notes cliff notes to the Somerillian and I really enjoyed listening to that
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  as well my my top three that's one of them the other is I really thought he did a good job on
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  the pronunciation oh yes yeah because that's the thing which I presumably he's had experts next to him
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  but there was there seemed to be you know maybe there's some super experts out there who also know
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  he got the intonation wrong or the emphasis wrong but actually I felt he managed this quite arcane
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  language really well and then the other thing yeah certainly in old English isn't it were more
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  old English style well yeah he's like the venerable bead kind of style isn't it yeah chronicles
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  and then the other thing which I think picks up on your point about the voice for the dragon
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  is that when there were chances to dramatize it he really went for it and and it could show you how
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  it could be in a way that there's this this dramatic story that just needs a bit more writing
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  to make you turn it from this chronicle to a novel and I really enjoyed that like you when he was
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  doing the talking dog who on and others you know there were little moments where I really really
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  enjoyed it and I find him very easy to listen to I'm a bit brainwashed in the same way as when
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  my kids were growing up I got very used to listening to Stephen Fry chuntering away on the Harry
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  Potter sort of saga that they all listened to at different stages it sort of went into the bones
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  after a while I got feeling that listening to Andy circus read the Hobbit then the Lord of the
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  Rings and then the Silmarillion it's kind of have the same effect I'm going to start hearing
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  in my head whenever I read the book which isn't you know there's not a bad voice to have so I
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  think you did an excellent job of the actual performance the actual reading of it so
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  Andrew but when we've talked about these versions before you and I have both agreed that we
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  really liked the earlier version which I think was only from maybe 2015 it's not that old the Martin
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  Shaw version reading of the Silmarillion do you have any words to say on that I mean if someone's
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  already got the Martin Shaw version do they need to get this one what would they be missing
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  out if they didn't get this one well they're certainly missing out on the extra information you get
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  in the forward and the yeah preface and the talking letter because Martin Shaw version doesn't
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  have it so if you're you know especially from a blind person's point of view I was quite
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  I did not expect those three little beginning parts so I was quite chuffed to and it's always
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  interesting to to read more on Christopher Tolkien's point of view and Gerard Tolkien's point of
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  view and Christopher Tolkien in particular provides good insight into how and why he wanted to
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  publish the Silmarillion after his father passed away I think that the Martin Shaw is very you know
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  his voice is lovely it's a very another voice that not that dissimilar to Andy Circus it's resonant
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  it's got a sense of gravity about it I would say that he has a couple of little mannerisms which
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  Andy Circus has avoided and Tolkien rather overuses the word therefore and when it comes up in the
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  text and Martin Shaw lands rather heavily on that therefore therefore and I once I noticed that
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  I got a little bit um okay and Andy Circus doesn't do that I was listening out for it
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  so I think that possibly the Andy Circus narration has that edge just as an
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  an territorial voice he gives it more variety he pushes the drama a bit further I wouldn't have
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  thought there was a huge amount of difference between the narrations in the chapters where
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  they're less dramatic episodes where it's more an account of the ages they're just two different
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  voices but I would say if we're going to sort of do a toss up between the two I would now go if I
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  was starting a fresh up now go for the Andy Circus one yeah so I think I would too but it's always a
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  bit of a I guess it depends on your mood because I do still quite like Martin Shaw's version
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  he has a great voice as well as you say so yeah next next reading next time reading round I'm
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  unsure which one I will do well there's nothing stopping us shuffling between the two
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  yeah it's a bit of a variety have one voice read one chunk one voice read another I can see an
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  advantage to doing that oh that's a good idea the other thing I like about the Martin Shaw
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  version is you get music in that one sort of at the at the end of each of the main sub stories oh yes
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  you're right although I love it you're right there's great music it's like a sort of
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  picks up the feeling of the the incoming tide and you know it's got a really atmosphere
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  yes you're right they should have done that with the Andy Circus one yeah I think it's the same
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  publisher so they missed a trick there yeah lovely punctuation marks yeah it really adds
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  adds a bit to the atmosphere and effectiveness of the tale yeah it seems to do music as much in
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  audio books these days well didn't they also this is us being quite you know not many people
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  will have noticed this but I think the old Lord the Rings reading by I've got his name Robert
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  Ingles also have music in at the end of each book it does yes yeah bring that the music
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  so let's talk about our favorite parts we can put aside you know the two narrators well done
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  both for sitting there and reading quite a difficult book what is your favorite part of the
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  Summarillion if you were just going to dip back in and listen to one or two chapters what would
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  you go for oh now I've stumped you there haven't I yes that's a difficult one well you said
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  it a couple so it would have to be Baron and Lucian and then yeah it would have to be the
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  accalamus or the downfall of Numenor oh okay that's interesting so Baron and Lucian are like the
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  precursor to Argonne and Arwin they are a man and an elf will fall in love and talking identified
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  very much of Baron and Lucian in fact on his grave stone he and his wife are known as Baron
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  and Lucian so it was his heart story and I completely agree I think it's two chapters
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  one of in the anti circus it's extremely well read as well and it has the talking dog so what's
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  not not not to like there's the folkloric structure of the hero being set an impossible task
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  he has to go and get one of the Silmarils from the hand of Melkor who's like the biggest
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  baddie of them all in his is very much like one of those fairy tales he sets off and Lucian who
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  is actually really the hero of the tale let's face it she goes with it array one of the
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  what's the word are we allowed to say kick ass pair of ends of talking doesn't feel very
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  tall yeah feisty I'm not sure I'd go for the Numenor section but I would go so it is fascinating
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  I actually like the poetry of the language of the very beginning which is the Ina I can never say
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  this I know I know linda lay yeah that is the setting up of the world I love the image of the
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  music and how it's described it this does feel very biblical oh actually meltonic in the way it's
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  described and I just think it is such the language is so beautiful I wouldn't mind if it was
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  martin sure or anti circus both of them read it very well so perhaps on my either or I'll do
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  martin sure for that and then I'll do baron and luthian with anti circus and then everybody's
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  happy to that I pick and then the last question to you is which of these stories would you most
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  like to have seen written up into a full length book you told me before we started this call that
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  you've actually read some of the later curated longer length versions of these stories and you
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  have views on them like to share us those views and then tell us what you would like to have seen
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  written up in the same way as a sort of Lord of the Rings style book yes well we've got the
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  children of urine which is a full length standalone novel it's had you know parts from the
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  Silmarillion and unfinished tales that aren't quite exactly the same brought together and then
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  a bit from the history of history of middle-earth I believe as well turned it into a yeah full
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  length seven hour audio well book but the audiobook seven hours and for those that don't know that
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  is read by the wonderful Christopher Lee who played Saruman in the movies so that's well worth a
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  listen that one and then you have baron and luthian and the fall of gondolin there the other two
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  longer tales and there's bits you know bits are from the Silmarillion and other papers that
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  have all other writings that have been brought together but they're actually they're actually
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  interspersed with the so you get story but then interspersed with Christopher Tolkien's notes
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  and sort of showing you how the stories changed over time so you get characters with different
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  names and different happenings in the events in the story and then Christopher Tolkien's writing
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  come in and explains how it's changed over the many many years then you get the next part that's
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  oh I don't know I put it similar sort of shows the story evolving over time
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  so it's it's what the successive drafts of the story yes yes that's it thank you yes and you
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  sort of all brought them together and you still don't get me wrong you still get the the story
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  and as I say it's interesting to hear that but it does if you're expecting a story it does
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  at times make it a little bit tedious and a bit difficult to get through even for me who enjoys
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  hearing more about the process as a an author it can be a bit challenging to get through
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  yes because what you're really listening to is a story of how a story is written isn't it rather
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  than the actually a kind of a spring matter yeah and the nice thing the way with the audio
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  versions of those books is they have a father and son Timothy and Samuel West and Timothy
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  reads the Christopher Tolkien part and then his son Samuel reads the actual
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  story that Jared Tolkien's written it so it helps if you're listening to it it helps break it up
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  a bit and helps you focus better because you've got two different voices and you're like
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  how this voices this part so I think if you're listening to it you have an advantage over if you
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  were just reading it it might be even harder to understand at some points that's a very good point
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  they also do an excellent job on the unfinished tales where they do a similar thing yeah so another
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  all the audio versions I've come across all are pretty good actually I've not come across a
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  dead version I think they offer different pleasures so if I was taking if I was taking oh I
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  haven't you haven't answered yet the question about which one you've treated as a Lord of the
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  Ring style book you know a proper yes it narrative from the point of view of some characters
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  having an adventure and I gave that spiel so that people would understand why I'm about to
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  say what I'm about to say so I would even though in a sense Baron and Lutheran is a standalone novel
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  now it is but it can't with with with the breaking up of Christopher Tolkien's explanations
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  throughout the story as opposed to in a prologue or an epilogue or a forward or whatever you
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  want to call it it makes it a bit tricky and I was expecting that it would have been the say both
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  would have been both Baron and Lutheran and the fall of Gauntler would have been the same as the
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  children of Huron where it is a standalone novel from cover to cover so I you know I was really hoping
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  and would have liked Baron and Lutheran to be a standalone seven hour book the once the story
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  started it continues on and I don't know maybe there just wasn't for whatever reason as much
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  details there was with the children of Huron which is why there was a lot of explanation and
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  examples of the different drafts put in but still it would have been nice
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  right I'm going to give a different answer so that which is good I think having sort of pondered
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  this for a while now that actually where I would go as a storyteller is I would tell the story
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  of Elrond and Elros and their parents Arendelle and Elwing which it comes at the end of the first
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  age why because there's a hostage story of two children taken hostage by the two remaining sons
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  of Fiano who are holding them hostage and there's a fight over a duel and it's I won't spoil it
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  because it's got such a dramatic end where well it's been out now for quite a few years so I'm
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  not really spoiling an end but I think the actual art story arc of what happens to the sort of
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  they're not exactly bad guys because they're conflicted they're not like Melkorgo's just evil
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  they're interesting shades of grey bad guys which make them more interesting
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  and Elrond and Elrond are the young innocents they're the like Hobbit style perspective which
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  you need in the story to make it relatable so I think meeting and they then have the choice
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  themselves between immortality or mortal life I think that whole thing Tolkien estate needs a good
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  novel happens to do it but find someone else if not I think that'll make a really really good novel
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  or a good series if you were looking for future places to go because it's so engaging
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  yes and I'm very glad you mentioned that because I'm actually if that was to ever happen I'd
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  actually be quite excited about that because yeah you've got that and then you've got you know all
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  the Elrond's going to Numenor and setting all that starting all that and you know get a more
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  in-depth young years of Numenor when it was newly established island and then of course you
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  and this would have been really interesting when of course event because Elross has chosen
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  the path of men and he's mortal so he eventually passes away and I just think
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  you know to explore that and how Elrond you know copes that his brother's gone that would have
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  just been wow yeah I think that makes yeah in terms of a novel you'd probably finish it there
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  wouldn't you you could finish it there that's like a epilogue with the brother dying and
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  some sense of what's to come anyway it's already I've already written this in my head
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  I know I know they they control everything so fiercely that you know this is just on my wish list
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  but that's what I would have asked talking to do if he was still with us or if they let somebody else
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  have a go at it they do would use the rights at all for the first age that would be where I would
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  go as the storyteller because it has it brings in the history of the Silberills but at the right
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  at the end of it all when when the when they're in the fate of the Silberills is actually settled
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  anyway yeah I doubt anyone's listening from the Tolkien in state but that's what I think
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  has story potential and you thank you so much for talking this through we always like to end with
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  where in all the fantasy world is the best place for something and on this theme of
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  narrators and stories I wonder if you've got an idea of where is all where is the best place to go
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  and listen to a story have you ever sort of thought oh I'd really love to be in such a such a
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  location and listen to a story told by one of the storytellers of legend while you're thinking
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  about that I'll give my answer and I think I would like to go and there's a very sweet book
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  called The King of the Copper Mountain it's a Dutch story book and it's about an old King who's
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  dying and every so often there's a knock on the door and in order to keep him alive the doctor who's
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  treating him has sent different animals to tell him a tale to keep him happy whilst he looks for
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  the medicine to cure him but the ones that come are so surprising you know there's the more
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  predictable fox and what have you and then there's a swarm of bees they can't tell the story
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  and then there's a dragon bit out of their field I think that'd be really to be with The King
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  of the Copper Mountain waiting to see what animals going to come through next have you got a
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  face for story telling I'll give two so my last answer was it'd be great to be in Rivendell
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  with the elves and listen to their listen to the epic tales told by Eloronda or one of the other
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  elves over a feast and the but I also think another good place would be Kev Haravelle in Narnia
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  and I'd certainly like to ask what we don't what we don't get when reading the chronicles of Narnia
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  what we should have do with the horse and his boy but I'd like to get asked Peter Susan Edmond
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  and Lizzie for more stories of what they did what they mean in Narnia what did you actually do
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  yeah yeah you know we hear so much and so much in especially in a horse and his boy so much is
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  alluded to but yeah we really don't see too much of that that's a lovely thought I think I'd
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  also like to ask some of the talking animals tell their tales from their point of view that'd be fun
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  of course yes of course yeah great place thank you so much Andrew for talking through the
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  Andy Circus reading of the summer really and I think we both are giving it a thumbs up
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  aren't we which is nice absolutely thank you very much for listening thanks for having me again
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