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Andy Stanley - Moral Leadership with Angela Ahrendts Apples former SVP of Retail · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed
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out of the administrative weeds and back to growing with Balay. And now let's
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jump into today's content. Today, I am honored to have Angela Errants back
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in the studio to talk about moral leadership. Angela, thanks for coming back.
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Great to be back. Well for those of you who don't know and
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for those of you who missed last month's podcast, which by the way,
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you need to go back and listen to last month's podcast if you missed it.
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Angela is the former senior vice president of Retail at Apple, where she
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integrated Apple's physical and digital businesses to create a seamless customer journey for over a
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billion visitors a year, and everybody listening to some extent is one of those
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visitors. Prior to Apple, Angela serves as the chief executive officer for Birbery
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in London, where she led the company through a period of phenomenal global growth,
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repositioning Berbery as a really a global luxury brand. Currently, she's serving
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on several boards including Ralph Lauren, Airbnb, Charity Water, and she's the
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board chair for Save the Children International, which is one of her great passions.
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As I mentioned last month, I actually met Angela and her family on
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an Alaskan cruise, had lunch with her and her family and thought, Wow,
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she is the real deal. So you're in for a treat today.
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And today not to recap what we talk about last month, we're just going
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to jump right in and talk about something near and dear to her heart,
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and that is moral leadership. So Angela, let's just jump right in.
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What is moral leadership, especially when we think in terms of marketplace leadership.
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You know, it's a whole series of things. But just to keep it
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simple, I just to me, moral leadership is just always doing what's best
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for the greater good of the whole, not yourself, not your best friend.
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You know, you're a part of something bigger. You're a part of
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a collective, an organization, a team, a band, and moral leadership
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I mean, said another way, it's kind of servant leadership, but more
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leadership maybe gets a little bit more traction. And two things immediately come to
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mind when you say that. Number One, nobody listening would disagree. In
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fact, anyone who's working for someone else wants their boss or their manager to
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be that person. The problem is when you find yourself as the manager,
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or you're running the franchise, or you own the business. Because the conflict
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a little bit is ambition sometimes gets in the way of moral leadership. And
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we've all seen that happen, and I'm sure you've seen that happen, So
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talk a little bit more about it, and specifically, what are some steps
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leaders can take toward a posture, because it really is a posture, a
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posture of moral leadership. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you
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know, I always say that it's that little tiny word called ego. Yeah,
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that little word, big problem, right that I've always told the teams,
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you know, check your ego at the door, or take your ego
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pill, you know, to keep it at bay before you come into the
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office, because again, it's not about you. So you know, you
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sit at an organization and you have a mission and you have a purpose,
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and you get everybody together and agree on that. And so to me,
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the simplest thing you, first of all do is you make sure that you
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have all the right people and then anybody you bring in, are their values
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aligned. I always say that it is not just their background and their experience.
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I will hire for openness, I will hire for values and empathy.
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And yes, of course you have to have some of the experience. But
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some of the smartest people in the world have been the greatest failures because again
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it's about them. And so to me, it's the team you're putting in
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place and making sure all of those values and everybody everybody's so aligned behind the
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same mission. But then I always say, but now, as leaders,
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it's also your moral obligation to be so present and so aware because I always
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say, whatever business you're in, you're in the human business first, and
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so you have to show up and you have to look people in the eyes,
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and you have to be authentic and they have to feel you. And
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if they feel you and they trust you and they believe in you, then
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now you're a part of this collective. You're a part of But that starts
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with again, with more leadership. That starts with I like you, I
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trust you, I believe in you. And is it possible? I mean,
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I guess the answer is yes, but I'll ask it anyway. Is
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it possible to discern those kinds of intangibles in an interview process? I mean,
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you have led to enormous companies that have done tremendous things, and you
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turned one around. I mean, I'm sure you've made some bad hires along
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the way, you know, I guess we all have. But apparently somewhere
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in the interview process, not even just who you're interviewing, as the company,
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creates an interview culture, that's part of it. Somehow. How do
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you do that? What are some things you learned along the way about that?
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And it's a really great question, and I would answer I would answer
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it twofold. I'll answered my left brain way, which is the framework I
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put around it, and then my right brain way is if I'm really hesitant
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on someone like I like what they're saying, but my instincts say that,
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then I'll either take them to lunch or meet them outside of the office and
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go for a walk. And I have not hired people because of how they
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handle a host at a restaurant wo or the waitress at the table. And
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if they don't say thank you and they're not gracious and kind, they're not
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going to be aligned to the values of what we're trying to create. Wow.
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So that's kind of the qualitative way. But the framework funny enough that
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I've kind of put around it and it suits me. Maybe it suits other
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people. But I've always said that by the time they get in front of
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me, I want to figure out how I Q or EQ they're lead right.
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Will their heart move them first? Will they be compassionate and empathetic or
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are they just going to be hardcore and just let their intellect drive them.
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Then I always want to know are they more left brain or right brain?
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Are they more analytical linear? Is that the lens they put everything through or
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are they a creative thinker? Are they a bit of a dreamer? Right?
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Because it's important in a creative business to understand. But then the third
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thing I also want to know is I always say there's different types of people.
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There's yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I don't need a dreamer who
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can't put something into motion, but I don't need someone who's also looking backwards
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all the time and so afraid of moving forward. So I always want to
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understand that balance. So for me, it's iq EQ left brain, right
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brain and yesterday to day. And that's my own personal framework that I have
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questions. I ask around that I can get a pretty good feeling of who
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they are. But you know, I had a guy at Berbery one time
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that came to me with the most incredible credentials, but I didn't I didn't
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feel good, and the recruiter kept calling me. It was a big hire,
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and I said, I think there's going to be tissue rejection. I
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don't think the culture is going to accept him because I think that he's too
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left brain and he's not a creative thinker. And I gave her all the
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whatever, So she begged me to interview hi one more time. So anyway,
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he came back and I said, so they wanted me to give you
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a second chance. You heard my hesitations, and he said, I'm actually
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a concert pianist, I'm studying Mozart on the weekend and whatever can share tow
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and I'm the chairman. I've had daughter's ballet company. And he went off
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on all of these creative but because of his backround, he wasn't comfortable going
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there with me on an interview. Right, did you hire him? I
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ended up hiring Yeah, But we got to know each other. And my
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thing is, again, people put on this facade I'm an executive. I
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looked like this I'm and it's like, no, that's not how great leaders
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are made, you know. And the higher up you go, the more
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personal you need to be, the more authentic, the more you need to
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connect, and the more people need to see the real authentic you, then
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they'll be with you. But if you come in and you know you've got
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to you're all buttoned up. But of course, if I was interviewing with
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you, I would be so careful, right, I mean, isn't that
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just part of it? Well? You know, I can hear them laughing
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through the three inch glass to my left, right. I mean, there's
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there's there's some of that that just comes with, oh my gosh, I
9:50
really want to land this. But anyway, yeah, yeah, but I
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also think that they're going to be interviewing a lot of people, and you
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know what, in these businesses, you meet a lot ofelebrities, you meet
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a lot of politicians, and so you know, you have one first.
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Impressions are lasting, You have one chance, and you represent the company,
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not just inside but outside. Right, That's what a moral leader is.
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I mean, And you know, and I've always said, I want people
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to be so curious why I am who I am. I don't care if
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they think I'm odd, I don't, but I want them to say wow,
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like I felt her, and then I want them to go deeper.
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Yep. That's amazing. Can you review one more time those three tiers that
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you personally take people through in the interview. That's amazing. Yeah, absolutely,
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yeah. I mean IQ and EQ, I Q and EQ. The
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second one left brain right brain, which is just creative thinking right or analytical
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and that's somewhat job specific, right, I mean, I don't want a
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creative accountant, Honestly, you know, I want them to do it right
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every time, and not I want them to have good judgment in their field.
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You do, But I used to say that the CFO at Verbery,
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the reason she was so powerful was because she was twenty percent right brain.
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She and she did think creatively. It wasn't about the numbers, but she
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understood the business and where investments at different points in times there still maybe there
11:09
wasn't a return. But she trusted my instincts and would bet on things that
11:13
Christopher I wanted. And if she didn't have that creative think and that open
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mindedness, if she was so, you know they call them being counters.
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If she was so, then we wouldn't have been able to move as fast
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and to make the investments that we needed to quickly make eq IQ left brain,
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right brain in the third one yesterday, today or tomorrow. That is
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amazing. So have you ever not hired someone just because couldn't put your finger
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on it. There's just something in me, and don't ask me to explain
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it. It's just this is just a no. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
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and this is so. My instincts have never failed me, and only
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when I go against them do I regret it. Wow. And I have
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heard that from so many leaders, and I have my own stories that I
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should have trusted my gut, but I let people talk me into or no,
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no, no, we got to look at the data, you know,
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and the next thing I know, I've smothered my intuition. That is
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such an important takeaway. And then also what you said, and we talked
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about this last month too, the fact that the higher up the organization you
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go, the more transparent and the more personal you need to be. When
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I do more present, the more present the my I think I've shared this
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on our podcast before. Whenever I do a three sixty, the negative bucket
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is always andy, you're not personal enough and you don't express enough personal interest
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in the people around you. And my pushback is always, well, my,
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and it's incorrect. It's well, I'm trying to be professional. I'm
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trying to be careful, and you know, the feedback is stop, we
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don't need that. We trust you. You know, you're you're the boss
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list, you know, so anyway, that's powerful and the fact that intuitively
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you have led that way is amazing. Before we continue, as I mentioned
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at the top of the broadcast, our spa ballet is offering their leadership Toolkit
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time you will be back to doing what only you can do, which is
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growing your organization. So jumping back in moral leadership, what can we do
13:24
practically or what can an organization do? And what can a leader do to
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start doing more along these lines and again to build this into the culture.
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And you touched on the first thing, which is it starts with us,
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right. I mean, if it's not real in us, the people around
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us are going to sniff that out in a minute. But what else can
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we do? You know, I'm sure you found this. And this is
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going to sound so soft more, but I'm sure that you found this.
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The higher up people go, the more they talk because they think that but
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they think they're supposed to know. They think that, oh, I'm up
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here and I'm supposed to have all the answers right, And I argue that
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it's the opposite. I think, the higher up you get, the more
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you need to listen. And the more that you listen, the more engaged
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people will be. And this is what builds strong moral leadership. So and
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again it's you see it everywhere. I don't care if it's politicians, right,
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they have to know and they don't know. And as fast as society's
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moving, you know, with AI coming in, none of us are going
14:22
to be that smart. So it's business is changing rapidly. Everything is changing.
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So our job as moral leaders is to unite and to bring out the
14:33
best human And how do you do that? You listen, you get more
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personal. As we said, you become so authentic. And it's interesting companies,
14:43
they're companies over here and often they don't think of them as living,
14:48
breathing cultures, et cetera. But I found it so fascinating during the pandemic
14:54
when all of these companies, Apple, these huge companies went from selling consumers
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to saving lives, right, creating masks, doing everything ventilators, I mean
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everything they could, and so how amazing. And now the shift needs to
15:11
be to serving communities, and their organization is a part of that community.
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So it's we've got we've pivoted. We've got another base. And I argue
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it's ripe for moral leadership to come in now and to take where we are
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and to unite it even further. But you're only going to do it if
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you know what you know, and you know what you don't know, and
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you come in so curious and ask questions, don't make assumptions because you don't
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know. And in this you know socially the world is flat. They see
15:48
right through it. I think you have to listen, and I think that
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you have to let your guards down and just open up and be so present,
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so away, so authentic in everything you do. And that's how people
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will come into the company. That's how you'll unite, and you'll and again
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we already covered, you've already hired the people with the right values and the
16:11
right behaviors and the right This is just how do you keep it going.
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So I think it's so simple. I don't think that it's rocket science.
16:19
You said in an earlier that again, I think it's another big idea.
16:22
You said moral leadership. You know, sometimes it's called servant leadership, but
16:26
you like the word moral because you didn't use the word gritty. But it
16:30
is a little bit gritty and to the point you just made. When we
16:33
think of morals, we think in terms of right and wrong or best and
16:37
not so best, or moral is what's good for you versus what's not good
16:41
for you, And that is better than servant in a way, because you
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can serve a person in the wrong direction. You can just decide I'm going
16:48
to serve you based on what you want or what you need. But moral
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means I'm going to bring my intuition insight into the decision making process and I'm
16:55
going to lead, but I'm going to lead with the good of the person
16:57
in mind. So coming out of the pandemic, as you just said,
17:02
to ask the question what is good for the community and what good can we
17:07
do in the community that's good for the community? I mean that is moral
17:11
leadership. And sometimes you know, we all ran into this. People push
17:14
back on the idea of moral absolutes or right and wrong. But you can't
17:17
lead without some sense of some things are better than others. So that's that's
17:22
why. And moral to me, to your point versus moral to me takes
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it to a higher level, oh much higher. It's just your moral obligation.
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It is your calling to use all of your assets to make the impact
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you can make while you're on this planet. Otherwise, what's the point of
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being here? Yep, that's uh, that's powerful. To use the word
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moral means I'm doing something wrong if I don't do what's right. It's not
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just an option. This is not only the right thing to do. It
17:49
is a moral imperative for the organization. That's that's amazing. So, Angela,
17:56
I'm sure there are many examples of this in your career where you felt
17:59
like this isn't just an opportunity, this is something we have to do,
18:03
whether it's going to be profitable or not. But in light of the company
18:06
and a lot of the opportunities and light of where we're positioned in the community,
18:08
this is a have to. And that's where moral leadership comes into play.
18:12
Sometimes that you're looking at a decision through a little bit different grid,
18:15
there's a moral imperative. And last month, and again for those of you
18:19
missed last month, you got to go back and listen. I think your
18:23
transition from Birbery to Apple is an example of this because your conversations with Tim
18:30
where hey, I don't need a job, I love what I'm doing,
18:34
and if you won't allow me to do this thing through Apple that I believe
18:38
must be done, I'm not coming. Is that accurate that I couch that
18:44
correctly? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely was that moral leadership
18:48
on your part in terms of yeah, and again it's it's me feeling that
18:52
I have a moral responsibility that I have been trained and taught and each step
19:00
of the ladder that I've gone up, whether it was the work in New
19:03
York, you know, and then Burbery, And I've often said that I
19:07
think, you know, had I not worked for the big conglomerate in New
19:10
York twenty two different businesses, I never would have been ready for the global
19:14
complexity of a Burbery and working with creatives, you know, et cetera.
19:18
And had I not done Burbery, with the globalness of that brand and all
19:23
of the political relationships, et cetera, and I would have never been ready
19:27
to take the position at Apple right. And had I not done Apple,
19:33
I never would be in the position to be sharing save the children, especially
19:37
at a time like this in society, with all of the conflict and the
19:41
hunger, et cetera, et cetera. So, and I hope I'm sitting
19:44
here in ten years saying that, looking back and saying that because because it's
19:48
probably not Probably it is the most daunting challenge that I've taken on as of
19:52
yet. But I think that each step there were moral challenges at Birbery,
19:56
just in setting up the foundation and getting the board everybody to agree to lean
20:00
in, et cetera. You gave what one and a half percent of the
20:03
profits, and the profits in a way so that felt to you like a
20:07
moral imperative that wasn't act. Oh they don't want to do that, I'll
20:08
just move on. No, that's no, we have to do. That's
20:11
what The bigger we get, the more we have to give, you know.
20:15
And I've been raised at whatever I give, I get tenfold in return,
20:18
So it's just normal for me. So but it's kind of the same
20:22
thing at Apple when we asked what should they be doing their communities, and
20:26
they felt so strongly what we should do for those different constituents in the community.
20:30
So then how do we create And maybe Apple is the largest company on
20:33
the planet, I did feel it was, you know, it was their
20:37
more responsibility. They had every asset. How do we just organize those in
20:44
a way that are entertaining and engaging and totally free to strengthen everybody in that
20:49
community who might need it at that point in time. And so it's kind
20:53
of the same thing with save the Children. I mean, there is the
20:56
greatest moral imperative right now is the greatest global hunger crisis of our generation,
21:02
and it's only going to get worse, you know. And there's eight hundred
21:04
million people that go to bed hungry, food deprived every single night. And
21:08
that was before the earthquakes and before the Pakistan floods. So yeah, I
21:12
mean I feel so incredibly blessed and this phase of life if I can use
21:18
whatever experience and expertise and passion, and it's just uniting people on a different
21:25
level, you know. Now it's a calling out to every corporation, what
21:27
are you doing? You know, what are you doing? And maybe it's
21:32
two percent not one percent, And I don't care. If it's I hope
21:34
it's saved the children because we do incredible work. But if it's not,
21:38
there's UNISEEP, there's World Vision, there's incredible organizations, and it's going to
21:42
take everything that every NGO, every company, you know. I love the
21:49
ESG because this is the s this is the social responsibility. You are not
21:55
a business anymore unless you can lean in and you take care of the community.
22:00
You know a lot of companies do incredible things, but the world's a
22:04
real big community too. Well, you just made the point around the question
22:08
I was going to ask, so I'll pose it this way. So you're
22:11
confident. This is what I want our podcast listeners to hear. You're confident
22:15
that regardless of what business a person is in or where they are in the
22:18
business, there is an opportunity to leverage whatever influence they have for that thing
22:26
that must be done for their community or for the people in their community.
22:30
And when a team or a company discovers that, great things happen, absolutely
22:36
and it unleashes human energy because there's something about giving rather than receiving that's energizing,
22:44
empowering and matures. And I heard an amazing person a few years ago
22:51
on TV and it gave me such clarity in terms of where I could lean
22:56
in, and it was it was amazing because it was you. And you
23:00
did an incredible series on what breaks your Heart? Oh wow? Yeah,
23:07
and kids break my heart because it's not their fault. They just got the
23:11
wrong lottery ticket depending on where they were born. And after I heard you,
23:17
I have used that over and over and over, and to me,
23:22
that's how great moral leaders can decide what they or their company should lean into,
23:27
what breaks your team's heart, because only then when you lean in with
23:33
everything that you have. We can't drop these mics. They break too easily.
23:38
But can I tell you, Andy, that is so true. I
23:41
thought you were going to quote my dad. Now that is so true.
23:45
It was that was like, that was like such a huge moment for me.
23:48
And I've used it so many times. Well, Angela, that is
23:53
all the time we have. We are all in tears, even the people
24:00
behind the glass over there. So thank you so much for being here,
24:03
and to all of our listeners who want to thank you for joining us.
24:04
Please make sure you visit the Indy Stanley dot com website where you can download
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