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21. When Religion and Law Collide · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast, where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie. Judah: And I'm Judah. Frankie: And what fresh hell begets us today, Judah? Judah: Okay, well I've been meaning to do this for a long time. Today we're gonna talk about missing and murdered indigenous women in North America. And this is a topic not frequently covered by mainstream news sources in the United Frankie: I wonder why. Judah: States. Yeah. indigenous Americans are actually per capita the number one racial group to experience police violence or police brutality. And so many sources leave native peoples out of the conversation. And this has been ongoing you know, violence especially against women, indigenous women, has been ongoing since we you know, us whiteys colonized. But today it is just a massive problem. So my sources were NIG violence against American Indian and Alaska Native Women and Men, written in 2016. The Urban Indian Health Institute snapshot of 71 US cities from 2018. Not one more, not invisible act commission findings. This for the Federal Department of Justice. I read a American Bar Association summary of that. That's from 2023. There's a tribal court clearing house article on the Violence Against Women Act and a case that I'll talk about called Oliphant. An article from Colorado University Boulder about something called MAN Camps, the US Attorney's Office, District of Oregon Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons Program, and Investigate West on Oregon's limited progress. And I think If we're gonna pick one source to send people to, the National Indigenous Women's Resource Center website, they have a whole page on missing and murdered indigenous women. I would say like that's a really good one stop and gives you opportunities to get involved. For Canada, 'cause I included Canada, Department of Justice, Canada has a fact sheet from twenty 17 for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, a Royal Canadian Mounted Police 2014 national overview report and a national inquiry final report entitled Reclaiming Power and Place. So I was trying to go to a lot of different sources to try and take in the scope. The Federal government of Canada, I'll say, has compiled better statistics, but Frankie: Again, I wonder why. Judah: But violence against indigenous Canadian women and girls is well like our two countries have this similar problem. Okay, so just to get into some of the more horrifying facts, more than four in five American Indian and Alaska Native women, so over eighty-four percent have Experienced violence in their lifetime. about 40% of American Indian Alaska Native women reported experiencing violence in the last year. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: 56.1% reported sexual violence, which is a significant increase from white women who were surveyed Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: by over 25%. And almost fifty percent, forty eight point eight percent reported having been stalked. that is a United States like survey of indigenous women who they were able to talk to who are not missing or murdered. The Frankie: Right. Judah: United States keeps really poor tabs on how many indigenous women and girls are missing and murdered in the United States. And there was a survey from the Urban Indian Health Institute looking at just some of those specific cities, those seventy six cities, and they found of their survey of those seventy something cities, five hundred and six unique cases. Which even in just those cities is likely an undercount. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: Law enforcement does not do a good job in the United States recording correct ethnicities on the missing persons report and that study found a number of indigenous women were marked as either white or Hispanic. They're just brown. Yeah. Frankie: They're just brown. That's just yeah, mm. Judah: just general brown or hey, everybody's white now, which doesn't count. So it's ridiculous. And so this is not a problem on reservations. Seventy one percent of surveyed American Indians, Alaska natives live in urban areas. Frankie: Right. Judah: the statistics really on the National Indigenous Women's Resource Center, a lot of them are from twenty twenty four. Frankie: Hm. Judah: But On the whole, in America, homicide is the third leading cause of death among indigenous women aged ten to twenty four. in twenty twenty-four of all the people that were reported missing, ten thousand two hundred and forty-eight were reported as being indigenous, and like we've already covered, there's an underreporting. And five thousand six hundred and fourteen of those people were women, and the majority were actually girls, were under eighteen. Although because of a federal law which is absurd, native Hawaiians are not considered legally indigenous. They are And sixty-four percent Frankie: What? Judah: yeah, it's a whole thing. That's why native Hawaiian children are not qualifying for ICWA when they're removed from their homes is horrible. Frankie: my god that's so dumb. Judah: It is so dumb. In Hawaii, they did a survey of reported human trafficking victims, Frankie: Mm. Judah: and sixty four percent were identified as native Hawaiian or part native Hawaiian. And the really horrible thing is this resource center were they tried to track down like the cases of missing indigenous women who they knew were missing. And ninety-five percent of those cases had not been covered by mainstream media at all. Frankie: Well it was the same thing with like when Elizabeth Smart was missing, there was also another person of color who was missing around the same time and like Elizabeth Smart got all of this coverage and everybody was like, Who's this other chick? Yeah. Judah: They call it like missing white women syndrome that the media will focus extensively on, you know, affluent or conventionally attractive, especially white women who go missing, and they will not focus at all on people of color, especially women of color. But to get holistic data about like how many indigenous women are currently missing in the United States, how many are killed every year. We don't even have like the racism and the anti indigenity is so bad we don't have enough to even give a rough count. Frankie: Right. Judah: Period. In Canada they have some slightly better record keeping and it doesn't present like a happy story even if the United States numbers are approximately the same. So in twenty fourteen the Royal Canadian Mount Police did this review of the year and they found there was actively a hundred and sixty four currently missing indigenous women that they knew of and one thousand and seventeen indigenous women who were homicide victims. That represents eleven point three percent of all missing women and sixteen percent of all female homicide victims for the country, despite indigenous women only representing approximately four point three percent of the population. So they were missing at three times the rate and murdered at four times the rate of non indigenous women. And in the Yukon province the statistics Frankie: Yeah. Judah: are even worse. It's twelve times higher for indigenous women murder rate and in Saskatchewan the murder rate for indigenous women is eleven times higher. Frankie: Wild even 'cause isn't the Yukon known to be a little bit more densely populated by native populations? Okay. Judah: I'm not I don't know enough about the Yukon territory to opine on that. so indigenous women represent this particular trifecta of discrimination. First, they are women. Second, they are people of color. And third, in particular, that they are indigenous. That represents its own specific category. Frankie: Right. Mm-hmm. Judah: When I was looking for like, hey, why is this happening at this extremely elevated rate, there has not been much on causes. And that's why I pulled up that Colorado University article because that's like the only one where it pointed to like a Particular cause where we could point to increased violence against indigenous women, and that was studying what they call man camps is these groups of temporary working camps for oil extraction, and the relationship of those camps being close to populations of where there's a lot of indigenous people, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: increasing violent crime. So it's pointing that violent crime rose thirty percent in the Backin or Bakin Oil region where these camps were while the workers were there, while it fell four percent in other places in the region, and that Frankie: Wow. Judah: yeah, and that most of the camp workers were non native. So Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: now I'm gonna get into some legally stuff because we are a legally podcast. Frankie: Yeah. That legal podcast. Judah: We are a legal podcast. So this is specific to the United States, and for our listeners who don't understand, so tribes have a degree of tribal sovereignty, which means they're kind of an independent country living inside of United States territory. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: So, for example, if I was to go to like the Grand Ronde Tribal Reservation, which I believe is in Polk County. Frankie: Yep. Judah: That when I went there, I would be inside the boundaries of Polk County, but I wouldn't be in Polk County. I would be on sovereign tribal property, and they have their own government Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and structure. So native individuals who are living on their own reservation, they don't pay county taxes, they don't pay state taxes. Whatever the taxing structure is for their tribe, that's what They're adhering to, but they're not paying these other taxes to the state or to the county. and for almost forever, tribal courts had no criminal jurisdiction over people who were not in their own tribe. And that is because of the case from 1978, Oliphant v. Susquamish. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And it says, hey, like, you have no authority over these people, even if it occurs on tribal land, which leads to a jurisdictional nightmare because technically the tribe is the only one that has jurisdiction over tribal property. And Frankie: Mm-hmm. That did not stop Cow Creek from calling in DCSO to deal with drunk people on the casino property. Judah: that is true. but some tribes have agreements with local law enforcement or like sheriff's offices that they can come and they have authority on tribal property, but without that agreement, even the sheriffs would have no authority on tribal property. that particular distinction matters because ninety-seven percent of indigenous female victims had experienced violence from at least one non native perpetrator. So indigenous women are experiencing huge amounts of violence from let's just go ahead and assume it's mostly white guys. Frankie: I think that's a pretty safe bet. Judah: And those men were just getting away with it. Wholeheartedly getting away with it Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: in most circumstances. In 2013, the Violence Against Women Act restored tribal jurisdiction over non-Indians for crimes involving domestic violence, dating violence, and stalking order violations. And in 2022, Congress added some more. covered crimes under this special tribal criminal jurisdiction. But many violent crimes, violent crimes, fall outside of those categories. So if we're thinking about the huge amount of violence inflicted on indigenous women by non-indigenous people on tribal property, there's a huge amount of that crime that is essentially not prosecutable. Like th it Frankie: It's not domestic violence and it's not stalking. Judah: Yeah, there's horrible violent cri crimes. Frankie: Turns out there's all sorts of stranger on stranger violence that happens. Judah: Yes. and that jurisdictional gap is a huge problem for at least enforcing the law. when those cases are reported. But when cases are reported and prosecution begins about half of indigenous women are not even offered services during Frankie: Kidding. Judah: the course of the prosecution through their victim services. About Frankie: What the hell? Judah: about half. Not offered, not provided services. Frankie: Why? Judah: so even if I don't know, racism intergenerational racism. So if a woman who, you know, has not been murdered and taken off somewhere and dumped so she can't speak for herself, if she is speaking for herself and she's going through this really incredibly incredibly traumatic Frankie: Traumatic trauma. Judah: and emotionally difficult, re traumatizing process of trying to bring her perpetrator in front of the court, about half of Indigenous women are not Provided services. So that is more than twice as likely as white women to need services they cannot get. Frankie: It's terrible. Judah: that is terrible. in Canada, who has better data, just that big twenty fourteen study, which is not great, like it's over ten years old, but Frankie: Yeah. Judah: it's still like, hey, we're going out for the data we can get. Frankie: We're trying. Judah: seventeen percent of homicides of indigenous women happened on a street, road or highway. Compared with only one percent for non indigenous women. And a particularly egregious example of this is apparently kind of infamous in Canada, British Columbia's Highway of Tears. So, I mean we call it fresh hell. This is ongoing hell Frankie: Mm. Judah: and I don't have like a hopeful like thing to end this story. Indigenous people in the United States, the United States actively tried for years and years and years to commit genocide against to Frankie: I was gonna say to exterminate them, like Judah: exterminate native peoples through mass genocide of hundreds of different unique indigenous ethnic groups. When that didn't work, we tried to make indigenous people white by kidnapping their children Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and putting them into boarding school where we are still uncovering mass graves of little teeny tiny children's skeletons. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And Along with the African American population, indigenous people are incarcerated, which is just a f at Frankie: Much higher percentage, yeah. Judah: a much higher rate, which is the fancy word for state sponsored slavery. Frankie: Yep. Judah: And the reason the Indian Child Welfare Act exists is because at the time of its creation, after we couldn't kidnap children to put them into boarding schools away from their family and their culture to try and make them white, which is a form of genocide, that is Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: cultural genocide. So it's ongoing genocide. One out of every two native children in the United States were at the time removed from their family and placed in the child welfare system, which is another form of cultural genocide. Ha so I will Frankie: Yep. And but the thing is like if a tribe was not incorporated and had their like contract or whatever with the United States when ICWA was passed, those native kids do not qualify for ICWA. Which is like Judah: Yes. Well like Frankie: I had a client from a tribe that was a Canadian tribe and so they didn't have the contract with the United States. And so her kid didn't qualify for ICWA And it's like the dumbest form of bureaucratic red tape that I can think of. Judah: so the United States will still not and has like really dug their heels in on recognizing any kind of native Hawaiian sovereignty, organizations. No native Hawaiian children are protected under ICWA, they're not protected under like any kind of barely there programs for indigenous people and there is still a few years ago a university was like hey we want to build a telescope on this mountain and it was known and like registered as a sacred site for the native Hawaiians who were still living in the area there and these cultures are even after all we have tried to do to murder them are active, vibrant, independent cultures. And so it would be super duper great if we could figure out how to stop letting people kill, kidnap and traffic indigenous women and girls. That Frankie: Friend friendly reminder, it's been less than eighty years since we illegally overthrew the Queen of Hawaii. Judah: That is a good friendly reminder. Frankie: It's not that long ago. Judah: a peaceful like Old functional, very functional, independent society. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Where we said, Well, we'd really like to put a military base there and make this like a fun vacation land. And Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: so that trauma for native Hawaiian people is is fresh, is very fresh. Alright, let's hear about so Frankie, you are up. What topic are you telling us about today? Frankie: I telling us about So I don't have a spooky topic, but I do have spooky earrings. I've got little skeletons Judah: Ooh. Frankie: hanging from my ears. so I'm talking about an individual who got a speeding ticket. My sources are articles from the Standards UK office, the Scotsman, and Clip from Qur'an.com, which I will put in the show notes. I love hearing the Qur'an chanted. It is just so beautiful. And you can play that on this website. I will drop that in the show notes. So Mohammed Anwar was a 51-year-old restaurant owner living in Scotland. On August 21st of 2007, he was caught speeding going home from work. He was going 64 in a 30. Doubling the speed limit usually triggers an automatic license suspension, but he wanted to avoid that. And we are talking in miles per hour because it is Scotland, not any other place that would use the metric system. Judah: Wait, Scotland doesn't use the metric system? Frankie: No. No. They they use English standard. Judah: Which is a hot mess, but good for them. Frankie: Yep. So mister Anwar did plead guilty to the speeding, but he argued through his attorney, who is named Paul Nicholson, that a license suspension would be a hardship because his two wives lived almost sixteen miles apart. One *wife lives in Glasgow, and the other one lives in Motherwell, and he spends alternate nights with them. He also needed to drive to his restaurant in Falkirk, Stirlingshire, which is almost twenty four miles from wife one and almost twenty eight miles from wife two, and it's a restaurant he's had for almost thirty years. Judah: I'm thinking he's gonna get himself some new problems. Okay. Frankie: No, actually. So in a strict reading of the Qu'ran, it allows up to four wives, provided you can properly support and care for each one equally. Anisa four three, which is the surat that I will be putting into the show notes, translates to if you fear you might fail to give orphan women their due rights, if you were to marry them, then marry other women of your choice, two, three, or four. But if you're afraid that you will fail to maintain justice, then content yourselves with one or those bond women in your possession. This way you are less likely to commit injustice. Judah: I'm not thinking of the Qur'an prohibiting this. I'm thinking of the country of Scotland. Frankie: well yeah, it's illegal in Scotland, but he didn't get in trouble for that. Judah: Okay. All right. Well maybe 'cause he wasn't legally married and Frankie: Yeah, the articles didn't get into that. Judah: Okay. Frankie: they did mention that bigamy is illegal in Scotland, but maybe there's a religious exemption. I don't know. I did I didn't I wasn't able to to find anything on that. but the Qur'an does very clearly say you may have two, three, or four wives, but you have to be able to treat them all equally, and if you can't, then you just get one. So When Mr. Anwar was brought in front of the Aridrie Court Sheriff, John C. Morris to answer for his actions, he argued that if he could not drive the 16 miles between his wives or the 24 plus miles from either of his homes to work, he would be forced to violate his religious duties to give both wives equal attention. Sheriff Morris allowed him to keep his license, but he was fined 200 pounds and given six points on his license. So I don't know specifically how Scotland's point system on their license works in terms of how many you need to get a suspension, but in areas where there's a point system for the license, Oregon is not one of them. New York is, I used to live in New York, certain violations can lead to certain points on your license. and I'll talk about New York system because I'm very familiar with that. In New York, a non-moving violation will not put any points on your license. Judah: Like a parking ticket? Okay. Frankie: Like a parking ticket will not put any points on your license. but any sort of moving violation will put anywhere from three to six points on your license, depending on what it is. And if I recall correctly, it takes either six or eight points to suspend your license in New York. and so like stuff accumulates over time and over time it can fall off if you do classes or stuff like that. but it also the way that People get out of moving violations in New York is that the law has created a legal fallacy loophole that a parking ticket is a lesser included of any moving violation because when you get pulled over and you're parked, say on the side of the freeway, right? you're parked on the shoulder, it's illegal to park on the shoulder. It's called parking on pavement. Judah: So people are like, I've got a speeding ticket and I'm gonna plead it down to a parking ticket. Frankie: Yes, I've done that before. I've actually done and I've Judah: Sure Frankie: actually like I had a blinker violation and a speeding violation in the same transaction and they pled it down to two parkings on pavement, which was actually technically an illegal sentence because I only parked on pavement once. Judah: But you didn't want two moving violations. Frankie: But I did not want two moving violations because that would have suspended my license. Judah: Sure New York. Sure. Frankie: Ha ha ha ha. Judah: Sure. Frankie: So anyways, Mr Anwar wound up with six points on his license and a two hundred pound fine, but was able to keep his license, it didn't cause that automatic revocation that would have happened for the speeding ticket for going double the speed limit. Scotland has a road safety charity called Break. Lorna Jackson, who's a spokesperson for that charity, called the result of Mr. Anwar's case, quote, astonishing. this is like the mothers against drunk driving kind of thing in Scotland. Ms. Jackson was concerned about people going even a couple of miles over the speed limit being dangerous, and the laws are there to protect people. She said quote for the courts to allow someone to keep their license while they have so blatantly flouted the law and put people's lives at risk on the basis of an excuse such as this is astonishing. When interviewed later, mister Anwar refused to comment on his home life and indicated that the lack of a license suspension was based on his need to run his business and that his wives were secondary. And this is probably because British law has outlawed bigamy, but it doesn't say anything about him getting in trouble for having two wives. Judah: I mean I frankly, from the bottom of my heart, could not care less if somebody's married to more than one person as long as everyone is truly consenting adults. Frankie: Yep, and he was concerned about performing his husbandly duties equally and appropriately for both of these women. They seem to have an arrangement. And it's legal under Islamic law, and he was a practicing Muslim, so Judah: Yep, I mean Seattle just issued some protections for polyamorous groups. Yeah, which is Frankie: Which is fantastic. I mean, like Judah: great. I think that's great. I just think this probably made the news because he had two wives. Otherwise it would not have. And so there's that element of like Islamophobia and racism. Frankie: There there is a little bit, but I also like because Islam gets such a bad name because of like people associate it with the radical Islamicists, which is not true Islam, right? true Islam is very internally focused on bettering your self I majored in Islamic and Middle Eastern studies. Like I have my degree in this shit, right? you know, you talk about the greater jihad and the lesser jihad. The greater jihad is actually your internal struggle to become a better Muslim, your internal struggle to become a better person. And so while the sensationalism of this article likely was rooted in Islamophobia, I actually appreciate highlighting somebody who is practicing it properly. Judah: and dedicating equal time and obviously the women, you know, consented and it worked for them. I have 'cause I was planning on doing this in the future, but we should do a talk. So I've purchased this book by an Islamic scholar, Heaven on Earth, A Journey through Sharia Law from the Deserts of Frankie: Mm. Judah: Ancient Arabia to the streets of the modern Muslim world, because Sharia law is so grossly misunderstood and vilified. Frankie: It is super misunderstood. It's all it is is just following the Qur'an and if you look at the progression from the Torah to the New Testament to the Qur'an, it has a lot of the same basic stuff in it. It's just literally different iterations of it. Right? It's it's the book was written later in time, if we're looking at it as a quasi historical document. And in the Qur'an, Jesus is a prophet, not son of God, because that's not a thing in Islam, but Jesus is a prophet in the Qur'an. So it's just the next step in things. It's all based on the same God, same theories, same history. It's just written later, so there's more history behind it. Judah: Yep, so I mean, multiple wives is also legal in the Torah. Like so and Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: there's no prohibitions against it in the New Testament, so not that much different. Frankie: Right, but the Qur'an is very specific about if you can't take care of more than one wife, you don't get more than one wife. Judah: Well I mean so Frankie: Which is I mean Judah: I hope Mr Anwar is no longer speeding and that he's very happy. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Is that what you've got for the speeding ticket case? Frankie: That's what I've got for the speeding. There was not a lot on it. It was just one of those like in the list of strange defenses and that's all I found on it. Judah: So I'm gonna be doing I believe this is going to be the second to last spooky season case that we're doing. Frankie: Yeah, I think that's right. Judah: and this is a good one. How much do you know about Pope Formosus? Fantastic. I'm gonna go ahead and throw the interesting bit out front. Pope Fromosis was put on trial and convicted after he was dead for between seven and nine months. And this is known as the cadaver synod. And I Frankie: That's a good name. Judah: love it. This is one of the wackiest. You know I love a wacky trial, and that I'm a Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: history nerd. This is one of the wackiest. So let's back it up. so Charlemagne is the first Christian emperor. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And notably screwed up a lot of the elements of Christianity Frankie: Wee bet. Judah: wee bit, but he was also a Roman emperor. So Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: this goes from Christianity being understood as like a Jewish cult Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and being persecuted to a large degree at certain points as being anti-empire to Christianity being the empire. this is when really Christianity and Empire get tied together. And there Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: is a now deceased biblical scholar who likened that union to being similar to the marriage of ice cream and cow shit that it doesn't do much to the cow shit, but it really screws up the ice cream. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: And it really screwed up how Christianity was operating prior to then. So This is also a time of instability in the Empire or in central Italy. And Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: between eight hundred and nine fifty AD, there was and we could only say about there was about thirty-four different popes. That's a lot. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: And right before Pope Formosus was Stephen the Fifth. And Stephen the Fifth was Pope for six years, but before him was Saint Adrian the Third, which is the first Pope that we know for sure was murdered, although John the Eighth is almost certainly murdered. So John the Eighth was Pope for ten years, murdered. then it came Marinus the First, two years, probably natural causes. Saint Adrian the Third, one year, murdered, probably. Died mysteriously while traveling to Germany. Then you have Stephen the Fifth, Pope for only six years, natural causes, Then we get to Pope Formosus, who I'm gonna be talking about the most, probably natural causes. Then we have Boniface the sixth. He was probably poisoned after only being Pope for fifteen days. Then we have Stephen the Sixth. He was also murdered. He was Pope for about a year. He was imprisoned and then strangled in his cell. Frankie: Did they not like have the conference that like everybody agrees on who's gonna be Pope back then? Judah: So there's so much political maneuvering and different like old family alignment. And the Pope is like in this time period, and there was like this also continues. There wasn't that much drama like before John the Eighth. But then in in this really short, less than 30-year period of time, we have one, two, three, four, five, six. Seven, eight, nine, ten popes. like several were murdered or imprisoned. Like, this is not natural causes, and the papacy and the political maneuvering are inextricably intertwined Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: to each other. So what led Pope Formosus to being put on trial, probably after he was done caring. He was dead between seven and nine months. And his body was exhumed and propped up like rotting corpse during the trial. yes, it is so weird. Frankie: Why not just try him in abstentia? He's dead anyways, you can't punish him. Judah: It's it gets crazier than that. I love this trial. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: so I got my information from the UGM Cadaver Synod Encyclopedia entry, the Formosus of Rome Orthodox Wiki entry, the cadaver synod from the medievalist dot net. My favorite article does come from Atlas Obscura talking about the church. That this was held in, where there's like they're trying to forget. it's also called the Cadaver Synod, the You Catholic Cadaver Synod, and Historyet's Cadaver Synod article because this is so great. So Synod being like a church trial or church Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: justice. So let's start with who Formosis was. He was a super ambitious guy, and in eight sixty-four. He is promoted to become the Bishop of Porto, which is a Catholic region in Portugal. so bishops only handle certain areas, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and he's that area. He begins carrying out missionary work in Bulgaria Frankie: As you do. Judah: and was apparently very successful in increasing his power. Pope John, famously murdered, takes umbrage with this and accuses Formosus, he's still alive at this time, of deserting his post in Porto and aspiring to the papacy. So John the Eighth. Excommunicates Formosus and his followers. Then this guy was murdered. Then we get Adrian III and Stephen V. There's so Frankie: So if the Pope who excommunicated you dies, are you unexcommunicated? Okay. Judah: Not automatically. Okay. So after John is murdered, then we have Marinus the first. Also, John VIII, somebody had poisoned him, but the guy that poisoned him thought it was taking too long, so then bashed him over the head. just a fun side note. so that between there we have Marinus the first. Only Pope for two years. Saint Adrian the Third also murdered, probably. and then Stephen the Fifth. And he's Pope for six years. And Stephen and Formosis are like buddies. And so Stephen what's called rehabilitates him or unexcommunicates him and grants him back into power and so Formosus is continuing to like grow in power and authority and he still had some. And then after Stephen the Fifth dies, Formosus is elected to Pope. And there's already like a mess going on. so there's Central Italy is being fought over by the Spolotin family and the East Frankish kind of Germanish King Arnulf of Carnithia. And so they each want the imperial crown. Formosis kind of aligns himself with this Spoletin family, and I'm probably butchering that name. So forgive me, descendants, you're probably fine. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: And He was being pressured to make Guy the Third of Spoletio's son Lambert, which is a great name. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Lambert. It's Guy and Lambert into making Lambert co emperor. And then Formosis kind of turns against Guy and goes to backing Arnulf from Carnithia for this emperor role. And he appeals to Arnulf for help against the Spoletans, and this pope ends up crowning Arnulf Emperor in Rome. And so this has turned this Spoletto, that's probably a better pronunciation, against him. So he's pissed off this big, powerful, old, rich Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: family during his papacy. Then Formosis runs into some problems. Arnulf gets struck by paralysis and heads back to his homeland in modern day Germany. Even though he's technically emperor, the person who assumes power is Lambert from the Spoleto family. And so like Formosus at that point, like politically, is fucked. And he was on his way probably to like getting murdered or imprisoned because he backed the wrong horse. But luckily for him, he dies of natural causes. But so just so you know, when he died, he's screwed. He is succeeded by Pope Boniface VI, the famously only in office for fifteen days, Frankie: Fifteen days. Judah: and then Stephen VI gets elected. Okay. So I couldn't find in any of the records like is Steven the Six like legitimately crazy or was this all a political move? Frankie: I mean, back Judah: But he Frankie: then it's pretty easy to be the former and still have power. Judah: Yeah, so we've got Stephen the Six, unrelated to Stephen the Fifth and Frankie: Right, 'cause they just pick names. Judah: Yeah. And he comes to power as the Pope as like, you know what? We're gonna put Fermosis on trial for the crimes that he was already on trial for and excommunicated for before he became Pope. Frankie: And then re communicated rehabilitated, whatever it's called. Judah: Yeah, then rehabilitated. and unsurprisingly, Stephen the Six is closely affiliated with that Solito family Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and the acting kind of Emperor Lambert. And so he's putting on this whole show for the guy that crowned somebody else as emperor and then wound up like skedaddling out of there. So like this guy's back in Germany. He's now he's just out. So for the proceedings, the rotting, actively rotting, notably disgusting dead guy is propped up on a throne and st Frankie: Throne Judah: Yes, and Stephen the Sixth appoints a deacon to like talk for the dead guy. So he's like, You're gonna pretend to be the dead guy and you're gonna talk for him. And the deacon's like, I don't wanna get murdered, and apparently says almost nothing. he charges Formosis with several violations of canon law, including perjury, and serving as bishop will actually a layman. The Pope runs the trial himself, acting as the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner. And it it's Frankie: That sounds so fair. Judah: it's noted that like for a lot of the trial, that the actual alive pope is screaming, screaming at the dead pope. Frankie: Just screaming at a corpse. Judah: Just screaming at a corpse. and the dead guy is dressed up in like his burial garments, like his papal vestiments is what they're called. And so Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: because he's already dead and Stephen the Six can't kill him again, he orders him stripped of his papal vestiments and the three fingers on his right hand that he used to bless people cut off. He then buries Fromosis in like an obscure plot of land to try and keep his followers away and then shortly thereafter that orders that he be exhumed again and thrown into the Tiber River. Frankie: So I just can't find him at all. Judah: So they can't find him. But this doesn't go even at the time this was when the word got around about this corpse trial, people were like, that's hella sketch. And Frankie: Mm-hmm. Hence why I think maybe we are on the the the crazy and not the playing for politics side of the scale. Judah: Yeah. He there's a riot that ensues because of the corpse trial, and Stephen the Sixth is imprisoned and then strangled in his cell. There's then Pope Romanus in 1897. So Formosus dies in 1896. Boniface comes, 1896, two-week guy. Stephen VI is Pope from 1896 to 1897. There's two more popes in 1897. Theodore II died mysteriously, probably murdered after only 20 days in office. So we are really Going through Pope's quickly. And then we have Frankie: This is one of those like your name gets put in and you just take it right back out of the thing. Judah: god, it is so Romanus is Pope first, very briefly, he immediately annuls Stephen VI's actions, but is overthrown. Then we have Theodore II, who also annulled all the actions of the Cadaver Synod and reinstates Formosus's acts and ordinations, so like the people he made priests and like all of his stuff is still good. He claims to have recovered Fromosis' body from the Tiber. I doubt it. Like we know that Catholic relics, a lot of them are somebody else completely. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: But the person he claims like that he found who is Fromosis is buried in St. Peter's. Frankie: I mean, he would have been missing fingers. Judah: But they were cut off. Anybody can cut fingers off a corpse, Frankie. Frankie: That's fair. Judah: John the Ninth, who comes after Theodore II, also condemned Stephen Sinod, burned the records, and banned the practice in the Catholic Church of trying people after they were dead. Frankie: good. That's a that's a good decision. Judah: Then we have Pope Sergius III, who comes four years after John IX is in office. He had participated in the cadaver synod. He Frankie: Mm. Judah: reinstated the decisions against Fermosis, demanded the reordination of the bishops Fermosis had consecrated, and had an epitaph inscribed on Stephen VI's tomb to restore his name. Frankie: my god. Judah: For centuries, people thought that he like this is. The worst weekend at Bernie's ever. Thought that Sergius Frankie: Right. Judah: re re exhumed Formosis for a second trial and beheading, but Frankie: My Who we think may or may not actually be him. Judah: But so this guy went through so much drama after he was dead. So just to recap, was put on trial by Stephen VI. Those actions were annulled by Romanus, re annulled by Theodore II, the affirmed re annulment by John IX, and then those annulments were reversed by Sergius III. Frankie: Why were people so invested in this dude? Judah: It's all about him and his political connections Frankie: Mm. Judah: and the will of the people and who was like actively in power at the time. And there were so many popes. so like I stopped at 900, like counting, but people getting murdered, and then one Pope badmouthing the last pope, and we can't really even find a lot of super accurate records of what popes actually did, because people can't tell if their successors just made it up to badmouth them or it actually happened. Frankie: Right. Judah: So there's this kind of famous thing I think it's called the Banquet of the Chestnuts, where they said that this Pope hired sex workers to crawl around naked during a feast and pick up chestnuts with unrecorded bodily orifices. We don't actually know if that happened. There was another pope that was reported to have died while being sodomized by a page boy. We don't know if that's how he actually died. Because like all these official historical records for over a hundred years could just be shit talking. Frankie: Right. Judah: And so when I'm saying like well it's probably murdered, maybe murdered, is to try and rely on non-canonical or non-church records to like Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: figure out what actually happened. All sometimes there weren't any and people were like, well, I'm gonna destroy all these records. I'm literally gonna rewrite this record and I'm gonna put it back in. but in that time period, like right after so from 900 to 950 AD, like right after Benedict IV. May have been murdered. Leo V, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: murdered, less than a year in office. Sergius the Third was not murdered. He did participate in the Cadaver Synod, but he had a highly violent and controversial reign. going just to nine fourteen, like we're still in the same fifty year period, John the Tenth was deposed by a Roman noblewoman, imprisoned and smothered to death with a pillow. the person after him, Leo VI, died mysteriously after seven months in office, possibly murdered. The guy after him, Stephen the Seventh, unknown cause of death, possibly murdered. John the Eleventh supposedly died of natural causes, but he was confined to house arrest at the time of his death. Then we have *natural causes for the next guy, but then Stephen VIII died of natural causes, but Probably as a result of being maimed and severely injured during a political coup prior to his death. Frankie: Dying from one's injuries is still murder. Judah: Or because of a political coup, this cadaver synod is officially called the Sekulum Obscurum period. But for as much as the Catholic Church today wants to dress up the papacy and make it this fancy separate, you know, God given thing as like you had literally dozens and dozens of popes Stabbing each other, arranging murders, poisons Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: connected to political families, people arrested, house arrest. But for somebody who loves the drama, I thought that the trial of a dead pope really fits squarely into the purview of this podcast. Frankie: Yeah, that's fantastic. That is not a story I'd heard before. Judah: I don't think a lot of like, it is not advertised in the regions that it happened. It is really embarrassing. Like what's Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: known as like a lot of it was kinda like shushed up. Cause have how embarrassing it was that one alive pope was screaming at a rotting dead pope, cut off his fingers, then we buried him, then we exhumed him, then we threw him in a river, maybe we got him out, and then we buried him again, then we maybe exhumed him again, and maybe then also beheaded him after he had his fingers cut off and then reburied it. Like we have a lot of historical TV shows, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and I want a historical TV show covering the papacy from about eight sixty seven. to about nine fifty. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and I'm just gonna just do a little rough count just from John the Eighth, who was eighteen seventy-two, all the way up to nine fifty, so that's seventy years. We had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three different Popes in a seventy year period. Frankie: That's a third. Well averages out to one every three years, but yeah. Judah: Yeah, so let's do seventy divided by twenty-three. So the average Pope was in office for three point oh-four years. I don't have particular issues with our current Pope. and when you read back on a lot of these historical popes, he's absolutely killing it. In the metaphorical, fortunately, not literal, since Frankie: Mm-hmm. yeah, it not in the not in the literal sense, yeah. Judah: there was so much literal killing. I'm happy to have introduced you to this fantastic Frankie: Yeah. Judah: like cloak and dagger. Sometime in the future I will cover so you're right that this election spirit for who's electing the new pope, the gathering of bishops. There's a particular incident where they changed the rules about that gathering because they were taking too long. So they made it really uncomfortable for when the bishops all gather together to Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: do this election, because it would take months and months and months. They like comfortable, they're getting fed, there's all these servants. And I want to do The story of why they had to make that election process super uncomfortable so it'd go faster. but the trial of the dead pope it goes into one of my top five favorite trials of all time. Frankie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Judah: And there were no actual victims because once again Formosus was already dead. Frankie: Already dead, yeah. Judah: And stop by for more legal trial history weirdness. It's one of my favorite topics and I will be doing it repeatedly. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: So it'd be a great Halloween costume, the rotting corpse of a pope on trial. That'd be great. Frankie: my god. With with the big throne on him and Judah: Yeah. You could dress up like as a decaying like all zombie makeup Pope outfit, but you can only like you have to keep three fingers down 'cause Frankie: Yeah. Judah: he got those three fingers cut off. no, turtle fingers. And that is the real trial of an actually dead pope. Frankie: That's amazing. So for Light at the End of the Tunnel, although that was rather entertaining, my Light at the End of the Tunnel this week is musical theater. For those who know me, know I was a huge theater kid in high school and college. And while I have not kept up in community theater stuff, we do go to the theater quite frequently. And this weekend my husband and I saw a musical called And Juliet at the Hult Center. it's a jukebox musical, but they did a really, really good job with it, while only changing choice lyrics here and there. The music is pop music from the 90s, aughts, and teens, including I Want It That Way, Oops, I Did It Again, I Kissed a Girl, and Roar and more. and It just hit all the little nostalgia feels from high school and college times for me. It's an alternate ending to the Romeo and Juliet story with asides from Shakespeare himself, full of girl power and queer blooming. Fabiola Caraballo Quijada, who plays Juliet, is a rising star, landing this national tour fresh out of high school. She was also born in Venezuela. So seeing her on stage is watching the American dream come true in action for this one young woman. It was so much fun. There was such a high production value. There were pyrotechnics. There was confetti, there was all sorts of things. and very, very, very much worth seeing if you are in the path of this national tour. It was so much fun. Judah: Well, thank you for that light at the end of the tunnel. Frankie: Yes. Judah: You know, other people in podcasts they talk, you know, before or after they do the actual stories. I think Frankie: Mm. We don't. Judah: we should we think we should try it. I think we should try talking about interesting things in our lives. And we'll have to think of some. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Okay, fine. My my interesting thing is I'm wearing a bullfrog music t shirt that I got for free at a guitar store and it it's my favorite t shirt. and when I say free I got it for free because I spent nearly a thousand dollars on a new guitar. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the shirt I'm wearing is a dinosaur dressed as a unicorn and a unicorn dressed as a dinosaur. Because Judah: They are friends. Frankie: we are nearing spooky season. Well, we're in spooky season. We are nearing the actual we are Judah: It is spooky season. Frankie: nearing the actual Halloween. and we are planning on, prior to trick-or-treating, going to a Batman-themed escape room dressed as spider people. Judah: Fantastic. And how was the birthday party for one of my favoritest little people? Frankie: It was so good. He had fun with his little friends and we did a little bowling afterwards and everything was Spider Man and it was great. Judah: He's still into Pokemon, right? Okay, perfect. 'Cause I showed you the I need to give them to him. 'Cause I don't Frankie: yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes you do. Judah: even know what Pokemon cards are in there. It's a grab bag. Frankie: Cool. Judah: So Frankie: Alright. Next week I did not pick something yet, so it'll be a surprise to both you and me. Judah: it'll be my last spooky season. I think I did great finding the Dead Pope trial. Frankie: That was great. Judah: I'm not gonna find anything as good as that, but I'm gonna find something else spooky or Frankie: I'm gonna try to find something spooky since I think I've drawn my list dry of like all my original list of things. it might just wind up being a grab bag of like weird laws surrounding death and stuff like that, but we will see what I can find. Judah: Okay. Well as always, like review, please review, subscribe, share with your friends. If you have other spooky season nerds, we've done I've done previous episodes. I'm gonna your next week's episode is gonna feature many, many ADHD nerd law related spooky facts and stories. So share with your goth friends. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And you can reach out to us at Dumb Defences Pod at Gmail Frankie: Yeah. Judah: podcast at Gmail Dumb Defences Podcast. I don't check that email. Only Frankie checks that email. Frankie: And I haven't checked in a minute. Let me take a look, see if we have anything special. Mm, mm. Judah: If you have favorite spooky facts or cases, send them to us and we'll probably read them. especially if my medication's worn off. Like, let's do it. Let's do it. And for my sign off, if the police Frankie: You you forgot about the social media. You can reach out to us on Facebook, Judah: Social media. Frankie: Instagram, or Blue Sky. Follow us on there and you'll get spammed with reels of us and get sneak peeks of our podcasts and whatnot. and Judah has a special sign off. Judah: My special sign off is if you feel like talking to the police, don't. Frankie: Shut up. Judah: Shut the fuck up. Shut Frankie: Ha ha ha ha. Judah: the fuck up. Frankie: Mm. Judah: And the musical feature for this week, which I will send you a link to, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: is by an artist named Jesse Wells, who makes some great fantastic protest songs, but in particular I'm wanting people to listen to Domestic Error by Jesse Wells. Frankie: Mm. Judah: So that's our song I'm picking songs of the week now, Frank. And our Frankie: Sounds good. Judah: song of the week is Domestic Error by Jesse Wells. he's got many other excellent songs for the time, but this one is first of all it's a banger and second of all it's on the nose. Frankie: Awesome. Alright, see you next week. Bye. Judah: Okay, bye.