Latest / The Innovation Philosophie Podcast / CITY JAM and INDUSTRY.AIFF: Betting on the Human in AI-Era Music
Transcript
- Nathan: Hello and welcome to the Innovation Philosophy Podcast, the show where we look at the economics of innovation and the conditions that produce genuinely new ideas. I'm your host, Nathan Reardon, and today we're asking what happens to music when making it becomes almost free? The usual story is that AI is coming for the creative work, the songs, the production, maybe even the artist. So the smart money should follow the software. But 106,000 tracks now hit streaming every day with almost half of all tracks getting 10 streams or fewer. In a blind test from Deezer, 97 % of people couldn't tell AI music from human. City Jam is making the opposite bet. When content becomes abundant, it argues the value moves to what software can't mass produce, identity, trust, relationships and community. Joining me today is Pat Villasaran, founder of City Jam, who this week launched what she calls an AI era accelerator and incubator model for music, starting with record labels. So let's start there. Everyone is worried that AI will replace the creative side of music. Why are you betting on the human? PAT: Thank you so much, Nathan, for that introduction. That's quite lovely. And for those who have listened to the first two episodes of Innovation Philosophy, you guys would also know that I'm I'm Nathan's co co-host in this Innovation Philosophy podcast. But since we are diving into really tapping into different aspects and how we are able to apply innovation in different landscapes and industries. Specifically for this venture, CT Gem, we have created something that is called industry.aif, Nathan. And industry.aaf is quite unique in its approach around artist development, music marketing, songwriting processes because I have created a framework for industry.aif for it to be scalable on the creative aspects and the quote unquote deployment of music and the songs, which are the assets for labels, which are the assets for labels, in a way that major let labels could not implement just yet, because the systems and the processes on how labels Are not only acquiring artists, that's obviously that's still evolving, but I am I am on the stance on how do we match the speed on how AI song production platforms, for example, Suno is launching music and songs at scale, you know, and it's that speed that I want to be able to implement and help labels achieve so we could at least catch up and develop. As you've said, artists that have stronger ties within human communities, creating relationships and trust within those communities. And so even though there is an AI technology that is launched and it's evolving every single day, that's how the fast AI technologies around music is evolving and is shaping the industry before before the laws could even catch up, you know. we are empowering the creativity and artistry in of itself. And so for me, the reason why I believe to go back to my winded, you know, answer around this, the reason why I believe Technology is not going to never, never going to replace human creativity. It's because technology, whatever it is, right? Whatever it is, but for this specific case, it's the music making aspect of of technology. For this, it will never replace human stories. It will never replace losing someone. It will never replace the emotion of heartache. It could piece up stories. Language models here and there on how poetry from multiple different, you know, poets are formed, but it still needs a person and a creative mind to say, This is what I want it to sound like. You still need that creative mind. And so this is an open debate and open conversation that we're not gonna dive into right now. However, human creativity when it comes to the authentic songwriting process of it. Creating the lyrics, creating the melody, creating the harmony, that is something that is irreplaceable. And that is something that people and listeners could resonate with. Because if you we we look at the numbers, Nathan, you have that you mentioned 106,000 tracks on average every single day. But Nathan: Huge. PAT: in in 200 million songs, these are the ratio of that, you know, that gets at least 10 streams. The songs that get repeated again and again and again are not necessarily the songs that are made by AI. These are still the songs from our favorite songwriters, Adele and the classic Queens, and all of these human-made songs, really. So I do not believe and I will never believe that Suno or any other platform, songwriting platform, will ever, ever replace human songwriting. And that is the difference between industry.aif versus something that is like, let's make a song together or let's create a songwriting boot camp where everybody learns about songwriting. But the the gap there, Nathan, is that there is no process around the completion aspect of it. Nathan: So you've said in the past that music, PAT: Mm. Nathan: artistry and the industry as a whole are working on a disconnected plane. PAT: Yes. Nathan: What did you see that made you think that and why does AI make it more urgent rather than solving it? PAT: The best analogy around this is actually the the medical field. The medical field, Nathan. Nathan: Mm-hmm. PAT: So we have one body. We have one body. However, if you have a migraine, you go to a general doctor, general doctor, right? Let's see maybe a paracetamol or something that removes the pain from the migraine. But then, but then the generalists would tell you, hey Nathan, I'm seeing something around, you know, your sleeping patterns. Blood test, do you want to get tested with your blood? And so you have another blood doctor that analyzes your blood, but only from that lens, Nathan. Only from that one blood specific lens. But from Nathan: Mm-hmm. PAT: your blood, I'm seeing anemia. So your blood doctor then would come in and say, you know what, Nathan, you need iron, you have anemia. That is why you're getting migraine. You have a generalist that gave you paracetamol. General, you know. medicine. Just like test it out so you don't get the flu. And then you've got the blood doctor coming in saying you have anemia and now you have a new supplement. It's iron that's coming in to pay. And then the migraine keeps on happening. It doesn't go away for like seven days in. So now you have to go to a doctor again and say, you know what, the Dr blood, right? Just call them Doctor Blood. I'm not a medicine expert, you guys for everyone listening. I do apologize. But Dr. Blood would tell you, Nathan, apparently this is outside of my expertise. And so you know what? I would refer to you maybe an internist, an internist that actually analyzes your internal organs. Because that you you mentioned something that's like maybe you're you have a tummy ache. Maybe that's connected to that. Maybe that is connected to that. You know, you've got sleep patterns, and then you know that it's a symptom. The migraine is a symptom, right? So This is prevalent in complex cases around the medicine industry. Right? You have one symptom and you have another symptom and you have another symptom, but there is no one aspect that looks at your holistic body and says, Yes, for sure, yes, you can, you can do all the testing, Nathan. But you're coming in from a symptom of migraine. From the music standpoint, whether that is on a label or an independent artist saying, I want to make music. It is all of these disconnected things that is prevalent around education on both aspects. The labels are informed that getting trending artists on TikTok would give them the success and the unicorn basically. I'm looking at the parallels around that's why it's an AI accelerator. It's a it's an accelerator for artists. Because I look at the labels kind of like VCs and like combinators and accelerators, right? And then they're working on the startups that they want to bet on. That they want to bet on. But labels, Nathan: course. PAT: the the analogy for that is that I'm gonna bet on like these like 100 and labels, they have thousands of artists on file. Thousands of artists on file. So you could imagine them betting on that circle and pool, right, of artists. and usually combinators, they teach startup founders how to do the thing, product market fit and marketing, and creating an MVP that works and testing things out multiple different ways. labels have that kind of infrastructure, Nathan. They do. They do. They have ARs, amazing music marketing, amazing everything, right? Like, why are we still at the conundrum that if you already have the capital at large, we're talking about big labels in here. You already have Nathan: Yeah. PAT: the capital at large, you already are paying what? Six figures for your AR, the artist development managers. You already are paying for this. You've got social media marketing, you've got TikTok and like multiple different sub-accounts for artists Nathan: Yeah. PAT: to make them popular, right? There are multiple strategies right now that exist for that. If you have that, then why are we not able to still have these artists kind of like peek at the capability and the speeds where AI is competing at? Where a where where you cannot break in into that mold. So for example, there is let me just do a very, very quick reference, Nathan. There is an AI artist. On streaming right now, and the genre for this AI artist is country music. So Nathan: Okay. PAT: this AI artist, I'm not gonna name the AI artist, Nathan, but it is an AI artist, okay? Just for reference, the AI artist has about one hundred and ninety-four point seven thousand monthly listeners. Nathan: Wow. PAT: Country. Country genre. So Nathan: That's huge. PAT: that is huge because country musici you know country music. They're I I love country music. there they have a specific authenticity around love and the genre itself. You can really embrace the genre around the rootedness and the history and you know the modern aspect and how they narrate about love and all of these things, right? Nathan: Yeah. PAT: relationships and everything country music so beautiful but you have again you look at the data you look at the data Nathan let's just say again we're not gonna you know invent a pie chart but let's just say one out of 25 000 this is to to be to just to disclose to the listeners this is not concrete statisti stats but one out of 25,000 is going to be 25,000 country music ai and one Assigned country music artist, Nathan. This is assigned artist. For example, Nathan: Right, yeah. PAT: Isabelle, beautiful name. Let's just create a persona in here. But Isabel, even with the backing of even with the backing, they're they're working really hard, Nathan. And you you know this from you know our ecosystem of the brands that we're working with. There is massive content creation. They they are doing the shows, they are doing the But if I check if I check on Isabel, okay, I'm just I I actually have a a real artist around Isabel. But that's not her real name. This in this country musician. okay. I'm gonna check her numbers against this AI country music. And her her music is incredible, Nathan. Her music is incredible. Okay, there we go. This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is just real time, Nathan, right? The comparison. Nathan: Yeah. PAT: AI musician, you know, AI. It's AI. You can literally hear it, but because it's formulated in a way that is it is supposed to be repeated again and again. Again, what's the number? 194.7,000 monthly listeners. So that doesn't meet that doesn't even account to probably millions of streams at this point, Nathan. Nathan: Yeah. PAT: This is an AI producer doing this. This is an AI producer doing this. Now, this Isabel, okay, this is not her name. Isabel, amazing country musician, very talented songwriter. this is a working musician doing tours. not very active in social media, right? This is not some sort of musician that's like, I don't want to be on social media. I don't wanna, you know, this is not some sort of debate around that. You cannot find a gap. Around this musician that makes it an excuse, Nathan, for her not to be big right now. But her numbers, Nathan, 194.7,000 monthly listeners. Her numbers are at 60.8,000 monthly listeners. That's not even a third of it. Nathan: No. So if we look at the peak in June, Deezer PAT: Mm. Nathan: has said more than half of new daily uploads were AI, equating to about 90,000 a day. When supply PAT: Mm. Nathan: is pretty much unlimited, what actually becomes scarce? PAT: This is this is the humans still. It's the human aspect of it. And with industry. Everyone can talk about strategies, Nathan, on marketing and doubling down streaming numbers and everything. That that that is just a backhand on meta advertising and everything else. You put a little bit of advertising around everything. The streams go up, you know. However, there is an art and a science on two things. When you go into the creative aspect of music, number one is the identity of the artist themselves, Isabel, right? How does she how does she become so strong in her identity that even with thousands and hundreds of thousands of whether that's AI or other country musicians, she can stand her ground and say, I'm Isabel. And you will recognize me because I am Isabel on two things, her identity and her sound. So in industry.aiaf, we have like we are integrating the Maister program, for example, around creator labs, wherein you have songwriting experts and then again mastering production, all the experts, all the expertise, right? We double down on creating a framework around the creativity of music and then optimizing that to the best practices too in songwriting. So your art could be recognizable by not only a segment, not only a segment of the people, not only a segment, Nathan, but in a way that it's wildly competitive with the quote unquote algorithm on how Sunu is making the music. So I have spoken with this incredible world-class Nathan producer. And I keep telling this producer how but but in one segment, in one segment of of the population, this song would do really well because of the vocal structure, vocal thing, and like all the technical vocal stuff, right? But he told me something that's very important. Very important, Nathan. If you want to compete, and we're talking about labels in here, who looks at artists and songs as the asset. That's why you're in you're in the music industry, like even in the film business, right? The films, the creative thing is the asset. And so He told me something that like really really sparked my brain and really created an underlying reasoning and around industry.aaf. He said, Nathan, packed, but you're just talking about the one thing that doesn't resonate to the bigger population of music listeners. Nathan: Right. PAT: So that art and the science around that, that is what is getting missed. And that is what we are solving with industry dot AIFF. Nathan: Okay. So you've said that industry.aiff's job in an AI market is less about using AI, more about making a label's records ready for it. Sort of writing down who played on every recording and finishing, checking in new signings, distributor AI settings. Where does AI genuinely belong in finishing and launching a record? And where do you draw the line? PAT: It depends, I would say. It is a case by case basis. It is a case by case basis. because the conversation around AI within music is already a wide, wide you've got, you know, ranges from again world class producers to Grammy winning producers and Grammy winning artists. So it's not you know, it's not a one directional thing. It's the same as like the launch of like Windows. The launch of Windows before computer, you know, even on the launch of like Excel sheet, if you're gonna look at the old old adver advert advertising or commercials around Excel sheets, it's mind blowing. Like this is the best thing ever in the business world. Excel sheets. I think we are at that precipice. I think we are at that precipice that you need to be able to understand really what what the scope is of around AI to give a definitive decision. To give a definitive is decision around this. But least for now, right? It depends because not all artists need a one hundred percent and even Grammy is changing their modality around AI. They need transparent disclosure if one aspect of your music is AI, but they are welcoming it in terms of submission. They didn't say no AI allowed. No AI allowed. They didn't say that. But you have to disclose specifically what part Of the process, they're so granular about that. So that's one of the Nathan: Okay. PAT: aspects that industry.aif is solving at scale. At scale, because we've got the technology to track this entire workflow with full transparency. And so for us, you can use AI as kind of like an inspirational tool. It's kind of listening to other other artists too. Can you give me a beat that sounds like someone else? Right? That's can you give me a Moroccan beat inspired with like Asian integration around guitar. Something like that, right? It should be, at least for my end for now for now, it should be a point of inspiration. But once Nathan: Mm. Yeah. PAT: I am inspired, I need to be able to write that music on my own. This is where, at least as we we are speaking at this point, that is where the line is for me. That is where the line is. Because I need as an artist, my art is a full expression of my creativity. That is the thing, Nathan, that is irreplaceable. Irreplaceable. The human aspect of it. We're gonna evolve as humans in just a very, very short amount of time with AI and everything, even for our teams, you're seeing this kind of like really evolve. However, the way we're seeing and doing the problem solving our thinking patterns, however intelligent an AI does that, it it doesn't have morality. It doesn't have, how am I gonna my own specific perspective, Nathan? Let's just talk about like relationships, heartbreak and love. This is the most common theme in songwriting, Nathan: Yeah. PAT: right? But that artist, Isabel, would have a very specific references and wordings that you cannot just pinpoint together on AI. She would use words like cupboard, like it's a different reference. She would use words like down on the street, like it's a different reference. She would use melodies that sound like Rock, but on a country version of it. And you can mix and match everything that is pop when it comes to AI and Suno and other technologies out there. but you cannot replace that that one person. And again, if you're talking about just the number of songs, still, I am still betting. I am still betting on Isabel, making that happen. It just so happens, Nathan, that the framework is not there. Because Is Isabel might have like a you know, her label, whether she signed or not, might have a different kind of direction in terms of pushing in capital and pushing in the big pull on a bigger Nathan: Mm-hmm. PAT: artist than her. Nathan: So essentially, a song can be made on a laptop, released worldwide from a bedroom. You've gone on record saying that's where the hard part begins. You describe it as the gatekeeper became a stack. What do you mean by the stack and why hasn't that technology given real artists real control? PAT: It is it is an illusion, really. We have made technology accessible for everybody and that really at the end of the day, right? Even for if we look at innovation history, Mason, Ford Ford industries, right? They made a system on how to create cars. And that's why we have an eight to five. Yeah. We talked about this in the previous episodes. Technology is meant to help human beings. Technology is meant, innovation is meant to help human beings. But with The introduction of like easiness of songwriting and technology around the music aspect of things, it gave human artists an illusion that if I just do this within the platform, which is fifteen bucks per month, I can reach my dreams. Nathan: Right. PAT: That's the worst thing. That is the worst thing of it all. And so now when you're inside the industry, what happens? Massive failure. It's not about fail for sure. Failure is it's a very competitive landscape. It really is. It's not about talent, it's not about the thing. It's about everything, really, to be honest, right? But independent musicians, and you know, I'm just talking about independent musicians because it's city jam. And for this context of your question. independent artists, songwriters, or even again those who were assigned in the labels were given an illusion that the access on technology gives them a guaranteed gateway to success. That's the problem right there. Because it's not Nathan: So moving back to industry.aiff. PAT: Hm. Nathan: You've said that it's only going to take a limited cohort every quarter. Why do you think the cohort is the right shape for this? And what happens when demand outstrips it? PAT: I love this question because as we move our around industry.aif, we want the pioneering labels to be able to kind of like see how expansive the technology and the application of the framework for industry.aif really works and it does and it does. scaling then. Because City Jam is a technology-rich ecosystem, right? Scaling this to hundreds of artists is not going to be a problem for us in a matter of like by next year, early January. It is not going to be a problem for us because we have incredible technology and and technology, it's on the three pillars, Nathan. Technology and technology that Processes at scale. That's the first thing. The next then is data. We have access to world class data that supports. Okay, if if Isabel is this kind of artist, where is her audience? Where are her listeners? And why is this big set of audience reliant on AI made music? Let's bring them back to Isabel. That's how intelligent, right? The data integration. Right around industry.aaf is. So it's not just about, hey, we're again I'm gonna repeat it again. It's not just about, hey, I'm gonna teach you how to write songs. A B C D. It's not that. It is not that. It has to be a holistic ecosystem on how you are solving the human body problem. So we've got the data, we can we can we have the ability to crawl that in and find find. systems that work for Isabel as the artist. And then the last, which is a big 50% pie chart of industry.aiaf as a program, it is allowing Isabel's creativity, identity, her heart and her soul to be fully, fully developed as an artist. And so she could expand communities around her, not only on the streaming aspect of it, but really, really dive into having a a close knit of loyal community members. Around Isabel. Nathan: So the release of AIFF said that when content becomes abundant, value moves to identity, trust, relationships, community. PAT: Mm. Nathan: 53 % of UK grassroots venues made no profit. So that circuit, that PAT: Yeah? Yes. Nathan: community that used to develop artists is under strain. PAT: Mm, mm. Nathan: What... What can industry.aiff do about that? And who rebuilds the development circuit if fairly new scant? PAT: I'm gonna be bold in answering that it's City Jam. City Jam overbuilds all of these grassroots movements because we're not just Nathan: Okay. PAT: about yes, yes, confidently so, Nathan. We are building a lot of connections on the grassroots movement in the United Kingdom. because we know there's just a massive gap when when, Nathan, look at it. Music is the biggest export of the country. Do you know that? It is one of the biggest pie chart of the country's GDP. The economic value of the entire country country, Nathan, comes from music and musicians in the country. Nathan: Really? PAT: That is how promising and how incredibly competitively talented the musicians that are coming in from United Kingdom. So you have to ask the question why is 53%, more than half, of the grassroots musicians in the country not even profitable? How did that happen, Nathan? I mean, we're gonna we can talk about the government, it's a whole new scenario, but just asking that question, yeah, is enough to merit a whole new perspective on how we are looking at things. So industry, the reason why the answer is City Jam, Nathan, is because yes, industry. Data, integration, global monitoring of of audiences and global monitoring of everything else in between, catalog. It's it's a whole system. It's a whole system, right? But City Jam has creator labs and maestro programs that is rooted with the individual relationship between musicians, grassroots grassroots movements as well. So you've got the balance of yes for sure, industry dot AFF, enterprise, da da da da. We're solving the thing. We are solving the thing. We can scale this a hundred for cohorts. For sure. For sure. But that number is going to be very, very significant because if we're doubling down and we're saying we're believing in the artistry, the heart, the soul, the the the identity, that's where the real asset is, Nathan. That's where the the markets, the country needs to kind of like look at it and say, you know what? We need we need we need to have a different conversation. Nathan: So you just mentioned the maestros. PAT: Yes. Nathan: You've said tools are plentiful, senior finishing capacity is not. So the obvious move would be PAT: Mm. Nathan: to automate that experienced feedback. Why PAT: Mm. Nathan: are you actually building it as senior led and human? instead and PAT: Mm. Nathan: what's that going to cost you in scale if you can only get so many people with so much experience they've only got so many hours in the day to be able to provide the guidance that they have. PAT: For creator labs, the maestro program is a very comprehensive course structure. Anyone could do this on their own pace and their own time. Creator Labs is much more a live cohort of musicians. However, I want to to go back to that one point that you mentioned wherein, you know, the the maestros will have like a limited number of hours and so they we could only service or provide value to a limit number of like musicians and or like grassroots or independent labels as well. That is not true at all because when we talk about people with expertise around the music industry, I'm basically knocking on their doors and saying, Hey, you should teach Nathan: You PAT: hey, hey Nathan, you should teach what your craft is. And thankfully so we're quite very, very, very lucky. to be able to be working with incredible names in the industry that allows us to scale this. and also in in very, very soon too, institutions, institutions that are gonna be bringing in their expertise as well to these cohorts. So for me, it is not about it is not, it's never about the luck of people with expertise. It is about always, right, Nasen, with City Jam, the whole ecosystem and the music industry. Bringing awareness to institutions, the maestros, the the ones with expertise around music, songwriting, da da da. Everyone on the left side, on the left side of the spectrum and giving them awareness that you know what, we need you to teach the right side, which is the musicians who actually need your guidance. That is Nathan: Right. PAT: what C T Jam is doing right now, connecting the dots together. And so we have a community that's actually supportive of each other. So you've got now you've got musicians finishing their songs. Now you've got musicians having access to incredible producers. Incredible producers. So their songs actually sound radio ready outside of the easyness. Nathan, I have this other other anecdote about this world class producer again. This producer mentioned to me, Pat, you don't want the number of songs to be your priority. It's not about the numbers of number of songs. You can just, you know, publish any number of song any day and he's right. But is it the kind of song that actually gets remembered? Is it a good song? Nathan: Right. PAT: That is what we are solving at City Gem. It's not about, we've got two Maestros. No, we have so many people with incredible insights they would be able and would love to share with the community. City Gem is the one that's connecting all those dots together with Create Your Labs and the Maestro program. Nathan: Brilliant. If a label CEO is listening with a signed artist whose next release, I'm sure they are, I'm sure they are. PAT: Hopefully they are, Nathan, because it's very important. Yeah. Nathan: To all the label CEOs that are listening with signed artists, yeah, whose next release PAT: Yes, that are listening. Now now now they know. Now they know they are listening. Yeah. Nathan: has no date, what should they do tomorrow morning and what should they stop? expecting AI to do for them. PAT: I would start with the second question. They should stop a expecting AI to fix the soul problem of songwriting. It is a soul problem. You cannot. The reason why our maestro program are incredible. it's so incredible. The the teachers, the mentors that we have is because again, you you connect a good teacher to an amazing student. Nathan, this student becomes Elon Musk. Nathan: Mm. PAT: You know, you connect a good teacher to a good student. The student thrives. The student thrives. You can teach the student about, like, for example, Michael Jordan, you know, they everyone has a coach. All the greats have coaches. So even with AR, right? A and R and stuff and artist management, everything in the in the pie chart, the butt the body, the body, right? All the doctors that you want. If you are not solving the the holistic soul problem of that human body, which is apparently mental health and depression. You're just giving it pills upon pills upon pills, and then it looks like we're solving the problem, but we're not. But when you have a good passionate mentor and a good passionate teacher that actually believes in the artist 100%, that is when f like an an unlocking of the creativity happens, and you don't have Gatekeepers around that creativity because it flows. And this is then now you have the technology for tracking, you've got everything, the operational stuff, you're doing the marketing, the data fix, you're the the other part of it. But the the moving of the songwriting becomes something else because then this artist has like multiple different inspiration to come through. Like, for example, with Maestro. Lindy Day, she mentioned that in one of the one of the sessions, she asked her students to write about the frog. Not now the students are not necessarily writing about frog, but they have finished the song. They have finished the verse. They have done the thing. It's a different kind of modality. And so for me, for the label CEOs who are listening today on the podcast. The thing you cannot expect AI to do is is that, to replace the soul, soul to soul connection of a mentor to mentee. Nathan: Right. Yeah. PAT: A good mentor, a good mentor, Nathan, knows how to individually expedite one's progress. And so for going back to the first question, there's really nothing else that they could do outside of like reaching out to industry.aif and having a conversation with me, really. That is it. Nathan: We'll put the link in the episode description. PAT: Yes. Exactly so, Nathan. Exactly so. Mm-hmm. Make it nice and easy. Nathan: Make it nice and easy for every label CEO listening today. You've, even in the past, you've said that if we don't act now, the humans that make real art will be engulfed PAT: Mm. Nathan: by the system. Now, PAT: I will repeat that quote again and again, again and again. That is so true. Nathan: For a founder in an industry that's not the music industry, that is being reshaped by AI, what is the PAT: Mm. Nathan: human part of their business that they should be doubling down on? PAT: It is because we're talking about innovation philosophy, right? If we go back to the founder analogy around this, Nathan, it is your ability still to think around the philosophies of why you're doing the things that you're doing. Nothing replaces nothing replaces the thing. So if we even if you right, even with the with a case study around industry dot AIFF, if we're not problem solving big, big, big problems, Nathan, we're just copying everything else. Which is our episode one, which is, you know, how do I stop copying essential ideas? how do I create new industry breaking? That's the point of innovation, right? Industry breaking. Nathan: That's the point of innovation. PAT: Exactly. So always go back to innovation philosophy, really still, is the point of it. Learn, listen to a lot of the conversations, especially with our upcoming guests, Nathan. We have incredible, incredible guests on the show and just get immersed around the idea of innovation, why it is different and why you could Train innovation thinking framework. Nathan: Brilliant. Well, that is all that we have time for today. Massive thank you to Pat for joining me as ever from City Jam. In a market flooded by AI, the advantage will go to whoever invests in what software can't mass produce, the human soul. if you liked this episode, If you have any questions, please leave us a comment on the Innovation Philosophy Instagram. See you next time, Impact Maker.