Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / Craig Counsell returns to Milwaukee: “Cheer, boo, whatever, man.”

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Craig Counsell returns to Milwaukee: “Cheer, boo, whatever, man.” · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, this was a cold blooded business decision. And
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes here like the legacy stuff, he
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: simply does not care about.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome into North Side territory, Fowel territories. Cubs Podcast, I'm
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Sahadev Sharma with Patrick Mooney, your Cubs beat writers at
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: the Athletic. We are talking all things Cubs here and Patrick,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: we saw the return of Craig Council to Milwaukee and
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: there there was no doubt about it. They were all booze.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I did not hear any cheering. The Cubs fans that
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: were there were drowned out because it was clear as day.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: It was the intro video that he had when he
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: went when he was introduced and with lineups and went
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: to exchange the card, and then again when he went
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: to pull out Mark Leider from the game, booze. There
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: were even some chants of towns sucks, some pretty some
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: pretty harsh signs out there. But this is a group
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: of fans that have that are holding a grudge, but
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: have also embraced Pat Murphy and a pretty damn good
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Milwaukee Brewers team.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a chance, I along with a small
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: group of reporters in Saint Louis over the weekend, got
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: a chance to talk to Counsel about that return, and he,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: like everything that has brought up, seemed pretty unfazed by
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: it and like he would answer the questions and he
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: was thoughtful and introspective, but there was no sort of
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: like ah, I don't know, change in his demeanor. And
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I was just curious what it was like, because it's
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: one thing to talk about it in Saint Louis knowing
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: it's coming up, but kind of walking the Milwaukee clubhouse there,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: as you know, is very close to the dugout. It's
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: actually very nice. I think players really like it, but
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: it's it's very close. I'm just picturing him in that
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: kind of short walkout to the visiting dugout. Once he
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: sat down on that side, Well, what was he like?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: What was his demeanor at that point?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: He was the same old counsel in my opinion, he
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: you know, he made a quick quip to one of
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: the Milwaukee reporters that he knows well, seemed to be
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: in a jokey mood immediately when asked about it, said,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, cheer boo. Whatever they want to do, as
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: long as they have fun. This is what fans do,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: you know, come have fun at the ballpark. It's a
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: day off of work for them, you know, come out
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: here and enjoy yourselves. He was not, He did not
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: seem like he was concerned about that aspect of it.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: He was shown laughing when they were booing, you know,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: in the dugout after the game. You know that that
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: wasn't obviously they just lost five to one, five straight games.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: That wasn't his concern.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: He was.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: He kind of joked about it, kind of set repeated
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: himself from pregame. He's like that that's what they're going
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: to do, whatever they want to do. I'm fine with it.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Uh he he. It's interesting. He's he's very he doesn't
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: seem like a sentimental person. But when I ask that,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: when I asked Pat Murphy about it, Murphy's like, that's
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: how he is with you guys. He is a sentimental person.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: He cares a lot. You know, he cares about Milwaukee.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: He's like, I think in you know, twenty years from
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: now or however long, he will be looked at fondly
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: in Milwaukee. But right now, this is competition, and and
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: and it's a different feeling. And Murphy seems to get
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: a Council seems to get it. I think that's I
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: think that's true. I agree with Murphy there. You know,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: like you go to a rival, you're going to be
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: disliked for a little bit. But after, you know, after
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: time passes, uh, you know when when you have some
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: perspective on things. Uh, My guess is something I looked up.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Five times he went to the playoffs with the Brewers.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: They've been to the playoffs four times before that in
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: their existence. I know the Brewers aren't like the longest
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: lasting organization around, but four times. And I mean, as
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: someone that watched a lot of Cubs baseball growing up,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: the I guess the Brewers were not always in the
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: in the n ELT cetera. But I mean they were.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: They weren't considered a rival until Council showed up. You know,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I know they had good years before that because the
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: c C. Sabbathia years were before Council showed up. That
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: the year they traded for c C. Sabbathia. Some of
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: those years.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Was he playing for the Brewers at that point? I
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: mean he would have been around that time.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say, uh maybe not maybe maybe,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: just maybe that was just before he got back. Yeah,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I think I think that was just before Yeah. I
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: can't remember the exact time that he he was there
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: as a player, but he was maybe he was there. Yeah,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: listen that like it It felt like that was the story, right,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And it's something that you and I have been hearing
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: questions about in spring training, right, like Council has been
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: answering questions about this for a while now. The reality
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: is the story is the way the team is playing,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: right like this, the Brewers are a good team. Uh,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I think that's clear. They this is a well run organization.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's that's something that needs to be you know.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: They they need they continue to produce talent. They continue
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: to find unheralded prospects or whatever it is and develop
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: them and maximize their talents. Uh, and they you know it. Yes,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Craig Council is very likely one of the best managers
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: in the game. Right, that doesn't make him magic, right, Like,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: the organization the Brewers have built needs to be commended.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: They're up there. They don't have the postseason's success yet,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: so you can't say they're they're up there with Cleveland
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: and Tampa Bay who have both made World Series recently,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: but I kind of put them in that category. Now
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to think, like, Okay, who are these small
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: market teams that don't spend that repeatedly win that they
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: should be mentioned with Cleveland and Tampa Bay as as
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: one of those small market teams that just makes it happen.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: They're not the Dodgers, right, They're not the Yankees, but
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: they're they're a damn good organization. And I think, you know,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: when when we talk about Jed Hoyer has always admired
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Craig Council from AFAR. He admires teams like that in general,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: organizations that do that. He admires that, and he wants
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: that that. There's a reason Carter Hawkins is his second
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: in charge. He appreciates teams that can do more with less.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no doubt that it wasn't just Counsel, right,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, Doug Melvin hires him and made some moves,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: including the trade that brought in Josh Hater. You have
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: David Stearns obviously taking the team, you know, to the
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: next step, next level, to the point where you know,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Steve Cohen wants him to run his you know, multi
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: billion dollar toy. And then you know, Matt Arnold's made
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of shrewd moves as well. I mean William Cantreras,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: you know, I think he's gonna be like in that
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: MVP range this year. And I forget which one when
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: exactly they got William Domas, but that's obviously another like
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: everyday piece that they got, obviously drafting and developing Burns
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and Woodruff, which Council clearly played a role in and
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: at least drawing them out at the major league level,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: as you know, all star level talents. And so I
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: think it is interesting timing here of seeing one how
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Counsel responds just in that environment and getting a little
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: more context now that there's a little more distance from
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: that decision, of him acknowledging that, you know, the Brewers
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: at that moment could not offer him what he wanted.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: This was THEO leaving Boston, This was you know, Joe
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Madden leaving Tampa like it was time in his mind
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: for a new challenge. And obviously Pat Murphy knows Counsel
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: way better than I do. I read your story and
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I thought that sentimental line did jump out, and I
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: think Counsel is like empathetic and thoughtful and progressive and
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: is not a robot. But in terms of like the
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: sentiment sentimentality of leaving Milwaukee, I think there was very
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: very little. I mean, this was a cold hearted, uh,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: cold blooded business decision. And while he loves loved his time,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: there many fond memories, you know, great relationships that he developed.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: You know, the other stuff like amusing air quotes here,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: like the legacy stuff he simply does not care about.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: But he's like, that doesn't do anything for me. The
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: idea of having his jersey retired or a statue outside,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: like that's just not really how he's wired. And so
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: I think we're seeing that part of his personality here,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: and also like how is he going to handle this?
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: And we haven't seen him lose his mind yet. I
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: think in April you saw some of his creativity and
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: resourcefulness of getting them through, helping them get through a
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: lot of injuries, and we're seeing it now where you
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: have the offense disappearing, still getting goods, starting pitching. But
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: you know, it says a lot about counsel to say, hey,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: showed in Anaga is off to the greatest start in
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Major league history, arguably let's let's put them on ice
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: for ten days. Yeah, that's that's revealing. And then part
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: of it is what does he have to work with?
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of Cubs fans I've seen
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: on social media something will you make observations about in
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: the clubhouse is that there are a lot of issues
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: that are still lingering from when David Ross is managing
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: the team, and that this is not just a you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: management kind of pushing buttons issue. It could be a
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: talent roster construction conversation as well. And it'll be on
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: counsel to figure that out here and get them out
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: of this run.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a lot of angst among Cubs fans
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: on social media, and and rightfully so, I'm not saying, uh,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: fans need to be patient or anything like that, that
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that's the team's job and probably our job as like
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: trying to convey their messages and understand how how this
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: all works. And and frankly, being a you know, watching
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: baseball year round for many many years, we we can't
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: react like fans. I'm not, but fans are absolutely should
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: should feel how they want to feel. What I struggle
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: with is this idea that the Cubs offense was always bad,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: that that last year was actually actually they were bad
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: last year. Your stats don't mean anything. They were a
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: bad offense. I don't know what that means. Like some
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: people say they blew people out and that changed how
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: how the numbers looked. That that's not really true. They
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: were pretty consistent, Like there were some blowouts, sure, but
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: they were a four or five, six, seven run offense,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: like very consistently. This was not that twenty what eighteen
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: type type team where the offense was completely boom or
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: bust and built upon far too similar types of players. Right,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: this is a more diverse lineup. It's just not producing.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It's not like and and you can make the argument
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: that maybe last year was a blip. I'll listen to
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: that argument. I just don't want to hear that last
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: year was bad actually on offense. If it was a blip,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: if it was two great months of Saye Suzuki that
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: he can't replicate, if it was if it was Cody Bellinger,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: you know, finding the magic once again, but he's just
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: not that player anymore. Whatever it is. I'll listen to
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: those arguments, and it could be true. I'm not gonna
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: jump off just just because it's been a bad month, Like,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I have to stick with what I said, right, and
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I said, I believe this is going to be a
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: very strong offense. They need to change quickly otherwise I'm
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: gonna have to reevaluate my my opinion on that. But
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not ready to completely write it off. I will
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: say that there's some watching the Brewers. Man, It's it's
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: fascinating how they've been put together, because nobody would say, like,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: look at like when those moves are made, those are
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the same types of moves Jed's trying to pull off,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: you know. And now if you want to criticize their
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: ability to evaluate the talent, okay, maybe we have that
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: discussion as the months go on. Right, But like nobody
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: was saying, like, look at the Brewers bring in William
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Contrera's future superstar, right, like, oh, that was an interesting move,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, that's a nice move and almost yeah, no,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: not quite, Yeah, they developed him properly. Listen, fans ran
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: like every single time Trevor McGill stepped on the mound
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: with the Cubs, all I got was people yelling, why
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: is it? Why are they even giving this guy a chance. Okay,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I know there were people with the Cubs who really
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: thought he had a bright future. Okay, it didn't work
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: with the Cubs, but this is the reality of relievers.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it clicks. Brian Hudson was in the Cubs organization
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: had major walk issues. Somehow has like a six percent
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: walk rate and a thirty percent strike out rate with
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the Brewers. Okay, Germi a Strade is not with the Brewers.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: He's in San Diego. I don't know about you, but
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: every single time he stepped on the mound last year,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is not going well because
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: all he was doing was throwing a fastball. All of
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: a sudden, now he has a new pitch, and he's
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: a very and he's a viable reliever. He's a damn
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: good relievers. It's two months of a reliever. So I
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: don't want to go overboard on any of these guys.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Mcgil looks legit, though. My point is like, sometimes there's like,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: especially with bullpen arms, there's a lot of randomness here.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: But these smaller moves Williadamas, William Contreras, you know, the
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: guys that are young and developing the trade that got
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: them DL Hall and Joey Ortiz. Dale Hall's hurt right now,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: but Joey Ortiz is a quality bat. They were patient.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Bryce Terrang looked pretty bad on offense last year. He's
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: a good ballplayer, right, a great defender. Yeah, and he's
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and he's a and he's a good ballplayer. So sometimes
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: that patience pays off too. So I know Michael Bush
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: looks terrible right now, I'm not denying that. And maybe
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: he needs like he has been sitting more often. But
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say, like, oh the Cubs bleue that
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: trade just yet. You know that, Like, let's let's see
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: what he can do, how he can adjust. Patience is
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: valuable for some of these guys. Uh, everyone wanted Ian
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Half sent away, and he's the only guy hitting right now.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Not it's been a week, but still he's the only
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: guy that looks competent at the plate. It's it's rough
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: to watch this offense. So it's it feels like there's
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: one or two bright spots, uh, every now and then.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing is just that, Like what were some
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: of the concerns heading into this season, Like was it
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: is this a team built to try and win eighty
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: four games? And elbow the Diamondbacks out for the last
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: wildcard spot. It was certainly more that than a team
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: built to contend against the Dodgers. And so when you
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: have some of these things happen, it just brings back
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the criticism of like where is the And I know
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: there are only a few guys like this out there,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: but Wan Soto got traded this year and Shoeo Tani
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: signed the only place he probably would have signed. But
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: it just goes back to that, like who can carry
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: this offense? Like when things aren't quite going well, I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: think it's clear that their defense was overrated. Hey it's
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like this was not all on Nick Madrigal,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: but you got to make that play. That's like a
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: double play ball, and that's the type of plays that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: winning teams make. And I went back to like the
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Mike Talkman game last year, and it wasn't just that
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: catch because talking to himself, the first thing he brought
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: up with is Dansby and Eco turned that double play
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to set up for me. Earlier in that game, Dansby
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: was making these really slick, slick plays to save runs,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: like kind of the scoop throw Cubs escape, like the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Cubs have to function at that level to be that
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: playoff team, and they're simply not doing it. Yeah, and
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: so when you have lots of good players or like
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: two way players who aren't maybe spectacular in either area, injuries,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: guys struggling, just kind of the nature of baseball. Like,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I totally get it if my fans are just like
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: this is this feels like these the same same movie
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: as last year. And now. I think in general, if
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: he's out, you have a lot of things going in
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: your favor. If if you're the Cubs, in terms of
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: one council's presence, his steadiness, the fact that he's not
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: looking over his shoulder, none of the players are wondering,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: like what's gonna happen here, You're gonna have a front
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: office that it's gonna need to make bigger moves at
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the trade deadline. They always do make moves. And I
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: think there is a lot to be gained if you're
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: looking at roster spots, say twenty to twenty six on
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: this roster, you could do a lot better in several
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: different areas of just like get it back up towards
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: maybe a major league average standard. I think that could help.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: But also just go get some impact, whether it's a
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Pete Alonso, whether it's gonna be but there's definitely gonna
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: be some bullpen help. We're gonna assume that the rotations
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: probably can be relatively okay, we'll see what happens, but
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have a front office in an ownership group
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: that's gonna be extremely motivated to make it to October.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: And then the schedule too, Like if it's hard in
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the front end, it's going to be a lot easier
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: on the back end. And I think there's just something too,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: particularly in the expanded playoff field, of just like sticking
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: with it and not giving up can really as low
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a bar as that is, can really help you out
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: in the long run. So like the long form aspect
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: of the season for the Cubs, like everything's trending in
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the right direction in that big picture sense, but it
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: is just like hilarious that you know they're low point
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: five game losing streak happens right when council returns and
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: the Brewers are just red hot with like this you know,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: new slash old manager who is Counsel's mentor and trading
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: away burns and still just leading the division. It's made
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: a great, great storyline.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: So you touched on a few things that I've heard
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: fans say, and I agree with something I said before.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I want to make it clear, like Jed looks at
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: these teams like the Brewers and is fond of the
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: way they build things. They're the Chicago Cubs, though, like
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: they should act like the Dodgers and the Yankees, Right,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: So I get fans angst when you talk about you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I get Otani just wasn't going to come to the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Chicago Cubs, but not a real pursuit of Otani, not
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a real pursuit of Sodo. Those are the two names,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: right that stand out when you talk about just superstar
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the lineup, that this team is
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: lacking outside of that, When people bring up like they
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: should have done more, I'm not sure I agree as
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: far as the offense goes, they should have done more
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: for the bullpen. They should maybe for depth pieces, But like,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: does JD Martinez change street stretch? Right now? Does y
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: s get like he I'm not saying JD like JD
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Martinez twenty eighteen, probably does current day JD Martinez just like, yeah,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: he's a good player. And it'd be nice to have
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: a deeper lineup and someone that you can trust will produce.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: But you know, like I wrote during the off season, like, yes,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: is Michael Bush a risk. Sure, it's a risk, but
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: he's also an upside play, very talented offensive player that
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: scouts love across the league, not just with the Cups
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Reese Hoskins more established, but also was a risk right
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: coming off a major injury in his thirties, already injured again, right,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: And like that's not to say like he that's a
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: bad signing. It's like they all come with risks, different
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: type of risks. It's not You're not getting Juan Soto
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: with these guys, so you need to so you need
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a little you need a little good luck with it too.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: The Cubs added Jock Peterson and and he wasn't a superstar.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Now he's with Where's the Diamondbacks And he's playing like
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: a stud right in like playing against the right matchups.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: So maybe, yeah, No, I mean, like there are.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I think in general I agree with you.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, those are solid players. But I don't think
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: it changes what the problems are right now. And and
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: when it comes to the trade, deadline, they do need
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: to be bold, and I I kind of I see
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: what you're saying with Pete Alnso I think they need
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: to be a little bit bolder and find someone that's
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: around for next year too, because they're likely, I mean,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: unless Cody Bouinger falls off a cliff, they're likely going
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: to lose him, right, Like, I I like, Jed just
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't going to spend the money on him, Like, and
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Juan Soto is probably pricing himself out of Jed's market,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Like that's unfortunate. Like, I don't I don't want to
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: assume that Jed will never go after the top player
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: on the market and and spend crazy money. Maybe he'll
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: be at a point where the pressure is on and
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: he kind of has to. But I like, and and
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard this yet, but like it just what
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: we've experienced, what we've observed and in our conversation with
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Jed over the past decade plus. That's just kind of
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: my expectations, right, Juan Soto's gonna price himself out, So
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I would like to see Jed Hoyer be aggressive at
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: the deadline and add a player that's around beyond twenty
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: twenty four because I think that makes sense for this team.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: You need unless he's hell bent on believing that Owen
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Casey's the next, you know, stud in the middle of
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: the lineup. I just think these things are so risky
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: to do this and completely to always bet on the
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: cheaper player. You're behaving. As much as I praised Cleveland
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: and Milwaukee and Tampa Bay, stop behaving like them. Behave
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: like them in certain ways. Don't don't do it in
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: the spending way. That's how you really are the example, right,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: they know how to do it. One other thing, I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: think we should mention at least some of the positive
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: right Justin Steele looked great yesterday against one of the
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: best offenses in baseball. He was a stud. I think
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: that is a big sign, a good sign you would
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: have to hope and believe eventually. The offense isn't the
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: worst offense in baseball. It's been the worst offense in
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: baseball for almost a month now, worse than the White Sox.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I have this up. It's they have a seventy eight
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: way to runs great a plus since April twenty seventh.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I keep going back to April twenty seventh for people
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: that don't know what that. That's the day after that's
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: the second game of the Boston series. I still think
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: that Friday game against Boston was one of their best
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: offensive performances of the year. That's Saturday. Since they've just that,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that's the first time they got shut out, and they've
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: been shut out I think five times since. Like, they've
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: been a terrible offense since then. The White Sock they're
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: behind Cincinnati, the White Sox, Colorado just abysmal, unacceptable. We'll
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: use whatever word you want. They don't. They're not doing
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: anything well outside of taking their walks. That's it. That's
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: all they're doing well. And if you can't hit those
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: walks don't matter. They're not hitting for power. They're striking
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: out too much. Nothing, nothing's going right. It's bad. It's
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: bad offensive baseball. It's not bad luck, not enough of it.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I've been harping on Christopher Morrell and bad luck. Yesterday
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: was a bad game. Monday was just a bad game
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: for him, Like just bad, like not hitting hittable pitches,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: taking good pitches, swinging at bad pitches. That was the
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: old Christopher Morrell. And then you start to worry, like, uh, oh,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: you hope that was just one bad game, right, You
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: hope it was one bad game and not a trend
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: of him like trying to press it make things happen,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: try and do too much. Yeah, but again justin Steel
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: looked great and you got to take that and hope, like,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: do you have this one two punch at this front
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: of the rotation that you know, if the offense figures
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: it out, okay, and you can I get it, Like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: you don't want to aim for eighty four. You want
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: to aim for ninety plus wins. But if you get
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: in and you have a one to two punch like
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: that and the offense is hot at the right time,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: because we know the offense has the talent, has some
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: talent to get hot, then it all works out. Right.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Then you forget about all these things and you hope
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: they build upon that. But there are clear issues right
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: now that we just can't gloss over.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Well. The companer basically had a break even point about
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: a third of the way through the season. The Memorial
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Day is usually kind of a mile marker on the
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: long season, and I think it was. April was a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: very good month, overcoming a lot of adverse the banking wins,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: and then May was squandering pretty much all of that
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: momentum and kind of goodwill and seeing some of the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: excitement dissipate, some of the frustrations mounting. We will have
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously June and July will be these really
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: important time to one identify what they need at the deadline.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I think I have a really hard time seeing this
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: team selling in this division, given the pressure on the
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: front office and the business side to keep going. So
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: that's actually I think a great thing for their you know,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: long term prospects this season. Like, I think there's almost
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: no chance of them just giving up. They don't have
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: a ton to deal anyway. So like you probably need
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: another catcher, I mean, no matter what, you need some depth.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: But offensively it just simply isn't there right now. You
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: get a nice played inning reliever, whether or not it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: a traditional closer or not, you know, just another weapon
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that council can use in the later innings. And then
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: definitely at least one hitter. We'll see, can you Michael Bush?
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I think I wrote you know he's the finally have
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: a replacement for Anthony Rizzo. You know, that was after
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: he hit like five home runs in a row. I
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: think that might be the exact point he started to
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: tail off after that. You know, you would think that
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Christopher Morel's, you know, the swing decisions he's making, his
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: bat speed, his hard contact should result in better numbers.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: But it's not there. And I think you were on
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it side of like, okay, how much more of this
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: can you take before he does just totally get out
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: of an approach that the Cups keep heading him on
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: the back for you know, great at that way to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: work a walk, you know, and you've seen it, especially
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: in those later innings. Like he he does give you
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: a good at bad. He does know what he's doing
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: and what he should be. He's shown tremendous improvements. When
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: you look up at the scoreboard, the numbers are not
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: very good, right, and it just comes down to your
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: best players playing like your best players. And Cody Bellinger
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: probably been outside of Mike talkman, you know, maybe the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: team's best hitter, most productive hitter. You know, a solidly
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: you know, league average, slightly above hitter, but not the
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: MVP type guy we saw last summer. Ian happ goes
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: through these streaks. He's it's picking up a little bit recently,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: still not where it needs to be Uh, say a
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Smazuki is going to be caught in that in between
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: zone again or for how long? This is someone who
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: carried the team for a stretch last year and so
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: and Dansby too. I mean he has not been the
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: player that the Cubs expected for most of this year.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: So like those are you know, big money players, big
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: ticket items that the team you know, targeted of like
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: how they're going to build this back up again? And
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: like I don't know, there aren't many teams that have
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: workarounds to like, you know, your five or six best
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: hitters not producing the way they're supposed to. There just
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: aren't you know, they already run out of pitchers in
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Iowa to bring up, like there's not much help coming
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: outside of whenever, you know, they think Kate Horton is ready,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: which doesn't sound like soon. And then on the hitting side,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: like these are their best guys, they got to the
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: either producer they won't.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I mean, I don't know if there's signs
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: of anything going right for these guys. I will say
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: with sayah, I'm glad I haven't seen any of those
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: half swings in the past few games. Uh that that's
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: a little. That's I know that's not like heartening fans,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: but it's just like it's a little. It's a it's
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: something that, Okay, I at least he's not like just
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that dreadful July moment where he wasn't even hitting anything.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: He looked confused and like he didn't belong in the
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: major leagues. That's not happening. Dansby's not striking out as
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: much now that his knees healthy. Uh, he needs to
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: hit though he's not hitting at all, and there's I mean,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you're right, there's just too many guys. How are you
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: supposed to overcome that? It's not it's not realistic. There's
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: no power. They have two home runs during this losing streak,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: if over the last week, essentially they have two home
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: runs a both the Ian half. So none of this works.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't work. You're you're not gonna win games
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: like that. So it has to turn. Uh, it's more
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: than it's more than you know, one or two people
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to point the finger at, and it's a lot needs
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: to change. I still think it. You know, I wouldn't
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: abandon ship the fact that they're five hundred. That what
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: we've been watching five hundred fields like a miracle. But
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I mean they do have great starting pitching. And when
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: you have great starting pitching, like things can happen. Good
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: things can happen, right like you make you can make
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: good things happen. With that you have, you're always in
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: every game, and and you get a couple guys hot
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and things changed, and the tenor of everything changes, and
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: you have a manager that's very even keeled and isn't
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: going to overreact. He I talked to some players and
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: they all agreed. I don't notice any difference. And I
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: mean that in a good way, like he's you know,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: he's he's keeping things steady, and we don't need someone
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: that's panicking or trying to change everything all at once
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: and and overreact because I know fans want to see
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Luis Vasquez, get it, that's but guess what, Like that's
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: not fixing the problem. Look, I get it, you just
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: want something different. Those they don't have the magic formula
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: on the bench. That's not what's happening. That's not how
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: this suddenly turns. Yeah, that like, well, there's more to
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: dive into over the next few days and weeks. I'm
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: very curious to see how Jed Hoyer reacts to all
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: of this. We'll see if he speaks in in Milwaukee.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: But it's it's a it's a down moment right now
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: for the Cubs, and I understand and and uh embrace
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: the frustration of the fans because I think it is
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: it's very fair to be ticked off right now when
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: when they built up a solid start to the season
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and now it's kind of crumbling. Uh, and you're wondering
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: whether this team is where they're headed. Uh. This is
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: North Side Territory, your Cubs podcast at Poul Territory. I'm
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Sahadev Sharma and Patrick and that's Patrick Mooney. Make sure
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: you read our work at The Athletic subscribe rate and
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: a review to the podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: We appreciate all of you. Patrick, did you want to
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: say one last thing or it just looked like you
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: wanted to say one last thing?
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: They sorry, wegat we got two more shows the rest
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of the week. I would just say that we have
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: two more shows this week, the Cubs have three more
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: games against the first place team in the division. That
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: our conversation could sound very different after a show today
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: and by the end of this four game series, it
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: could always get a lot worse. But in listening to Council,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: he has very much been you know, you show up,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: you do the same things. You have a game to
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: win today. So the Cubs have three more against the
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Brewers here and that we've seen how quickly teams can
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: change this season.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: All right, thanks for listening. Take care. We appreciate all
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: of you. Until tomorrow. I think soon enough we'll be back.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Take care, m m m hm.