Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD, 31, USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER & CAT IN $6,300 APARTMENT

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COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD, 31, USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER & CAT IN $6,300 APARTMENT · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to cops, a prep
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Speaker 1: school grad now thirty one. Some would say a rich,
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Speaker 1: spoiled brat uses a golf club to kill his own
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Speaker 1: little brother and the family cat and their six thousand,
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Speaker 1: three hundred dollars a month apartment.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 1: Prep school grad now thirty one, according to cops, uses
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Speaker 1: a golf club to murder his own brother and the
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Speaker 1: family cat and their lux apartment. I'm Nancy Grace. This
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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 3: Tragedy on fools in the preppy college town of Princeton,
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Speaker 3: New Jersey, when ex university a Michigan Sunker star Joseph
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Speaker 3: Hertkin is found dead in his apartment.
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Speaker 1: How can this be an and idealic setting? Money rolling
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Speaker 1: in money right there in the shadows of an ivy
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Speaker 1: league institution. One brother allegedly clubs the other brother dead
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Speaker 1: with the golf club, then stabs him multiple times, and
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Speaker 1: then murders the family cat.
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Speaker 4: Listen, flashing lights and cyberns break the usual silence outside
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Speaker 4: the luxury Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
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Speaker 4: Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
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Speaker 4: one one call to the nearly seven thousand dollars a
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Speaker 4: month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
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Speaker 4: the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
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Speaker 4: As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
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Speaker 4: to gain access to the building.
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Speaker 2: True words are never spoken.
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Speaker 1: Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
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Speaker 1: a month apartment, and they can't be happy.
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Speaker 2: With every luxury they could be provided.
2:00
Speaker 1: Still, brother kills brother, a story as old as Genesis.
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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 1: what we are learning tonight, Straight out to Karen wall Sing,
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Speaker 1: your local editor Patch Media.
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Speaker 2: Karen, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: First of all, can you describe where this occurred.
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Speaker 5: This apartment is in on the middle of a very
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Speaker 5: new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
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Speaker 5: and they're right in the middle of Palmer Square, which
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Speaker 5: is high end shops. The whole block where they are
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Speaker 5: is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly from
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Speaker 5: the street. You have to go through an archway to
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Speaker 5: get into it.
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Speaker 2: When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
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Speaker 5: We're talking high end boutiques, you know, where you're not
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Speaker 5: walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
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Speaker 5: a month in income.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
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Speaker 1: these photos, and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
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Speaker 1: seeing right there off of there the family's social media.
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Speaker 2: That's where we're learning.
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Speaker 1: So much about these two soccer star brothers now one dead.
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Speaker 2: You know Phil Waters help me out here. Phil Waters.
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Speaker 1: Guys you know him well, Former homicide detective for Houston PD,
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Speaker 1: president's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean, I've been
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Speaker 1: in so many housing projects of Trump through crack houses, brothels,
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Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, you name it, under bridges,
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Speaker 1: and strip clubs where murders go down. But really you're
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Speaker 1: looking down at what Brooks brothers and Ann Taylor that's
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Speaker 1: probably not pause enough actually with and these people still with.
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Speaker 2: All of that, they still have to kill each other.
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Speaker 1: I mean, these two were soccer stars at preppy schools,
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Speaker 1: bringing in tons of money, silver spoon, the works.
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Speaker 2: What is wrong with these people?
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Speaker 6: Well, it just goes to show that people with money
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Speaker 6: still have problems like the rest of us, as you've
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Speaker 6: already thought.
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Speaker 1: Wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong, then okay.
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Speaker 2: Problems, yeah, problems. But I don't have the.
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Speaker 1: Problem that I want to murder a family member and
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Speaker 1: our cat and dog and guinea pig.
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Speaker 2: I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
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Speaker 1: I call a problem an illness, a family member with
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Speaker 1: maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
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Speaker 1: living under a bridge, those are problems. The urge, the
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Speaker 1: sudden urge to club your brother dead with a golf
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Speaker 1: club then stab.
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Speaker 2: Him, I don't call that a problem. I call that
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Speaker 2: premeditation and murderous intent.
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Speaker 6: Well, I would have to say that is something like
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Speaker 6: this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
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Speaker 6: And what I have noticed that if I have a
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Speaker 6: case like this, in all my cases that I always
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Speaker 6: put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
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Speaker 6: I get them in the interview room, I want to
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Speaker 6: be able to address the wise behind the act. And
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Speaker 6: in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
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Speaker 6: that in the description in the media of these two men,
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Speaker 6: the younger brother the victim. Here Joseph has always described
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Speaker 6: in his great successes in high school and his great
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Speaker 6: successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
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Speaker 6: with his academics, and then his success with his job,
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Speaker 6: the work that he's been involved in. And then when
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Speaker 6: you talk about the description of the brother the suspect
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Speaker 6: in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
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Speaker 6: So there is a real backstory here that is yet
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Speaker 6: to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
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Speaker 6: This was not an instant decision. This is something that
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Speaker 6: has been building, building, building, and this is, you know,
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Speaker 6: what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
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Speaker 6: this case, it's a smoking golf club.
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Speaker 1: No, no to everything you just said. All of what
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Speaker 1: you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
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Speaker 1: be true, but what you are describing is a motive
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Speaker 1: for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
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Speaker 1: see that as a problem that we all have a
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Speaker 1: family problem that would lead to a drastic act.
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Speaker 2: In my mind, would be something severe or not.
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Speaker 1: You're jealous of your little brother, because yeah, did you
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Speaker 1: on the soccer field? And speaking of jealousy in this
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Speaker 1: case to especial guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renowned criminal
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Speaker 1: defense attorney, at Minton, Bassett, Flores and Carsey, And let
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Speaker 1: me add former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers
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Speaker 1: Educational Institute, Sam, I hear everything fil just said, and
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Speaker 1: he may be factually one hundred percent accurate. But about
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Speaker 1: five years into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was
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Speaker 1: looking over at a defense a killer, a murderer, and
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Speaker 1: it wasn't his first time, and I thought, why why
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Speaker 1: would he leave such a wake of pain behind him
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Speaker 1: over nothing?
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Speaker 2: And then it hit me five years it took me
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Speaker 2: why ask why?
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Speaker 1: Because the state never has to prove motive, does it,
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Speaker 1: Sam Bassett?
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Speaker 7: It does not.
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Speaker 8: I think this case kind of has a resonating theme
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Speaker 8: in Texas. A few years ago we had a Clay
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Speaker 8: case where the defense put on an expert to talk
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Speaker 8: about the affluenza, the psychological effect of well health and
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Speaker 8: privilege on a young man who had committed a crime
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Speaker 8: and to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell
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Speaker 8: on unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public, because
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Speaker 8: it's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
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Speaker 8: stomach how somebody with all these.
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Speaker 7: Privileges and all these.
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Speaker 8: Blessings could do something like this. And I think you
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Speaker 8: have to begin to peel the onion skin layers and
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Speaker 8: try to understand what was going on inside this older
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Speaker 8: brother's head.
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Speaker 7: Other than just jealousy.
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Speaker 8: It has to be something even worse.
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Speaker 2: You just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
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Speaker 1: Why do I have to get in his head and
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Speaker 1: look around in there to figure out why he brutally
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Speaker 1: murdered his brother and the family cat.
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Speaker 2: Now you were referring to a.
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Speaker 1: Defense called afluenza when typically an adult manchild is so
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Speaker 1: eased to a silver spoon in his mouth that he
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Speaker 1: can't relate to real life. Now, see right now, you're
9:06
Speaker 1: barking up the wrong tree. My dad worked the swing
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Speaker 1: shift for the railroad my whole life, and my mom
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Speaker 1: started off as a bank teller. All right, So the
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Speaker 1: whole affluenza I'm too rich to be held accountable thing
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Speaker 1: is not working right here. But speaking of the affluenza teen,
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Speaker 1: he was not a teen. But the affluenza defense you're
9:28
Speaker 1: referring to Ethan Couch, I remember him well, a Terran
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Speaker 1: County case.
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Speaker 6: Listen, ar Kenny and I one, what is your ask emergency?
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Speaker 2: The record Road really need some Manbuel that we flipped.
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Speaker 7: And so again, Okay, were you involved.
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Speaker 2: In the truck?
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Speaker 9: Okay, you're in this truck.
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Speaker 2: Are you injured? We just like to how many people
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Speaker 2: are injured?
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Speaker 3: Just for my record, If you don't know how many
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Speaker 3: people would injured, we're.
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Speaker 2: That's him, Ethan Couch.
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Speaker 1: He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
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Speaker 1: including a youth minister on the side of the road,
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Speaker 1: trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
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Speaker 1: paralyzing another victim.
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Speaker 2: And take a listen to the sentence.
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Speaker 9: Look at my brother.
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Speaker 10: He's doing more than a twenty eight day period one
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Speaker 10: twenty eight or whatever.
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Speaker 9: He's doing more than ten years of probation.
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Speaker 4: Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
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Speaker 4: four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
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Speaker 4: speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
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Speaker 4: defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
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Speaker 4: blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
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Speaker 4: the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
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Speaker 4: anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
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Speaker 1: If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
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Speaker 1: jail right now as it was, it was a lesser volunteery.
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Speaker 1: He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on each count.
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Speaker 2: But what did he get?
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Speaker 1: An unspecified sentence to a treatment facility. He goes on
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Speaker 1: the run and he's found with his mother hold up
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Speaker 1: in a five star resort in Mexico. He was caught
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Speaker 1: ordering room service, ordering pizza. Okay, him ethan couch.
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Speaker 2: You brought it up.
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Speaker 1: I didn't affluenza. And that's what we're seeing here as well.
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Speaker 1: When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
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Speaker 1: permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
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Speaker 1: Fort Worth Star Telegram.
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Speaker 11: Back to this case, listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night,
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Speaker 11: Princeton Police receiving that one one call about a dead
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Speaker 11: body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller,
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Speaker 11: Matthew Hurkin, remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the
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Speaker 11: dispatcher's questions about who is dead, why they are dead,
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Speaker 11: who owns the apartment? And more police and first responders
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Speaker 11: surround the building. But nothing could have prepared officers for
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Speaker 11: what they found inside.
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Speaker 1: Two our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch Media.
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Speaker 2: What did they find inside Karen.
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Speaker 5: Reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family cat dead,
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Speaker 5: and they found a bloody knife plate, and Joseph's eyeball missing.
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Speaker 2: The cat apparently had been set on fire.
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Speaker 5: We are working to confirm those details of passions.
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Speaker 3: Twenty six year old University of Michigan grad soccer prodigy
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Speaker 3: Joseph Herkin is found dead along with his cat in
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Speaker 3: a fiery blaze at his New Jersey apartment.
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Speaker 2: Is this a case of simple sibling rivalry?
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Speaker 1: According to Phil joining us right now, Phil Waters, veteran
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Speaker 1: homicide detective, it was a rage attack. Why do you
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Speaker 1: say that, Well, just.
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Speaker 7: The scene itself.
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Speaker 6: When I walk into a scene like this, the first
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Speaker 6: thing that's going to stick out to me is it's overkill.
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Speaker 7: You know, this use of a.
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Speaker 6: Golf club and a knife and the condition of the
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Speaker 6: body of the victim.
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Speaker 7: And then you've got.
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Speaker 6: This this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
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Speaker 6: So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
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Speaker 6: happened in that scene. This is one of these things
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Speaker 6: where as I walked in any scene, I let it
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Speaker 6: talk to me. I want to take a look at
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Speaker 6: it and what are these things indicate to me about
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Speaker 6: what happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
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Speaker 1: Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
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Speaker 1: at the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners at Vegas.
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Speaker 2: Never lack of business.
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Speaker 1: She's seen more dead bodies than probably all of us
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Speaker 1: put together, even having visited many crime saying, doctor Gorniac,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Do you agree with
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Speaker 1: Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this is a rage attack?
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Speaker 2: If so, why I.
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Speaker 10: Am not sure I can agree with that because that's
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Speaker 10: outside of my lane.
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Speaker 9: So as a frontic pathologist or a.
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Speaker 10: Death investigator, we go in and we note the injuries
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Speaker 10: that we see, but to categorize it as a rage,
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Speaker 10: that's not what we typically do. But I can understand
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Speaker 10: why Philis is saying that an overkilled because the use
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Speaker 10: of more than one weapon, a golf club and a
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Speaker 10: sharkforce instrument as the nice.
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Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill. What
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Speaker 1: do you mean by that? What here lazy to call
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Speaker 1: it overkill?
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Speaker 10: Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
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Speaker 10: have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
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Speaker 10: then you have a sharp force weapon which is a knife.
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Speaker 10: I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
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Speaker 10: sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
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Speaker 10: I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
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Speaker 10: sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab wound and
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Speaker 10: someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six, so depending
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Speaker 10: on that or just a number of wounds that you
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Speaker 10: can take a golf club and strike somebody in the
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Speaker 10: head one time and cause their death, or you strike
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Speaker 10: them about the body and not only do they have
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Speaker 10: head injury, but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Gorniac, Have you ever seen a murder victim that
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Speaker 1: had a body part gouged out as in this case?
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Speaker 9: I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
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Speaker 10: I've had dismembered bodies, but to go would out and
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Speaker 10: I in this case, I.
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Speaker 9: Think that would have given me the willies.
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Speaker 10: If I was at that scene, because I mean, I've
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Speaker 10: seen a lot, but that probably would have been a
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Speaker 10: little bit too much for me.
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Speaker 2: You know.
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Speaker 1: I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalshewsky again, Doctor Jeff.
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Speaker 2: Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
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Speaker 1: Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
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Speaker 1: hear what's the motive?
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Speaker 2: Right? They want to hear?
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Speaker 1: Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
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Speaker 1: alleged killer. The brother in this case was the middle child.
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Speaker 1: The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
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Speaker 1: in every way.
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Speaker 2: He himself was a shining star.
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Speaker 1: He played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in
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Speaker 1: Tom's River.
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Speaker 2: He went on to play.
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Speaker 1: Soccer a starting soccer player for another elit prep school, Wesleyan.
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Speaker 1: I guess that wasn't enough to satisfy his ego.
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Speaker 2: Whats with the middle child syndrome?
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Speaker 12: Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
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Speaker 12: so that they have to do things to get more attention.
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Speaker 12: But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
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Speaker 12: of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
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Speaker 12: in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
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Speaker 12: about using a golf club and then a knife, we
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Speaker 12: talked about is this a rage killing.
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Speaker 7: There's more going on than this.
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Speaker 12: You know, someone uses a golf club, and I've had
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Speaker 12: plenty of cases where people have used golf clubs and
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Speaker 12: gaged out eyes and said pets on fire. Believe it
17:49
Speaker 12: or not, the golf club can't kill you, but it's
17:53
Speaker 12: usually it can be on one hip, but it's not
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Speaker 12: a very efficient murder weapon. So for what we talked
17:59
Speaker 12: about already, in this case, this killer was obviously into
18:03
Speaker 12: the experience of the murder, took it a step further.
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Speaker 12: Wh're gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience rather than
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Speaker 12: just aim I want to off my brother that I'm
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Speaker 12: jealous of, and then the idea of setting the cat
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Speaker 12: on fire again. For some reason, this person is carrying
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Speaker 12: out these acts and these murders for the experience rather
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Speaker 12: than just the motivation or the aim that I want
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Speaker 12: to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Kellashowski, hold on, I'm just a JD. I'm not
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Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist like yourself. Author of Dark Sides on YouTube,
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Speaker 1: doctor Jeff Kalashewsky, forensic psychologist, doctor Jeff the experience. We've
18:45
Speaker 1: been analyzing that theory in depth when it relates to
18:51
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger, the pad criminology student out at Pullman in
18:58
Speaker 1: Washington State, and the working theory is that with no
19:04
Speaker 1: connection to the four murdered college students, murdered in their
19:11
Speaker 1: own beds in the wee hours of the morning before
19:14
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with the experience. He
19:21
Speaker 1: had been asking in a study for his PhD, asking
19:28
Speaker 1: violent felons a questionnaire like, what did you feel just
19:33
Speaker 1: before you committed the crime? What were you thinking, what
19:36
Speaker 1: were you feeling? What went through your mind? What did
19:38
Speaker 1: it feel like when you identified your quote target? How
19:42
Speaker 1: did you feel during it? Were you cognizant of finding
19:46
Speaker 1: a way out or a quick exit? In retrospect, how
19:49
Speaker 1: do you feel about what you experienced during the crime.
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Speaker 2: He was obsessed with it, then.
19:56
Speaker 1: Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carry them out.
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Speaker 1: Many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
20:07
Speaker 1: what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
20:12
Speaker 1: talking about? In this case the middle child syndrome. The
20:17
Speaker 1: middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
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Speaker 1: eyeball out.
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Speaker 12: For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
20:25
Speaker 12: a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
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Speaker 12: to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
20:30
Speaker 12: way back to Genesis, it would have been done a
20:33
Speaker 12: lot more efficiently, and it would have not taken us
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Speaker 12: long and this experience of using a couple murder weapons,
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Speaker 12: gouging the eyeball, setting the cat on fire.
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Speaker 7: There's more here.
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Speaker 12: Than just a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy
20:48
Speaker 12: or just a hate of your brother.
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Speaker 1: Hey, doctor Jeff Kalsowski, listen to this. The of course,
20:54
Speaker 1: cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
20:58
Speaker 1: know he was bludgeon According to police sources that spoke
21:02
Speaker 1: to the Post, Matthew played.
21:06
Speaker 2: Now this is the suspect. Brother.
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Speaker 1: Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shied,
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Speaker 1: fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
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Speaker 2: He's a grown man, I bet you.
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Speaker 1: Anything, living off his mom and dad, but that remains
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Speaker 1: to be seen. He played soccer at Tom's River North
21:26
Speaker 1: High School and went on to play at the elite
21:29
Speaker 1: Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he played college soccer.
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Speaker 1: That's a big deal. That's hard to do. Very few
21:39
Speaker 1: people make it onto a starting college sports team. I
21:44
Speaker 1: don't care how great you are in little league, You're
21:47
Speaker 1: probably not going to make it onto a college team.
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Speaker 1: He did, and he played on the college team for
21:53
Speaker 1: years at Wesleyan.
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Speaker 2: Was that not enough? For his ego.
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Speaker 1: Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
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Speaker 1: Big Ten soccer player played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
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Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
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Speaker 1: two time MVP off as.
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Speaker 2: A Player of the Year, graduated.
22:18
Speaker 1: From the Stephen m Ross School of Business, and had
22:22
Speaker 1: a career in asset management. Per the News now hold on,
22:27
Speaker 1: Phil Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an
22:32
Speaker 1: older brother, by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan,
22:36
Speaker 1: who is a shining star in his career. Phil Waters,
22:41
Speaker 1: you were talking about how you just couldn't find that
22:44
Speaker 1: much about the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out
22:49
Speaker 1: a lot about the victim. We found out a lot
22:51
Speaker 1: about the older brother, but not much about the alleged
22:56
Speaker 1: killer brother.
22:57
Speaker 2: Phil, You're right, well, I'll.
22:59
Speaker 7: Tell you what. It's just an indication.
23:01
Speaker 6: And again, and I'm looking at this thing as a
23:03
Speaker 6: homicide cop walking into this scene.
23:05
Speaker 7: I agree with the doctor to the good degree.
23:08
Speaker 6: That once he started the killing, that he was getting
23:13
Speaker 6: into the experience. And look, it started that this fuse
23:18
Speaker 6: started burning a long time ago, in my opinion, and
23:23
Speaker 6: it finally got to the point where something happened in
23:26
Speaker 6: that apartment that day between he and his brother that
23:30
Speaker 6: finally blew the lid off of this thing. And so again,
23:34
Speaker 6: these things don't happen in a vacuum.
23:36
Speaker 7: I just think it is it's.
23:40
Speaker 6: I think there's more to it than just a simple jealousy.
23:43
Speaker 6: This is something that is built and built and built
23:46
Speaker 6: over years from a lot of different directions. And I
23:49
Speaker 6: think the fact that we know very little about the
23:53
Speaker 6: suspect in this case to me as a homicide cop,
23:56
Speaker 6: as an indicator, That's why I would want to get
23:58
Speaker 6: him in an interview room and delved into where does
24:02
Speaker 6: this start and how did it manifest itself into this
24:05
Speaker 6: brutal evil killing of his brother?
24:09
Speaker 1: Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
24:15
Speaker 1: a college soccer star in their rise the apartment Listen?
24:18
Speaker 4: At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
24:21
Speaker 4: awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurkin major's in
24:25
Speaker 4: Business Administration, Accounting and Finance graduates with honors and lands
24:29
Speaker 4: a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
24:31
Speaker 1: Wow, what you were seeing is from that we are
24:34
Speaker 1: soccer at Michigan Facebook page The Little Brother Now did
24:40
Speaker 1: a shining star Listen.
24:42
Speaker 4: A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
24:45
Speaker 4: murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
24:48
Speaker 4: fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
24:52
Speaker 4: Thirty one year old Matthew Herkan is now in police
24:54
Speaker 4: custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
24:57
Speaker 4: golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon maybe brother
25:01
Speaker 4: Joseph Hurkin, who is an even more successful athlete, to death.
25:04
Speaker 4: Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing an eye
25:07
Speaker 4: and a bloody plate and fork were found not far
25:10
Speaker 4: from his body.
25:11
Speaker 1: Straight out to Sam Bassie joining us, a veteran trial
25:14
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Texas, what do you make of the
25:17
Speaker 1: fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
25:23
Speaker 1: let's hues coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
25:27
Speaker 1: Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
25:30
Speaker 1: he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
25:33
Speaker 1: stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
25:38
Speaker 1: both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
25:43
Speaker 1: That actually adds to the legal formula here.
25:47
Speaker 7: I think it does.
25:48
Speaker 8: I think it adds to the speculation that it might
25:50
Speaker 8: have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
25:53
Speaker 8: be really angry at his brother and just go off
25:56
Speaker 8: on him and he just didn't stop too.
25:59
Speaker 1: Doctor Jan Gorney, a former medical examiner in Vegas Gorniac
26:04
Speaker 1: way in.
26:04
Speaker 10: So we were talking before about the eye gouging being
26:08
Speaker 10: post mortem.
26:09
Speaker 9: I believe it post mortem.
26:10
Speaker 10: It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
26:15
Speaker 10: gonna fight. We're gonna fight back. Also, where I said,
26:19
Speaker 10: it's also it's I guess my job is easier than
26:22
Speaker 10: the detectives or the attorneys because we're just involved with
26:26
Speaker 10: the cause and the manner of death. So we know
26:29
Speaker 10: the cause, you know, blunt force injury, sharp force injuries.
26:32
Speaker 10: The manner of death is homicide. We don't deal in
26:36
Speaker 10: with the whys, but as humans we always want to know. So,
26:40
Speaker 10: but we're sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
26:45
Speaker 9: And but that's what we do.
26:46
Speaker 10: We because it doesn't make sense, so we're trying to
26:49
Speaker 10: make sense of it and try to come up with
26:50
Speaker 10: a story. But I also have to say we haven't
26:53
Speaker 10: talked about mental health. I think mental health plays a
26:58
Speaker 10: big role in this case. We don't know his mental status.
27:04
Speaker 10: Maybe he, like you said, didn't get along with his brother,
27:07
Speaker 10: but there could be some underlying mental health issues that
27:10
Speaker 10: he is undiagnosed, untreated.
27:13
Speaker 9: But there's something else definitely going on.
27:15
Speaker 1: Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
27:21
Speaker 1: Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
27:25
Speaker 9: I did not.
27:27
Speaker 1: I did not, Okay, But yet you are saying there's
27:30
Speaker 1: a mental health issue. Can I ask you do you
27:32
Speaker 1: have a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis,
27:37
Speaker 1: treatment prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the
27:41
Speaker 1: alleged killer, may have had. Do you know anything at
27:45
Speaker 1: all regarding that.
27:46
Speaker 2: I don't.
27:47
Speaker 10: I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
27:52
Speaker 10: we're trying to figure out what's the case.
27:54
Speaker 1: So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
27:58
Speaker 1: Yet you are because he killed his brother and gouts
28:02
Speaker 1: his eye out, that he must have a mental illness.
28:06
Speaker 2: Is that in your supposition? That is not it?
28:09
Speaker 10: I said, we cannot not think about it. We have
28:11
Speaker 10: to think about it. We're thinking about everything else. But
28:15
Speaker 10: we do have a mental health issue in this country
28:18
Speaker 10: that there's a lot of people that aren't treated, and
28:20
Speaker 10: we have to make sure that that's not it's not
28:24
Speaker 10: the why, it's not an excuse. But this obviously is
28:28
Speaker 10: not normal behavior.
28:29
Speaker 1: You.
28:29
Speaker 9: I mean, I grew up with.
28:30
Speaker 2: A sister, Doctor Gorniat.
28:32
Speaker 1: Yet again, we doctor Gorney, be half of all murder
28:37
Speaker 1: victims across our country.
28:39
Speaker 2: Do you believe murdering.
28:41
Speaker 1: Anyone, let's just say, an infant lying in its crib.
28:45
Speaker 2: Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay?
28:48
Speaker 1: No, then somehow, because the eyes gouged out, you are
28:53
Speaker 1: saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have a
28:58
Speaker 1: mental health issue. And in my world, what that means
29:02
Speaker 1: is he will go to a treatment facility and ultimately
29:04
Speaker 1: walk free in about eighteen months.
29:07
Speaker 2: That's what vig means. Dr Gorniac.
29:10
Speaker 9: No, No, that's not what I'm saying.
29:12
Speaker 10: So because there's also you have and I'm not a lawyer,
29:15
Speaker 10: I don't try cases, but I know there's things about
29:17
Speaker 10: guilty by reason of insanity.
29:19
Speaker 9: I'm not saying he's insane, but there has to be.
29:23
Speaker 9: We can't none.
29:23
Speaker 2: Why did you bring it up?
29:24
Speaker 9: There's things I bought you.
29:27
Speaker 2: Not saying, then why did you bring it up?
29:31
Speaker 9: Joining me.
29:33
Speaker 1: With Patch Media. Karen, isn't it true? And this is
29:36
Speaker 1: a lightning round, Karen, isn't it true that the alleged killer,
29:42
Speaker 1: the brother the middle child, called nine one one?
29:45
Speaker 2: Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he called nine one one?
29:49
Speaker 1: And isn't it also true when the police arrived he
29:53
Speaker 1: opened the door and essentially led them according to the
29:56
Speaker 1: post to there's the body right?
29:59
Speaker 2: Yes?
30:00
Speaker 6: Yes.
30:01
Speaker 3: A family tragedy in New Jersey, a Princeton murder suspect
30:05
Speaker 3: kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
30:08
Speaker 3: and golf club.
30:11
Speaker 1: So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
30:18
Speaker 1: he did was wrong.
30:20
Speaker 2: And report it to nine one one.
30:22
Speaker 1: An usher in the police, Sam Bassett, This is a
30:27
Speaker 1: yes no, because I.
30:29
Speaker 2: Know you're going to want to argue this till you're
30:31
Speaker 2: blue in the face.
30:33
Speaker 1: But isn't our law In the American jurisprudence insanity is
30:39
Speaker 1: based on the old McNaughton rule that was brought over
30:42
Speaker 1: in our common law from Great Britain.
30:43
Speaker 2: And the McNaughton rule of insanity.
30:46
Speaker 1: Is litmus, and it is did Purp know right from
30:51
Speaker 1: wrong at the time of the incident, not now that
30:56
Speaker 1: he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy. At
30:59
Speaker 1: the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal to
31:02
Speaker 1: know what he did was wrong and call nine one
31:04
Speaker 1: one and bring in the police.
31:06
Speaker 2: Isn't that true?
31:07
Speaker 8: That is true?
31:09
Speaker 2: Call is not I knew you were going to say
31:11
Speaker 2: something else, but go ahead.
31:12
Speaker 8: Call is an indicative that he knew what was going on.
31:16
Speaker 7: But you have to look beyond that.
31:24
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
31:30
Speaker 1: To doctor gorneyat no offense because I consider your friend
31:34
Speaker 1: and a colleague. But I don't tell you how to
31:38
Speaker 1: perform an autopsy. Do I have I ever told you
31:41
Speaker 1: how to perform an autopsy?
31:42
Speaker 7: No?
31:43
Speaker 9: As But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsyist.
31:47
Speaker 10: I am a doctor first, So when I do autopsies,
31:52
Speaker 10: we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
31:54
Speaker 10: going to say whether someone is guilty or not. I
31:57
Speaker 10: also have to look at the medical.
32:00
Speaker 9: History social history of my patient also, So.
32:04
Speaker 10: Your pain to say that my patient, right, I will.
32:09
Speaker 9: I'm not You're.
32:10
Speaker 1: Talking about mental health issue on the alleged killer. That's
32:14
Speaker 1: not your patient, is it.
32:15
Speaker 9: It's not?
32:16
Speaker 10: But I'm saying I'm saying he's crazy mental I have anxiety.
32:20
Speaker 9: That is a mental health disorder.
32:23
Speaker 10: Honestly anxiety right now, But I'm saying so depression, anxiety,
32:27
Speaker 10: personality disorder. But there's there's something else in my opinion,
32:33
Speaker 10: right And I'm not diagnosing. I'm not saying he's insane.
32:36
Speaker 10: I'm not saying he didn't know right from wrong. But
32:38
Speaker 10: it's part of You're trying to figure out what else
32:41
Speaker 10: is in his history? So what else is in his history?
32:45
Speaker 10: And I think medical mental social history is very important
32:50
Speaker 10: when you're going to look at the totality of why
32:53
Speaker 10: someone did something.
32:54
Speaker 1: How about his main as hell and he is consumed mind, body,
32:59
Speaker 1: and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
33:05
Speaker 1: little brother.
33:07
Speaker 2: What about that's not a mental illness?
33:10
Speaker 10: But well maybe it's a coping Why isn't he Why
33:13
Speaker 10: isn't he able to cope with that?
33:14
Speaker 9: Why isn't he able to.
33:16
Speaker 10: Say congratulations there and not be that jealous?
33:19
Speaker 2: I understand, I understand that.
33:20
Speaker 9: I'm not arguing.
33:21
Speaker 2: I might say I get it.
33:23
Speaker 10: But I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
33:27
Speaker 10: And I'm just saying there's many layers to everybody, and
33:31
Speaker 10: we have to look at his social history.
33:33
Speaker 9: You know, does he abuse drugs? I don't know. Does
33:36
Speaker 9: he use alcohol?
33:38
Speaker 2: We don't know that.
33:38
Speaker 13: We child, my goodness, we have no evidence of drug
33:44
Speaker 13: ins And just f y before you burn that out again,
33:48
Speaker 13: voluntary use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
33:52
Speaker 13: under the mad I don't care.
33:54
Speaker 2: If he does not have a drug problem.
33:56
Speaker 1: I don't care if he drinks himself silly breakfast, lunch
33:59
Speaker 1: and dinner. That is not an excuse. How about this,
34:02
Speaker 1: Kalashewski consumed with jealousy starting from day one, when that child,
34:10
Speaker 1: the baby brother, the murder victim.
34:13
Speaker 2: Is brought home from the hospital.
34:15
Speaker 1: And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it,
34:18
Speaker 1: and then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
34:21
Speaker 1: gets outshined in school.
34:23
Speaker 2: The brother gets this great job. He doesn't.
34:27
Speaker 1: In fact, can I see the picture the alleged killer
34:31
Speaker 1: posted the day before the murder.
34:34
Speaker 2: While the brother's.
34:35
Speaker 1: Out working, the murder victim, the purpose at home taking
34:40
Speaker 1: selfies of him.
34:41
Speaker 2: With a cat toy. There you go, this is him.
34:45
Speaker 1: While the brother is out making a living, he's at
34:49
Speaker 1: home taking selfies with a cat toy.
34:53
Speaker 12: Kalashevski, Well, the bottom line is, and I think the
34:56
Speaker 12: medical examiner was getting into this. It's not usual for
35:00
Speaker 12: her to do an autopsy and a murder victim where
35:03
Speaker 12: the eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you
35:09
Speaker 12: can go with the theory of this is a jealous
35:11
Speaker 12: brother rage. But there's a lot of weird stuff going
35:15
Speaker 12: on beyond just a murder that happened, and I think
35:18
Speaker 12: those are the things that people are noticing more than
35:21
Speaker 12: the straightforward murder case. And I think that's why these
35:25
Speaker 12: questions of mental health comes up because of these sort
35:27
Speaker 12: of unusual, weird things are outside of just a normal
35:30
Speaker 12: I'm jealous of my brother and I hate him, and I'm.
35:32
Speaker 7: Going to kill him.
35:34
Speaker 3: I think he's dead.
35:37
Speaker 9: He's been shot. He's been shot.
35:39
Speaker 3: Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband was shot? Yes,
35:42
Speaker 3: how long ago?
35:44
Speaker 2: Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
35:46
Speaker 2: minutes ago. He was shot maybe fifteen by whome my
35:50
Speaker 2: son who's nuts, But I didn't.
35:53
Speaker 1: Know he was just nuts. Another spoiled rich brought preppy killer.
36:00
Speaker 1: That one is Thomas Gilbert Junior, who guns down his father,
36:03
Speaker 1: sends his mom out for a sandwich, and mommy trots
36:06
Speaker 1: off to the deli, and while she's gone, he guns
36:10
Speaker 1: down Dad because Dad finally was going to cut off
36:13
Speaker 1: his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr. And now we've got another
36:18
Speaker 1: spoiled rich Bratt who murders his brother.
36:22
Speaker 2: Now a lot.
36:23
Speaker 1: Has been made even of our renowned medical examiner, doctor
36:27
Speaker 1: Jan Gorniac, who ventures to guess maybe he is mentally ill,
36:32
Speaker 1: maybe he has a drug or alcohol problem, or maybe
36:36
Speaker 1: he's consumed with jealousy and finally kills his roommate, his.
36:39
Speaker 2: Own little brother.
36:41
Speaker 1: Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
36:45
Speaker 1: killer's poetry?
36:48
Speaker 2: But first, hold.
36:49
Speaker 1: On, I've taken the liberty of recording some of it.
36:52
Speaker 2: Listen, is that your voice?
36:54
Speaker 11: Or is that my voice? Was that the work of
36:57
Speaker 11: my hands?
36:58
Speaker 2: Or was that the work of your hand?
37:00
Speaker 11: Hands? Do you like to watch me suffer? Do you
37:03
Speaker 11: like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
37:09
Speaker 11: what is it that you want me to do this time?
37:12
Speaker 11: Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
37:16
Speaker 11: sacrifice everything to your altar?
37:19
Speaker 2: Is there not enough ashes already? Okay?
37:23
Speaker 1: I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
37:29
Speaker 1: But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
37:34
Speaker 1: murdered his little brother is complaining about the little brother?
37:38
Speaker 1: Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
37:41
Speaker 1: like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
37:43
Speaker 1: to do this time? Burn everything down? Must I sacrifice
37:47
Speaker 1: everything to your altar?
37:50
Speaker 2: Yeah? That's how I read it, Karen Wall.
37:52
Speaker 1: How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
38:00
Speaker 2: There's reams of it online.
38:01
Speaker 5: There's at least two that we were able to find
38:04
Speaker 5: that I was able to find in searching.
38:07
Speaker 2: But as the police detective said before, it.
38:15
Speaker 5: Was hours of searching to find anything to even give
38:19
Speaker 5: any hint of what Matt is about and who he
38:22
Speaker 5: is and what is going on. The poetry is very disturbing.
38:27
Speaker 1: Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
38:31
Speaker 1: he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
38:35
Speaker 1: but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
38:39
Speaker 1: Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
38:44
Speaker 1: He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
38:49
Speaker 1: He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
38:51
Speaker 1: inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
38:55
Speaker 1: me to do this time? Do you want me to
38:57
Speaker 1: burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
39:05
Speaker 1: President of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Phil Waters, Now,
39:11
Speaker 1: a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
39:15
Speaker 1: health as an excuse for what he did. But he
39:18
Speaker 1: called nine one one, he ushered police into the body.
39:22
Speaker 1: What I would describe this as is wishful thinking, blood
39:28
Speaker 1: coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
39:33
Speaker 1: the murder scene before he did it.
39:35
Speaker 6: I would agree to a degree of that. I want
39:38
Speaker 6: to come to the defense a little bit to the
39:40
Speaker 6: good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
39:45
Speaker 6: As a homicide detective, where we're going to try to
39:47
Speaker 6: determine is what happened and what was there? How was
39:52
Speaker 6: how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
39:56
Speaker 6: You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
40:00
Speaker 6: and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
40:05
Speaker 6: So I want to see is the autosi did the
40:08
Speaker 6: eye come out because he was beating him with a
40:12
Speaker 6: golf club and then once he saw that, then he
40:15
Speaker 6: went ahead and finished the job. So there's a lot
40:19
Speaker 6: of stuff going on here. One thing leads to the
40:21
Speaker 6: other and when I would attend the autopsy, which I
40:25
Speaker 6: did in every homicide case I haven't give with a doctor,
40:28
Speaker 6: and we would discuss what I found at the scene.
40:32
Speaker 7: So it's all part of the same formula.
40:34
Speaker 6: So the discussion about mental health is going to be
40:37
Speaker 6: part of the investigative discussion.
40:40
Speaker 1: Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
40:44
Speaker 1: A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
40:54
Speaker 1: am standing for the crime victim. You may think me harsh,
41:00
Speaker 1: but what matters is justice for this crime victim. The
41:05
Speaker 1: constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect
41:10
Speaker 1: the crime victim. A mental health finding could result in
41:17
Speaker 1: the defendant walking free in a matter of months after treatment.
41:23
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.