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Mini: Frisson: Musical Shivers · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
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Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. Many I'm your
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Speaker 1: host Abraham, and I'm your host Shane. We are a
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Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about all the things that people
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Speaker 1: do and non human animals do, and also we talk
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Speaker 1: sometimes about the experiences that we have that just they
0:31
Speaker 1: give us the feels.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and so today we are talking about free zone
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Speaker 2: or free Zone, which is something coming off right off
0:38
Speaker 2: of our Stendall Syndrome episode and coming to us from
0:41
Speaker 2: listener mail, which is really fun.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, so we are, as I mentioned, we are
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Speaker 1: a psychology podcast. We release these these short form episodes.
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Speaker 1: This is called a mini We do these. We release
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Speaker 1: them on Mondays. They're like ten to fifteen minute short
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Speaker 1: dives into a particular topic and we keep it sort
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Speaker 1: not sort of standard format standard format. Are these full
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Speaker 1: length episodes we release on Wednesdays that are closer to
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Speaker 1: forty five minutes hour and some change that sort of
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Speaker 1: We'll talk more about those things when we get to
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Speaker 1: the end of this discussion today, but let's go ahead
1:33
Speaker 1: and jump right in coming hot off the heels of
1:35
Speaker 1: our Stendall Syndrome episode, which if you missed, you can
1:39
Speaker 1: go back and check out if you're interested, because this
1:41
Speaker 1: is kind of a related topic, but that has to
1:43
Speaker 1: do with the emotional reactions some people have to looking
1:46
Speaker 1: at art that is largely happening in the context of
1:50
Speaker 1: them also being sleep deprived and traveling and all the
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Speaker 1: things that come along with that, and also being sort
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Speaker 1: of predisposed to that sort of thing. Yes, yeah, we
1:58
Speaker 1: bring you a mia via some amount of listener mail
2:01
Speaker 1: as well. We're covering freezon, which is French for shiver.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and so the definition of freezon is it's actually
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Speaker 2: a noun, So you have a freezon or you experience
2:13
Speaker 2: a freezon, and it just means a sudden, strong feeling
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Speaker 2: of excitement or fear or a thrill. So a lot
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Speaker 2: of times it's using the context of describing kind of
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Speaker 2: like a heightened emotional experience in the context of some
2:25
Speaker 2: type of specifically music.
2:28
Speaker 1: Yes, so this term refers to aesthetic chills as one
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Speaker 1: way it's been described. Or also psychogenic shivers could be
2:37
Speaker 1: an album name or maybe bend and both of those
2:39
Speaker 1: sound like they could be an album name.
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Speaker 2: Or I was gonna say, psychogenic shiver sounds like it's
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Speaker 2: a band of tours with the Hives.
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Speaker 1: Okay, and the first album is called Aesthetic Chills.
2:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that. I could see that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So this includes physical symptoms that might include skin tingling,
2:55
Speaker 3: some chills, goosebumps, pupil dilation, like you feel this in
3:00
Speaker 3: your body.
3:00
Speaker 1: It like could be measured by looking at how your
3:03
Speaker 1: body is responding to the emotion that you're having in
3:06
Speaker 1: that moment.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and so as as I was putting those together,
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Speaker 2: I learned a couple of new words, and so I
3:11
Speaker 2: thought this would be fun to share real quick. Parasthesia
3:14
Speaker 2: refers to when your skin is tingling or you feel
3:16
Speaker 2: those chills.
3:17
Speaker 1: Oh.
3:17
Speaker 2: Piloerection is when you experience goosebumps. That's the technical term
3:22
Speaker 2: for it, is goosebumps. And when your hair follicles and
3:24
Speaker 2: all that changes, and then mydriasis. Mydriasis refers to your
3:29
Speaker 2: pupil dilation, when your pupils change.
3:31
Speaker 1: Got it? Okay? Yeah, great, good to know.
3:33
Speaker 2: YEA thought those were fun, all right?
3:35
Speaker 1: So, as you mentioned freezan as a sensation that is
3:37
Speaker 1: mostly considered pleasurable, Like this happens when you're sort of
3:41
Speaker 1: at this this maximum state of consuming and enjoying something
3:45
Speaker 1: usually related to specifically music. But it's like these emotional responses.
3:50
Speaker 1: It's like you feel particularly moved by the music and
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Speaker 1: it gives you those chills, those goosebumps. That really is
3:57
Speaker 1: sort of intense reaction.
3:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I imagine if you, if most of the
4:02
Speaker 2: folks here are listening to this, if you listen to
4:04
Speaker 2: a lot of music, or like you have something where
4:06
Speaker 2: music is part of the context, then you've had one
4:08
Speaker 2: of these types of reactions, then you'll know what we're
4:10
Speaker 2: talking about. Just like a part of a song, or
4:12
Speaker 2: a song itself or the song in a particular context
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Speaker 2: just gives you this kind of emotional it lisits an
4:18
Speaker 2: emotional response which is pretty fascinating. So yeah, Essentially what
4:22
Speaker 2: happens is a stimulus or a cue, something in the
4:24
Speaker 2: environment will trigger your sympathetic nervous system and it just
4:28
Speaker 2: basically kicks into gear. And these cues are unique to
4:30
Speaker 2: that person. So whatever that cue is, whatever that sound is,
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Speaker 2: whatever that music is, that lyric, whatever it might be,
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Speaker 2: it's usually unique to that person and meaningful to that person.
4:39
Speaker 2: And basically what I'm saying is you've had to have
4:41
Speaker 2: some experience with that stimulus or similar stimuli or similar
4:44
Speaker 2: cues or something like that for this to occur. It's
4:47
Speaker 2: not going to happen usually right off the bat. For example,
4:50
Speaker 2: like the first time you hear music might be pretty powerful,
4:53
Speaker 2: but you're not going to have this type of reaction
4:55
Speaker 2: unless it's going to be maybe you've already had a
4:57
Speaker 2: similar reaction previously, or like you've had some experienced with
5:00
Speaker 2: that particular cue, is what I mean.
5:02
Speaker 1: And it's important that the sensation lasts only a few seconds.
5:06
Speaker 1: It may sort of come in waves. You might experience
5:08
Speaker 1: sort of a wave of sensation, and as we said,
5:10
Speaker 1: it will you kind of feel over your whole body,
5:13
Speaker 1: especially if the cues are consistent and powerful enough you'll
5:16
Speaker 1: sort of feel this like, you know, this whole sensation
5:20
Speaker 1: that you feel spread around sort of your whole your
5:22
Speaker 1: whole body, or at least you know, most of most
5:24
Speaker 1: of your body as you're listening to something. But it
5:27
Speaker 1: doesn't last very long. It doesn't. It's not usually a
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Speaker 1: super long ongoing thing, which is how I mostly prefer
5:32
Speaker 1: ads to be. Oh so it's not very long. Okay,
5:42
Speaker 1: So we've been talking sort of about what freeze on
5:45
Speaker 1: is this idea of it being this sort of emotional
5:48
Speaker 1: reaction that we mostly get when we're listening to music,
5:50
Speaker 1: and it really it really captures us in the right way.
5:53
Speaker 1: So we want to then try to underpack sort of
5:55
Speaker 1: how this happens, like what's going on here?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there are infinite causes for these sensations, because
6:01
Speaker 2: there are infinite cues in our world and what we
6:03
Speaker 2: can access. But given the each qu or each experience
6:06
Speaker 2: is unique to the individual, we can maybe try to
6:08
Speaker 2: categorize this a little bit. So generally speaking, there are
6:11
Speaker 2: a few things that might actually trigger these sensations. The
6:13
Speaker 2: first one are is this idea of changes or disruptions
6:17
Speaker 2: or violations of musical expectancy. So earlier when I was
6:21
Speaker 2: saying that we had to have maybe some experience with
6:23
Speaker 2: music to kind of understand it or have like a
6:26
Speaker 2: feeling for what music should be. Sometimes what happens is
6:29
Speaker 2: if we're listening to a song and there's a sudden
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Speaker 2: change of the key or the tempo or the tone
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Speaker 2: that we didn't expect. It could be pleasant, it could
6:36
Speaker 2: be unpleasant, it could be in any other way or
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Speaker 2: changing like the drum pattern that alters the feeling of
6:42
Speaker 2: a song, that can actually trigger one of these sensations.
6:44
Speaker 1: And I definitely have heard people talk about this part
6:47
Speaker 1: of this, or you might hear this. You might be
6:49
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, okay, I got it. So it's like
6:52
Speaker 1: this sudden it's unexpected. Well, if you think about it,
6:56
Speaker 1: if it's unexpected, that means that you had to expect
6:59
Speaker 1: something to begin with. And you can only expect something
7:02
Speaker 1: if you have some history with that thing. So it's
7:06
Speaker 1: like you're essentially you can kind of groove to the
7:09
Speaker 1: music already. You already know, you're sort of flowing with it.
7:12
Speaker 1: You're like, I like this style, I like these beats,
7:14
Speaker 1: you know whatever. This is not super out of the norm.
7:17
Speaker 1: And also, music historically tends to follow very patterned sort
7:21
Speaker 1: of presentation. In the context of a song, you will
7:24
Speaker 1: have notes follow other notes that will specifically resolve in
7:27
Speaker 1: a particular way. You'll have patterns that keep pretty similar
7:31
Speaker 1: tempo as it goes. You'll usually have rhythms that sort
7:33
Speaker 1: of repeat as they go, and it's sort of this
7:36
Speaker 1: elaborate tapestry of sound that's playing out in front of you.
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Speaker 1: And so it's up to that point where like your
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Speaker 1: expectations are these rhythms, these patterns, they continue, and then
7:45
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they can they move in a
7:47
Speaker 1: way that I wasn't expecting. By that meaning like they
7:50
Speaker 1: move in a way that all of a sudden is
7:52
Speaker 1: different from how I've heard this go before and how
7:54
Speaker 1: it has been going up to this point. So I
7:57
Speaker 1: think that's that's a really critical point that I think
7:59
Speaker 1: a lot of people point to it and they're like, oh, yeah,
8:01
Speaker 1: you're expecting it. I'm like, yeah, but what does that mean?
8:04
Speaker 1: Like how would that affect it? And that sort of thing. Sure,
8:07
Speaker 1: there's also dance performances. It's just kind of interesting here.
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Speaker 1: So typically this occurs co occurs with the musical pieces,
8:14
Speaker 1: both the visual and the auditory sensations paired together can
8:18
Speaker 1: also create this sort of frison experience here if you're
8:22
Speaker 1: seeing not only the music, but like choreographed movement visually
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Speaker 1: playing out to the music, that further heightens the experience
8:30
Speaker 1: of how you're sort of taking in that sound, the rhythms,
8:32
Speaker 1: the patterns, et cetera. Right.
8:34
Speaker 2: One of the terms that came up a lot too
8:36
Speaker 2: was emotional contagion, which feels interesting. It's like somebody who
8:40
Speaker 2: like doesn't want to be human is like, eh, I
8:42
Speaker 2: got happiness. Gross, this is quarantine me right? Oh no,
8:47
Speaker 2: So I was thinking about this though, And like music
8:50
Speaker 2: generally includes multiple components, right, So things like rhythm, tone,
8:53
Speaker 2: lyrical content, timber, all the stuff, right, all of these
8:56
Speaker 2: can elicit a response type and like maybe some type
8:59
Speaker 2: of respons or sensation. But what ends up happening is
9:01
Speaker 2: specifically when we have an emotional tie to whatever that
9:05
Speaker 2: is that particular song that the lyrical content, the lyrical
9:09
Speaker 2: content makes us think of another person, or think of
9:11
Speaker 2: a situation, or think of a time like that, we
9:13
Speaker 2: can also have those experiences as that particular cue within
9:17
Speaker 2: the song is related to something external from the song.
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Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. So essentially, like why
9:23
Speaker 1: you would have an emotional reaction is because it resonates
9:25
Speaker 1: with something important to you that you already sort of
9:27
Speaker 1: have in your past. Right, And for many people, like
9:30
Speaker 1: a lot of the more popular songs and lyricists and
9:33
Speaker 1: lyrics that are out there, I think the reason that
9:36
Speaker 1: they often will gain popularity is because they capture a
9:38
Speaker 1: feeling that is common to a lot of people. Right,
9:41
Speaker 1: It's sort of like I've always felt that way, I
9:44
Speaker 1: really feel this, you know, in my soul, or like
9:46
Speaker 1: this really speaks to me or whatever. There's also environmental
9:49
Speaker 1: and social contexts. Of course, Sometimes it may not actually
9:53
Speaker 1: be the music that is the primary driver of that experience.
9:57
Speaker 1: It might be the fact that in that experience, you're
10:00
Speaker 1: with someone or a group of people and a certain
10:02
Speaker 1: song comes on and the soundtrack overlaid with a specific
10:08
Speaker 1: movie moment, or like with your social group, and you're
10:11
Speaker 1: sort of feeling in a way like how this might
10:14
Speaker 1: feel to someone else, Like I'm sort of connecting to
10:17
Speaker 1: how they might interpreted, and you sort of can have
10:19
Speaker 1: a similar by association emotional reaction to it in that way. Right.
10:25
Speaker 2: One thing I thought found really interesting was that it
10:28
Speaker 2: was reported that This is more likely to occur among
10:30
Speaker 2: musicians compared to other groups of people, And the thought
10:33
Speaker 2: behind that is that these folks that are musicians that
10:36
Speaker 2: play music, they play an instrument, have a more nuanced
10:39
Speaker 2: understanding of instrumentation, so they might notice smaller changes, or
10:43
Speaker 2: they might notice some things that are a little bit different,
10:45
Speaker 2: or like flourishes in the notes or flourishes in the
10:47
Speaker 2: patterns that you might not pick up if you're kind
10:49
Speaker 2: of like a novice or a casual music listener. And
10:52
Speaker 2: so it's not that makes sense to me, but yeah,
10:54
Speaker 2: it makes sense a lot of sense to me too,
10:55
Speaker 2: like almost every like all, A lot of the studies
10:57
Speaker 2: included musicians specifically because they were so likely to do it,
11:00
Speaker 2: to have this experience.
11:01
Speaker 1: Got it. Yeah, There was a study Grew Green.
11:08
Speaker 2: I would go any through.
11:09
Speaker 1: Yeah that reads okay, g R. E W E and
11:15
Speaker 1: colleagues in twenty ten. They found that the same sensations
11:19
Speaker 1: can be produced through oral, visual, tactile, and gustatory stimuli,
11:24
Speaker 1: as well as sort of mental self stimulation, which is
11:27
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. However, they found that the participants' perception
11:31
Speaker 1: of these sort of chills were different across stimuli, where
11:35
Speaker 1: negative feelings were more likely to occur with standard sounds
11:38
Speaker 1: and pictures, and positive feelings were more closely associated with music.
11:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was interesting. So basically they said,
11:45
Speaker 2: like the negative feelings were more like the sounds of
11:48
Speaker 2: pictures had to be together, whereas like just music alone
11:51
Speaker 2: would would elicit more the positive The positive feelings.
11:54
Speaker 1: Usually adds illicit negative feelings in me SAE. All right,
12:05
Speaker 1: let's get back to describing some of the research on friezon. Yeah.
12:09
Speaker 2: So, del Campo and kel in twenty sixteen argue that
12:13
Speaker 2: both ASMR and frazon are experiences that align well with
12:18
Speaker 2: mindfulness practices and subjective well being and happiness. Basically, if
12:22
Speaker 2: I thought that was kind of interesting, if people can
12:24
Speaker 2: kind of report sensations around it and they're mindful of that,
12:27
Speaker 2: they can actually they actually report higher happiness indices and
12:30
Speaker 2: stuff like that as well.
12:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're sort of in the moment, I could
12:33
Speaker 1: see that. Yeah. Culver and el Alaila A. Laila in
12:37
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen found that there is a possible relation between
12:41
Speaker 1: certain personality traits of openness to experience and the correlation
12:45
Speaker 1: with the likelihood that someone may experience friezon. So there's
12:48
Speaker 1: the potential that people who are already more open, maybe
12:52
Speaker 1: more present, are then more likely than to report having
12:56
Speaker 1: the experience of Friezon exactly.
12:58
Speaker 2: And then Kumura colleagues in twenty twenty actually looked at
13:02
Speaker 2: sound music characteristics and found that darker, more compacted timber
13:06
Speaker 2: in music was more likely to elicit for sons, especially
13:10
Speaker 2: skin related symptoms. So you were more likely to kind
13:13
Speaker 2: of experience goosebumps if the tone or the feeling of
13:15
Speaker 2: the song was a little bit darker. Now, for those
13:18
Speaker 2: of you who don't know and are not not in
13:20
Speaker 2: the music world, timber refers to the characteristic or quality
13:23
Speaker 2: of a musical sound or a voice, as distinct from
13:26
Speaker 2: its pitching intensity. So what they usually use to describe
13:29
Speaker 2: timber as like sounds that are light or flat or
13:32
Speaker 2: breathy or airy or smoky or rough, or that's kind
13:36
Speaker 2: of what they're talking about there.
13:38
Speaker 1: I would describe the timber of Billie Eilish as falling
13:40
Speaker 1: in this sort of breathy whispery.
13:44
Speaker 2: Yes, like breathy whispery, a little bit raspy, but mostly breathy,
13:48
Speaker 2: like very like quiet and calm, and yeah, exactly.
13:51
Speaker 1: Very yeah, very quiet. Yeah, versus someone like Mariah Carey.
13:56
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I was thinking the singer of Arrows,
14:00
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, Steven Tyler, Steven Tyler. Yeah, like his
14:03
Speaker 1: is very shrill.
14:06
Speaker 2: Yes, yes it is.
14:08
Speaker 1: And sort of I don't know, there's a purity to it.
14:11
Speaker 1: There's a scratchy. Yeah, shrieky actually was the the word
14:14
Speaker 1: I was thinking. I was like, I mean, I think
14:16
Speaker 1: he can sing well, but there is a shrill, shriekingness
14:19
Speaker 1: to his voice, the timbre of his voice, if you will, yes, yes,
14:22
Speaker 1: for sure. I think that's what we have to say
14:24
Speaker 1: about friezan is some quick wrap up in some did
14:27
Speaker 1: points to us.
14:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, so freezon is an intense emotional and physical sensation
14:34
Speaker 2: generally related to music. Most often related to music, but
14:37
Speaker 2: it can happen out of their context, but it's primarily
14:39
Speaker 2: music centered, music focused.
14:41
Speaker 1: As many as fifty five to eighty six percent of
14:44
Speaker 1: people experience this at least once. Based on what we
14:47
Speaker 1: people have been able to sort of aggregate in the data,
14:50
Speaker 1: but as most likely to occur among musicians or other performers,
14:53
Speaker 1: people who are going to be sort of in that
14:55
Speaker 1: particular space. I do think, I know we're sort of
14:58
Speaker 1: reaching the end here. But there's a couple of things
14:59
Speaker 1: that I wanted to unpack really quickly. One of them
15:02
Speaker 1: is that one thing that I think would surprise people
15:05
Speaker 1: is the fact that it's the change in music that
15:07
Speaker 1: might trigger this. They might be like, well, I was
15:09
Speaker 1: expecting it, and you sort of have a build up
15:11
Speaker 1: and it fulfills on that resolution in the song and whatnot.
15:15
Speaker 1: And maybe for some people that is where that takes place,
15:18
Speaker 1: but for it does seem like in general, what they
15:20
Speaker 1: talked about is that tends to be the unexpected changes
15:23
Speaker 1: where people are more likely to resonate, and I think
15:25
Speaker 1: that surprised That might surprise some people. And the other
15:28
Speaker 1: is you might expect, like, if this is a good
15:30
Speaker 1: feeling thing, then you're expecting sort of happier, lighter, more
15:34
Speaker 1: active sort of music and less of the sort of dark, darker,
15:38
Speaker 1: sort of gloomier music. And again some people that might
15:40
Speaker 1: be the case. They hear these very uplifting, very powerful
15:43
Speaker 1: things and they get that freezon experience. But it does
15:45
Speaker 1: seem like, in general, most people get it from this
15:47
Speaker 1: sort of darker thing. And again, to me, I think
15:50
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense for a couple of reasons.
15:52
Speaker 1: One is that when the resolution changes, do something that
15:56
Speaker 1: was not where that where you might have thought that
15:58
Speaker 1: would go based on how the music is good bend
16:01
Speaker 1: going and your experience with it, and you're like really
16:03
Speaker 1: intune and present and with it. And also like dark
16:06
Speaker 1: music tends to be leaning on a particular emotion harder,
16:10
Speaker 1: it tends to be sort of pushing you toward this
16:13
Speaker 1: like deep feeling sort of thing. So I feel like
16:15
Speaker 1: those actually do resonate with me, and I think, like,
16:19
Speaker 1: as I mentioned before, it's important to understand the cultural
16:22
Speaker 1: context here. Of Like in a particular culture where we
16:25
Speaker 1: have a certain note layouts that we hear in most
16:27
Speaker 1: of the music we listen to, those notes tend to
16:29
Speaker 1: follow a particular predictive scale and tend to resolve in
16:33
Speaker 1: similar ways that Like, that's where there's an opportunity for
16:36
Speaker 1: expectations to be violated. If you were to listen to
16:38
Speaker 1: music you were wholly unfamiliar with they use different notes
16:41
Speaker 1: in different scales and different keys, then it's changed might
16:45
Speaker 1: not even register is important to you or like that
16:47
Speaker 1: the things about it that would trigger Frizon, and someone
16:49
Speaker 1: who grew up around that music may not even like
16:52
Speaker 1: you may not even notice that that happened, whereas for
16:55
Speaker 1: someone else that's very powerful, And that could even be
16:57
Speaker 1: true around music that you were raised with, because again,
17:00
Speaker 1: it depends on so many variables that are personal to
17:02
Speaker 1: you and the context that you're in at the moment
17:04
Speaker 1: and other things going on that are sort of that
17:06
Speaker 1: are relevant to both the sonic the musical features as
17:09
Speaker 1: well as sort of the context that you're in personally,
17:12
Speaker 1: emotionally and mentally in that space, right, But I believe
17:16
Speaker 1: that I have had this experience. I feel like I
17:18
Speaker 1: have heard music that triggers this in me. Not very commonly,
17:22
Speaker 1: matter of fact, very rarely, but I do believe I've
17:24
Speaker 1: had that. Do you feel like you've experienced freez on? Oh?
17:28
Speaker 2: Most definitely. I can think of a couple a couple
17:30
Speaker 2: of songs specifically that like, we'll still get pretty close
17:33
Speaker 2: after the first time I had that experience, Like I
17:35
Speaker 2: think of specifically Transatlanticism by.
17:39
Speaker 1: Death, Cafcutie Death, Caffricktiti.
17:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one that, like, that particular song gives gives
17:43
Speaker 2: me goosebumps.
17:44
Speaker 1: Okay, there are a couple of songs by the receiving
17:48
Speaker 1: end of Sirens that sort of had that yeah moment
17:50
Speaker 1: for me, Yeah, and others as well. But and so
17:53
Speaker 1: I think that also raises the point that it does
17:55
Speaker 1: not have to be the first time you ever hear this,
17:57
Speaker 1: and once you've heard it once, it's not necessarily unexpected.
18:02
Speaker 1: But there's something about there's a moment in the music
18:05
Speaker 1: that really carries it. So all right, we have gone
18:08
Speaker 1: very along. I hope that you have enjoyed our discussion here.
18:12
Speaker 1: I hope that you you also enjoy some experiences with Freezon.
18:16
Speaker 1: If you would like to tell us about it, we
18:17
Speaker 1: would love to hear from You can reach us directly
18:19
Speaker 1: by emailing us at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. You
18:23
Speaker 1: can also reach us on the social media platforms, in
18:25
Speaker 1: particular Blue Sky, and we would love to hear from you.
18:28
Speaker 1: You can also leave us a rating and review, like
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Speaker 1: and subscribe, tell a friend. You can join us on Patreon,
18:33
Speaker 1: and if you do that then I will read your
18:34
Speaker 1: name on full length episodes. You'll also get some bonus
18:37
Speaker 1: content and that sort of thing. We can pick up
18:39
Speaker 1: some merch at our merch store. Thank you so much
18:41
Speaker 1: for listening, Thank you for recording with me today, Shane course,
18:44
Speaker 1: and thank you to my whole team. Is there anything
18:46
Speaker 1: I'm missing or anything you would like to add before
18:48
Speaker 1: we wrap up this mini?
18:49
Speaker 2: Not today?
18:50
Speaker 1: All right? May the free Zon be with you. Why
18:52
Speaker 1: We Do What We Do Mini is out.
18:54
Speaker 3: Hi.
18:55
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
18:58
Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other epiosisodes by
19:00
Speaker 1: going to WWD WWD podcast dot com.
19:04
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome
19:07
Speaker 2: day