Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Behind the Bar with Chad Solomon: Innovation, Cocktails & Insights Ep. 170

Transcript

Behind the Bar with Chad Solomon: Innovation, Cocktails & Insights Ep. 170 · Chef's PSA Podcast

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Hello chefs, this is Chefs PSA. I'm your host Andre Natera.
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Today I'm joined by Chad Solomon, director of innovation
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at the Cooper Spirits Company. Chad is a 24 year industry
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veteran who's worked at legendary New York cocktail bars
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like Milk and Honey Co, founded acclaimed Midnight Rambler in
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Dallas and helped develop iconic spirits like Saint Germain and
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Slow and Low. We talked about bartending in
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New York, serving celebrities, and what it really takes to
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build a world class bar program. Great restaurants don't always
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bring customers in. Great stories do, because in
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food, beverage and hospitality, what you sell is only part of
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the story. It's the why behind it, the
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authority you create and the experience that you built.
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Market scale turns expertise into content that connects
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podcasts, video series and industry education, not ads.
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Assets. Market scale has brought run the
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past and how to manage like an executive chef to life real
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world examples of how great content leads the conversation.
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Because attention is earned and the industry doesn't need more
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noise, it needs more leaders. Isn't it one of the most
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interesting relationships in a restaurant between a bartender
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and a chef or bartender and a cook, right.
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It's funny because I, I think back to, you know, like the
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trade off, like, hey, can I get some fries that like, that's
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where it starts. Like, hey, can I get a little
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bit of fries? Can I, can I take this out of
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the bowl? Can I get a sandwich?
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And the next thing you know is like, hey, can I trade?
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Can I get a Red Bull right? And then it's a slippery slope
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to what's that picture of apple juice to an under your
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workstation. Well, I, I think it's
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interesting when I started bartending, which was in October
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2001 after 911, my primary experience was nightlife and not
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necessarily in restaurant bars and.
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Were you in New York at this time?
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Yes, Yes. So you were in New York during
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9/11? I was, yeah.
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Yeah, I'm sure that's a story. There's a whole story there.
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Yeah, I. Mean let's.
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Well, so I had a day off and I was working in film production
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at the time. And so I, my, my, my buddy
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worked at Putnam Publishing and Penguin Putnam and down near
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Tribeca. And so I got into work with him
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that morning to he was like, Hey, you can come grab some
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books. And so I rode up, you know, the
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elevator with him and met his boss.
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And while we're talking, first plane hits and then we go over
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to the window and we're there, we watch second plate, you know,
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hit and, and then the we watched all the, you know, events
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transpire and we were only 13 blocks N, you know, the towers,
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which it, it was honestly seem pretty close, you know, 20
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blocks in Manhattan's a mile. So we're just being a little
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more than a half a mile, you know, from there.
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And you know, when they fell, that was just mind blowing.
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And that the dust cloud. So you're like.
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And so we were locked in the building.
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So we were locked in the building for safety.
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And I think we would have finally let us out like 2-3
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o'clock that afternoon. You know, it's about towers
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basically fallen, you know, around noon, you know, couple
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hours after they, they hit and a group of us went to go walk
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down, you know, how can we help, you know, whatever.
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And we were quickly turned around, you know, first
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responders. And I mean, the amount of the
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dust and the debris. I'm really like on my legs, my
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jeans and and then for the rest of the days, I live in
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Williamsburg and I didn't want to go back because they had
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already they shut down all the the trains, they shut down the
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the bridges, they shut down the tunnels.
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And so, you know, it was a beautiful day.
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And so you're like walking around and there's no cell
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service. All that's gone.
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And so we're just walking around lower Manhattan and ultimately
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like, you know, going up, you know, places and kind of running
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into friends and you kind of gather and it's just surreal.
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The one of the, the coolest things was ending up over on the
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FDR and everybody start cheering on, you know, the firefighters,
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the first responders that were coming down.
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And that was kind of early evening.
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And I remember staying in the city as long as I could and then
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finally walking over the Williamsburg Bridge.
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And I lived in South Williamsburg and that which is
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predominantly Orthodox Jewish neighborhood Hasidic.
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And so you had these Orthodox Jewish men out handing out cups
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of water. And so there were plastic
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glasses, you know, cups just everywhere, you know, 10s of
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thousands of them and they've been out there.
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It's a hot day and and everybody was very quiet on that walk, you
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know, over the bridge and contemplative, you know, it was
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just it was absolutely surreal to live through.
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And then like the next couple of weeks in lower Manhattan.
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And so I was. I worked in film and she.
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Worked in the industry, beverage industry at that.
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Time. Not at all, no.
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In fact, really the only hospitality experience we could
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call it that was here in Austin, TX at Ruby's Barbecue in the in
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the 90s, late 90s. I worked at the the counter and
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then I did some kitchen prep and then ultimately learned how to
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set fires. And they all they had, you know,
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the old Crites, you know, market style brick pits.
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And so I learned how to set the fires and, you know, all that.
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And I, that was a, that was, that was a fun gig.
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And plus that we're Antone's used to be up there.
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And so there was the interplay between rubies and Antone's,
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which was, which was awesome. But yeah, so I mean, a buddy of
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mine from Texas, I knew from high school in Houston, he was
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bartending at Bond Street and he was like, he wanted me to to DP,
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director of photography, you know, a small film he was doing.
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And he's like, wait, he's like you should jump behind a bar
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because when 911 happened for me, you had about 75,000 film
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workers, you know, there in the New York area metro area.
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And I'm like the lowest on the totem pole.
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I've got really no experience, you know, hardcore union, you
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know, industry. I'm trying to break into
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ultimately lighting and camera and I'm doing really simple grip
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and electric work, long days. I mean, those two years I worked
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production really didn't get out much, you know, very long days
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and long shooting schedule. You really it's, you know, it's
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all consuming. And so my buddy was like, hey,
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he's like, you should jump behind a bar and ride this out.
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And it was either it was a choice either moved to LA if,
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you know, if I wanted to go back to work or waited out in New
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York and they suspended all, you know, location permitting.
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When 911 happened, the mayor did.
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And because of the all the resources needed, the whole
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division of the NYPD, all resources, all hand stack are,
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you know, there for, you know, for the, you know, the
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aftermath. And so he he he was like, Hey,
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there's a little bar in Lower East Side called Milk and Honey.
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And I had heard about it because it had already was kind of like
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in, you know, underground circles as artists, kind of
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urban legend, really. And he was like, you'll learn
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how to make, you know, the most amazing drinks because it's
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unlike any bar you've ever been to the owners really.
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He's like, you're mine. He's like, you'll really respond
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to this place. And he goes in.
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The owner specifically looks for people with no experience.
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Why is that? Because obviously there's a lot
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of owners that look for that, especially when even chefs
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sometimes we look for a cook with 0 experience.
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But why? Why specifically in the bar?
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Well, so in the bar, it was the bad habits and also the culture
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and the culture of bartending at that time.
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I mean, you know, a God. We're so far in a lot of ways
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from what that was, but you know, it was it was very, you
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know, prima fascia, you know, headshot a lot of a lot of
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transient and people that were in the job to make a buck, you
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know, they were they were transitional.
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I mean, every server bartender was working on something else,
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including myself when I first got behind the bar, you know,
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and so. Was that common in the bar bar
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industry or is that common just where you were at?
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No, I think that was the city, you know, everybody there.
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First of all, I mean, you want to talk about the most amazing
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labor pool every, all of us had college degrees, master's
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degrees, the, the, the human capital, the reference points,
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you know, the people that you work with was amazing, you know,
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and so hot. Really, really, you know,
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motivated people are doing things.
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But, you know, for Sasha, he didn't want the bad habits.
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Also, there was just a different value system.
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It was, you know, very bling status driven.
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It wasn't there was, he was, there was a product fixation
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with him. But I mean, really there was, it
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was so much more than that. Milk and honey was about the
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total product experience and this, these words were never
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spoken. He would never talk like that.
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You know, it's in hindsight where you realize how immersive
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and how you know milk and honey. It, for people that don't know,
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set the stage. What was that like back then?
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Milk and honey. So Milk and Honey opened a New
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Year's Eve 1999 and a 2000 by Sasha Petroski.
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And Sasha grew up in the West Village.
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His, it's milk and honey was located on Eldridge St. between
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Broom and Delancey and Lower East Side at that time when it
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opened, you know, Chinatown had grown and kind of swallowed a
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lot of lower E sides swallowed Little Italy, with the exception
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of, you know, Mulberry St. which they've kind of kept.
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And at night, you know, they're the the street lights didn't
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work. It was dark.
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You had a lot of the Chinese fish markets on on the street
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during the summers. It smelled horrific and the
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heat, you know, kind of the rotting fish.
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It was not exactly a warm and fuzzy St. to walk down.
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And so there was an old there had been an old tailor shop
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there at 134 Eldridge. Sasha's grandmother had
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immigrated from from from Russia, I think in 1914.
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It lived on the street and Sasha was able he met the the Super
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intended of the building and was able to get a real sweetheart
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deal on a lease under 2 conditions, one that hire the
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Super Sun Kelvin, Kelvin's employee number one and that be
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respectful of the neighbors and not make noise and Sasha's like
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alone. That was very, very fateful
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because everything else about the way the bar was designed was
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to protect the neighbors and be respectful the neighbors above.
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And so, you know, there were rules that there's another bar
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in the East Village called Angel Share Japanese cocktail bar was
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kind of hidden upstairs in a restaurant.
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And Sasha cribbed several things from Angel Sher jiggering big
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ice on the Japanese, working and carving big ice for their
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cocktails. And he made the rules his own.
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He he really liked the precision and the consistency that
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measuring. And then there was, you know,
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Sasha thought the 21st century could look a lot like the Jazz
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Age and he was just a really old soul.
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So that was from etiquette to social decorum, obviously loved
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jazz. There was nothing fee me.
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It was nothing about being a Speakeasy.
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So one of the the biggest mechanism for respecting the
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neighbors was that you had to have a reservation to in order
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to come in and milk and honey and you had to make a
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reservation via phone number. But that phone number was never
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published. And so that phone number was
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gold. You could only get it on the
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card. Now, you could go and knock on
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the door and you might get a card, you might get in.
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But it took on this mythological kind of, you know, life of its
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own. And, you know, when you're in
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New Yorker, I think in any urban area, you want to think that
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they're behind some sort of, you know, unmarked door.
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There's a whole nother world, right?
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And when you got to go through that door and you were first of
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all, you'd walk up to the door, then you're buzzed in and what
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do you immediately where you're confronted with this very thick
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black velvet curtain? It gives you this prohibition
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vibe. Well, there's not even that.
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Well, there's that. Or like there's just a whole
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another world. And that's what would happen.
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You, you, you know, the door buzz, you open it and there's
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this immediately there's this black velvet curtain.
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And then you open that, you walk in, there's a second black
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velvet curtain, and then you open that and it's candlelight,
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it's Venetian plaster. And you hear the soundtrack.
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You hear the first of all, just walking in that room, everybody
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dressed. You know that everybody's
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clothes were tailored. Christie had a whole set of my
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my partner. It was how I got into milk and
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honey. Ultimately, she she served and
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she looked. It was like it was very
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transportive and very immersive. You walked in and it was like
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stepped in a whole different universe it.
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Reminds me of the way I'm picturing in my mind is like in
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Goodfellas when Ray Liotta's going through the back and
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through the Copa, yeah. Yeah, you know, you walked in,
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there was no standing allowed except for a standing rail,
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which is basically you were waiting to get on deck for a
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table. There's only 34 seats, you know,
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6 booths and four bar stools. And so, you know, once again,
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the, the when I think back on it, it was all principles, value
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system and an approach, you know, to hospitality that really
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rejected everything else that was going on at that time.
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And it became really the first audience that responded were
13:25
were service industry and that. So milk and honey didn't open
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until 9:00 PM, which was totally, I mean everybody else
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open at 5:00. But then I hope Milk and Honey
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would open at 9:00 and and then it was open till 4:00 AM.
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And in the very early years, Sasha would stay open later.
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You know, nobody was you could, there wasn't anybody really
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minding the store so much. You know, it was going to hassle
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you. So after hours was way more
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possible. And there was an audience for
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it. Whereas, you know, now the city
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is kind of everywhere. It's all going earlier.
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But service industry would get off work.
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They'd come in and sell you. I mean, service industry, best
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word of mouth. And so that was kind of the
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early thing and that that I think ultimately helped the bar
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in the long run because it you had that organic advocacy of
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people were like, Oh my God, these guys are on to something.
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They're doing something cool. They're putting on an incredible
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product. And you know, everything I've
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just told you is like nothing really about the drinks.
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But when you went in and you saw you watched the first time I
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went in, Sasha didn't need anybody at the time to, you
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know, to put a fine point on that when when my friend had
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reached out. So I ended up bartending at the
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Cellar Bar in the Bryant Park Hotel there in Midtown Manhattan
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on located there on 40th St. between 5th and 6th Ave.
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And at the time, ELO from the chef Rick Lackinan worked under
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Charlie Palmer at, you know, River Cafe in Brooklyn.
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You know, he had New York Times 3 star restaurant upstairs and
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we were in the cellar bar downstairs.
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His Psalm, the opening Psalm Kim, your name is Kim Johnson.
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She put together this insane back bar stuff I had never seen.
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And I think about how cutting edge it was at that time.
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But that was a really, really sexy room and free pouring
15:12
really cool products. But you know, I'm not a really
15:14
sexy hotel, New York hotel nightclub.
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And at specially at that time, that's when the boutique hotels
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and kind of the, the seeds at Schrager, it's own Ian Schrager
15:23
with his hotel group, the Morgans, the the, the Royalton
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and, you know, the Hudson, all of those that those were really
15:34
becoming these magnet spots. And I met Christy, she was
15:39
serving there. And you know, your first
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conversation, you know, it's like, oh, what else do you do?
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Where else do you work? You know what, what else is
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going on? Because everybody else has got
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something going, something else going on.
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And she's like, I work at this place called Milkenati.
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And so that I was like, Oh yeah, my buddy knows Sasha and she
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rolls her eyes and she's like, it was not impressed.
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And I later would come to find out that everybody knew Sasha
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and that was the people would come and knock on the door
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trying to get in. But I know Sasha, I know Sasha.
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And it became like this rolling joke with all of us, especially
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as you work there, you put up with it.
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And so the nut. So there were the 10 rules and
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you know, in terms of the I know Sasha, the number one rule was
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no name dropping, no star fucking except for the name that
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was dropped more than anything was the man himself who wrote
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the rules. And I know Sasha.
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I know Sasha, you know? And So what?
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Do you mean no star fucking? What does that mean?
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Well, so because if there's so much of celebrity culture, do
16:34
you know who I am? Like, and then if we did, we did
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get celebrities. We had, you know, it's in New
16:39
York City. You wouldn't bug them.
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You know, you respected their space, respected their, you
16:44
know, their, their regular people too.
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They're out for their night. They're out for a good night.
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And that includes from us, you know, we, you know, as taking
16:50
care of them. So I mean, there's that and and
16:53
I'll, you know, from the drinks standpoint, when Christie took
16:57
me there, Joseph Schwartz was part sitting and Joseph is, I
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think, doesn't necessarily get as much credit as Joseph
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deserves. And that without Joseph, milk
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and honey really wouldn't have survived.
17:08
He helped Sasha get it organized financially, you know, in its
17:11
second year. That set it up to to for a much
17:15
longer run. And but I walked in and first of
17:20
all, watching this, the jigger work was so precise watching
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this tight little bar that was like an F16 cockpit watching,
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you know, we, we, you know, we went on to call it the economy
17:34
of motion, watching him the way he built drinks.
17:37
And then ultimately he made me a silver lining, which is a
17:41
version, a variation of a silver, a silver rife is right.
17:44
Silver rife is, is a, you know, rye whiskey, lemon juice, simple
17:47
syrup shaking with an egg white. The silver indicates the egg
17:50
white. See it as silver lining swapping
17:52
out the simple syrup for liquor. 43 shakes it out, pulls out
17:56
about a glass from the glass Froster already with a hand
17:59
carved spear long piece of ice, puts that on the bar top
18:03
strains, you know, into that. And then with the we we use
18:08
bottle club soda, no guns, right.
18:10
We wanted that better carbonation.
18:12
And so as you build the drink, the head of the egg white starts
18:16
to come together, starts to to kind of tauten up and then it's
18:22
would rise above the glass and then the capper was he puts a
18:25
stainless steel straw in the glass.
18:29
And so when you go to sip that the all of the sensory that's,
18:33
you know, the the stainless steel straw, the perception on
18:36
the palate is it's even colder. It smelled great.
18:38
It tasted incredible. And in that moment I was like, I
18:41
want to learn how to make drinks like this guy, like I I you
18:44
know, it was just lulled manner of light bulbs are kind of going
18:47
off. It's like I want to know more.
18:49
And so that that's kind of set me off to the races.
18:51
And that's that was my entry into Milk and Honey and it
18:55
really saw a totally different side of the business.
18:59
There, there's a lot there, and I kind of want to jump into a
19:02
lot of different things because I have a lot of questions, but
19:05
let's go back to where we were right at the beginning.
19:08
The first question I asked is the relate, the interesting
19:11
relationship between chefs and cooks, or I'm sorry, between
19:13
bartenders and chefs. Sometimes it's great, sometimes
19:17
it's not so great. What do you think chefs out
19:20
there that are listening and bartenders that are out there
19:23
listening can do to improve that relationship because it is
19:25
important? Yeah, super important.
19:27
Yeah. I mean, you know.
19:29
A restaurant, hotel, whatever, right?
19:30
I, I've been in situations I've there where there's a lot of
19:33
tension and there's that classic, you know, front of
19:36
house, back of house divide and that it.
19:38
Stems from the knives? Yeah, it stems from.
19:41
Hey, chef, can I borrow one of your knives?
19:42
I need to cut lemons. Well, at their, at their, you
19:45
know, at its base level, you know the there's so much shared
19:49
and there's, you know, really there's aligned interests, if
19:53
you get down to it, for the establishment, but you know,
19:55
both can learn from one another. You know, the, the, the
20:00
bartender, not only, you know, in their own way, they, they're
20:03
producing the product the same way a cook is, but they're also
20:06
hosting the guest. They're selling and they're
20:08
collecting money. And in a way, they're the, you
20:11
know, one of the most independent people in the
20:13
operation. And so, you know, for that
20:17
reason alone, you want a tight and a, and a, a good working
20:20
relationship. You don't want the bars, you
20:22
know there. There's just too much power.
20:25
And think you know I we've. Too much power in what?
20:27
In what way? Well, I mean, first of all, you
20:30
know, outside of just serving food and ringing that in, you
20:34
know, you're the the bartender more than any other person in
20:37
the house, you know, controls the way that relationships going
20:39
to go. And then I never saw this in any
20:44
of the places I work. But I've heard all manner of
20:46
stories, you know, enterprising bartenders line lining their
20:49
pockets, you know, never saw that I.
20:53
Won't put you on the spot like. I've heard no, I mean, you know,
20:55
so it's, you know, a bent house. No, I, I didn't, I, I didn't see
21:00
that, but I mean, I, you know, I, I really kind of had a
21:03
Unicorn level experience. It wasn't the where I saw more
21:07
tension is actually in the consulting jobs and go and going
21:11
out. And so I think, you know, first
21:14
of all, the chef is the chef, right?
21:16
And so there's a hierarchy and the bartenders just have have a
21:19
lot of independence and I think there's a lot of tension there.
21:23
You know, I think that historically there was just not
21:27
the same value system. I also see a generational
21:30
difference. I think a lot of younger chefs
21:32
really get and I see a much better relationship.
21:34
And I noticed that in my relationships with chefs and
21:37
cooks and different interest level.
21:39
I think there's also a ton to be learned.
21:41
I think the way a chef organizes a kitchen and especially if
21:44
there's nobody lead behind the bar, I think pastry, the
21:49
precision of pastry with the kind of the the soulfulness of a
21:52
saucier, you know, for a creative bartender.
21:55
And now we're specifically talking spirits and cocktails,
21:58
right? You know, beer, wine.
22:01
Obviously there's not the same manufacturer, but I think
22:03
there's a lot of that both sides can learn from one another.
22:07
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I think some of the best
22:12
in the bar that I've worked with almost approach the the, the
22:16
cocktail making process like a chef, you know, at least what I
22:20
would view as a chef maybe that we're they're looking at us like
22:22
we approach food like bartenders.
22:24
But it was looking at the flavor profile and does it pair well?
22:29
And it is it going to pair well with the food?
22:30
Is it going to pair well with the snacks that are there and,
22:33
and how efficient is it to operate when the bar is full,
22:36
right? Because I think that we get
22:37
sometimes lost just like chefs do.
22:39
We create these beautiful dishes that are ultra complex with 50
22:42
touch points and then it gets busy and then it's like we can't
22:44
fucking pull off the dish. The same thing also happens
22:46
behind the bar. We make this great creative dish
22:48
and there's a line that's like, fuck, hold on, I need 10 more
22:50
minutes to finish up. How do you balance that?
22:53
Oh man, that's a great question lot there.
22:55
So I let's just approach it and say, what are the elements of
22:58
overall class bar, right. And you know to that kind of
23:03
touches on a lot of the things. And so first of all, this is,
23:07
you know, highly subjective and there's a lot of different types
23:11
of world class bars in terms of what makes them.
23:14
And So what I look at is it is the wider, wider picture and
23:17
say, well, you need to build a bar program that's complementary
23:21
to the kitchen. Is the kitchens it does the bar
23:24
reflect the same values and standards of the kitchen?
23:28
There's the overall concept. Are the decisions in the product
23:31
mix? Are they on concept?
23:33
Is there, is there a point of view of the bar?
23:35
Is that is that clearly articulated?
23:37
Can the staff articulate that? And you know, is there I would
23:42
challenge people to look at their programs.
23:44
There's any superfluous, what can you remove to tighten up
23:47
that that that concept? I also think that as you think
23:50
about your product mix and that means your cocktails and your
23:53
manufacturer, are they aligned with your door policy and your
23:56
seating policy and then the the concept of peak trade.
24:00
You know, you you create this amazing drink, but can you
24:03
execute it to standard on Friday and Saturday night at full tilt
24:07
or at brunch full tilt And you know I.
24:10
Think that kind of the measuring stick for every everything
24:13
that's going to go on the menu. It should be, yeah.
24:15
I mean, that's, that's, that's my standard and it has been,
24:19
that was our standard at Pegu Club, which would get, you know,
24:24
bigger. And so look, and this, this is
24:27
very much the same with the kitchen.
24:28
It's like the the more control you have at the door, more
24:31
control you have over your seating, the the more ambitious
24:34
and higher touch, you know, food or drink you can do.
24:38
And then, you know, the more that you're going to jam up the
24:40
bar. I mean, are you allowing
24:42
standing? Are you allowing it to get 234
24:44
deep? You know, you all that's fine
24:46
and all this can be great, but your your product mix needs to
24:50
be aligned to be able to serve that at its optimum.
24:52
Otherwise, well, you know, what I see more often than not is the
24:56
financial imperative. And I think this is really goes
25:00
especially when you're not in a city like New York where you can
25:02
kind of have a full house open a close because of the vertical
25:05
density of the population density, the city tourism.
25:08
You just there's always, you know, people to come in when
25:10
you're when you're really hitting.
25:12
And I think what I notice is when you when you get outside of
25:15
that bubble, you know, you've got basically you're going to be
25:18
busy from here to here. It's a peak trade.
25:20
And so whatever you can do to optimize your program to be able
25:24
to to be able to capture as much of that as possible on the
25:28
fiduciary side. But then on the other, it's
25:30
like, OK, well that's your box, you know, understanding that box
25:34
to you to put out the best and most interesting products that
25:37
you can. And how do you balance, how do
25:41
you balance the operational efficiency with quality?
25:45
Because a lot of times, and I'll use as an example, you, you go
25:49
to a big box hotel that that might be luxury.
25:52
They're a luxury hotel, but they're doing volume and they
25:54
don't have the labor to put on great, great, have a great
25:59
cocktail program, but they need to have a great cocktail
26:01
program. What are some of those
26:02
efficiencies that you could put in place in larger operations
26:04
for volume? So the larger operations,
26:06
especially now you've got, you know, none of this existed when
26:10
I came into the business. And so first of all, the number
26:14
of people out there that have gone through amazing programs
26:17
that have got a much broader skill set than previously
26:20
existed, there's a lot of loose talent out there.
26:23
Secondly is the way you know, the better programs have got
26:28
dedicated prep and so you can run with fewer people if you've
26:32
got really great prep. There's streamlining, there's
26:34
batching, there's smart streamlining and smart batching
26:37
that does not diminish product quality is.
26:39
That like cocktails on tap, things like.
26:40
That well, so that that's the technology side and technology
26:43
has gotten great. So yes, cocktails on draft,
26:46
there's a spot here in East Austin de Nada and they have
26:51
margaritas on draft. That place is doing like 500
26:53
grand a month in spirit sales alone.
26:56
Yeah, and you know, it's not my my friend, the great bartender,
27:00
Chris Bostick, you know, he's he's behind that program if.
27:03
You want to make a lot of money margaritas, right?
27:05
Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's the number one cocktail for like
27:08
the past 15 years and, you know, so, but I, I mean, I, I look at
27:11
like that, you know, now, especially in a hotel.
27:13
I also think, you know, I have the opportunity to to consult
27:17
and, you know, to put a massive program together for the
27:20
Fairmont Hotel organization. Ryan McGarry and liquid
27:25
relations. And ultimately Chef Kathy Casey
27:27
had gotten that deal to do the the Fairmonts and the VP at the
27:33
time of of Fairmont, he had been to milk and honey.
27:37
He had seen he, he had caught in the bug and he's like, you know
27:40
what, we're an old, we're an ageing hotel Group A lot.
27:43
I mean, all the Canadian properties, the old Canadian
27:46
Pacific Railroad, the financial imperative had changed.
27:48
They'd gone from a privately held company, you know, and to
27:51
publicly, you know, traded and then they were taken private
27:54
again. And so he had a lot there and
27:57
they were like, we need a shot in the arm.
27:58
And this, you know, he really wanted to improve the beverage
28:01
offering and in a way that he was really ahead of its time for
28:04
for a group that big. And so, you know, first thing we
28:09
did was like, let's just, you know, let's bring in, you know,
28:12
fresh juices, fresh ingredients, let's measure and.
28:15
The basics. The the the.
28:17
Right, the basics, right? But that's a giant level up
28:19
right there. And and the next thing is, is
28:21
that, look, you can go and put all the stuff in.
28:23
But the one the more than anything I learned learned as a
28:26
consultant is that there's all the technical stuff there, the
28:28
systemization, there's helping, you know, there's product
28:31
curation, drinks development, there's all that.
28:33
But when you walk away, it's the culturization and of of the
28:38
staff and the buy in that is the most important.
28:43
And so that you're a motivational speaker, like going
28:47
in and doing that. And So what I, what I, what I
28:50
realized though, and going and seeing, you know, we did many
28:53
other hotel groups is that they fall into the trap of trying to
28:55
be everything to everyone. And so, and then the, the nature
29:00
of hotels is this, this the transient management.
29:02
So you got this F&B director, you have this manager.
29:05
And they all have their ideas. They all have their ideas and
29:08
then you end up with a glut of product, you know, that's just
29:11
cash tied up there. And I think more than anything,
29:14
the modern, especially now more than ever is like, once again,
29:18
that's where I come back to. Is it on concept?
29:20
Is it on brand? And that, and you know, there's
29:22
so many different, you know, there's no one right answer, but
29:25
you don't need, I think that trying to not be everything,
29:28
everything. I think you just have really
29:30
solid, solid offerings across a basic general set.
29:33
And what you'll find is that must be like, OK, I can get
29:36
that. That's solid.
29:37
Great. Speaking of Fairmont and the
29:41
Fairmont San Francisco has what is the tango room?
29:44
Did you just because that that place is crazy?
29:47
They do. They do a ton.
29:48
I don't remember how much money they do, but I remember I heard
29:51
how much that restaurant does and I was like, fuck, they make.
29:54
They make money in that place. So.
29:56
We Bourdain did them some favors, too.
29:58
We did the the pilot program was for that for that Fairmont.
30:03
Originally they called it the Fairmont Fairmont artistic
30:06
Mixology experience fame. And then we later we the
30:10
mixology mixologist that's always never sat well with, with
30:13
us, you know, so we, we, we ended up changing it to the
30:17
Fairmont mixology standard, you know, across the group.
30:20
And it's just like, all right, it's still, it's the best word
30:23
for this more culinary approach to cocktails.
30:26
And the the Tonga room. I never got to touch, really.
30:29
And so they later went in and did that.
30:32
It really wasn't that busy when we when I was that back then.
30:36
It was great. I love that spot, man.
30:38
The, the boat that comes out. Yeah, you know, with the band on
30:41
it and then the lightning and the rain and it makes it.
30:43
Wild. So it's wild.
30:44
So I think when Anthony Bourdain did something there, I don't
30:47
remember what he did, but it was like maybe his layover show.
30:49
He went and made the Tonga Room. And now from what I understand,
30:52
the Tonga Room just prints money.
30:54
You know, I, I at one time I knew.
30:56
I just don't, I remember off the top of my head, I think pretty
31:00
sure I know who went in. And I mean, obviously you've got
31:02
Martin Kate and Smuggler's Cove. You got a, you know, incredible,
31:05
you know, tiki bar there in San Francisco.
31:07
I know they brought in, they brought in somebody really.
31:11
I heard it, you know, tuned up. I haven't been back a long time.
31:14
Wild. Yeah.
31:15
Yeah. What do you think makes an
31:17
excellent culture in a bar culture from the workplace, but
31:24
also culture of hospitality? Because how do you implement
31:26
that? You were talking about
31:27
consulting earlier. And I do a lot of consulting
31:29
work myself. I think one of the, one of the
31:32
hardest things when I get into a place to do consulting is we, we
31:36
could, we could, I could give you recipes, but you got to fix
31:38
the culture because if the culture doesn't, it doesn't get
31:40
fixed. Like these recipes don't matter.
31:41
It'll, you'll regress back to whatever you had before I got
31:44
here. So I spend a lot of time
31:46
focusing on philosophy and culture when I go into places.
31:50
What do you do on your end when you you know to create an ideal
31:54
state for philosophy culture in in a bar to make it a great bar?
32:00
Great question. Well, it really boils down to
32:06
leadership and ownership and the alignment and what's the value
32:09
system? What's the point of view?
32:10
What are the principles? And then you've got to be
32:13
consistent with that because your staff, if you're not
32:15
consistent to those values of principles, you watch it start
32:19
to fray. I think you know that it's so it
32:21
starts from there. You know, I think there's got to
32:29
be a realization first of all, that especially behind a bar is
32:33
that you're in the people business and you are a kind of
32:38
song and dance salesperson and you are ideally a bartender is
32:43
there to guide the experience. They are there to engage and to
32:46
engage in conversation. They're there to, to, I mean,
32:50
people have come out of their house, you know, or decided to
32:53
sit at your bar. You know, everybody restaurant
32:58
restaurants are different in an energy standpoint from, from
33:01
from nightlife, But I still think it, it, it holds the the
33:06
most ideal is where you can get a bartender to see somebody
33:09
after they got their, you know, their first drink is to then
33:12
take them on a journey suggestive, not just selling,
33:15
but you're taking them, you know, on a ride.
33:17
And so, and when you the reward that you see when you light
33:21
people up, when you turn them on is really, really sticky.
33:25
One, number two, I think that we try to like expose them to this
33:30
incredible. It's a craft.
33:32
There's all, all of the cultural elements of what's behind
33:34
represented behind the bar. You turn around on the back bar,
33:37
every bottle's got an incredible story, the story of the American
33:40
bar. We really are the first outside
33:42
the English to a degree, but really we're the first to
33:45
aggregate all these products in the old days, largely European.
33:49
And then we, we, we figured out ice and how to ice and really
33:54
turn these into recreational beverages.
33:56
And then we exported that around the world.
33:58
And that's our first culinary export is the cocktail and the
34:01
American bar. You, you still see that and you
34:03
know, the, some of the old joints in Europe are still the
34:05
American bar. And so I think it's like, you
34:07
know, I always figure when I go in and we're trying to align,
34:12
this is really trying to figure out from the ownership or
34:15
leadership, what are you trying to get done?
34:17
Let's I'm going to tailor a program where that's sustainable
34:21
for you guys. I because I can come in and say,
34:23
hey, that's what I want to do. But if that ownership or
34:26
leadership is not bought into that and then I get the bar all
34:30
excited. That's where you watch this
34:32
stuff go sideways. And so really, you know, just
34:36
understanding what the limits in the point of view are.
34:39
Beyond that, all the principles, you know, you're, you're trying
34:42
to get, you know, there, you know, there's historical,
34:45
there's cultural, there's the culinary.
34:47
You've got several levers to pull to empower and educate
34:51
somebody to get excited about what they do.
34:53
And you know, and 90, you know, 99% of the time guests are going
34:58
to respond to that. We talked about hospitality.
35:01
Is there a moment that you've had either receiving exceptional
35:05
hospitality or providing exceptional hospitality that
35:09
just stands out head and shoulders above the rest?
35:12
Yeah, so caught him, I mean a ton, but I think for for your
35:17
audience, I I've got a I've got a fun one.
35:20
So I had the opportunity to open Spice Market, John George Von
35:24
direct and in early 2004 and through that, through that
35:30
opening and training, I, you know, became lead, lead
35:32
bartender and that place was an absolute beast.
35:38
If you never got to go was in the Meatpacking District.
35:41
There were three bar stations in the main bar upstairs.
35:44
There were three bar stations in the bar downstairs in the
35:49
lounge, the place sat 300, but at the bar top, you know, it's,
35:53
I think it was it was 180 upstairs, 120 downstairs in the
35:57
lounge and that bar top upstairs.
35:59
They opened the doors 5-6 deep and luckily we weren't doing the
36:03
same full. It was more of a it was a bar
36:06
menu, so it wouldn't full dining at the bar top, otherwise it
36:08
would have sunk us. And it was just white hot.
36:12
And so one night I've got my head down and I hear this woman
36:17
asks you guys make mojitos and I'm I'm, I'm butchering the
36:21
accent even though. And so I was like that.
36:24
I was like, that person is from Texas.
36:26
And I was like, it's like, it sounds Dallas to my ears.
36:29
And I'm, I'm from, you know, Houston and Austin.
36:31
And so I look up and it's George Bush's twin daughters, and he's
36:35
president at the time. So I mean, I'm like, I got Jenna
36:38
and Laura Bush. Jenna Bush, yeah.
36:39
Yeah, Jenna and Laura Bush. And so I look, I look up and I
36:42
was like, and I just, I was like, of course I got the Bush.
36:44
And then I'm looking around. I was like almost not even
36:47
believing it. And I'm like looking for Secret
36:49
Service. And I was like, oh, there they
36:50
are. This is them.
36:52
And at the same time, GAIL Green comes in and sits down.
36:58
Legendary GAIL Green and and let me tell you, she chews up all
37:03
the scenery. Big presents, not loud, but you
37:06
know, I mean this, this is like watching like, you know.
37:09
A movie star. Watching, Yeah.
37:10
It was like, like Faye Dunaway or Maine W, you know, coming in
37:13
with all, you know, Lauren McCall at her prime and, you
37:16
know, coming and sitting at the bar.
37:18
And I mean, she's a, you know, getting comfortable or whatever.
37:21
And I go over and I'd, you know, drop a napkin marker, you know,
37:28
get her a glass of water, drop a menu.
37:31
And and one of the executives of of, of that group comes over,
37:39
you know, pulls her side at the bar and was like, do you know
37:42
who that is? I was like, I was like, yeah,
37:43
let's go green. Yeah, that.
37:44
That was going to be my question because what is the what what is
37:47
the alarm bell that has to go off that you now have to alert
37:50
everyone that hey, GAIL Green just walked in.
37:51
The chef needs to know who to How does that work out?
37:54
Clearly they they noticed her. Correct.
37:56
And I mean, there were so many people, but it was that so the
37:59
so the person, the woman comes over to me is like who that is?
38:01
And then I had a great relationship with that
38:04
executive. And so she and so then she saw
38:06
the Bush daughters and it wasn't like not don't take care of
38:09
them, but she's like, she's the priority.
38:12
Right, right, right, right. I understand the assignment.
38:14
They'll be pissed. She'll she'll make or break us.
38:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so anyways, so I, I, I go
38:21
back over to, to, you know, check out, she's had a moment.
38:24
I was like, can I, can I just offer you, you know, a drink or
38:27
can, you know, what can we do? And she really snaps at me and
38:30
she's like not having it. You know, I, I don't know if
38:34
she's having a tough day or what.
38:35
And so I was like, you know, she's like, no, I, I don't want
38:38
anything. I'm OK, cool.
38:41
And so I just kind of let her be.
38:43
And then, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm making, we had these kumquat
38:48
mojitos. So I'm making that for the, for
38:50
the Bush group. And I go back over and I was
38:53
like, I was like, it's that kind of day.
38:55
I was like, sure, can't get you anything.
38:57
And it just kind of like, I guess I saw her or whatever, but
39:00
she just kind of just kind of realized she got out of her own
39:02
way, you know, or whatever. And she just kind of like
39:05
flashed me at her. And she's like, you know what, I
39:08
do want something. She goes, I'll take a Meyers and
39:10
tonic. And I mean, that is an old
39:12
school order. Nobody drinks Meyers and tonic
39:14
anymore. But I was like, I'm impressed,
39:16
you know, like and I and I just remember, you know, looking at
39:19
going pro move. Well, then it just all melted
39:21
and then this great conversation happened and I could have been,
39:25
you know, oh God, this person doesn't want anything and it's
39:28
really allowed myself to get busy and every other way.
39:32
But it was just like, no, I'm not going to take rejection.
39:35
I'm gonna go over and be respectful.
39:36
I'm just, I'm you just, I'm trying to figure out, you know,
39:39
whatever way that is to, to, to connect.
39:42
And then, yeah, she was, she was a great guest.
39:45
And and then that executive came back around when she was smiling
39:51
and we had a great repartee. And so she was just like, you
39:54
know, fist bump. Well done.
39:55
Yeah. You hit on such an important
39:58
point that it's about knowing how to make a genuine connection
40:02
with the person. Whether whether you're, you know
40:05
the server at the table, you're the bartender, you're you're the
40:08
chef, what doesn't matter. If you can make that connection,
40:12
like, fuck, I went to a restaurant the other day and I
40:14
probably told the story too many times on the podcast, but the
40:18
food was mediocre. But the guy was just such a
40:21
great host. He brought wine and he had ice
40:23
cubes in it. Trying to chill it down is like
40:25
a fucking mess. But he's like telling us he
40:27
loved us at the end of dinner and it was like, it was the best
40:30
dining experience I've had just because of the warm hospital and
40:33
how you made us feel like we're coming into his house.
40:36
And I think that that gets lost on a lot of people.
40:39
And what's interesting about the bar is sometimes you're dealing
40:42
with those people that are looking for nothing else other
40:44
than the connection. Because it's like, I'm
40:47
travelling, I'm alone, I don't know anybody.
40:49
I'm sitting here by myself. I I'm kind of shy, but I kind of
40:53
want someone to talk to at the same time.
40:56
So I call that bar top maintenance.
40:58
Well, let me just let me step back.
40:59
It's, you know, once again, this is, you know, we, my line of
41:03
work, we, we, we, we focus a lot on product and the way drinks
41:07
are made and technique and, you know, technology and this and
41:10
that. And that's all, you know, this
41:12
is that classic Danny Meyer 5149.
41:15
But this is the people business. And, you know, I remind people
41:18
when we're training, it's like people have a choice and people
41:22
will go back and drink mediocre drinks or worse.
41:26
But if the environment and the people are fine and they feel
41:28
good, they'll go back to that over and over, you know, and
41:31
forgo the place that maybe makes better drinks.
41:34
But there's no connection or there's bad service or there's
41:37
apathetic service. You know, people are, you know,
41:40
they want to go where they're made to feel good and they're
41:43
they connect with that kinetic energy, you know, So as much as
41:46
we focus on all this other stuff, that's that's secondary.
41:50
Yeah, so call it the the concept of bar top maintenance.
41:54
So bar top maintenance or community maintenance is that a
41:56
really great bartender should first of all, you, you, you
42:00
really clock your solo diners, especially solo women.
42:03
And so like, you know, in the old days we were really, really
42:07
on our toes to keep the douche bags away from running out,
42:10
running off single, you know, women and just checking in.
42:13
You good? Is this guy bugging you?
42:14
You know, how do you? Handle the douche bags just out
42:17
of curiosity. Well, first of all, I mean, you
42:19
know, if anything, what we do is a politely intervene.
42:23
Hey, man, can we buy you a drink down here?
42:24
And you just kind of like, you know, separate it, especially if
42:27
they're really uncomfortable. And we just generally did not
42:29
intervene until it was like this guy's a bit much.
42:32
And then it was just like, hey, the, the, the, the little
42:36
lady's, you know, politely ask us if we could, if we could help
42:39
out. You know, I think she wants to
42:40
be left alone. And so you just have like a, you
42:42
know, a drunk conversation. Don't want to embarrass the guy.
42:44
Buy him a drink, you know, almost I've never really, you
42:49
know, had a problem. And this isn't that wouldn't
42:51
like a super regular occurrence, but it's a it's a great level of
42:55
especially, you know, especially back then, you know, a solo
42:58
woman just kind of looking out for solo travellers engaging.
43:02
And then the best is when you get people like what's your
43:05
name? What's your name?
43:05
What do you do? And you you're kind of you
43:08
keeping us going when you're busy.
43:09
That is your savior. You can do that is you get
43:12
people talking with themselves, you know, especially, you know,
43:16
we did this at Rambler. I remember one of our greatest.
43:19
We turned these two guys that would come in but by themselves
43:22
all the time. Finally, when I was like, hey,
43:23
cool guy one me cool guy two, we got the other.
43:25
They turned into best friends and you know, all manner of
43:28
stuff. I like that there was a the best
43:32
airport bar in the country is a place in Atlanta and Hartsfield
43:35
Jackson called 1 flew South and that it whenever I'm I've got a
43:40
long layover, I make a beeline and that is first of all, it's
43:45
the greatest, you know, airport bar because it punches so much
43:48
higher above its weight in that like you look at the product
43:50
they're offering and that experience those drinks, but
43:53
those bartenders are total characters and they it's just
43:58
seamless in terms of them connect creating and you're like
44:01
walking into cheers. It's, I was talking with someone
44:04
the other day and we were talking about, I think we're
44:07
talking about 11 Madison Park and how, you know, they've
44:10
recently gone back to serving meat and got into this whole
44:13
discussion on the importance of the beverage program in a fine
44:17
dining restaurant. And how, and I don't know this
44:21
to be true, but you could take a lot of fine dining restaurants
44:24
that will say, you know, for A2 top you're spending $500.00 for
44:28
the table. Well, you know, if we, if we, if
44:30
we have the books filled, we're going to do X amount of dollars
44:33
based on X amount of tables at $500.
44:36
But the thing that you don't know is the beverage sales,
44:38
right? So that that's the extra.
44:39
And there's a difference between the traveling chef who's going
44:44
out of their way to go to New York City to say, I'm going to
44:46
eat in X amount X restaurant that's going to order, you know,
44:49
a $50 bottle of wine or, you know, just two cocktails and
44:54
that's it. And the whale that's going to go
44:55
in and say Wall Street wallet flex, I'm going to drop 30 grand
45:00
just on beverage, right? And I don't think a lot of
45:03
people consider the importance of having a spectacular beverage
45:08
program and what that could do on the business side, especially
45:14
sometimes chef operators, because I think sometimes they
45:16
get so, you know, this myopic vision on just, it has to be
45:21
great food, has to be great food.
45:22
And then they don't think about like, yeah, but you can have
45:25
such a tremendous upside on sales if you focus on having a
45:28
great cocktail prog program with, you know, throw some
45:31
expensive shit in there. I met $0.50.
45:34
He's got his Branson cognac and a whole bunch of other stuff,
45:37
right? And I remember him saying in the
45:42
conversation that I had with him, he's like, I want to be the
45:44
most expensive. He's just because no one ever
45:46
asked for the second most expensive bottle in the club.
45:49
And I just find that very interesting, the psychology of
45:51
making sure that you're pricing yourself also at a good place
45:55
where you could also focus on increasing the revenue.
45:59
Do you put a lot of focus on that when you're building bar
46:01
programs for restaurants as well?
46:03
Oh my God, Yeah. So I mean, if you just look at
46:05
the the margins, the margins on alcohol margins on spirits, you
46:09
know are better than. For people that are listening,
46:11
what's typical margin? So, you know, look, the, the
46:14
industry standard is, is, you know, let's just say 80% GP, but
46:19
a good, you know, you can, there's a good menu mix,
46:22
especially when you, you hide that, you know, you can, you
46:25
know, you can go 85, even even 90.
46:28
It's got a little tougher. I mean, there, some of these
46:30
prices have risen, but then they're smart purchasing.
46:33
And it's like, you know, you're not buying.
46:35
I mean, tech, it just depends on what market it is.
46:38
It's not universal. Texas, we've got the, the 4th
46:40
tier. So you can't do, you know,
46:42
volume buys where you get case breaks, you know, where the, you
46:46
know, there's tiered pricing. But that being said, you can be
46:49
smart. I always say, hey, look, if
46:51
you're doing any type of batching or streamlining work in
46:54
your program, why aren't you buying handles?
46:56
Because 1.7 fives, you know, liter bottles are a much, you
47:01
know, they're generally a price break on compared to a 750ML
47:04
bottle, you know, or a liter, you know.
47:06
So I think there's, they're smart purchasing there.
47:09
I also look, you know, there's, there's a whole another, you
47:12
know, a whole other conversation on pricing, marketing and you
47:18
know, actual value. There are so many tremendous
47:21
products that, you know, are not that are really true craft.
47:26
True. They may not have the fanciest
47:28
looking bottle, but the juice is great.
47:30
Yeah, You know, And so I think it's just, you know, smart menu
47:33
engineering, smart product curation, you know, there's a
47:35
lot of value to be had there. Also, there's your experience.
47:39
I mean, look, as as romantic as wine is, there's an incredible
47:42
beer. Watching somebody manufacture a
47:44
drink or recommend a drink and then make that for you is such a
47:48
powerful experience. I mean, what?
47:50
Leo Robichek? Leo Robichek built the program
47:52
at 11 Madison Park and I'm her when Leo before he was head
47:56
bartender, you know, meeting him young in his career.
47:59
And I look at what that did for that room and that overall
48:02
experience. And then that turned into what
48:04
they did at the Nomad. And the Nomad bar was just, you
48:07
know, that was, that was a real flex in every way.
48:12
From a business standpoint and and I know that it's not an
48:15
exact science, but you have two different operations, a
48:18
restaurant with a bar and then a bar with a little bit of food.
48:22
What are the typical gross margins on, on the on the bar
48:26
side with a little bit of food? Like if, if you're if you're, if
48:30
you're going to go open up a business and you have a choice
48:32
and someone says, hey, I'm solely in it for the money and I
48:35
want to open up either a bar with food or a restaurant with a
48:39
bar. So a Rambler, which is the best
48:42
version of this. We did 18 to 20% consistently
48:45
year over year. And we'd had I opened that bar
48:48
in New York City, we'd run five times the revenue at basically
48:51
the same profit. So we would have gotten, we
48:53
would have been really able to outrun our fixed costs far
48:56
better. You know, whereas it just it,
49:02
it, it really depends. I think, you know, a solid
49:06
restaurant program with a bar can be at, you know, could
49:10
easily clock 15%, you know, and once again, it's just are you
49:15
set up to do volume? Volume is really the is the is
49:18
the big 1. So I always look for it now.
49:20
I mean, you know, COVID is, is as brutal as it was in a lot of
49:23
places you can do to go cocktails.
49:25
And so I think there's, you know, figuring out how is it?
49:29
How is it? You're compelling enough for
49:30
people like I'm going to go get A to go drink, you know, versus
49:33
just going to the liquor store. And and maybe it's not a full as
49:38
big a commitment as it is and sitting at your bar in your
49:40
establishment, but it's another revenue stream.
49:42
How do you develop the sensory analysis, the bartender palette
49:49
and the skill setter and and put into a nice little package?
49:54
OK, so first up, there's there are just your basic technical
49:58
skills. You're shaking, stirring,
50:00
jiggering, and you know, there's no, there's no, there's no easy
50:05
way around it other than reps, reps, reps, reps put in the reps
50:10
I always, we coach work with water, you know, so you're not
50:13
wasting alcohol. Whenever we do staff trainings,
50:15
wherever that is, we generally start with water work to
50:18
understand the basic mechanics and, and, and how and why, how
50:22
and why is so important in all of this.
50:25
How you know, you know, how do you, how do you do this?
50:28
And then why do you do it? And you know that for everything
50:30
behind a bar, there's, there's a how and a why answer.
50:33
And you should have, you know, you should seek out this
50:36
answers, tasting your palate straw, checking every one of
50:41
your drinks, taste, taste, taste, taste.
50:43
And then you need to build up your sensory bank, you know, you
50:49
need to taste the people who really, you know, staff
50:51
trainings, staff tastings are, are huge.
50:54
I think, you know, having a, having everybody in a bar team
50:57
shake or stir and put out the same cocktail and then tasting
51:00
amongst them. And ideally there shouldn't be
51:03
any variance. You want consistency amongst
51:05
drinks. The only thing that should
51:06
distinguish you as a bartender is your personality, you know,
51:10
but you're, you know, so there's, there's just all of
51:12
those kind of skills. There's the, there's the
51:14
historical and the cultural. You really, you know, I say
51:18
that. And if you do creative cocktail
51:20
work, really if if a painter has a canvas, a musician has
51:23
silence, you know, bartender, you'd say, oh, well, I've got an
51:26
empty glass. I would say no, water is your
51:28
canvas because water is the through line.
51:30
So learning how to paint and build flavor and water,
51:33
understanding the elements you've got, you know, alcohol,
51:35
you've got water, you've got acidity, you've got fat, you've
51:38
got bitterness, you've got a stringency.
51:41
There are only three cocktails that you know, there might be a
51:45
stray somewhere, but you got a fat based cocktail, which is
51:48
historically was a was a posit and then that rolls into the
51:51
flip, which rolls into the nog eggnogs.
51:55
You've got sour based cocktails where and so for fat, you've got
52:00
sugar, water, fat, alcohol, right?
52:02
For sour based cocktails, the prototype is Punch from India
52:06
that the English East India Trading Company bring back to
52:09
England in the late 1600s where you've got alcohol, you've got
52:12
water, you've got acidity in the form of citrus juice and you've
52:15
got sugar, right. So that's the basis for every
52:18
sour based string that comes after that you've got where's
52:21
the sour, the Daisy, the Collins, the Ricky, the
52:25
Daiquiri, the Gimlet, all of those are sour based drinks.
52:27
And then finally you've got the aromatic drinks.
52:30
And that's going to be a combination of alcohol, bitter
52:32
water, sugar, right? Prototype is the original
52:35
cocktail, cocktails defined as spirit of any kind of sugar,
52:38
water and bitters. By the 1880s we started calling
52:41
that an Old Fashioned. And so now you know, you'd have
52:43
a whiskey cocktail or a Brandy cocktail.
52:45
So the old fashioned whiskey cocktail is the old Fashioned.
52:48
So understanding that history, understanding the taxonomy and
52:51
then ultimately understand this elemental.
52:53
And then how are you combining these elemental things?
52:56
Also then there's texture, right?
52:57
We work in the liquid medium. Textual dynamics are far less
53:00
than a plated dish, you know, But still, how is it that we can
53:04
emphasize different textures and different serves and then
53:06
understand how to accomplish that?
53:09
That's like the foundational to put out good drinks, right?
53:13
And then from there, you know, I would, I would say, hey, learn
53:17
how to you want to, you want to learn something, teach it also
53:20
your interaction. So the greatest example I've got
53:23
is in 2006, I'm bartoning at Pegu Club and a gentleman by the
53:27
name of Rob Cooper comes in the door with Simon differed.
53:30
Simon differed for you don't know, he writes.
53:32
I has class magazine and difference guides based in
53:34
London. Those are big drinks
53:35
publications in the UK and and in Europe.
53:38
And I knew who Rob Cooper was because I knew who Rob's father
53:42
was. Rob's father was named Norton
53:45
Cooper went by Sky. Sky created Cham Board, and they
53:49
released that in 1982. And I had heard through the
53:52
Grapevine through Sasha, Sasha had run into Simon Difford and
53:55
Rob in London and that there's this, Sasha didn't know it was
53:59
Rob. He said, yeah, there's this
53:59
American kid developing this elderflower liqueur.
54:03
So they roll in a Pegu, they they drop.
54:06
Well, I see it's I knew Simon, this is Simon.
54:08
I was like, oh, who's your friend and talking.
54:11
And then he pulls out the prototype and he said, hey, you
54:13
want to try this? And it's the alderflower
54:14
liqueur. I was like, oh, this is Sky
54:16
Cooper's son. So he tasted this is like August
54:19
2006. And I said, and I said, wow,
54:22
this is really cool. But when you're bringing back
54:24
Creme Yvette. And so Creme Yvette was another
54:27
old product that Rob's father's had had acquired and they killed
54:32
it in 1969. And it's like an old cocktail
54:35
geek, you know, ingredient. And Rob was floored.
54:38
He's like, how do you know about that?
54:39
How do you know who I am? And that, like, set off this
54:43
great relationship. Well, so Rob shortly thereafter
54:46
was like, hey, can I hire you? I'd love to get your feedback
54:49
here. And where I'm fine tuning the
54:50
formulation. Would you do sensory analysis?
54:53
Well, that's everything I've been doing at the bar.
54:55
And so Rob invites me, you know, to the table.
54:57
And so I got to, you know, I got to do that now.
55:00
It's kind of my first crack. Fast forward two years, Rob
55:03
comes to me. It's like, hey, I want to, I'm,
55:06
I'm thinking about my next product.
55:08
And he goes, I'd like you to take a, a crack at naming it.
55:12
And I was like, OK, and So what is this?
55:14
He's like, well, you know, rock and rye.
55:15
He's like, you know, it's basically an old fashioned.
55:18
You swap out the horehound for bitters and he's like, I want
55:20
to, I'll bring back rock and rye, but I want to modernize it
55:23
as a, as a real rye whiskey, old fashioned, using real whiskey,
55:26
real ingredients. And so I'm like, OK, And I was
55:29
like, you know, I was like, well, what's this brand about?
55:31
He's like, well, sex, drugs and rock and rye.
55:33
And I was like, OK, it's a rock'n'roll brand.
55:35
Got you. And so that turned into doing
55:38
not just the name brand voice, brand essence and that kind of
55:41
stuff, but but really doing formulation.
55:44
And but once again, it all boiled down, back down to my
55:49
values as a bartender. Let's bring the sugar right in
55:52
line. Let's we're not we're going to
55:53
use roll rye whiskey. How are we going to express the
55:56
citrus? And that's the, I think the
55:58
thing I'm proudest about with with slow and low is its citrus
56:01
component. From there, I've brought that
56:05
same kind of value system, especially as it relates to my
56:08
sensory targets. I know exactly how I want it to
56:10
taste, how we want to hit the palette, how I want it to tickle
56:13
the sides, how we went to finish, hit the throat.
56:16
And we fed the opportunity this past year been working on where
56:23
we're set to release 2 new innovation expressions with Slow
56:26
and Low, 1, collaborated with the iconic Italian liqueur
56:30
producer Luxardo, and we're doing a cherry old fashioned,
56:33
Yeah, and in particular single. Fashioned drinker, so I'm
56:37
looking forward to this. There, there.
56:38
So Luxardo is famous for their for their American liqueur and
56:41
but I didn't use that. I used their song Way More Laco,
56:43
which is a deeper, you know, dark cherry, gorgeous product.
56:49
So we've got that and then also collaborated.
56:51
We're doing a Maple old fashioned and collaboration with
56:54
Crown Maple. Had the opportunity to meet
56:55
those guys years ago. Incredible organic Maple syrup
56:59
from upstate New York. That's what I used in my bar
57:01
programs and so built an old fashioned around around that.
57:07
And you know, I there, there's a couple of things there.
57:09
First of all, it's literally the same frame.
57:12
Doing product development is once again values sourcing.
57:16
There's a historical component and then there's there's the the
57:19
iterations. And I think that you don't stop
57:22
when you're developing a drink or whatever that is until it
57:25
hits your targets. That's the most important.
57:27
That's the engineering, the flavor and taste.
57:30
This has been fun. One of the questions that I
57:33
typically ask people is like if you had a chef's PSA out there,
57:36
but if you had, if you had something out there for the
57:38
chefs or for for the people that work at the bar, what would it
57:40
be? The concept of offhand
57:43
excellence and this is something that Sasha this was this was our
57:49
guiding standard at milk and honey.
57:52
And so the concept of offhand excellence is summed up of is
57:57
you don't you don't fake it. There's there's no try.
57:59
There's do a very Yoda ask and you take the time to do
58:03
something right. Are you, you know, bartending
58:05
and this profession, which I also think applies to to to
58:07
cooks is are you it's it's a matter of character.
58:12
Are you going to show up or you're going to do it?
58:13
Are you going to reach for the coldest class in the back of the
58:16
glass roster? Or are you going to take the
58:17
shortcut and grab the one that, you know, that's upfront that
58:19
just got put in there, right? And it's also there's the
58:23
humility. And so the other concept here is
58:26
the idea of the perfect shift. It's probably impossible to have
58:29
the perfect shift, but you're and that means we're literally
58:32
every single thing went right, that it was done to its absolute
58:35
optimum and that you're not going to get cocky, that you're
58:39
going to understand limitation and that every shift is another
58:42
opportunity to try for that, for that perfect shift.
58:45
Where can people find you? And and and?
58:47
Follow along and and stay in touch.
58:50
So you can find me on Instagram. My handle is at cuffs and
58:54
buttons under score ofc. Awesome brother, this is good.
58:59
This is great. Awesome.
59:01
Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode.
59:02
If you want to support the show, if you're watching on YouTube,
59:04
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We'll see you next week. Hit the porno music.
59:33
In the kitchen. No fiction.
59:39
Listen close classes.