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The Next Chapter: Where Our Stories Go From Here · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matt.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jeremy.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the final chapter in season four of the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We are humbled and grateful for your time and choice to come with us through this important discussion.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Our sincere prayer for you and your church is that you would be strengthened and helped to hear the voice of our good shepherd calling you to follow him.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: In this season finale, Jeremy and Matt step back to reflect on the ground covered in season four and look ahead to what's next.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: They share resources for leaders ready to deepen their own work in family systems theory and church renewal, highlight Florist Coaching's mission and upcoming projects, and preview season five.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: The conversation emphasizes that renewal begins with personal differentiation and spiritual rest in Christ and extends outward into healthier congregations and leadership cultures.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the final episode of the Church Renewal Podcast for season four.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are we finally done?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are finally wrapping up season four.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the question is are we done?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely not.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: But we should give them some practical things before we dip out of this season and tell them what's coming next.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, we we have covered a lot.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know what we haven't talked about?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't really talked about flourish coaching at all.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get there, maybe.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't, we haven't really talked about your background.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've just kind of assumed people know.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say this.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad people came along for this.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that the content here has been uh useful to our listeners as they've been walking with us.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Matt, we are at the end though.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what resources would you recommend if someone has gotten to the NT and they're like, hey, you know, I'd like to go deeper.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Where should I start?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: What would the next steps be for me to continue growing in this?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um I'll make a recommendation that I may have uh done sort of indirectly along the way, but I'll do it more directly here.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh again, not anything that we recommend to eat the fruit, spit out the seeds, uh, our mentioning of something doesn't mean that we agree jot and tittle with every single piece of it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: We just think that it's valuable and trust that you can filter.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we are enthusiastic fans of Pete Schizero and his work.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so the redone versions of their uh courses, emotionally healthy spirituality and emotionally healthy relationships, I find incredibly valuable because I think that uh Pete Cazaro's line is that uh you can't be spiritually mature unless you're emotionally mature.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: And most of us did not get that in the families that we grew up in.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Pete uh and Jerry, his wife uh are trying to help you grab a hold of that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: What would it look like for me to be as a Christian leader, uh to be emotionally mature?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I get from where I am to increasing maturity?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're we're fans of of Pete's work, those two courses in particular.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I say a course, it's uh a book, um, a workbook, uh devotional, a video.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's an eight basically it's an eight-week intensive.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I recommend that at least you do it as a pastoral couple.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if not, uh some of you might uh want to, after having done it yourselves, learn how to do it for your church.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's a place to start.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you're looking for something, you know, right off the bat, you can just take down and try and get some of the principles you heard.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Dan Werthman uh this season.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: We interviewed him, and he the two most basic books uh introductions from a Christian uh viewpoint on bone family systems theory is Jack Sha Thomas, if you met my family to understand, and Roberta's Gilbert's book that we'll we'll link to.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the eight concepts of bone theory, something like that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and she's a great introduction as well.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's some ways to sort of to begin to walk down that road uh yourself.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's an expanse of literature in this field.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've described it that uh and before 2014 when I first ran into this, I didn't even know there was a window in my house.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I opened the window and I'm like, holy cow, there's a whole field out there I doesn't even aware of, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and uh and there's quite literally that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so um we'll uh through the show notes of different episodes, we'll have linked to quite a number of different resources.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: But those are some good uh beginning places, I think, uh, to start.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of the things I've tried to do with each episode is anytime we've named a resource, article, book, talk, whatever it is, my goal is to have each of those linked in the episode notes.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I can say right off the bat is go back through, look at the episode notes to any episode, uh, and you'll you should find a plethora, a veritable treasure trove of uh of resources that you can dig into further.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just to remind you in this, um, we do think that it's a that it's helpful and a good thing to use family systems to analyze or diagnose uh a church to look for patterns um of anxiety, of triangulation, of lack of differentiation.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: But remember that Dan Werthman's uh good admonition this season, this is mostly for you.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is mostly so you can do your own work.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is mostly so you can show up as a more emotionally mature individual and bless people as a result of that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Labeling other people, um, defining other people, that's actually the opposite of differentiation.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: We define ourselves, we don't define others.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: So this is something to be careful with, not uh a cudgel to wield.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: It can be helpful to see systemic patterns and to be willing to look at things.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: I have it so unless you talk about getting up on the balcony, right, and looking out of the dance floor and seeing what's there.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's very helpful to get some distance and to see what it is so that you can enter in as a non-anxious presence and lead towards greater health, but not to blame, not to define others, but to lead them to maturity.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we commend these things carefully in the way that you would use it in your leadership in the church.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: The the concept that we've gone over here um a couple of times is the concept of complementarity.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: In this context, what that means is if you change yourself, there's going to be a change in the system in which you're a part because you changed.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you left more room, someone else is going to move to fill in that room.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Once that person moves, someone else is going to move to fill in that room.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: The whole thing's going to shift because you are working to better understand who God has called you to be and to be a better version of that by the power of the Spirit through the work of the gospel, as you strengthen the relationship, the friendship, the sonship with your Heavenly Father.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a there's a twin concept that we have mentioned as well.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we've said anxiety is contagious, but so is differentiation.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anxiety is contagious, so is rest.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the best thing that you can do in resting in Christ is rest in Christ.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: The people around you will see that they will be encouraged by your movement to do the same.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Christ will meet them there.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Man, are there any other resources that you want to throw out here at this juncture?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's maybe one more that I'll mention um that we we did say in the I think in Dan Werthman's interview, but um there is a good for those of you who are just like this still feels really psychological, and can I trust this?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is it biblical?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's some a couple of authors, uh editors of volume out of the out of Australia uh that talk about this intersection of family systems theory and Christian ministry, and we'll have that linked so that you can kind of see that we're not uncritical, we just find that it's helpful.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Volume is very, very helpful for for if you feel some tension.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is mostly descriptive, not prescriptive.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we've tried to do a lot of our prescripting uh in terms of gospel terms because we think that that's actually how we change as the spirit works the gospel, works gospel understanding deeper in us so that we can apply it uh more fully across our lives.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that that we'll definitely link to that volume because I think that it's um it's helpful for clearing up that possible roadblock for people to make use of this.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So Amanda, I've already mentioned, but we haven't talked a lot about Flourish Coaching.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um where you serve as executive director.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is a ministry of Flourish Coaching.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: You decided to do this season four on family systems theory.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you choose to do that?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: How does that flow into um the mission and the direction of uh flourish?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so in my own personal coaching of pastors, this is one of the most common areas that I end up working with them on.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um I tend to think about doing podcasts and writing in areas that come up repeatedly.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: One-offs, you treat with one-offs, but things that are common, I think that you you do podcasts and you write about.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that was the heart behind this.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I have found it so incredibly beneficial myself for my own growth and leadership, and for those that I've done coaching with as pastors, they found it so beneficial.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too that as we work with churches, as we work with with elder wards or sessions, as we call them in the Presbyterian Church, teaching some of this to them, teaching them how to differentiate, how to not be reactive but to rest and to not be anxious but to to lead with assurance.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: These things come up time and again in our work with churches, looking at a pen of sheep and seeing that they're anxious and trying to think carefully about how do we walk towards them.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: These are things that we do all the time with churches, and so we wanted to kind of spread the wealth of what we commonly do uh to a to a bigger audience.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And just for the sake of whoever might not know this, what is a church coach?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and are they getting ready for triathlons?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um, so the name of the ministry is flourish coaching, and a part of what we do is that we coach uh local pastors in churches.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: When we say a coach, what we mean is someone somewhere in the neighborhood of a discipler or a mentor, certainly not necessarily a teacher or an all the time counselor.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not therapy necessarily.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: You end up in elements like that occasionally, depending on the situation that the pastor's in.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: But our coaching is primarily developmental.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: We want to help pastors become more effective.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever is in the way of them being effective, uh, we want to try and help uh remove those barriers.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And this is one of the big areas that ends up as a barrier for pastors, where they're less effective than they would be, than they could be, uh, if they were not anxious and they were differentiated.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: If they recognized when they were being triangled and they uh were walking out with assurance, not anxiety as they lead.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we mean by pastoral coach.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: So if people wanted to find out more about flourish coaching, ask questions.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: How will they do that?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you can go to flourishcoaching.org.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's a contact page there.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's the easiest way to get in contact with us.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that that's probably linked as well.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh info at flourishcoaching.org will also get you to us to ask a question.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, whether you as a pastor or your church needs help, we'd be glad to enter into conversation with you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then let's wrap it up this way.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: What uh what is Flourish doing now?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see it going in two years?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what's the future of this podcast?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Flourish, it's very interesting.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we just had a board meeting uh the same week that we're recording this episode, and uh it was interesting.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: One of our board members who is actually one of the other founders with me, uh, there's three founders of Flourish, Ted, Paul, and Matt.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And Ted has gone on to be the with the Lord and is uh having a way better time than we are.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um Paul is in full-time pastoral ministry, but still serves on the board of Flourish.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, of course I work full-time for Flourish.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: When we started Flourish, we really wanted to provide rest and refreshment and coaching for pastors.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: We still do that, but over time, uh, as we try to fill a need in a space in our own denominational setting where there wasn't a place where established churches could go to get help.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we wanted to provide something where an established church.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of resources for church plants, just not a lot of resources for established churches.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we wanted to be a place where if you were an established church, you could go get help.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why we started Flourish.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Where that's evolved over time as we've learned better uh what people actually want and need and are are willing to pay for, frankly, we've ended up in doing a lot of transitional pastoring, which is that we place transitional pastors in churches that are between long-term pastors and our transitional pastors take a church through an intentional transition process.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we did uh talked about this a lot in our last season.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and that's just where the Lord's ended up directing us, is that that's where we do most all of our work now is in that space.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's good work, it's hard work, it's much needed work, and um, yeah, the Lord's uh bearing fruit through it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you want to know more about that, um you can certainly go to flourishcoaching.org.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can listen to episode to uh seasons one, two, or three or three point five of the Church and Will Podcast.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is a a ton of detail about what Flourish does, how it does it, what the thinking and the process is uh commend that to you.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, Matt, what is your hope, your vision for this podcast?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: If and when we come back in the future.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so uh what we've contemplated for the next season is to talk about uh some of the principles in the first book that I'm writing.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh one of the gaps that I've discovered through our work with Flourish is that in a lot of uh the denominational spaces where we end up working, there isn't a functioning model of how do we discern things together in community.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh by the spirit uh working in and among us.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: So what you see in Acts 15, for example, in the Jerusalem Council, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's a community, it's not an individual making a decision, it's not Jared trying to figure out shouldn't marry Hannah or Matt trying to figure out shouldn't marry Julianne, it's not individual discernment, but it's it's wisdom in community, like in Acts 15.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's certainly by the Spirit.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the when they write the letter in Acts 15 to the churches about what they discerned, what God's wisdom was for them, they said um what they just what they wrote in the letter was it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they certainly thought that there was a work of the spirit among them, um, not revealing new truth to be tacked on to the end of their Bible, but instead, if you think about the book of James, if anyone lacks wisdom, that's where the book starts, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that starts with humility and says, Lord, I don't have wisdom, but I want wisdom, and you're the source of it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: The Father's generous, he's glad to give wisdom if we humble ourselves.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: That wisdom we learn later in the book, over in James three, uh, is labeled the wisdom that comes from above.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's a wisdom that comes from outside of us, it's not from within the hearts of people, but it is from the heart of God and um given by the Spirit working within a group, seeking wisdom.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: James 1, it's a the you we're tempted to read it as if any of you singular, and you lacks wisdom, ask.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's a y'all.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: If any of y'all so it's a it's a communal thing.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So in the in the book of James, yeah, if anybody lacks wisdom, um, they can pray.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: The father gives generously, and when we do that together, we get this what's described later in James, uh, this wisdom that comes from above that has these traits.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Be absolutely beautiful.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a lot of fun to meditate on this and think about it and and and write about it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: The challenge, of course, all you have to do is go to just a couple verses later in James.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Just tick over to what we call James 4-1 and you find out why this is hard.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you have uh arguments and quarrels among you?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't it because you have these passions inside?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so even as we're in community seeking to do discernment together by the spirit, we also have these things warring among us, and that's what makes it hard.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the theme of the book is community spiritual discernment.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's in the writing process right now, and we hope that the next season of the Church Renewal Podcast will take you through its principles and what makes for a good person uh who's in discernment together, what makes discernment difficult together, and how would you actually go about this if you wanted to do it?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I'm writing it is because actually the work that we do with churches, all of it involves this uh in every place.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a church that's uh you were coming to us for a church health assessment, you know what we're trying to do?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to figure out what Jesus would say if he were there.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's community spiritual discernment.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: We will help a church with envisioning you know, what's the Great Commission future for our church?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what is that?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's discernment, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: What Holy Spirit, how would you want to use us for the sake of our community?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Pastor Search, third in the phase of transition, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know what's that?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Does that require discernment?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Pastor Search led by the Spirit.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, two in two ways it requires discernment.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: One is what's the shape of the person that we need here?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's a discerned thing, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then is this person that we're evaluating, are they the one that the Lord has sent to us that fits the profile and is who we need, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's discernment all the way through.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's discernment, which is why I'm writing the book.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh one of our transitional pastors picked up on something that was uh implicit in a lot of what we had done.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Isn't it discernment all the way through?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: He'll be in the credits.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it is, it is, it's it's discernment all the way through.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Jared's seen an early version of this and actually is the one who encouraged me to take it from a 20-page single space paper to a book for which I'm a grateful friend.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's in process, and uh hopefully uh the book will be either in final edit or uh maybe it will be a published by the time we do the season, but hopefully they'll be in some degree of concert together.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Reading your paper, I really do think it's something that will be very beneficial to Christians anywhere that they might find themselves.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's uh you're you're digging through some very, very useful internal grammar.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, friend, thank you for coming with us.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, look forward to speaking with you again at some point.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you have um you know impressions that you want to make of this work, you can go to audible.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's something else.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, you know that we care about you.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know that, we care about you.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're glad you came with us.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've tried to keep this episode short, so you know, about 17 minutes, and um we'll let you know when the next season is gonna come.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, the Lord be with you.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Shatam ends his podcast by saying, Go and be yourself.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, stay near the Father.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: He'll take care of you, and he'll take care of everything that's important to you.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Till next time, take care.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us for season four of the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a privilege to walk with you through these conversations on systems, leadership, and the transforming power of the gospel in the life of the church.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: As you continue your own journey of growth, remember you are already accepted, already loved, already secure in Christ.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Stand in that identity, lead from that assurance, and let his grace shape the way you serve and the way you see.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're grateful for your time, your attention, and your heart to grow alongside us.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ahead to season five, we rest in the promise of Jesus.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Behold, I am making all things new.