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Davida Johnson: AI's Affect on Higher Education · Career Catalyst

• Derek: All Rory: And afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Career Catalyst podcast part of the IT Career Academy media platform. host Rory Devine with me is Derek Lozaro. Hi, Derek. How you doing? We have a great guest today. Our first guest, ⁓ you know, the Career Catalyst, the audience for us is to kind of educate and help inform the emerging workforce and the technology side for all the Derek: Doing well, hi Rory. Rory: graduating students across the country in today's market. I thought there was no better way to set the table stakes for this event than our guest today, Davida Johnson. She is the executive director of the Office of Advanced Research Computing. She is working with computer science students every day. And if no one better to kind of take the temperature and the status quo than ⁓ So ⁓ Davida, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Davida Johnson: Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. Rory: You are our first guest. So again, you are here to set the stage. So you should feel very excited about that. Thank you again for your time. Davida Johnson: Lovely. ⁓ I have no one to compare myself to. Rory: ⁓ So in previous conversations, Derek and I have kind of explained how we got in these chairs and what we do for a living. So if you wanted to kind of tell us, you know, exactly what your title means, what you do, and then, you know, how your career kind of got started in technology. Davida Johnson: Sure, happy to do that. So first start with what I'm doing today, ⁓ my title is and what work I do at UCLA. ⁓ So executive director for the Office of Advanced Research Computing, I oversee a department ⁓ that technology and data science ⁓ and also competency ⁓ for researchers. And we have, ⁓ for instance, expertise around high performance computing, around, again, as I mentioned, data science, statistical consulting. We have a number of people with advanced degrees within our department. so they help to build that competency for researchers who ⁓ may domain experts, but may not have that technology background to be able to produce the type of statistical results that they're looking for. So we partner with them on that sort of thing and on their research grants as well. So that primarily is what we do. And I also am an instructor for a class that is called Engineering 170. And it is a project-based tech boot camp for social impact. That's the name. And the goal of it is to work with students who are interested and using technology to cause social change. so the class, at the end of the class, students have a prototype of a, where they've solved a problem, a societal problem, that they're able to one, use as a portfolio for future jobs, but also to, we take them through the process of identifying the right technology for the right societal need. and also how to build something that actually works. ⁓ mean, it is a prototype, so, but is, takes them through so many ⁓ different of lessons learned ⁓ from management to collaboration, ⁓ to deeper into how ⁓ AI data science can be applied. So ⁓ that's where today. But how I got here was I have a degree from MIT in ⁓ It's a joint degree in humanities and in computer science and engineering. from ⁓ my job was actually in ⁓ academia. worked with physicists ⁓ on solving a problem. And ⁓ there, I wanted to ⁓ get more experience, work And so I actually moved from there to Accenture, where I was a consultant. technology consultant for number of years. there, I moved to ⁓ Brothers, ⁓ I spent ⁓ years in working technology. And ⁓ I oversaw of our technology teams that was delivering home entertainment to ⁓ our And from there, That's where I came to UCLA. That's just where I am now. I was interested in something that really focused on societal impact. so this why I wanted to move to UCLA and I've been there for a number of years now and I'm really happy about my choice there. So that my background. Rory: Thank you. Yeah, you do a wonderful job. Those students are very impressive. For instance, last year, the engineering 170 class, the societal impact problem was how to solve the ⁓ wildfire issue with technology. And I sat in on some of the presentations and was really blown away. So you're doing a great job. ⁓ Davida Johnson: Thank you. Yes. Rory: So that is a very impressive resume. definitely has, everyone gets a little bit of entertainment in LA, right? I didn't see that come in one of those, but that's really great. And we're on the board together to innovate UCLA. Derek's also a member, right, Derek? Davida Johnson: Yeah. Derek: Yeah, yeah, that's been a great experience. Good group. Rory: Yeah, so I've had the pleasure of being able to work with you the last two years running an internship program out of UCLA, but I think one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is to kind of talk about the state of the state with the students that you're working with. Entry level jobs since 2019 are down 50 % in the tech space. So what are you seeing from the students? I get a chance to work with them a little bit, but not nearly the capacity that you do. So is there hope? Davida Johnson: you Rory: their concern, what are you seeing from the students all mass that you work with? Davida Johnson: Yeah, so I do. I have a very unique where I can see ⁓ they are and how things have changed over the last few years. So ⁓ I I first started at UCLA, students were ⁓ into internships like I mean, they were they had internships with ⁓ within their fall the And so ⁓ that has changed dramatically where students are going through to the spring quarter and not finding those internship opportunities. And so there is a little bit of a fear ⁓ the students that they will not land a job and that the work ⁓ they've done in school ⁓ not amounted to what they had hoped. And so I though there is, that we can close the gap there. is a different society with AI and the need to really be ⁓ agile ⁓ terms the technology that you can bring to the table. But I ⁓ think that there's lot of hope because the students are learning fast. I they're able to adapt to this technology really quickly. But the ⁓ gap is... the, you know, how to get them into a company and be ready to work. So ready to work also means things like projects or being able to ⁓ with others and all those other skill sets that they may not have at moment. And so the landscape ⁓ is, know, are themselves and they're even self-organizing. clubs ⁓ being able to just kind self-train. But I think it's important to ⁓ have ⁓ a with industry, a much stronger relationship with the industry ⁓ so that we really bridge that gap between where they are and where the potential for them being ⁓ these organizations. Derek: And David, a couple of follow-up questions on that. Would you say that the change in terms of the availability of the internships and that path, is that really just in the last year or two as AI has really ramped up, or is that something you were starting to see even a few years prior? Davida Johnson: I think COVID had a lot to do with it. So prior to COVID, the internships were much more available. And then COVID happened. And then after that, internships started to become available too. But AI has really changed the game. And ⁓ what I'm seeing and what the students are seeing also ⁓ that they have to have a lot of experience to get in a company as entry level. ⁓ Derek: Mm-hmm. Davida Johnson: but also to the internships seem to be drying up too. So ⁓ not able to get into a company just as an intern ⁓ to start the process of a know, potential. Derek: Yeah, it sounds like there used to be a pipeline of sort of the internship. You gain some experience through that and then you get your first real entry level position. It sounds like that pipeline is where it's kind of maybe a little broken at this point. ⁓ Davida Johnson: Yes, I do. definitely is broken. the of like an apprenticeship type program would be excellent. I think the one thing too is that a lot of companies are now feeling the pressure of delivering. And so they don't really have time or they're not dedicating that time to Derek: Mm. Davida Johnson: these early career students or hires to them in more professional skills. ⁓ And so we're seeing as a gap that has to be filled to ⁓ ensure that the have the resources that they need and the students or the people that they need and the skill sets, but also to recognizing ⁓ that students not may not come in, they're not gonna come in with two, three years of experience. so ⁓ ⁓ to just kind of close that gap somehow. Derek: Mm-hmm. Is there any particular skill set ⁓ of self branding that sort of makes a difference? I if there's sort of fewer of these internship spots available, does having ⁓ coding skills or any particular type of or project work, that sort make a difference? Or is this kind of across the board regardless of where a student is trying to specialize, et cetera. Davida Johnson: it totally makes a difference. It definitely makes a difference. So while ⁓ are some of the internships dry up, we're also seeing the complete opposite, is students with those skills are being hired into ⁓ companies because ⁓ they're for that set and they. ⁓ they have, for example, computer science students who have gone the extra mile to get those AI skills, being swept up immediately into ⁓ NVIDIAs of the world and some of the other ⁓ that are AI specific. so we're, it's a really, we're seeing opposite. I mean, we're seeing ⁓ extremes, I say. ⁓ That's right. Exactly. Derek: Kind of a bimodal spread basically. ⁓ Davida Johnson: Yeah. Rory: Yeah, we had talked off camera about this, but this is why I'm so passionate about the internship program that we run is there's there's a chasm between the existing workforce trying to learn about AI prompt engineering. And they're trying to educate themselves internally when I think a really ⁓ valuable would be having a recent graduate or an intern working side by side with you kind of just observing from like a one on ⁓ have you tried using this to kind of optimize this or make this more efficient? Davida Johnson: I think that is excellent. ⁓ The benefit to that is that they will see the real world experience. They will see what actually happens in the real world. And that is extremely beneficial to a student learning and growing. So absolutely. Rory: Yeah. Yeah, I think I've learned more being on site with some of my clients recently, in the pit with some of the younger graduates who are recently in are the engineers and just kind of hearing how they talk and, know, kind of one of them laughed at me the other day and said, ⁓ you're still using someone your taxes. Like I have Claude do that for me now. And I just. didn't know I was so far behind, but thanks for the tip. I'm going to look into that. ⁓ So that's again, I think that's where the groundswell, if we're really looking for a sea change and upscaling the workforce, the existing workforce, I think that's really one of the best options. So yeah, that's something that we hopefully continue to push. So you did mention kind of the bifurcation earlier, and I just wanted to ask, from the I've read and seen that Davida Johnson: I'm sorry. Rory: Within computer science and engineering, data majors are up 900 % in the last four years and cybersecurity majors or disciplines within cybersecurity and infosec are up 19%. Are you seeing that anecdotally at UCLA or have you seen any other majors pop up? Davida Johnson: Well, definitely data. lot of the disciplines that are not even in computer science. So for example, cognitive science, there many students who have either a data science minor or a computer science ⁓ or technology specialization. ⁓ So ⁓ for seeing that. A ⁓ lot of the students are having dual degrees or for sure minors. ⁓ these areas and ⁓ find ⁓ more common than just one degree. ⁓ that been ⁓ pretty change I've seen ⁓ probably the five, six, seven years. But they're coming ⁓ with a of skills in their degree and what they've chosen. Rory: Are there any AI specific or focused majors that have popped up recently that maybe we haven't heard about or that are new in the last two years? Davida Johnson: no, so not I'm aware of unless it's popped up in the last quarter. there isn't a AI major at UCLA. ⁓ It is ⁓ in computer but there are other ⁓ universities are starting ⁓ do, AI majors. I've seen it in degree programs, ⁓ where there are, and these are very, very technical ⁓ programs have a artificial intelligence, but it's, it's being embedded into the work that they do. And ⁓ university is still ⁓ to figure it, figuring out how does AI play a role in education as well. And, ⁓ know, is it something that is, know, at what level do they learn it? Do they learn it from the deep learning perspective versus ⁓ engineering And all of are, they are all but it is how that translates into them a job and bringing ⁓ that skill set. We really to know more what the industry ⁓ is looking for to be able go back and say, this is what the curriculum ⁓ should be. Rory: Mm. Derek: Evita, you mentioned that your own background is kind of a split between the humanities and more technology and science. I'm curious, as we sort of think more broadly about the AI-enabled future and the world that we're entering, what role do you see for the humanities? And do you think that there is kind of a career path, whether that's governance or other areas where the humanities still has a role or still enriches the other skill sets. Davida Johnson: most definitely, because the ⁓ knowledge is still important. So whether ⁓ it's science, ⁓ or or film and television, the importance of domain knowledge is because that's where... that's still prevalent the world. But don't it's enough. So ⁓ if are the humanities, I think it is absolutely necessary to get a specialization in computer science or data science as you're moving out into... ⁓ Derek: Mm-hmm. Davida Johnson: through articulating ⁓ then moving out into the world ⁓ it's technology driven, it's data driven. And so, the have to be there. It's, it really is not enough to, ⁓ to ⁓ just humanities part. Derek: And are you seeing that ⁓ throughout the student population, that even the sort of humanities-focused students are in fact ⁓ a minor specialization in more of a computer science or AI field? Davida Johnson: Yes, absolutely. So I'm seeing it with professors too. So a set of humanities is the digital humanities. there to be an aspect ⁓ of it data driven ⁓ and solution And so that sure happening. The challenge the university is facing or has faced and they're resolving that in areas the digital humanities is embedding the part or the computer science part those fields ⁓ because you don't people who are humanities may not naturally ⁓ be science oriented. And you have to have ⁓ they're more focused on the domain the technology becomes an enabler for the And so that is how taught more in the humanities that's how they ⁓ are attempting to teach ⁓ humanities majors. ⁓ It's different the fields because it's really about the technology. And so you have some hardcore. ⁓ computer science skills majors actually could from the domain knowledge too. So there's a balance that but for sure the ⁓ majors most need technical skills. ⁓ Derek: Mm-hmm. Rory: Yeah, I think my aha moment was last year with that, where we were at an event together last summer. with a bunch of CIOs from the innovate group and we had the theater group from UCLA present which at the time I was kind of Okay, group of technologists We have some theater group in here and they came up and presented and talked about how they had this fully immersive and integrated version of A play and then about 15 minutes in they started going through their AI architecture workflow on how all of this is possible and I saw all the CIOs writing stuff down and I was like, ⁓ Davida Johnson: Be- Derek: I think these kids are part of discipline and conversation. Rory: Like every, the technology is influencing and these kids are very disciplined in the technology sector and that's where I realized like AI is just kind of a part of every major now regardless. So I thought that was, yeah. Davida Johnson: here. Absolutely. Yeah. Derek: Yeah. David, do you think that, you know, we've heard a lot about vibe coding and some of the tool sets and capabilities that AI enables for less, you know, tech first kind of people or, hardcore computer science people. Are you seeing that with, you know, some of the students that and others that you work with where, you know, people that are not necessarily trained computer scientists are learning how to code or how to use technology more because of AI and vibe coding and things along those lines. Davida Johnson: So I see that they know, they understand the need to integrate that into their degree program. We are seeing, but how they learn AI ⁓ very different, it's broad. ⁓ being a consumer, so I seeing students being consumers of AI. Derek: Mm-hmm. Davida Johnson: and not necessarily builders, except if you're in a STEM field. so I think that the, they understand, ⁓ get it. Like AI, have to have AI on my resume, you know, and whether being a part of AI club or something ⁓ shows ⁓ I am with AI, that may not Derek: Mm-hmm. Davida Johnson: into what an organization or company needs from their skill set. so I think there's a gap there, except the ones like I mentioned who are computer science and they're actually ⁓ learning, want to learn this. It's ingrained in their curriculum. But I I do get concerned though, but ⁓ Derek: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Davida Johnson: by seeing just the consumer side of AI without understanding how to enable what you're doing with AI. So ⁓ what I'm seeing. Just, yeah, ⁓ Derek: Mm-hmm. I've recently explored more of the Microsoft stack myself. ⁓ a few different tiers within the Microsoft world of copilot. There's the consumer grade copilot experience, but then they have something called Copilot Studio, where it's low code, no code ability refine what copilot can do for an organization. Then they have something called Foundry, Rory: you Davida Johnson: Mm-hmm. Derek: which is for computer scientists and folks like that to build tools almost from scratch with some enablement from Microsoft. So do you think that there is a role for maybe that middle tier and building ⁓ and capabilities there or do you really have to be in that ⁓ tier, computer science tier where you're truly building stuff that's novel? I'm curious what you think is the true story there. Davida Johnson: Yeah, so I definitely think there's room for that middle tier. Back to the humanities example, ⁓ you have someone who has an expertise in a domain and they don't have to ⁓ developers or software developers, ⁓ they can use that middle tier to help explain, better or better say visualize or ⁓ do analysis or even build. models because they have the domain knowledge. And so ⁓ able to use that domain knowledge to ⁓ get that enablement through these AI tools, ⁓ a win. But if they're relying too much on the tools and they don't have ⁓ the knowledge that will be able to validate ⁓ their or ⁓ well model is working, Derek: Mm. Davida Johnson: then that's a problem. So there has to be some domain knowledge there when you're using these tools. But for sure, it's to ⁓ time savers. ⁓ are, it doesn't require you to be ⁓ as but you still have to have some foundation ⁓ of knowledge ⁓ a subject to be to be, for that skillset to be valuable to someone. Derek: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Rory: All right, so then I know we're come up on time, so you've been so gracious with it. tell a million dollar question would be, know, students today, what would you recommend for the freshmen, sophomore, juniors who are trying to prepare themselves for the job market? What would be your biggest recommendation or advice to them? Derek: All right, so then. students today. Davida Johnson: would say get a mentor the industry and someone is able ⁓ reflect back you things that you can learn. that is so, I think it be very valuable ⁓ to a ⁓ up coming or ⁓ And it saves them time from learning from their own mistakes. And ⁓ also connects them early. earlier can get a mentor, the better. But it really does help put things in perspective and bridge the gap between ⁓ where are to where they want to be. Rory: That's a great, great answer. I think a through line that you'll see in future podcasts is definitely going to be that mentors really help people's careers take off ⁓ as a catalyst. So if people want to get in touch with you, where can they reach you ⁓ they want to talk about the internship program or want to talk to you about OARC or anything in between? Davida Johnson: ⁓ Yes, I mean they can certainly email me. My email address is on ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ if they were to go to UCLA or Google my name, they certainly email me. I'm happy to talk with anybody about ⁓ our or the internship program, or anybody at UCLA, or how can get active or involved in ⁓ what we're at the university. ⁓ Rory: Amazing. and if you want to follow up on this, you can see this at itcareeracademy.com. You can follow up on our LinkedIn site, Instagram. Derek, final thoughts? Derek: No, this was a great conversation and David, it's really was excellent to have your perspective. mean, you're working with the next generation and the folks that are right there trying to skill up and trying to get into that career pipeline. So great to hear from you and hear your perspectives. Davida Johnson: Thank you. am happy to share. ⁓ Rory: All right. Awesome. Thank you so much, Davida. Bye-bye. Davida Johnson: Thank you. Bye bye. Rory: My wife's being admitted, so I had to wrap that up. I got a text message while we were doing that. She's like, you need to go get my bag right now. I'm like, ⁓ Derek: So I understand the that I got a text message while I'm doing that. And she's like, oh my god. Davida Johnson: Ha You