Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / The Truth about Sex! with Sex Therapist Dr. Chris Donaghue

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The Truth about Sex! with Sex Therapist Dr. Chris Donaghue · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misunderstood, everybody.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. We've talked about some pretty
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: personal things on this podcast, but today we are going
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: to expose even more when we get down and dirty
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and talk about sex. Everybody's doing it, but for some
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: reason there's so much shame in talking about it. Today's
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: guest takes that shame and throws it right out the window.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: We are joined by the acclaimed Dr. Chris Donahue. He
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: has so many titles with the word sex in it,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: it's hard to keep track. He's the doctor of clinical
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: sexology and human sexuality. He's a certified sex therapist and
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: a certified sexologist. What does all of that mean? We
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: get into it. We had a bold conversation about intimacy
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: and sex, those having it, who's not, who should have more.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: We delved deep into the world of dating apps, feminist porn,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: debated the legitimacy of sex addiction, threesomes, and found out
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: what we really all want to know. What makes somebody
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: good in bed? Dr. Donahue doesn't shy away from answering anything.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, he preaches sex positivity. It was a fascinating
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and fun conversation, and I even learned a couple things, too.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I think you might as well. So get ready. Probably
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: grab a glass of wine for this.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Chris Donahue. Chris, welcome to the show. I'm sure everybody
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: is most excited of a lot of my guests to
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: hear from someone like you with all these big credentials
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: behind you with the word sex involved. So that's when
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: people listen up, I think.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Of course. So can you explain to people what a
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  Speaker 1: sexologist is and what really a certified sex therapist is?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a part of psychology, trained in clinical
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: psychology first, and it's a specialization. And the way I
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: kind of break it down is, Sex isn't part of
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  Speaker 2: our culture. It's a part of our psyche. It's probably
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: one of the most important parts of our mental health.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: And it often gets kind of stigmatized or shamed. And
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: a sexologist is someone who's really done the training and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: the work to understand the history of sex, how sex
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: plays a role in culture. And then a sex therapist
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  Speaker 2: is someone who's trained to work with anything sex-based. So
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: people that are... struggling with sexual dysfunction. They want to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: improve their sex lives, sexual esteem, body esteem, some pretty
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: big label that covers anything around sex relationships, gender.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: But you can, you can also be talking to people about,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: you know, just their relationships as well. It doesn't have
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: to be rooted in sex.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Am I correct? Correct. Yeah, yeah. An important part of
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: any sex training and to become a certified sex therapist
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: is getting training in relational and marital therapy. And at
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: this point in the entire world, there's only about 500
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: or 600 of us that are actually certified. The field
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: of sex and relationships have a lot of people making
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: up labels and terms, and there's a lot of interesting
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: people kind of in the field. But a certified sex therapist,
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  Speaker 2: from what you know, definitely has the credentials.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious what happened in your childhood, your adolescence,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: your adulthood that made you want to get into this?
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: It's such a good question because I know my parents,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: when I started getting into it, they were like, of
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: all the things you could do. My dad was a
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: doctor himself, and he was in general medicine. So I
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: never really was interested in sex. My first degree, I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: went to NYU. I was doing nutrition and food science.
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  Speaker 2: I just thought that was an interesting field. I don't
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: know what I thought I was going to do with it.
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  Speaker 2: I was living in New York City, having fun. Slowly
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: started getting more interested in clinical work, and the sex
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  Speaker 2: area was just dynamic, you know, niche market. I fell
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: into it and then slowly started kind of doing some
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: media stuff and I almost got pulled into it more
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: or less.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it seems like people would have so many questions
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: about it that they want to talk to someone about.
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  Speaker 1: And there's so much shame that goes along with that
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  Speaker 1: topic or, you know, people don't know if they're doing
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  Speaker 1: things right. I mean, how the hell would you really know?
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: The only intimacy you have partners you've been experienced with,
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  Speaker 1: you know.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. And anytime I go anywhere, including like a
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: dinner party, inevitably, if someone finds out what I do,
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  Speaker 2: someone will be like, hey, can I ask you a
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  Speaker 2: question really quickly? Right.
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  Speaker 1: You immediately become the most popular person at the party,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure.
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  Speaker 2: Happily and frustratedly so sometimes. But it really also tells
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  Speaker 2: me that it's something we're desperate to keep talking about.
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  Speaker 2: And that's really important to us because it's always creeping
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: in somehow, right? Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm curious, in all the credentials that you have,
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  Speaker 1: what are you finding that people are coming to you
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  Speaker 1: for most? Or is it a gamut of things?
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  Speaker 2: Well, right now, you know, it's always, there's always a
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  Speaker 2: gamut of things, but there's a couple things that will
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  Speaker 2: show up based on what's going on in culture. And
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  Speaker 2: I would say right now, the most important thing is
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  Speaker 2: dating apps. I, my heart hurts for anyone on them
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  Speaker 2: because it's creating a lot of, okay, see, so what's
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  Speaker 2: your experience been thus far? Would you say yay or nay? Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I am a single mom of an 11 year
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  Speaker 1: old and I have been divorced for 10 years. So
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  Speaker 1: I would say the only way I've actually had successful
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  Speaker 1: relationships where I've met a man and dated him for
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  Speaker 1: like years has been through dating apps. I don't meet
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  Speaker 1: people at bars. I'm super busy. I find that like,
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  Speaker 1: you know, also I'm 48. So like, you know, at
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  Speaker 1: a bar, why wouldn't a guy go for the 25
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  Speaker 1: year old who's, you know, all slinked up and, you know,
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  Speaker 1: sexed up. And I feel like I have a lot
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  Speaker 1: of baggage that goes with me. They have to deal
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  Speaker 1: with three dogs, a woman who's middle-aged, you know, a kid,
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  Speaker 1: there's like a lot of shit to it. And I
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  Speaker 1: feel like with dating apps, you could put a lot
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  Speaker 1: of stuff out there and kind of hand it to
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  Speaker 1: them on a platter and be like, this is who
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  Speaker 1: I am. I'm okay with it. And you have to
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: be too, to fit into this pool. And if we're at,
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  Speaker 1: you know, if we meet halfway and you're into this
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  Speaker 1: and this is what I'm serving, then we can start
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  Speaker 1: the conversation. But you know, that's hard in a bar.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also easy that you can sit on
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  Speaker 2: your couch, right, and be dating from your couch in
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  Speaker 2: sweatpants with like a coffee. And that's why I think
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  Speaker 2: dating apps are awesome. I recommend them. It's just they've
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  Speaker 2: led to a lot of psychological trauma because a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people are encountering a lot of really bad experiences
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  Speaker 2: and a lot of really bad people. And if you
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  Speaker 2: said to me, you know, what's the one thing you
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  Speaker 2: wish everyone on dating apps would do? I would say
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  Speaker 2: take it more seriously because there's another human being on
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  Speaker 2: the other end of that that you're communicating with. And
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  Speaker 2: you're either making them feel better about sex and dating
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  Speaker 2: in the world or worse. And, like, let's bring a
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  Speaker 2: little more kindness to the whole process. There's a lot
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  Speaker 2: of harsh behavior.
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  Speaker 1: But it's interesting you say that. So, first of all,
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  Speaker 1: I think a problem that people have on dating apps
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  Speaker 1: is that they represent themselves in a way that is
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  Speaker 1: just not true. So they'll put a picture of themselves
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  Speaker 1: from 10 years ago when they were different weight or
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  Speaker 1: they look different and they didn't have any wrinkles, whatever
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  Speaker 1: it was, they had a different haircut or, you know,
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  Speaker 1: they have filters on, especially women put a lot of
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  Speaker 1: filters on. So they get to a bar restaurant and
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  Speaker 1: it's not who you sold, you know? And I think that,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lot of male friends who
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  Speaker 1: will tell me stories about how they basically just walked out.
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  Speaker 1: They're like, you are not the person that I agreed
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  Speaker 1: to meet. And I think it's, Mean, of course, but
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  Speaker 1: I also am somebody who doesn't misrepresent who I am.
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  Speaker 1: So I think that there's a lot of ways you
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  Speaker 1: can fall into a trap. But also another thing with
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  Speaker 1: dating app that I think is difficult, it's like the
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  Speaker 1: grass is always greener. There's way too many options. And
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: so you can have a great conversation with someone, but
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  Speaker 1: if you're not engaging quickly and moving forward quickly, like
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  Speaker 1: you lose that person because they're interested in someone else.
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  Speaker 1: Or there are people that just like to type and
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  Speaker 1: never leave their house. And that's a bunch of bullshit.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Don't you think? And you nailed a core, 100%.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: You nailed a core theme, which is the clients I
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: work with on dating, because that's what some people will
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: come work with me on, is why am I not
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: meeting anyone? What's going on in my dating life? So
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I will work with them on the pictures they're posting.
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  Speaker 2: What are they putting in their bio, right? And what
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: is that communicating about them to the other people? Because
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: we can't see ourselves that well. So I think it's
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: smart to have a friend look at your bio and
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  Speaker 2: your pictures and say, does that accurately portray who I
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  Speaker 2: am and what I'm looking for? But I tell them
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  Speaker 2: over and over and over, dating isn't about getting someone.
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  Speaker 2: Dating is about being as authentic as possible, hoping that
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  Speaker 2: they are as well, so we can actually see if
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: we're a match. So I say, what should you wear
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: on your first date? The kinds of things you honestly
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: like to wear. Like, come from your best, but please
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: don't sell a dream. And I think people do that.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you've experienced that, where you're like, wait a second,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: the person you were on dates one through five is
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: not actually who you are. So for me, I'm in
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: a relationship, but when I was on the apps, I'm
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: pretty casual. So I'm not going to take a date
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: on a very fancy dinner because... I don't go to
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: fancy dinners. That's not my vibe. So we'll go like,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: we'll go to an easier dinner and maybe like a
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: nighttime walk on the beach. I like quieter and more
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: relaxed things. I'm the kind of guy that like, let's
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: go on a hike and a picnic, right? Wear what
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you like to wear. Go do the kind of activities
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you like to do. Because as you said, misrepresentation is nasty.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: But what about all these sites where people are looking
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: for sex? I mean, they're looking for hookups as opposed
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: to relationships. Do you think that's okay as long as
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: they represent what they want?
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  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Be forthcoming because there
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: are people that are looking for that. I do work
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: with women and men that are newly single. They've been
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: in a committed relationship for decades and they're saying, I
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: just want some casual fun. Maybe I didn't have the
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: sex life historically I'd always wanted. And now I want
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: to go through some of those relational and sexual developmental milestones,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: which are an actual real thing. People that get married
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: really young, I think it's a bad, it's a bad move.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: You're not learning communication and boundaries and all these really
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: important things. So just be forthcoming about it. Save someone
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of time, which is kind of where that
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: compassion piece comes back in again. Just be honest.
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  Speaker 1: dating apps. Where would you suggest is a great place
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  Speaker 1: to meet someone?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: It's a hard one. I mean, the best recommendation I
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: always give people if they don't want to do apps
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: while still recommending doing the apps at the same time
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: is I'll say to them, go to the kinds of
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: places that you enjoy being, and that will give you
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: the best opportunity to meet the kind of people that
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: also enjoy that. For instance, I also don't like bars
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: and nightclubs. I go see a lot of art. I
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: go to comedy shows. I go to concerts. Continue to
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: do that. However, while there, you have to live in
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: the way that I call living singly. So for instance,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: If I'm working with you and you were to say
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: to me, I'm not meeting anyone, I'd say to them, well,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: for instance, when you're at the grocery store, do you
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: have a hat on, sunglasses, and AirPods in? That is
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: not living in the world in a way that allows
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: someone to maybe meet you, right? So I'd say be approachable. Approach. Right.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Be accessible when you're at that concert or at that
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: movie with your friends. Make eye contact with people. Right.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Like be open because people are always looking for signs
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that this is someone I can approach. People that have
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: good boundaries. Right. Because we don't want creepers. But healthy
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: people look for signs of someone who maybe wants to
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: be spoken to. And so I tell people talk, hold conversation,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: say hello to people. You have to be approachable.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, that's really good advice.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: So, okay.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: My next question for you would be about what your
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: thoughts are related to, you know, all these things when
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: people are looking on the news, they're seeing that men
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: are getting in trouble and they're claiming to be sex addicts.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that exists?
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's just an excuse to get them
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: out of some trouble? Why do rehabs exist for these
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: kinds of things? It's not real. Let's get into all that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're bringing up a very controversial, triggering topic. When
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I post about this on my social media, I used
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to have a podcast and radio show. And whenever I
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: would talk about this, it got the most response. So
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: sex addiction in the clinical world is not a legitimate diagnosis.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: The diagnostic manual does not have a term for it.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: You cannot bill insurance for it. And all the major
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: psychological organizations have rejected it as a term. So people
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: that are using that label are making up their own
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: definition for who they're using it for. It's case by case.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And that's not a good thing in the field of psychology.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: So having said that, I think people are misusing it
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: for sure. When I looked at Tiger Woods' situation, right,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: that was someone who was married and was cheating on
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: his wife. He wasn't a sex addict. He was just
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: a jerk that didn't have good ethics. He was a narcissist.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: He got a lot of attention. A lot of women
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: threw themselves at him and he had poor boundaries and
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: not enough care for his wife. That's not a sex
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: addiction issue, right? That's like a personality.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Just being an asshole is what you're saying.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what I said. He's an asshole, not a
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: sex addict. And these treatment centers, I think, I hope
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: they have a good intention of But I think they
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: do a lot of damage because a lot of the
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: sex addiction field really walks people into sex phobia and
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: sexual anorexia and they shame all sexuality.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask how they're actually treating that
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: while you're in there.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So what they essentially want to do is they
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: want to remove all sexuality from your life. So if
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: you go in there saying I'm a sex addict, I'm
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Tiger Woods, they'll say, well, you can't even masturbate. And now,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: so it's like, okay, well, that's interesting, right? Like now
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: we're just really shaming sexuality in their life at all.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: And their criteria for sex addiction often steps far outside
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: of out of control sexuality. So for instance, if you're
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: into some really kinky stuff for a lot of the centers,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: that's a criteria for sex addiction. Hold on a minute.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: That's not true. People are very sexually diverse. We look at,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: we have really great research from porn search engines. Whether
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: you like porn or not, it still tells us what
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: billions of people every day are sexually interested in. And
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: guess what? Nobody is Googling wife, married wife in our
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: bed after showering on Sunday in missionary blowing kisses. No
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: one's Googling that. The world is stinky as hell. But
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: we shame that as sex addiction. I have clients come
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: to my office saying, I'm turned on by this creative,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: diverse thing. So clearly I'm addicted to it. No, you
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: just have to do the work of having confidence in
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: the fact that you have a creative sexuality.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: So if you had a couple coming into your office
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and they're talking to you about how maybe the husband
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: or even the wife is more turned on by porn
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and they're not necessarily turned on by each other, are
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: you telling them to do some role playing like porn?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, but it's more about looking at what is that porn,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: what need is that porn meeting, and how can we
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: find another way? So for instance, sometimes partners don't want
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: sex with each other because the sex is not worth wanting.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: So it's really an issue of improving their sex life.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Other times, they don't have a healthy relationship. And it's
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: healthy that one of them would rather go to porn
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: than their abusive or verbally abusive partner. Yeah. Other times
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: it's because maybe the porn is a more honest expression
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: of what they're turned on by and they're afraid to
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: share with their partner. This is the kind of sex
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I'd really like to be having with you or in general.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: And so it's really about digging deeper.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So what about the, notion that somebody who watches too
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: much porn, they can't have regular sex?
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: You know, again, I want to understand if it's that
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: there's an intimacy issue and that to approach a partner
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: for dating or sex is beyond what they feel like
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: they have the skills for and porn is very easy
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: and lazy. And also we live in a culture, sadly,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: where some people aren't seen as dateable, right? Like there's
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: market value where everyone wants a certain kind of person, right?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And some people are larger bodied, have disabilities, et cetera,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. And for some, porn is the
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: only way that they have access to sexuality. And I'm
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: glad they have that. So it's really about figuring out
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: what needs the porn meeting and is there another healthier
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: way to get that need met. Right.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: You were bringing up some like Tiger Woods and some
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: scandals there we were talking about and going to sex
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: addiction rehabs and how, you know, maybe that works to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: clear their path going forward. Like some people look at
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: it as a way to kind of make themselves repent
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: for what they're doing. And I'm talking about the public
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: seeing that, not necessarily them. But what are your thoughts
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: then on the women involved in that kind of scandal
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and the slut shaming that goes around with that?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: The women that are the victim or the women themselves?
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: The women that are involved in those kind of scandals
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: with those men. Like, you know, what's the name of
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the guy who was Sandra Bullock's husband, I think had
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: an issue or even a Kevin Spacey. Yeah. Or, you know,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and a tiger.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, it's like the.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Women always get blamed, is my point. And the men
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: get to go to sex rehab, which you're saying you
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: don't believe exists. And then their record is kind of clear.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: But the woman is always the mistress, the whore, you know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: she's slutty. She you know, she has this this cloud
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: on her of being, you know, very promiscuous and not
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: worth being a wife, so to speak.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I see that in cheating as well, where sometimes if
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: a woman's being cheated on, she directs the anger at
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: the other woman versus at her husband who created the issue, right?
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: And who should have the most responsibility to her. So
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: that hurts my heart, right? And I think slut-chaining is
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a really horrible thing. Because if you want to talk
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: about slut-chaining very quickly, when we slut-chain someone, all we're
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: saying is, we're talking about ourselves, the person who's using
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the label. We're saying the sex you're having makes me uncomfortable.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And so instead of just acknowledging that, I'm going to
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: pass out.
• 22:13
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• 22:16
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• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Like, let's not put this on the women. Let's put
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: this on him. Grow up. But also, men, hold each
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: other accountable. Like, don't support your friends doing that stuff.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Because we see a lot of that as well, where
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: men know that their friends are doing those things. Step in.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there's people are really stuck
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in these sex roles, right, that women get attached or
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: they could be the cheater. They steal these men away.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: And then these men, either it's cool to have notches
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: on their belt or they can do these things and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: get away with it and just, you know, move on.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: But for the woman, it really stays. So I feel
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: like there's roles that for a very long time have remained.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I'm always really proud of the
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: women that are trying to normalize female sexual empowerment because
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's a key part of reducing some of
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: that slut-shaming. And so, yeah, I think we need more
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: of that.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: So something that's different about you that I realized in
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: researching you is you believe people should have a lot
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: of sex and have it early. Now, I've always heard
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: that if you want to be respected, you should hold
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: out as long as you can. Otherwise, the guy won't
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: see you as wife material. What would you say to
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: all that?
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I would say that sexist and slut-shaming, and I would
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: say that someone who wants to have sex sooner than later,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that's a demonstration. It depends who we're talking about. If
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: we're talking about someone healthy, I'll give both examples. For
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: someone healthy, having sex sooner than later is a demonstration
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: that I'm really serious about commitment, and I want to
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: explore all levels of intimacy. And I can learn more
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: about someone through having sex with them than I can
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: having coffee. Coffee, I can figure out if you like
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Game of Thrones and where you like to vacation. Sex,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I learn about your body esteem, your self-esteem, boundaries, communication skills,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: and whether or not we're compatible. The problem with delaying
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: sex is sometimes the interest is only sex, and we
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: don't know that until we've had sex. And if I'm
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: interested in them afterwards, then I know that there's a
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: deeper connection that we can build on. And I want
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: to know that.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: And so you brought up something that I want to
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: ask about. What is the difference between intimacy, right? And
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: then like one-time sex. Like I think people get, there's
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: this line that people don't know how to walk on,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: which is like, do I have to be in love
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: with someone to have sex? Do I have to have
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: love feelings? Can you be sexual and can that be okay?
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Can you do that in a relationship? Like talk to
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: me about, you know, these issues of, you know, wanting
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: to be in a relationship and have intimacy, but also,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: you know, having a one night stand and having that
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: still be okay, if that's who you are.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the first thing I say, because I work with
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of those individuals where they'll be wanting to
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: be in a committed long-term relationship. That's a beautiful goal.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: And maybe they're in a similar situation as you where
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: they're saying, and I'm not saying you said this, but
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: they could be parallel where they're at a certain phase
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: of their life and they're liking what their life has
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: for them and they're open to relationality, but they're not
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: necessarily desperate for it because they have a lot of
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: beautiful things in their life that make them feel full
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and happy. And I'll say to them, you can seek
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: both at the same time. There are a lot of
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: beautiful examples of what began as sex only leading to
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: the uncovering of the fact that we have a lot
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: more in common. And oh, wow, like I learned more
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: about you. And it can lead to dating, right? So
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: if you want relationship, my stance is be open to
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: everything because you never know what will lead to what?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: And again, I work with a lot of couples where
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: it began as friends with benefits only, or as a
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: one night stand and they slept over and had a
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: great morning and they stuck around and went for brunch.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And next thing they know it's months later and they're
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: still hanging out. And there's really something to this. Don't
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: shame sex as though it can't lead to more. Sex
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: is never just sex. Even in, even, In the dark,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: no names exchanged hookups are an intimate process. It's still
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: a human being that you're connecting with. And I say
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: that because I want people to take that seriously. I
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: want people to take hookups seriously. You are leaving someone
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: better off or worse off. Take that seriously. But again,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: if you want relationship, be open to all of it. Right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: What would you say about couples that are in sexless marriages,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: you know, or even just, you know, people that have
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: been dating for years and that portion has fizzled out?
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Is that natural? I think people have started to believe
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: that that is natural and they should just go with it. And,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: you know, they might still really love the person, but
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: their words to you would be, I'm not in love
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: with them anymore.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: How do they get, can you get out of that?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Can you get back, what I mean is, can you
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: get back into a sexual relationship with them or do
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: you need to get out of the relationship altogether?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a painful moment and it can be a
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: very scary moment, right? If you're very deep in it
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: with someone and you've built a powerful life full of
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: homeownership and children and you have dogs, it's a very
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: scary moment where you're confronted with what does this lack
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: of sex mean? So it's going to mean a lot
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: of different things for a lot of different people. The
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: first thing I always say is don't panic. Because how
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: sex is right now does not mean that's how it
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: will always be. So don't panic. And I want everyone
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to know that expect phases where there's some sexlessness. Because
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: there is a basic biological component to this, which is
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: under times of a lot of stress, because maybe you
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: are dealing with issues at work or you've lost a
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: loved one, you aren't supposed to be sexual. Your erotic
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: system shuts down so you can attend to dealing with
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: those stressors.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Or sometimes it's a self-esteem issue if somebody's gained weight,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: lost weight, whatever.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: So I always say, like, allow some of that. But
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: we can never go back to what was. The sexuality
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: we have in the early stages of a relationship is
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: not an honest or true baseline for that couple. The
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: most arousing thing sexually is newness and novelty. And we
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: can only find that in the beginning of a relationship.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: And I think the issue is that later into a relationship,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: we don't realize that our sexual desire will sometimes have
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to come from a different place. We cannot rely upon
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: those early things. Again, newness, novelty, distance, space. Now that
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: we're close and connected, because when we start dating someone,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: what do we want? I want you to text me
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: every day. I want you to sleep over. I maybe
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: want to live with you. That is all the death
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: of eroticism. So... In wanting all of that, you have
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: to almost prepare for some of that magic sexually to drop,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: and sex desire comes from another place. So what does
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: it come from then? It comes from this. I love you,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: and I want to be close to you now. It's
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: not just horniness anymore. It's I want to have a
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: shared experience. I want deeper intimacy. It's still very pleasant.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I want to be close to you. It feels good
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: and I feel safe after having done that with you.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: But some people can't handle or tolerate that. But often
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: it has to come from a different place.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the really quick other caveat is also check
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: in on whether or not you're having the kind of
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: sex that's worth wanting. Are you withholding? who you really
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: are and what you really want sexually. Cause that's sometimes
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: is the case.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And also don't you sometimes maybe get into a rut
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: and you're always doing the same positions and you think
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: that that's what you stuck with all of a sudden,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: that's what it becomes for weeks, years, whatever it is.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: And that can be really boring.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not sometimes. That's common, actually. Most people
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: do like the one, two, three. We will kiss first,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: then I'll touch her boobs, then I'll go down on
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: her penetration. We tend to have sex in a very
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: patterned top-to-bottom process, and that is extremely boring. And so
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: one of the interventions I give couples is start and
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: stop with different activities. Mix it up. Different times of day.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Different places in the house. Sex requires little tweaks. People
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: think we have to bring in costumes and swing from
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: the chandelier and role play and whip. Nah, you don't
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: need to do that. Small tweaks and changes. Break the patterns.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: How would you suggest for someone that's going through this
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: to get themselves or their partner in the mood then
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: if they've been struggling?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: That's a tough one, right, because there's so many factors
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: that are involved in being in the mood. We have
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: to check in with how do we feel about our
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: own body, right? Like how do we feel about this,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: which is what I'm presenting to someone when I initiate sex.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Wait, and also I'm curious, like with women, I think
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: it's more– emotional like how I'm feeling connected to that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: person like if they didn't take out the trash they're
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: pissing me off I don't have sex with them but
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: the man might be like oh you look so hot
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: if you're wearing little boy shorts out and carrying the
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: trash and I'm like don't fucking touch me so how
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: do you get on right but aren't men visual and
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: women are more emotional.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: It So it's both. I work with some men that
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: are definitely emotional, and I work with some women that
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: are definitely very visual. It's particular to the person, but
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: you nailed a really important key concept, which is Foreplay,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: initiation of sex happens long before you actually approach sex, right?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: So when someone's coming towards you, they are symbolizing every
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: experience you've had with them hours, days, weeks prior. So
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: if you haven't taken out the trash and you've been
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: a jerk. and you've acted like a slob for days
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: and weeks, that's what I'm feeling and seeing coming at me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: So foreplay means be a good person, be a good partner,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: and that will make someone want to receive what's coming
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: at them. So it's about, again, how does your partner
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: perceive you as a person, but also how do you
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: feel about that, what you're bringing to them? You know,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the joke I always give, I use a lot of
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: food examples, is sex is like a potluck. If you
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: show up at the dinner and you're proud of what
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: you brought, you're going to put it in the table,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: you're pointing at it, you want everyone to see it,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: That's how you have to feel about yourself. But if
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: you don't feel good about who you are, you're going
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: to kind of tuck that meal away and don't want
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: to acknowledge it's yours. So it's about both the relationship.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: How's that going? And also, how do you feel about yourself?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: So foreplay is not just sexual. It's about what you
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: bring to the table beforehand. Do you believe that monogamy
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is really possible and realistic? Yes.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I think monogamy has a lot of really beautiful benefits
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: that it offers.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Don't miss the USL Championship Final on CBS, November 21st
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: at noon Eastern. Will the Pittsburgh Riverhounds retain their crown,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: or will a new title winner emerge? Don't miss the
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: conclusion to the 2026 season, Saturday, November 21st at noon Eastern.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: On CBS.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of growth and transformation and learning
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: can happen when it's just you and this other person.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: So for me, it's not so much is it realistic
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: or possible. It's really about what part of you wants monogamy.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Because when a couple enters my office, if they say, oh,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: we're open, we're poly, I say, why? If they come in,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: they say we're monogamous, I say, why? I want to
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: understand what part of you wants that.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: So it's a choice.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: It's a choice. And I want to make sure it's
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: a healthy choice coming from a healthy part. For some couples,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I think they should be monogamous. Other couples, I think
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: that isn't good. Monogamy is for people that have a
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: lot of really good sexual chemistry and compatibility. If you don't,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: you are not built and should be monogamous. Monogamy is
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: also for people that are interested in sex. It's, I believe,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: a little sexually problematic and maybe even emotionally abusive if
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: you say to someone, I want monogamy, so I can
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: only be your sexual partner, but then I'm also not
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: going to be open to sex. So I'm actually going
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: to backdoor you into forced celibacy. No. If you want monogamy,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: you have to be open and interested in sexuality with
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: your partner, and you have to work on that.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And do you feel like this is why a lot
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: of people cheat? Do you believe cheating is kind of
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: inevitable in a lot of circumstances? Or is it like
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: a symptom of what's going on in a relationship?
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I think it's a symptom of what's going on, but
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: can also be a component of an individual. As humans,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: we want two things at the same time. We need
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: and we want both pair bonding and relationship, but we
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: also need autonomy and individuality. And healthy people that can
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: pull off monogamy can manage both, right? And that would
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: look like... I live with my wife and Friday night
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I go out with my boys and I'm still in
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: a relationship with monogamous, but I'm a solo individual out
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: in the world with my friend. Right. But not everyone
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: is going to be able to pull that off. And
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: there are some people for a multitude of reasons that
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: aren't built for monogamy. And I say to them, stop trying.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Acknowledge and own that you need something open, something more poly,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: whatever the verbiage might be. Stop trying to do monogamy.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: It doesn't work for you. You're hurting people. You're hurting yourself.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: And that's really interesting because I think a lot of
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: those people, we shame them, right? That they're not capable
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: of committing, that they're a cheater, that they're a liar.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: And in reality, it might be they're built that way.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: And if they're just upfront about it and that's the
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: choice they're going to make, that they should stay in relationships,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: that that is acceptable. I think when you start lying
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: and hiding who you really are is where you get
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: into trouble and it ruins more than just the intimate
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: relationship you probably have.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent, right? Because a healthy person that also
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: starts to eat away at their own self-esteem because they're
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: not living in their own integrity. And I think I'm
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: thankful that we're in a time where there's more and
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: more people talking about and practicing non-monogamy. I mean, I loved,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: there was an article that came out about a bunch of,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: a couple of celebrities, and they were talking about this
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: concept of living together while apart. We're finally in a
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: phase of life where we're acknowledging there's other ways of
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: running a relationship and essentially what they're doing is And
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: I think Gwyneth Paltrow was one of the people who
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: talked about it and that, again, I don't know pop
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: culture well, but the girl from the Big Bang Theory,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: the blonde girl, Ellie, something or other. And it's this
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: stance of we're together, we're monogamous, but we have separate homes.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: And we sleep over and we spend the night together, but, like,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: cohabitation doesn't work well for everyone. Or there's another movement
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: of couples living in the same home but having separate
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: bedrooms because one of them snores. Other reasons. And we
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: live together, we have a great life, but we don't
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: need to share a bed all the time or a
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: bedroom or a home. So we're starting to honor that
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: people need different things. And just because you fail at
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: or can't pull off the standard style, monogamy, living together,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: same bedroom, doesn't mean there's something wrong with you or
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: your marriage is broken.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. I think that we're still in
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: a stage, though, where people probably don't understand that as much.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: And if they see that someone sleeps in separate bedrooms,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: they assume they're having some sexual issues. Someone's probably cheating
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and they've been kicked out or, you know, whatever it is.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you're bringing up, you know, shows
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: or celebrities. I don't know if you ever watch Sister Wives.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Have you seen this?
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: No, but I'm very familiar with the concept.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: So the man who's married to four wives on the show,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of them have decided over the years to
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: divorce him. They think he's a jerk. He has like
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: 30 kids, whatever it is. So I watched the show
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I don't get it. How is he
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: sleeping with one woman for two nights? Then he goes
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: to the other woman for two nights. How do these
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: women not get jealous? I know people who have had
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: threesomes and it always backfires. You're always worried about if
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: the man's really thinking about the other woman, if he's
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: now doing this behind your back, if he likes sex
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: with them more. I mean, I don't know any circumstance
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: where it does work, but that's just in my little
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: community of stuff. And I've actually never, I will be
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: open about the fact maybe this isn't like sexually exciting,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: but I've never done a threesome because I think that
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: it is too I don't know. I think I rather
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: would have the person for myself and I don't need
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: to get anything else involved and have there be any problems.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: But you just made the most important point, which is
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: you have enough self-awareness to not step in and try
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: and to then maybe ruin your relationship. And I think
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: that's the problem is why are you doing it? And
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: if you're doing it because you're pressured by your partner
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't feel good to you, that's not going
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: to go well. And the people that pull it off
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: are the people that actually want it. We're both partners,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: both desiring it. Great. But I say to couples a
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: thousand things. If your relationship matters to you, you don't
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: just snowplow right in. There's a couple ground rules. First
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: is why are we doing this? Does everyone want to
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: do this? Things like if I'm not feeling comfortable as
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: it's happening, are we both on the same page that
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it stops? Or is the expectation that I'll just exit
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: the room and you'll continue? You also have to talk
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: about it afterwards. did that work for us? Is that
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: something we'd want to do again? Or is that not
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: something we want to do again? Like it requires a
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: lot of communication, but you nailed it. Have self-awareness, do
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: it because you want to. And if you don't say no,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: it will not go well for you.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Now I want to get to a question that I
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: think probably everyone's like, shut up, Rachel, and just ask him,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: how can we have better sex?
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: And I love that the answer is a more simple one.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: The answer isn't bigger, louder, faster, harder, which is what
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: we think in our culture has to be the solution
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: to everything. So the solution is almost a little boring.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: The solution is a thousand things. Number one, get out
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of your patterns and habits. Because as you pointed out earlier,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: we tend to do it the same way. It starts
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: the same way. It ends the same way. It's at
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the same time of day. That sounds boring to me,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: whatever it is we're talking about, right? Like we don't
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: eat the same meal every day. We don't watch the
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: same TV show. I don't go to the gym and
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: do the same exercise. That's boring. Yet we do it
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: with sex and we wonder why it stinks. Also, bring
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: your authentic self. Your monogamous partner, if we're talking about monogamy,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: is the person who should know you sexually. If they
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: don't know all the things that turn you on, you're
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: doing it wrong. That's the person you're supposed to bring
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: that part to. So all the things you're fantasizing about,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: all the porn maybe you're watching, that's a communication of
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: a more authentic part of your sexuality. Are you trying
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to bring that to your partner somehow and engage in that?
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: And for some couples, maybe they're not going to do
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: all those things. Okay. But there's still some things we
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: can learn from that. And one of the tools I'll
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: give couples is it's called the yes, no, maybe. Where
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: only for healthy, secure, confident couples, because it can go
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: really wrong, they'll share all the things that they fantasize
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: about and turn them on. And the partner will say, yes,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: that sounds good to me. No, it doesn't. Or maybe
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: if we make some changes. And that's an intervention on
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: intimacy building and possibly changing sex. Right.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a really interesting answer because most
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: people would think, oh, you know, the woman has to
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: want it in the ass to make it really good
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: sex or whatever. So it's a more simple answer, as
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: you said. I want to ask specifically about... you know, well,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: clearly there are people you have sex with and you
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: know that they just suck and it's terrible. And then
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: there are people that surprise you and they're amazing. And
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: then sometimes with yourself, like I know I'll just share, um,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: people have said, oh, I assume you're really good at Ben.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: And I think about it. I'm like, I gotta be
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: honest with you. There are people that will tell you
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: that I'm, Amazing. There are people that will tell you
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: that I'm like a starfish and I just lay there
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: because I'm so into them and I just want it
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: to be over.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: And it's terrible.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: But like I'm in a relationship with them or whatever
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: it is, you know what I mean? So I think
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: I guess how you feel about yourself in relation to them.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: But also there are some tips and tricks of people
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: who are good in bed. with physical, tangible things that
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: can kind of bring you out. And sometimes people don't
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: know what that is because they haven't had a lot
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: of experience.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Right. I think, which is why I said, which is
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: why I said, don't, don't get married at 22 to
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: your high school or college sweetheart. Right. Like, of course,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: if you meet an amazing person, give it a shot,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: but don't spend your twenties trying to find your soulmate
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: and get married. Go experience a lot of things. Travel.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Try different kinds of food. Date. Have sex. Figure out
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: who you are. Learn something. We believe that there are
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of life experiences to be had and developmental milestones.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: But when I mention there are also sexual relational ones,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we're like, too far, too far. And it's like, why?
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Because this is what can happen, right? Right. Don't try
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: to lock yourself down too quickly. But go further to
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the question. What was the question in that? Because I
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: agree with you. We can be better with some people,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: worse with other people, and there are some people that
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: just are really great at what they do. My answer
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: also within that tends to be kind of a little
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: bit of a surprise switch, which is I think the
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: people I know that are probably really bad at sex
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: are the ones that say something like, I know what
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: all women want. Damn, that's a problem because you don't,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: because everyone's different. And if you enter sex thinking, I
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: know what they all want, you're not actually being in
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: the moment with that person. And good sexual partners know
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: that everyone I'm with, I'm a virgin again. I have
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: to figure out what we like. I have to figure
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: out who they are. I have to figure out what
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: parts of their body they like being engaged. Some people
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: want lights on, eye contact. Some people want lights off.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Some people do want anal. Some people don't. Some people
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: want it fast. Some people want it slower. Some people
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: want more connections. Approach every sex partner anew and say
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: to them, we have to figure out who we are.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you're saying that because you were talking before.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: Don't miss a minute of United Soccer League action. The
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: USL Championship and USL League One are on CBS Sports
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: and ESPN platforms all season long. With additional coverage on
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Sirius XMFC Channel 188 and select matches available in Spanish
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: on 2DNA. It's your time to take part in building
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: what's next. Visit uslchampionship.com or uslleague1. com for complete listings. Find
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: your local club and be part of what's next.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: About how some couples get into the same routine, but
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I think there are people that get into the same
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: routine with their, you know, what they do. So they'll,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: they'll go to every woman using these same moves, thinking
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: they're really good at going down and then they do
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: this and then they do that. And it can backfire
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: when it, you know, cause you're not really connecting with
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that person. What I wanted to ask you though, is,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's sort of known that
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: first time sex can really suck. And is it because
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: you're stuck in your head? Like, what do they like?
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't really know this person that well.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: What is it that they like? How do I look
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: right now? How does, you know, what do I smell?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Like whatever people are dealing with, right? And they don't
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: know the person. So how do you think it's okay
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: to be in your head? Do you think people should
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: get out of their head and just try to feel good?
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Should they be impressing the other person and trying to
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: make them feel good? Like where should they be in
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: their mind?
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're a culture of reflected back self-worth and self-esteem.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: So we enter sex the same way we often enter dating.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: My goal is for them to like me. And that's
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: the worst way, as I said earlier, to enter dating, right?
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: So a parallel example, as I said, enter dating wearing
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: the things you like to wear, going to the kind
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: of restaurants you go to as your full authentic self,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: hoping they do that as well so we can really
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: see if we're compatible. And sometimes a perfect first date
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: is realizing we aren't because we were both on it.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Do the same thing with sex. If you approach sex thinking,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I'm going to mind read and try to guess what
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: this person wants, what they like, you're already doing it wrong.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: You should approach sex thinking, and this is where people
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: get shocked because it's a flip on what they'd expect.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Approach sex thinking, what turns me on imagining doing to
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: that person? And be more self-guided while also acknowledging that
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: there's another person they're receiving in and you are assessing
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: if they're enjoying it, if they feel safe, if they
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: feel comfortable checking in with them. That is erotic, saying,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: does that feel good to you? Is that hot? Is
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: that turning you on, right? But don't approach it thinking,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: I'm here to make them happy. Don't approach it thinking
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: my self-worth is tied to this. Approach it thinking we're
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: just here to have fun, and that's going to best
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: come from me thinking about my pleasure.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Right. Okay, let's talk about sexuality for a second. You've
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: been very open with the fact that you are sex fluid.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Is that what you call it, by the way?
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Labels get wonky and clunky. I've had sex with
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: all genders. I'm sexually fluid, open.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Now, isn't that... Meaning, doesn't that mean bisexual? Doesn't that
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: mean pansexual? I'm confused by, just explain.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So the labels, again, they get really clunky. They're
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: important for some people because it makes them feel real
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: and they can find community. But essentially, traditionally speaking, bisexual
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: means I like men and women. Pansexual really came about
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: to recognize that there are people that are like gender
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: non-binary and gender fluid. And there's people that aren't quite
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: male or female in their expression. And so pan is
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: to say, I like them too.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Right. So the only reason I ask you, cause I
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: could care less what you, you know, choose who you
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: choose to be with, but I, I want to know
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: because you've been with both sexes. And so I want
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to know specifically, is there something that, you know, when
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: you are with a man that you would do differently
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: than when you're with a woman, what do you think?
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: So like, I'm a woman, I like to be with
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: a man. I'm not into women. Why don't you tell
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: for women first, um, if there's some tips or tricks
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: of what you can do with your man that men
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: really like, and then the opposite to say what you
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: think women.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: I've never been asked that question like that. That's an
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: interesting question. Before I answer, just always want to point
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: out that everyone's going to be different, right? So don't
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: ever enter it thinking there's this one thing that all
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: women like, because it's a very diverse crowd and we're
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: talking about women, right? There's a wealth of different individuals.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And I'm a big fan of, like I said, us
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: approaching it from what's going to turn us on, not
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: as a self-centered act, but as a way to be
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: guided by pleasure and not being guided by performance, because
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: that never feels good to the partner. They feel like
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: they're having sex done to them, not with them, while
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: always checking in on them, right? But having said that,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: men are socialized to tend to be a little more transactional,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: and men tend to be a little more obsessed with
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: sex and penetration and orgasm, where women tend to be
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: more experiential and emotional, which is why I have a
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: lot of my heterosexual men that are patients of mine
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: watching feminist porn. Porn that is created by and centered
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: around women's pleasure, which includes more foreplay, more aftercare, more affection,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: as a way for them to have a wider breadth
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: of skills, but also to be able to be more intimate.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Because standard heterosexual porn is centered around a man's pleasure.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Get it in, get it done, and as long as
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I orgasmed, we're good. Where feminist-based porn is, again, more affectionate. post-aftercare,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: but also is centered on the relational connection. And this
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: hurts my heart to have to say, it also involves
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the woman's orgasm mattering. Because we know from research that
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: when women masturbate, they orgasm 75% to 90% of the time.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: When women have sex with another woman, it's about that
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: as well. But guess, ready for this zinger? When women
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: have sex with men, it drops down to about 14%
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: or less of the time they orgasm.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Is that because men don't really know what they're doing?
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: And don't care. It's bull. And so we need to
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: put a little more emphasis on the fact that, yo, buddy,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: you're not the only one in the bed. And everyone,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: their pleasure matters. So yeah, you got to learn how
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: to hang in there and stick around and prioritize someone
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: else's pleasure too. Right.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to talking about couples therapy for one second.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Is there one thing that you look for in a
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: couple that you are saying, yeah, you know what? We
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: can make this or you guys can make this work
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: because I see X, Y, Z in you guys and
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: we can get you to a new place of where
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: you can find some intimacy again. Or can you look
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: at a couple and say, oh God, you'd be better off,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: you know, in different relationships, going your separate ways. Like
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: what are you looking for?
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that question because that's a brilliant question.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: It's a smart question. It's probably one of the most
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: important questions. And I don't want couples to panic in
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: my answer, but here's the answer. We have really robust
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: research that helps us understand what are the qualities that
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: exist for couples that have long-term sustainability, longevity, and happiness.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: And there's pretty much one thing that they have. Couples
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: that are going to make it at their core, even
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: while fighting and going through a tough time, they still
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: have what we call friendship. They still like each other.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: The couples that won't make it and are destined with
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: almost an 85 plus percent accuracy rate of research are
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: the ones that don't like each other, don't have friendship.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: And the word we use is contempt. If a couple
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: enters my office and they have contempt for each other
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: and you can see that where they do not like
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: each other, we're probably not going to get any work
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: done and they should probably separate.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: That is such a good point. I mean, there's a
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: different way that I interact with someone, even if I
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: know the relationship is ending, if I have some respect
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: for them, if I really, you know, like them and don't,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: and I'm very cautious about hurting them, really. I mean,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: you know, and then there are people that you don't
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: give a shit what you say to them because you're
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: just like, you disgust me, you're annoying, everything about you
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I'm repulsed by. But when you have this little, little
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: thread left of respect for the person, I think it
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: does change things. And something you made me think of too,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: like what's really important to me is I really crave
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: a witness to my life. To me, that's super important.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: I want someone who knows me. And when we get
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: to a stage way later in our relationship where things
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: might be going wrong, I believe that the thing that
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: will hold us together is that we have this, you know,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: these bonds rooted in experience together and things we've been
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: through together. And I'm always hoping that that will bring
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: us back to a place. of intimacy. Now, I don't
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: have anyone in my life that I know this personally from,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: but I'm always hoping I'll find that.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: That is it. Thank you for that exact soundbite. That
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: is what relationality should be about. I want a companion
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: on my journey. I want someone to witness my life.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I want someone to be next to me through it.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: But we don't date from that perspective. We date usually
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: from our ego, which is he needs to be a
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: certain height, He needs to have a certain structure in
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: his life. And I say to clients, that's your ego.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: You don't need him to be a certain height, actually.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: His height has nothing to do with what kind of
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: witness or partner he'll be in your life. His height
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: has nothing to do with how he'll be with you
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: if you lose a loved one and the support he'll offer.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: His height has nothing to do with what he'll be
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: like as a partner through tough times in your life, financially, health,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: and otherwise. You want a witness. Focus on that. Is
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: this person healthy? someone who makes my life better? Is
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: this someone who can do that? But we don't look
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: at it in those ways. We look at it from
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: our ego generally.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: But what about people that are getting into fights with
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: their partner because they are no longer motivated, because they
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: don't make a good enough salary, whatever it is? Because
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: those things can really affect sex. They can really affect
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: a relationship. How do you separate it? Or do you
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: think they're really intertwined?
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I think they're intertwined. It's this really difficult balance of
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: these two pieces. We don't enter someone's life as their
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: partner because we want them to nitpick us and tell
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: us what's wrong with us and ask us to change.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: No one says that's why I'm going online today, right?
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: And yet, I want people to be able to make
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: requests on their partner. And so let me answer that
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: by making two therapy points and tips. Number one, make requests,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: not criticisms. The way you approach that topic matters because
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: you have to remember the goal is the relationship, not
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: the change you're seeking, first and foremost. Always focus on
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: how is this theme or topic or argument impacting our relationship.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: So make a request. Hey, honey, it would mean a
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: lot to me if you could please start taking the
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: trash out. That's going to do more relationally and motivationally
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: than to say you're a jerk and a slob and
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: you never take the trash out. That is toxic and
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: that motivates nobody. So that's the first point. The second
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: point is, and this is very clunky and confusing sometimes,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: your job as a partner is to accept your partner
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: as they are. So when you're dating, you're assessing, is
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: this what I want? It's what do they call it
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: in furniture? It's as is. No changes are coming. This
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: is as is. It's a floor model. You're getting that
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: as that. So if that's not the color fabric.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Damages at all.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Damages and all. Then please don't purchase that couch, right?
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: So while I said that, that your job is to
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: what we call accept and allow, not control, not judge.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: You still are allowed to make requests. And a good
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: partner will be noting those requests. So when I'm in
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: a relationship with someone that I love, like I am now,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: I expect them to accept me as I am. However,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: because I'm a good partner and I know that everything
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I'm doing and how I am impacts them and their
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: life and their mental health, any request they make, I'm
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: jotting it down. I want to give them that. I
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: love them. So it's both. Accept your partner as they are. Problem,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever you said, stains and defects at all,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: but still make requests lovingly. And as a good partner,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: hear those requests and write them down and freaking work them. Right.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: I love that. OK, we talked before about having experience
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: in sex. What about people that have been with a
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: longtime partner and they don't feel as experienced in sex
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: and they want to learn about how to have better sex?
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Where would you suggest they go look at porn? Would
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: you suggest they read a book? Like how how do
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: they get better if they're only working with one person?
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the first answer is it's going to
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: be tough, right? Because you only have access to this
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: one partner, and that's a decision you made, and we
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: have to work within the limits of that. There's a
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: lot we can do. Number one, I would say watch
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: some porn, but I'm very thoughtful about the kind of
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: porn that I support my patients in watching. And I
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: have them watch, as I said before, feminist porn. I
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: don't want them watching the standard porn, which is body shapes, sizes,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: activities that aren't standard for us. I want them to
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: watch porn that has bodies that looks like theirs. I
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: want women and men to hear that takeaway. Our sexual
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: and body theme is impacted by everything we are surrounding
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: ourselves with. Social media, the movies, conversations our friends are having.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: So watch porn that looks like you. And watch porn
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: that is feminist, where there is affection. There is aftercare.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: There is concern for everyone's orgasm. It's slower. It's more relational.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Watch that. And also read books like mine. I wrote
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Sex Outside the Lines and Rebel Love as a quick,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: easy way for people to get a few tidbits as
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: to how to be a better person. Having better sex
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: is essentially a relational thing and it is about being
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: a better person. But without getting into that, yes, there
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: are great resources in books and healthy porn. And that's
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: all you're really going to have access to because you're
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: monogamous and this is a long-term partner. Right.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think that relationships should be easy if you're
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: with the right person?
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: No, no. I'm worried about couples that never fight. I'm
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: worried about couples that have no conflict. Healthy relationships aren't
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: about the absence of conflict. It's about the way you
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: manage that conflict. Healthy couples have a lot of it.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: They just are very loving and soft about it. They
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: repair quickly. They manage it better. If a couple never fights,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering, who's people-pleasing? Who's selling themselves out? Why is
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: it so fragile that you can't have any criticism or conflict, right?
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: And so I had an amazing therapy session many years
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: ago where a client said, oh, my God, Dr.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Chris.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're an educator. You travel the world lecturing.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: You have books. You must be the perfect partner. And
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: I said, well, no, I'm a human first. But I said,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I want for you what I hold myself accountable to.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I deal with things better. I catch them sooner. And
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: I repair far superior. That's all I expect of myself.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: So allow conflict. It's healthy. You're two separate people. Just
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: be loving in the way you discuss it and work
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: through it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you had a show before, Loveline, right,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: where you kind of took the next step after Dr.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Drew and took your experience and really were helping people
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: who were writing in, calling in, whatever it was. Many
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: years ago, I was a guest host on Loveline with Dr. Drew,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: and it was amazing. A very interesting experience for me.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if you know this about me.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: I was on celebrity rehab with Dr. Drew and my
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: addiction was love addiction because they kind of didn't have
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: one for me and I'm not a drug user. So
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: and I thought that was really dumb. And I was like,
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: this is stupid. I'm not going to go on there
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: while somebody else is. is withdrawing from like heroin addiction
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: and say, Oh, I'm here for love addiction. It's killing me.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: But what I did find is that I really, you know,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: have some issues with, related to how I interact in
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: my relationships. And I do mistake or I did mistake,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: you know, intensity for love. I had a bad picker.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: I would pick the wrong people for whatever reason. I
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: placed my value on whether or not some, I was
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: loved or someone loved me by who the person was.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: They had to be powerful. Everyone had to want them.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: And if they want me, then I must be worthy. Right.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: And so I did get a lot out of being there. Um,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: but you know, I, I feel now I'm losing my
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: train of thought because I just went down a whole path,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: but I know you don't believe that love addiction is,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: is like a real thing, but I, you know, the
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: thing with love line. Oh, okay. That's what I was saying.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Love line was very interesting because it was more about
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: sex issues. Right. So I remember a guy called in
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: and said he was addicted to having sex with the wall.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: He had made a hole in the wall and put
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: peanut butter on the side and And was having sex
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: with him.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Classic love line.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: And he couldn't get intimate with his girlfriend because she
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: wasn't slathered in peanut butter and didn't feel like a
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: wall and didn't talk back or whatever. And, you know,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Drew's giving his clinical version of why he had trauma
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: in his past. And meanwhile, I'm like, stop. Doesn't the
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: wall hurt?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how this is.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: You're getting to the nuts and bolts of it. How
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: do you even do that?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just crazy for me. I couldn't understand
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: any of it. But did you have an enjoyable experience being.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: On that show? That's the question in all of that.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I love that that's the question. How did you do that?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: I was really complimented that that was an opportunity I
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: got to have, right? Because before, the true story is
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: when Dr. Drew stopped doing Loveline, me and Amber Rose
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: were doing it as a podcast. And then a radio station, K-Rock,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: asked me to do it as a radio show. And
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I loved it. And I was so complimented because kind
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: of like what you're doing with your show, it's just
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: great to have an opportunity to have an impact and
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: to have a legacy of changing people, helping information get
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: out there. I loved it. It was awesome. I brought
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: a different spin for sure. I'm far more sex positive.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: I look at things very differently, but that's natural, right?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: I'm in a different generation and I have a different
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: background than his. I loved it. And my goal with
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: people like him was to try to normalize all the diverse,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: creative ways that we are sexual. And I would have
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: said to him, you're not addicted. It's just that turns
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: you on a lot. And so that's what you're most
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: drawn to. We are all most drawn towards that, which
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: is most arousing to us.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what I noticed from being on that and
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: also from going to love addiction meetings, which were immersed
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: in sex addiction meetings, I found that that came with
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of shame and a lot of people would
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: associate that with trauma and things they went through in
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: their past. Whereas it sounds like with you, you don't
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: put shame on that. You're like, okay, well, that's cool
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: if that's what you like to do, but maybe let's
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: figure out how to translate that into a relationship with
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: a woman or a man.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Or whatever it is.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: 100%.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: Because shame is a trauma. And shame is not a healing,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: motivating thing. So I don't shame anyone because I know
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: that that's walking them backwards and maybe traumatizing them. And
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: my job is to remove trauma. So I'm not going
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: to create trauma. And love addiction, sex addiction, I think,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: missed the mark because of what you just said. They
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: create shame. They can create sexual anorexia. And they're really
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: not looking at the core issue, which is how can
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: you translate some of that to sex with a partner?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: How can you find ways to have sex with a partner?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: How can you normalize that we like creative, diverse things?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: We can eroticize anything, right? We can turn down by
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: anything and everything. That doesn't mean that something traumatic happened.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: And that's a very sex negative idea that if you're
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: turned on by something creative or diverse, it must be
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: a trauma. No, it's not. Positive things can come from
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: a trauma. Anything we do or we like is the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: result of every experience we've had. You can never take
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: one thing and link it back to one event. Everything
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: that's happened since that trauma has impacted that. So my
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: work is about normalizing and healing in a different way.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: Right. Chris, what would you say is the most misunderstood
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: thing about sex and sexuality?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: That diversity and creative sexuality is inherently a problem.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. All right. So where can people find you? Tell
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: us about your books one more time, your podcast, anything
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: you're doing so people can reach out to you. I'm
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: sure people have more questions and would love to get
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: your ear.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So my books are sex outside the lines and
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: rebel love. And my Instagram is at Dr. Donahue. And
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: those are probably the best resources to find my work.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: Okay. And do you read your DMs?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: I do. I do. I try to engage as best
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: as possible.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Awesome. All right. So anyone listening, definitely hit him on
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: DM if you have some more questions or things you
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: want to know about or have a conversation with him on.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate your time.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: It's been such a pleasure and very knowledgeable stuff that
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: you have. And I will go forward in the world
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: with your information and hopefully be a better partner to someone.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
• 1:04:39
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• 1:04:42
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• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
• 1:05:05
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