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Ryan Hawk: Meeting the Moment as a Bold Leader · The Bold Lounge

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the lead and embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they used to make things happen.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be finished.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in, get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the bold lounge.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Today I have Ryan Hawk.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: He is the podcast host for The Learning Leader, which has been around for eight years, over 500 episodes.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely someone you want to listen to in their podcast.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's also the author of Welcome to Management and the Pursuit of Excellence.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Ryan.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for having me, Lee.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's good to be with you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to jump right in and get bold.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the the question that I asked to start off each podcast is what is your definition of bold?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it look like to Ryan Hawk to be bold?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think having the courage to stand up for what you believe in, willing the willingness to be both thoughtful and then intentional with your actions.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think of being bold as someone who has built confidence by providing evidence to themselves that they can do hard things and then leaning on that to make the next bold decision and to continue on.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: When's the first time you remember being bold based on your definition?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: I try to do that every day, but the first time I was 14 years old.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I was a starting quarterback for our varsity team at Centerville High School as a freshman, and in between my freshman and sophomore year, my head coach Bob Gregg and offensive coordinator Ron Aldery came to me, sat me down, and said, You need to start using your voice.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: You need to start showing your confidence and leading more than just with your actions as the quarterback of the team, regardless of how old or young you are.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Find your voice.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: They want to follow you, give them somebody to follow.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not enough anymore just to execute the offense and run the plays.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now you have to be the person in control on the field for all of your teammates.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that was a seminal moment for me when they told me that what you're doing is great, but it's not enough.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the case for a lot of leaders, is as you kind of grow into that role, you have to keep doing more and keep doing more and keep doing more.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why being a leader is not for everyone, and it's not always fun, but it is, I think, an awesome responsibility that I personally love.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of gets at one of the things in your book, which is compliance versus commitment, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone knew the plays on the team, everyone knew what they needed to do to execute.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Here's my role, here's your role, but it really was the emotional commitment to you as the leader, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: In a way as the quarterback.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a leader, the analogy would be you're the quarterback of your team.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then as you set out, like, do you think people set out to be leaders?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think it's something that's inside them that's driving them that pushes them?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I remember uh not high school, but second grade.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I played soccer.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is before you had to have girls and boys' sports, so that's how old I am.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, so I played on a boys' league, but I didn't realize I was supposed to do anything other than different than play really hard.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being told, you know, you really need to be careful.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: You need to listen to your mom and be more careful on the field.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was getting jacked up and laid out.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it, you know, and uh I didn't know any different.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, I felt like I guess I was leading on the field, and you know, there were maybe four girls in the entire league.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that just for me was a moment I remember about like kind of being bold and stepping out and doing something different, but really not realizing it was even bold, right?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my going back to my question is like, do people choose to be leaders or grow into leadership, or what is your thought about is it nature or nurture in the sense of leadership?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably a mix of both.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the the key word that you did say there, though, that I think has to be a part of everyone who is a leader is that it's a choice.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So regardless of what you're born with or how you're wired, you still have to consciously make that choice every day to lead.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's one of one of the few things all leaders have in common is that they have made the choice to step up to say, like, I want this responsibility, I want to be held responsible for what happens with my team or for what happens with this particular project.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I I want that, I'll raise my hand for that, and I'll raise my hand for that every single day.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that's the key differentiator is that in order, I think, to be an effective leader, you have to consciously make that choice on a regular basis.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I think it can be imperfect.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in the sense of being a leader is not about being perfect, like it's about trying and probably failing, maybe even more than succeed every now and then.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the things that I always try to support in my teams was like permission to like try and fail and try and fail and learn.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously not just fail, fail, fail, but we're gonna learn, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think in that process, like one of the things in your framework is lead yourself.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as you think about leading yourself, one of the things you have to realize too is that it's not always going to maybe go as planned.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when you think about leading yourself too forward in with your team and using the framework, what are the other things that people need to understand about what it takes to lead yourself?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think this might be something that, like you said, people get the technical aspects.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have the books, they have However Business Review, they go to all the right conferences, they have the right network, they have gazillion LinkedIn followers or whatever they're using as their measure of success.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're not leading themselves first, I feel like they probably can never be as successful as they potentially could.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it starts with you.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have yet to find, and I've interviewed 520 plus, and I've played for a number of amazing people and had teachers, mentors, coaches, whatever.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I have yet to find someone who's who effectively leads others without first effectively leading themselves.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: They have their own, I think, a great foundation, most high character, a set of core values, critical behaviors that are aligned with those core values.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: They live them out each day.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: They're thoughtful and intentional, they're reflective.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: They are learning leaders.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I called my podcast that, meaning they're constantly working on bettering themselves, regardless of what they've accomplished or the praise that others shower on them or criticism.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: They know that each day they're waking up with the intention to be a little bit better, to be a little bit wiser when they go to sleep than they were when they woke up that day.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this ability to incrementally get better, not a lot, just a little bit each day, that is powerful.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: It compounds over time.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Just like compound interest with your money, you can compound yourself by consistently and constantly working on becoming better.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are you doing?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: What do you have in place to ensure you go to bed a little bit wiser than when you woke up?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I realize I probably wasn't intentional enough about this years ago, and I was talking to so many people on podcast that I got to put some sort of system in place.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so a quick four-part thing that I think about when it comes to leading myself and becoming a learning machine, as Charlie Munger once famously said, is what am I doing each day to ensure I'm I'm going to bed wiser than when I woke up?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'll so the four parts, I'll try to go through it quickly.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: First, I need to fuel my intake engine.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be speaking with people who are far wiser than me.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be reading books, I need to be listening to podcasts, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Fuel the intake engine, indulge that curiosity.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Second, I can't just be a learner, I need to be a doer, I need to be somebody who is regularly experimenting with what I learned.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not just about having the conversations and taking the notes and reading the books.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: I then need to take that and put it into play.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Take action, experiment, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Modulate, think about, figure out what I need to do in order to take that learning and put in action.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Third, I need to take a step back.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: I need to reflect.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: I need to think.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: I need to say, what worked of that experiment, what didn't, what should I keep doing?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: What should I stop doing?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's the third step.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then the fourth step, and I found to really cement my learning, I need to teach it to somebody else.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: So part of the reason why I get up on stage and give speeches and why I write books and why I meet with people one-on-one is to is for that fourth part, is to really cement what I've gathered, what I've learned to better myself.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And by teaching others, whether in the form of writing a book or standing on a stage in front of a lot of people, I have to do a lot of work to prepare for those moments.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And through the course of that preparation is where a lot of that learning really sinks in.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I can internalize it and I don't really even have to think about it, just kind of subconsciously comes out when I'm writing or speaking.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so to me, if I spend each day that I fuel my intake engine, that I run experiments, that I reflect on what I've learned based on those experiments, and then I teach to somebody else, that's a good day.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: That that means I've probably done a good job.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm probably going to bed wiser than when I woke up.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's how I try to kind of test myself am I leading myself first before I can lead anybody else?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one good prompt for me.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I talk about a lot is the combination of mindset, strategy, and wellness, meaning taking care of yourself, your self-care, your health and wellness, your mental health.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Strategy, that for me is kind of the lifeblood of a leader, is like, how do I learn?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do I apply?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do I teach others?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of using your words there.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other side is the mindset and kind of living in the growth mindset world more than the fixed mindset.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when when I think of a leader, it's kind of like that ven of those three areas.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of what you just talked about kind of connects with that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about mindset of a learning leader, what is unique about them versus a non-learning leader?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is there such a thing?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I've I've worked, thankfully not for a lot of them, but I've worked for a few bosses who were not learning leaders.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Those bosses, I'd say some of the similarities among them are they've got it all figured out, they've got all the answers, they don't read books, they don't need to meet with mentors, they've already learned everything, right?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: They know they already know it all.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: They've got it, they've got everything.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Versus so a ver so the the know it all types, which unfortunately if you've been around corporate America, you've probably worked for one or two, or hopefully not too many, yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Versus the learn it all managers or leaders who, again, regardless of what they've accomplished, that their really only goal is a process-oriented goal, and that is to be better the next day than they were today, is to be better, like I said, this evening than you were this morning.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: It it's a mindset so much so that you don't even really have to think of it anymore.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the way you are.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's your it becomes your default setting.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the place where we want to get.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's what a learning leader is all about.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is it doesn't matter what you accomplish, it doesn't matter what you do as far as your mindset.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about no matter what happens, I'm surrendering that outcome and I'm focused on the process of working to get better and better each day.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And by doing that, the results, it's funny how it works, the results you start ending up in your favor, whether that's winning games or that's the amazing opportunities that are presented to you, that are that are that are business inquiries, whatever it may be, I've found over the past eight years of doing this show that when I consciously work hard at that, these cool opportunities seem to arise that now has become my life's work, my business.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's really, I think, what I'd I would say the difference between a learning leader and a non-learning leader would be.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think in the sense of we probably experienced them along our career in some form or fashion.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly my listeners, as we've talked about, a lot of them are making pivots right now or transitioning, some of them chosen pivots, some of them not so much chosen.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the world we're in now, I think one of the things that gets talked a lot about is personal branding and branding yourself.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what I see sometimes is like people not being real in their branding.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think one of the things to be a leader is you do have to be vulnerable and you do have to show your imperfections and you have to be able to know that everything that you're showing others, I mean, they're reflecting it back to you.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you always have this perfectionist or we're you're always doing well, or everything's always rainbows and butterflies, like it's hard for people to actually get to know you.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think of a learning leader, what do you think one of the key things that you try to emulate or try to show when it comes to vulnerability, how important is that?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and showing the real person when you're thinking about your brand or who you are?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the the good thing about having a podcast, which you know, is that it's really hard to fake this if you're gonna do it for a really long time.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think you in this parasocial relationship of listeners and the podcast host, I think when I meet people who have listened for years, it is obvious that they genuinely know me.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: They really do.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't know them as well.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: I like I I I love getting to know them, but they have a genuine sense of who I am because they've listened for a long time.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, the old adage is it it it plays here, which is the benefits of not lying is that you don't have to ever remember anything.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: You just say what happened, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you lie, you gotta remember what the lie is and then try to remember the lie and then keep telling it.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the same is true.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you show up as a lie or inauthentic, then you have to almost always be playing a character.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And people can sense when you're playing a character, people can sense when you're when there's some facade, when it's not when it's not real, it's not genuine.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so to me, it it's just I think that would be exhausting.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it would be very fun.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so from the beginning, even though some of those early episodes are not good, I I have tried to just to follow my genuine curiosity with great rigor, as Brian Kopelman told me.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if people like it, that's great.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if they don't, that's a bummer, but I'm gonna keep going.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I I I think I think really that's what it's about.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's like not living a lie and knowing, and Seth Godin said this to me multiple times I've had him on the show, it's not for everybody, and that's okay.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it would be much worse if you create this character in order to attract a certain type of person, and then you realize, oh my God, like that's not me, and I probably haven't even attracted the type of person I want to attract.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so it's I'd rather attract people who are just kind of kind of curious about the things I'm curious about, and they have questions about it, and they and we want to talk through those things.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: But if it was a character or a performance as opposed to just showing up genuinely as yourself, that would be exhausting.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it'd be very fun, and I definitely don't think it would be sustainable long term.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, my favorite thing to do is to do what we're doing right now, have a deep long-form conversation with one person at a time.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I the reward for me is that I get to keep doing it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if I don't do it well or if I'm not genuine, I won't get to keep doing it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, it's all about like the reward for that is that that I get the opportunity to keep doing it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so in order to do that, I I think I do have to be genuine, real, authentic to make it maybe attractive to the type of people that I want to be around.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think people know when it's not.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what's interesting is like I see so many people trying, trying to be something that they're not, and who they are is great, but they don't think it's good enough, or they don't think it's polished enough, or you know, they've changed their real picture to an AI picture or whatever, which you know, maybe some of those look cool.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them look cool, you know.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they do, but sometimes you do it for fun.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh, I've done it for pay.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm honest.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've done I've definitely tried it out, but I'm like, man, my teeth are really nicer in real life than they are at AI.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: They really need to work on the teeth.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in in general, like I think sometimes we don't actually think we're good enough.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And even even, and maybe that's part of being a leader too.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you just don't think you're good enough, so you keep striving, but it's not about being good enough, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and think that's a personal thing.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, maybe I'm not good enough is more of like I need to work through some things to understand that I am and what I'm doing is different and inspiring.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And being me actually is one of the most authentic things I can do to be a leader.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's where I wish people would hear that more.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't, I mean, of all the people that you've interviewed, and you've interviewed 520 plus, and probably even more so in in your work that you do when you speak and talk to others and work with companies, like what are the the pieces, or can you think of like a few people you would say, like that is one of the most authentic leaders I've ever met?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's funny this that you're asking this now.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just released an episode with a guy named Kevin Kelly.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Some call him the most interesting man in the world.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's written a lot of great books and blog posts, things I've read.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: He started Wired magazine many years ago.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, in that conversation with him, I talked about a young woman named Maggie Rogers.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe at the time of the video that I had saw I had seen, Maggie was 21, 22 years old.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: She went to college to study music and to produce and make music.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And one day there's a special guest.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: That special guest is Pharrell.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And Pharrell is coming in to kind of listen to some of the music they've made, give them some feedback, and just talk to them.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think they called it a masterclass with Pharrell.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, Pharrell's sitting there in this video, and and Maggie Rogers is here, and the teacher is over here.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, All right, well, let's you know, let's play it up.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's listen to it, Maggie, let's go.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: And she presses play, and this beautiful you may have seen the video, but it if not, I'll send it to you.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's awesome.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: But this beautiful song pops up, unlike anything I'd ever heard before.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they go through and you look, and the video is just so cool because you see Pharrell's eyes, he's just like, What?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, you know, and she's still nervous.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: She's looking at his shoes.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Eva, I read, I I saw her in an interview afterwards.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I was so nervous, I just looked at his shoes.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but he's he he's looking at her, like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he gets they the song ends and the other students clap, and he looks at her and he goes, Wow, I have absolutely no notes for you.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: You want to know why?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've never heard anything like that before.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's authentically you.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's he's like, it's like the Wu-Tang clan.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: You may not like it, but you've never heard anything like it.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and and Kevin Kelly, the reason I brought that story up with him is because he said, Don't try to be the best, try to be the only.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's hard, but in that case, Maggie Rogers was the only.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: She was I I hadn't heard anything like that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: And on top of that, she's sitting next to one of her musical heroes, and she had the guts to press play.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's an inspiring it's an inspiring thing to think about in our own lives is when do we have the guts not only to try to be the only, but also to press play, especially if we create art.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I do, I I do have a wide view of art, not not only music, not only paintings and drawings, but also books and words.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think that can be forms uh an art form.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's to me like the ultimate form of being the only, having guts, and of being an original.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a lot of bands who probably try to sound like the Beatles or name what other famous band, but most of the ones who really break through, you you probably haven't heard anything like that before.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Nirvana just came to mind for me like when you said that of like they're the only, you know.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Loved that that that unplugged concert that uh I I remember that unplugged concert very well on MTV that's still making the rounds online, and it was just like I haven't heard anything like this before, and just it's so original and so cool.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think we can draw from stories like that, from that art for our own lives to say, well, what's what do I uniquely bring to the table?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think like it's just gonna come pouring out easily.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: It takes work, it takes effort, it takes being really thoughtful about it, but it is pretty cool when it does come out, when you do see it.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's something that I I I try to work on all the time because it's it's hard, it's much easier just to kind of kind of semi-copy and add on to what somebody else has already done versus being being the the only in your category.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and being the original.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing it takes is time.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and people are very impatient.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I'm at I that's not my middle name, patience, but I realize, I think, especially since I started my own company and I started doing things, that it takes time.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, you have to be patient, you have to be genuine, you have to go through the pieces, this overnight success and you know, making millions and millions of dollars.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's honestly not what it's all about for me.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have two things written on a chart in my office.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's create enjoy.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to always be creating and I want to be happy.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And a little ROI in there is great, but I think you know, from the particulars of like that should be leading what I do.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be creative, I want to be learning.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be connecting and then I want to be happy.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of my career I was creating, but I'm not sure I was happy.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, it was good, but was it was it really that good?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, was I happy for a little bit and then kind of up and down?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, like it just takes some time, especially when you're starting off.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, as I work with people and work with my clients, like one of the things I try to do things very quickly, like one of the things that I work on is agility and decision making and course correcting daily versus every six months or three months.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's agility of a leader too.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to time, you know, what do you see with regard to how how leaders manage time and expectation of success?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I see a wide variety of this.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is actually one of the areas that a lot of them really struggle with.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: So some of the the people I work with in my learning leader circles and one-on-one clients that have big jobs, senior level jobs in corporate America, and one of the natural exercises that probably everybody does who works with some sort of advisor or coach is you pull up your calendar, you review it for the past two weeks, you look for it, you look at what's happening in the the f the upcoming two weeks, and right, we just talk about like, okay, what are we doing each day?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it is quite common to see a lot of back to back to back to back to back to back type days, which to me feels like a nightmare, but I get it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I have worked, I was VP of sales for a$500 million business.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I had a calendar like that one day.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was not very fun.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Those days were not long for me, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did it for exactly one year?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I think how we could improve is to strip those calendars to nothing and only add back the essential.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, much easier said than done.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I say this, I've gone through this exercise multiple times.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times we still struggle even after going through oh no, that's essential.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's essential, that's essential.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: One that usually stems from a lack of trust and delegation and having your leaders make decisions without you.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's just one symptom of maybe a greater problem.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think time management is is a big issue that continues to be here.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is kind of a weird paradox where people claim they don't want to be that busy, but they also like to be busy.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: And some of them have it like hold it up as a badge, like, I'm just so busy.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, I'm just so busy.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But some of them actually get less busy and and then they almost get more on edge, like, wait a second, am I not doing enough?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so it it's especially with like high performers, I found that it's hard to get to the place where you can clear out and have more time to be reflective and more thoughtful and more strategic, which all leaders need to be.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it takes time, it takes work to get to get over that fact that no, you don't have to have a meeting all the time with random people with an organization.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: We gotta, we gotta get past that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: But that is certainly a a a process that is not an easy one.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you talk about in your first book is is really around purpose, focus, and discipline.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when it comes to your calendar, like you really need to kind of funnel it through those three words purpose, what is the purpose of the meeting, what is the focus of the meeting, and do I have the discipline to not have it or have it?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm in the meeting, how do I make sure we actually stick to what we want to accomplish in this time together?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the one thing I see as I work with people primarily in a one-to-one way, is they say they don't have time for a strategy.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ask the first question is like, well, how are you spending your time?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of going to your example of a lot of back-to-back meetings, but you know, are you setting them?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is your supervisor same?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is hard to decline your supervisor.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, from that perspective, like it's are you focused on strategy?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are you focused on being busy?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I love what you talked about there, like trust or delegation.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not only trust maybe of your staff, maybe you trust your staff, but maybe your leader doesn't trust you, or you know, like trust could like go in different directions.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the delegation factor, like, are you just holding on to stuff that you shouldn't because you want it to be perfect or you want it to be, you know, polished, but people don't learn if they don't figure out how to work do the work.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those are things for people to hear too.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the things people do is they just they have the meetings because it's what they've always done or how it's how the organization runs.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I was a big believer of you know, quarterly looking at what you've spent your time on and going, Whoa, like I've spent way too much time.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna clear all my one-to-ones.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna clear it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it's you go to like put things, well, that's important.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's important.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I remember my assistant going, Well, now you've put half of them back on, you know, and it's like, okay, that didn't go as I thought.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's just maybe a challenge for people to really think about purposeful use of their time.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when they say they don't have time for strategy, to really think why they don't, because they're probably not prioritizing it.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Would would you agree with that?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and to hit back about meetings, not a big fan of reoccurring meetings.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes you just go to them because they're reoccurring without like enough intention of what we're what the purpose is.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, it was on both of our calendars or on all of our calendars as a reoccurring meeting.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh as a as a manager in corporate America, that was one of the things that I just didn't have re I stopped having reoccurring meetings.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: If I was going to have a meeting with my team, like let's say Monday to kick off the week, then I would send them a meeting notice with the proper amount of time with a detailed agenda of why we're having the meeting and and and keeping the number of people in the meeting as few as possible, just the people who have to be there.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the other thing is like we started adding, like we have meeting bloat, we start just adding a bunch of oh, yeah, they should be there.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they well, they need to be aware of this.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just have them come sit, sit in and let's have them sit in.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so before you know it, there are like 20 people in there and really only need a meeting for six or something.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that happens, and that's how you get caught up and you feel like, oh, I guess I gotta go because they invited me.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I did like years ago when Elon Musk said, like, if you don't need to be here, you just leave.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just go.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's part of how we're gonna do it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you shouldn't be invited and don't invite people that don't need to be there.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think that's a smart thing that to try to have fewer meetings, but just have a purpose behind all of them and and don't have reoccurring ones unless you have a distinct purpose and reason for doing it and an outcome you're trying to get from each of those.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: That that seems to help.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: But we could talk about meetings forever because it's it's an ongoing thing that seems like will never fully be solved, but will also always be a part of a leader's life.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really about how you use your time.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things that I said was kind of looking back and doing that audit or looking forward and looking the audit, you know.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think just really thinking purposely about it is important.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to end with one of the most recent episodes you were talking about if you had a party and your family couldn't come, who would you invite?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to talk a little bit about who you selected if you're okay with that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly, why would you select that person to be at your party?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And each of them is a leader in their own right.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you had mentioned that you would have The Rock, Dave Chappelle, Dave Matthews, Peyton Manning, and Taylor Stuff.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, these are like dream dream guests, yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your dream guests.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it was to a birthday party, was your example.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it in each one of those, why would you want them either as a guest at your party or you know, maybe they've been, I don't think The Rock's been on your podcast yet, has he?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just start with him.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why would you, or what do you see in him as a leader?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you want him at your your party?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think he's a really interesting guy.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think he I had Jason Pfeiffer on who got to know him really well, who runs Entrepreneur magazine, and said he was genuine and very kind and very thoughtful and very grateful for his life.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: So not only is he this big, strong, charismatic, confident guy, but he's also humble and kind and curious and thoughtful and caring for other people.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's an awesome combination.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he just leads a really interesting life.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would bet he has a lot of amazing stories that I would try to draw out of him if I was talking to him.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: So he's kind of got the combination of it all.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I would think the commonality of all the people I mentioned was not only are they leading a very interesting life, but from what I hear of the people that do know them and from what you see, they seem to be humble and kind and curious and thoughtful people too.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and each one of them worked really hard.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it wasn't like, you know, Peyton Manning just stepped on the football field and was the best.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when you think about, you know, he's the only, actually.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, each one of these probably is an only.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're not just the best in their field, like they're the only.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and they worked really hard.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: When you think of leadership too, like it is not an easy path sometimes, right?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So each one of these people, I think, in addition to the things that you said about them, I think they also worked really hard.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: For Dave Matthews, I'm just curious because I'm a Dave Matthews fan myself.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I wondered kind of what did you see in him as a leader?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I've I've been going to Dave shows since um middle school, high school.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we've probably seen him like 80 times.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Just my my favorite musician in the world.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've been lucky to meet him before.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a few years.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: Again, courage to stand up for what he believes in, knowing that he at times is going to maybe alienate fans.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily even agree with everything he says, but I love the fact that he has the courage and guts to do that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a great quality in all people.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Again, from I I've been lucky to get to know people who who work with him and know him well, and everything I hear is the is is again very curious, very thoughtful, very loving, very caring.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And when he gets on stage, I mean, I just I absolutely love every second of those shows.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I watch a ton of their stuff online, I listen to a ton of it, and like I said, I've been to maybe 80 plus shows.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: There were some years where we would go to upwards of eight, nine, ten Dave shows a a year.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't go to quite as many as anymore, but I'll go to at least one or two a year, maybe more than that, depending on the year and the locations.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: This year I think I'm gonna go to two or three.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have you been to the gorge?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever done the gorge?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't, you know, it I would love to do that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's never the best time of the year because it's right around when it's always a fall.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: School with school and stuff going on with our kids.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: So my wife is not as big a fan.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: She she goes to be nice to me and and would not like to see them multiple days in a row.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: I could see them.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: I could see them every single like I wanted to go to the Mexico Dave and Tim shows the past couple of years.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, let's go, let's go, let's go.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't want to go by myself.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I would, but I'd I'd rather go with her.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and I know though she wouldn't like that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: She'd be like, let's just go to the concert one of the nights.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, I kind of want to go every night.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I love, I mean, on top of him being just an amazing guy, and the management company he works with, uh, a guy who who works there was in one of my leadership circles, and so we talk all the time about him.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, what's he actually like?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's he like?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Oh my god, he's he's even better than you than you would imagine.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's even better.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that type of thing is why I would put put a guy like Dave on the list too.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'll end with someone who I actually just watched her documentary, so Taylor Swift.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I knew people were hard on her and judgmental, but I didn't realize how rude and awful and hateful some people were, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if you've seen her documentary, but it was when, you know, sh people were saying she was above herself.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it was actually when she stood up for something.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it was around the election time.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna get political, but she stood up for something, and it was it had a positive and it had a negative reaction.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, I think people also took it to another degree.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: But this is someone who, as a human being, who, you know, like has feelings who has a family, and I think just the way that she handled it, at least what was represented in the documentary, I was just surprised at that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that's also a sign of a leader of standing up for something, knowing that you could take a hit, you could, and Dave's done this, and probably the rocks, I mean, probably every one of the people on your list and a lot of your leaders on your yeah, on your show.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: But like when it comes to leadership and and the criticism, like is there anything particular about Taylor or any of your other leaders that we can learn from in the sense of realizing that be a leader may also come with criticism and and negativity, but it's standing in that space that I think is bold, uh or a bold part of being a leader.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I watched that on spring break with my daughter Ella.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: We stayed up and watched that for that was probably the third or fourth time we watched the same documentary.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I know she was very nervous when she posted that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember that scene very well.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: I give huge credit because it would be much, much easier not to do it.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I think values are though.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Values are doing it when it's hard.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Taylor can say, like, I stand up for women's rights.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's one thing to say it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's another thing to potentially alienate a lot of fans by making that post when she did the stand up for she supported one person running for office versus another one.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: And in this case, potentially she she was worried that it could potentially hurt her career.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think it helped her career.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she's bigger than ever.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to her show uh coming up.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: You got tickets, good.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Seen a lot of clips.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that is a that is an absolute form of leadership is to stand up for what you believe in because at your core, like you watched her in those meetings, her dad, all of her business managers are like, What are you doing?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's not worth it.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: The Dixie chicks got ruined by doing whatever.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Don't become them.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, No.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she's she's kind of getting emotional and saying, You don't understand.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then she she lists out her values about being a leader and about being a woman, and all the I thought, oh my God, like this is awesome.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: I became a huge fan.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, on top of that, I also think she is wildly talented and and writes her own music and sits in there and collaborates with people and they come up with I'm just like, I am blown away by artists who are able to create from nothing or draw from their own life experiences and make art that makes other people feel great.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I mean, we I can't wait for that dad, dad, daughter moment to go to the show.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't matter what it costs, like I was gonna go.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I because I I think it could I think that's what life's really all about is creating amazing experiences with people you love.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's partially why we work so hard, is to try our best to create these magical experiences with the people we love the most.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's like turning hard work into loving, memorable, awesome experiences.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the whole point.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are we doing here if we're not trying to do that?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, that's that's how I kind of think about both her, Taylor Swift, as well as the experiences that she's creating for so many people, pretty much like like at at all of her shows.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting fact.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, leadership actually is creating an experience.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whether it's for your team or for your fans or you know, for yourself, honestly.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, that's what it's about.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's what working hard is about, is to create that experience that inspires others, that helps others feel that they're not alone, or helps people know that they can make it too, you know.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, I think that's one thing that we don't realize and probably value enough in one another, is like there's something to learn from everyone.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe you learn what not to do, maybe you learn what to do.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, like I had early loss in my life.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I lost my brother when I was six and he was 11.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like that kind of definitely put me on a path of like YOLO big time, and the and like knowing that it doesn't matter how old you are.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like people thinking, oh, I'm gonna just kind of live through this and retire in 10 years or gonna just to me it's I just mean like you gotta live life now.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Live it, have that experience.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what good leaders do too.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: They create that experience.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I've never thought about it that way until you just said it, but I I think it's something that you create for others as well as yourself.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but Bill Perkins has this this term called memory dividends.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: I had him on the show.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: His book's called Die With Zero.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot about creating those memory dividends, which essentially are like again, turning your hard work, which which hopefully creates financial resources into amazing experiences with people you love, which then you'll have those memory dividends for the rest of your life.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have like nostalgia for for some of the best moments of your life.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of having a default setting is I want to create more nostalgic moments that I'll look back on fondly.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, I'm just constantly thinking about that, whatever it may be.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to I want to say, like, how am I actively working to create nostalgic moments?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of the examples of this for me is I have a also have a daughter, Charlie, who's eight years old.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: And one of our favorite things in the world to do is for me to hold her and throw her in the pool.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: She loves it.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's one of the it's just the ultimate joy, right?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: We have pictures and videos, and it's just the best.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love it so, so much.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: And before last summer, though, I was thinking like, what can I do to ensure I I create as many of those memory dividends as possible?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's something that's virtually free, right?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: We just have a membership to the pool.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it was just like, do whatever it takes when it's cold.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: I live in Ohio, do whatever it takes when it's cold outside, so that when it's warm, I'm gonna get out of my studio around 3:30-ish and we're gonna go to the pool as many days as possible.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna do the same thing this summer, and I've been working on my schedule so that I can do that again this summer.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just, I think it just it's about being intentional around creating those memory dividends for yourself and being very clear on how you can do it, whatever they may be for you.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's all it's different for everybody.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: The the the the point is to figure out what that is for you and then try to engineer your life, your work to do that.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that's what I try to do.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily the case for everybody is able to based on their job.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I do get the privilege in that, but I think it's at least worth the discussion and it's worth the thoughts of how you can do that for yourself and try to try to because I don't see any way I will ever regret any of those days leaving early to go throw her in the pool.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Never.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I also know she's growing fast, so I don't know when she's gonna be too big.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Either she doesn't want me to, or she's literally too long for me to do that anymore.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like it there's a finality to it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I realize those days are coming fast.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's like, let's just make the most of it.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, whatever that thing is for anybody, it it's it's it as you said, YOLO, whatever it may be, it's like make the most of that like right now and be intentional about how you can you can figure that out and create that for yourself right now.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a great way for us as we kind of end out the podcast of one of the things you talk about is meeting the moment.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: So in my mind, like that is meeting the moment, like understanding that this is a choice I'm making, and I'm making it for these reasons, and they're all really, really good.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and what else would you advise people when they're when they're working to meet the moment they're in as a leader or in their leadership journey?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think preparation is something I've learned from a lot from again.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: My high school football coaches were the the the most prepared people I've ever met up to that point.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they're always prepared for the moment.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think consistency helps you be better prepared for big moments.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Consistency of work ethic helps you be better prepared for those moments, and then stacking evidence for yourself so that when the next big moment arises, you have something to draw from that that creates confidence for you.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't think we get confident by there's a great quote, I forgot Alex Rmozzi or Mosey, I forget I think his name is, and I'm gonna butcher it, but I'll paraphrase as best as I can remember his he said, you don't you don't get confident by screaming aphorisms in the mirror looking at yourself.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: You get confident by stacking evidence for yourself day after day after day that you can do hard things and then you can draw from that.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, I I think that's how you meet moments is that you that like you just consistently show up, you're prepared, you've done the work, you've created evidence for yourself, which then leads to confidence, which then leads to you probably better meeting the moment.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's an ongoing process that never ever ends.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: The only way to get good at it is to get going.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta do it.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think we learn who we are in practice, not in theory, as Hermenia Abarra once said.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, like that's that's what it's all about.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody's struggling, I'm like, get going, man.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: I spoke with a kid who's graduating college and two weeks, two nights ago.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, you you gotta get going.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: I you you can't just be waiting around sending resumes, like get a job or find a person to work for or do something you can always change, you can always alter, you but but go into it with one a great work work ethic, and two, just trying to learn as much as possible, knowing that you're young, you have the opportunity to change jobs or even professions or anything, but get going first, and then that's how you really truly learn.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it comes from experience, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you said is like doing hard things over and over and and not always succeeding.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's that just do it.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: If we could just bottle that, Ryan, like let me know.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people don't want to take a drink.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, all this stuff's much easier said than done, right?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why again, that's that kind of leads back.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we gotta we gotta go.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like we gotta take action on like whatever the thing is.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: A guy yesterday, hey, I want to get up and give speeches like like you've done.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, then get on stages.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: However, you gotta get on stages, that's what you got to do, man.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: So do it for free.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Pay to be on stage, whatever you gotta do, yeah, get on a stage or even create your own stage.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the best way to get good at it is to do it.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's usually the case for just about anything.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everything.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and sometimes your first is the worst.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like just realize that.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Usually, and you gotta be willing to be okay with that, right?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta be willing to be okay with being a beginner and not being good.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, rarely are you gonna be good at anything you try for the first time.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just played pickleball for the first time.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I can kind of figure it out because from playing tennis and ping-pong, I kind of get it, but like I'm not that good yet.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: But um, it's okay.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I'll I'll take a few beatings here and there in order to try to get good because it seems like a pretty fun thing to do.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like that.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's okay.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be embarrassed by people who are not as athletic as me initially because I don't know what I'm doing yet.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: But eventually, you know, I'll keep keep going.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'll probably probably be okay.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I just think whatever the thing is, you just got to do it.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a delight to have you.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: All information about Ryan, his books, his podcast.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please do listen to The Learning Leader are below in the episode notes.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ryan.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: You will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important stories.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey with those with a bold instant.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.