Latest / Sports Card Clubhouse / Michael Jordan 7-Figure 1/1s w/ChrisHOJ!

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Michael Jordan 7-Figure 1/1s w/ChrisHOJ! · Sports Card Clubhouse

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Hey, everybody, it is Mike and this is normally my this week in
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sports cards and again, there hasn't been much actually Greg,
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my partner here said why don't you have on Chris Hoge and talk
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about the two Jordans And I went and I watched his the Hoge cast
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right? And he Chris is a great YouTube
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also founder of Co founder of card ladder.
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And Chris, welcome, by the way, thank you for joining me.
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Great to be here. It's an honor.
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I feel like you are one of the the more interesting minds of
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sports card YouTube. The you're more of a thinker
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than more people, or at least you're really good at sharing
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your thoughts and having it come across.
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I know your your videos are longer than normal, but they're
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also very interesting and I always feel like man, this guy
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is so much smarter than me. I.
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Was gonna say, that's a very kind way of saying I make boring
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videos. A bit of a struggle session too,
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but I appreciate that. And I, it's just I, I, it's just
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that I've been thinking about cards for the majority of my
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waking hours for almost 10 years.
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So I have a lot to say. That's basically what it boils
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down to, I think. OK.
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So before we get into the Jordans, then 10 years, what
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were you doing before that? Before that and I'm I'm coming
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up on the 10 year anniversary of my return to collecting, which
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would have been June of 2016. And the thing that sparked that
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was I took a gap year. So how do I make this really
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short and sweet? I went back to school at a non
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traditional age. I went back to College in my mid
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20s, graduated and then wanted to go to law school.
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So I took a gap year to take the Lsats and study for it and
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stuff. But I got distracted during my
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gap year and I just started, I rediscovered my old collection
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and I just couldn't stop diving down further and further into
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the rabbit hole of sports card collecting.
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And so that was 2016. And then I did eventually go to
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law school and stuff, but I just kept getting more and more
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fixated on collecting cards. And and then sort of timelines
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just so happened to line up where this when I graduated law
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school, that was right as the stay at home stuff was starting
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to happen during the COVID-19 pandemic.
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So all my classes for my final semester went to pass fail.
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Everything was done electronically.
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Nobody came into campus anymore. And that provided the time and
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the groundwork to for me and my fellow Co founders to build cart
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ladder, which was just, you know, kind of this hope and a
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prayer at that time. But but you know, the
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circumstances just sort of lined up that we all kind of were able
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to work on it in a in a condensed fashion.
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And then that was June of 2020. So but yeah, so let me just stop
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there. But that's sort of that.
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So before I got back into cards, I was in college.
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And then before that I was working in the music industry.
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And then and and I collected as a kid.
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So but the but I took, you know, a nice gap there for about 20
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years. So I'm not familiar with the the
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background, so this is really interesting for me.
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Thank you. OK, so card ladder, five years
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roughly, almost 6 maybe, Yeah. Coming up on 6.
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OK Congrats that's that's awesome.
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I had a much longer gap so I stopped collecting in 94 ish and
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I had when I look back at my childhood collection, it ended
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in I didn't have a lot of 1994 cards.
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So I know I must have stopped collecting early in 94 when I
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was 15 years old. And then I collected again in
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2003 when we found out my wife was pregnant and got this like
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nostalgia like I'm going to have a kid.
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And so I collected in O3 and O4 and then the kid was born and we
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had no money. So there's no more collecting
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and really didn't have any money again until the pandemic late
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2020 when I was like, I'm going to pick up a box of cards at
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Target. So they're really there's like
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27 years other than a little re entry, but yeah.
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So how long was your gap then? Yeah, so that's so interesting.
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Now you got me wanting to pinpoint it.
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So I, I think I, I, I have vivid recollection of begging my mom
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to buy me packs of 1997 SPX basketball.
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And these were like 5 or $10 packs.
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They only had one card each one came with one die cut card.
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And, and I remember like my mom after like maybe 5 packs, she
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was like, you get one card out of these.
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Like what do you, why, why do you want this?
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And I just remember feeling like I will never make this base set.
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I think it was like 100 cards. And I was just very dejected
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actually. So I, OK, so I remember that and
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I have very like 9394 was my like first basketball card
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collecting year. I remember being a big fan of
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Chris Webber, primarily because we had the same name and and I
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had his power in the key card from Ultra 9394, which I which I
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kept over all the years. And then so it was so I probably
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stopped around 97 or 98 as I was like getting into middle school,
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high school age. And then and then I started
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again for sure in June of 2016. That was my return was June of
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2016. And then and you know, yeah,
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about 20 years like cards was just it was, I don't, I don't
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know if it was just like this, if it was my brain just finding
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the most compelling way to procrastinate from studying for
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the LSAT or if it was just the timing of just like there's
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there's something probably like you mentioned that, you know,
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having a child coming was sort of a, a spark that of the
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collector flame. And I, and I just wondered also
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maybe if there's just maybe an age thing 'cause I was right
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around 30 in 2016. So maybe it's just sort of a
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nostalgia for youth thing or if it was just procrastination or,
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and it was certainly triggered by discovering my old
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collection. That was the catalyst for sure
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was like I went back home after I finished college and I was
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discovering stuff in my bedroom and like I found all the cards
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and I found that Chris Webber powering the key in a screw down
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and stuff and that that was what sort of jump started it all.
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So. Yes, yeah.
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I was not a big basketball collector as a kid.
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I was a bigger baseball fan as a kid from the 86 until, I don't
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know, 9091 probably was just baseball, and then starting
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around 91, well, 1990 had the what was the shoot?
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My brain is fried after a week of doing performance appraisals
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for work. What was the the new set that
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came out in 1990 for the NBA? Oh, well, I guess Skybox was
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debuting around that time. Yeah, with like the colors in
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the background, Yeah. Yeah, loved that set and bought
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a lot of in. It's 199091.
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I bought a lot of basketball, but still mostly baseball.
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Do you have any baseball? I know you have a massive
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basketball collection. I have a baseball Michael Jordan
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card. That's kind of my bridge to
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baseball. I did.
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I did like sleeping a little bit of baseball.
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Yeah. Yeah, I showed that with Tony.
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Yeah, I showed that with Tony. That was like my common ground
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with his audience, not I. Remember that.
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Yeah, yeah, not much, but that's my try.
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But no, I mean, I I always had some baseball cards, you know,
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like growing up in the Chicago area, I was a big Cubs guy and
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that was the era of Sosa and McGuire and the home run chase
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and everything. It was a great, great era, but
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but I was always more basketball cards and not, you know, I love
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football, watch football. Same thing for baseball, played
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baseball. Probably that was the sport that
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I played the longest in my youth.
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But but I don't know. I was just basketball,
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basketball cards. I was one of my favorite sport.
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That was always my favorite cards.
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Basketball became my favorite sport.
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I always played it. I played it since I was 4.
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Well, you're tall. I'm 6.
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Two, yeah, I played. So I played competitively until
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I was 35, about 11-12 years ago and still love basketball, no
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matter what people say about the NBAI just love basketball.
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I could play. I could go out.
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I haven't shot around more than once or twice a year.
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I would. I could go out and play three on
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three. Not full court because I would
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die, but I could play three on three any day.
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Nice. What caught my attention in this
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video is the the 2 Michael Jordan's and in in the 1990s,
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one of ones were not very common.
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And you you talked through the importance like one year, I
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don't remember what year it was 97 maybe there were seven one of
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one Michael Jordan's. Is that right?
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That's right. And then one of these is from
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1998 Ultra and the other is 1997 Ultra Masterpiece one of
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1/19/97. And I, I agree with your
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criticism of the 97 Ultra one that they could have, I don't
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remember what you said exactly, but they could have done
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something to add a little color to it.
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Was that what you said? Exactly.
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Yeah, exactly. Like not only is the photo black
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and white and the concept is platinum, but the and and
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remember, we, we, I give grace, right?
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This is the first year ever of stamping one of ones on
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basketball cards. But but there there's a
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platinum, there's a so it's from the 9798 ultra base set and
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there's obviously the base set version.
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There's a gold parallel, the gold medallion, there's a
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platinum parallel, the platinum medallion.
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And then finally there's the masterpiece and the masterpiece
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and the platinum medallion have the same front side design.
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If they were, if if I put applied a medallion on the table
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and the masterpiece on the table in front of you and said you
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can't flip these over, which one is which, you wouldn't be able
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to distinguish them. They quite literally are
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identical aesthetically on the front.
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And that, that's one of my criticisms of the card.
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Would you say that these are the 2 so 1998 and 97 ultra
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masterpiece one of ones? Are these the two most important
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one of ones of Jordan's playing day's career?
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The the 97 has an argument to be, I think.
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I think it has A and and that and that argument spawns from
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the fact that it's the first one of one of Michael Jordan ever
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issued chronologically. Like he has seven from the first
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year of 1 of ones, which is 9798.
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He has seven, but this one was the first one to hit shelves.
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So it was the first one to be distributed and released.
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So in that sense, it it's certainly got an argument.
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But the but the thing that's so fascinating about Michael
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Jordan, 1 of ones and 90s one of ones is that there isn't a
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perfect one. They all have flaws and they all
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have idiosyncrasies that make them unique and sort of
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novelties. And, and like you were alluding
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to, also one 90s collection has never, it wasn't about one of
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ones then and it still isn't today.
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It's about, you know, the big shiny inserts and the, and the
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and the, and the most well known parallels like the PM GS and the
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rubies and the credentials and the one of ones have just always
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sort of been oddballs. They've been obscurities.
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The guide value or estimate here on Heritage is $2,000,000 and
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up. What?
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What would this have sold for 10 years ago?
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Well, let's see, 10 years ago is just such a world of difference
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for Michael Jordan cards in particular.
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That's I just so like, here's how I'll triangulate this.
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I remember in 2019, a Michael Jordan PMG Green sold for around
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$300,000 and that was something that was fit to print in the
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Chicago Tribune. That was such a newsworthy sale
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at that time. So and this card has always been
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seen as quite less than that card.
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And so 10 years ago, the, the Fleer, the number 57 from the
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198687 Fleer base side of Jordan PSA 10s around that time were
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2030 grand. There was a little spike
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actually there was there. That was one of the first like
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bubbles of, of my card with my return to card collection was
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that summer of 2016 when like a lot of things like bubbled and
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then corrected. And the Jordan Fleer was one of
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them. But, but that card was around,
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you know, 30 grand. I, I think a lot of people might
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have had a hard time saying that they like this ultra masterpiece
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more than the 86 Fleer, especially at that time in APSA
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10. So I don't know.
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I would, I put it around it's, it's a wide range, maybe 30 to
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60 grand. Maybe it would go a little bit,
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little bit higher. But but I, I think APMG green
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was selling for around 100,000 around that 2016 time.
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So yeah, maybe, maybe somewhere below the PMG Green and maybe a
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notch above the 86 Fleer. That's crazy.
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So you you talked about wanting to go for one of these.
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Yeah, yeah, sounds, sounds, that definitely sounds quite
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ambitious after we have contextualized all that, Yes.
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And so and so if it does get near the guide value, I'm out.
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I'm I'm hoping that it doesn't, right, But I'm not, I'm probably
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not helping my case by putting attention on it.
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Well, I can't help myself. I like to talk about it.
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That's what I wanted to ask you about is do you worry that you
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are tipping your hand, that you're sharing your research
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'cause you shared a lot of research on it and and the
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importance of it, and that you're drawing more attention to
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it and hurting your own case? I bet I am or I bet there's a
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decent chance I'm I'm not widely listened to.
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Let's start there. I, I don't give very many
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listeners to my podcast so that, but, but there's, there might be
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a few who would take an interest in it who maybe otherwise
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weren't so interested in it. But but whatever chance I might
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cost myself at a car that's already sort of a fantasy to
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begin with, it, it would require leveraging pretty much my entire
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collection if I did ever want to make a stab at it.
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And I have taken it seriously enough to reach out to Heritage,
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discuss payment plans, discuss, you know, options for how I
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might be able to send in cards for consignments and stuff.
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And, and so I've, I've discussed trying to get creative and
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figure out a way to do it. So I'm serious about it.
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But, but you know, whatever, whatever I might cost myself, if
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I do put this on the radar of somebody who's better positioned
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to afford it than me, I, I, I do make up something else in the
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and being able to contemporaneously document it
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and talk about it, like whether or not that card lands with me.
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I think that's such a cool card. I think it's important part of
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sports card history. I think it's, it's so
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fascinating that it's come to auction.
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It never had before. To my knowledge, this is the
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first time it's, it's had a public opportunity to be
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purchased. So I just think it's a cool part
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of sports card history. I think it's a cool Michael
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Jordan card. And I do collect other Michael
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Jordan 1 of ones, far lesser ones and far ones that are well,
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much, much more obscured even than this Ultra is.
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So I get to talk about those, you know, and I get to, I get to
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share sort of, you know, it, it's like a connection point.
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Like people are like, oh, what's this interesting Michael Jordan
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card that's for sale? And then I can talk about that
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and I can relate it back to some of the ones that I have and some
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of the ones that that I've already been working on
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collecting and documenting and stuff.
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So overall, like I get AI get I, it's, it's fun.
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I, I get to enjoy it. And the reality is I'm I'm
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probably not going to get that card anyway, So why not have fun
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with? It sure.
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So you have a pretty sizable impressive Jokic collection, do
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you? I'm a big Yokich guy.
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I think Yokich if you if you consider the fact that he has
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never had another All Star for a teammate.
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Until this year. Until this year, until this
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year, until this year, never had an all NBA player.
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He won a title. He has I don't know how many
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MVPS he has. He has an argument if you if you
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you have to take out the the lack of more titles that he is
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the greatest, most talented basketball player of all time.
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Preacher to the choir here. Argue against it if you know
16:03
basketball. If you know, basketball and and
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so I love basketball, but I've, I did certainly didn't play it
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competitively nearly on the level that you did.
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So I do supplement my understanding of the sport with
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statistics and with like some of the major catch all and advance
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metrics that different very bright basketball minds have
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contributed over the last 20 years or so during the analytics
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revolution. And it's tough to find one of
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those metrics that doesn't have Jokic at the very, very top of
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it. So there's a lot recommending
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him. And he actually has an one of
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the one of the like the little trivia stats is that Jokic of
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all players in NBA history, not just MVPS, not just All Stars,
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not just champions of all players in NBA history, Jokic
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has the longest stretch of games played without a fellow All Star
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teammate of any player, not just of top players, any player ever.
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He had the longest stretch. But that that doesn't do total.
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That's a little bit of a disservice to have special guys
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like Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon and formerly Michael
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Porter junior. And some of these guys were
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because those guys are are great players.
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It is nice that you're that Murray's going to get to see an
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All Star game this year. Yeah, they're all very good
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players, but they're not Pippen, Rodman, Kerr.
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They're not. They're not even.
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Jaylen Brown is an All NBA player and Tatum's got him.
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Every great player has always had at least one other great
17:28
player alongside of him. And Jamal Murray is, I would
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say, very good to great. I I wouldn't quite call him
17:38
great. Aaron Gordon is a great role
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player and he's a very good player otherwise.
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Michael Porter, Junior, very good, but he's just never.
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I don't want to go too deep into Yokich.
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I'm just I'm a huge Yokich fan. He's fun to watch, He's fun to
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listen to. Do you feel like this could be
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the peak of his card values? This could be if he if he
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doesn't succeed this year, he's on that.
18:10
He's at that kind of cusp of his age.
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Just had his first major injury. And his body type could it?
18:22
Could it be? But.
18:23
Now is the time. This is such a great question.
18:26
It's a funny question because I was sort of imagining what I
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would say to this question when I was listening this morning to
18:33
you and Texas Snowman talk about Mike Trout and how Mike Trout
18:38
had this decade run. You guys were mentioning where
18:40
he finished either first or second MVP voting and he was
18:44
just regarded as the best player in baseball for a decade.
18:46
He has three MVPS. Yokich has three MVPS and you
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guys kind of sort of made the point that, well, you know, he
18:52
he never really like Ohtani left and went to the Dodgers and
18:56
immediately was contending in winning championships and
18:58
trouts. You pointed out as this like
19:00
this this irrational loyalty to the Angels organization.
19:06
But but but you also complimented his respect for
19:10
their fans. But but I think about that.
19:13
I think like, yeah, that's that's the thing that I think
19:15
myself as a yoga collector, but certainly any collector of any
19:19
active player who's putting themselves into all time great
19:23
discussions and their card prices are reflecting that
19:27
speculation that the question isn't really I don't think how
19:32
how will the question isn't will there be a deflation and people
19:37
sort of move on to the next thing.
19:38
And this is this player fades out of conscious of the public
19:40
consciousness. It's not a question of if that
19:42
will happen. It's a question of how severe
19:44
will it be? Will it be a Mike Trout level
19:47
drop off where Trout's cards still sell for strong prices,
19:50
but the but you guys use the word plummeting and that's
19:53
right, that that is what has happened to his prices.
19:56
And and you know, you like the like, and we even have a more,
19:59
you know, like. On brand comparisons like like
20:03
with Giannis, you know Giannis had this amazing run, two
20:06
regular season MVPS, the finals MVP and his market has corrected
20:10
substantially now his cards still sell for strong.
20:12
You know, like if you wanted to get, you know, a cool one of one
20:17
of his, you know, it's, you're gonna probably have to spend a
20:19
few 1000 bucks if it's from one of the better brands, maybe even
20:21
more if it's like a prism or something like that.
20:23
So, you know, and just like trout, like trout super factors
20:26
aren't gonna be cheap now or anytime soon.
20:28
But but the, the, the momentum, the upward swing, the, you know,
20:33
all of that sort of the crescendo happens.
20:35
And then I look at Jokic and I, that's exactly what I was
20:37
thinking about you guys. You guys were talking about
20:38
Trout. I was like, yeah, you know, I
20:39
see some parallels here. I think there is a real chance
20:43
that it that it is as soon as sort of somebody else ascends
20:47
and kind of takes the mantle the best place in the best player in
20:49
the world. And eventually that will happen.
20:50
It might not be this year, might not be next year, but it will
20:52
happen at that time. I think.
20:54
Yeah, I think he's going to lose a lot of momentum.
20:56
I think his car prices will suffer from that.
20:57
I think you won't see as many sort of non hardcore Yokich fans
21:01
taking an interest in him and it'll just fall back to the
21:04
means of the world who are just, you know, we we like we super
21:08
fan him. By the time I published this on
21:11
probably Saturday, will Giannis be of Minnesota Timberwolf?
21:15
Oh my God, Oh, man. You know, I as a person rooting
21:21
for Western, a Western Conference team, I hope not,
21:24
right? I hope not, because that would
21:27
be it. Depending on what they have to
21:28
give up to get them like that. That would be terrifying.
21:31
But but you know, Giannis kind of has this injury thing too.
21:33
He's been injured at key moments, you know, over the last
21:36
Four Seasons. He's missed a few playoffs
21:38
because of it. So that's that's the scary part
21:41
about Giannis. As the biggest Doc Rivers hater,
21:45
you know I am enjoying the Bucks collapse.
21:48
Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoying it.
21:50
It's the least surprising thing ever.
21:53
This must be connected to the Celtics, the Rivers descent.
21:58
Partially is I think that they underperformed when they had the
22:01
big three. One title wasn't enough.
22:04
I think that they should have won at least one other when they
22:07
lost to Kobe and the Lakers. But also he's been gifted so
22:12
many super teams and done nothing with them.
22:16
And they were 30 and 13 when they fired Adrian Griffin.
22:19
The Bucks did to bring in Doc Rivers.
22:21
And I said to my friend, this is the dumbest thing.
22:24
Why would you fire a coach when you're 30 and 13 to bring in the
22:27
most overrated coach in sports history and Doc Rivers I.
22:32
Agree. I agree.
22:33
I was very critical of that firing too.
22:37
I didn't get it at the time. Hasn't hasn't played out well
22:40
since. But I think Giannis supposedly,
22:42
who knows what these how much truth is in any of these
22:45
leagues, but supposedly Giannis wanted it.
22:48
Yeah. Yeah, and you do what your
22:49
superstar athlete wants. Of course I I get that.
22:52
So back to the Jordans. Is is Jordan bubble proof?
22:59
No, absolutely not, absolutely not.
23:04
But it is that sort of thinking that can lead to bubbles
23:07
ironically. But I look, I'll just give the
23:11
I'll give the the most obvious example of this is that during
23:16
the previous category wide bubble in sports cards, which
23:20
was 2021 ish 2022, the 86 FLIR PSA 10 Michael Jordan base card
23:27
suddenly shot up to yes, 7 hundred $750,000.
23:30
There were multiple sales recorded at that level.
23:32
And supposedly there were even more that sort of happened
23:35
privately, but that didn't, that didn't last for very long.
23:40
That that and it, it was A and it was a slow, painful
23:43
correction. We're like, well, now it's 600
23:45
and then now it's 500 and now it's 400 and now it's 300,000.
23:50
And then it bottomed out at around 2.
23:53
And you know, sort of the NBA gold diamond stuff is sort of
23:55
allowing A tier within the PSA 10 to emerge.
23:59
And yeah, the I appeal stuff like there was an outlier high I
24:04
appeal sale of APSA 10 that had the PWCC sticker on it.
24:09
That was like the summer maybe 2022 or 2023, which that was
24:12
sold for like 840,000. But by and large, you know, that
24:15
card has has for the for the ordinary PSA 10 copy it.
24:19
It was once, you know, six $700,000 card for a brief time
24:22
and then now it's, you know, a mere percentage of that.
24:25
So I think that's the quintessential example that that
24:28
even a card like that, which is, you know, the the most
24:31
nostalgic, memorable card for many basketball collectors and,
24:34
and collectors of that era. Even a card like that is can can
24:39
can can lose the the buyer at the peak half $1,000,000 if they
24:43
still have it today. Do you think that the
24:48
Wondershine index or do you think they'll get involved in
24:53
either of these Jordans? I don't or these.
24:55
They're too obscure, right? That's my wishful thinking.
24:59
My wishful thinking is that like they focus on big flashy, game
25:03
worn logo man autographs from the biggest brands and sort of
25:06
ultras like this kind of obscure 90s brand.
25:10
Not maybe not obscure, but it's like a lesser known 90s brand.
25:13
It's certainly no exquisite. It's certainly no PMG.
25:15
It's certainly no, you know, premium brand.
25:19
So, you know, the hope is that this is not something that's
25:22
really on their radar. But but who knows?
25:24
I mean, I don't know. Who knows?
25:27
But Nat Turner well might be interested.
25:30
Nat, that's the guy that can just blow me and everybody else
25:35
out of the water and he's got some of Jordan's very best early
25:40
one of one. So like, like what we said like
25:43
9798, the first year one of one's a basketball.
25:45
There's seven for Michael Jordan.
25:47
Four of them come from Flair Showcase.
25:49
You know, the, the tiered product, the row zero, row one,
25:52
row two, row 3, three of those 4 masterpiece, one of ones from
25:57
Flair Showcase. There's there's a masterpiece
25:59
one of one for each player in each tier.
26:00
So Jordan has four, three of them have publicly surfaced and
26:04
that owns all three. The the only one that hasn't
26:07
surfaced is the Row 3. And so if that one does ever
26:10
show up, you know, is it still in a pack somewhere?
26:12
Did it get discarded? You know, who knows what
26:15
happened to it? But if that one ever shows up,
26:17
I'm sure Nat would make a strong push for it too.
26:21
I don't get on Instagram enough but whenever I do, if Nat has a
26:24
post, his collection is unbelievable.
26:28
It's brilliant and in a lot of ways, it was ahead of its time.
26:31
You know, like he was behind these Michael Jordan 1 of ones
26:35
years and years and years ago. And yeah, his collection is just
26:40
phenomenal. It's it's one of the very best,
26:41
if not the best. Out there, yeah.
26:44
And I don't know much about 90s basketball cards because it's
26:47
very complex. Once you get to like 9697, it
26:51
gets way more complex. Same thing with baseball, too,
26:55
but I don't know much about that era.
26:58
All I know is when I see a nice card, I know it.
27:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they that's one thing they did a really nice
27:05
job of for the most part is the the cards that they wanted to
27:09
get your attention, the cards that they wanted to convey.
27:12
These are special. They they really made them stand
27:16
out. Like, I think that's one of the
27:17
big fascinations with the PM GS is that their design is so
27:21
unique. How they took these, these like
27:23
very cartoonish base cards. And rather than like building on
27:29
the multicolor palette that they have in their background with
27:32
all these like planets and rocket ships and jetpacks and
27:36
stuff, instead they just said we're going to do this like
27:38
postmodern thing where we're just going to blow out the
27:41
background. It's either going to be all red
27:43
foil or it's going to be all green foil.
27:45
And these things are just going to be spectacles.
27:48
And I think that's part of the reason why those have endured is
27:51
and, and have and have ascended to become sort of the defining
27:53
cards of the 90s is that the design is so aggressive.
27:58
It's so in your face. And, and, and so the 90s, yeah,
28:04
to your point, the 90s like really let you know these are
28:06
the, these are the ones, these are the special ones.
28:09
Yeah, and it's very unique too. Nobody ever really did it again
28:14
and so they really stand out. Yeah, yeah.
28:18
There was different philosophies like sort of upper deck had this
28:20
philosophy of subtlety in the 90s.
28:22
Like it was premium, It was, it was, it was, it was a high end
28:26
sort of concept, but, but it was subtle, you know, and I like
28:30
that. I like I've, I've collected some
28:31
Michael Jordan's one of ones from 9899 upper deck, which is
28:35
upper deck's first base set to ever issue a one of one
28:37
parallel. And it was a gold one of one
28:39
parallel. And the, and the, the only thing
28:41
that identifies those is just that they changed the, these
28:44
little slivers of silver foil that run along each of the
28:47
edges. They just changed them from,
28:49
from silver to gold and that, and then they have a stamp on
28:51
the back and that's it. And that's sort of the model
28:53
that Panini picked up on when it took over basketball is that,
28:57
you know, like it's, it's one of ones from its its, its base sets
29:01
are pretty subtle. You know, they change the color
29:03
of the border, they put a stamp on the back and that's about it.
29:05
So they're not adding all these, you know, like really loud
29:09
vibrant colors and patterns and stuff.
29:11
They're just, they don't, they never really approached it that
29:13
way. Instead, they, they were more
29:14
subtle. So that's sort of like having
29:16
collected Jokic and some ultra modern players that kind of made
29:20
me look at Jordan's catalog in a whole different light and say,
29:23
oh, I see the these these upper deck, this this first upper
29:26
deck, one of one set. These sort of laid the
29:29
groundwork for how Panini and some of these other
29:33
manufacturers would eventually start making their one of ones,
29:35
and it made me like them more. Yeah.
29:39
So I'm curious about how you come to an estimate of value in
29:45
car ladder for a one of one. Do you just take, and I don't
29:48
mean just like it's so easy, but do you take the last known
29:52
value, last known sale price and then use the Michael Jordan
29:56
index, for instance? If the card had a sale in card
30:00
ladder, that is how the card ladder value estimate would be
30:04
generated. Yeah.
30:05
So like in a hypothetical world, if you have a Michael Jordan,
30:09
let's say you have a Michael Jordan, one of one that sold for
30:11
$15,000 two months ago, which did happen, and then Michael
30:17
Jordan's index is down 2% since then.
30:20
The card ladder value estimate would just be 15,000 -2%,
30:24
whatever that number works out to be.
30:26
So that would, that's the simple, that's the long and the
30:29
short of how card letter value works.
30:31
And in the case of one of ones in particular, but in, in rare
30:34
cards and even in a car that just doesn't sell very
30:36
frequently, no matter how scarce it is, the card letter value
30:42
becomes less and less helpful. So like, you know, in the case
30:46
of like, like let's say this, this ultra one of one Jordan had
30:50
sold 10 years ago, you know, the cart letter value is going to be
30:53
indicate that it's more than it was 10 years ago.
30:55
But that's the outside of like directionality.
30:59
I don't think the cart letter value is going to be very
31:01
helpful, like cart letter value, but it's like, yeah, it's worth
31:03
more than it was since then. That's probably accurate.
31:06
But other than that, I wouldn't, I would just not even look at
31:09
that number to be helpful. And like, you know, that's
31:12
that's why the cart letter value comes with the a confidence
31:14
interval and anything that's based on a sales more than six
31:18
months ago gets the lowest confidence level.
31:20
So I wouldn't, I wouldn't use if, if I, as a collector trying
31:25
to figure out what one of ones are worth myself from time to
31:27
time, I don't use the cart letter value to do that.
31:30
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting math equation.
31:33
It's, it's something to think about.
31:35
It's a, it's, it's maybe a starting point, but, but I, I
31:38
just think those markets are so subtle and nuanced that, that
31:42
they're just as going to be a one-size-fits-all algorithm
31:44
that's going to be able to price those.
31:47
Yeah, so, oh man, I had AI had a point.
31:51
It was going to be a really great point too, by the way.
31:53
I bet it was. I know it was.
31:57
It was about that, but I I lost it.
32:01
That's OK. Shoot.
32:05
This is what I get for rambling on in my answer.
32:08
No, no it's not. No, no, not your.
32:10
Fault. Lull the host to sleep.
32:13
So I wish you luck. I hope, I hope you end up with
32:17
it. I hope it goes for way less than
32:19
the 2,000,000, not not for the consignor.
32:22
I hope the consignor is very happy.
32:24
That's always The funny thing about that, Mike, is like when
32:26
sometimes people will be like, hey, this is great for the buyer
32:29
and the seller and it's like, is that ever positive?
32:31
Can that really be true? Sometimes on Instagram people be
32:34
like, Congrats to the buyer and the seller.
32:36
It's like really? I think one if it's good for
32:39
one, it probably wasn't as good for the other.
32:41
I do remember now what the point I was going to make.
32:42
It feels like we're at a point right now where people are
32:45
ignoring comps and historical sales and paying up more than
32:50
ever because well, I'll be curious to know what your
32:54
perspective on that is. Is is that true that it's done
32:58
more so now and what do you think that why that is?
33:02
I don't know if it's done more so now I, I, I'm inclined to
33:05
believe it is. I just don't have anything
33:07
empirical that I could point to immediately to prove it.
33:10
But anecdotally, it feels like it.
33:12
And there was a Jackie Robinson example last night where APSA
33:16
One sold for more than PSA Fives and Sixes are going for.
33:20
And it was a magnificent copy. It was wonderfully centered.
33:24
I appeal. I appeal I and, and I am a
33:27
champion of the I appeal movement, although it doesn't
33:30
necessarily really have any connections to the way that I
33:32
collect. I think it's such an assertion
33:35
of agency by collectors to, to, to, to express what they value
33:42
and not to sort of passively let a grade or a previous sale or
33:48
anything dictate to them how they collect.
33:51
It's it's taking control and and guiding their collecting
33:55
experience in a way that is just inspiring.
33:59
Honestly, like it, it reminds me a bit of sort of what I aspire
34:03
to be as a collectors that, that I want to find the I want to
34:06
find all the meaning that I can. I want to, I want to, I want to
34:10
approach things from every angle and consider all sides of things
34:15
when I'm trying to build a collection like that.
34:16
That's a big like philosophical thing that I've developed over
34:19
the last few years is like, is comprehensiveness.
34:21
Like like if I ever want to talk about the Michael Jordan 90s
34:24
market, I said I need to know everything that's in it.
34:29
And, and if I don't, and if we don't as a community, then
34:33
that's how things can happen. Like these Michael Jordan 1 of
34:36
ones become obscurities and nobody knows about them and yet
34:39
they're so cool. Like that's kind of a, that's
34:42
kind of like what sort of sparked that as a niche of
34:44
collecting for me was I was like, hey, nobody's thinking
34:46
about these one of ones. And like, there's such a big
34:48
deal in ultra modern and what if I started like researching these
34:51
and talking about these. And then once I decided that, I
34:53
said, well, that I need to know everyone of one of Michael
34:56
Jordan that exists if I want to be able to talk intelligently
34:58
about it. And I haven't quite got there.
35:00
I haven't quite gotten there yet.
35:02
But what I have done over the last two or three years, I built
35:04
a spreadsheet and it has everyone of one of Michael
35:08
Jordan from his NBA license era, which runs through 2910.
35:11
And there's about 570. And I break it down year by
35:15
year. So like that's how you know,
35:16
there's seven in the first year and 65 in the second year and so
35:19
on. And then I also looked at how
35:20
many plates he has and he has roughly 400 printing plates
35:24
during that NBA license era. And then he has roughly 101 of
35:29
ones that are him and another player multiplayer one of ones
35:31
like those are like your exquisite triple logo man's and
35:34
the Kobe dual logo man autograph and stuff like that.
35:37
And so it was only once I did that research, I kind of like
35:41
could feel somewhat confident that I could comprehensively
35:44
describe every Michael Jordan one of one.
35:47
It was only then that I've sort of had the confidence and the
35:49
perspective to like, want to start pursuing these, want to
35:52
start telling the story of them and start thinking about them.
35:54
And I just feel like that the I appeal thing resonates with me
35:57
on that level because essentially what I appeal is
36:00
asserting, among other things, it's like there's X amount of
36:03
versions of this card, copies of this card out there.
36:06
And yeah, the grade maybe can be a helpful instructor here, but
36:11
we need to use our own eyes and our own tastes and our own
36:14
understanding of manufacturing processes and things like
36:17
registration and how car condition of cars when they came
36:19
out of packs and so forth. To sort of say, like among the
36:22
population of these, you know, how many probably had centering
36:25
like this? How how many probably had this
36:28
sharp of registration? How many were this in focus and
36:31
that. And that's even the project that
36:32
Maddie C is is doing with his I appeal website is sort of like,
36:36
let's document all these. Let's get as many images as we
36:38
can and let's kind of like stack these up using our principles as
36:42
collectors and not just, you know, outsourcing our, our
36:45
critical thinking to grading companies.
36:47
And that's not the take away from what grading companies do
36:49
authentication and their technical assessments and they
36:51
have the card in hand and they can inspect it for creases and
36:53
different flaws that maybe don't come through with scans or they
36:56
don't come through without the tools of magnification that they
36:58
have. But, but the I appeal thing is
37:00
like it's, is, is such a movement that just, it just
37:03
resonates with me philosophically.
37:05
The the the ambitions of it are are very similar to what I try
37:08
to do, even though I'm in a totally different era and a
37:10
totally different niche. You mentioned the grade and one
37:14
of those Jordans, the just the two, one of ones from 97 to 98
37:17
is APSA 5. Does that matter?
37:21
It will to the market. It will to the market.
37:24
So it will sell for less because it's.
37:27
A5 If it were contrasted against like a hypothetical PSA 8 of
37:32
itself, you know, the PSA would probably do better.
37:35
And, and and if there were APSA 10, then I think you start
37:39
bringing in even a whole different group of people who
37:42
might not even care that it's a one of one or that what
37:46
historical dimensions that it have.
37:48
They just see the PSA 10 and they're like, I collect PSA 10.
37:51
It's like there's a lot of people who build a sandbox
37:54
around technical grade, especially in 90s where like you
37:56
have just thousands and thousands of these Jordan
37:58
inserts. But if you only look at like the
38:00
highest grade of them, the number starts to become a lot
38:03
smaller, sometimes a few dozen or or less in some of the rarest
38:06
cases. So you would have people who
38:08
play in that like Gem Mint sandbox who might start looking
38:11
at this card too. So like, yeah, as the grade goes
38:13
up, I think it expands the people who might be interested
38:15
in it. But but that's not how it works
38:17
for me. I I want it if it's if it if
38:19
it's a one of one in APSA authentic, I'm that's like the
38:22
peak for me. Yeah I I love PSA one point
38:26
fives with good eye appeal. I would rather have APSA 1.5
38:29
with great eye appeal than APSA five that looks like dog crap.
38:36
Right, well, well, that's the thing too, right, is like kind
38:39
of going back to the aesthetics of the 9798 and how it's not
38:42
different from the platinum medallion version.
38:45
Like if, if this 98, the purple one of one Jordan, if that one
38:49
was like, you know, creased in half or something and it just it
38:52
was lacking eye appeal. That would that would really
38:56
make it even less desirable. But like it looks fine as APSA 5
38:59
from what I can see. Yeah.
39:01
So last question for you, both of these end 24 days from now
39:05
basically the same time it seems like.
39:07
Yeah. How do you, you can't bid on
39:10
both of them. I guess I've never bid on a big
39:12
card, so I don't know how that works.
39:14
You have to choose one, right? You have to pick a favorite.
39:18
Yeah, yeah. I'm so I'm already ruling myself
39:20
out of the purple. I think it's tremendous, but
39:23
that's not one that I'm interested in.
39:25
It's just it's above my pay grade and many other things.
39:29
But but the the first one I am interested in, but it's just
39:33
it's, you know, it's gonna it would, I would need to
39:35
essentially collapse my entire collection.
39:37
I would, I would need to basically trade in almost
39:39
everything I have to be able to get to it.
39:42
And that is assuming that it stays low enough.
39:44
So that's the one that I'm interested in.
39:47
Love the purple, but that's not that's not the one for me.
39:50
And you know, I have to take price into consideration.
39:52
It's like at at that price, that's just not, that's not in
39:56
my collecting lane. But but the platinum is so the
39:59
the the 97 is, is so special just because it is the first one
40:03
of one of Michael Jordan. And and I love the history of
40:05
that. I love the museum label that
40:07
that that that has that that card has.
40:10
So that one captivates me as as a historical artifact that's
40:14
really meaningful to 90s cards, to Michael Jordan cards, to one
40:16
of one cards. But but we'll just have to see,
40:20
man. We'll just have to we'll have to
40:21
see 24 days from now. We'll we'll check.
40:24
Check check my YouTube channel and see if I'm if I've quit the
40:28
hobby. Well, I look forward to that,
40:32
Chris. Thanks for coming on.
40:34
I really appreciate it. And where can people find you on
40:37
YouTube? On YouTube my channel is called
40:41
The Chris Hoge Cast. And then I don't know, I figure
40:45
if you just maybe put Chris Hoge, Hoge being HOJ, which
40:49
stands for House of Jordans, if you just put that into Google
40:52
like Chris Hoge Instagram or Chris Hoge Twitter, that should
40:54
or YouTube, that should get you to me on one of those platforms.
40:58
Cool. All right.
40:59
Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me.