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[SUBSCRIBER BONUS] How Do We Know When to 'Trust' Dreams? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Jung Love, where we generate dream interpretations, answer questions,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: and generally horse around for the benefit of our subscriber community.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Who we appreciate.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Who we very much appreciate. Today we're going to be
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: answering a question, and here we go. I'm reading your book, Dreamwise,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: which is marvelous, by the way. and I came across
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  Speaker 1: a passage where you say dreams don't have superior knowledge
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  Speaker 1: but different knowledge. I'd been thinking that the whole time
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: while reading, and this passage came to me with relief
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  Speaker 1: and clarity. My question is, has there ever been a
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  Speaker 1: time in your life when a dream or series of
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  Speaker 1: dreams seemed to be telling you one thing, but you
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: decided to go against it regardless? If so, what was
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the result? Is it always safe to assume that dreams
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  Speaker 1: are acting in your best interest? Or is there a
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  Speaker 1: possibility that, like an autoimmune disease, causes a person's body
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  Speaker 1: to attack itself? Your psyche can be self-destructive and deceitful.
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  Speaker 1: How do we know when to trust dreams?
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  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thank you for reading our book.
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  Speaker 3: There's a gosh, I'm half like my neurons are firing
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  Speaker 3: in response to this question. So first of all, I
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  Speaker 3: think this issue of like dreams and truth, like in
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  Speaker 3: some sense, dreams always tell the truth, but it's kind
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  Speaker 3: of like which truth, which I think we'll get into
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  Speaker 3: in a minute.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: But, and I believe there may be a quote, like
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  Speaker 3: a pull quote somewhere in the book. I think it's
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  Speaker 3: by Fellini where, where he talks about dreams telling the truth.
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  Speaker 3: It's a great quote anyway. So some of the themes
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  Speaker 3: I hear is like, how do we, first of all,
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  Speaker 3: I think there's this really interesting question of, can the
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  Speaker 3: psyche be self-destructive, which actually would make a great podcast topic.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: But then I think there's also this question of like,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: how do we, what is the relationship we can or
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  Speaker 3: should have with, I want to say, like the perspective
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  Speaker 3: we receive from dreams?
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  Speaker 1: So another way of framing that, which I'm aligned with
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  Speaker 1: you on, is that we have a dream and maybe
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  Speaker 1: the dream involves images, which we recognize from our day-to-day life.
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  Speaker 1: There's always a seduction to literalize the dream. So one lens...
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  Speaker 1: would be the naturalistic view. If this were to happen
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  Speaker 1: in real life, what might that mean to me? But
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  Speaker 1: more often, we're looking at dreams from a symbolic attitude,
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  Speaker 1: which is that the images, the sequence of images, the
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  Speaker 1: feelings are not literal, but actually are translated into a
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  Speaker 1: much broader lens and the dreams in service to maturing
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the personality. And in that regard, I don't know whether
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  Speaker 1: dreams are for or against a conscious ego decision, but
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  Speaker 1: are often commenting on the traits, qualities of the ego,
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  Speaker 1: and particularly if there is something that the unconscious knows
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  Speaker 1: about you. less about the situation, knows about you, which
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  Speaker 1: you're not figuring in or holding in consciousness.
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  Speaker 3: Right. So I'm thinking of an example that maybe we
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  Speaker 3: can work our way around. There's an example we give
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  Speaker 3: in the book, and it's, yeah, I think it's in
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  Speaker 3: the Collected Works, and it's that man who had started
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  Speaker 3: off kind of as a peasant and risen up to
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  Speaker 3: be a businessman, and he had this dream that he
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  Speaker 3: was running to catch a train, and he sees the train,
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  Speaker 3: speeding up as it goes around a curve and he
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  Speaker 3: knows that um if the conductor doesn't put the brakes
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  Speaker 3: on the caboose is going to go off the rails
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  Speaker 3: and then it happens and jung interprets that as a
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  Speaker 3: kind of warning and of course like we we do
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  Speaker 3: have warning dreams so if we have a dream like
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  Speaker 3: that joseph i mean i love what you said about
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  Speaker 3: what the unconscious is bringing forward something maybe that that
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  Speaker 3: about us that we're either not aware of or we're
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  Speaker 3: not including into the equation right so Just framing it
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  Speaker 3: like that, Deb, I know you were going to say something.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it raises the whole question, too, of
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  Speaker 2: things like nightmares or, you know, and as you're saying, Lisa,
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  Speaker 2: warning dreams. And we wake up and we go, oh,
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  Speaker 2: my gosh, you know, that's not right.
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  Speaker 3: That was terrible.
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  Speaker 2: But the question is, you know, just as the dream
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  Speaker 2: ego often feels, you know, awful, bad, attacked, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: in the dream. we wake up and our waking ego goes,
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  Speaker 2: that was awful. You know, why would the dream maker
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  Speaker 2: send me such a terrible dream? These are awful images.
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  Speaker 2: This was a nightmare. Versus what is a truth or
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  Speaker 2: a facet of truth that the dream maker is presenting
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  Speaker 2: so that hopefully the waking ego can consider it. And
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  Speaker 2: just as you were saying, Joseph, consider it So in
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  Speaker 2: the dream you were citing where the man has a
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  Speaker 2: dream of this train and it does go off the rails,
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  Speaker 2: rather than just say that was awful, I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: banish this from thought. Take a minute, think about it.
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  Speaker 2: What is it trying to tell you? And consider where
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  Speaker 2: that occurs, if it occurs, how it occurs in your
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  Speaker 2: waking life.
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  Speaker 3: It's not the whole truth.
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  Speaker 2: It's just a different truth.
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  Speaker 3: And I think it's a slight adjustment to the attitude
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  Speaker 3: rather than an instruction. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And dreams can be prophetic because the unconscious is absorbing
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  Speaker 1: much more information than our waking personalities can juggle. So
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  Speaker 1: it may be that the unconscious is seeing a trending
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  Speaker 1: factors coming together that are leading to some inevitable events.
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  Speaker 1: But those are very rare. So I think in general,
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  Speaker 1: it serves for most circumstances to see dreams symbolically. And
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  Speaker 1: there will be exceptions where you may be the kind
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  Speaker 1: of person that receives prophetic dreams. But I think it's
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  Speaker 1: more dangerous to treat dreams as prophetic generally than to
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  Speaker 1: treat dreams as symbolic generally.
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  Speaker 2: I also want to pick up on the analogy. to
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  Speaker 2: difficult or nightmare-type dreams as analogous to an autoimmune disease.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's an analogy that doesn't quite really hold
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  Speaker 2: because our bodies have their faults and foibles, and an
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: autoimmune disease is simply a physiological mistake. rather than something
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  Speaker 2: psychic that is intentional and has a purpose. And difficult
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  Speaker 2: dreams are there to tell us something. And they're really
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  Speaker 2: not quite in the same part of the psyche, I think.
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  Speaker 3: But I heard this questioner ask something a little different.
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  Speaker 3: Not necessarily is a nightmare like an autoimmune disorder, but say,
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  Speaker 3: and Joseph also, I'm going to push against what you're
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  Speaker 3: saying a little bit, because sometimes you have a dream
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  Speaker 3: and you're working with it symbolically, like for example, the
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  Speaker 3: train dream. And you're like, okay, so if I read
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  Speaker 3: it symbolically, it seems like there's a metaphor being worked
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  Speaker 3: here that says that maybe I'm going too fast, right?
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  Speaker 3: And so at that point, what happens if you go, well,
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to disregard that and go full steam ahead.
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  Speaker 3: And to your point, Deb, I mean, like, so I
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  Speaker 3: hear saying like, could the psyche kind of give you
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  Speaker 3: bad advice? I mean, maybe it's telling you to slow
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  Speaker 3: down and that's really not the right thing to do.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that that's a far more difficult question
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  Speaker 3: in some way because, and I don't know that there's
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  Speaker 3: a totally clear answer to it. The one thing I'll
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  Speaker 3: say is that, you know, again, the psyche, the dream
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  Speaker 3: maker is going to bring what's missing, not necessarily like
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  Speaker 3: the prophetic vision from on high, here's what you should do.
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  Speaker 3: And Deb, you made this point and I think it's
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  Speaker 3: so important. Jung was very clear that it's the psyche
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  Speaker 3: who has to respond. So the dream maker's giving you
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  Speaker 3: some little bit of information. It's like you're the boss
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  Speaker 3: and a trusted employee comes and says, hey boss, you
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  Speaker 3: don't know what's going on over here. And the boss
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  Speaker 3: can be like, whoa, I'm really glad I know that.
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  Speaker 3: That's really important information. But the boss may still say,
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  Speaker 3: but we still have to do it this way or
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  Speaker 3: something like that, right? So that's the ego in relationship
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  Speaker 3: with the unconscious. has to use its discernment. And then
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  Speaker 3: I think the final thing I'll say, which I know
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  Speaker 3: is really true for me is sometimes I get a dream,
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  Speaker 3: I'm thinking about it symbolically, and I really am not
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  Speaker 3: sure what psyche is saying. I did a dream incubation
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  Speaker 3: once for a question I was holding and the dream
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  Speaker 3: I got, it was a little fragment. It was not good,
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  Speaker 3: but it was such a fragment. And I really wasn't
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  Speaker 3: sure whether it applied to my question or not. And
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  Speaker 3: I did it. I did the thing. Um, And did
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  Speaker 3: it work out? Not without some problems, but it worked out.
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  Speaker 3: And I would say on balance, I'm glad I did it.
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  Speaker 3: It wasn't, you know, massively destructive in any way. And
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  Speaker 3: I think it was something good in the world. So,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the answer is you can't sort of lean
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  Speaker 3: into the dreams, even when you're working with them symbolically,
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  Speaker 3: you can't assume that they have the right answer. Is
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  Speaker 3: that fair, you think?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I really like your analogy to the boss and
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  Speaker 2: the boss being consciousness and an employee coming and saying, hey, look,
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  Speaker 2: you know, there's a problem over here with et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera. And what does the boss do? The boss
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  Speaker 2: doesn't have to just say, oh, I take your word
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  Speaker 2: for it, and I'm going to go charging in there
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  Speaker 2: and tell those people what for. And neither does the boss,
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  Speaker 2: we hope, just say, oh, my God, I'm not paying
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  Speaker 2: any attention to this disgruntled complainer. I'm so tired of
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  Speaker 2: hearing from him. What we hope the boss does is
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  Speaker 2: to say, I am going to look into it. I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to be curious. I'm going to go talk to people.
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  Speaker 2: And then the boss has to decide. what action, if any,
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  Speaker 2: to take. And that's the role of our waking consciousness,
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  Speaker 2: our waking ego. Look into it, check it out, consider it,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: and then decide. And Jung is very clear that in
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  Speaker 2: the final analysis, it's up to consciousness to understand and
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  Speaker 2: take whatever decisions or action may seem to be in order.
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  Speaker 1: I also think that dreams are rarely giving us instructions.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Become an accountant. Yeah. Don't become an accountant.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a Ouija board. I mean, it
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  Speaker 1: rarely is addressing yes or no questions. So when we ask,
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  Speaker 1: how do we know when to trust dreams? Trust them
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  Speaker 1: in what regard?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Trust them to tell you whether you should turn right
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  Speaker 1: or left. Trust them to decide whether or not you're
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  Speaker 1: going to stay or leave your job. I mean, it
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  Speaker 1: may be that on rare occasion.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: Something is that clear. But generally, you can trust it
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  Speaker 1: to be enlarging your personality.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And you may notice that your choices shift because you
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: have more information about yourself or not.
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  Speaker 3: That's great, Joseph. I really like that. And just to
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  Speaker 3: build on it, just to go back, what I find
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  Speaker 3: is that when I have a dream and I sense
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  Speaker 3: it's important and I really work with it, it takes
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  Speaker 3: me a while to get there. What happens once I
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  Speaker 3: have that click, like I said before, it shifts my attitude.
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't, it doesn't mean that I necessarily do something differently,
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  Speaker 3: although I might, I might make a different choice, but
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  Speaker 3: just like you're saying, Joseph, because I, because I now,
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  Speaker 3: I now like have a different attitude. I know, I
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  Speaker 3: know something. So it's, it's a little, it's a little shift.
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  Speaker 3: It's a little, yeah, it's just a little shift in
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  Speaker 3: one direction or another that helps you go, oh, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I didn't see it that way. I didn't see it
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  Speaker 3: that Now that I see it that way, maybe I'll
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  Speaker 3: do the same thing I was going to do.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: But maybe I'll be like, no, I'm going to do this.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't know that the self is totally aligned
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  Speaker 1: with the ego's agendas. You know, should I invest in
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  Speaker 1: this business? The self may not care whether you invest
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: in that business.
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  Speaker 3: That's right.
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  Speaker 1: So a lot of times when we say I should
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  Speaker 1: trust or don't trust means it was successful based on
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  Speaker 1: my ego's goals versus not successful or painful which i
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  Speaker 1: wasn't figuring in and i think all of us can
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  Speaker 1: say that the self does not avoid putting us in
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  Speaker 1: suffering circumstances when that is in service to our maturation
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  Speaker 1: but a lot of us will say oh this is
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  Speaker 1: a terrible decision because now i'm suffering and it's uncomfortable
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  Speaker 1: yeah if we could change without suffering My goodness, our
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  Speaker 1: growth would be exponential. But the truth is, for most
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  Speaker 1: of us, we need to feel the burn in order
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  Speaker 1: to change our attitudes or conceive of something in a
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  Speaker 1: way that we normally would find strange or distasteful.
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  Speaker 3: That's great, Joseph. That's really true. So it's a very
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: complex question. Thank you for asking it.