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Transcript

Rugby Direct - Episode 198 · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Straight down the Middle of Trumps Guy, try.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: To get inside the game from every end goal. It's
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: News Talks EDB.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Access Solutions, celebrating twenty
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: five years in business. Elliott Smith with me, Liam Napier.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: We are back. I had resolved not to do any
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: podcast in January, and this is the third we are
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: doing on Rugby Direct, a quasi emergency podcast. Once again,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: back in front of each other in the same room
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: for the first time in twenty twenty six. Greetings Liam,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: it has been one heck of an off season.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: It has great to see Elliott of most complexion, a
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: little bit of a tad coming through.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I've been in Melbourne last week. He's a bit of
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: a tanner.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Looking good.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, how's your back in?
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's improving, it's improving. Out of sight, how was
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: your camping holiday? Some rudely interrupted by various things.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll send the check to Zilla Rugby interrupting that
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: that excursion. Yes, the phone was running hot.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: But it was well, let's touch on that first and foremost,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: because we haven't spoken to you about your reaction to
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Scott Robertson leaving his post sacked as All Blacks coach.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's coming on two weeks almost now, but
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: you were the first person to break the story around
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: the review and the nature of the feedback that was
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: being given to Scott Robertson and the fact that there
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: had to be some decisions made. We'll less than twenty
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: four hours later there was a big decision made and
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Scott Robinson was out as the All Blacks coach. What
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: was your reaction as that popped up and you're in
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: box and Wayhi.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, things move quickly, didn't they. I guess if you
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: go back to the back end of last year, it
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: was very evident, certainly from what I was hearing about
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: discontent within that camp, and that came through loud and
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: clear in the review from I think it's sixteen to
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: twenty players that were interviewed by that panel, and look,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: i'd heard at the back end of last year it
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: was fifty to fifty where the razor would keep his job.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I probably at that point expected him to be given
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: more time, and that's I think the emergency pod we did.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: We touched on maybe there would be changes to the
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: assistance because that's the route that we'd seen explored previously
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: with Ian Foster. And then we had the breaking news
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: from Rory in the Irish Independence that Razor was gone,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: and I think there was widespread surprise. First and foremost,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: that's such a decision, such a decisive decision had been taken,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: and now they're on the hunt for a new coach.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I guess if we touch on just the decision first
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: and foremost, do you think it's the right one?
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I think it probably is. I think they had to
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: make a decision given what you're presented in your column,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: given what we had observed on that end of year tour,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: and given the strides that hadn't been made in this
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: all Black team over the last two years. You know,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: David Kirk used the word trajectory a lot in that
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: media conference when he announced it, and it's hard to
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: disagree with him. You couldn't see the trajectory that they
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: were on a path forward to win the Rugby World
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Cup twenty twenty seven, and with the Rugby's Greatest Rivalry
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Tour looming this year. They have not a lot of
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: runway to get things right and it felt like I
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: don't know how much the Rugby Wild Cup drawer played
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: in it as well the fact that they might land
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: a quarter final against South Africa, but it just felt
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: like they had to make a decisive decision and with
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: this would have come under previous New Zealand rugby management.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but I think it's hard to mount
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the case for Scott Robertson to have stuck in the job.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: You know, you'd have to be pretty ardent, you know,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: long time backer of Scott Robertson, and he's got a
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: few don't get me wrong, But I think they ultimately
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: probably have made the right call.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Now you've left the eyepatch at home, so they haven't I.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Have indeed now whether the right call has be made,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: you know, will only be told in you know, the
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: fullness of time, by the time we get through this
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: year and in twenty twenty seven. But on the surface
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: of it, I actually don't mind the call from New
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Zealand Rugby to go this actually isn't good enough. The
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: all Black ra brand that are breaking in the dollars
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: we need, but also they need to be winning it
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: a certain percentage, so I don't mind the ruthless call
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's been a lot made of player power, player revolts,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: whatever you want to term it, but I think it's
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: largely has come to pass that Razor lost the dressing
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: room and New Zealan Rugby clearly felt like he wasn't
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: going to get it back, and that's subtle. Tweaks, whether
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: they be assistants or mediation or whatever it might have been,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: could have ended that, and that's why they arrived at
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: this resolution. I think it is probably the right call,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: but it's now cumbersome on them to come up with
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: something better, isn't it. And the dominoes are really falling.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Tony Brown is committed to the spring Box, to the
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: World Cup, Joe Schmidt is committed to the Wallabies, and
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: so we're at a situation really Verncotta is going to Australia.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: I don't think he would necessarily would have ever been
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: the head coach, but I think he was probably in
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: the discussions to be part of a wider coaching team maybe,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: And so you're pretty much down to a two horse race.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph. I think one of the
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: other big points about this is it's not just on
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: field performance and the trajectory you mentioned and the lack
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: of improvements and the worries about what's to come, but
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: I think fundamentally the culture within that team wasn't good. Yeah,
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: And whether that be from an inclusive nature, whether that
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: be communication, trust, there was a real breakdown in relationships.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There was similar things that I've heard, and I
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: think we touched on it when we did the emergency
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: pot a couple of weeks back with you that there
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: had been in previous regimes a lot of player empowerment
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to drive a lot of the game plan basically was
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: handed off round about Thursday to the team, right, the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: coaches had done their job. Now it's the players to
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: lead us through from Thursday through to the final whistle
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: on Saturday night, And it felt like that had been
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: removed in this regime. You know, obviously coaches are empowered
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: to run things the way they want, but it felt
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: like what coaches and players we used to from the
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: previous environment hadn't been carried over, and it felt like
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the players were feeling that like they didn't have a
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: say in things that they felt that they should have.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the player power for one of a better term
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: is not anything new in a modern sporting world. The
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: players were instrumental in the All Blacks and En Foster
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: retaining his posts through to the twenty twenty three World Cup.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: It's just this was a very different vibe that the
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: complete opposite. Right. They a large number of senior players
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: didn't want to play for Razor effectively and where they
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: went into bat massively for Ian Foster and so one
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: had a positive effect on the head coach and one didn't.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: So and that's two years apart. So that's player involvements.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: Player influence is nothing new. That that wasn't the sole
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: reason for Raiser being pushed out, but I think it
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: was certainly the major driving factor, alongside the on field performance.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: If they'd gone through the last two years and maybe
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: dropped one or two games combined or whatever it might be,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: and there was elements of players being unhappy, they probably
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: would have stuck with him. But you can bind those
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: two things, and I suspect they had a recipe to go,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: we've got to change something here in this All Blacks
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: environment and it was interesting. Rory o'connorho you touched on before.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: He has done some exceptional work on the story out
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: of Ireland, and he did a piece yesterday around how
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: it unfolded, and it suggested that Scott Robertson was surprised
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: by the fact that there been some negative feedback that
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Artie Savia was one of the key people pushing back
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: against the Scott Robertson regime. I guess Artie's role in
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: all this he has been stuck up as a figurehead
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: of this. David was quick to play it down at
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: the media conference when it happened. But where does this
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: leave you know? I guess Artie save going forward in
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: the All Black's environment, given there'll be talks as you
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: reported that maybe you wouldn't come back to the All Blacks.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Rory reported, which is what I've heard as well,
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: that Artie was unhappy on that Northern touring and considered leaving.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: And I had heard that Lard he had explored the
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: possibility of staying with Kobe, of going to Europe potentially
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: and as Rory reporter, which I had heard as well,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: that he was potentially looking at R three sixty. So
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: I think there was a cloud over his All Black
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: future with Razor as coach New Zealand Rugby. Adamant that
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: he is contracted to twenty twenty seven and that he
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: was always returning home, but I'm one hundred percent certain
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: that he played a role, that he was not alone,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: that a number of senior players are unhappy, and my
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: original report before Razor was pushed out, I also mentioned
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: one senior Blues player declined an invitation to go from
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks fifteen to the All Blacks in their
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: final week in Cardiff, and so that speaks to the
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: wider breakdown in relationships of other players as well. Can
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: you recall another time recent history or all black history
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: when an All Black is said no thanks to joining
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, Bradthorne's probably the closest example, and that was
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: for different reasons back in what the early two thousand,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: tw thousand and one, maybe off the top of my head,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I mean it's been a generation since something like that's happened.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: That was really just a minor sort of thing. I'm
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: sure there were instances, and you know, the pre professional
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: era of things like this, and the coaching role was
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: certainly a lot different in those days. But I think, yeah,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: it's been painted as player power in some quarters. I
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: don't know that it's necessarily true. It was not a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: player of volt necessarily. This was a wide open review.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: The questions that they were asked were fairly wide in
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: terms of the they were narrow focused in terms of
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: trying to find a certain answer. And this is what
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: it's come back with. It was one or two players,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: they would have been able to, I'm sure, mediate that
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: out and figure out a way forward. When you've got
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: you know, a whole lot of players in one environment,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: it paints an unhappy culture and something needed to be done.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And to David Kirk he said it wasn't the captain's call,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: but I'm sure he very much had a big influence
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: that this is the decision that had to be made.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Oh massively, and particularly given the state that a state
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: of flux that New Zealand Rugby is in, without a
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: permanent CEO, without a chief commercial officer, without with their
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: high performance manager leaving as well. So Kirk is effectively
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: running the show, just as Hamish mcclennan did across the
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Ditch in Australia and Yeah, the New Zealand Rugby board
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: would have had to sign off and had final say
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: on any of these decisions, but I think Kirk is
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: fully carrying the can and as mentioned before, it's now
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: on him and New Zealand Rugby to come up with
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: a more complete, compelling package as an all black coaching team.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: The other the other point, which hasn't really been touched
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: on a lot, is this is going to cost New
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby. I think my understanding is as part of
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: the severance agreement, raised signed a non disclosure agreement, so
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: I can't speak about it, not just him, but others
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: as well, and I think they paid him out at
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: least a year salary. And it also raises questions about
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: his assistants. And we know that whoever comes in as
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: head coach, we'll be able to decide their assistance. But
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: for me right now, I think Jason Ryan I would
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: retain him. If Jamie Joseph comes in. I think Scott
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Hansen would be potentially likely to stay on. He worked
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: with him in Japan. Not sure how that would go
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: down with some of the players, but I think that
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: the assistants would be very nervous right now Brent Hall.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I think Bryn Hall Brent Evans did a great job
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: with the line out this year, but a few of
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: those assistant coaches right now that you're very nervous about
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: your coaching future.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Steve Lancaster said yes. And in the media
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: conference's business as usually. I suppose it has to be
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: because they've got to communicate with super rugby clubs around
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and various things and how much minutes players can have
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: in preseason and what they're looking for. But people are
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: gone on why haven't they got rid of the assistants
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: as well. We'll just take a step back for a
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: second and go what if the new coach comes in
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: and goes, yep, I'll have those two, but I don't
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: want those too. If you got rid of them all
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: in one fell sweep when Razor lyft, you're basically paying
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: out these people and then bringing them back in. So
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: this is the only way that New Zealand Rugby could
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: have gone about it. But I think it's squeaky bum
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: time for those assistants because they're in a state of flux,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: not knowing if they'll be employed in a couple of
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: months time. Do you if you're an assistant. Do you
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: go and try and get on one of the tickets? Now,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: do you call up one of the prospective coaches and
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: plead your case and put your case forward. I don't
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: know how this all works, but it's going to be
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: fascinating to see how that parts unfolds, isn't it?
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: It is all right, let's get into it then. So
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Jamie Joseph or Dave Rennie, as far as I'm concerned,
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: those are the That is pretty much it.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Vin quote. It might have been a dark horse, but
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: he's going to the Reds, which will touch on again
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: in a minute. But I think those are the only
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: two options. I mean, there are others that are eligible
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: under the criteria. You're Warren Gatlands of.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: The World, Yeah, Karen Crowley, Wayne p. Vack, Robbie Deans essentially,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Tana Pat Lamb.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Made see Antony and Foster.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But when you boil it down, I think at
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: this point, no one is sure whether Dave Rennie is
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: going to definitely apply, And a point I'm going to
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: make he is if he doesn't want the all Blacks job,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: I think he could pretty much walk into the Blues.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: But let's just say they both apply. Who you given
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: the job to, I.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Think I'm going to give it to Dave Rennie. I
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: think Rennie has the better body of work. He was
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: highly regarded by the Wallabies in terms of what he
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: was delivering there. There were a number of players unhappy
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: when he was kicked out for Sirihdi Jones a couple
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: of years ago. And I think you look at what
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: you know. It's hard to judge Japan's rugby, but he's
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: doing well with Koba over there. Ardie Savia is currently
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: playing with Kobe and he's well respected for what he
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: did with the Chiefs alongside Wayne Smith in twenty twelve
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: to twenty thirteen and transform that franchise into winners. Now
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Super Rugby as we're seeing, it's not the be all
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: at indoor. But I think he's coached in different environments.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: He coached with Glasgow, he coached, he's got internationally's top fourteen.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I think he's got that experience. Dave Rennie to come
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: and work with the All Blacks, I think he'd be
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: a very very astute head coach. I think Jamie Joseph
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: has some positives, but I and you look at what
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: he did with Japan, I would throw out probably the
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: last two years of what he did there. Japan was
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: under COVID restrictions, way behind the rest of the world
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: for far too long. Well depends on how you view
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: it in Japan, but they were behind, you know, the
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: COVID curtain for considerable amount of time and didn't come
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: out of that too long. They left their World Cup
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: planning to l I think nine had seventeen tests between
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: the twenty nineteen World Cup ending of the twenty twenty
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: three World Cup, so they didn't have a lot of preparation.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: But I think he did well with Japan. But I
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: think I'd still go Dave Rennie for his body of work.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: What say you, yep?
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: I agree for a number of reasons, and one of
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: them is when Dave Rennie came into the Chiefs, he
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: completely cleaned out that roster, took over from n Foster,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: brought him the likes of Aaron Cruden from one or
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: two and a number of others, and brought that team
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: together in a year alongside Wayne Smith and Tom Coventry
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: and others, and built a culture, took them back to
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: their multi roots, had a real clear identity. He knows
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: how to bring teams together. He's got great relationships with
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: a number of coaches and players, so Dave Rennie would
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: be my preference. The other thing I think about Jamie
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Joseph two points one Tony Brown not being available as
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: a massive hit. Whenever there's been great success, it's been
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: with Tony by his side, and I think he's a
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: real foil, one of the best attacking coaches in world rugby.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: I also think Tony Brown post twenty twenty seven would
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: work with anyone, not just Jamie because he's always a
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: line with Jamie Joseph public now yeah, yeah, but he
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: I think he would work with anyone. I've also heard
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: a few things which I think he's on rugby aware of,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: about Jamie and his coaching style and running through a
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: number of different assistant coaches. When you look at Kendrick
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Lynn leaving and going to Argentina, Tom Donnelly going to
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: the Wallabies, Dave Dylan, There's been a number of others,
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: So maybe that speaks to an abrasive style and I
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: think Jamie's a very strong personality. Maybe that's what the
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: All Blacks need.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Now, how many assistant coaches have the All Blacks coaches
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: run through in the last few years exactly.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: I also did perk my interests. This quote from Victor Mattfield,
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: who was involved with Japan. He said, one thing I
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: must say from the Japanese players, they weren't too happy
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: with Jamie Joseph at the end. Why that is it
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: sounded like he was very strict and very set in
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: his ways. But he understands in his own culture he played,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: he looks like a rugby man. So it will be interesting.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: And I think from what I've heard about Jamie coming
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: back to the High and as years yet, he's still
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: quite old school in his approach to training. You know,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: expects players to go through the ringer, you know, really
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: works players hard. Maybe that's what the All Blacks need.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe they do need a bit of a shake up,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: a real strong man at the helm. But I think
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: there are potential red flags.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: There is, of course, no guarantee that Davenny applies for
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: this gig. He's off contract with Kobe. They could finish
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: as in May. Yeah, they could offer him a wheelbarrow
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: full of cash.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Wayne Smith Stane back to Kobe as well.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: All right, that's where you're going. Yeah, Okay, he may
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: not put his head in the ring, in which case
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: he may put his head and hope he does, but
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: he may not, in which case you're probably only left
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: with Jammie Joseph. How comfortab would you be with that?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: And it would it mean you Jean had done the
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: right thing in acting Scott Robertson. If they were left
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: with a one horse.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Race, I think it's a floored plus a flawed process.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: If you have the All Blacks coaching job and only
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: one person applying, I don't think that would be true.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: But look, we've already had some big names Schmidt one
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: of them rule himself out. In the ideal world, you
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: have all the best candidates available.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Should they have opened it up to overseas applicants.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind seeing a foreign assistant, But I'm still
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: at the point where I want a New Zealander coaching
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks's head coach.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: But is that high performance? That's my question to you.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: They talk about wanting to, you know, the All Blacks
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: a strong high performance brand if the best coach available
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: is an overseas coach.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: When I think about overseas coaches that I would want involved,
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking Jacques Nebana, Ronan O'Gara potentially, but he's got
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: some real volatility around his sideline behavior and.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Lar Rochelle and not playing that well at the moment
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: towards referees.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Those guys I would really think would add a lot
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: of value in a coaching team. But I still think
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: my personal preference it might be outdated, but I do
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: agree that it should be in Hissigner at the stage.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's not like the huge amount of
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: candidates from overseas that you'd go, yep, we'll have him.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: You know, Russi Erasmus isn't going to leave the spring
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: books to go coach to the All Blacks, is he?
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And I can see I think a foreign assistant would
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: be helpful in the fact that New Zealand Rugby have
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: got a little bit stuck in their ways of wanting
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: to play this all black style. I think Scott Robinson
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: was a victim of this as well, not playing to
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: the way that rugby is ruled at the moment in
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: referee playing the way that they want the game to
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: be refereed. And you think about the high ball and
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the stuff that would rugby is implemented, which is absolutely mad
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: the game you know, the the escort rule and various
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: other things that they've implemented that has made the game absolutely,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: you know, an abomination at times to watch. But this
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: is the way it's been played, and you've got to
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: play to the way that it's been you know, refereed
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: at the top level, not the way that you want
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: to play. And there's got to be a bit of
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: pragmatism I think around that. I think a foreign coach
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: could help that.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in any coaching team it's good to
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: have challenging ideas. If you think about Hanson, Smith and Henry,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: they are all head coaches in their own right with
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: vast experience, and their whole mantra was disagree and commit
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: and I think, well, a the fact new zom Rugby
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: has come out and said we want someone with international
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: experience is saying we should have had that in the
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: first place. That's what was clearly lacking. And I think
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: it has been born out that there wasn't enough challenging
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: ideas in that coaching team because it was a very
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: tight knit clique between Scott Hansen, Scott Robertson and Jason Ryan,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: and they'd all coached together previously in the same Crusaders environment.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: So I think in any coaching team you need to
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: have people challenging you and foreign ideas. Different coaching environments
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: is very beneficial. And look, when you look at Jamie
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Joseph and Dave Rennie, they both have that they've both
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: been around, they've both had a lot of experience, so
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: they will bring that. But what about this? Could they
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: work together?
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Possibly? There was mentioned to me when the first happened
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: that Scott Robinson left that maybe they could form a
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: coaching team together. Who would be the head coach? Maybe
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Rennie is the head coach, Jamie Joseph looks after the Fords,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: you bring in a couple of other people potentially that
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: they may present that to New Zealand Rugby. Is that
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: the best way forward? That would essentially would be one
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: horse race to be one and a half horse race.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: But maybe that's the combo that New Zealand Rugby would
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: go for the best of both of us. Could they
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: work together? You know, head coaches are often very headstrong.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Some coaches don't like going back to being assistants. Some
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: coaches are better being assistants.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: And we saw that probably with Liam McDonald not getting
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: the influence that he wanted after being head coach at
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: the Blues.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: And you're rights. When you become a head coach, you
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: get used to that autonomy and that influence, that power
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: of making those decisions.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Someone who did that quite well I think was Tanaumo actually,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: albeit he's now back as a head coach with more
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Ona Pacificer, but he went from being the Blues head
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: coach before Liam McDonald came on to switching with Leam
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: became the defense coach at a very good job there
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: from what I understand, and was kind of built for that.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: And now he's back at one of Pacific and doing
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: some good work there. But yeah, some coaches just work
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: better as being assistants and some coaches work better as
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: being head coaches, and maybe they can come together and
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: form a super team.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't see Jamie Joseph sliding into an assistant
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: coaching role.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Probably not Van kode as a touch a couple of times.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Heading to the Reds in twenty seven to twenty eight
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: to two year deal leaving the Blues behind. This come
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: as a bit of a surprise to you.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Not the fact that he's leaving, but the destination.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Is this a backward step for Vern or a
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: sideway step or a how would you categorize it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: I think it's a good move because I think it's
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: a very desirable position being based in Brisbane, great city,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: and I think the Reds have a ceiling that hasn't
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: been met yet. If you think about where Brad Thorne
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: took them, he really struggled less Kiss Kimen and has
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: improved them and I think they've got improvement yet. They've
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: still got a pretty good roster if you can get
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: that forward pat going forward. They've got some really talented
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: backs and Vern has shown an ability to come in
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: and have immediate results, delivered the Blues their first title
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: in twenty one years and has made in the season
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: at the Helm. Whether his star was going to suit
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: the Reds is probably a big questions, probably a long
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: away from the way that les Kiss has them playing. Yeah,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I think Vern this will be his third year at
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: the Blues, and I think he signposted to them. This
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: has been about four months in the making from what
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: I understand, and that he Vern had verbally agreed to
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: the Red's job prior to Razor being sacked, So that's
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: one reason why he won't contest the All Blacks coaching job.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: I also heard it's unconfirmed that's Razor applied for the
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Reds gig, but was pretty late in the piece, right,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: So whether that's true or not on one hundred percent sure,
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: But one trusted source mentioned that to me, So.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Is he a go for the Blues job?
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that would be almost Dan carter esk, wouldn't it.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Cartera never took the field. No, Grandma said no.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure how the good people of the
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: mainland seeing Razor and a Blues polar What.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: About you with the Verns of the Reds. Obviously he'll
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: see out the season before moving over there, and Liz
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: is going to the Wallabies, so there's you know, Dick
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Cheers moving around. What do you see about Vern's move
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: to the Reds?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Is it good? I think it's a smart move for
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a little bit of a surprise to
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: me because I kind of felt like he was probably
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: close to just you know, drawing a line under his
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: professional career, maybe having crack at the All Blacks potentially,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: but it felt like he, you know, he's got the
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: farm down south and maybe must sit down south in
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: the middle of the North find and maybe that was
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: time to draw a line under there. But as you see,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Queensland's a very desirable location. Maybe one last challenge before
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: he retires. He's ticked off the Blues job. I mean,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: he's really got nothing left to prove in terms of
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: club coaching, has he And you know, but I just
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: don't know that. This feels like a challenge that doesn't
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: need to take on necessarily. But I don't mind him
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: taking it on nonetheless.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I spoke to Vern this morning. He said he's
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: motivated by the fact that Australian Super Ragged teams have struggled, right,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: They've been an anchor on the competition. Really, it's been
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: twelve years since an Australian team won Super Rugby I
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: think twenty fourteen. The Warata has won twenty eleven, the
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Reds last one a title. So there's he's motivated by
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: that challenge and it'd be great for the competition. What
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: if they win this year, if he could go there
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: and making it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: What if they win this year and there is no challenge,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: if Liz Kiss leads into the Promised Land, he's just
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: going to build on that. You can the Brumby's win
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: or the Force win this year and what if the
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Force went your life saving him when this year and
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: an Australian team.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Has you do love a rogue pack?
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Well, well we'll get into our Super Rugby preview in
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks time. No, yeah, don't begrudge the move.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I think it is slightly backwards, maybe from Vancotta, but
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: look they're getting a good coach, that's for sure.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it creates a lot of intrigue back here.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: But because the Blues is open now and I think
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: internally Paul Tito's quite highly regarded, You've got potential of
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Dave Rennie. Under previous managements, the Blues went after Rennie
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: and missed outs. When I wrote that story that a
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Formature executive told me I was pissing on on my
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: corn flakes because I wrote the story on the day
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: of a Blues game. It's a little fun and games well,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: and then yeah, Razor or whoever else. I think the
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Blues is a very desirable coaching position as well, isn't it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: It is absolutely and there is a pathway the sort
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: of to higher honors in terms of an All Blacks coaching job.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Although you're unlikely to go straight from super Raby now
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: to coaching the All Blacks. You're kind of having to
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: come back from overseas experience to coach at superbe level
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: being going to the All Blacks. But it's a it's
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: a it's a job in a big market and you know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: fashionable team that will be appealing to too many I'm sure.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, some big personalities potentially to manage. I think that
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: we will see quite a bit of turnover with that
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Blues team in the next couple of years. If you
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: think about potentially guys like Dalton, Papa, Lee, Boden, Barrett, Riquewanny,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: some of those senior Blues players probably moving on in
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: the next couple of years, so maybe the next gen
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: you know, someone to bring through the next generation.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, just make sure we don't personally anyone's call flakes
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: this time around.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: It doesn't sound very appetizing.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully no one's listening to that over the breakfast.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: We will leave it there for Rugby Direct come back
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks. I've said this before, but
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: pending no other big news for a bit of a
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: superb preview on the eve of the season that's.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: All right, and just get on the cane chains. It's
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: coming home this year yet, is it. It's all it's
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: all coming together.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about that. We will see in
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks and see where exactly I've got
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: the canes in my ladder.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: I'm surprised you didn't tip Rob Penny for the All
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: Blacks coaching job. Actually he's just.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: An allergy unto the criteria. But you know, they couldn't
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: find a bit of man. I wouldn't have thought to
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: take on that man to right. We'll see in a
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: couple of weeks. Thanks to Mark Kelly, take next time
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: on Right good Night.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: For more from News Talk st B, listen live on
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
• 30:25
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