Latest / Gospel Talks Podcast / #103 - But vs. Yes, And: How to Share the Truth Without Starting an Argument

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#103 - But vs. Yes, And: How to Share the Truth Without Starting an Argument · Gospel Talks Podcast

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  One of the neatest things I've ever seen in my life,
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  I was at an exchange seminar, and Jeff announces this exercise where we're
• 0:08
  all going to stand in a circle.
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  We're going to have a conversation using the word but for the starting word
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  of every comment back and forth.
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  And then we had a different conversation,
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  and we were told to use yes and.
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  And the difference was mind-boggling.
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  I remember at the seminar, I wrote this down and I thought.
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  This has got to be a Gospel Talks podcast episode one of these days.
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  And so here we are. We're finally going to talk about this exercise.
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  And as strange as it sounds, I promise you,
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  you're in for a treat, but versus yes and.
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  Welcome to Gospel Talks Podcast,
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  where we help Christians all over the world become more effective
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  in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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  My name is George Binoca, and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,
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  the author and founder of The Exchange.
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  Jeff, how are you doing?
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  Doing good. I am excited that our conversations with Jesus is just about finished
• 1:00
  and ready to print and yeah, we're we're getting a lot of things done these days.
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  Yeah, I saw the email that Anna is about to send out and it's got the
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  two covers of volume one and volume two.
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  I think that's really exciting.
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  I know you're working on other things as well.
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  you know, some other things regarding Living the Exchange.
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  We're really excited to announce those as soon as we're ready to do that.
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  But very exciting about what God is doing in the ministry,
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  some exciting announcements in that newsletter that's going out here soon.
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  And if you're not signed up for a newsletter,
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  you can do so on our website.
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  Or you can email me at george at exchangemessage.org and we can get you plugged in.
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  But God is opening some doors with some Christian networks that are giants,
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  let's just say, and we're very excited about all that.
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  Well, without further ado, I just want to start with the exercise itself,
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  Jeff. I mean, you do this thing at seminars,
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  people have you know, have people experience the difference between this
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  but and yes and
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  What are you trying to help people see when you do that?
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  I let me if you don't mind, let me go back and just kind of give a picture
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  of what that looks like so that people can understand the the exercise itself.
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  basically we just invite people to tell a story with each person
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  around the circle giving one sentence of the story.
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  And each we don't really tell them this is a contrast yet.
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  We just tell them tell the story.
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  And the only rule is, it can be about anything you want to.
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  The only rule is you have to start every single sentence after
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  the first sentence with the word but.
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  And then we tell them, boy, that was great.
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  You guys did a great job. but I I I think we could do better.
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  So let's try it again. Only we're gonna be a slight rule change.
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  This time we're gonna start each sentence with the words yes and.
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  And we go through that experience.
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  There's a lot of laughter in the room,
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  it's fun. funny stories, that people say some crazy things.
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  but then when it's all said and done,
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  I have everybody sit down and we just begin to evaluate what just happened to us,
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  and we begin to ask the question:
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  this the yes and story and
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  And the butt story, what was the differences between the two?
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  What what did you perceive as different?
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  And we're just recognizing that just simply a mindset at the beginning
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  of what we say changes the the whole thrust
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  of of the conversation itself.
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  And so that's that's really the intent is helping people to recognize
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  the the mindset of how we approach a conversation.
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  Changes the conversation.
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  it's one of the things that I think is a huge golden nugget in giving
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  the exchange is is the art of conversation.
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  And this is an aspect of that.
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  I got to observe it, so I think I I have my own personal answer
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  to this next question, but why is butt so powerful in a conversation?
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  It's such a little word, but when somebody uses that instead of
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  yes and it changes the whole tenor of the conversation.
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  What actually happens between two people that you've observed
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  in these exercises when they're using this kind of conjunction?
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  And and I think the key is not that we're talking about a specific word.
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  We're really talking about a mindset.
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  And the word contradicts. And so I heard what you said,
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  but I've got it something totally different.
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  I wanna I wanna say the opposite.
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  And it puts us in a I I I'm saying something different than you are.
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  I'm kind of
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  it it there's lots of pieces to it.
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  I want my will over your will.
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  I want what I have to say is probably more important than what you have to say,
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  what I have to say is right, what you have to say is wrong.
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  I mean, there's all different kinds of things that that we're communicating,
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  but the mindset is not the word.
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  The mindset is I've got to and you know,
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  say what I have to say, I have to be right,
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  all the different things that come in.
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  Hmm. I I think this is where it gets interesting for Christians.
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  we quickly feel the need to correct somebody.
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  we we quickly feel the need to interject,
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  argue, you know, is that what is that really about in in your experience?
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  Is it about truth or desire for truth?
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  Because that's a good thing, or
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  Is it just because we need to be right?
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  Yeah, and I think that sometimes it is truth.
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  In other words, I I was thinking about some specifics that come
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  up in real conversations. And I know you probably have some questions you'll
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  ask me about that in a moment.
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  But when I'm in a conversation and someone and I ask the question,
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  who would you say Jesus is? And and they tell me,
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  well, he was a good man, he was he he he was the best teacher in the world.
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  I can immediately hear in my brain,
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  no, you're wrong. I mean, that that's not who he was.
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  and and there's a a by a piece of me that is all about truth that I've
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  got to get the truth out. Jesus is God in the flesh.
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  But if I stop and think about what they really said,
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  it they didn't say anything.
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  He is a good man, the best man that ever lived.
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  He is
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  Mm.
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  the best teacher that ever lived.
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  And so if I can say yes, and then instead of contradicting what they said,
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  I said, Man, you and I are on the same page here.
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  Let me talk about this, Jesus.
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  Hmm. Hmm.
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  And and we're
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  we're bringing a person to our point of view,
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  we're being able to s help them see truth without a contradiction,
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  without a
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  I disagree with you moment. And it's it it it is about truth.
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  but it isn't about finding something that person said that was wrong.
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  I I feel like that's really where we're messing up.
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  We're we're so keyed in with truth that there is that I gotta stand for truth
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  and I gotta stand.
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  hard. and I do think that there's a piece of that that's truthful
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  and righteous and good. But like you said,
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  there is the human side of it in which I I need to be right in this situation.
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  And that's that's not healthy.
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  That's never gonna be healthy in a conversation.
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  Yeah, I I agree with you. you can be good at truth and bad at love.
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  And that's one of the things that First Corinthians thirteen talks
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  Mm-hmm.
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  about is you can have this dichotomy where you think it's better to be good
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  at truth and it's okay to be bad at love,
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  where in reality Jesus says you must be good at both.
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  You must be Christlike in both.
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  you know, I even remember from Matthew sixteen,
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  Peter
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  When confessing that Jesus is the Christ,
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  Christ responds to him after his confession.
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  Blessed are you, Simon Barjona,
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  for flesh and blood has not shown this unto you.
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  But my Father who's in heaven,
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  God is the one who reveals truth,
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  reveals
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  Yeah.
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  himself to people. we are just sowing the seed.
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  And it's easy to think that we are actually the lawyer in the courtroom,
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  but that's not really our job.
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  way above our pay grade.
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  Absolutely. And
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  you were you were talking about having truth and loving.
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  And another way of saying that is in John one,
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  Jesus is grace and truth. I mean he he is the law personified.
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  I mean he kept every part, but he brought with him grace
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  Hmm. Mm.
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  enabling. And I I think that if we're going to be Christ like.
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  We've got to carry both that grace and truth mindset with us when we talk to people.
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  Yeah, spot on. Now, I had a thought come in my mind when I
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  was watching this exercise happen.
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  So I want you to help me understand something about saying yes and because
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  I could kind of play devil's advocate or could see a Christian hearing this
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  and thinking, wait a minute, I I'm not gonna say yes to something that's wrong.
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  So what does yes and mean? What are we agreeing with?
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  What aren't we agreeing with?
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  Yeah, and I think again, it's not the specific words we're saying,
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  it's the way we go about speaking with people.
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  So here here is another one that comes up in a regular conversation.
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  I asked someone, do you believe that this verse that says that the blood
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  of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sins?
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  Do you believe that that means
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  All of your past sins. And usually they'll think about that for a little while
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  and say, Yeah, I I guess it does.
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  And then I'll ask them, so what about the stuff you haven't done yet,
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  but you know you you're going to do?
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  What about those sins? And often people will say,
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  Well, no, I mean it can't be that because I haven't even done them yet.
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  And
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  Hm.
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  that's a that's another one of those moments in which I have
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  to correct them slightly.
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  Mm.
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  having said
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  that, if I start with but, then it's it's like you're wrong.
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  Let me tell you how i I'm right.
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  that's a moment in which if we are careful,
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  we can help them see the truth without necessarily fighting them,
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  without necessarily disagreeing with them.
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  And I yes, I totally understand what you're saying.
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  I mean, we haven't even done those.
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  How can I be forgiven for something I haven't done?
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  And then I say, but let me ask you a question.
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  How many of your sins were future when Jesus
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  Mm.
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  died 2,000 years ago? And just helping
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  Mm-hmm.
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  them think through the process.
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  And the real key here, George,
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  is that I'm actually helping them know that I'm listening to them,
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  that that I'm not just trying to get my spiel across.
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  I'm not just trying to say.
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  my side of the conversation, but I'm listening and I'm comprehending what they're
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  saying. So the yes is really more a I'm listening
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  and I'm getting and I understand what you're saying.
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  And let me take that just a little further.
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  And so that yes and is is not the same thing as I I totally agree
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  you are right in every aspect.
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  We're just simply letting them know I'm listening well.
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  I understand what you're saying.
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  Let me add another thought here that I think would clarify things.
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  I I'm right with you on that, Jeff.
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  I often respond when people even when they make a statement,
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  I still respond, that's a great question.
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  here's what the Bible says. Because I think what you're getting at there
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  a little bit is, we have to answer it with God's words,
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  not our opinions. That's where the argument can start.
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  And but sounds like I'm about to argue my viewpoint versus that's a great question.
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  Here's what the Bible says is
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  Taking me and you out of the equation and bringing God in.
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  and I think that's key. But you know,
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  h I think for the sake of the audience,
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  I think could we actually just demonstrate this with a real evangelism conversation
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  a little bit? let's say somebody says,
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  I don't believe Christianity because Christians are hypocrites.
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  What would the typical butt response sound like?
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  And then how might yes and take the conversation somebody d somewhere different?
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  Yeah. I I think I can easily say yes to that because frankly,
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  Christians are hypocrites sometimes.
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  So it it's it's not hard for me to understand the problem that
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  a person has because he's literally judging Christianity by Christians he knows.
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  And I he's probably not being totally fair,
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  but I do understand what he's saying.
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  So I think it's pretty easy to say
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  I understand sometimes when I watch certain people live their lives,
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  and frankly, even me, I don't always live consistent,
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  but that doesn't mean, and then began to help them understand that though Christians
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  are imperfect, the the the Christ that we follow is perfect,
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  and ~
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  Mm.
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  the world we live in is a fallen world,
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  we still live in fallen bodies.
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  but what we really want to know is can Christ help you with the needs that
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  you have in your life and specifically with the need that you have to
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  be able to have a relationship with God So helping a person by literally,
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  I think in this particular situation,
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  I can agree with them, but then go on to say that that doesn't stop
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  me from trusting in in Christ just because I am imperfect or because
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  the people I know are imperfect.
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  you've probably heard this illustration.
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  I can say I I looked at a guy or I was sitting next to a guy that told
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  me he'd taken a bath in the morning,
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  but frankly, he still smelled bad.
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  And I just don't believe in soap anymore.
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  And you know, the the fact is the problem was not the soap,
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  the problem was the user. And ~ I think that
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  Mm.
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  we can help people to be able to see that.
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  I I think the answer though has to start with,
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  I see your point of view. I actually understand your point of view.
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  It it it it makes sense to me.
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  Here's how I see that a little differently that I think can help you.
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  And instead of
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  Yeah.
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  make it and I if you used a word while ago that I think is really important,
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  I don't see my conversations with people about Jesus as a argument or a debate.
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  I see it as
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  me trying to help him see truth that maybe he hasn't seen before.
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  And I think that I have to be gentle with him and recognizing he's seeing what
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  he sees. I have to help him see something different.
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  And arguing with him isn't the way I want to go about trying to help him see.
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  Hm. Yeah, I I think that's excellent.
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  it reminds me of John chapter four with the Samaritan woman at the well.
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  I I think what we're getting at here a little bit is you're finding common ground.
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  You you know, you're finding you're finding
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  Mm-hmm.
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  the place where you can start from the but it's just a launch pad.
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  It's not the permanent place. I think look what Jesus says here.
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  There's women came from f from Samaria to draw water.
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  Jesus said to her, Give me a drink.
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  Common ground, and we're both thirsty.
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  Then in verse 10, Jesus, she says,
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  how is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me,
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  a woman in Samaria, for Jews who have no dealings with Samaritans?
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  Jesus answered, If you knew the gift of God,
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  and who it is that saying to you,
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  give me a drink, you'd have asked him,
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  and he would have given you living water.
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  So again, he's finding the common need,
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  the common ground. and and then he says,
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  She says, Well, where do you get this living water?
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  are you greater than our father Jacob?
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  And he says,
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  Everybody who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
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  but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.
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  He is continually using the com he's not ever batting her down saying,
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  You're just absolutely wrong. You don't know what you're talking about,
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  you're a woman. You know, he doesn't come out and say at the first conversation,
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  hey, by the way, like, you know,
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  you've been married umpteen times and the guy you're with right now,
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  you're living with an immorality.
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  He starts with the stuff where it could bridge the gap.
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  And there is a huge gap. I mean,
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  there
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  There are no two more different people than the Samaritan woman and Jesus
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  who is a Jew and the Son of God and perfect.
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  And so there couldn't be more stark of a contrast.
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  And yet he's using this principle of yes and okay,
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  let's let's find some some common ground here from which we can launch towards
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  the truth. ~
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  Wow, that's so good.
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  and that leads.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  I I
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  I think one of the things you see in Jesus using this yes and approach
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  is hi it's not a technique for him.
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  It's it's
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  Hm.
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  I love this woman. I'm taking pity on her and I want her to see the truth.
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  So I am going to come to her where she is and take her to where she needs to go,
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  as opposed to tell her how stupid she is for believing what she believes
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  and acting the way she acts and whatever else we we do.
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  Jeff, y I think you've seen this i probably especially in your studying
• 16:52
  the gospel of John. Jesus asks questions because he's really interested
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  in what people have to say. He has a way of pulling out and you you
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  you talk about this as well. It much better to be a good question asker
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  and a listener. You're gonna you're gonna get much further in the relationship.
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  and I guess the question I would have for you is why?
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  What does this whole approach teach us about evangelism?
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  Yeah. I think the whole point is we know people don't believe.
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  We know people aren't following Jesus.
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  We're actually making disciples,
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  inviting people to come and follow Jesus.
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  Therefore we have to we have to and I love what Jesus did.
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  He he t he went to where people were and then he brought them to the truth.
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  And that's really the
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  the whole mindset that we at the Exchange try to use in approaching
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  the concept of evangelism is is going to find people where they are
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  and loving them where they are.
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  I I love the Randy Alcorn statement,
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  you know, Jesus loves you just the way you are.
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  He just loves you way too much to leave you there.
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  And
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  Yeah.
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  if if if we can just kind of have that that Jesus mindset of
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  Going and finding people but bringing them to the truth.
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  And it's a gentle walk in which we're bringing them.
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  I it's that old you can't make a horse drink,
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  but you can help him be thirsty so that he wants to drink.
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  And that's really the thought process.
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  So I I love the way this conversation is going because it it's changing
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  the way we think about objections.
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  instead of seeing somebody's objections as something we need to overcome,
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  could we see it as an invitation to better understand the person?
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  I I love that phrase to better understand that person.
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  because when we listen, that's we're literally demonstrating to people that that
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  we're trying to understand you.
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  We I I love you enough to try to figure out a way to understand you.
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  And we are never gonna be able to,
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  you know, we were talking about taking a person from where they are
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  and taking them to
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  where they need to be. We're never gonna be able to do that if
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  we don't understand where they are and what they're thinking.
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  So what does this look like practically for an ordinary Christian?
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  not somebody who's taken an evangelism seminar,
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  somebody who's sitting across from a coworker,
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  neighbor, family member, or friend who says something about God that they completely
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  disagree with. What could they do differently this week?
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  Yeah.
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  I I think in general this is a concept of y living
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  a yes and not a but life. and just it has to it has to start becoming
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  a way of thinking. And I I feel like in a moment like that,
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  so you know, that's really interesting that would say that.
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  How how did you come to that thought process and re-engaging that with
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  a question as a
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  To an act an accusation or a denial.
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  it doesn't, we're still going to get to the same place.
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  We're we're gonna go back to the truth,
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  but we're doing it in a way in which we're having a reasonable conversation,
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  in which both of us have the privilege of sharing.
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  And we're gonna be sharing truth.
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  We're gonna constantly be saying,
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  here's what the Bible says, but we're gonna do it in a way in which we're
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  purposely engaging them and trying to figure out what they're thinking
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  and helping them to see truth.
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  Yeah. Yep. I I I totally agree.
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  i i it's it's gonna become a helpful thing.
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  You're gonna view it as a net positive when they bring up
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  a difference versus viewing it as a negative,
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  which is by the way, why most people I think a lot of people fear evangelism
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  is they fear that evangelism were turned into an argument they can't
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  win and then they let Jesus down.
• 20:41
  And it's not that. i evangelism is a journey you're like you've said.
• 20:45
  put your arm around your friend and you're walking,
• 20:47
  you're introducing them to Jesus.
• 20:49
  You're letting them get to know him as a person.
• 20:51
  So Jeff, if you've had to if you had to boil all this down to
• 20:54
  one principle for somebody who wants to become better at relational evangelism,
• 20:58
  what would you want them to remember from this conversation today?
• 21:01
  What's the one thing you'd want them to take away?
• 21:03
  I think kindness and graciousness.
• 21:04
  I was I was reading this morning in my morning devotions,
• 21:09
  and it talks it's in that verse where it talks about let your speech
• 21:13
  be seasoned with grace, with grace.
• 21:16
  And I I some places talk about being gracious.
• 21:20
  And I I think that there's two different concepts there,
• 21:24
  but both of them are are related.
• 21:26
  The the
• 21:27
  The
• 21:27
  idea of being seasoned with grace is that this is not something I can do by myself.
• 21:32
  I need Christ. And this is part of what I view as Jesus showing himself
• 21:37
  to the world through me, being a kind and gracious person.
• 21:41
  But then there is that thoughtful process of speaking with graciousness
• 21:45
  and always having a kindness about you,
• 21:48
  a gentleness about you. This is the fruit of the spirit.
• 21:51
  This is what Jesus produces in us.
• 21:53
  And rather than having a combative
• 21:56
  spirit, living life with a graciousness and a kindness and a gentleness
• 22:00
  and a patience that that deals with people in a way that frankly we would want
• 22:06
  to be treated. It's kind of the golden rule.
• 22:08
  Yes. Yeah, I I agree. These are barriers that people have in front of them
• 22:14
  on their path to Jesus. And we sometimes run into those barriers with that person
• 22:19
  and feel that's a rejection of us or a message,
• 22:22
  but it's not. And when we listen to that barrier,
• 22:25
  we we listen is not surrendering the truth.
• 22:28
  Listening is loving somebody enough to understand what stands between them
• 22:33
  and the truth and helping them.
• 22:35
  get over that,
• 22:37
  running into barriers means you're on track.
• 22:40
  And probably the more barriers and resistance you run into,
• 22:43
  the closer you are to the target.
• 22:45
  And so that just comes with charging the gates of hell.
• 22:49
  so that's I I think a great way to look at it for the audience.
• 22:54
  And for those of you that have been listening,
• 22:55
  we hope this has been helpful to you.
• 22:57
  Well, pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth
• 23:02
  laborers. We hope this episode has been a blessing to you.
• 23:05
  If it has, please share it with somebody
• 23:07
  We thank you guys. We love you guys for your support.
• 23:09
  We'll see you next week.