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Ending Poverty in California and Beyond · We Can Do Better

• Fran Quigley: Welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. I'm your host, Fran Quigley. I'm a law professor, and I go to court every week with my students, eviction court, where we represent some of the millions of people in the United States who are facing the loss of their homes. Many of our clients and way too many other folks are also forced to skip filling prescriptions and they often go hungry, despite living in the richest nation in the world. We can do better. Devon Gray: So Fran Quigley: Other countries already do far better, and the US has often done better in the past. So this podcast lifts up the many people and organizations working to make housing, health care, and a decent life enforceable human rights for all. So today we are very excited to welcome a leader of one of the premier anti-poverty organizations in our nation. Devin Gray is the president of Ending Poverty in California, known as EPIC. Doing terrific work in a setting that proves to the rest of the nation what is possible. So, Devin, thank you for joining us. Devon Gray: Thanks for having me, Fran. This is really a great opportunity to chat about our work. And thank you for all that you do. Fran Quigley: your work is an inspiration to us and so I'm excited to have more people know more about it. So ⁓ if we can talk about you first, let's ⁓ your own background and and your journey to to this role in Epic, you know, what how did you get started in this and and what's been your what's been your own path? Devon Gray: Yeah, I grew up in Orange County, California, which is a place that has like California, a lot of ⁓ would say surface level conceptions about what the economy is like for folks. I think there's a perception that again, much like the rest of the state that Orange County is, ⁓ Disneyland and beachfront property and real housewives and reality television, whatever it might be. But in truth, it's a place that has ⁓ economic diversity. And growing up in a town that had ⁓ sort of a microcosm of that diversity, I learned very early on that the economy and government more broadly worked really well for some people and really not so well for others. And that sort of spurned an interest in politics and public policy more broadly. I went to law school, ultimately decided not to practice, but went into policy work, working on campaigns, worked for the governor of California for a time. And then ultimately was tapped by the former mayor of Stockton, California, Michael Tubbs, to lead this new initiative called End Poverty in California. And four and a half years later, here we are with the team of around eight or nine folks and doing work across the state with some real wins to hang our hat on. Fran Quigley: That's great. Well, I must say perse on a personal level for my day job, I'm excited to have yet another example to tell law students that there's a there's a way that you can use your JD that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to court all the time, but you can make a big impact. So ⁓ you're clearly doing that. So ⁓ I'd like to ask you just a little bit about Epic's ⁓ mission, the approach. ⁓ what one of the things I'd like you to talk directly to is when you talk about changing the narrative about poverty and and using the terms of of track Devon Gray: you Fran Quigley: trying to overcome outdated stereotypes. So if you could talk a little bit about what what you all do to change that narrative. Devon Gray: Yeah, so I think EPIC's forming our foundation was really predicated on a question that posed ourselves, which is that California as a state obviously has tremendous We have ⁓ an that's now above $4 trillion a year. ⁓ We the fourth largest economy in the world by GDP. ⁓ We have world-class educational institutions, dynamic industries in different sectors. We have capital in spades. have political progressives having the ⁓ super majority of seats in their legislature, every statewide elected official, at least on says that they want to reduce poverty. And yet year after year, California has the highest poverty rate of any state in the country when you take into account cost of living. And so the question that became ⁓ sort unavoidable. was how can a state that has so much going right for it still have so many people going without and really struggling to get by and in many cases, ultimately becoming refugees of the state and having to leave to be able to find economic opportunity elsewhere. And our theory of the case again, wasn't one of a lack of resourcing. we don't have resources, then no one has resources, right, in California. But our theory of the case really was that the story that we... ⁓ Fran Quigley: Right, right. Devon Gray: tell and that we have been told about why poverty exists at all and why it exists for certain people and not others at its core flawed. And flawed in ways that lead to not only ⁓ the will, but the actual ⁓ ways policy decisions are made and certain policies are designed. And there are myriad examples for that. But the central core of this problematic narrative the belief that poverty is ⁓ fundamentally an failing. no matter what we do, there's always going to be some segment of the population that because of their own character flaws, never achieve economic stability, let alone economic success. We that is at its of, to say the least, flawed narrative. And instead, ⁓ the counter that we work to advance through many tactics and strategies is one that positions poverty as a policy choice ⁓ more than else. I that is ⁓ a consequence of ⁓ the system structures and policies that make it an inevitability for too many people in the state. so what we do to try to address these narratives is by ⁓ storytelling, raising the voices and capturing the stories of the people who are experiencing poverty today across California in their own words, in a three-dimensional way that demonstrates ways in which ⁓ those same and structures set people up fail and also advancing solutions things that we've seen both within California at the state and local level, but also elsewhere in the country that seem to be effective in providing people the opportunity and the platform in some ways, the trampoline to get out of poverty ultimately. Fran Quigley: ⁓ I like that trampoline. That's wonderful. That that makes it sound fun and ⁓ impactful. That's a that's a that's a great metaphor. well, I was struck by and I wanna we'll definitely put in the show notes and and and direct folks to you to your website and and to your socials, but the listen to workers campaign was was really striking to me because ⁓ as again I mentioned you know our experiences we're in eviction court each week, and so what who you have on your website, I'm gonna tell folks fast food workers, child care providers, security workers, gig. drivers, etc. That's who we see, right? And a whole lot of folks in in healthcare, ⁓ which I want to ask you about specifically in a minute, but you know, what what was the the impetus for the Listen to Workers campaign and you what how has that been going? Devon Gray: The campaign itself has been going really strong over the last year or so, but it really emerged in the wake of the 2024 general election where Donald Trump was the first Republican to win voters making under $50,000 a year in recent memory. I couldn't even tell you the last time that happened. Obviously, the sort of post-mortem analysis that came from this was that people on the center left to the left were out of touch with working people and working voters and ultimately the concerns that they had. And so there's been all this hand-wringing that we've seen from the political class and others around, can progressive South Korean liberals, South Korean Democrats get back the, you know, the working vote? And From our perspective, because we spend so much of our time in communities listening to people, and that being sort of the core of our programmatic work at Epic, the solution seemed pretty obvious. That the solution, if you want to understand the concerns of working people, you should spend time listening to workers. And so we started a campaign called Listen to Workers. And the focus ⁓ the workers, we take a very broad approach to the definition of what it means to be a worker. think the vast majority of people are workers, whether you... have earned income or whether you're doing unpaid work, whether you're in a union, whether you're a non-union worker. work manifests in different ways, but it's all valuable. And ⁓ are stories worth hearing because people engage with the economy, with their economy in different ways. And so what we've tried to do over the last year or so, successfully, I would say, both in California and nationally, which has been really exciting, is holding interviews policymakers workers in their districts. where we have state legislators in California and in many other states now. And we've now achieved over a hundred legislators from different states who have committed to doing this, have the policymakers interview the workers, sort of a flipping of the script of the town hall model, really to leverage the that elected officials have to elevate the stories the workers first and foremost, but also recognizing that elected officials themselves, policymakers themselves, are an audience for narrative change and that they are just even if they are themselves conducting an interview, they are not unaffected by the stories that they hear. And the goal from that is to not only change hearts and minds, but also to compel policy action. And we have some really great examples of the conversations that we've captured both in person and virtually being utilized in advocacy. ⁓ Fran Quigley: ⁓ terrific. Devon Gray: For one example, we worked in tandem with Assemblymember Buffy Wicks, who represents the East Bay of California in the legislature. She was in the midst of doing this interview with a rideshare worker, a labor organizer who was a rideshare worker who drove for Lyft and Uber, advancing a bill to lift the prohibition on the unionization of rideshare workers. At California, voters threw a ballot measure a handful of years ago. Fran Quigley: Right. Devon Gray: essentially made it impossible for rideshare workers to unionize. in the midst of this ⁓ fight for labor rights for the 800,000 rideshare workers across the state of California, we were able to have a really powerful conversation that we capture between ⁓ rideshare worker and the author of a bill who was looking to lift that prohibition. And that work is continuing now, but bill was signed into law last year by Governor Newsom. So that's one example of a few, but yeah, it's been a really interesting. ⁓ Fran Quigley: All right, that's great. Devon Gray: I say powerful campaign that is continuing to expand. And in January, we had our first sort foray outside of California partnering with Southern Economic Advancement Project in Georgia and the minority leader of the Georgia legislature, Carolyn Hugley, to have a roundtable with workers that was moderated by Stacey Abrams. And that was a great event as well. So the model seems to be catching some attention with legislators outside of California. And I think that storytelling and this narrative change work doesn't necessarily know state lines. I think it is in many ways a national project. Fran Quigley: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So ⁓ just maybe a little inside baseball, but in terms of the workers that you're you're recruiting to to have these conversations, you partner with SEIU I'm not mistaken. I mean, so a lot of this is gonna be folks who are trying to organize ⁓ their their own sectors. I'd say workplaces, but it's oftentimes not workplaces, right? If you're a gig driver, for instance. So those are some of the folks you're taught you're that are that are ready and eager to talk to to lawmakers. Devon Gray: Yeah, in many cases, that's the case, but not exclusively. So, SAEU California has been a real anchor partner for this work, but we've also been working with early childhood organizations, care organizations like Caring Across Generations and others because we especially in California, the state of play for care workers, ⁓ whether be early childhood, ⁓ elder care, whatever it might be, ⁓ it's dire. ⁓ Again, yes, it's oftentimes the case that we're working with folks who are part of the labor movement and sort of have a little bit of muscle memory in terms of being able to translate the concerns that they have and the experiences that they have into tangible policy language to make it a bit more suitable for the inside baseball conversations. But it's not been exclusively the case. And I think some of our more conversations have been with folks who are just like normal people who are able to articulate their experiences in a really authentic way. And it's not certainly not their job to translate it for policymakers. It's probably our job in some ways. But think the three dimensionality of their experiences being ⁓ conveyed has powerful ⁓ in a but equally useful way. Fran Quigley: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And, you know, our experience is like so many others who who work in the service ⁓ you know, anti poverty industry as well as as as well as policy advocacy. But you know, the folks we see many, many folks we see every week in eviction court could could give a terrific ⁓ conversation with lawmakers about what the problems are and what could be the potential fixes. So I'm I'm intrigued by and and excited by the fact that you all you you find ⁓ the folks and and give them the opportunity to have those conversations. Devon Gray: Yeah, people are experts in their own lives and they know the story of what they're living day to day better than anyone else from like a third party point of view could ever express. ⁓ our ⁓ towards storytelling and narrative change work is that if we're doing all the talking, we're doing something wrong. Like I don't think the solutions ⁓ the stories need to Fran Quigley: go ahead. Yeah. Devon Gray: need to be translated for a different audience, sometimes for ⁓ occasionally. But ⁓ when we're talking to the general public, I think are perfectly capable of telling their own stories. And I think that there's real power in that. And to the extent that we're able to just provide a small platform, think we're doing something that's additive. Fran Quigley: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I I wonder, you know, when you ⁓ I assume that not every legislator would be ⁓ willing to have those one on one conversations. They should be, but not everyone would be. But and and also you have in California you've got ballot measure challenges. So you you've got you've got to get the message out to big broad groups of people who don't necessarily have those individual conversations. So, you know, you used to work for the governor, you've worked for a mayor, etc. For you know, w when you're talking with leaders, ⁓ thought leaders, political leaders, etcetera. You know, what I notice you in in all the epic advocacy, you know, use word workers a lot, right? The people are working. ⁓ use it you talk about poverty wage employers and things like that. So what kind of messages work in terms of all of us who want to want to shine a light on some of the challenges to to lawmakers and other change makers ⁓ and opinion leaders. You know, what what what's your thought about what kind of messaging works? Devon Gray: Yeah, I think there's a few things. Sometimes it's the substance, sometimes it's the style that matters. On the style, the method of delivery, I do think that there is something uniquely powerful about people telling their own experiences and their own words. there's so many examples of this, but I think ⁓ that comes to mind is we're having conversations around benefit or accessing the ⁓ safety systems, the benefits programs that are perhaps paper available to folks, but require jumping through ⁓ so many hoops filling out so many forms and so many appointments. to be able to ultimately avail oneself of programs like TANF or SNAP or Medicaid, whatever it might be. And I think having someone be able to both articulate their challenges ⁓ accessing and staying on the system to a legislator is really useful. So being able to convey those experiences directly. But in some ways also trying to walk a legislator through what that process actually looks like in real life is quite powerful as well. We've had some... brave legislators who have been willing to fill out forms along the way and to see up close what that process looks like and how onerous it is. So I think, there is probably some value in being able to speak the baseball language for policymakers and certainly for staff as well. But I don't think much replaces the authentic of looking someone in the eyes and having to hear their story. And it's why when we are engaged in our programmatic work at EPIC, which is really centered around an ongoing listening tour of the state where we've spent time in 26 or 27 counties across California holding convenings with folks who are currently living in poverty today and bringing together grassroots organizers and CBOs, philanthropic partners and the like. We also really appreciate bringing policymakers to those conversations as well, because being able to ⁓ in community with folks at a round table, hearing people's experiences. ⁓ And having to be asked the question, like, you're kind of the only person here who has the ability to solve this, like, what are you going to do, a lot more powerful than ⁓ private meeting in a legislative office, I find. And so, you ⁓ not policymaker is willing to engage with their constituents to that degree, and I recognize that. And there's obviously, ⁓ I say it's probably even a minority who are willing to do that. But if it makes the minority of... Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. Which is Devon Gray: constituent focused legislators more active and tireless in ⁓ their policymaking work, I think we're better off for it. Fran Quigley: Right. And and so w what about, you know, you you all with with your social media, with your website, etcetera, ⁓ with with that you're you're getting those voices out to the general public as well. And ⁓ you know, how have you have you been able to gauge how effective that's been again when these are the folks voting for the lawmakers, these are folks voting on the ballot measures directly in your state. ⁓ how how is that one working? Devon Gray: Yeah, you know, I won't sugarcoat it. It is difficult in a competitive media ecosystem to break through for everyone. I mean, hell, for Netflix, it's hard to break through sometimes, right? And so we have an approach that tries to do a couple of things. And for the content that we produce, we understand that we can have something go viral on social media, and that still is not enough. That is not sufficient to change. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Devon Gray: centuries long held beliefs around poverty and about the economy that still dictate so many of our policy debates. And so we require, I think the movement requires coordination and scale between allied organizations and allied entities, whether it be not just in the nonprofit space, but in the private sector, among elected officials, along philanthropy and whatever it might be. We have to coordinate in order to be able to compete for people in a ⁓ competitive attention economy. ⁓ The second piece, is I think, you know, also quite useful though insufficient on its own, ⁓ trying to piggyback on existing large platforms for our work. So we certainly try to highlight the voices of folks that we come into contact with on our platforms, the even more powerful way of approaching that work is to leverage earned media ⁓ and it be op-ed placements in major publications, which we've done. ⁓ I had an op-ed on the Listen to Workers campaign and, newsweek and had tens of millions of impressions, right? And that's measurable and that's real. ⁓ But also trying to work with folks in Hollywood and showrunners to be able to ensure that the stories that are portrayed on poverty are accurate and actually reflect people's experiences, really common experiences, is really the way that we change culture. And so we're continuing to work on that. There have been good examples ⁓ of that do a good job. Fran Quigley: Yeah. Devon Gray: on that front, but it's also difficult, right? Like there are people in Hollywood are the same audience that we are trying to reach as well. They're just folks who internalize the same beliefs. And so it requires, again, coordination between of the allies across different sectors and really us trying to come together to ensure, not demand, that the stories that are told about all of us ⁓ reflect semblance of reality rather than playing into stereotypes. Fran Quigley: Yeah. That's that's really intriguing to me the whole Hollywood approach. ⁓ that I I've in the past worked we've worked closely with type diabetes advocates who've have been really successful and exposing the the really ⁓ tragic abuse of pharmaceutical companies d price on insulin and and trap and tragic and deadly abuse. And ⁓ they one of the big victories, I can't remember the show, but it was having a a show where somebody ⁓ one of the medical shows I think where somebody actually passed away because they couldn't afford their insulin. So I wondered if you if are there recent examples where you you've suc ⁓ been happy that a particular show or movie or or what have you has has lifted up some of the poverty issues? ⁓ Devon Gray: Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the there have been a couple of shows and wish I watched more TV and could actually name the the show that ⁓ mentioned guaranteed income as a policy, which is something that we're is very near and dear to our hearts given the given Mayor Tubbs record in Stockton. So that's been really neat to see that like explicitly mentioned as a Fran Quigley: Okay. Yeah. Devon Gray: as an effective anti-poverty lever for folks. But even more broadly, I was a big fan of the show Made ⁓ Netflix. That was ⁓ the adaptation of Stephanie Land's book about her struggles with navigating the economy as a, I believe she was a single mother at the time. And I that was a really strong portrayal. Yeah, M-A-I-D, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ And... ⁓ Fran Quigley: ⁓ A I D, right? ⁓ A ⁓ A yeah, yeah. Devon Gray: And I've met her a couple of times and I think she's brilliant. And I think that's been a really strong portrayal, but it just goes to show that it required the source material to be directly from someone who had experience what was like to be living in poverty for years. But I think that's also what made it so compelling. ⁓ Like ⁓ it just extracting the stories, it was the source of the story. It was the direct story. And so part of it is also that we have to ensure that Fran Quigley: Yeah, right, right. Devon Gray: there are fewer barriers to entry to these culturally relevant positions where people are able to tell their stories. And probably outside of my lane, but it's something I would certainly like to see because if we're able to shape who is even allowed to tell their story in the first place, I think we stand better chance for ensuring that the stories that are told are authentic ones. Fran Quigley: Yeah. If if I can ask you the the having folks tell their stories, ⁓ you know, a ⁓ poverty equals trauma for so many folks and people are really struggling and and of course their time is incredibly valuable. You know, what what do you do to support and guide people to w when they when you do think that they're have a good story to tell and an impactful story to tell. You know, what what's the what's the back s the the you know, the the back of the house work that you you all need to do to to to make that happen? Devon Gray: That's a great question. There's two main things. The first is that we compensate people. That's sort of a non-negotiable for us. We believe, as many others do, ⁓ when folks are sharing their experiences, it's really an expertise that's being conveyed and that expertise should be compensated appropriately. ⁓ because it is ⁓ and two, because obviously it takes time and effort to be able to do so. So even just for coming to the listening sessions that we have around the state, folks get a a gift card of $100 plus food and childcare for the written pieces that we ⁓ with folks. It's a bit more than that. But terms of the actual development of the content, we work closely with folks to provide the that they want. So it can range from ghost writing with like post an interview, like a very in-depth hour-long interview about the story. And then we maybe take a first draft and have folks offer edits whatnot. to make sure that they're comfortable with the that their story is being told. Or to the other end, can take the first pass ⁓ and can just be ⁓ a partner on how to get something depending on how ⁓ tight it And so for the written really is about what do folks need? hands-on do we need to be? How hands-on do they want us to be? And then go from there. And then truthfully, with the video content, giving questions to people in advance so have a chance to prepare them, having to be a thought partner along the way. But folks have a really easy time telling their stories truthfully. It's been remarkable to see. But the written work, I think, requires a bit more involvement. Because as you know, it is competitive to get op-eds placed in major publications. And we want to make sure that people's stories are being told in a way that is clear and compelling. Concise. Fran Quigley: Right, right. ⁓ that's that's that's great, Devin. And that I agree for what it's worth in my experience that it's so many times with clients, like I wish they could give the final argument, right? Especially if it's a jury, right? They they can tell their story better than a any a well trained law student or lawyer can tell their story 'cause it is their story. there's a there's an inherent ⁓ credibility Devon Gray: Yeah. Fran Quigley: ⁓ so the name of the organization is Ending Poverty in California, and we would love to end poverty. And so of course the the path to get there is going to be through ⁓ ⁓ us ⁓ ⁓ the folks who are are struggling with it. But but in terms of ⁓ kind of zooming out a little bit in terms of the policy, I'd like to ask and again a a Devon Gray: So Fran Quigley: an endorsement to our listeners to check your website out because you do have a blueprint to end poverty which is fifty one pages, a hundred and some footnotes, etcetera. So anybody listening to this who wants to geek out on all the details. ⁓ but you know what the big picture question for us is, you know, how do we end poverty? What what does that look like? Devon Gray: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's two big buckets in the way that we think about these things and not to get too wonky, but the language that we use in the blueprint and that I try to not use when I'm out on the road talking to people. But I think this is a safe space. The words are predistributional and redistributional. And the way to think of it is sort of, know, what are the upstream things that we can do to try to prevent inequalities from taking place in the first place? And then what are the remedies that we have in the back end to ameliorate inequality after it's already happened? And there are a few things, but I think there are a things to touch upon in both buckets, but like the unifying theme that I think of a framework that ⁓ colleague of mine named Natalie Foster, who founded Economic Security Project, writes about in a book that she put out a year or two ago around are like the guarantees that we establish for all people in the country. And so we think about things like guaranteed income as a redistributive method of of reducing poverty, but also guaranteed inheritance as a way of providing nest eggs upfront for folks to provide a cushion and optionality and economic security for people before ⁓ even become adults. ⁓ something that happens upstream. Guaranteed guaranteed healthcare, whatever it might be, but those are things that are also preventative from allowing for inequality to take place in the first place. I think of it as, do we establish certain floors that we people don't fall below? And I think we will know that we've ended poverty when we have floors that are universal and high enough that folks, that the idea that someone could fall below a certain standard of living seems inconceivable. Fran Quigley: great. you this is again it may seem in twenty twenty six in the United States, especially in in those of in red states or and places that are are really struggling politically and economically, almost unbelievable. But there are examples, right? There are examples ⁓ of floors like in other nations, particularly ⁓ northern Europe. European nations, et cetera. I mean, do you have some examples that you could lift up to folks of like this is actually something that's doable? ⁓ Devon Gray: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we've had some really successful policy wins in the last handful of years. I I think of the expanded child tax credit in 2021, which for folks who don't know, was part of the American rescue plan in the first year of the Biden administration where the child tax credit has been around for a while. And it's essentially just, you know, it's what it sounds like, but the people's eyes tend to glaze over when you mention the word tax in any context, but you can sort of think of it as a guaranteed income, but in the form of a tax rebate. But the expanded child tax credit in 2021 provided every household with a kid under 18, think if you had to make under $150,000 a year, so was for the vast majority of households in the US, you got $3,000, no strings attached in the form of a tax credit, if you had a kid under, per child. And if you had a kid under six, you got $3,600, again, no strings attached whatsoever. Fran Quigley: Right, right. Devon Gray: And the effects of this were remarkable. Again, this was a national policy. Everyone got it. unless you were doing quite well financially, the results were unbelievable. We cut child poverty in half in a single year. We got to record low levels of poverty in our nation's history that year. And you could argue, yes, in the middle of a pandemic. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Fran Quigley: In a pandemic, for goodness sakes. During a pandemic. Yeah. Devon Gray: And one could argue that that was the greatest anti-poverty win since LBJ's Great Society, just given the sheer scale of the poverty reduction. And it should have been a no-brainer that we all view this as a success. I who doesn't want poverty rates to go down? I don't think there's anyone in, you know, regardless of your political persuasion, who would look at the decrease in poverty and think like, that's a bad thing. Everyone would think that's a good thing. And yet the after when it was up for renewal, Senate Republicans plus Joe Manchin, who was at the time a Democrat, killed it. Because was to saying this, that he thought that people were using the money on drugs and booze. And it didn't matter that we had troves of data showing that people were spending it on groceries and school supplies and rent utilities, whatever it might be. The story around why people are in the first place and the behavior of poor people was more powerful than data ever could be. the Results the following year were horrendous. We had the single largest one year increase in poverty in American history. We saw the child poverty rate in California go up by nearly 140%. And I think it was 3 million kids the following year were thrust back into poverty who wouldn't have otherwise been. So it was a disastrous result for a policy that I think can show the way forward for how we can ultimately end poverty once and for all. But unfortunately, the story was more powerful than. the win that we had, which was, in my view, an unambiguously positive outcome. Fran Quigley: Right. And on a micro level, I can just in endorse that saying, you know, there was that year, year and a half or so in eviction court, people were able to get out of the hole. They could get pay off back ⁓ rent when they got the the the tax credit come through. Again, kids are the most ⁓ common demographic of who's being evicted because it's you know, parents with young kids are struggling economically and and so we were seeing that take effect along with rental assistance and so many other pandemic programs that all went away. And then of course we also heard Devon Gray: Yeah. Fran Quigley: We we live in a state in Indiana where the governor was one of the governors, I think it was like half the states, where they stopped unemployment benefits, ⁓ the increased unemployment benefits early because weren't taking that third shift at Hardy's for twelve bucks an hour because they weren't desperate enough. And so it was it that was some pretty scary stuff when they did say the quiet part out loud, saying, you know, we need nobody wants to work anymore. Well, they don't want to work your job that's ⁓ poverty ⁓ and leave their kids in a sketchy Devon Gray: Yeah. mentioned fast food, and I think it's worth mentioning because we talk about the story so much around and how influences policy debates. There has been, ⁓ I think, the ether forever this idea that if you raise wages for folks, ⁓ it's going lead to inflation or it's going to lead to layoffs, whatever it might be. ⁓ California is actually a very good test case for this. We were involved in this effort as well, though it was led by labor groups like SCIU to establish a $20 minimum wage for fast food workers in the state, along with a suite of worker protections for a class of workers that are frankly abused a ton by their employers, unfortunately. So $20 minimum wage for fast food workers in California went into effect a year or two ago. probably two or three years ago now. the effects have been ⁓ interesting. We have not seen large in the cost of cheeseburgers, not in way that has outpaced inflation in any meaningful way. And more recently, data have come out that indicates that employment separations have stayed pretty stable, actually gone down in some way. So means that fewer people are leaving their jobs, fewer people are retiring out of these jobs. Fran Quigley: Sure. Yeah. Devon Gray: And there aren't layoffs in any meaningful amount. People thought, ⁓ we're going to see automation. We're going to have like, you know, the, robots taking your order at McDonald's. It actually hasn't happened in any meaningful way. And so all of the, you know, the chicken littling, saying the sky was going to fall down because we wanted to pay fast food workers something closer to a living wage. So it's certainly not a living wage in California. I have just been proven to be false. And so nothing's really changed except that wages have gone up tremendously and people are viewing these jobs as sustainable and they're staying in them. They used to be high turnover jobs, but they're sticking around now. Fran Quigley: Right. And if Yeah, and to to the high turnover point, if I'm managing a fast food restaurant, I'm excited that people are gonna stay as opposed to immediately go to something else just because the the wages are so high or low. And then oftentimes quitting just 'cause they have to do child care, right? ⁓ that's that's terrific. Well that leads to the next question, which ⁓ dollar minimum wage for fast food workers Devon Gray: Sorry. Fran Quigley: Seems like a fantasy in some places, including where I live. But it's not, right? This is possible and and it can happen and in the c and the evidence as you say is very clear. So what kind of lessons from ending poverty in California can you give for those of us who want ⁓ end poverty in the other forty nine states as well? Devon Gray: Yeah, the first one is we can't do anything alone. We rely heavily on partners, from other ⁓ and CBOs, from grassroots organizers, from the community, ideally institutional philanthropy, folks that have staffs rather than just ⁓ individual though they're important as well. And of course, policymakers and folks who have the ability to be able to actually shift levers of power. It's not always going to be as readily available an option for finding allies red states potentially, might be the case. ⁓ I think nonetheless, coalition building is super Obviously keeping the voices and stories of the folks who are at the forefront of the issue top of mind and front and center, I think is a non-negotiable. But also, Fran Quigley: Yeah. Which we can do in every single state and and should do in every single state. Nothing about California, do you think about that? Yeah. Devon Gray: Absolutely. Absolutely. There are stories to be told everywhere. And though they might rhyme from place to place, I think there will be unique to those stories that are worth highlighting and sort of pulling on that thread. And the last thing I would say is, regardless where we are, we always should be applying a power analysis to the work that we do. What are the levers that we do have the ability to pull? What are barriers? What is it going to take to be able to build the power over the long term? that's gonna be needed to find success. And in some ways, our allies in red states have the sort the necessity of having to engage in long-term planning for power building because it just doesn't feel as close as it might be in other places though. I think all of us have a lot of work to do. So I think those are some lessons that are worth chewing on, but ⁓ I just think that. ⁓ to extent that we're able to build power at the local level, have it ladder up to regional and state levels, I think it makes us a bit stronger than trying to a power structure, particularly in a red state that is unfavorable today and almost certainly gonna be unfavorable tomorrow as well. Fran Quigley: Right, right. But But again, hopefully on an individual level, lawmakers and people in power if they hear from their constituents directly, as you've said many times, is the is is the most powerful force that we have and in this cause. ⁓ well I could talk to you about three more hours and that you don't have the time and probably folks listening would would like to move up. But I do want to ⁓ encourage folks to to check out it's end povertyinca dot org, right? Is the is the website with a lot of resources, including the blueprint and poverty included. Devon Gray: Yes. Yes. Fran Quigley: videos of of workers talking about their ⁓ their own stories. Anything else, Devin, that you that you would like ⁓ folks are listening to to know that we didn't talk about yet? Devon Gray: I think the only thing I would add is I think all of us have the capacity to be storytellers in our own way. And if folks would like to join the Listen to Workers campaign, you don't need to be sitting down with a lawmaker. You can also just pick up your phone and use the hashtag listen, the number two workers tell your own story. I think that's important as well. And I think if we're able to create Any symbols of a movement around the importance of worker voices and shaping culture and shaping policy, we all need to be contributing to that effort. you don't need, luckily in this day and age, you don't need a medium or a validator to be able to get your story out there. We all have companies in our pockets, right? So I would encourage people to do that. Fran Quigley: That's ⁓ that's a great that's a great way to put it. So so it's hashtag listen no the number two workers, right? That gets it and we can all get immediately connected to to all of our sisters and brothers doing this work. ⁓ any ⁓ so how how else can we follow ⁓ what Epic is doing and what you're doing? You all are on Twitter X and on Instagram, right? Devon Gray: Yes, correct. Yeah, we're everywhere. Our handle is endpovertyca. You can find me on Instagram at devanjgrey, D-E-V-O-N-J-G-R-A-Y, and on Twitter at devangreyca. Fran Quigley: Okay. All right. Well that we'll we'll put that information in the show notes so folks can can access it. Devin, is terrific. This is ⁓ again, as I mentioned, we're ⁓ we're getting this podcast launched, but the the synergy between what we want to do and what you all have already been doing is ⁓ is terrific and a real inspiration to me and and I'm sure it is to a lot of folks are gonna be here in this ⁓ this episode too. Devon Gray: Thank you. Well, I'm inspired by what you're doing and what you're building here. And it was a real privilege being able to chat with you about this. Fran Quigley: All right, thanks, Devin. ⁓ to everyone, appreciate you listening. And again, we'll put the information to end poverty in California and Devin's information in the show notes. ⁓ And please join us week. And remember in the meantime, we can do better.