Latest / Deep Transformation / Learning From Death and Dying: Lessons for All of Us From Zen Hospice with Frank Ostaseski (Part 2)

Transcript

Learning From Death and Dying: Lessons for All of Us From Zen Hospice with Frank Ostaseski (Part 2) · Deep Transformation

0:00
Welcome
0:00
to
0:00
part
0:01
two
0:01
of
0:01
our
0:01
conversation
0:02
with
0:02
Frank
0:02
Ostaseski
0:04
where
0:04
we
0:04
continue
0:04
to
0:05
explore
0:05
death,
0:06
compassion
0:07
and
0:07
gratitude.
0:12
Welcome
0:12
to
0:13
Deep
0:13
Transformation,
0:14
Self,
0:14
Society,
0:15
Spirit,
0:16
Life
0:16
enhancing,
0:17
Paradigm
0:17
Rattling
0:18
conversations
0:19
with
0:19
cutting
0:19
edge
0:20
thinkers,
0:20
contemplatives
0:21
and
0:21
activists
0:22
with
0:22
Dr.
0:23
Roger
0:23
Walsh
0:23
and
0:24
John
0:24
Dupuis.
0:27
What
0:28
I'm
0:28
struck
0:28
by
0:28
as
0:29
you
0:29
speak,
0:29
and
0:29
I
0:29
was
0:29
also
0:30
struck
0:30
by
0:30
in
0:31
your
0:31
book,
0:31
is
0:32
how
0:32
many
0:33
of
0:33
the
0:33
qualities
0:34
that
0:35
enable
0:36
someone
0:37
to
0:38
be
0:38
with
0:38
the
0:39
dying
0:39
in
0:39
a
0:40
supportive,
0:41
helpful
0:42
way
0:42
and
0:42
in
0:43
recognition
0:43
that
0:43
helpful
0:44
may
0:44
mean
0:45
not
0:45
doing
0:45
anything
0:45
other
0:46
than
0:46
being
0:46
a
0:46
loving
0:47
presence,
0:48
but
0:48
they're
0:48
really,
0:49
they're
0:50
not
0:50
professional
0:51
skills,
0:52
their
0:53
personal
0:53
qualities
0:54
and
0:54
capacities.
0:56
And
0:57
that
0:57
feels
0:58
again,
0:59
part
0:59
of
0:59
the
1:00
difficulty
1:00
with
1:00
medicalization
1:01
and
1:01
professionalization
1:02
is
1:03
so
1:04
much
1:04
of
1:04
how
1:04
we
1:05
think
1:05
of
1:05
approaching
1:06
people
1:06
and
1:06
helping
1:07
people
1:09
focuses
1:10
on
1:10
techniques
1:11
and
1:11
skills
1:12
as
1:12
opposed
1:13
to
1:14
being
1:14
human
1:15
with,
1:15
et
1:16
cetera.
1:17
This
1:17
struck
1:17
me
1:18
so
1:18
much
1:18
in
1:19
reading
1:19
about
1:19
the
1:20
work
1:20
with
1:20
the
1:20
dying.
1:22
Well,
1:23
thank
1:23
you
1:23
for
1:23
saying
1:23
that.
1:24
Roger
1:24
and
1:24
I,
1:24
it's
1:25
things
1:25
we
1:25
learn
1:25
from
1:25
our
1:26
grandmothers,
1:27
probably
1:28
not
1:28
our
1:28
mothers
1:28
and
1:29
fathers.
1:29
It
1:29
keeps
1:29
a
1:30
generation,
1:30
such
1:30
things.
1:31
I
1:31
think
1:31
that
1:31
kind
1:32
of
1:32
humanity
1:33
sitting
1:33
in
1:33
your
1:33
grandma's
1:34
lap,
1:34
you
1:34
learn
1:34
about
1:34
it,
1:35
you
1:35
know,
1:36
Robo
1:36
Shin,
1:37
I
1:37
think
1:37
it's
1:37
called
1:37
in
1:38
Zen,
1:38
grandmother
1:39
Love,
1:39
Grandmother
1:40
wisdom.
1:41
So
1:43
it's
1:43
the
1:43
most
1:43
natural
1:44
thing
1:46
and
1:46
it's
1:46
just
1:46
that
1:46
we've
1:46
lost
1:47
touch
1:47
with
1:47
it
1:47
and
1:48
we've
1:48
so
1:49
professionalized
1:49
our
1:50
care
1:50
of
1:50
the
1:50
dying
1:50
that
1:50
we've
1:51
become
1:52
frightened
1:52
and
1:54
we
1:54
forget
1:54
our
1:55
innate
1:55
generosity
1:56
and
1:56
wisdom
1:56
and
1:57
compassion.
1:59
Raja,
2:00
you
2:00
and
2:00
I
2:00
come
2:00
from
2:01
share
2:01
a
2:02
strong
2:02
Buddhist
2:03
legacy
2:03
or
2:04
practice
2:05
and
2:05
I'm
2:06
ever
2:06
grateful
2:06
for
2:07
it,
2:09
you
2:09
know,
2:10
compassionate
2:11
action,
2:11
which
2:11
is,
2:11
I
2:12
think,
2:12
what
2:12
guided
2:12
our
2:12
work.
2:13
It's
2:13
an
2:13
hospice
2:14
project.
2:14
It
2:14
works
2:15
from
2:15
this
2:16
understanding,
2:17
at
2:17
least
2:17
in
2:17
my
2:18
way
2:18
of
2:18
thinking
2:19
about
2:19
it
2:19
as
2:20
this
2:20
kind
2:20
of
2:21
boundless
2:22
compassion
2:22
that's
2:22
available
2:23
to
2:23
us
2:23
all
2:24
the
2:24
time,
2:24
you
2:24
know,
2:24
and
2:24
we
2:25
speak
2:25
about
2:25
this
2:26
beautifully
2:26
and
2:27
the
2:27
texts
2:28
speak
2:28
about
2:28
it.
2:28
But
2:28
then
2:28
there's
2:29
this
2:29
very
2:30
grounded
2:30
everyday
2:31
compassion
2:32
which
2:32
seems
2:32
really
2:33
important.
2:33
It's
2:33
when
2:33
we
2:33
do
2:34
stuff,
2:34
you
2:34
know,
2:34
when
2:34
we
2:35
feed
2:35
someone
2:35
soup
2:35
or
2:36
we,
2:36
you
2:36
know,
2:36
change
2:37
their
2:37
diapers,
2:38
that's
2:39
everyday
2:39
compassion.
2:40
And
2:40
for
2:40
me,
2:41
that
2:41
has
2:41
to
2:41
be
2:42
rooted
2:42
in
2:43
this
2:43
boundless
2:43
compassion.
2:44
Otherwise
2:44
we
2:44
will
2:45
get
2:45
exhausted
2:45
and
2:45
we
2:46
will
2:46
not
2:46
be
2:47
able
2:47
to
2:47
continue
2:47
to
2:47
do
2:48
it.
2:49
But
2:49
that
2:50
boundless
2:50
compassionate
2:51
needs
2:51
this
2:51
everyday
2:52
compassion.
2:52
Otherwise
2:53
it's
2:53
just
2:53
a
2:53
big
2:53
idea,
2:54
it's
2:54
just
2:54
a
2:54
big
2:55
prayer
2:55
and
2:55
that
2:55
doesn't
2:56
help
2:56
anything
2:56
in
2:57
the
2:57
world.
2:58
So
2:58
it's
2:59
this
3:01
blending
3:01
of
3:01
the
3:02
universal
3:02
and
3:02
the
3:03
everyday
3:03
which
3:03
seems
3:04
so
3:04
important
3:04
in
3:05
our
3:05
work
3:06
at
3:06
the
3:06
bedside.
3:07
And
3:07
again,
3:08
I
3:08
don't
3:08
want
3:08
to
3:09
make
3:09
these
3:09
things
3:11
not
3:11
romantic
3:11
about
3:12
it.
3:12
We
3:13
don't
3:13
think
3:13
it's
3:13
the
3:13
place
3:13
where
3:14
we
3:14
should
3:14
do
3:14
a
3:14
spiritual
3:15
bypass.
3:16
I
3:16
just
3:17
think
3:17
it's
3:18
where
3:18
that
3:18
innate
3:19
quality
3:19
will
3:20
emerge
3:20
most
3:21
easily
3:21
in
3:21
us,
3:22
because
3:22
we
3:22
see
3:22
ourself
3:23
and
3:23
the
3:23
other
3:23
person.
3:24
And
3:25
when
3:25
we
3:25
do,
3:25
when
3:25
we
3:26
see
3:26
ourselves
3:26
in
3:26
them
3:27
and
3:27
we
3:27
see
3:28
them
3:29
in
3:29
us,
3:29
the
3:30
way
3:30
in
3:30
which
3:30
we
3:30
care
3:31
for
3:31
them
3:31
fundamentally
3:32
shifts.
3:34
It
3:35
changes.
3:35
They're
3:36
not
3:36
just
3:36
the
3:36
object
3:37
of
3:37
our
3:37
care
3:37
anymore.
3:39
They
3:39
become
3:42
not
3:42
in
3:42
some
3:42
unhealthy
3:43
emergence,
3:44
but
3:44
they
3:44
become
3:45
us,
3:45
too.
3:46
We
3:46
see
3:46
our
3:47
mothers
3:47
in
3:47
them
3:47
and
3:47
our
3:48
loved
3:48
ones
3:49
in
3:49
them,
3:49
and
3:49
we
3:49
care
3:50
for
3:50
them
3:50
differently.
3:51
And
3:51
I
3:51
think
3:52
this
3:52
has
3:52
to
3:52
be
3:52
part
3:53
of
3:53
our
3:53
medical
3:53
training
3:53
going
3:54
forward.
3:55
I
3:56
wanted
3:56
to
3:56
share
3:57
experience.
3:57
I
3:58
went
3:58
to
3:58
live
3:59
with
3:59
my
3:59
parents
3:59
the
3:59
last
4:00
couple
4:00
of
4:00
years
4:00
of
4:00
their
4:00
lives.
4:01
I
4:01
had
4:01
a
4:02
very
4:02
pure
4:02
love
4:02
for
4:02
my
4:02
parents.
4:03
You
4:03
know,
4:03
in
4:03
the
4:03
forward
4:04
of
4:04
my
4:04
book,
4:04
I
4:04
said,
4:05
all
4:05
my
4:05
mistakes
4:06
are
4:06
on
4:06
me,
4:06
you
4:06
know,
4:06
and
4:07
everybody
4:07
in
4:07
grad
4:08
school
4:08
said
4:08
I
4:08
was
4:08
in
4:09
big
4:09
denial
4:09
about
4:09
it.
4:10
But
4:10
maybe
4:10
so,
4:11
maybe
4:11
not.
4:11
But
4:12
I
4:13
really
4:13
made
4:13
sure
4:13
that
4:15
they
4:15
knew,
4:15
because
4:16
I
4:16
had
4:16
two
4:16
years
4:16
to
4:16
do
4:16
this,
4:17
that
4:17
how
4:18
grateful
4:19
I
4:19
was
4:20
for
4:21
all
4:22
the
4:22
love
4:22
they'd
4:22
given
4:23
me
4:23
and
4:23
good
4:24
role
4:24
modeling
4:25
of
4:25
integrity
4:25
and
4:26
honesty.
4:26
And
4:27
there
4:27
was
4:27
nothing
4:28
left
4:28
unsaid
4:29
that
4:30
needed
4:30
to
4:30
be
4:30
said
4:31
in
4:31
that
4:31
relationship.
4:32
And
4:34
Roger
4:34
and
4:34
I
4:35
met
4:35
and
4:35
became
4:35
friends
4:36
when
4:36
we
4:36
were
4:36
in
4:36
a
4:36
conference,
4:37
and
4:38
he
4:38
had
4:38
just
4:38
lost
4:38
his
4:39
wife,
4:39
and
4:40
I
4:40
just
4:40
lost
4:40
my
4:41
parents.
4:41
And
4:41
that's
4:41
when
4:42
we
4:42
connected,
4:42
Roger.
4:43
That's
4:43
when
4:43
the
4:43
friendship
4:44
began.
4:44
There
4:45
was
4:45
just
4:45
an
4:45
emptiness
4:46
or
4:46
openness
4:46
in
4:47
us
4:47
that
4:47
brought
4:47
us
4:48
together.
4:48
So
4:49
I
4:49
would
4:49
say
4:49
that's
4:50
important
4:50
for
4:50
your
4:51
loved
4:51
ones
4:51
to
4:52
don't
4:54
give
4:54
them
4:54
a
4:54
call
4:54
or
4:55
just
4:55
let
4:55
them
4:55
know.
4:57
Don't
4:57
leave
4:58
anything
4:58
unsaid
4:59
that
4:59
needs
4:59
to
4:59
be
4:59
said.
4:59
And
5:00
I'm
5:00
very,
5:00
very
5:01
complete
5:02
with
5:02
my
5:02
parents
5:02
in
5:03
that
5:03
way.
5:04
And
5:04
though
5:04
I
5:04
still
5:05
miss
5:05
them,
5:05
that
5:05
really
5:06
helped.
5:07
Beautiful,
5:07
John.
5:07
Just
5:08
beautiful.
5:08
I
5:09
mean,
5:09
that's
5:09
a
5:09
rare
5:10
experience,
5:11
you
5:11
know?
5:11
It's
5:12
a
5:12
rare
5:12
experience,
5:13
John.
5:13
I
5:13
mean,
5:14
oh,
5:14
boy.
5:15
One
5:15
of
5:15
the
5:16
five
5:16
invitations
5:17
is,
5:17
don't
5:17
wait.
5:18
Don't
5:18
wait
5:19
until
5:19
your
5:19
parents
5:20
are
5:20
dying
5:20
to
5:21
have
5:21
this
5:21
conversation.
5:21
Do
5:22
it
5:22
now.
5:23
Do
5:23
it
5:23
now.
5:25
Don't
5:25
wait
5:25
to
5:25
tell
5:25
people
5:26
you
5:26
love
5:26
that
5:26
you
5:26
love
5:27
them.
5:29
How
5:29
gorgeous
5:30
that
5:30
you
5:30
got
5:30
to
5:31
do
5:31
that,
5:31
you
5:32
know?
5:32
I'd
5:32
sit
5:32
next
5:32
to
5:33
my
5:33
dad
5:33
with
5:33
my
5:33
arm
5:34
around
5:34
him
5:34
on
5:34
the
5:34
couch.
5:35
I'd
5:35
hold
5:35
his
5:35
hand
5:35
and
5:36
just
5:36
look
5:36
in
5:36
his
5:36
eyes
5:37
like,
5:37
dad,
5:37
I
5:37
love
5:38
you
5:38
so
5:38
much.
5:39
Thank
5:40
you
5:40
for
5:40
being
5:40
such
5:40
a
5:41
great
5:41
father.
5:41
Yeah.
5:42
What
5:42
a
5:43
gift.
5:44
It
5:45
must
5:45
have
5:45
changed
5:46
your
5:46
experience
5:47
of
5:47
their
5:47
dying
5:48
deeply
5:49
for
5:49
you,
5:49
John.
5:51
Yes.
5:51
In
5:51
that
5:52
there
5:52
Was
5:52
no
5:52
unfinished
5:53
business
5:53
in
5:53
that
5:53
way.
5:54
It
5:54
was
5:54
still.
5:55
It
5:55
was
5:55
still
5:55
a
5:55
great
5:56
loss
5:56
to
5:56
me,
5:56
and
5:57
I
5:57
still
5:57
miss
5:57
him.
5:58
But
5:58
there's
5:58
a
5:58
tenderness
5:59
about
5:59
that,
5:59
you
6:00
know,
6:00
there's
6:01
no
6:01
regrets.
6:02
Yeah,
6:02
well,
6:03
of
6:03
course
6:03
there's
6:03
a
6:03
tenderness.
6:04
There's
6:04
grief.
6:04
And,
6:05
you
6:05
know,
6:05
I.
6:06
We
6:06
haven't
6:07
talked
6:07
about
6:07
this
6:07
yet,
6:08
but
6:08
grief,
6:09
to
6:09
me,
6:09
is
6:09
a
6:09
way
6:10
we
6:10
continue
6:10
to
6:11
love
6:11
someone.
6:12
You
6:13
know,
6:13
it's
6:13
not
6:13
just
6:13
our.
6:15
Our
6:15
emotional
6:15
experience
6:16
of
6:16
that
6:16
disconnection.
6:17
It's
6:17
a
6:17
way
6:18
we
6:18
love.
6:19
We
6:20
have
6:20
too
6:20
many
6:20
models
6:21
to
6:21
try
6:21
and
6:21
get
6:22
people
6:22
over
6:22
grief
6:23
or
6:23
through
6:23
grief.
6:23
I'm
6:24
a
6:24
little
6:25
troubled
6:25
by
6:25
those,
6:25
to
6:26
be
6:26
honest
6:26
with
6:26
you.
6:26
How
6:27
come
6:27
we're
6:27
never
6:27
trying
6:27
to
6:27
get
6:27
people
6:28
over
6:28
their
6:28
joy
6:29
or
6:29
over
6:29
their
6:29
happiness?
6:30
I
6:30
mean,
6:30
grief
6:30
is
6:31
just
6:31
part
6:31
of
6:31
the
6:31
human
6:32
condition.
6:32
Of
6:33
course.
6:33
Of
6:34
course.
6:34
It's
6:34
a
6:34
natural
6:35
response
6:35
to
6:35
the
6:35
experience
6:36
of
6:36
loss.
6:39
I'd
6:39
like
6:39
to
6:40
go
6:40
back
6:40
to
6:40
something
6:41
you
6:41
introduced
6:42
before
6:42
Frank,
6:42
which
6:43
was
6:44
possible
6:45
experiences
6:46
that,
6:47
beyond
6:48
the
6:48
idea
6:49
of
6:49
acceptance,
6:50
you
6:50
talked
6:50
about
6:51
the
6:52
surrender.
6:53
And
6:54
are
6:54
there
6:54
subsequent
6:55
experiences
6:56
that
6:56
you've
6:57
noticed
6:57
tend
6:58
to
6:58
arise
6:58
for
6:59
people
6:59
after
7:01
an
7:01
experience
7:01
of
7:02
surrender?
7:05
Well,
7:05
of
7:05
course
7:05
there
7:06
are
7:06
the
7:06
things
7:06
that
7:06
John
7:07
was
7:07
just
7:07
talking
7:07
about.
7:08
When
7:08
people
7:08
discover
7:09
what
7:09
matters
7:10
most
7:10
to
7:10
them,
7:10
they
7:11
tend
7:11
to
7:11
act
7:11
on
7:12
it.
7:12
They
7:12
tend
7:13
to
7:13
say
7:13
things
7:13
like,
7:13
well,
7:14
the
7:14
only
7:14
thing
7:14
that's
7:14
really
7:15
important
7:15
to
7:15
me
7:15
is
7:15
being
7:16
around
7:16
the
7:16
people
7:16
I
7:16
love
7:17
now.
7:19
So
7:20
I
7:20
think
7:20
those
7:20
kinds
7:21
of
7:21
very
7:21
pragmatic
7:22
kinds
7:23
of
7:23
realizations
7:24
emerge.
7:25
I
7:25
think
7:25
there
7:25
are
7:25
subtler
7:26
experiences
7:27
that
7:27
occur,
7:27
Roger,
7:28
that
7:28
are
7:29
difficult
7:29
to
7:29
speak
7:30
about
7:30
because
7:30
they're
7:31
so
7:31
ephemeral
7:31
and
7:32
they
7:32
won't
7:32
subject
7:33
themselves
7:33
to
7:34
our
7:35
need
7:35
to
7:36
prove
7:36
things.
7:39
But
7:39
absolutely,
7:40
I
7:40
mean,
7:42
we
7:42
can.
7:44
If
7:44
we're
7:44
quiet,
7:45
we're
7:46
still.
7:47
We
7:47
can
7:48
track
7:49
people's
7:50
experience.
7:50
We
7:50
can
7:51
track
7:51
consciousness
7:52
as
7:52
it
7:53
is
7:53
changing
7:53
in
7:54
another
7:54
person.
7:55
Many
7:55
people
7:56
have
7:56
great
7:56
capacity
7:57
for
7:57
this.
7:58
Some
7:58
of
7:59
the
7:59
people
7:59
I've
7:59
studied
7:59
with
8:00
have
8:00
that
8:00
capacity.
8:01
I
8:01
don't.
8:02
I've
8:02
known
8:03
it
8:03
for
8:03
a
8:03
little
8:03
while.
8:04
I
8:04
know
8:04
it
8:04
in
8:04
the
8:05
dying
8:05
process
8:05
and
8:05
for
8:06
a
8:06
short
8:06
time
8:06
afterwards.
8:07
So
8:08
it
8:08
gives
8:08
me
8:08
confidence
8:09
that
8:10
consciousness
8:11
doesn't
8:11
stop
8:12
abruptly
8:13
when
8:13
the
8:14
heart
8:14
stops
8:14
or
8:15
the
8:15
brain
8:15
stops.
8:16
My
8:16
experience
8:17
in
8:17
that
8:17
tracking
8:18
is
8:19
oftentimes
8:20
of
8:20
a
8:20
great
8:21
stillness.
8:22
Something
8:22
is
8:23
as
8:23
black
8:23
as
8:23
the
8:24
shirt
8:24
you're
8:24
wearing,
8:24
sir.
8:26
There's
8:26
a
8:27
kind
8:27
of
8:27
peacefulness
8:28
in
8:28
it,
8:29
a
8:29
velvety
8:30
quality
8:30
that
8:31
I
8:31
notice
8:31
in
8:31
my
8:32
own
8:32
consciousness
8:32
when
8:33
I'm
8:34
with
8:34
someone
8:34
in
8:35
that
8:35
process.
8:36
That's
8:36
not
8:36
to
8:36
say
8:36
that
8:36
there
8:37
aren't
8:37
more
8:39
different
8:40
states
8:40
that
8:40
that
8:40
individual
8:41
might
8:41
move
8:41
through,
8:42
maybe
8:42
states
8:42
that
8:43
are
8:43
chaotic
8:43
or
8:43
difficult.
8:44
But
8:44
oftentimes
8:45
my
8:45
experience
8:46
of
8:46
them
8:46
in
8:46
the
8:47
first
8:47
day
8:48
or
8:48
two
8:48
after
8:48
they're
8:49
dying
8:49
is
8:49
something
8:50
like
8:50
a
8:51
kind
8:51
of
8:51
velvety
8:52
black
8:52
peacefulness.
8:53
I
8:54
remember
8:54
being
8:54
in
8:55
Italy,
8:55
teaching
8:56
at
8:56
a
8:56
vineyard,
8:57
and
8:58
I
8:59
talked
8:59
to
8:59
people
8:59
about
9:00
this,
9:01
and
9:01
they
9:01
said,
9:01
oh,
9:02
no,
9:02
we
9:02
don't
9:02
like
9:02
this.
9:02
We
9:02
like
9:02
the
9:03
clear
9:03
light.
9:03
We
9:03
want
9:04
the
9:04
blue
9:04
sky.
9:04
We
9:04
want
9:05
the
9:05
clear
9:05
light.
9:06
And
9:06
I
9:06
said,
9:06
well,
9:06
the
9:06
black
9:07
is
9:07
there,
9:07
too.
9:07
And
9:08
they
9:08
said,
9:08
oh,
9:08
no,
9:08
no,
9:08
it's
9:09
terrible.
9:09
They
9:09
didn't
9:09
want
9:10
to
9:10
experience
9:10
it.
9:10
So
9:10
I
9:11
said,
9:11
we
9:11
were
9:11
at
9:12
night.
9:12
And
9:12
so
9:12
I
9:12
said,
9:12
come
9:13
outside.
9:13
And
9:13
we
9:13
came
9:13
outside
9:14
and
9:14
we
9:14
all
9:14
laid
9:14
everybody
9:15
down
9:15
on
9:15
the
9:15
lawn.
9:15
And
9:16
I
9:16
said,
9:16
look
9:16
up
9:16
at
9:16
the
9:16
sky.
9:17
What
9:17
do
9:17
you
9:17
see?
9:17
Stars.
9:18
Wonderful
9:19
twinkling
9:19
stars.
9:19
I
9:19
said,
9:20
yeah,
9:20
and
9:20
what
9:20
are
9:20
the
9:20
stars
9:21
resting
9:21
in?
9:22
And,
9:23
of
9:23
course,
9:23
people
9:23
began
9:24
to
9:24
see
9:24
this
9:25
kind
9:25
of
9:25
black,
9:26
boundless
9:28
quality
9:28
that
9:28
was
9:29
there.
9:29
And
9:29
I'm
9:30
not
9:30
trying
9:30
to
9:30
impose
9:31
that
9:31
on
9:31
anyone,
9:32
but
9:32
I'm
9:33
also
9:33
not.
9:33
I'm
9:34
trying
9:34
not
9:34
to
9:34
have
9:35
us
9:36
live
9:36
with
9:37
some
9:37
idealistic
9:38
idea
9:39
about
9:39
what
9:40
should
9:40
happen
9:40
and
9:40
what
9:41
will
9:41
happen
9:42
after
9:42
the
9:42
time
9:42
of
9:42
our
9:43
dying.
9:43
So
9:44
my
9:44
experience
9:45
of
9:45
that
9:45
is
9:45
different
9:46
than
9:46
other
9:46
people's
9:47
and
9:47
certainly
9:48
others,
9:48
some
9:49
of
9:49
the
9:49
other
9:49
teachings
9:49
that
9:50
we've
9:50
both
9:50
been
9:50
exposed
9:51
to.
9:52
I
9:52
think
9:53
that
9:53
one
9:53
of
9:53
the
9:54
experiences
9:54
that
9:54
comes
9:54
out
9:55
of
9:55
people's
9:55
close
9:56
encounters
9:56
with
9:56
death
9:57
is
9:57
a
9:57
quality
9:57
of
9:58
gratefulness
9:58
and
9:59
generosity.
10:01
Our
10:01
dear
10:01
old
10:02
friend,
10:02
Brother
10:02
David
10:03
links
10:03
those
10:03
two
10:03
together
10:04
very
10:04
beautifully
10:05
into
10:06
a
10:06
sense
10:06
of
10:06
deep
10:06
belonging.
10:08
And
10:09
I
10:09
think
10:09
that
10:09
I
10:10
often
10:10
see
10:10
that
10:11
that's
10:11
one
10:11
of
10:11
the
10:12
qualities
10:12
that
10:12
emerge
10:13
from
10:14
these
10:14
deeper
10:14
experiences
10:15
of
10:16
surrender
10:16
and
10:17
the
10:17
like.
10:18
A
10:18
steep
10:18
sense
10:19
of
10:19
belonging
10:20
not
10:20
only
10:21
to
10:21
their
10:21
families
10:22
and
10:22
friends,
10:22
but
10:23
to
10:24
something
10:24
larger
10:24
than
10:25
themselves
10:25
that
10:25
also
10:25
includes
10:26
themselves.
10:26
That's
10:27
the
10:27
way
10:27
I
10:27
have
10:27
of
10:27
speaking
10:28
about
10:28
it.
10:30
We
10:31
belong
10:31
even
10:31
when
10:32
we
10:32
think
10:32
we
10:32
don't
10:32
belong.
10:36
Yeah,
10:36
I
10:36
think
10:36
that's
10:37
probably
10:37
one
10:37
of
10:37
the
10:37
great
10:37
fears
10:38
of
10:38
dying.
10:38
Feeling
10:39
that
10:39
we
10:39
no
10:39
longer
10:39
belong.
10:40
Somehow
10:41
we're
10:42
disconnected.
10:43
Well,
10:44
yes,
10:45
that's
10:45
true.
10:46
Until
10:47
that
10:47
sense
10:48
of
10:48
self
10:48
starts
10:49
to
10:49
be
10:49
stripped
10:49
away.
10:51
And
10:52
when
10:52
that
10:52
stripping
10:53
occurs,
10:53
the
10:53
sense
10:54
of
10:54
individualized
10:55
self,
10:56
the
10:56
separate
10:57
self,
10:57
let's
10:58
call
10:58
it,
10:58
begins
10:59
to
10:59
either
10:59
again,
11:00
as
11:00
I
11:00
said
11:00
earlier,
11:00
be
11:00
stripped
11:01
away
11:01
or
11:01
gracefully
11:02
released.
11:04
Then
11:05
there's
11:05
something
11:06
else
11:06
that
11:06
starts
11:07
to
11:07
emerge,
11:07
and
11:07
I
11:08
think
11:08
it's
11:08
this.
11:10
The
11:10
walls
11:10
of
11:10
Jericho
11:11
come
11:11
tumbling
11:11
down.
11:12
That's
11:12
what
11:12
happens.
11:12
You
11:13
know,
11:13
the
11:14
walls
11:14
I've
11:14
built
11:14
to
11:15
protect
11:15
and
11:15
prop
11:16
up
11:16
this
11:16
sense
11:16
of
11:17
self
11:17
come
11:17
tumbling
11:17
down.
11:18
And
11:19
then
11:19
I
11:19
feel
11:19
myself.
11:21
I
11:21
can
11:22
feel
11:22
myself
11:22
connected
11:23
with
11:23
something
11:25
that's
11:26
already
11:27
there,
11:28
always
11:29
there.
11:31
Yeah.
11:32
And
11:33
people
11:33
have
11:33
many
11:34
different
11:34
ways
11:34
of
11:34
languaging
11:35
this.
11:36
I'm
11:36
not
11:36
interested
11:36
in
11:37
imposing
11:37
my
11:37
language
11:38
on
11:38
Her.
11:41
There
11:41
was
11:41
a
11:42
grandma
11:42
that
11:43
I
11:43
knew.
11:44
She
11:44
was,
11:44
I
11:45
think,
11:45
a
11:45
Christian
11:45
Scientist.
11:46
I
11:46
don't
11:46
recall
11:47
now,
11:47
anyhow,
11:48
very,
11:48
very
11:48
devout.
11:49
And
11:49
her
11:50
daughter
11:50
came
11:50
to
11:51
see
11:51
her,
11:51
a
11:51
young
11:51
granddaughter.
11:52
So,
11:52
excuse
11:53
me,
11:53
came
11:53
to
11:53
see
11:53
her.
11:53
And
11:54
she
11:54
said,
11:54
grandma,
11:55
I've
11:55
been
11:55
reading
11:55
some
11:56
books,
11:56
and
11:57
after
11:57
you
11:57
die,
11:58
you
11:58
know,
11:58
everyone
11:58
that
11:59
you
11:59
love
11:59
will
11:59
be
11:59
there
12:00
to
12:00
meet
12:00
you.
12:01
So
12:01
don't
12:01
worry,
12:01
Grandma.
12:02
You
12:02
don't
12:02
have
12:02
to
12:02
be
12:03
concerned
12:03
about
12:03
this.
12:04
It
12:04
will
12:04
be
12:04
okay.
12:07
And
12:07
Grandma
12:07
got
12:07
terrified
12:09
because
12:09
what
12:10
she
12:10
hadn't
12:10
told
12:10
the
12:10
granddaughter
12:11
but
12:11
had
12:11
told
12:11
me
12:12
was
12:12
that
12:12
her
12:12
husband
12:13
Edgar
12:13
had
12:14
been
12:14
beating
12:14
her
12:14
for
12:14
the
12:15
last
12:15
five
12:15
years
12:15
of
12:16
his
12:16
life
12:16
until
12:16
he
12:17
died.
12:18
And
12:18
now
12:19
the
12:19
ocean.
12:19
The
12:19
notion
12:19
of
12:20
being
12:20
with
12:20
Edgar
12:20
for
12:21
eternity
12:21
was
12:22
terrifying
12:22
to
12:23
her.
12:24
So
12:24
I'm
12:25
very
12:25
careful
12:25
about
12:26
not
12:26
imposing
12:27
any
12:27
ideas
12:29
about
12:29
what
12:29
happens
12:30
after
12:30
we
12:30
die.
12:31
I'm
12:31
very
12:31
careful
12:31
about
12:32
that.
12:32
I
12:32
very
12:32
rarely
12:33
ever
12:33
give
12:33
advice
12:34
about
12:34
it.
12:34
You
12:34
know,
12:34
the
12:35
Buddha
12:35
didn't
12:35
speak
12:35
about
12:35
it
12:36
very
12:36
much
12:36
either,
12:36
come
12:37
to
12:37
think
12:37
of
12:37
it.
12:38
But.
12:38
So
12:39
I'm
12:39
interested
12:40
in
12:40
what
12:40
people
12:40
discover
12:41
in
12:41
the
12:41
process
12:42
rather
12:42
than
12:43
giving
12:44
them
12:44
my
12:44
ideas.
12:47
Having
12:47
a
12:47
great
12:48
sense
12:48
of
12:48
curiosity
12:49
seems
12:49
most
12:49
important.
12:51
Curiosity
12:52
mixed
12:53
with
12:54
the
12:54
emphasis
12:54
you
12:55
give
12:55
and
12:55
Actually,
12:55
one
12:56
of
12:56
your
12:56
five
12:57
invitations
12:57
of
12:58
holding
12:58
don't
12:58
know
12:59
mind
12:59
and
13:00
that
13:00
mystery.
13:00
And
13:01
I.
13:01
I
13:01
think
13:02
I've
13:02
come
13:02
to
13:03
a
13:03
way
13:03
of
13:03
summarizing
13:04
that
13:04
for
13:04
myself,
13:05
which
13:05
is
13:06
trust
13:07
people
13:07
who
13:07
have
13:08
questions.
13:08
Be
13:09
wary
13:09
of
13:09
those
13:09
who
13:10
have
13:10
answers,
13:10
those
13:11
who
13:11
have
13:11
the
13:12
answer.
13:14
Let's
13:14
talk
13:14
about
13:14
that
13:15
for
13:15
a
13:15
minute.
13:15
Roger,
13:16
how
13:16
do
13:16
you
13:16
understand
13:16
don't
13:17
know
13:17
mind?
13:18
How
13:18
is
13:18
it
13:19
and
13:19
how
13:19
can
13:20
you
13:20
imagine
13:20
it
13:20
being
13:20
helpful
13:21
in
13:21
this
13:21
time
13:21
of
13:21
dying?
13:22
Well,
13:23
I
13:23
imagine
13:23
it.
13:24
I'd
13:24
love
13:25
to
13:25
have
13:25
this
13:25
dialogue.
13:26
I
13:26
love
13:26
your
13:26
section
13:27
on
13:28
cultivate
13:28
don't
13:28
know
13:29
mind.
13:29
And
13:29
it
13:29
feels
13:30
really
13:30
important
13:31
and
13:31
feels
13:32
for
13:32
me,
13:34
there's
13:34
been
13:35
a
13:35
deepening
13:36
appreciation
13:37
that
13:38
we
13:38
live
13:38
in.
13:39
Actually,
13:40
when
13:41
we
13:41
let
13:41
go
13:41
of
13:41
our
13:42
presuppositions,
13:43
we
13:43
realize
13:44
that
13:44
we
13:44
live
13:44
in
13:45
bottomless,
13:45
boundless
13:46
mystery.
13:47
And
13:47
you
13:47
ask
13:48
a
13:48
couple
13:48
of
13:48
questions,
13:49
you're
13:49
in
13:49
mystery.
13:50
And
13:51
I
13:51
know
13:52
that
13:52
for
13:52
myself.
13:52
I
13:53
spent
13:53
so
13:53
much
13:54
of
13:54
my
13:54
life
13:54
with
13:55
this
13:55
very
13:56
subtle
13:57
sense
13:57
which
13:58
I
13:58
didn't
13:58
recognize,
13:59
but
13:59
there
13:59
was
14:00
something
14:00
wrong
14:00
with
14:00
me.
14:00
I
14:01
just
14:01
didn't
14:01
understand
14:02
it.
14:03
There
14:03
was
14:03
this
14:03
one
14:04
moment
14:04
I
14:04
still
14:04
remember
14:05
I
14:05
was
14:05
sitting
14:05
on
14:05
the
14:05
living
14:06
room
14:06
couch
14:06
where
14:06
I
14:06
realized,
14:07
oh,
14:07
wait
14:08
a
14:08
minute.
14:08
The
14:08
idea
14:09
that
14:09
I
14:09
don't
14:09
understand
14:10
things
14:10
isn't
14:11
a
14:11
problem,
14:11
it's
14:11
the
14:12
reality.
14:12
And
14:13
I
14:13
was
14:13
suffering,
14:13
and
14:14
it
14:14
was
14:14
like
14:14
letting
14:14
go
14:15
a
14:15
burden
14:15
I
14:15
didn't
14:15
even
14:16
know
14:16
I'd
14:16
been
14:16
carrying.
14:18
It
14:18
feels
14:18
like
14:19
it's
14:19
such
14:19
a
14:19
helpful
14:20
perspective.
14:21
To
14:21
realize
14:22
that
14:23
it's
14:23
all
14:24
mystery.
14:25
And
14:25
yes,
14:26
within
14:26
the
14:27
mystery,
14:27
we
14:28
have
14:28
to
14:29
make
14:29
assumptions
14:31
and
14:32
act
14:32
and
14:33
be
14:33
responsible.
14:34
But
14:35
to
14:35
hold
14:36
it
14:36
within
14:36
the
14:36
context
14:37
of
14:37
what
14:37
you
14:37
call
14:38
don't
14:38
know
14:38
mind
14:39
feels
14:40
not
14:40
knowing
14:40
goes
14:41
from
14:41
being
14:41
a
14:41
problem
14:42
to
14:42
being
14:42
a
14:42
relief.
14:44
Beautiful.
14:45
Beautiful.
14:46
Yeah.
14:46
I
14:46
mean,
14:46
we
14:46
associate
14:47
it
14:47
with
14:47
ignorance,
14:48
of
14:48
course,
14:48
and
14:48
it's
14:48
not.
14:48
Don't
14:49
know
14:49
mind
14:49
is
14:49
not
14:49
ignorance.
14:50
I'm
14:50
not
14:50
encouraging
14:51
that
14:51
in
14:51
some
14:51
ways,
14:52
you
14:52
know,
14:53
and
14:54
many
14:54
people
14:55
think
14:55
they
14:56
don't
14:56
know,
14:56
but
14:57
honestly,
14:59
it
14:59
would
14:59
be
14:59
better
15:00
if
15:00
they
15:00
didn't
15:00
actually
15:01
know.
15:01
That
15:02
would
15:02
be
15:02
better.
15:03
Don't
15:03
know
15:03
mind
15:04
is
15:04
just.
15:04
For
15:04
me,
15:04
it's
15:05
just
15:05
a
15:05
mind
15:05
of
15:05
wonder
15:06
and
15:06
curiosity
15:07
and
15:08
Tsuzuki
15:08
Roshi's
15:09
famous
15:09
beginner's
15:10
mind,
15:10
you
15:10
know.
15:12
So
15:12
can
15:13
you
15:13
imagine
15:14
meeting
15:14
dying
15:15
with
15:15
a
15:16
don't
15:16
know
15:16
mind
15:18
instead
15:18
of
15:18
one
15:19
that's
15:19
fixed
15:19
and
15:20
expecting
15:20
the
15:21
next
15:21
experience
15:22
to
15:22
emerge,
15:23
you
15:23
know,
15:24
don't
15:25
know,
15:25
I
15:25
don't
15:26
know.
15:26
That
15:27
feels
15:27
so
15:28
free
15:28
to
15:28
me,
15:28
you
15:29
know,
15:29
that
15:29
when
15:29
we
15:30
let
15:30
go
15:30
into
15:30
that,
15:31
into
15:31
that
15:31
uncertainty,
15:33
that
15:33
is
15:33
the
15:33
most
15:34
beautiful
15:34
place
15:34
to
15:35
be.
15:35
My
15:36
first
15:36
experience
15:36
of
15:37
being
15:37
with
15:37
somebody
15:38
that
15:38
I
15:39
knew
15:39
was
15:39
a
15:40
big
15:40
part
15:40
of
15:40
my
15:40
life
15:41
died
15:41
was
15:42
my
15:42
grandmother.
15:43
And
15:44
she
15:44
was
15:44
a
15:44
very
15:45
religious
15:45
woman.
15:46
My
15:46
grandfather
15:47
died
15:47
when
15:47
I
15:47
was
15:47
just
15:47
a
15:47
child.
15:48
I
15:48
mean,
15:48
an
15:48
infant.
15:49
I
15:49
didn't
15:49
know
15:49
him,
15:50
but
15:51
I
15:51
knew
15:51
her.
15:51
And
15:52
they
15:52
lived
15:52
out
15:52
in
15:52
this
15:53
farm
15:53
in
15:54
rural
15:54
Louisiana,
15:55
down
15:55
in
15:55
the
15:55
Cajun
15:56
country.
15:57
And
15:58
every
15:58
morning
15:58
she
15:58
used
15:59
to
15:59
sit
15:59
down
15:59
on
15:59
her
16:00
back
16:00
porch
16:00
and
16:00
do
16:01
her
16:01
rosary.
16:02
That
16:02
was
16:02
her
16:03
time
16:03
in
16:03
the
16:03
morning.
16:03
That's
16:04
like
16:04
the
16:04
first
16:05
person
16:05
I
16:06
ever
16:06
knew
16:06
how
16:06
to
16:06
spiritual
16:07
practice,
16:07
which
16:07
I
16:07
didn't
16:08
frame
16:08
it
16:08
that
16:08
way
16:09
now,
16:09
but
16:09
thinking
16:09
back.
16:11
But
16:11
she
16:11
was
16:11
passing
16:13
and
16:13
you
16:13
know,
16:14
her
16:14
whole
16:14
family
16:14
was
16:14
around
16:15
her.
16:15
She
16:15
was
16:15
the
16:15
matriarch.
16:16
I
16:16
mean,
16:16
they
16:16
had
16:16
eight
16:17
kids
16:17
and
16:17
they
16:17
had
16:17
kids,
16:18
and
16:18
this
16:18
is
16:18
a
16:19
big,
16:19
big
16:19
family.
16:20
And
16:21
I
16:21
went
16:22
in
16:23
to
16:23
sit
16:23
with
16:24
her,
16:24
and
16:24
she
16:24
was
16:25
actually
16:25
having
16:25
visions
16:26
of
16:27
family
16:28
that
16:29
she's
16:29
seen.
16:29
It
16:29
was
16:29
like
16:30
she's
16:30
really
16:30
in
16:31
a
16:32
blessed
16:32
state.
16:33
And
16:33
this
16:33
was
16:34
like
16:34
1970
16:35
or
16:35
71,
16:35
like
16:36
that.
16:36
And
16:36
I
16:36
had
16:36
long
16:36
hair.
16:37
I
16:38
was
16:38
pretty
16:39
much
16:39
a
16:39
hippie,
16:39
I
16:39
guess
16:40
I
16:40
looked
16:40
like
16:40
one
16:40
anyway.
16:41
And
16:41
the
16:41
rest
16:42
of
16:42
the
16:42
family,
16:42
they
16:43
weren't
16:43
unkind
16:43
to
16:43
me,
16:44
but
16:44
they
16:44
weren't
16:44
too
16:44
comfortable
16:45
with
16:45
my
16:45
long
16:45
blonde
16:46
hair.
16:46
And
16:46
I
16:47
had
16:47
my
16:47
guitar
16:47
and
16:47
I
16:48
would
16:48
sing
16:48
her
16:48
song.
16:49
I
16:49
would
16:49
sing
16:49
her
16:49
psalms
16:50
and
16:50
stuff
16:51
that
16:51
I
16:51
knew
16:51
to
16:52
music.
16:52
And
16:52
she
16:53
was
16:53
just
16:53
like.
16:54
She
16:54
was
16:55
just
16:55
blissed
16:55
out
16:55
by
16:56
it.
16:56
Said,
16:56
you
16:56
know,
16:57
I
16:57
was
16:57
an
16:57
angel.
16:58
You
16:58
know,
17:00
that's
17:01
Cajun
17:01
French
17:01
for
17:02
dear
17:02
child
17:02
or
17:02
something
17:03
like
17:03
that.
17:03
And
17:04
she
17:04
was
17:04
so.
17:05
Yeah.
17:05
So
17:06
my.
17:06
My
17:06
first
17:06
experience
17:07
was
17:07
like,
17:08
oh,
17:08
this
17:09
is
17:09
not
17:09
a
17:09
bad
17:09
thing.
17:09
And
17:10
this
17:10
may
17:10
sound
17:10
a
17:11
little
17:11
pie
17:12
in
17:12
the
17:12
sky
17:12
or
17:12
anything,
17:13
but
17:13
that
17:13
was
17:13
my
17:13
true
17:14
experience
17:15
with
17:15
the
17:15
passing
17:16
of
17:16
my
17:16
grandmother.
17:17
There
17:17
was
17:17
a
17:18
lot
17:18
of
17:18
love
17:18
there.
17:18
And
17:19
I
17:19
don't
17:20
know
17:20
if
17:20
that's
17:20
because.
17:20
Well,
17:21
because
17:21
she
17:22
was
17:23
so
17:23
beloved,
17:24
but
17:24
because
17:24
she
17:24
had
17:25
her
17:25
own,
17:25
you
17:26
know,
17:26
spiritual
17:26
connection
17:27
and
17:27
a
17:28
very
17:28
devout
17:28
Catholic
17:29
and
17:29
that
17:30
she
17:30
was.
17:31
I
17:32
don't
17:32
know.
17:32
But
17:33
I
17:33
left
17:34
feeling
17:36
blessed.
17:36
I
17:37
left
17:37
feeling
17:39
like
17:39
I'd
17:40
been
17:41
there
17:41
for
17:41
something
17:41
very
17:42
beautiful.
17:43
I'm
17:44
not
17:44
trying
17:44
to
17:44
take
17:44
away
17:45
from
17:45
the
17:45
experience,
17:45
but
17:46
that
17:46
was
17:46
really
17:46
the
17:46
experience
17:47
of
17:47
it.
17:50
One
17:50
of
17:50
the
17:50
things
17:51
that's
17:51
emerging
17:52
lately
17:53
that's
17:53
being
17:54
talked
17:54
about
17:54
more
17:54
is
17:54
a
17:54
kind
17:55
of
17:55
terminal
17:56
lucidity,
17:57
actually,
17:57
that
17:57
happens
17:58
for
17:58
people.
17:58
People
17:59
who
17:59
have
17:59
been
18:00
sometimes
18:01
experiencing
18:01
dementia
18:02
or
18:02
confusion
18:02
of
18:03
one
18:03
kind
18:03
or
18:03
another
18:04
through
18:04
the
18:04
dying
18:04
process,
18:05
sometimes
18:06
in
18:06
the
18:06
final
18:07
days,
18:07
let's
18:08
call
18:08
it
18:08
moments.
18:08
There's
18:09
a
18:09
kind
18:09
of
18:09
lucidity
18:10
that's
18:10
beginning
18:10
to
18:10
emerge
18:11
for
18:11
people
18:11
where
18:12
people
18:12
can
18:12
communicate
18:13
clearly
18:13
and
18:13
they
18:14
haven't
18:14
been
18:14
able
18:14
to
18:14
communicate
18:15
in
18:16
years.
18:17
And
18:17
this
18:18
isn't
18:18
magic
18:19
and
18:19
it
18:19
isn't
18:19
a
18:19
miracle,
18:20
but
18:21
science
18:21
is
18:21
also
18:21
having
18:22
a
18:22
difficult
18:22
time
18:22
understanding
18:23
it.
18:24
What
18:24
actually
18:24
happens
18:25
that
18:26
would
18:26
allow
18:26
someone
18:26
to
18:27
speak
18:27
clearly
18:28
when
18:29
they
18:29
haven't
18:29
been
18:29
able
18:29
to
18:30
for
18:30
years?
18:30
Yeah.
18:32
So
18:32
I
18:32
don't
18:32
know.
18:33
I
18:33
can't
18:33
explain
18:33
it,
18:33
but
18:34
I
18:34
witnessed
18:34
it
18:35
and,
18:35
you
18:35
know,
18:36
it's
18:36
so
18:36
much
18:36
of
18:36
the
18:36
mystery
18:37
that
18:37
Roger
18:38
was
18:38
talking
18:38
about
18:38
earlier.
18:40
Wow.
18:41
Wow.
18:41
And
18:42
that
18:42
your,
18:42
you
18:42
know,
18:42
kindness
18:43
to
18:43
your
18:44
grandma
18:44
could
18:45
be
18:45
felt.
18:45
That's
18:46
a
18:46
beautiful
18:46
thing,
18:47
isn't
18:47
it?
18:48
Yes.
18:49
Was,
18:50
forget
18:51
about
18:51
the
18:51
impact
18:51
of
18:52
simple
18:52
human
18:52
kindness.
18:53
I
18:53
think
18:53
we
18:54
get
18:54
so
18:54
caught
18:54
up
18:54
in
18:54
our
18:55
ideas
18:56
and
18:56
protocols
18:57
and
18:57
et
18:57
cetera,
18:58
we
18:58
forget
18:58
about
18:58
simple
18:59
human
18:59
kindness.
19:00
Yeah.
19:01
Beautifully
19:01
said.
19:01
Very
19:02
simple.
19:03
Was
19:03
it
19:03
Aldous
19:04
Huxley
19:04
who
19:04
said,
19:05
it's
19:05
somewhat
19:06
humbling
19:06
to
19:07
come
19:07
to
19:07
the
19:07
end
19:07
of
19:07
my
19:08
life
19:08
and
19:08
realize
19:08
I
19:08
have
19:09
nothing,
19:09
no
19:10
better
19:10
wisdom
19:10
to
19:11
impart
19:11
than
19:11
try
19:11
to
19:11
be
19:12
a
19:12
little
19:12
kinder?
19:14
Yeah.
19:14
I
19:14
think
19:15
it's
19:15
really
19:15
important
19:16
for
19:16
me,
19:16
at
19:16
least
19:17
at
19:17
the
19:17
hospice,
19:17
it
19:17
was
19:18
a
19:18
guiding
19:18
principle.
19:19
Just
19:19
try
19:19
their
19:20
best
19:20
to
19:20
be
19:21
kind
19:22
and
19:22
see
19:22
what
19:23
the
19:23
impact
19:23
is
19:23
when
19:24
you
19:24
do
19:24
that.
19:26
Yeah.
19:26
Beautiful.
19:29
Your
19:29
life
19:29
has
19:30
been
19:30
shaped
19:31
by
19:31
your
19:32
contact
19:33
and
19:33
being
19:33
with
19:33
the
19:34
dying.
19:34
And
19:34
one
19:35
of
19:35
the
19:35
things
19:35
that
19:35
struck
19:36
me
19:37
among
19:37
friends
19:38
and
19:38
acquaintances
19:39
who
19:39
have
19:40
worked
19:40
with
19:40
the
19:40
dying
19:40
in
19:41
hospice,
19:41
in
19:41
your
19:41
Zen
19:42
hospice
19:42
and
19:43
other
19:43
places,
19:45
has
19:45
been
19:46
the
19:46
frequency
19:47
with
19:47
which
19:47
they
19:48
report
19:48
being
19:49
deeply
19:49
touched
19:50
and
19:50
transformed
19:51
by
19:52
the
19:52
experience.
19:54
And
19:54
do
19:55
you
19:55
have
19:55
any
19:55
suggestions
19:56
for
19:56
how
19:56
the
19:57
rest
19:57
of
19:57
us
19:57
can
19:58
imbibe
19:59
of
19:59
this
20:00
learning.
20:00
I
20:01
mean,
20:02
not
20:02
everyone's
20:02
going
20:03
to
20:03
volunteer
20:03
at
20:04
a
20:04
hospice.
20:05
Most
20:06
of
20:06
us
20:06
at
20:06
some
20:06
stage
20:07
will
20:07
probably
20:08
be
20:09
caring
20:09
for
20:09
people
20:10
who
20:10
die.
20:10
And
20:10
of
20:11
course,
20:11
all
20:11
of
20:11
us
20:11
will
20:11
face
20:12
our
20:12
own.
20:12
But
20:13
as
20:13
you.
20:13
Part
20:14
of
20:14
the
20:14
wisdom
20:14
you're
20:14
imparting
20:15
is
20:15
it's
20:15
a
20:15
good
20:15
thing
20:16
to
20:16
begin
20:17
this
20:17
learning
20:17
process
20:18
before.
20:19
Before
20:19
we're
20:19
dying.
20:20
How
20:21
can
20:21
we
20:22
learn,
20:23
begin
20:23
to
20:24
begin
20:24
this
20:24
learning
20:25
process?
20:28
Good
20:28
question,
20:29
Roger.
20:29
Let
20:30
me
20:30
begin
20:30
by
20:30
saying
20:31
I
20:32
don't
20:32
think
20:32
that
20:32
caring
20:33
for
20:33
the
20:33
dying
20:34
is
20:34
any
20:34
more
20:34
important
20:34
than
20:34
gardening.
20:35
Actually,
20:36
I
20:36
think
20:36
you
20:37
could
20:37
do
20:37
both
20:37
with
20:38
great
20:38
attention,
20:39
and
20:39
there'd
20:40
be
20:40
deep
20:40
learning
20:40
that
20:41
would
20:41
come
20:41
from
20:41
either
20:42
of
20:42
those
20:42
experiences.
20:44
But.
20:44
But
20:44
I
20:45
think
20:45
that
20:46
one
20:46
of
20:47
the
20:47
simple
20:47
practices
20:48
we
20:48
can
20:48
do
20:49
is
20:50
pay
20:50
attention
20:50
to
20:51
endings.
20:52
You
20:52
know,
20:53
how
20:53
do
20:53
we
20:53
end
20:53
something?
20:54
You
20:54
know,
20:54
how
20:54
do
20:55
we
20:55
end
20:55
a
20:55
meal?
20:55
How
20:56
do
20:56
we
20:56
end
20:56
the
20:56
conversation
20:57
when
20:57
we
20:58
go
20:58
to
20:58
one
20:58
of
20:58
these
20:58
conferences
20:59
that
20:59
we've
21:00
been
21:00
talking
21:00
about?
21:01
How
21:01
do
21:01
we
21:02
end
21:02
it?
21:02
Do
21:02
we
21:03
leave
21:03
before
21:03
it's
21:03
over?
21:04
You
21:04
know,
21:05
what
21:05
are
21:05
the
21:06
lessons
21:06
we've
21:06
been
21:06
taught
21:07
around
21:07
ending
21:08
and
21:08
who
21:08
taught
21:08
them
21:09
to
21:09
us,
21:09
and
21:09
do
21:10
we
21:10
want
21:10
to
21:10
continue
21:10
to
21:10
carry
21:11
them
21:11
on?
21:14
So
21:14
I
21:14
think
21:14
paying
21:15
attention
21:15
to
21:16
the
21:16
way
21:16
in
21:16
which
21:16
we
21:16
meet
21:17
endings
21:17
is
21:17
really
21:18
important.
21:19
The
21:19
end
21:20
of
21:20
this
21:20
breath,
21:20
the
21:21
end
21:21
of
21:21
this
21:21
sentence,
21:26
and
21:27
I
21:27
might
21:27
add,
21:29
how
21:30
do
21:30
we
21:30
love?
21:31
You
21:32
know,
21:32
one
21:32
of
21:32
the
21:32
big
21:32
questions
21:33
that's
21:33
always
21:33
there
21:34
in
21:34
one
21:35
way
21:35
or
21:35
another
21:36
is
21:36
for
21:36
people
21:37
at
21:37
the
21:37
end
21:37
of
21:37
life
21:37
is,
21:38
am
21:38
I
21:38
loved?
21:40
Did
21:40
I
21:40
love?
21:40
Well,
21:41
you
21:41
know,
21:41
not
21:42
in
21:42
a
21:42
critical
21:42
way,
21:43
but,
21:43
you
21:43
know,
21:43
did
21:43
I
21:44
give
21:44
the
21:44
love
21:44
I
21:44
really
21:45
wanted
21:45
to
21:45
give?
21:46
And,
21:46
you
21:46
know,
21:46
if
21:47
those
21:47
two
21:47
questions
21:47
are
21:47
important
21:48
at
21:48
the
21:48
end
21:48
of
21:48
our
21:48
life,
21:48
well,
21:49
certainly
21:49
they're
21:49
important
21:49
now.
21:51
Those
21:51
two
21:51
practices
21:52
of
21:52
looking
21:53
at
21:53
the
21:53
way
21:53
in
21:53
which
21:54
we
21:54
love
21:54
and
21:54
how
21:55
we.
21:55
Whether
21:55
we
21:55
feel
21:56
ourself
21:56
being
21:56
loved
21:57
and
21:57
watching
21:58
endings,
21:58
I
21:58
think
21:58
they're
21:59
important.
21:59
But
22:00
also,
22:01
last
22:01
thing
22:01
I'll
22:01
say
22:02
on
22:02
this,
22:02
pardon
22:02
me,
22:03
that
22:04
I
22:04
think
22:04
that
22:06
this
22:07
experience
22:07
of
22:07
mystery
22:08
that
22:08
you
22:08
referenced
22:09
earlier
22:09
is
22:10
always
22:10
there
22:10
for
22:10
us,
22:12
and
22:12
we
22:13
can
22:13
open
22:13
our
22:13
attention
22:14
to
22:14
that.
22:14
We
22:15
can
22:15
open
22:15
our
22:16
attention
22:16
to
22:16
when
22:16
we're
22:17
swept
22:17
away,
22:18
so
22:18
to
22:18
speak.
22:19
What's
22:20
it
22:20
like
22:20
in
22:20
a
22:21
concert
22:22
when
22:22
we
22:23
enter
22:23
the
22:23
mystery
22:24
through
22:24
the
22:25
music
22:25
that's
22:25
being
22:26
performed?
22:28
What's
22:28
it
22:28
like
22:28
when
22:29
we
22:29
relax
22:29
the
22:30
sense
22:30
of
22:30
self
22:31
a
22:31
little
22:31
bit?
22:32
I
22:32
think
22:32
all
22:32
of
22:32
these
22:33
things
22:33
are
22:33
preparations
22:34
for
22:34
dying.
22:36
One
22:36
of
22:36
the
22:36
questions
22:36
I
22:37
ask
22:37
people
22:37
regularly
22:38
is,
22:39
do
22:39
you
22:39
think
22:39
that
22:39
dying
22:40
will
22:40
happen
22:40
later?
22:41
And,
22:42
you
22:42
know,
22:42
if
22:42
I'm
22:42
in
22:42
an
22:43
audience
22:43
of
22:43
people,
22:43
everybody's
22:44
hands
22:44
go
22:44
up.
22:44
Of
22:45
course,
22:45
everybody
22:45
thinks
22:45
it'll
22:46
be
22:46
later.
22:46
Well,
22:47
impermanence
22:47
is
22:48
not
22:48
later.
22:49
Impermanence
22:50
is
22:50
here
22:51
in
22:51
this
22:51
very
22:52
moment.
22:52
You
22:52
know,
22:52
it's
22:53
woven
22:53
into
22:53
the
22:53
very
22:53
fabric
22:54
of
22:54
life.
22:55
And
22:55
so
22:55
if
22:55
we
22:56
attend
22:56
to
22:56
that,
22:56
if
22:57
we
22:57
attend
22:57
to
22:57
the
22:57
constant
22:58
change
22:58
of
22:59
things,
23:00
then
23:01
we
23:01
won't
23:01
be
23:02
surprised
23:02
by
23:02
our
23:03
dying.
23:03
I
23:03
think.
23:06
Yeah,
23:06
attending
23:06
to
23:07
the
23:07
constant
23:08
change
23:08
of
23:08
things.
23:08
Not
23:09
just
23:09
that
23:09
the
23:09
seasons
23:10
come
23:10
and
23:10
go
23:10
and
23:10
relationships
23:11
come
23:11
and
23:11
go,
23:11
but
23:13
that
23:13
we
23:13
ourselves
23:14
are
23:14
both
23:16
here
23:16
and
23:16
disappearing.
23:19
So
23:19
then
23:20
we
23:20
don't
23:20
hold
23:21
so
23:21
tightly
23:21
to
23:21
our
23:22
treasured
23:22
beliefs
23:23
and
23:23
to
23:23
our
23:23
fixed
23:24
ideas
23:24
about
23:25
who
23:25
we
23:25
are
23:25
and
23:25
to
23:26
our
23:26
sense
23:27
of
23:27
separateness.
23:30
I
23:30
think
23:30
these
23:30
are
23:31
ways
23:31
of
23:32
bringing
23:32
this
23:32
into
23:32
our
23:33
day
23:33
to
23:33
day
23:33
life
23:34
that
23:35
can
23:35
give
23:35
us
23:35
some
23:36
of
23:36
the
23:36
same
23:36
experience
23:36
we
23:37
have
23:37
in
23:38
being
23:38
with
23:38
dying,
23:39
whether
23:39
it's
23:39
our
23:39
own
23:39
or
23:40
dying
23:40
of
23:40
someone
23:41
else.
23:43
I
23:43
don't
23:43
know,
23:44
maybe
23:44
those
23:44
are
23:44
just
23:44
words.
23:47
Maybe
23:47
they
23:47
are,
23:48
but
23:48
they
23:48
certainly
23:49
seem
23:49
to
23:49
be
23:49
pointing
23:49
to
23:50
something
23:50
very
23:51
important.
23:54
And
23:54
you're
23:55
saying
23:55
maybe
23:55
the
23:56
words.
23:56
Yeah.
23:57
And
23:58
all
23:58
this
23:59
held
23:59
within
23:59
the
23:59
mystery
24:00
as
24:00
we
24:00
were
24:00
talking
24:01
about.
24:01
I
24:01
mean,
24:02
there's
24:02
a.
24:02
I
24:03
think
24:03
in
24:03
my
24:03
book,
24:03
I
24:04
put
24:04
this
24:04
in.
24:04
I
24:04
don't
24:04
recall.
24:05
I
24:05
was
24:05
in
24:05
Japan
24:06
earlier
24:06
this
24:06
year
24:06
and
24:07
at
24:08
the
24:08
height
24:08
of
24:08
cherry
24:08
blossom
24:09
season.
24:09
Ah,
24:10
it's
24:10
gorgeous.
24:10
You've
24:11
been
24:11
there.
24:11
And
24:11
it's,
24:12
you
24:12
know,
24:12
these
24:12
exquisite
24:13
blossoms
24:13
that
24:14
cover
24:14
the
24:14
hillside
24:14
that
24:15
last
24:15
only
24:15
for
24:15
a
24:15
few
24:15
weeks.
24:17
Why
24:17
are
24:17
those
24:18
blossoms
24:19
so
24:19
beautiful
24:19
to
24:20
us?
24:21
Isn't
24:21
it
24:21
their,
24:23
the
24:23
brevity
24:23
of
24:24
their
24:24
lives
24:24
that
24:25
capture
24:25
us,
24:25
that
24:26
invite
24:27
us
24:27
into
24:28
their
24:28
exquisiteness?
24:30
I
24:30
think
24:30
that's
24:31
part
24:31
of
24:31
it.
24:32
So,
24:32
you
24:32
know,
24:33
there's
24:33
a
24:33
myriad
24:34
of
24:34
ways
24:34
that
24:34
we
24:35
can
24:35
recognize
24:35
that
24:36
in
24:36
our
24:36
day
24:36
to
24:37
day
24:37
lives.
24:38
And
24:39
if
24:39
we
24:39
don't
24:40
banish
24:40
death
24:40
from
24:41
life,
24:43
if
24:43
we
24:43
see
24:44
that
24:44
it's
24:44
a
24:44
package
24:45
deal,
24:45
get
24:45
born
24:46
and
24:46
we
24:46
die.
24:47
Shoji,
24:48
the
24:49
famous
24:49
Japanese
24:50
Zen
24:50
term,
24:51
you
24:51
know,
24:51
that
24:51
means
24:52
life,
24:52
death.
24:52
One
24:53
thing,
24:54
one
24:54
thing.
24:56
You
24:57
know,
24:57
when
24:57
I
24:57
was
24:57
talking
24:58
the
24:58
other
24:58
day,
24:58
I
24:58
said,
24:59
you
24:59
know,
24:59
mentioned
24:59
what
24:59
if
25:00
you
25:00
could
25:00
have
25:00
a
25:01
day
25:01
of
25:01
life
25:02
for
25:03
every
25:03
grain
25:03
of
25:03
sand
25:04
on
25:04
the
25:04
planet
25:04
Earth?
25:06
What
25:06
a
25:07
horrifying
25:08
thought
25:09
that
25:09
is.
25:09
I'm
25:10
just,
25:10
oh
25:10
my
25:11
God,
25:11
no.
25:12
And
25:13
then
25:13
I
25:13
got
25:13
the
25:13
inner
25:14
vision
25:14
of
25:14
the
25:14
wave
25:15
returning
25:15
to
25:16
the
25:16
sea.
25:17
I'm
25:17
like,
25:18
okay,
25:19
all
25:19
right,
25:20
that
25:21
feels
25:21
good.
25:23
But
25:24
this
25:24
guy
25:24
continuing
25:25
for
25:26
ad
25:26
infinitum
25:27
is
25:27
like,
25:29
it's
25:29
not
25:29
what
25:29
I
25:29
want
25:29
either.
25:30
I
25:31
think
25:31
that
25:31
would
25:31
be
25:31
hell.
25:32
But
25:32
a
25:32
wave
25:33
returning
25:33
to
25:33
the
25:33
ocean
25:34
is.
25:36
Yeah,
25:36
yeah,
25:36
that's
25:37
a
25:37
beautiful
25:37
metaphor.
25:38
But
25:38
you
25:38
know,
25:38
the
25:38
truth
25:39
is
25:39
we
25:39
rely
25:39
on
25:40
impermanence,
25:40
don't
25:40
we?
25:41
I
25:41
mean,
25:42
first
25:42
of
25:42
all,
25:42
impermanence
25:43
is
25:43
not
25:43
just
25:43
the
25:43
ending
25:43
of
25:44
Things.
25:44
Impermanence
25:45
is
25:45
the
25:45
law
25:45
of
25:45
change
25:46
and
25:46
becoming.
25:46
That's
25:47
how
25:47
we
25:47
can
25:47
understand
25:47
it.
25:48
So
25:48
we
25:48
rely
25:48
on
25:49
it,
25:49
right?
25:49
That.
25:49
That
25:50
cold
25:50
you
25:50
have
25:50
today,
25:50
it
25:51
won't
25:51
last
25:51
forever.
25:52
You
25:52
know,
25:52
your
25:52
knee
25:52
pain's
25:53
gonna
25:53
go
25:53
away.
25:54
So
25:55
it's
25:55
not
25:55
just,
25:56
oh,
25:56
isn't
25:57
it
25:57
horrible
25:57
that
25:57
things
25:58
that
25:58
people
25:59
die.
25:59
I
26:00
think
26:00
we
26:00
rely
26:00
on
26:00
it.
26:01
You
26:01
know,
26:01
if
26:01
not
26:02
for
26:02
impermanence.
26:05
We.
26:05
Wouldn'T
26:06
have
26:06
the
26:06
forest.
26:07
Your
26:07
children
26:07
wouldn't
26:08
grow
26:08
up
26:08
to
26:08
be
26:08
scientists.
26:09
We
26:09
wouldn't
26:10
have.
26:11
We
26:11
wouldn't
26:11
know
26:12
the
26:12
preciousness
26:13
of
26:13
this
26:13
life.
26:15
Frank.
26:16
Our
26:16
cultural
26:17
attitudes
26:19
have
26:19
shifted
26:20
so
26:20
dramatically
26:21
with
26:21
regard
26:22
to
26:22
dying.
26:23
From
26:25
days
26:25
of
26:25
my
26:26
early
26:26
medical
26:26
training
26:27
when
26:27
there
26:27
was
26:27
so
26:28
little
26:28
written
26:28
about
26:28
it,
26:29
Kubler
26:29
Ross's
26:30
book
26:30
was
26:30
the
26:30
big
26:31
thing.
26:33
And
26:34
so
26:34
there
26:35
have
26:35
been
26:35
dramatic
26:36
changes,
26:36
and
26:37
you've
26:37
been
26:37
a
26:38
pioneer
26:38
in
26:39
facilitating
26:39
those
26:40
changes.
26:41
But
26:41
what
26:42
more
26:42
would
26:43
you
26:43
like
26:43
to
26:43
see
26:44
in
26:45
the
26:45
way
26:45
of
26:45
cultural
26:46
transformation
26:47
with
26:47
regard
26:47
to
26:48
death
26:48
and
26:48
dying?
26:53
Well,
26:55
you
26:55
know,
26:56
we
26:56
have,
26:56
at
26:57
the
26:57
local
26:57
ymca,
26:58
we
26:58
have
26:58
Red
26:59
Cross
26:59
life
26:59
saving
27:00
courses
27:00
and
27:01
swimming
27:01
courses.
27:02
You
27:02
know,
27:02
wouldn't
27:02
it
27:03
be
27:03
wonderful
27:03
if
27:04
we
27:04
included
27:05
some
27:05
ongoing
27:06
education
27:06
about
27:07
this
27:07
in
27:07
our
27:07
life,
27:08
in
27:08
our
27:08
schools?
27:09
That's
27:09
the
27:09
first
27:10
thing
27:10
that
27:10
comes
27:10
to
27:10
mind.
27:10
Suppose
27:11
we
27:11
had
27:11
greater
27:12
conversations
27:12
about
27:13
it.
27:13
And
27:13
that's
27:13
beginning
27:13
to
27:14
happen.
27:14
You
27:14
know,
27:14
there
27:14
are
27:15
death
27:15
cafes
27:16
now,
27:16
and
27:16
there's
27:16
a
27:16
wonderful
27:17
program
27:17
called
27:17
Death
27:17
Over
27:18
Dinner
27:18
where
27:19
people
27:19
begin
27:19
to
27:20
have
27:20
these
27:20
conversations
27:21
where,
27:22
you
27:22
know,
27:23
it's
27:23
not
27:23
so
27:23
forbidden.
27:24
So
27:24
I
27:24
think
27:24
that's
27:25
part
27:25
of.
27:26
First
27:26
thing
27:26
that
27:26
comes
27:26
to
27:27
mind
27:27
is
27:27
how
27:27
do
27:28
we
27:28
have
27:28
the
27:28
conversation?
27:29
The
27:29
second
27:29
is
27:30
that
27:30
there
27:30
have
27:31
been
27:31
experiences
27:32
like
27:33
physician
27:33
assisted
27:34
death,
27:34
which
27:35
is
27:35
a
27:35
kind
27:36
of
27:36
shock
27:36
jock
27:37
to
27:37
this
27:37
conversation.
27:39
People
27:39
have
27:39
more
27:40
agency
27:40
now
27:40
around
27:41
their
27:41
dying,
27:41
and
27:42
I
27:42
think
27:42
that's
27:43
a
27:43
good
27:43
thing.
27:44
I
27:44
don't
27:44
have
27:44
a
27:44
moral
27:45
judgment
27:45
around
27:45
this
27:46
at
27:46
all.
27:47
And
27:47
I
27:47
think
27:47
there's
27:47
lots
27:48
of
27:48
ways
27:48
in
27:48
which
27:48
people
27:48
die.
27:49
And
27:49
now
27:49
this
27:50
is
27:50
an
27:50
option
27:50
for
27:50
people
27:51
in
27:51
many
27:51
places
27:52
in
27:52
the
27:52
world,
27:52
and
27:53
I'm
27:53
grateful
27:53
for
27:54
it.
27:54
Yeah.
27:55
I
27:55
have
27:55
a
27:56
friend
27:56
who's
27:56
a
27:56
doctor
27:57
in
27:57
the
27:57
Netherlands,
27:57
and
27:58
he
27:58
had
27:58
done
27:58
that,
27:59
assisted
27:59
people
27:59
to
28:00
die.
28:00
And
28:00
when
28:00
he
28:00
would
28:01
talk
28:01
about
28:02
it,
28:02
he
28:02
would
28:02
just
28:02
kind
28:03
of
28:03
light
28:03
up
28:04
like
28:04
it
28:04
had
28:04
been
28:05
a
28:05
holy
28:05
experience.
28:06
And
28:06
such
28:06
gratitude
28:07
from
28:07
the
28:08
person
28:08
that
28:08
he
28:09
helped
28:09
die
28:09
and
28:10
the
28:10
family.
28:10
It
28:10
was
28:11
quite.
28:12
It
28:12
was
28:12
quite,
28:12
you
28:13
know,
28:13
and
28:13
his
28:13
experience.
28:14
And
28:14
it
28:14
just
28:14
seems
28:15
like
28:15
we
28:15
want
28:15
to
28:16
hold
28:16
on
28:16
to
28:16
life,
28:17
you
28:17
know,
28:17
matter
28:17
what
28:18
the
28:18
quality
28:18
and
28:18
everything.
28:19
It's
28:19
like
28:19
Adyashanti
28:20
said,
28:20
we
28:21
have
28:21
more
28:21
compassion
28:21
for
28:22
our
28:22
dogs
28:23
than
28:23
we
28:24
do
28:24
for
28:24
human
28:24
beings
28:25
when
28:25
it
28:25
comes
28:25
to
28:26
assisting
28:26
them
28:26
to
28:27
die
28:27
in
28:27
the
28:27
End.
28:27
So,
28:28
yeah,
28:29
I
28:29
mean,
28:29
what's
28:30
beautiful
28:30
about
28:30
physician
28:31
assisted
28:31
death,
28:31
whether
28:32
it's
28:32
here
28:32
or
28:32
elsewhere
28:33
in
28:33
the
28:33
world,
28:33
is
28:34
that
28:35
the
28:35
choice
28:36
is
28:36
living
28:37
with
28:37
the
28:37
person
28:38
who
28:38
is
28:38
going
28:39
through
28:39
this
28:39
experience,
28:40
the
28:40
person
28:40
who's
28:40
dying,
28:41
you
28:41
know,
28:41
and
28:42
so
28:42
I
28:42
want
28:42
to
28:42
make
28:42
sure
28:42
that
28:42
we
28:43
differentiate
28:43
it
28:43
from
28:44
suicide,
28:44
that
28:44
we
28:44
differentiate
28:45
it
28:45
from
28:45
euthanasia,
28:46
and
28:46
it's
28:47
neither
28:47
of
28:47
those
28:47
things.
28:48
It
28:48
is
28:49
a
28:49
skillful
28:49
response
28:50
sometimes,
28:51
but
28:52
even
28:52
with
28:52
this,
28:53
John,
28:54
I
28:54
was
28:54
not
28:55
long
28:55
ago
28:55
with
28:55
a
28:55
Zen
28:56
priest,
28:57
very
28:57
well,
28:57
highly
28:58
regarded
28:58
person,
28:59
and
28:59
he
29:00
chose
29:00
this
29:00
option,
29:01
but
29:01
he
29:01
was
29:02
riddled
29:02
with
29:02
guilt
29:03
about
29:03
it.
29:04
Riddled
29:04
with
29:05
guilt.
29:05
What
29:06
will
29:06
my
29:06
students
29:07
think?
29:07
I
29:07
should
29:07
stay
29:08
longer,
29:08
I,
29:08
you
29:09
know,
29:09
etc.
29:09
Etc.
29:09
Etc.
29:10
And
29:11
so
29:11
I
29:11
sat
29:11
down
29:11
with
29:12
him
29:12
and
29:12
I.
29:13
I
29:13
said,
29:14
what
29:14
do
29:14
you
29:14
want
29:14
people
29:15
to
29:15
know?
29:16
What
29:16
do
29:16
you
29:16
want
29:17
from
29:17
people
29:18
at
29:18
this
29:18
moment
29:19
now?
29:20
And
29:20
he
29:20
said,
29:20
well,
29:20
I
29:21
want
29:21
to
29:21
be
29:21
loved
29:22
and
29:22
I
29:22
want
29:23
to
29:23
be
29:23
respected.
29:24
I
29:24
started
29:25
writing
29:25
these
29:25
things
29:25
down
29:25
on
29:26
a
29:26
piece
29:26
of
29:26
paper
29:26
and
29:27
of
29:27
course
29:27
we
29:27
came
29:27
up
29:28
with
29:28
a
29:28
long
29:28
list
29:29
of
29:29
very
29:29
simple
29:30
things.
29:30
I
29:30
want
29:30
to
29:30
be
29:30
looked,
29:31
I
29:31
want
29:31
my
29:31
judgments
29:32
to
29:32
be
29:32
understood,
29:33
the
29:33
choices
29:34
I
29:34
make
29:34
to
29:34
be
29:34
understood.
29:35
And
29:35
we
29:35
had
29:35
came
29:36
up
29:36
with
29:36
this
29:36
long
29:36
list.
29:36
And
29:36
I
29:37
made
29:37
a
29:37
kind
29:37
of
29:37
poster
29:37
out
29:37
of
29:38
it
29:38
and
29:38
I
29:38
hung
29:38
it
29:38
on
29:38
his
29:38
wall.
29:39
And
29:39
so
29:39
everybody
29:39
that
29:39
came
29:40
into
29:40
his
29:40
room
29:41
saw
29:41
that
29:41
list
29:42
before
29:42
they
29:42
saw
29:42
him.
29:44
And
29:44
so
29:45
it
29:45
became
29:45
a
29:46
kind
29:46
of
29:46
preparation
29:47
for
29:47
being
29:47
with
29:47
him.
29:48
And
29:48
then
29:49
the
29:49
way
29:49
in
29:49
which
29:49
they
29:50
were
29:50
with
29:50
him
29:50
changed
29:51
substantially
29:53
and
29:53
his,
29:54
as
29:54
a
29:54
result
29:54
of
29:55
their
29:56
kindness,
29:57
his
29:57
guilt
29:58
began
29:58
to
29:58
subside.
30:00
You
30:00
know,
30:01
in
30:01
the
30:01
Tibetan
30:01
tradition,
30:02
there's
30:02
something
30:03
called
30:03
proximate
30:04
karma.
30:04
Yeah.
30:05
And
30:05
it's
30:05
complicated
30:06
thing,
30:06
so
30:06
we
30:06
won't
30:07
go
30:07
into
30:07
it,
30:07
but
30:07
basically
30:08
it
30:08
means
30:08
what's
30:09
in
30:09
the
30:09
neighborhood?
30:09
Yeah,
30:10
what's
30:11
in
30:11
the
30:11
neighborhood?
30:11
So
30:11
when
30:11
someone
30:12
is
30:12
dying,
30:13
they
30:13
might
30:13
be
30:13
in
30:13
utter
30:14
confusion,
30:15
but
30:15
if
30:15
you
30:15
are
30:16
sitting
30:16
there
30:16
next
30:16
to
30:16
them,
30:17
John,
30:17
and
30:17
your
30:18
mind
30:18
is
30:18
somewhat
30:18
clear,
30:19
your
30:19
heart
30:19
is
30:19
somewhat
30:20
open,
30:20
that
30:21
can
30:21
be
30:21
a
30:21
huge
30:22
aid
30:22
to
30:22
that
30:22
person
30:23
in
30:23
their
30:23
dying
30:24
process.
30:25
In
30:25
this
30:25
case,
30:26
it
30:26
was
30:27
students
30:27
beginning
30:28
to
30:28
understand
30:28
and
30:29
love
30:29
their
30:29
teacher
30:30
anyway,
30:31
regardless
30:32
of
30:32
his
30:32
choices.
30:33
So
30:34
I
30:34
think
30:34
that
30:35
this
30:35
is
30:35
a
30:35
great
30:35
boon
30:36
that's
30:36
come
30:36
into
30:36
our
30:37
culture.
30:37
I
30:37
also
30:38
think
30:38
that
30:38
this
30:38
possibility
30:39
that,
30:39
you
30:40
know,
30:40
we
30:40
might
30:40
have
30:40
better
30:40
drugs
30:41
to
30:41
give
30:41
to
30:41
people
30:42
than
30:43
sedation.
30:44
There's
30:45
a
30:45
lot
30:45
of
30:45
work
30:45
going
30:46
on
30:46
around
30:46
psychedelics,
30:47
et
30:47
cetera,
30:47
people
30:47
exploring
30:48
this
30:48
in
30:48
the
30:49
months
30:49
before
30:50
dying.
30:51
And
30:51
I
30:51
think
30:51
there's
30:51
some
30:52
value
30:52
in
30:52
this
30:52
explanation.
30:54
I
30:54
think
30:54
if
30:54
we
30:55
have
30:55
some
30:55
experience
30:57
of
30:57
more
30:57
expanded
30:58
states
30:58
of
30:58
mind
30:59
in
30:59
our
30:59
life,
31:00
they
31:00
can
31:00
become
31:01
reference
31:01
points
31:02
for
31:02
us
31:03
in
31:03
the
31:03
experiences
31:04
that
31:04
we
31:04
meet
31:04
in
31:05
the
31:05
dying
31:05
process.
31:05
I
31:06
don't
31:06
think
31:06
what
31:06
happens
31:07
in
31:07
psychedelics
31:07
and
31:07
dying
31:08
are
31:08
the
31:08
same
31:08
thing.
31:08
I
31:09
don't
31:09
equate
31:09
them,
31:10
but
31:10
I
31:10
think
31:10
they
31:11
could
31:11
be
31:11
useful
31:11
tools
31:12
in
31:13
helping
31:13
us
31:13
to
31:13
meet
31:14
the
31:14
profundity
31:15
that
31:15
we
31:16
will
31:16
encounter
31:16
in
31:16
the
31:17
time
31:17
of
31:17
dying.
31:18
That
31:18
we
31:19
are
31:19
beyond
31:19
our
31:19
egos.
31:20
There's
31:21
something
31:21
much
31:22
bigger.
31:22
Well,
31:23
there's
31:24
at
31:24
least
31:24
a
31:24
possibility
31:25
of
31:26
this.
31:26
Who
31:26
we
31:27
are
31:27
experiencing
31:28
ourself
31:28
as
31:29
something
31:29
larger.
31:30
It's
31:30
not
31:30
that
31:31
we're
31:31
going
31:31
to
31:31
kill
31:31
the
31:31
ego
31:32
and
31:32
get
31:32
rid
31:32
of
31:32
it.
31:32
I
31:32
don't
31:33
know
31:33
who
31:33
wants
31:33
to
31:33
do
31:33
that.
31:34
The
31:34
awareness
31:34
doesn't
31:35
need
31:35
to
31:35
kill
31:35
the
31:35
ego,
31:36
but
31:36
when
31:37
we
31:37
have
31:37
a
31:37
more
31:38
expanded
31:38
quality
31:39
of
31:39
awareness,
31:39
we
31:40
know
31:40
ourselves
31:40
to
31:41
be
31:41
that
31:41
in
31:42
addition
31:42
to.
31:42
We
31:43
could
31:43
say,
31:44
say
31:45
thank
31:45
you.
31:46
And
31:46
it
31:46
does
31:46
seem
31:47
that
31:47
there
31:47
is
31:48
now
31:48
significant
31:48
research
31:49
showing
31:50
that
31:50
the
31:51
psychedelic
31:52
experience
31:52
can
31:53
be
31:53
very
31:53
valuable
31:54
for
31:54
people
31:54
with,
31:55
for
31:55
example,
31:56
fear,
31:56
existential
31:58
confrontation.
31:59
So
32:01
both
32:02
many
32:02
people's
32:03
individual
32:03
experience
32:04
plus
32:05
solid
32:05
research
32:06
seems
32:06
to
32:06
suggest
32:07
the
32:07
potential
32:08
value
32:08
in
32:08
at
32:08
least
32:08
some
32:09
people.
32:09
Absolutely,
32:10
that
32:11
seems
32:11
to
32:11
be
32:11
the
32:12
case,
32:12
you
32:12
know,
32:12
and
32:13
there's
32:13
been
32:13
good
32:13
studies
32:14
on
32:14
that.
32:14
But
32:14
I.
32:15
I'm
32:15
concerned
32:15
about
32:15
it
32:16
because
32:16
I
32:16
don't
32:16
want
32:16
it
32:16
to
32:17
be
32:17
another
32:17
bypass
32:18
that
32:18
we
32:18
use.
32:19
And
32:19
I
32:19
don't
32:19
necessarily
32:20
want
32:20
these
32:21
medications,
32:22
if
32:22
you
32:22
will,
32:23
to
32:23
be
32:23
in
32:23
the
32:23
hands
32:24
of
32:24
untrained
32:25
facilitators
32:25
or
32:26
physicians,
32:26
for
32:26
example,
32:26
that
32:27
are
32:27
not
32:27
familiar
32:27
with
32:28
their
32:28
impact.
32:29
So
32:29
I'm
32:29
very
32:30
cautious
32:30
about
32:31
how
32:31
we
32:31
would
32:32
use
32:32
these
32:32
things.
32:32
I
32:33
think
32:33
they're
32:33
very.
32:33
They
32:33
could
32:34
be
32:34
valuable
32:34
in
32:34
the
32:34
months
32:35
before
32:35
dying.
32:36
Actually.
32:37
I
32:37
definitely
32:38
want
32:38
to
32:39
honor
32:39
your
32:40
cautions
32:40
because
32:42
tragically,
32:42
as
32:43
at
32:43
least
32:43
with
32:44
at
32:45
least
32:45
preliminary
32:46
stage,
32:46
and
32:47
with,
32:47
for
32:47
example,
32:48
ketamine,
32:48
the
32:48
use
32:49
of
32:49
ketamine,
32:50
it's
32:50
now
32:51
being
32:51
used
32:52
as
32:52
a
32:52
psychedelic
32:53
for
32:53
a
32:53
variety
32:54
of
32:54
purposes.
32:54
And
32:55
then
32:55
research
32:55
is
32:56
clear.
32:56
It
32:56
can
32:56
be
32:56
very
32:56
valuable,
32:57
for
32:57
example,
32:57
with
32:58
PTSD
32:58
or
32:59
with
32:59
depression,
33:00
but
33:01
it
33:01
is
33:02
being
33:02
used
33:02
as
33:03
a
33:03
money
33:03
maker
33:04
in
33:04
some
33:05
clinics
33:06
and
33:07
not
33:07
done
33:07
with
33:08
the
33:08
kind
33:08
of
33:09
psychotherapeutic
33:10
support
33:11
or
33:12
appropriate
33:12
training
33:13
that
33:14
you're
33:14
suggesting.
33:15
So
33:15
thank
33:16
you
33:16
for
33:16
pointing
33:16
to
33:17
those
33:17
safeguards.
33:18
Yeah,
33:18
I
33:19
think
33:19
it's
33:19
important,
33:20
Frank,
33:20
as.
33:21
We
33:21
kind
33:21
of
33:21
come
33:22
towards
33:22
the
33:22
end
33:22
here,
33:24
to
33:24
acknowledge
33:24
the
33:25
beauty
33:26
of
33:26
the
33:26
work
33:26
you've
33:27
done
33:27
and
33:27
how
33:27
much
33:28
good
33:28
has
33:28
come
33:28
out
33:29
of
33:29
just
33:29
your
33:30
being
33:30
with
33:31
the
33:31
dying
33:31
in
33:32
a
33:32
very
33:32
open,
33:33
learning,
33:34
don't
33:35
know
33:35
way.
33:36
And
33:36
so
33:36
much
33:36
has
33:37
come
33:37
out
33:37
of
33:37
that.
33:38
And
33:39
you
33:39
seem
33:39
to
33:39
have
33:39
let
33:40
go
33:40
a
33:40
lot
33:40
of
33:41
personal
33:41
agendas
33:42
and
33:42
so
33:42
forth.
33:43
We're
33:43
all
33:43
works
33:44
in
33:44
progress.
33:45
But
33:46
is
33:46
there
33:46
anything
33:46
else
33:47
you
33:47
would
33:48
love
33:48
to
33:48
see,
33:50
love
33:50
people
33:50
to
33:51
know
33:51
or
33:52
to
33:52
be
33:53
able
33:53
to
33:53
do
33:53
yourself.
33:57
You
33:57
know,
33:57
Ram
33:57
Dass,
33:58
our
33:59
buddy,
34:00
we
34:00
talked
34:00
together
34:00
quite
34:01
a
34:01
lot.
34:02
We
34:02
were
34:03
speak,
34:03
doing
34:03
some
34:04
workshop,
34:04
I
34:04
don't
34:04
recall
34:05
where.
34:05
And
34:06
I
34:06
began
34:06
to
34:06
speak
34:07
about
34:07
the
34:09
experience
34:09
of
34:09
bathing
34:10
the
34:10
body
34:10
of
34:11
someone
34:11
after
34:11
they
34:12
die.
34:13
And
34:13
you
34:14
know,
34:14
this
34:14
has
34:14
happened
34:14
in
34:15
every
34:15
culture
34:15
and
34:15
every
34:16
tradition
34:17
for
34:17
millennium.
34:18
And
34:19
there's
34:19
something
34:20
so
34:20
beautiful
34:20
about
34:21
it,
34:21
you
34:21
know.
34:22
And
34:22
of
34:22
course
34:22
there
34:23
are
34:23
rituals
34:23
for
34:23
doing
34:24
this
34:24
in
34:24
various
34:24
traditions,
34:25
but
34:25
we
34:25
can
34:25
also
34:26
create
34:26
our
34:26
own
34:27
rituals
34:27
around
34:27
these
34:28
things.
34:29
And
34:29
my
34:29
experience
34:30
has
34:30
been
34:30
that
34:31
this
34:31
is
34:32
extraordinarily
34:33
beneficial
34:34
to
34:35
family
34:35
members
34:35
and
34:36
friends
34:36
or
34:36
to
34:37
medical
34:38
professionals
34:38
after
34:39
there's
34:39
been
34:39
a
34:39
death
34:40
because
34:41
we
34:41
put
34:41
aside
34:42
all
34:42
the
34:42
things
34:42
of
34:43
medicine,
34:43
we
34:43
put
34:43
aside
34:44
all
34:44
the
34:45
things
34:45
having
34:45
to
34:45
do
34:46
with
34:46
sickness
34:47
and.
34:47
And
34:47
we
34:47
just
34:47
care
34:48
for
34:48
this
34:48
person
34:49
in
34:49
the
34:49
most
34:49
loving,
34:50
simple
34:51
way.
34:52
And
34:52
my
34:53
sense
34:53
of
34:53
what
34:54
occurs
34:54
after
34:54
that
34:55
is
34:55
that
34:55
people's
34:55
relationship
34:56
to
34:56
dying
34:57
shifts
34:58
because
34:59
they're
34:59
literally
35:00
touching
35:00
it.
35:01
They're
35:01
literally
35:02
touching
35:02
death
35:03
and
35:03
it's
35:04
not
35:04
as
35:04
frightening
35:05
as
35:05
they
35:05
imagined.
35:06
So
35:06
I
35:07
think
35:07
I
35:07
would
35:07
like
35:08
to
35:08
invite
35:08
these
35:09
kinds
35:09
of
35:09
rituals
35:10
back
35:10
into
35:11
our
35:12
experience
35:12
of
35:12
the
35:12
dying
35:13
process,
35:13
including
35:14
in
35:15
hospitals.
35:15
People
35:16
often
35:16
get
35:16
a
35:16
cursory
35:17
bath
35:17
after
35:17
they've
35:18
died.
35:18
But
35:19
what
35:19
would
35:19
it
35:19
be
35:19
like
35:19
if
35:20
the
35:20
staff
35:21
had
35:21
an
35:21
opportunity
35:22
to
35:23
bathe
35:23
them
35:23
in
35:23
a
35:23
ritual
35:24
like
35:24
way
35:24
to
35:25
say
35:25
goodbye
35:25
or
35:25
family
35:26
members
35:26
were
35:26
invited
35:27
into
35:27
that
35:27
process?
35:28
Maybe
35:29
it
35:29
seems
35:29
too
35:29
far
35:29
out
35:30
for
35:30
your
35:30
listeners,
35:31
but
35:31
I
35:31
think
35:31
this
35:32
one
35:32
single
35:33
action
35:33
could
35:34
fundamentally
35:34
shift
35:35
our
35:35
relationship
35:36
to
35:36
dying.
35:37
When
35:37
Ram
35:37
Dass
35:38
and
35:38
I
35:38
were
35:38
teaching
35:38
together,
35:39
he
35:39
asked
35:39
me
35:40
that
35:40
question
35:40
that
35:41
you
35:41
just
35:41
did.
35:41
And
35:42
that
35:42
was
35:42
my
35:42
answer
35:43
then
35:43
and
35:43
continues
35:44
to
35:44
be
35:44
my
35:44
answer
35:45
now.
35:45
Beautiful.
35:46
One
35:46
of
35:46
the
35:46
thrusts
35:47
of
35:47
this
35:47
whole
35:47
conversation
35:48
is
35:48
that
35:49
our
35:49
culture
35:50
is
35:50
just
35:50
not
35:51
dealing
35:52
well
35:52
with
35:52
death.
35:53
And
35:53
I
35:53
know
35:53
some
35:54
cultures
35:54
that
35:54
are
35:54
much
35:54
more
35:55
Native
35:55
American
35:56
and
35:56
say
35:57
Jewish
35:57
Orthodox
35:58
and
35:58
different
35:58
ones,
35:58
or
35:59
life
36:00
and
36:00
death
36:00
are
36:01
much,
36:01
very
36:02
much
36:02
accepted
36:03
and
36:03
honored
36:03
and
36:05
sacred.
36:06
And
36:07
we
36:07
cut
36:07
ourselves
36:07
off
36:08
from
36:08
that
36:08
and.
36:09
And
36:09
impoverished
36:10
ourselves.
36:10
So
36:11
thank
36:12
you
36:12
for
36:12
the
36:12
work
36:13
you're
36:13
doing
36:14
and
36:14
how
36:14
you
36:15
touch
36:15
me.
36:16
Preparing
36:16
for
36:16
this
36:17
conversation
36:17
and
36:18
being
36:18
part
36:18
of
36:18
it's
36:18
been
36:19
a
36:19
great
36:19
honor
36:19
and
36:19
a
36:19
great
36:20
blessing.
36:20
Thank
36:20
you.
36:21
And
36:21
a
36:21
big
36:22
joy
36:22
for
36:22
me
36:22
and
36:23
thank
36:23
you
36:23
for
36:23
your
36:23
tenderness
36:24
also,
36:24
John.
36:25
I
36:25
appreciate
36:25
your
36:25
including
36:26
that
36:26
in
36:27
our
36:27
conversation.
36:28
Yeah,
36:29
yeah,
36:30
likewise
36:31
for
36:31
me.
36:31
Deeply
36:32
have
36:32
been
36:32
deeply
36:33
touched
36:33
by
36:34
reading
36:35
your
36:35
book
36:35
and
36:35
I
36:35
want
36:35
to
36:36
again
36:37
emphasize
36:37
what
36:37
an
36:38
exquisite
36:38
book
36:38
this
36:39
is.
36:39
The
36:39
five
36:39
Invitations
36:40
Discovering
36:41
what
36:41
death
36:41
can
36:41
teach
36:42
us
36:42
about
36:43
living
36:43
fully.
36:44
And
36:45
I
36:45
also
36:45
want
36:46
to
36:46
just
36:46
point
36:47
to
36:47
something
36:47
you
36:48
said
36:48
in
36:48
passing
36:49
in
36:49
your
36:49
last
36:49
comment
36:50
about
36:50
what
36:50
you
36:51
hoped
36:51
you
36:51
might
36:52
yet
36:52
be
36:52
able
36:52
to
36:53
communicate
36:54
further
36:54
and
36:54
you
36:55
emphasized
36:56
the
36:56
beauty
36:56
of
36:57
washing
36:57
a
36:57
body
36:58
and
36:58
you
36:59
also
36:59
said
37:00
making
37:00
a
37:00
ritual
37:01
around
37:01
this.
37:02
One
37:02
of
37:02
the
37:02
things
37:03
I
37:03
take
37:03
away
37:03
is
37:04
from
37:04
this
37:05
conversation
37:06
is
37:06
the
37:06
importance
37:07
of
37:07
finding,
37:08
creating
37:09
our
37:09
own
37:09
rituals
37:11
for
37:11
life,
37:12
for
37:12
life
37:12
transitions
37:13
and
37:14
for
37:14
the
37:14
final
37:14
transition
37:15
of
37:15
death.
37:16
So
37:16
that's
37:17
been
37:17
a
37:17
particularly
37:18
powerful
37:19
thing
37:19
I
37:19
will
37:19
take
37:20
away
37:20
among
37:20
many
37:21
others.
37:21
Frank,
37:22
I
37:22
just
37:22
want
37:23
to
37:23
thank
37:23
you
37:23
so
37:24
much
37:24
for
37:25
what
37:25
you've
37:25
done.
37:26
The
37:27
heart
37:27
and
37:27
spirit
37:28
with
37:28
which
37:28
you've
37:29
approach
37:29
this
37:30
work
37:31
and
37:31
the
37:31
way
37:31
in
37:31
which
37:32
that
37:33
don't
37:33
know
37:34
mind,
37:34
open
37:35
hearted,
37:37
bringing
37:37
the
37:37
fullness
37:38
of
37:38
your
37:38
being
37:39
to
37:39
the
37:40
experience
37:40
of
37:41
being
37:41
with
37:42
the
37:42
dying
37:42
and
37:43
the
37:43
living
37:44
has
37:45
impacted
37:45
me,
37:46
John,
37:47
and
37:47
our
37:48
culture.
37:49
This
37:49
is
37:49
a
37:49
priceless
37:50
gift
37:50
and
37:51
I
37:51
hope
37:51
you
37:52
know
37:53
just
37:53
how
37:54
and
37:54
let
37:54
in
37:55
just
37:55
how
37:55
much
37:55
good
37:55
you've
37:56
done.
37:57
You've
37:57
really
37:58
transformed
37:59
a
37:59
lot
37:59
of
37:59
people
38:00
and
38:00
saved
38:01
a
38:01
lot
38:01
of
38:02
people
38:02
enormous
38:03
amount
38:03
of
38:03
suffering.
38:03
So
38:04
thank
38:04
you,
38:05
thank
38:05
you
38:05
for
38:05
your.
38:05
Kind
38:06
words,
38:06
Roger
38:07
and
38:07
I
38:08
want
38:08
to
38:08
just
38:08
applaud
38:09
you
38:09
and
38:09
John
38:10
for
38:10
doing
38:10
this
38:11
program
38:12
that
38:13
now
38:13
this,
38:14
our
38:14
words,
38:15
our
38:15
conversation
38:15
will
38:16
go
38:16
out
38:16
to
38:16
thousands
38:17
and
38:17
thousands
38:17
of
38:17
people
38:18
and
38:19
you're
38:19
impacting,
38:20
influencing
38:21
how
38:22
we
38:22
as
38:22
a
38:22
culture
38:23
become,
38:23
begin
38:23
to
38:24
think
38:24
about
38:24
this.
38:24
So
38:24
I'm
38:24
very
38:24
grateful
38:25
that
38:25
you've
38:25
done
38:25
this.
38:26
Thank
38:26
you
38:26
for
38:26
doing
38:26
it.
38:27
Yeah,
38:27
we're
38:28
grateful
38:28
for
38:28
the
38:28
opportunity
38:29
too.
38:29
Yeah.
38:30
Frank,
38:30
thank
38:31
you
38:31
so
38:31
much.
38:32
John,
38:32
thank
38:32
you
38:33
so
38:33
much.
38:33
Thank
38:33
you,
38:34
Heidi,
38:35
Heidi
38:35
Mitchell
38:36
who
38:36
is
38:36
our
38:37
podcast
38:38
producer
38:39
and
38:39
Vanessa
38:40
Santos
38:40
who
38:40
is
38:41
our
38:41
technological
38:42
whiz.
38:44
And
38:44
thank
38:44
you
38:45
all
38:45
for
38:45
listening
38:46
and
38:46
being
38:46
with
38:46
us
38:47
and
38:47
making
38:47
this
38:48
podcast
38:49
conversation
38:50
possible.
38:50
Thank
38:51
you
38:51
very
38:51
much
38:51
for
38:52
being
38:52
a
38:52
part
38:52
of
38:53
this
38:53
conversation.
38:54
We
38:54
hope
38:54
that
38:54
you
38:55
were
38:55
moved
38:55
as
38:55
we
38:56
are
38:56
moved
38:56
being
38:56
part
38:57
of
38:57
it
38:57
ourselves.
38:58
We'd
38:58
also
38:58
like
38:59
to
38:59
say
38:59
that
38:59
this
38:59
is
39:00
being
39:00
funded
39:01
by
39:01
Roger
39:01
and
39:01
myself.
39:02
It
39:02
comes
39:02
out
39:02
of
39:02
our
39:02
pockets.
39:03
So
39:03
if
39:03
you
39:03
would
39:03
like
39:04
to
39:04
help
39:04
us
39:04
to
39:05
mainly
39:06
to
39:06
get
39:06
this
39:06
podcast
39:07
out
39:07
to
39:07
more
39:07
people
39:08
because
39:08
the
39:08
bigger
39:08
audience
39:09
have
39:09
which
39:09
is
39:09
steadily
39:10
growing,
39:10
but
39:10
the
39:10
more
39:11
people
39:11
we
39:11
can
39:11
reach
39:11
and
39:11
the
39:12
more
39:12
marketing
39:12
we
39:12
can
39:13
do,
39:13
the
39:13
more
39:13
positive
39:14
effect
39:14
we
39:15
can
39:15
have
39:15
on
39:15
the
39:15
world.
39:16
So
39:16
we've
39:16
done
39:16
a
39:16
couple
39:17
of
39:17
ways,
39:17
but
39:17
we'd
39:17
like
39:17
you
39:18
to
39:18
buy
39:18
us
39:18
a
39:18
cup
39:19
of
39:19
coffee.
39:19
Very
39:19
simple.
39:20
And
39:20
I
39:20
do
39:20
that
39:20
with
39:21
podcasts
39:22
that
39:22
I
39:22
support
39:23
and
39:23
I
39:23
find
39:24
it's
39:24
very
39:24
satisfying.
39:25
So
39:25
thank
39:25
you
39:25
for
39:26
your
39:26
help,
39:26
thank
39:26
you
39:27
for
39:27
your
39:27
presence
39:27
and
39:27
thank
39:28
you
39:28
for
39:28
all
39:28
you
39:29
are
39:29
and
39:29
all
39:29
you
39:29
do.
39:30
We
39:30
love
39:30
you.
39:40
Sa.