Latest / Monero Talk / Privacy as the Top On-Chain Alpha w/ Rafael LaVerde | EPI 325

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Privacy as the Top On-Chain Alpha w/ Rafael LaVerde | EPI 325 · Monero Talk

• Rafael Monero is the place for HODLing for store of value, it belongs to Monero more than anywhere else in all of crypto. Sponsor Monero talk is sponsored by cake wallet, a trustless open source wallet that gives you the keys to your crypto, invoice, donate and trade your Monero with peace of mind, piece of cake. And by Stealth EX, an instant exchange where privacy is a top concern. Sponsor Go to stealth ex .io to instantly exchange between Monero and 450 plus assets without having to create an account or register and with no limits. Making Stealth EX a simple way to purchase Monero with crypto anonymously. Sponsor Monero talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you. And supporting us is easier than ever. By typing in Monero talk .crypto in your Monero .com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Sponsor This week on Monero talk. Douglas Truman interviews Rafael Laverde of the crypto vigilante to discuss Monero's role in the evolving crypto landscape. They dive into Bitcoin's loss of fungibility and the increasing programmability that makes it less private, contrasting it with Monero's strong privacy features. Sponsor The conversation explores how Monero is not only essential for anonymous transactions, but also positioned as a better store of value. They also highlight Monero's potential to drive a parallel economy free from state surveillance and predict its growing importance for businesses. Sponsor Monero talk starts now. Doug All right, what's going on, man? Dude, thank you for having me. It's good to be here. How are you, Doug? Dude, it's fashionably late. Look at this guy. The anticipation, though. We got 21 live views right now. Doug Guys, just share. Let's get the word out. Let's get a bunch of people in here. And we will get into things, I'm sure, as we always do. Right, Rafael? How you doing, man? Rafael I'm doing pretty good, I'm just, I'm eager to share a lot of things with you and grow an insight with you. I really am. I'm excited. I'm excited for this conversation, it's long overdue that we hang out again. Doug Yes, I'm excited to have you down in Mexico City as well, Monero Topia. You guys, you bring a lot of energy, man. You bring a lot of energy. You bring a good vibe when you attend these things. Rafael Well, I mean, Monero's home for us. Like, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Monero. The crypto vigilante wouldn't have started if it wasn't for Monero. It really was the reason why we started the crypto vigilante. Rafael It was a way to educate and a way for us to just educate. We really just wanted to educate. So we saw creating a newsletter that could walk people hand in hand through all this craziness called crypto. Rafael And the source of inspiration was really Monero. If it wasn't for Monero, the crypto vigilante wouldn't exist because crypto vigilante was really brought together by everything that makes Monero what it is. Rafael And that's the honest truth. Monero is really like why we exist is to teach about what eventually leads to Monero. So everything we do is ordered towards that goal of leading people to understanding what matters most and why. Rafael All roads lead to Monero, right? Yeah. And that's what I want to talk to you about. So whenever you want to get started. Doug Yeah, yeah, go for it, man. I see you're chopping at the bit. Yeah, just go for it. I'll follow and I'll ask questions. Rafael Well, as you guys know, the the crypto space has gone through a Copernican revolution where now there's more emphasis on Bitcoin than there is on Ethereum and having computational power happen within Bitcoin. Rafael And so the results of this is one where Bitcoin has lost its fungibility. Whatever fungibility Bitcoin had, it was lost. So overall, what happened in Bitcoin in the past two years is that the big blocker worldview won out through market pressure. Rafael How did that happen? You may ask. Well, it happened because Bitcoin in its design was never meant to be a fungible digital gold, fungible digital cash. It was never meant to be. If it was meant to be, then we would have never created Monero. Rafael So if Bitcoin was built to be fungible digital gold, fungible digital cash, then Monero talk wouldn't exist. We would just be having a Bitcoin talk forum where we would be talking about Bitcoin and the fungible anonymous private properties of Bitcoin. Rafael Now you're saying. Doug You're saying you don't think Bitcoin was ever meant to be. Rafael No, it was never meant to be. People disagree with me. Mr. X disagrees with me. A lot of people read into Satoshi that he wanted to have the privacy to the level of Monero or he saw- Yeah, because like even, yeah. Rafael But I- Doug You had it rolling signatures stealth addresses in the early days. Okay Rafael So check this out. I read it a step further. What does that mean? I see that in Bitcoin you can have privacy and you can have ring signatures You can have zero knowledge proofs. You can have a little more of encryption all types of zero knowledge computations Applications that run on top of the Bitcoin blockchain And this is not something that is what I used to say this two or three years ago People thought that what I was saying was controversial, Rafael but now it's common knowledge now Everyone's talking about zk rollups on Bitcoin. Everyone's talking about DeFi on Bitcoin. Everyone's talking about smart contracts on Bitcoin Bitcoin as the idea of Bitcoin as a supercomputer is already a reality This is something that as big blockers we we wanted But that is very different from what they sold us in that Bitcoin was better than Monero and being more private and watch out Because there's still people out there trying to tell you that Bitcoin is more private than Monero and that's a lie okay, Rafael that's and that's what I really want to talk to you guys about here because um let's step back because and let's talk about the history of Bitcoin and why we're we are where we're at and Why Monero came to be Satoshi gave us a mouthful. Rafael He gave us like a lot to digest and There were two veins of thoughts in early Bitcoin days Bitcoin as money Bitcoin as store of value what brought Bitcoin its most as biggest success up until 2017 was the idea of Bitcoin as money as magic internet money But in order to have true fungible money Bitcoiners realized that you you just couldn't do it on the Bitcoin protocol so a dispute started to happen specifically with what turned out to be the BTC and Bitcoin cash camps and that they both had their way of trying to An attempt to achieve what was only possible with Monero just interrupt just Doug So sit where what what what do you think Satoshi stance was at the time? Yeah, I mean cuz he obviously heard away. I was a third away So I think what it wasn't a peer -to -peer electronic cash system or it was door He realized that it could that it couldn't function as a as a it could be what he goes Rafael to be so there's a three camps in Bitcoin actually for their four camps in Bitcoin I consider Monero of a Bitcoin native camp that realize you have to start doing it from scratch and start doing everything Right from the beginning in other words to achieve maximum privacy From day one as much as possible and the most careful and diligent and you know peer -reviewed pop process possible And that was what why Monero came to be so there are four camps in Bitcoin history can be divided into four camps BTC Bitcoin cash Monero and BSV so Bitcoin cash and BTC they both stated well We can achieve Monero like privacy if we only do this within the blockchain That was Bitcoin cash if we do these privacy features within the Bitcoin blockchain and for BTC was well if we could enable less on chain footprint and enable Privacy in second layer transactions on BTC through things like the Lightning Network. Rafael So both camps. Um in my opinion They failed that at that endeavor because there were Bitcoiners who said you know Well guys both of you are wrong both the Bitcoin cash approach and the BTC approach is wrong If you want to achieve privacy, you have to do it on chain at the protocol level and we have Monero There was a third camp who said guys all of you guys did not understand what Satoshi gave us And this is the BSV camp very radical BSV camp that said Bitcoin was never supposed to be a privacy coin It was supposed to be a new protocol for the internet where we can have privacy and all types of Cryptographic schemes on top of the Bitcoin blockchain so you can have data packets that are zero knowledge proof Someone working for encryption Bulletproofs all but the base layer was transparent and open to right to a Market -driven incentive for if someone wants to do blockchain analytics, Rafael they could so um, so believe it or not Dog, that is the mindset that has won out all of Bitcoin now to the point that now we find this extreme big blocker understanding of bitcoins being consumed by BTC itself and we saw it happen with ordinals with atomic goals with now we have rooms we have DeFi on Bitcoin smart contracts on BTC. Rafael We have what would they call the great script restoration? Led by the BTC core devs who are restoring op codes within BTC in reality What they're doing is is that they're copying BSV. That's really what they're doing So they're so BSV told people this idea that Bitcoin is a computer that is not just a store of value And it's not even just cash. Rafael It's views as money that is not fungible But that it is a supercomputer that is a computer that is turn complete You can turn it on and you can program on chain and however much space you have The within the within each block of time That is how how much programmability can be contained with it each block of time in BSV All the programmability is unbounded in BTC. Rafael The programmability has about 4 megabytes within with SegWit But you can still do a lot within you know programming kilobytes amounts of data within BTC So people are playing with and they're rediscovering Bitcoin in this new way of seeing that Bitcoin is a supercomputer What happens with Bitcoin at that moment in time and what we've been seeing is that Bitcoin has lost its fungibility even more So whoever told you that BTC was private that was competitive with Monero That that that whole mindset that became that's dude satoshis are now programmable Satoshis are not colored satoshis are now They're less fungible if anything, Rafael they're more traceable. So the big blocker understanding of Bitcoin has now taken over all of the Bitcoin world that I would say that BTC is more of a big blocker blockchain at this point than Bitcoin cash because BTC has in the embrace programmability of the Bitcoin blockchain itself so right now they are they just innate they're enabling op cats within BTC and it's the first of 19 op codes to be rolled out within BTC that they're you know, Rafael you know, they're said they Whatever the story may be, you know I have a completely different understanding of what happened in Bitcoin history than the mainstream of crypto, but in Bitcoin, um They're enabling all of the programmability within be within BTC And just with op cat alone You can simulate a lot of the op codes to still be yet enabled within BTC. Rafael So we are going to see a lot of cool stuff Being created within BTC which will go to show even more that BTC was Bitcoin was never intended to be Fungible digital bold and fungible digital cash. So what are they saying? Rafael What are the small blocker BTC people saying they are telling the world they're saying we have we are Embracing the programmability of Bitcoin by enabling all of these by restoring all of these op codes in order to allow for more custom Custody options on chain and for two and two also to provide more Interoperability with second layers that would allow for more privacy on on BTC Sponsor Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous .org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Sponsor Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Rafael Unfortunately, I think that's just half of the truth. I think that's really just plausible, deniable reason for what they're doing. And in my opinion, what they're really doing is that they're positioning themselves to compete with a layer one solution that could possibly outcompete BTC in the future in programmability. Rafael And we're seeing that happen right now with the fractal blockchain that just launched in partnership with Binance and the Unisat team. And we're also seeing it with the Bell's blockchain that was revived, which is a fork of, it was a first mean coin actually, it was a fork of Litecoin, it's merged mine with Litecoin and with Dogecoin. Rafael And also with like other blockchains that are pretty recent like that compete for this UTX so layer one programmability race that we're in now, like Radiant and BSP itself. So everyone is looking for utility on chain. Rafael And so there is this idea in crypto that is pervasive that utility does not pump. But the truth guys is that everything that is created on chain that you find fun that pumps as a meme or a meme coin comes forth from utility. Rafael And the utilities will makes these things possible. So that's just rhetoric. That's just a sci -op really in my opinion. When they say that utility does not pump. And when you look at on chain innovation, you will see that like in all of crypto, the holy grail of on chain utility is money. Rafael So we call it full circle back to Monero. And so that's what we're seeing right now. Doug As shortwave surfer would say, who just tipped us 25 cents, prostitutes use Monero. I guess that's a simple way of explaining that it is the best form of digital cash we have. People that actually need the utility of fungible digital cash are using Monero. Doug If they're not using it yet, the trend seems to be in that direction that they'll eventually find Monero for that use case. Rafael So what is the problem here? There's a disconnect, right? And I spoke to you in private about this about a couple of weeks ago, like there's a disconnect here. Why is it that people are not getting it? Rafael What's going on here? And I think that what's really happening is that it's a matter of marketing and rhetoric. I think a huge disservice was done to the Monero community when there was a meme. I honestly think, because now I see PsyOps everywhere, right? Rafael That there was a PsyOps in Monero that told people that BTC, that Bitcoin is a store of value and that Monero is to be spent. And I call bullshit on that. I think that's horrible. I think that's extremely wrong. Doug I've been called bullshit on that with the samurai that's why the samurai guys and I never got along because I just disagreed with That that premise right didn't make sense to me I mean if it functions as a utility like cash itself, you know, you know, you could you could store some cash under your bed Right. Doug There's there's utility and having it in case you need to use it Rafael yeah so so like if you if you really want to store value somewhere you want to do it in a place that has privacy i mean you just in the word store there is a you Doug You think Swiss bank, right? You think- Yeah, you choice. Rafael floors and you want to safe keep it, you're insinuating that you want it to be in a safe harbor. So imagine having a treasure chest that is yours with your name on it in the middle of Main Street. That's right. Rafael Classic box. Doug Yeah, that's how I always explain exactly that. It's like a glass safe on your front lawn with all your money in it Rafael it's ridiculous man and it really is ridiculous and so every so who has been are the market the greatest marketing arm for Monero it's been BTC the small blocker camp who right now they cannot at this point in time the small blocker camp of Bitcoin can no longer claim that Bitcoin is only digital gold and a store of value and a bearer instrument that idea is dead that Bitcoin is only for that no one can think of Bitcoin no one that actually understands Bitcoin if you're just a grandma buying the ETF you know what would you know right but if no one that is in Bitcoin actually actively participating in it can think of Bitcoin as just being a a bear instrument to store value anymore that is that is uh you can you can take that idea to the nursing home it's it's it's old and it doesn't apply to Bitcoin anymore if anything the truth about Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is a platform to create cool things on that actually make it less fungible and you should be okay with that because this is not something that you impose on Bitcoin okay the core devs are restoring opcodes that Satoshi gave us what the heck does that mean that design in Bitcoin had within it opcodes that when used made Bitcoin less fungible okay the idea for privacy not anonymity the idea for privacy on Bitcoin was one that happened at the layer of micro transactions when you scale Bitcoin and you had less um you made blockchain analytics more difficult that was his idea of privacy uh but it was it was a it was a it was a privacy based on obfuscation not cryptography it was a it was not anonymity so so so she didn't give us anonymity it was a a cost -benefit analysis that if it was worthwhile sifting through a bunch of UTXOs where in a in a scalable Bitcoin world let's say we have a Bitcoin that truly scales on chain that we have i send you a hundred dollars but within 500 ,000 split up on 500 ,000 wallets and so you you get like a bunch of different wallets giving what seems to be dust just thrown at your wallet or however many wallets you want to receive and and so yeah that creates more obfuscation but never um the level of anonymity that a project like Monero gives you so so yeah so so any so recently recently i saw some people who um i i'm not going to name them but because i don't think that's charitable but uh some people that i thought were like commendable in BTC um say that Bitcoin is more private than Monero like they're still saying that and it's just crazy to me they're saying that like second layer solutions are more private than Monero still it's it's not it's Doug Yeah, what is the lot a logic in that it's because they're saying there's just not enough people using Monero So you're I mean, is that basically the premise of their argument? Like I don't say how you have hot Rafael Dude, to be honest, I didn't even register or remember their arguments because all of them that were so stupid that I'm like, is this even worth talking about? Doug literally watching Bitcoin get traced daily, right? Like it's happening, it's not theoretical. The government tracks and traces transactions. Chain analysis is a tremendous growing force that the government is using, this tool that they're using in partnership, right? Doug I think I have a revolving door between people that work for chain analysis and then come work for the regulators, right? It's like, it's happening, it already exists. It's not even theoretical. And so to deny that Bitcoin is traceable is just ridiculous. Rafael And the thing that I always go back to is, is like, when you talk to someone in the Monero community, they are, they're very quick to tell you what could possibly go wrong with Monero, and you have like the Breaking Monero series, like there's, there's this a whole different approach to privacy. Rafael Whereas, there's the opposite happens in Bitcoin, where they're trying to convince you that it's private. That's where I'm like, wait a minute. And then the Monero guys are actually the opposite. They're like, right. Rafael And we're private right now. These are vulnerabilities in the future. It's a completely different mindset. So I have a huge respect for the Monero community. Huge respect for Payabaner. I can't believe what he has been doing in the recent months. Rafael Like, like he he single handedly has has improved the privacy space at large. You know, he he single handedly has been working on, you know, Soraya decks. Shout out to him. Bad props. Also, full chain membership proofs. Rafael He's been buddies with people in the in the pirate chain community, give them giving them like, like feedback. And the pirate chain community has been humble enough to take that feedback and and really better their own. Doug That work Darrow he gave Darrow some some some hard hard lessons. He gave him a lot of love Rafael Yeah, I mean he's honestly at this point in their own history. He's been the most valuable contributor. Let's be honest Yeah, what do you think? He did him a favor. He did them a favor. He did him a favor. Rafael That's the way he did him a favor and so Yeah, so I'm really excited for for for what's happening with Monero I I think that at this point what we need is is more is changing the vibe and marketing I really love what you guys are doing with the with the bazaar with the Exemar bazaar. Rafael Yeah, yeah in Europe. We were just at Libra polko and We had David avocado wolf and a bunch of other like people involved in health and wellness and all of them And like the one thing I was preaching to them is like open up on open up XMR bazaar XMR bazaar everywhere I was going dude. Rafael I became like Like ambassador I realizing it for XMR bazaar. So, um, so I told him I'm like I will interview you guys like all these people Right, I win it when your products are an XMR bazaar hit me up because then at that moment you become a crypto entrepreneur Yeah, yeah, cool, man So I'm gonna follow up on them because you know, I don't know if they actually have done it But have you seen an influx in XMR bazaar? Doug Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Monero Maverick is supposed to run a vibe and marketing is key. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And he's actually Monero Maverick because I recognize the account. He's been posting a lot on XMR Bazaar recently. Doug He just he put up like some designer suitcase. He put up some golf clubs that I'm probably going to grab and buy. A lot of people are making accounts, putting up listings. And we've been iterating. I don't know if you've kind of watched it from the early days. Doug They're like, it really kind of what's enough? People started using it. The UI or UX got really bad, really fast because it just like became a shit pile of listings. But now if you organized it better, you go to it, it flows nice. Doug And we're just making it more and more usable as more people join. But yeah, it's definitely seeing growth. I mean, I had somebody that on their own posted a supermarket here in New York City, in Queens, on the map that we have of Monero accepting locations, and I got in touch with the guy. Doug And sure enough, he was willing to accept Monero supermarket in Queens, New York. I mean, it's so it's it's functioning as as a utility of bringing people together that are looking to either earn Monero or spend Monero. Doug And no, you know, no fees, no fees taken. No. Are you serious? Yeah. Well, we're doing that for a while reasons. I mean, two reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, two reasons. First reason is because I really do want to do everything we can to maximize growth and utility. Doug So no fees. And then we'll figure out how to how to make money with, you know, other things. Right. You know, sponsor listings, things like that. Right. But this that gets rid of all the transactional friction. Doug Right. And then the second the second reason is obviously I don't want to be labeled the money transmitter in any way. Right. So the platform is built like, you know, like a Craigslist is just bringing buyers and sellers together. Doug And then all transactions are completely peer to peer between the buyer and seller XMR Bazaar plays no role. All the communication is PG being encrypted between the buyer and seller. The address fields, everything. Doug So XMR Bazaar really collects no data. We don't we don't know, you know, who's buying what from whom and the transactions are, you know, there might be some that I don't want to misspeak. And we could we could go through that in detail if, you know, at some point, it won't, you know, if the community ever wants to. Doug But for the most part, very little data and the transactions themselves is completely peer to peer between buyers and sellers with the Monero multisig that we built into it. And that that's that we're still working out the kinks. Doug It does work, but we're trying to make it as reliable as possible and very user friendly. It uses JavaScript. So it's like it's built into the website. It's it's it's it's pretty slick. So it's an easy user friendly way for people to use multisig. Doug So like this guy who's selling his suitcase for, you know, three thousand dollars, he's probably going to want to use the Monero multisig feature. And that as well doesn't rely on XMR Bazaar in any way. Doug It's just between a buyer, a seller and a third party mediator, which is just another user on the website. Rafael Alright man, so let me tell you who else I got into, um, forget it, uh, Clive the Carl, there you go. So there's this dude in the UK, his name is Clive the Carl, he's a badass, he's like the, um, what's the name of the, uh, the dude that talks about reptilians? Rafael Anyways, he's just, he's just a, he's a badass. Clive the Carl, um, he's a badass when it comes to, um, health and wellness. Doug Okay. And his telegram- Get him down to Monerotopia, man. Rafael he's in the UK dude he's got this bed that you sit on it looks like a lounge chair and it's powered by a bunch of different um he's got he's got tesla machines for health this is incredible but he's got this chair that's like a lot like a lot like a lawn chair sit back and it has like mortars up and down and they're all at certain different frequencies they vibrate at different frequencies and you go through a meditation while you're on this chair and you're blindfolded you're wearing this headset and this thing has this thing um takes uh gets rid of trauma you know how animals they shake after they have an um a traumatic experience so this does that to you as a human person i was on that chair for a good oh my god dude this chair was like i was like i felt like i was just it was i woke up i woke up like in the middle of the night like feeling the vibrations man it was it was that cool it was amazing so i told them i'm like clive look i want the chair but i will only buy it for monero nice so you make sure you set up all the shop of all of your products health and wellness products on xmr bazaar Doug Oh, my God. Yeah. Bring people to you. I will buy one of the I will buy one of those shares. Rafael So that's really where we have to hit. That's where we have to go hard, man. We have to go hard with health and wellness. Everyone, for example, Beamer bags. Beamer bags are, Beamer, not bags, Beamer, they're called mattresses, Beamer batresses. Rafael It's a technology used for race horses that also vibrates and like opens up your blood vessels. It's extremely amazing. And they now have it for human persons where you lie on them. And the same thing, I told the Beamer people, open up on XMR Bazaar. Doug Yes. Rafael So one of the biggest things that I have personally encountered in my life is that whenever I go to anarcho -poco or libro -poco, what I do is that I gravitate towards the health and wellness people, because I'm so caught up in tech that I forget to consume that information. Rafael And I realize that those are our people. Those are the people who should be. Same tribe. Doug Yeah. Rafael Monero, they should be operating in Monero through and through so every farmers market should be using Monero Doug Oh, 100%. Yeah, farmers, farmers for sure. Yeah. But yeah, health and wellness in general, I mean, because, you know, it's definitely the same tribe, right? Same tribe. Rafael And they love the idea. So, um, David avocado wolf, he's got amazing products. Um, the guy from bulletproof coffee as well. Um, all those dudes man just line them up one after another. So, which is cool because we can have like, you know, community reviews on all these products and, and they can, you know, it is in a nutshell, we're the same tribe band. Rafael And so I'm really excited to do this. And it's incredible that I found myself promoting XMR Bazaar so much. Doug I love that, man. That means it's working as intended, right? Simple website, you know, obviously Monero market, you know, this isn't a novel idea. I think it's just right time, right place, right? And I just made some tweaks, like I said, with the zero fees, the trustless escrow, right? Doug When Monero market started, it had fees, I think it still does, and it had escrow, you had to trust XMR, you know, so nobody kind of gave a stab on a truly just kind of open source marketplace. And Monero, as we're saying here, just works perfectly as the utility for it for digital cash purposes. Doug I know we saw like attempts with open bazaar in the early days, right? Earlier days of Bitcoin. What is that? Rafael This is, if you wanna open up my screen so people can see all of him, my phone's about to die soon, I have 5%. This is Clive the Coral, he's the guy with the cool bag on Telegram. Go on his Telegram, guys, and tell him that you saw me talk about his new lawn chair. Rafael Go on his Telegram right now, it's Clive the Coral Health, and tell him that you just saw the crypto vigilante, all Monero talk, and remind him to open up shop on XMR Bazaar, now, now, now, now, okay? Rafael That we wanna buy his products with Monero. I also want you guys to- Doug Oh, it's Clive. I'm gonna put it in the chat. It's Clive Dell Clive Dell you Rafael Yeah, Clive Dell Health, oh dude, give me a second, let me go back, Clive the Coral. Doug Live Del Carl, right? Yeah, it's a lot to say right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There it is Rafael He's he's he's got incredible products dude incredible products Um, also, I want you guys this is this is a heavy hitter in the world of health and wellness like his telegram has 122 .6 thousand people. Rafael Okay, david avocado wolf. I need you guys to Go on his channel right now On telegram. All right. I need how many people do we have on stream right now watch? Doug this we got almost 200 people guys like and share and let's let's do this make this happen I mean this story Rafael This is our guys from now on we're gonna do guerrilla marketing campaigns for Monero. Okay, I want to come on your show Doug and I want to bring in every Doug You're welcome anytime, my man. Rafael And we're gonna do I just want to come in just bring me in and I'm gonna I'm gonna do this I'm gonna lay up people like David avocado wolf. It's this week. It's uh, David. I'm avocado wolf with an e at the end Doug Got it. I'm posting it in the chat. Rafael on telegram i want he has a crew like he rolls he goes from conference to conference so he has his own crew of like health and wellness people uh shamans and like dude like dude i bought some ivermectin pills from him that have CBD like it's a creation that these guys came up with it's CBD mixed with ivermectin i was like dude that's super cool like and supposedly like and has something else um so Doug Those are people I love, you know, yeah, I could definitely go down that route. I mean, that's something worth spending But I feel like you're doing like a friggin info, but I mean health and wellness is obviously something worth spending spending your Precious Monero's on right? Doug Yeah Rafael So I want you guys right now to put go to go to this telegram and put this Monero talk episode and he's got my DM Okay, like I got his I got his personal DM and I'm gonna help him on board his whole crew of health and wellness Coaches his whole coverage on this like we're gonna do this guys Doug Does he so have you spoken to him about it at all? No, right. You haven't spoken to him. Oh, yeah, of course, dude Oh, yeah about it. Yeah, does he does he like does he get obviously not just even as right? Doug All right, it's cool He's receiving an arrow. Nobody knows about it But it does he get the whole, you know parallel economy concept and like when this ultimately leads to well We're all opted out of the system. Doug I mean that that's the power right? I mean, yeah, it's it's Not just that all right now. I'm using Monero We we are building an economy outside of the state surveillance system That's the frickin that's the end goal right and and literally all the technology is there Monero exists the ability to come on the internet on a platform like XMR Bazaar and meet each other to engage in Commerce also exists. Doug So it's it's just a matter of coordination marketing And really Mindshare right and getting the message across to the degree that people understand why this is such a powerful concept for humanity It's it's it's Rafael Let's find these guys on Twitter. Maybe it's better to find them on Twitter, on X, because I don't think he can send messages on his telegram. All right. Well, they're very cool, man. Yeah. I think this is what we got to do, guys. Rafael We got to do this. We have to ... What do you think? Doug What do you think the parallel economy like, I'm excited about XMR Bazaar and all the usage I'm seeing of Monero. What do you think things look like in a couple of years from now? Is this the beginning of a ... Doug Are we approaching a tipping point? Do you feel like we're approaching potentially a new phase here in Monero adoption? Rafael I think so because there is a there's a there are what's happening right now That's really grabbing people's attention crypto is the idea that you can get rich fast and it's always been but now it's like if I create something then I can um, I can potentially like milk the exponential function found within a big blockchain like Bitcoin by creating an application and And so that's really what drives the crypto market right now and what has always driven the crypto market But there is there is only so so much that that idea can penetrate because you have to win people over through like, Rafael um, their understanding of what's the lowest common denominator and the physical world and what you need needs to be Accessible through these technologies and I think that I think that we have to we have to bridge ourselves to other worlds that are that are parallel to us like the health and wellness We just we just have to so there is an opportunity for Monero to go viral But that comes down to how we talk about Monero and how we not just how we use Monero But how we talk about Monero and how we emphasize it and I think that store of value is a very powerful mean I want to come back to that because it's nothing more than a sigh up There was nothing more than a sigh up like there's nothing really special about Bitcoin for it to be the store of value There really isn't it's just an idea that took over But if we were to follow it to its logical conclusion Monero is a better store of value so I think we need to start talking about Monero as a store of value as digital gold as the digital cash and And that it's worthwhile saving in Monero that Monero cannot be used as a pass -through So as much as I championed the use of Monero in the market, Rafael I think that a stronger meme is is to completely revert and take back the meme of sound money and sound store of value from BTC because BTC is not Intrinsically in itself is not a good store of value Like sure we could print a billion billion dollars worth of tether tomorrow and say whoa, bro Look, it's it's it's appreciative value and and you can be put in partnership with BlackRock all you want But it's it's functionality is not a place where you want to store value. Rafael It's it invites financial voyeurism It's just not a safe place. It's not a smart place to store money So you you have to the Monero community has to take that mean back Monero is the place for hodling for store of value. Rafael It belongs to Monero more than anywhere else in all of crypto And you guys really need to take ownership of that and they're very influential people in Monero I'm gonna call it out like fluffy pony who's who was against this idea and I thought it was ridiculous Like how the fuck are you against this idea that Monero is a store of value like this is dumb No, no, Monero is the store of value it's the best technology to store value in and and and and it's it's just an idea that once it catches on a will increase adoption and market penetration of Monero Doug I'm right, I'm right there with you, Matt. I've been- Rafael keep saying it's only a pass through for privacy it's only a pass it's just you know what's the meme that people say hodl bitcoin spend monero no no that's extremely stupid you like this like Doug It is. It is stupid. You're just exposing, you're adding, you're adding, adding like the ability to potentially surveil your transaction. Just stay in Monero and use Monero. You know, old Monero, earn Monero, use Monero, right? Doug And then that's it. And then you've, you've, you've opted out. Plus now you're, you're going up in value as Medcalf's law, you know, takes place more users, more people using it. Scarcity kicks in and, you know, it goes up in value with the private, with your privacy intact and your ability to spend it anonymously, use it anonymously, and live off of it anonymously. Rafael Guys the huddle was nothing more than a psyop. It really was it's it's literally i'm pretty sure there was a well orchestrated marketing scheme by some sign or somewhere that said You know what we're gonna make bitcoin into the most stupid playground ever That's completely transparent seven transactions per second. Rafael It's not gonna scale We're gonna tell them that something will happen in 18 months. Something is gonna happen. Something's gonna never is gonna happen And and nothing's ever gonna happen It's just gonna be this bullshit chain that gets clogged up and we're gonna pump it with fiat We'll just print out more tethers from tethered reserve And and give them this idea that this is a store of value and we live in a world where people are so dumb That that became a self -fulfilling prophecy and store of value all big BTC store Doug value. It was it was it was Barry Silbert and those guys you know that when they saw you know Bitcoin was failing as cash they came up with the store the store they really started pushing the store of value mean right it's digital gold anything Rafael Don't use XMR Bazaar, guys. How do I hear one arrow? Every time you see something being sold, I would... Doug We disagree with that Rafael Smarter -than -you trying to take your Monero from you. It's all a sigh up This is all a sigh up the smartest people in crypto are loading up on Monero All right That's the truth guys that no one wants to tell you and the smartest people in crypto Like you know what's interesting go to a Monero conference. Rafael You see the Bitcoin cash guys You see the BTC guys you see the BSC guys Well, I thought you guys were warring for the past decade Well, all of a sudden you guys are all chummy with each other and best friends when it comes to Monero It's like BTC Bitcoin all the flavors of Bitcoin are like, you know You put on the seatbelt when the cop drove drives by and everyone's like, you know Like but the moment they go home and they chill with their homies. Rafael It's like Monero everywhere It's the funniest thing happened, dude Like I was interviewing a BSB guy like a couple more like years ago, dude And in the back of his house, all he had was like Monero post And I don't think he knew that we knew that we can see like the Monero Memorabilia all over his house and here he's shilling BSB. Rafael I'm like, what the fuck is going on? But that's the truth, bro Like most people in crypto the smartest people in crypto have Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana as their day job but when they get down with their homies, they're all Monero dudes and and the reason why Monero is not here to sigh out people like there is no like an orchestrated group of people trying to sigh up you into Monero If anything Monero has the worst marketing don't buy Monero Like people thought that was funny. Rafael But the thing is is that like the level of intelligence Doug Well, it's the best way to grab to grab as much as you can before anybody else right don't don't don't don't store it Rafael But the level of intelligence is so high that the community kind of finds itself isolated. Yeah. Doug But I got to say, though, to clarify, like I think using it is extremely important for all those reasons, I'm saying building out the parallel economy. But yeah, I never understood why that meant that meant that it goes down in value versus other that's like that makes no sense. Doug It literally gains utility as more people are using it, which is all the more reason to hold it, because it's going to go up in value as more people are using it because now its use case is growing, its utility is growing, right? Doug So, I mean, it's where, you know, FluffyPony's, you know, his he was he was stressing, you know, just just use it. And then I do think the don't buy Monero was really his way of saying just use Monero. Doug Right. You know, I don't I don't know why it got to the point. You know, I disagree that it went like as far as no, no, no, no, no. Monero is is going down in value versus Bitcoin, like always trying to make sure that that was the message that I've always fundamentally disagreed with. Doug But I don't think that means that we say store it, store it, we say store it, store it, store it and usage second. I do think its utility literally comes from the usage. So that's why we want to drive that home as much as possible. Doug And then anybody with half a brain would realize, OK, if if if I'm using it, and I see utility in it, then I imagine other people are also going to see utility in it and this thing is going to go up in value. Doug Right. So that's almost like a secondary thought that should just come to everybody's mind that actually is using it. Rafael Yeah, OK, so so the huddling drives up utility and the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute in the early days of Bitcoin, most notably Daniel Krewitz, who they called the Emperor of Bitcoin, talked about it that if you lower Bitcoin, if you huddle Bitcoin, it creates more demand for it. Rafael Sure. You know, the price goes up. No scarcity. If the price goes up, then more marketing happens and more people adopt it. And it's a self -fulfilling prophecy and there's more use for it. But you have to, if you want to grow a network, you have to do what drives number go up first and foremost, saying only spend Monero or use Monero as a pass through like all BTC maxis say, only for its privacy as a pass through. Rafael That's what they say. But you've got to understand, they're side -oping you. Doug No, I got trust me. I mean obviously not telling that to obviously I've known that I mean, yeah I've been debating I've been debating, you know people that have been pushing this sigh up from the the early days, right? Doug Even fluffy pony asking him, you know a lot why why why say don't don't don't buy Monero, you know And really the samurai guys like right like that was really part of their message Is Monero is just a tool that's you know, ultimately trending to zero against Bitcoin But use it, you know to to obfuscate your transactions Rafael Yeah, what were they really doing right? Like right understand that they were serving a master and those masters were people with heavy Bitcoin bags That needed some sort of obfuscation because you can't call that private like anonymity privacy Obfuscation to move funds in the in a way that is safer for them. Rafael All right, cool, dude But you're just being so you're just you like they were they were playing for someone else Like they weren't thinking like of what truly is better technology for us Doug Well, honestly, I think from the Samurai point of view, their bread and butter was selling technology to wash your Bitcoin, essentially, right? Selling the ability to use it. I know they were doing it an open source way, and it was trustless, I'm not saying. Doug But effectively, what they were doing was selling that service, right? So if everybody started using Bitcoin, there'd be no need to use Samurai while you wouldn't be needing to wash your Bitcoin. So that was ultimately why they were incentivized to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, just use Monero, you know, hold Bitcoin and use Monero, right? Doug And you're going to have to use Samurai because Bitcoin does have this critical flaw, by the way, right? And if everybody just started using Monero, then there'd be no need to use Samurai, right? So that's really, you know, it was just what their business was incentivized to do. Doug They sold it like it was more cypherpunk. But really, it's less cypherpunk. The cypherpunk crypto anarchist way would be to just hold Monero and use Monero to just be 100% Monero and live in the parallel economy. Rafael Yeah, so what I tell people when I invite them to open up XMR Bazaar, and I tell them about it, I tell them whatever you sell on XMR Bazaar, keep it like save your Monero for years, like just to save it man, like, like try to do that if you go in with that intention. Rafael I tell them that is what I find best because I see there's the best technology for for to have money on chain. It is the best money. It's the best on chain utility for the biggest need in the world, which is sound money. Rafael So Monero is the on chain alpha of alphas. It is the it still is and there's nothing like it. So, but the meme has to again, the meme has to carry itself with the idea that this is the best place to store value first and foremost. Rafael So I disagree with you. I think everyone should realize that Monero is going to go up in price. Monero has the potential of being more valued in the market than Bitcoin. I think that we will even see companies do the micro strategy, but it's going to be the Monero strategy, the smartest companies in the world will do the Monero strategy. Rafael It's not going to be the micro strategy. Micro strategy is stupid. If you really think about it, it's like, yo, look at my you can see everyone can see our balance sheet. Oh, look how dumb you know how we allocate our resources as a publicly traded company. Rafael No, there's going to be a Monero strategy. There's going to be many Monero strategies. Once this idea this in this reality that Monero is the best store value. Remember even Michael Saylor said Monero is just too good. Rafael It's almost like anathema for him. Like, yeah, this can't be that good. Doug Yeah, but I don't I don't I don't think we disagree though. I don't think we disagree. Well, I yeah, I'm just telling you guys Rafael XMR Bazaar is more likely smarter people than you. Doug Yes, I would totally say Rafael You know the truth man. Yeah, everyone in the future starting now is gonna want to take your Monero They're gonna try to sigh up you they're gonna try to sell you something cute that you're gonna you probably buy a Prius We're a couple Monero and then that you know, yeah now there's gonna be like a Lambo and five homes in the future You know, it's gonna happen but you that awareness has to grow. Rafael So the real hodler is in crypto Doug The mindset, the proper mindset is use and earn Monero, right? It's just like regular money, right? You use money, but you also earn money, but obviously with the goal of your store of value going up over time so that you're using less than you're earning, right? Doug That's the mindset with regular money, like from when you're a child, right? I want to have more of it than what I'm spending and it slowly goes up. So that's that is the mindset you need with Monero. Doug And so that doesn't mean that spending can't exist. No, you can still you still spend, but always try to grow your stack, which means all for services for it, you know, earn it, earn it, earn it and spend it. Doug And I really don't think one makes the other obsolete or Rafael I agree. I want to be emphatic on the one that has been Doug There could be more of that there could be more of that message people do we need to keep we need to kill them Like you said we need to it's more not it's more importantly just kill the meme of You know hold Bitcoin and spend Monero. Doug That's complete bullshit. That's just complete bullshit Yeah, that is like and like and everybody like you know kind of goes along with I mean, it's kind of like It's the Bitcoiners way. It's also it's also a smart move by Monero people right because it opens up the door to Bitcoiners using Monero without them being rejected from their Bitcoin Society right like oh, no, I'm using yeah, but that's why Rafael Like that whole idea is dead like Doug Like, you know, if it gets them in the door, it gets them in the door, right? Because psychologically, these people can't, you know, overcome the fact that they're whatever going to be rejected by their Bitcoin fraternity brothers, right? Doug So they have to sell it in a way of like, no, no, it's still Bitcoin, bro. But I'm just using it. Rafael OK, so look, the vast majority of gains that have happened in Bitcoin history happened in like like 2012, 2013. That's where you had like a 9000 percent gain, 3000 percent gains in the price of Bitcoin. Rafael Do you think you'll see that again in Bitcoin? Right. Doug That's the other things too, like, just that you're, yeah, yeah. Rafael Okay, do we reach the the I the small blocker big Bitcoin experiment reaches apex you have you got your blackrock ETF Where's the pump you got the biggest empire in world history the presidential candidate saying that that you know that he welcomes it As a strategic reserve for the country. Rafael Where's the pump? Doug right i'm waiting for the pump i want there was a little there's a little one today okay Rafael Well, but is that is it gonna be anything comparable to 2013 2012 we? Doug I mean how many how many more times how many more times could it double right? How many more times can Bitcoin double is the question, you know, it could only double so many more times So you could put your life savings into it You know, you could put ten thousand into it. Doug You're not gonna be you know Make a mega Jill gazillionaire in a couple of years, right? It's only gonna it'll go up It'll go up, but it's not like the old days where it was doubling 10X thing I mean you might see another 10x that's you know in the long run right in the in the years But yeah, you're not going to be seeing doubling tripling in price, right? Rafael Right. But everyone knows what Dr. Daniel Kim is famous for saying that everyone bought BTC thinking that they bought Monero. So like the whole marketing for BTC for the past since 2017 or 2014 really has been store of value, digital gold. Rafael Dude, that's really what Monero truly is. So eventually that's going to happen. The BSV guys did the Monero community a huge favor. Huge favor. Remember, I brought a bunch of BSV people together with a bunch of Monero people in Miami one day at the Monero conference because I know that these communities complement each other. Rafael Like so BSV people, they made BTC, they showed how BTC is actually made to be ever less fungible. And you can't stop that. So all of this bullshit civil war that we had in Bitcoin where they literally changed. Rafael They removed section two of the white paper and BTC and they had a segwit. They moved the chain of digital signatures to an extended block in order to do away with on -chain footprinting from, you know, transaction to transaction. Rafael That all has been like it doesn't matter all that bullshit that all of that is trite now, because now with everything that's happening in BTC, you have ordinals itself is tracking in a way we've never seen before. Rafael It's literally coloring every Satoshi like like you can't make Doug this shit up, it's like grabbing the opposite of fungible. It's it's an NFT, man. It's an NFT, you know, every Bitcoin is a super NFT. It's a digital property. I describe it as digital, digital property, digital publicly like property where the ownership is publicly known, right? Doug Like perfectly known. It's like owning a piece of property. It's worse than like owning a piece of property even had because it's like it's it's even more clear as to who the true owner is. And that's all you could do is say, you know, look, I own this digital thing. Doug Without any of the value of real property, but we are at the point. Rafael That was the true destiny of Bitcoin if this is part of the opcode Satoshi gave us to make Bitcoin more usable as as on chain as assets as digital goods that are consumer goods and and capital goods that we build on chain through programmability on chain so like this is all proper to Bitcoin from day one Satoshi gave us all of this in Bitcoin's architecture. Doug we are at 300 live views guys like and share we're approaching an hour i'm going to quickly play an important message Speaker 4 But are you interested in privacy, freedom, technology, and Monero? Come to the conference that has it all, Monero -Tilpia 2024. Join us in our world class of cypherpunk speakers to discuss all things freedom. Speaker 4 Engage in the Monero's circular economy. Go shopping at the open -air Monero marketplace. Join a workshop. Enter a hackathon. Opt out of dystopia and into Monero -Tilpia. At Huertor Roma Verde, Mexico City, Mexico, November 14th through 17th. Speaker 4 For only one easy payment of $89 for general admission. Or get the VIP ticket for one easy payment of $249, payable in Monero. And enjoy discounted drinks at the bar and dinner with the speakers. Get your tickets now, wives supply flask. Speaker 4 This deal won't last forever. Get your tickets now at Meritopia .com. Enter promo code 1 -800 -MONEROTOPIA to get 10% off your order. Doug yeah right i love that thing untraceable made that fantastic chap um Rafael Monero community needs to start thinking higher of itself. It is the promise that the world was given falsely through BTC and through Bitcoin cash, they they lied to the world, BTC and Bitcoin cash lied to the world. Rafael And they told the world that they were going to give people what Monero is. So, guys, there has to be an initiative to like have a marketing campaign. And it starts with us, all of us, realizing that Monero is the digital gold that everyone desires, guys. Rafael It really is. So Hado Monero, Hado Monero, Hado Monero. That is that is my battle cry from now on. Hado Monero, Hado Monero. And the whole the whole that whole battle cry of Hado BTC is really is bullshit. Rafael It's just a sigh of guys. No one in their right mind will want a butt naked coin. It makes no sense. So it's just a self -fulfilling prophecy that now we know was really behind BTC. It's BlackRock. We know who's behind BTC. Rafael We know who really is behind BTC now. I don't know if you guys realize it's usual suspects and they're pumping in with their Fiat. So, oh, yeah, with this. Doug the truth guys the truth is it's been co -op man it's it's balls have been cut off your grandma tipped a dollar and 11 cents the point of Monero is to create a circular economy earn Monero save Monero use Monero earn more that that's this is my thinking this is my thing and this is and it doesn't it doesn't discount it's not saying don't hold it hold it man hold it hold as much as you can get your hands on but then use it because there's so much value when you use it it's better than using any other type of money for your expenses because you could buy things now anonymously the person receiving it is receiving it and obviously and you are you are sucking the life out of the current state apparatus by creating this parallel economy out here and and that just goes up in value as a whole as more people do it so it's the that's the bat my my battle cry is if we use it we win if we use it we win and I don't think that discount that definitely does not discount holding hold as much as you possibly can I will say I mean I live by it right I'm you know obviously I lost you know a large chunk of it in a boating accident but you know my my my value is is in Monero I hold I hold Monero you know and then I live off it I think I think maybe you just have to get to that point where you're essentially all Monero right because then you're you're forced to use it when you need to use right because you got to live right so right you spend you like we run our businesses off of Monero but that's also how we how we earn Monero right I yeah I I acquire it by selling value to you know to people for Monero right Rafael Agree I agree, but there's something about sigh off of hodl man. Oh, yeah People hodl hodl hodl and I think I think obviously like you said Anyone smart enough will know that this is what you want to store over time, you know, this is the real deal This is the standard for cryptocurrency as currency. Rafael This is the real deal guys like Monero is the is there's there's no community like it There's no community like it if anything you see other privacy competitors being nourished by Monero I really like what you're doing at your conferences Doug that you're inviting other Privacy -oriented projects. Rafael Oh, yeah. Sure. There was a very strong wave of Monero maximalism in the early days, which was cool Because everyone need every community needs that but I I love that dude. I love that. Yeah Doug there from the beginning when we started to do it in Miami, right? And even then, it was like, I had to go slow with it, right? Because it makes sense because it just makes the tent larger, right? There's only so many people that are actually into digital cash. Doug They're really like, hey, I want to use another. So to then divide that community and be like, oh no, the pirate chain people shouldn't hang out with the Monero people. We're just hurting ourselves. We got to all all come together, right? Doug I mean, we're just hurting ourselves by not all bringing everybody into the same tent that's interested in it for that reason, for being able to change and act. Rafael I don't know all these other communities like Kayabunr, shine light into them and and throwing out like Doug Yeah, it's good for them. I mean, it's like it's such a benefit for their for their projects I mean if they if they want to compete and they want people that they want people to start using their stuff They have to exactly they have to shine light on it. Doug They have to let the people look under the hood, right? Rafael What I've seen in my interactions, I really like the dynamic that I see between the pirate chain community and the Monero community because there's been a lot of camaraderie recently and I've seen the pirate chain community, it's almost like a little brother growing and really taking feedback from the Monero guys and the Monero guys, I've seen them at conferences, like a big brother, gently giving feedback, Rafael but being respectful too. And then I've seen the pirate chain guys really take that feedback, it's been a very interesting dynamic to see. I have a nerve what he did with Dara was hilarious, but I'll see you next time. Doug How epic would it be if we had Dero at Monerotopia, and like we had a panel with Luke Varshan? It could happen, it could happen, but it comes out- I tried. Yeah, I tried. Dero people are, you know, the captain doesn't want to let anybody, I think, deal with us. Doug I don't know, the captain has cut off his people from Monerotopia. Rafael it seems to me that there was more of a from the their community that I've noticed is more of the people around the developers not the developers itself the developers seem to be really cool people like Joshi and them like they're all really cool people captain like you can tell like they're active but it's really like this cohort of individuals around them that um and I can't say it's all of them like I've had very um there's this dude within the community I find very insightful and I uh his name is Ansem he very insightful very really cool dude like if there was someone to to speak at a Monero conference I would I think it would be someone like him you know very uh send him send him our way man send him our way um another guy that I I was very impressed by um in the coming in the Dero community was uh it goes by objective alpha badass good uh badass uh researcher um another one is Slix um who now has a uh he started off his own project called Zelix um um he who was the first one you named the first one um the first one Ansem Ansem Ansem yeah like really cool dude um overall like when you know in person I I met them on they were all incredible people like I really enjoyed the Dero community dude you know what happened to me man um I I dude I choked up man at the Dero conference bro first time bro I choked up bro like a little bitch bro like I yeah and I'm a dude that doesn't cry man and like I choked up you know why everyone was so fucking young man it was it blew my mind bro Doug Like I thought you joked up in the in the in the moment of what you Rafael I was gonna go into a room with a bunch of like old, you know, cypherpunk dudes from like the early internet Hippies, you know, yeah, you know I thought that was walking into that like old cypherpunk vibe and i've been around these guys, right? Rafael like the first fellows for every company That don't have a smartphone that all have flip phones if that and they're like really scared of the internet that they Created by you know be part of the early internet So I and because I thought this this is who I was interacting with in their community Dude, when I get there, it's all young people man, like super young like early 20s And at that moment I was like, Rafael oh my god freedom is going is going nowhere Like there's gonna be freedom fighters like that. I'm looking at the next generation and And daro is cool technology, bro It is I like it I and I think that the healthiest thing that could have happened to daro is what had happened with kyabatr I'm hearing that they are working on on Fixing all of those bugs that he pointed out and that they're rolling out a new update in the in the near future I don't know Doug Tell them to come, talk about it, tell them to come air it out. Exactly, right? Rafael Yeah, Monero Monero topia would be the place to do that and if your body is, you know If you guys know anybody from the their community, you know plug them into this conversation I'm sure they you know that even if they want to conference in and do it remotely Is this is something else that I learned from them Doug is is that they all are very young crowd Okay, so Kayaba is not as young right like yeah Oh my that whole that whole crew of new Monero developers are young young. Rafael It's kind of like the same night, bro It was all but two young people and um, and so it was uh, it was it was a very beautiful moment for me to encounter that man and and interesting Doug Yeah, it was a very very I mean the old the only caveat right if they we would ask them to contribute in some way as a project right because that's how we justify that's how I justify it to the community to getting these other products involved they come they present their technology but it's not a shill fest right they're gonna they're gonna be you know prosecuted right people are gonna they're gonna be asked the tough questions and then we just ask that they you know sponsor in some way for taking the stage right so that it's not just them taking advantage of a platform to to basically shill but yeah I would be more than happy to engage with them get them up on stage but yeah just haven't been able to really find them where what where was this Darrow conference that you was it a Darrow conference or was it was a Rafael Dero conference it happened in Phoenix at a casino yeah it was in Phoenix last year like around November it was called um what was it called non -census yeah right okay you told no nonsense nonsense it was dude it was uh I I was very Doug I wish I would have showed up to them. I don't know if they would have looked in the door Rafael should probably go to the next one there's an extra all right let's do this not opposed you and I if you go to the next one I'll go with you okay all right and I mean yeah I do it I mean there might be a conflict Doug I'm right now. I have no I have no, you know reason to but yeah, they should they should come they should come to Monero too I agree. I think Rafael they should as well. Will Tori have a presence at Monerotopia? Doug We're trying to get him to come. I haven't I haven't heard a final word. I think they get their heads down They're really busy right now. I think they're trying to trying to launch something soon I don't know I said that's the thing right soon. Doug It's in soon They missed the whole fucking like NFT shit like yo guys Feature is what you know they're more. You know I tried to get him to come I think they should come obviously dark five will be there Pirate chain will be there. Doug Zanna will be there. Basic swap will be there. Furo will be there Who else we got we got I don't know who else I'm forgetting some other ones Obviously very excited with to have dark five there that that's super cool Yeah, we'd love to have tari there as well. Doug We'd like to have z cash there and yeah, and Darrow So yeah, I think that'd be cool right cuz Darrow comes up something Pirate chain will be there yep nice Rafael Yeah, it's working on their implementation of orchard now, which is getting rid of the the trusted setup. So that's cool, you know, so yeah, it's a Doug It's they're kind of like the they're kind of like the Wow narrow of Z cash Almost right Rafael I mean... Doug Yeah, I guess they're more quicker to iterate and add, you know what, I think you're right. Rafael I think you're right. Um, yeah, but I mean zcash is like I don't know. I don't like zcash man. It's like Doug No, I mean for what they are, right? Yeah. But you got to respect their techs. You got to respect the research and development they've done. But the whole ethos and community, they've got it all completely wrong. Doug They've had investors, essentially. They had centralized entities tied to the project. They bent the knee to regulators. And they just spread a meme of of working with the powers that be, as opposed to being like, no, we're building a tool that's here to disrupt them. Rafael Yeah, that's why I'm all for the pirate chain project. Doug Yeah, they have that ethos, right? Like, they're like, no, we're, we're the Zcash version of, you know, anarchists, right? Anarchism, right? Rafael theory you want to hear my theory of course the reason why full chain membership proves has been they're like hitting the gas on it is because pirate chain is getting better and better every day the anonymity set for pirate chain right now is 12 million at this moment in time pirate chain is the most private cryptocurrency on the planet more private than monero all day every day so you need to hit the gas on full chain membership proves to be competitive on a once ahead one map Doug I don't know we could have we could have Luke give his opinion on pirate. Oh, no, you lied of an arrow topia No, but we'll hear his full is He's a but obviously it's we'll say member full chain membership proofs is you know The narrow like you said right has always been competing with itself, right? Doug It's looking in the mirror every day being like how how could I get more jacked in terms of privacy? And it's it's it's fully committed to that. Right? It's it's known that ring signatures needs to be deprecated and I think I think where it was really the wake -up call with you know chain analysis Using this flaw that's been known in Monero right and everybody talking about it forever forever and now seeing all right now They're they're actually they're actually trying to utilize that attack the eval sieve attack We have we have to fix that we got if you got a fix that was really the driving factor Obviously sure pirate sure you're competing competing against others as well. Doug Sure. So Rafael So is this like, is this kind of like, you know, in a tangential way, how Justin Aaron Hoffer is blockchain analytics companies helping with that? Doug It is anything 100% 100% I would agree with that all is becoming real Yeah, I mean, you know, I Honestly agree with that like Arctic of mind and I were talking the other day like there should be an open source version of chain analysis, right and You'll you'll you'll you'll basically undermine the chain analysis companies because now it's it's no longer some some private tech that they could take Advantage of and sell and then it also just exposes what what the Monero Community needs to do to best thwart any attack, Doug right? It's just I think that is you know, that's the adversarial mindset the open source mindset So, you know what? Rafael the name of his company again of Justin Airdhoppers. Doug Blockchain. Oh, yeah, I forget. What is the name of it? I forget the name. Yeah. Have you talked? I got it. I know have you talked? Yes. Yes Well, I'm percent we had him on as soon as he started to do it We had him on I think Monero topia. Doug We had him on and so it was the early I need to have him on again I tried to get him down to Monero topia conference. I don't think he's coming down. But I need another Monero talk with him. They get an update on I'm saying analysis of an era. Doug I mean, it's unbelievable, right Rafael mean he's got to be you know if his company is making waves he's got to have in my opinion what you would call some sort of like corporate zero day on Monero I'm just saying it could be Doug I mean, he's just provide, you know, Monero, if he, his take has always been you can, you know, probabilistically narrow things down in Monero from the ring signature standpoint. You know, that's it. Doug Right. And there's a market for that, right? The government doesn't care that, you know, this may not 100% be the guy, they'll use it, they'll try to use it as evidence. Rafael And that's why if you really want privacy right now, in anonymity, you should be using pirate chain. I wouldn't. I wouldn't agree with that. People zero is property. What's the secret about it? It's there. Rafael It's there, so... I mean, you're... 12 million. Inonymity set of 12 million, bro. Like... Yes. So I think, honestly think that that's why, because every time I would run into Kayaba Nurb at different conferences, there were pirate people that were like, annoying people. Rafael Listen, listen. And so I think... Bring it. Bring that. Doug Because you're getting a ring is up the very great. That's what I bring this up at minute Bring this up at Monero topia, right? Well, cuz pirate chain will be there will break will bring this up on stage We'll have we'll have Luke give his assessment of pirate chain versus Monero in terms of which you should be using for transacting All right. Doug Well, let's see where he where he arrived. You know how he is. He's just Rafael the Doug Maybe maybe yeah, I'll speak the truth Rafael He'll speak the truth look has been in my opinion one of the best Contributors the pirate chain believe it or not yeah Doug My opinion, he has been, because He's giving them Rafael He gives a feedback. He gives a criticism and the pirate ship people go back and they cook based on that criticism Like they take their medicine and they go better things out You know, yes, there's there's a lot of things that you know that partian is a mammoth project It really is but they take the medicine and they work on it. Rafael It's not like they fade in they're like no Dude, this is bullshit. No, it's like they really Doug Monero uses his own standalone blockchain and proof -of -work system, which is considered more secure than Pirate Chain's reliance on Komodo's proof -of -work system. There's one argument there, you know, there's too many others. Rafael Maverick, I love you, but you don't get it, brother. Doug Arjan, he's the project director. Rafael for another blockchain. Doug Listen, they'll be at Monerotopia, they'll be at Monerotopia, and we get along with like the pirate ship people that do get there, they're like really nice, like, and so, yeah. Rafael they are they are very um you you they know they know where they know their place and they really are they really value Monero so like the pirate chain community has has at at the beginning when pirate chain first came out there was kind of like you know it's like the new girl in school right and so everybody's like you know it's like the there's a mean girl vibe right but then after time now it's more like okay like there's a humility that has really emerged within pirate chain that's really and Monero again Monero has been very instrumental in in helping pirate chain get better over time because you and this is what I pointed out to Kayaba when I first hung out with him at the last Monero topia was look man a lot of what we're seeing in pirate chain right now mirrors a lot of what we saw in early Monero history a lot of this a lot of this a lot of similar energy with difficulties right Monero even had like finding its way growing a a false ethos honoring a false ethos like creating a community funding project for open source development you know like marketplaces where do you put your energy in you know what aspect of development so it's you see a lot of the similar growing pains and after we have full chain membership proves all pirate chain will still be a good optional technology out in the open market that we can at the very least look to and and study and and learn from right so it's good optional technology that's the way I see it moving forward after full chain membership proves Doug We have a Super Chat, if I've missed some Super Chat, the maker tipped $1 .00, Monero powering your local blacksmiths, holds spend on your Monero. Yeah, he's been on XMR Bazaar, selling some handmade black smithered things. Doug And accepting Monero, I think he's made little custom hooks and stuff, very cool, very cool to see a blacksmith on XMR Bazaar. Nice. We have Manerito tipped 25 cents. Do you spend all the money you make? Doug Saying just spend and don't hold is stupid. I agree with you guys, 100%, 100%. And Manerito tipped again, oh, nope, it's the same. Tipped us 25 cents. Do you see what we're using here, by the way? These are Monero Super Chats. Doug Have you seen this? Yeah. Rafael Yeah, Mr. X was geeking out about it the other day. Doug XMRchat .com. You should be, yeah, you do live streams, right? Or you just do recorded. I do recorded. Rafael But I probably will in the future. Yeah, it's just Doug Yeah, if you do live put them up put them up and get your Monero tips get your Monero tips Maverick if the dark web doesn't adopt the coin. It's worthless as a currency I mean, that's that's kind of my my metric as well, right? Doug Look to where those who need it the most what tool they're choosing. It's a good way of looking at it All right, brother anything out. We got 362 live views guys. Thank you everybody for joining us today Like you can like and share still let's still get the word out. Doug So we'll be wrapping things up soon Well, very excited that you're very excited that you're coming down man Any let me just ask you before I forget any chance we get a birth down to and and anybody else you want involved? Doug From the the TCV crowd, which by the way, we're collaborating again We spoke. Yeah, I I Rafael I will I will have I will have team members there and and yeah, I could I if Jeff is around I'll definitely I'll bring him around well I'll talk to you about it. The thing is that Jeff is in Europe traveling with his family right now So I haven't had a chance. Rafael Okay. Okay. Okay. He's kind of like on vacation right now But I mean, that's this that's a stomping ground, Mexico, right? So yeah, um, yeah Guys, we are overall we're humanities in a very um As it's obvious everyone is in a very desperate state and everyone wants to make money and as people Get caught up in this debt -based spiral of be liver, you know, leveraging debt off each other people will panic more as time goes on and It doesn't matter how much number go up if we don't have freedom so it's really up to us as a community to really promote Monero and and and Use Monero like we've been talking Again, Rafael I'm emphatic on Monero hotto hotto Monero We use Monero as a store of value and drive that mean home to people again That's that's the proven meme that has worked for Bitcoin and it can work for for BTC up for Monero because it is Nothing more than an idea that went viral. Rafael That's all it was guys All it was just an idea that drove the number up the number goes up adoption goes up attention goes up We are competing with venture capital and a bunch of other coins being thrown out into the market competing for people's attention Monero's not going anywhere, but we just we just have to um, we just have to be clever about how we move forward because the way The good thing about Monero is that we have such a solid project that we have truth on our side and if we have truth on our side and we have the best tech on our side then The memes and the ideas that we put out should be very organic and natural. Rafael So We live in an attention focused economy where everyone's trying to take each other's attention away so make sure you you know, we you you become creative and have a lot of fun in Promoting Monero we have to move beyond the idea that Internet money is just something that you use at the gas station or at the pub or you know That was like very ten years ago Like internet money to use the best money the best source of digital currency in the world is to be used on the internet In a way that gives us freedom. Rafael So, um, yeah promote XMR bazaar as much as possible guys. That's that's what I've been doing and and Let's really bring it home because it's it's everyone watching guys. This is up to us. It's really up to us and Look it sounds very cliche, but you are Monero's marketing arm. Rafael You really are no one is no one else but you guys This is all very this is the most grassroots community we have in all of crypto. And so yeah, it's been it Doug We we really need I don't know why I'm always drawn. I'm always drawn to grassroots man. It's been the story of my life It's been the story of my life Because you know, this is this is the this is the revelation. Doug This is where the revolution is being fought This is this is the front lines. This is the front lines of crypto, right? Just the Monero the Monero Marines. I'm pulling up The maker here. He was just commenting before. Doug Yeah, this is this is our Monero resident blacksmith. He's been posting things up here. So it looks like he's selling little gold pin that he made Super cool, man. Super cool. All right, man. Oh, here's Monero Mavericks posts. Doug Well, what do you mean? This is the parish get it's a pressure washer. You sell the pressure washer. Everybody needs a pressure washer. No By two point nine two Monero. He's he's put up some really good ones Recently a bit yeti cooler. Doug Yeah, here the golf clubs. Don't buy them guys because I'm gonna buy these don't but don't buy the first 4 .61 Monero, obviously, you know, we get we got to see if If Monero Maverick is it is a trusted, you know is a trusted user. Doug I'll make my first transaction We'll see. Hopefully he says the clubs I could I could use the escrow Maybe I'll use the escrow on a train on a large transaction like that with him But he seems like a legit guy. Doug He's been he's been interacting a lot with the community. So all right, man Rafael And tell people to give discounts for their goods when sold on XMR Bazaar for Monero. So it encourages people to buy their products for Monero. Doug 100% 100% Rafael Yeah. Promote XMR Bazaar, guys. I really want to get all these awesome people that I've encountered on XMR Bazaar so that you guys can buy their awesome health products. Like these are people that we've vetted as a community and they have real cool products. Rafael Like it's definitely worth it. Definitely worth it. Doug They're selling for selling for discount is a good idea I'm speaking of discount you reminded me. I'm gonna put I'm gonna put it the TCV code for Awesome people to use so we only get this is the the most percentage off of any code that's out there. Doug So it's it's TCV 24 because we teamed up with you guys you guys helped a lot with selling tickets last year for the vert for the virtual So hopefully people use it but yeah big help you guys are tremendous helping them in the first year too, man So we enjoy like partnering with you working. Doug We went all out the first year. That was I know that was awesome, man I'm right next to the Bitcoin conference. You fuck it. You skilled it. You skilled it that year. That was great, man You came through It was fantastic TCV 24 is the promo code you get 20% off any ticket whether it's a VIP ticket Please use it to to come in person if you want to use it to buy we will be adding virtual conference tickets at some point I'm waiting only because I really want people to buy in person and come in person You know, Doug you could buy the cheap that cheap General general admission ticket. It's like 90 bucks 80 bucks or something You don't get cheaper than that for a four -day conference and then we even have a local ticket, which is only 25 So if you can't afford anything else buy the local we want you there. Doug We want you there All right, brother, I think this might be a good place to end any any last words and that was it I mean you you've I think you won't drop it. Yeah Rafael I think, I think, I think everyone watching this should really embrace their creativity and maybe within the Monero, different, different, uh, Monero chat groups that you guys have going on to really emphasize on how you guys, how the community in general can break through the noise. Rafael There's a lot of noise. And as this, as this world powered by AI grows, there will be a lot more noise drowning out honest signals and Monero is, is the honest signal that we need more than anything else. Rafael So I implore you guys to, to really, um, play with the idea of how to break through the noise with Monero, whatever that may be, make it fun. And, and let's make sure Monero goes viral because we have a chance here for Monero to go viral. Rafael It's always there guys, like, and it's always been there. We've always had a chance for Monero to go viral. It's only one creative idea away from truly going viral from being top five and in quite market cap. Rafael First off, can you guys, I visualize Monero at top five market cap. Doug Oh, yeah, I've always seen it as a top five coin I mean, that's been much out of my my investment thesis from day one. It'll at least be a top five. Yeah Rafael Definitely it is it is it is five worthy and it's it's just that a reality guys is only one move away and it could be a move that you dream about that you that just you're inspired with but it's a move that that can be as stupid as a game that you play with Monero it could be as stupid as a mean XMR chat it could be something like XMR chat so Doug You know like that's a good point people have to realize too that that that killer app hasn't been invented yet Necessarily and like you know this is a very excited time to be in Monero, right and to Building things in the space you could be the one building that next killer app for sure Rafael maybe maybe like a very simple point of sale system that gives rewards and points and then that can rewards and points that can be I don't know somehow interchangeable with some sort of NFTs or some BS that people like like one thing that I will tell you guys is that the Monero community has a tendency of being very smart but the vast majority of the world is stupid so I invite everyone in Monero to embrace their inner retard like really embrace the stupid within you because your neighbors are stupid the masses are stupid and you're talking to the stupid world now like the Monero users that are amongst the smartest of people at all of crypto are already here you don't have to sell that Monero to the smartest of people anymore the smartest of people are already here so now you have to go to the other side of the bell curve to the dumb side of the bell curve and you need to sell Monero to them sell the package the idea of Monero to them and so you have to at the end what does what does what do the dumb masses the npc's what do they look for they look for dopamine because they're all addicted to dopamine they're a bunch of dopamine zombies and and that's it that's what they want so they want attention they want fun and they want um they want the an asymmetric bet their idea of a world in crypto is is that crypto is not a a 50 50 bet but crypto is is a is a place where if you do the right investing we all win it's a zero to one moment for all of us so there so I invite you guys to be very creative to have a lot of fun to not take yourself so serious because Monero is already incredible so now you have to embrace the masses and you can only do that when you have fun and and just be light -hearted and just embrace it man just just really embrace your inner retard you know so I invite everybody to embrace their inner retard with me and and and just strive to be as dumb as possible because you guys have already taken care of the smart side so from now on in Monero let's let's let's let's hodl Monero and let's be as stupid as possible right so let's let's all be as dumb as possible like we really need to be dumb okay so I challenge you to be dumber than the dumbest person in Monero maybe that guy is me so I challenge you to be dumber than me and like that we can onboard the world into the best cryptocurrency on the planet Doug That might be the most motivational Monero speech I've ever heard, that was it man, you hit it, you hit it right there, I love it. Monero! Rafael Embrace it. Doug It's true. It's true though. It's true though. Monero is like too many steps ahead, right? It's but it's benefiting from that because it's allowing us to build out the ecosystem before Before all the norris show up and try to you know, try to change things Rafael with Tari like the Tari need to build out like a super robust engine that took 10 years to develop in this crypto market. Not really because the crypto is really stupid. So what did Vitalik do Vitalik didn't create something that took forever. Rafael He created something that didn't work. They knew it didn't work. It was funded by JP Morgan. It was crap from the beginning. It was just it was just horrible design. Like just the whole construct of the theorem is shit. Rafael And then they sold it to the world with the promise and it was just marketing stupidity. Just look at the marketing of Ethereum. It's all them dancing like frogs. It's just like they really embrace retardedness and they and look at Ethereum. Rafael So I invite you guys to to now, you know, we've done the work. Monero has proven itself and it's time to be dumb and have fun. Doug Any any prediction on price of Monero for Monero topia? Rafael um by the by the end of this bull run i'm not a technical analyst so i'll just go by feeling yeah because we're dumb now okay so i'm i i don't do technical analysis like i don't do that i i i do from the mental analysis but i but i in the spirit of being dumb i will say this that if we truly embrace our inner retard we can see Monero at ten thousand dollars at the end of this bull run now if we embrace our inner it no if we really do guys that is a secret to success in crypto like the success to success the success to crypto is that we have to embrace our inner retard so how do we do that guys maybe we do a quick rebranding where the monero m is actually a puppy like here's and you have a big commercial where you know ai someone could just do that right now it turns into a beautiful puppy and the puppy's name is monero okay and monero is now a doggy coin okay it's the cutest puppy and and and it's just monero is the whole memetic of monero is just a dog coin Doug Maybe, maybe meow narrow? I just created a new coin, huh? The more we to- Rafael And cute the idea is the better guys like it really is that's what's gonna win Okay, so be dumb and have fun. That's that's how we get to ten thousand dollars. Can we get to twenty thousand dollars? Yes, if we're really dumb and we're really and we have a lot of fun We will get to twenty thousand dollars, you know, so like that is what a true Jedi is in crypto It's not the guy that just it's all about y 'all got it. Rafael I'll figure it out I got it right and everyone else is wrong No, because that guy's missing out on the market that is seeking for what you have So just give them the dump to present money Even this presentation of Monero is very like almost like very Countercultural to the dollar, you know the dollar is boring guys Fiat is boring, but this is very even this mimetic I love Siddhartha the artist that I bought this from with or Monero But even this is very serious, Rafael right? It's this is not really appealing to the masses This is appealing to the the people that are already in one arrow, but this mimetic is it's very serious But if I like she's a cute dog or a stupid frog More people would pay attention to the show like bro. Rafael What a cool frog girl. That's a great PFT guy You know like it doesn't you know, they don't care what you talk about. They don't care that ring signatures They don't care about that. They just Doug I mean, look at your friggin Elon Musk, man. He was literally Dogecoin. Literally because it was a dog. Nothing else. Rafael Honestly, yeah, honestly guys. This is how we need to be we need to operate We need to compete in being as dumb as possible in Monero guys. No more flexing being smart we'll leave that for when we're together chilling and you know smoking a cigar and Monero topia and we can keep some bro down on the kiki shit, but to the world Let's present Monero in as dumb as possible and I know that there's people watching this that are pulling their hair like what do you mean? Rafael Like what do you mean? This is this is the best cryptocurrency. We need to be formal We need to be like, you know, you know, fuck the man We need to just talk about the cool technology and and the peer review process. Rafael Yeah, bro All of that is very important that geeky that geeky intelligence stuff is very important. It's why we're here It's it's why Monero is what it is But we are now moving our attention to bringing on boarding the masses into Monero So we need to be very dumb. Rafael So even XMR bazaar, bro I would I would highly suggest that you make it more playful Maybe the layout make it fun and you know Like take inspiration from the most successful and stupid of platform in crypto Like what what's has been the in the past year has been the most successful crypto platform pumped up fun on Solana Has it not like those guys were waiting? Doug I don't even know. I missed that one. Rafael I'll go to pump that phone right now put it on the screen so people can see Dom like and stupid This is dumb and stupid right pump that one. Okay, I'll pump that phone and look at stupid and dumb Okay, that's what selling guys because those are the people coming into crypto They want Dom and they in there, but it is this one Doug get it because when I see something like this like I don't even you know register it but Rafael You're too smart. Yes. Doug I don't even want it. It's like, you know, it's like it's like a late night. It's like a late night TV ad. Yeah, because you're too smart. Rafael So you have to embrace the retarded within you, Doug, okay? Like, you have to, like, just embrace your inner retard, like, embrace it and love it, man. So, yeah, just whatever. Get through that screen. Rafael Um, look how dumb this is, right? Look at these meme coins, guys. That was stupid. Doug I don't have a little fun. What do you do that? What are you supposed to do? I just click on one Whatever one you like the most whatever. I'll just click anyone. Oh, I was a doge Oh, okay, so that each one has its own like little market Rafael a coin bro and yeah and once it reaches a certain market cap it gets launched into like an exchange called um see I'm not a Solana dude it's a radium I think it's called radio decks Doug I mean, it's literally a casino. It's like a casino! It's stupid, right? Casinos are fun, like, yeah. This, this, yeah, somebody else in the space. This wouldn't be my job. Rafael Dude, anyone can spin up a stupid coin based on a meme and the thing can take off and it's pump that Fun, but it's really pump and dump memes Okay But this is this is what crypto is guys right and you have to understand that these are people that are Younger than us and you have to let me maybe break it down this because you guys are very smart and you guys are probably Begging an explanation like what the fuck is going on here? Rafael What's going on here is that they saw us and they learned from us. These are all 20 year olds That saw Bitcoin come out and and become in opposition to the fiat world and then Monero and it was a very serious like almost antagonistic like dichotomy between this new world of crypto and Fiat and there was like a serious interaction kind of like this meme, right? Rafael There's a serious interaction, right? like a serious world of fiat with your ties and all the BS and then the real serious world of the cypherpunk that's trying to free humanity Okay, the next generation and the people coming into crypto now They have elevated their consciousness to another level which is like they now look at that conflict between Monero and fiat Bitcoin and fiat and They laugh at it. Rafael So what they now they they have a Where's now they're just having fun They've realized that you don't have to be serious that the biggest fuck you to the system is to have fun dog coin So there is a method to their madness. Rafael It's not that here It's not that is they're just stupid if you really think about it If you really think about it, they're as smart as that as smart as us If not smarter because now they're doing a mimetic warfare against yeah Yeah, annual oppression by saying bro. Rafael Why would why would I fucking trade? Dollars when I could trade poop coin and poop coin is not worth more than a dollar ha ha ha poop coin Poop coin maximus, right? So it's like laughing at the concept of money It's uh, you know, I hate the word deconstruction that the leftists use like a deconstructing money But it really is deconstructing that reality of something that is bad a debt -based system making fun of it and then realizing that money is now something that we create and the Interactions that we create can be in any way shape or form that we desire and that they don't have to be serious anymore Yeah, Rafael that was Doug What was what was the the Wall Street the what was the guy's name the one who did the whole meme coin thing that pumped frickin Now that did the meme meme stocks You know amc and what was the kid behind it? Doug Wall Street was at wall street bets. Yeah, I mean they they you know that that in a way obviously was Stupid right a stupid but it's also a genius in a way and how they were disrupting through through a meme Yeah Rafael That's cool. So now we have to this is too serious for this world of crypto. I'm a boomer, bro We're boomers. We have to accept it. We're boomers and and this doesn't this does it Doug already attracted every room that we need we need a you know step step up we need the yeah there's there's plenty of room for people to step up and try to roll if you got one of the narrow medic Rafael automatic on or whatever like I would be in a patriot of art because We need different vibes man in Monero. We really do we need different vibes This serious vibe is in rich. It's it's it's in ceiling. Rafael It doesn't work anymore, bro This is like 1990s five really carried over Doug It's crypto anarchists, it's crypto anarchists, come on man, it's a dark duck, come on. Rafael this is more powerful to make fun and have to make fun and have fun and be playful is actually a way more power there Monero Chan Doug I'm not a fan of Monero Chan. I don't know where you stay on that one. I mean, it's okay. It's okay. Monero Chan is entertaining, but, uh, yeah, that's not, that's not like, you know. Rafael Just have fun actually to be honest those guys could take Monero like you need a crazy place You need you need to go where no one has gone before and just have fun, bro Doug Yeah. Rafael Monero Chan's doing that. Okay, so baby Monero Chan, from now on, I consider Monero Chan the leaders of the Monero community. They will guide us through the promised land of top three coin and market cap because it is possible. Rafael Honestly, Monero's destined to be top one or top two. It really is. It could be top one or top two. So yeah, I hope you guys have fun and really give Monero the facelift that it needs. Some people will say it doesn't need a facelift, it should remain serious and like Doug Yeah, I don't know. Rafael I don't know for you to get it. I don't I don't know it out of here. I just Doug Monero is money, right? It's digital cash as well, you know? Yeah, bro, but that's- It's sex! Rafael It's sexy though. It's coin value. That's top seven in market cap. It makes no sense, right? Okay Doug All the reason I'm saying is people are into the silliness. Rafael stupid dog guys please let's make let's have them let's turn Monero into a dog and just call it and Monero is a dog and watch it how our cat whatever you guys want Doug Your dumb neighbor tipped $1 .23. Yeah, a cool, simple multiplayer game with Monero credits. So yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. That would be fantastic. All right, brother. We'll leave it there. We'll leave it there. Doug So hold Monero, hold Monero, and... Rafael Embrace your inner retard. Brace your inner retard. Bro, this is the most important message for the Monero community. Doug your Venera, hold it, and act like an idiot. Rafael you guys have to act like idiots and we will win that's where the masses are if you want to be if you want to be perceived by the masses to you have to give the masses what it needs and the masses are retarded yeah Doug But then there's something there's something to the seriousness of this is the best utility Or transacting and obviously right is the Swiss Bank this you know the Swiss Bank meme the white out You know that yeah, well sure whatever direction it goes if if something else sells Yeah, you know whatever wherever the people take it wherever the people take it Rafael Because this is the problem that people are encountering right now Doug is that that they're going for the mean they're going for the mean They're going for the fun for the stupidity and then they're realizing that yeah, I mean Doug the way I look the way I always look at that is that just gives us more time to focus on building the infrastructure using it as intended and we're here for when they finally wake up and realize oh okay this is this is the thing that's actually has utility yeah Rafael But this is the thing we can we can enter into like global tyranny and that not ever happen See that's the danger that we're in right now We can enter into a global tyrannical state and still not have hypermonial ization happening That is a reality that could happen like those Doug Those are the things that will trigger it though, right? CBDCs will be a wake -up call for people. Realizing that there's certain things that the government's not allowing you to buy anymore will be a wake -up call for people. Doug Government trying to bring about unrealized capital gains and people will be like, wait a minute, what asset can I hold where the government can't just take a chunk of it away from me just for holding it and go through the list? Doug It's Monero, right? Things like that is what's gonna really wake people up to the utility. Rafael it be cool if we could just tell people from now on that Monero is a cute doggy coin? In my book with you know people that want to mess with Monero like oh it's don't forget it it's a doggy coin like leave it alone you know embrace it on your exchange right so yeah I hope that our conversation leads to something in the community I really do always a pleasure Doug Pleasure man always loves the energy and very very much looking forward to hanging out with you down at Monero topia for a couple of days It's gonna be awesome. Please. Yeah, continue to get the word out to your people And yeah, man looking forward to seeing you and drive it drive it get getting to the next level of adoption with you man as as we as we transition through the phases Hopefully with each each new conference every time we're seeing each other It's in it's in a it's at a new level of the mountain that we're climbing here so far that feels that way Rafael There's got to be, look guys, there's got to be out there a use case for Monero in the area of fun and dopamine addiction. When you find that, whatever it be, be it some sort of social media or some, some BS, when you find that and you exploit that, that we go to the next level, for sure. Doug All right, brother, we will leave it. We will leave it there. I'm going to play the outro and I'll see you in Mexico, man. Rafael All right, take care. Sponsor Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. Go to MoneroTalk .Live to subscribe for a full list and watch endless. Sponsor If you want to end with us, guests, or other podcasts, follow us on Twitter. It helps to find the show and we are always happy. Thanks so much and we look forward to being back.