Latest / World Ablaze with George Fontes / Eric Robinson - Experience in The FBI, Terrorism, Islam, and Epstein Files

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Eric Robinson - Experience in The FBI, Terrorism, Islam, and Epstein Files · World Ablaze with George Fontes

0:00
I think we're just going to go for it, Eric.
0:07
Welcome to World of Blaze, sir.
0:09
And happy to have you here, Eric.
0:12
I'm very interested in talking to you.
0:13
My wife actually wants to really hear this one.
0:16
She was very interested in your background.
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12 years in the Christian ministry.
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And then one day you decided to become an FBI agent.
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and what's awesome is you wrote a book about it and all your tales are in there, but we're
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going to try to get some of that out in this recording here in this session.
0:36
But yeah, we do have questions.
0:37
I have questions and I am very interested in your tale, your story.
0:41
And firstly is how do you, how do you go from being minister or, you know, from being in
0:46
the Christian ministry to deciding to be an FBI agent?
0:50
Yeah, I was, I was pastoring, I was a senior pastor of a Baptist church that I had started.
0:55
We had a pretty good-sized congregation, maybe 200 regular attenders, and we were looking
1:00
to reach out to folks who didn't normally go to church.
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So with that, trying to bring in people who weren't raised in a church, we were trying
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to draw people who had issues in life, maybe didn't feel like they were welcomed in your
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regular church.
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So part of reaching out to folks with problems like that is they brought their problems with
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them.
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And I found myself as I'm ministering, working with people, and they were bringing their life issues that I wasn't able to let go of these things.
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So when someone says, hey, I think my wife's cheating on me, another's like my kid might be an addict, it stuck with me.
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And better men have been able to do a better job of handling that than I was.
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And the result of that was every single day, and I'm not exaggerating, for two years, I had stress-related headaches.
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Because I told my wife one day, I've got to do something different, and I need to find a job with less stress.
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And so I joined the FBI.
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And I applied for two jobs, one I was overqualified for and one I was underqualified for, and I got this one.
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Nice.
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What I was surprised about over the years was how much of a more comforting fit law enforcement was for me.
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Working in ministry, I love that.
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I worked with some great people who sacrificed a lot.
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And I've often said, I've also met some of the people that I hate the most and I spend eternity with too.
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And that's just how it is.
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but the difficulties I had necessitated finding something else. So in April of 2002,
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I preached on Easter Sunday in my church. And the next Sunday I was in Quantico, Virginia.
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And then the Sunday after that, I preached in the chapel in Quantico, Virginia, because
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they didn't have a chaplain. How old were you when you decided to make that switch?
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I was 30, 33, which was about average age. The incoming agents now skew a little bit younger,
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but around 30 is when most folks come in, maybe late 20s. I had a fairly old class. I had one
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fellow who was 44 and the cutoff is 37, but he had been in for nine years, out for eight,
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9-11 happened. He was an Arkansas state representative who spoke Chinese and he wanted
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to serve the country again and got a special dispensation from the attorney general to
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put off his retirement. Interesting. So you feel that what you did was a natural fit and
3:55
kind of, did you feel it was close to being a pastor in any way? I did. It was... How so?
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I felt like the work in law enforcement, obviously there can be corruption and harm that's done.
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But otherwise, if you're carrying out law enforcement the proper way, I feel like you're doing God's work.
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And I felt like I was.
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If you have your home robbed or your child killed or something bad happened to you, the church can offer prayers and maybe raise funds, but you're not receiving justice.
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So this was something worldly that could be brought about that helped people, that they're going to get justice.
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I find it interesting because you go from that, I'm just reading over here from some of your bio.
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You did work a range of crimes, white collar, counterterrorism.
4:51
Interesting, I'd like to see what you have to say about some of that.
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Crimes against children, which is never good.
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Gangs, drugs, and public corruption.
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but I also see you served as a SWAT operator and a firearms instructor as well as tactics
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instructor.
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So it seems like it wasn't a major switch for you to make that move or were you already
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like a gun owner?
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Were you someone who was already inclined to lean that way or you just took it, you know,
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head on once you went into the FBI?
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Like I said, I kind of slid into it.
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So I had fired a gun once before I came in the FBI and that definitely showed.
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so I was skipping rounds off the concrete when we first learned but the instructors there are
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very good so as I progressed through the four months I was shooting fairly well and it wasn't
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until later in my career that I started putting a thought process to shooting and then our primary
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firearms instructor said hey Eric you should try out to be an instructor I thought yeah I'm okay
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but I spent a few months regularly shooting and just that time of being by myself, not under the
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clock, taking shots and thinking through that grip, that squeeze brought about this result.
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That's when I started to advance. And then being on the SWAT team, we would shoot so often that
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that just naturally is going to improve folks. And now you're just, now you're taking fine edges
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off to getting a little bit better, a little bit better. What made you want to join SWAT?
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Who doesn't want to join SWAT? Those are the cool guys, right?
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Right. Once you get into the FBI, the best part of it is bringing about an arrest or a search
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warrant. Now, well, with SWAT, you get to go out and at least do some of that physical end of it.
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The people I served with in the FBI are some of the best people I've met.
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dedicated folks all competent we hire a high class of people you have to be because you have to
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graduate college and have special abilities and you know have a clean record and then the best
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of those people were the ones i served with on swat because these are guys at least where i was
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serving in the cleveland division these are guys who are implicitly willing to die for you and you
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know that you know we don't talk about it you know nobody hugs and cries but you know these
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are dedicated men so the time next to them great group of people um and when we would do tryouts
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for SWAT guys would come and we'd ask why do you want to join SWAT and a lot would say you know I
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want the camaraderie I want the brotherhood and that's the right answer but as they'd leave the
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room, we'd shake their heads and be like, they don't even know. Because it's a special closeness
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when you're sitting with guys at one in the morning, you know, getting ready to hit a house
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and know bad things might happen. Yeah. Interesting. So a lot of people think that most people who
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join SWAT are just action junkies. But, you know, there's always a bit, from what I've heard from
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people, I've never, I mean, I haven't served and I'm not a SWAT guy, but I've always heard that
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there's just, it's a different connection. It's a different level. It's more than just, you know,
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guns ablaze um there's a lot of planning right there's a lot of prep there's a lot of training
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it's not just you know hey grab your gun and go and let's see what we can do so well what i enjoyed
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too is there there are tactics that we train on and then i would provide training to agents
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but learning those tactics and the footwork and the proper movements it's it's it's like
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filling out a crossword puzzle you you hit this room you haven't seen before and it's super
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complicated. I move this way. This guy covers my back. And you kind of smile when you're done.
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Like, dude, we just did that. That was pretty cool. And getting that ability and knowing you're
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at a higher level in a lot of ways that engendered respect from the other agents too, because they
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didn't get as much training as we did. And it feels good to know that you're at the top of your
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game you're trying to be the best you can and most qualified you can be let's talk about your um
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experiences uh in counterterrorism i would like to share what you encountered or whatever you can
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talk about and you know i i know you have a lot of tales in your book i'm sure um and i i do want
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to kind of tie some of your experiences in to what's happening now in the usa i'm i mean i just
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have to it's kind of the show i am but you know we don't have to go too far down a road you don't
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want to. So if you're not interested, you can just say, hey, you know, whatever. I'm not going to try
9:35
to make it too political. But I do have an interest in your thoughts after serving, after working in
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counterterrorism, the things you've seen as I read, crimes against children, etc. So after working
9:47
in counterterrorism, it seems relevant to today. What are your thoughts right now as far as the
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state of America at this moment, given your experience and what you dealt with? And probably
9:58
more to the point we're talking about, you know, how we want to secure borders and et
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cetera.
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And it doesn't matter how you necessarily feel about that politically, but your view
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after the experience you had, what are your thoughts?
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Well, broadly speaking, when I worked criminal investigations for 15 years and one day my
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boss said, hey, you're going to be transferred over to do counterterrorism.
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And I thought, I don't know anything, which is strange because I think the reason I got hired in the FBI is because I had studied Islam.
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And so this was after 9-11.
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They probably said, oh, yeah, this will be great.
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And then they put me in criminal, and I enjoyed that.
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So I entered into doing national security counterterrorism.
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And we had been going through a series of investigations where there hadn't been attacks.
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cases were largely terrorist funding cases where you try to see folks sending money to Hezbollah
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or something like that. And it was difficult. And the cases would language for four years and go
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nowhere. And I had a couple of those and you just couldn't prove anything. And maybe these guys are
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dirtbags. Maybe they're just sending money home. And then while working that, and again, this is
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just the broad stuff. You can focus more if you want. And then as we were looking to
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international terrorism, then there became a rise of domestic terrorism and we started doing
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investigations into that. And now we've been doing the investigations into domestic terrorism for a
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long time. And there's a constant reminder that I would bring up to my supervisors. We need to be
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ready for that curve where we're focused one way and now we're hit again with international
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terrorists.
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So those investigations are all predicated on having good informants who can have the
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eyes.
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I refer to the guys that I worked with as force multipliers.
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They're the ones who are scouring the internet or making connections, talking to people and
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hearing things and then passing on possible violent behavior from others. So it's one thing
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to have rhetoric or someone who has certain ideals, but that has to also be connected to
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some type of violent intent, whether that's destruction of property or it's harming people
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for a cause. Hard to prove though, right? It is. We spent so much time with guys who would say,
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hey, we got to kill these people. And they're saying that online. And we send guys in to see
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how serious they are when they meet face to face. And I've had guys sitting in a group of 12 dudes
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and one guy says hey I work construction I can get a hold of bomb making material and then suddenly folks go Oh yeah let let just keep it to talk Right So guys will talk big
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And then you never know when one day somebody snaps.
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We had a guy in Cleveland who,
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I mean,
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it wasn't egregious,
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but he got 20 years in prison who firebomb,
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firebombed a church trying to destroy it because he was,
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he was part of a domestic terrorist group,
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but he worked totally on his own,
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just got drunk.
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felt like he needed to protect people and so filled one of his bottles with uh fuel and
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scorched the side of a church that was all is uh is there a real threat though to the u.s
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because that's the question a lot of people i mean let's just be honest a lot of keyboard
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warriors and online type people that they glean the internet and they they don't dive deeper than
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the narrative or the headline so from your work is is can you verify that yeah you know there there
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are bad people who want to do harm to the United States or to Americans in general?
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Absolutely.
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That's a true statement.
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Oh, absolutely.
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And we don't know who they are.
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They are likely going to be just homegrown violent extremists.
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So it's going to be a singular person.
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They often don't work together.
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The coordination efforts you see, that happened on 9-11.
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and now we're digging in.
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The efforts that somebody's going to have,
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like all the attacks that you've seen,
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whether from Americans born and raised in America
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or folks who come overseas with a jihadist point of view,
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those are all individuals.
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The Pulse nightclub shooting,
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it's just one person who,
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it's referred to as stochastic terrorism.
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They hear the rhetoric that says
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somebody needs to do something about this. Here's the tools. Somebody take this up.
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And then one person says, that's me. So we had a case a few years ago where we had
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an individual who he started out as a Satanist. That didn't work for him. Then he became a Nazi.
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And then he finally pledged to ISIS because he felt like they were better at killing the Jews.
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we got an informant in on him and that went as far as them scouting a local synagogue and he
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talked openly about how he would carry out this mass shooting he then purchased a gun fortunately
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from our undercover and that's when we took him down but he would he was ready to go he was set to
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you know he said i gotta make sure i get you know the the priest first and then i'll mow people down
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as much as i can so it's just that one individual out there who's going to do it in the name of
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whatever belief he has that's crazy his motivation was because he wanted to kill jews or that was
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just part of his his um belief or whatever was motivating him or he just uses an excuse maybe i
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I don't know.
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It could be.
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I mean, there was a post-arrest interrogation, and the case agent just finally stopped it after preaching for hours about how he hated the Jews.
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And anybody who has that, unless you're coming from some type of religious point of view, anybody who has that has some type of mental health problem, he definitely knew right from wrong.
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That wasn't the issue.
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but they'd never done anything to him.
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He's probably just using it as a way to justify his actions and,
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and,
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you know,
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the fact that he made a decision to follow through,
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right?
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Some people claim certain things that are outlandish,
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but they're not really,
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it's not really who they are.
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Well,
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and so many of these,
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like the mass shooters,
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it's either some type of depression,
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mental health issue,
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or they,
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they need to change their life.
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Like they're so depressed and upset with life that they need to just stop the
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clock and change things completely.
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Well,
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you know what?
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The greatest way to do that is to be a mass murderer because that will
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completely change my life.
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And that's not necessarily the logic,
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but that's how things go.
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Yeah.
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I understand what you're,
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what you're getting at.
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You know,
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they think I can get rid of all the things around me.
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That's creating all this angst and I'll be able to move forward,
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you know,
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fresh start.
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Right.
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Well,
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Life won't be the same.
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Yeah, slash and burn really.
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It's kind of how they're seeing it.
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Yeah, it's not logical.
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It's just I have to do something.
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It's emotional.
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It's emotional.
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That's all it is.
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So I'm going to back you up.
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Obviously, this is probably because you were a pastor and you're interested,
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but what brought you to study Islam?
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Well, my wife and I initially were going to go to Muslim countries to be missionaries,
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and that was our intent.
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And we had a few family issues come through.
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And so rather than going overseas, I took a position in a local church, usual route.
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I was a youth pastor for a while and then an associate pastor until the church where
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I was an associate pastor said, hey, we'd like to plant a new church in the area.
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And I said, I'd love to do that.
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Went through the process and we started a church miles down the road and had a lot of
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fulfillment doing that too.
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Can you expand on that experience a little bit more?
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You know, like the fact of where you were and what you did?
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Yeah, we were in Western New York, in Lakewood, New York, beautiful area.
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And we were starting a church with a few holdovers from the old church.
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And the idea was just for outreach.
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and so I had long hair and uh dressed down and casual and and I went through with the core team
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that I was with I talked to them and said look I'm going to give you a flinch test because we're
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we're not looking for the baptists we used to have we're looking for folks off the street
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you know not necessarily homeless but folks who just they're staying home on Sunday otherwise
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and so I gave them a flinch test how do you feel if somebody walks in they're wearing a
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um, Def Leppard or a concert t-shirt? Like they're not dressed for church. Right. You know,
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what about piercings? What about a gay couple? What if you smell alcohol in their breath? Like,
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do you feel like you can handle this? Because these are the people that we're looking to bring.
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And, uh, folks said, yep, absolutely. Let's do it.
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Well, yeah, my dad's been a minister or ordained minister for many, many years himself. And, um,
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he has that same viewpoint, you know, you do, he's just, you know, come all right. Open arms,
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anybody who's showing up is really inside looking for a change.
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So they're trying to make the best step.
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They're just not sure, but they need that person to guide them,
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which is exactly what a pastor does.
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Can I ask you this, though?
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And this isn't to be divisive or anything.
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And I have a genuine interest because I have studied a lot
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about the Middle East and the history when it comes to Islam and whatnot.
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So the question being, in your findings,
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what did you find if we're comparing and contrasting Islam to Christianity?
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Because as of now, I am currently reading the Quran.
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I'm trying to understand it more and dive deeper.
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I have my own opinions, but I just want to see your point of view from being a pastor.
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And what do you think?
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Well, there's differences between the religion, obviously.
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And then there's a lot that's same among the people.
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So I'll try to tie these together.
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A number of my informants that I had working national security, counterterrorism, were Muslims.
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and they were dedicated to America.
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And these were some of the nicest guys.
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And people can talk the rhetoric of Muslims just want to kill
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because that's part of their religion.
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And there's certainly people out there who belong to Muslim faith
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who may believe that.
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But by and large, the good Muslim people I met
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were like the good Christians I met.
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And they had many of the same habits and kindnesses and desire to help people.
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They held those similar.
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Now, as far as the religions go, I used to do jujitsu back in the day when I was working in Chicago.
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And my instructor was a Muslim.
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And he knew what I did.
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And he brought me in and he asked me.
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He gave me some brochures to read.
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And I'm always willing to learn.
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and I'd like to know more.
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So I read them and he said later,
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he said, so what do you think about them?
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I'm like, yeah, man, you're not convincing me
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that the proofs and the arguments are,
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I don't believe in Islam.
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I don't believe it's a, I don't believe it.
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I respect people who do follow it.
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I have opinions on how that can help them in their lives.
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So sometimes I'd sit down with my one informant and he would start asking me questions about the Bible.
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And, you know, we'd quiz each other back and forth.
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And I really enjoyed engaging that way.
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Gotcha.
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So the reason I bring that up is I have the belief that I can't believe that, you know, everybody has a view all Muslims bad.
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And they're just people, you know, people.
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The reality is we're all born into what we're born into.
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We don't choose.
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where we're born, what we're born into.
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And I've interviewed a few prominent people that can represent Iran,
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journalists and an activist as well.
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And their view is the same.
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They think that these extremists out there,
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they don't really truly believe in Islam.
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They're just using it as a way to fuel the flame
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and just spread the ideology
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and the way that they're trying to represent it to capture people and followers to be able to do the dirty work for them,
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but not really true believers in the faith itself.
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And that's the sad part about it is it's so easily used as a doctrine of subjugation and conquered when it's really not everybody's view.
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It would be like if you and I took the literal, literal writings of the Bible and just went out and started stoning people.
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I mean, we're not supposed to do that, especially after the New Testament, right?
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But at the same time, we unfortunately have those people who enforce their view of Islam that way.
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Like, nope, it's the literal, literal teachings and there's no modern adaption and we're going to go and conquer and kill.
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But I know that's not everybody.
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So that's why I ask these questions because you have this experience interacting with these people.
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Oh, yeah.
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And anyone with bad intent will use whatever means they need.
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just as the one convert to ISIS that I mentioned,
24:06
like he's just looking for a reason to justify his anger.
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Yeah.
24:12
So here we go.
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This is best.
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I can use it with Christianity.
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I can use it with whatever I want.
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Yeah, agreed.
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And we're going to get off these two topics in a bit,
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but I wanted to circle back into counterterrorism.
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And the reason I was really interested
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in what your thoughts were with the threads,
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because looking at the CBP website,
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and I track these things.
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I've done quite a few shows on seeing what's coming in,
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going out over the borders.
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And I don't know if this is current.
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I didn't look it up recently,
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but not that long ago, a few months ago,
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they've actually encountered,
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you know that encounters versus gotaways
24:46
are two different things, right?
24:47
They don't know who gets away,
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but the people they encountered,
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there was enough terrorists encountered at our borders
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to put 15 terrorists in every state of the USA.
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15.
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That's crazy.
25:00
You know, that's actually a literal small terrorist cell.
25:03
That's crazy to think that.
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And those are people that they encountered.
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And, you know, so they stopped those people.
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And so a lot of people are, they try to say, well, the borders, whatever.
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These things aren't happening.
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It's just people hating on foreigners or immigrants.
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And I think it's important to realize that, yeah, there are threats against the U.S.
25:24
and that we do have to protect our borders.
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I don't know if you have anything else to add on that
25:29
but I just wanted to bring that little data set up
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I'm sure you probably already knew that
25:34
there will always be people
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trying to get in
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and all that you can hope for
25:41
again, most of the recent attacks
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have been folks who have been here
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lived a life
25:48
but then get further radicalized
25:51
I was working with a buddy
25:52
in another division
25:54
And he has had a case on a guy who just So one thing he knows is this young man is into child pornography
26:08
And we both came to the same conclusion that the one way that he can just expiate all his sins is through a mass killing.
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But this is an individual who was born here.
26:23
Interesting.
26:24
So the threats will come from wherever.
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It's just who's going to be the person who says,
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I need to do this to purify myself.
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So in this person's mind,
26:38
he would be absolved of his sins by this,
26:40
carrying out this mass killing.
26:41
Did I hear that correctly?
26:43
Or did I?
26:44
Yeah.
26:44
So if you remember the,
26:46
I think it was over Christmas,
26:48
the Nice France attacks where there was an individual who drove a truck
26:53
through crowds.
26:53
Oh, yes.
26:54
And his ex-wife said, he was Muslim.
26:59
He said, this guy eats bacon.
27:01
Well, yeah, he had lived a life where he had been an apostate Muslim.
27:06
He had fallen away.
27:07
And the one way he could pay penance for all his sins would be to carry out a jihadist attack.
27:14
And we're both concerned that this kid is somebody who would say, I'm so terrible.
27:20
the only thing I can do for Allah that's good enough would be to kill people.
27:26
Yeah.
27:29
Yeah, that's sad.
27:33
Well, let's try to lighten this up.
27:36
That was all my fault.
27:38
I asked those questions.
27:41
Let's talk more about your book.
27:42
Let's get into the crimes against children.
27:44
Well, yeah, right.
27:45
Let's go there.
27:45
That's next.
27:46
No, well, listen, you did write your book, and from what I read, it's written in a humorous type of way.
27:54
So obviously, you were able to reflect back on some things.
27:57
You were able to try to learn and make light of some situations.
28:01
I mean, I'm sure you went through a lot of horrible things doing what you did, but maybe we can lighten the mood a bit here moving forward.
28:09
Yeah, yeah.
28:11
I'll tell you a story.
28:12
I was working with some IRS agents.
28:16
And so I work out of the Cleveland division.
28:18
I did in the Toledo office.
28:21
So it's a satellite office.
28:22
We have the upper half of the state of Ohio.
28:24
And one of the IRS agents came to me and said, hey, we got this case.
28:29
And the case was, it's fascinating, but I'll have to go through it real quick.
28:33
There was a blue collar guy who owned a duplex.
28:36
he let it out to his tenants that he had been saving a lot of money. He had $2 million saved.
28:45
He died by falling downstairs. Granted, he used to drink a lot too. So they were investigated.
28:52
The tenants were let off the hook. And then out came a will that said, all my money goes to my
28:59
tenants. So in this, there was a couple and the dad, and the dad was upset that he wasn't getting
29:07
enough cut. And so he turned them into the IRS and they had had an attorney on hand too, to forge
29:14
the will. But they went through all of this. They all got convicted. And I don't know why the dad
29:21
went to the IRS. That looks like an FBI case all day. But anyway, they did a great job, got the
29:25
case together, but they're getting ready for trial. And they said, hey, we need to go back
29:30
and get a search warrant because we didn't pick up the man's ashes. And part of the defense is
29:35
going to be, hey, we loved him. He loved us. But when we went through, the man's ashes were
29:42
literally sitting in a takeout box on the mantle. And we need to get that as evidence. And we don't
29:48
want to embarrass ourselves. So would you, like IRS agents said, I'll write it, but I want you
29:54
to be the affiant and swear it out. I said, no problem. So we went back and had a couple of our
29:59
evidence response folks with us too. And we searched the place and it was waterlogged.
30:05
There was a drip in the ceiling, but I knew that our federal prosecutors were going to check on it
30:10
because this was an important case. So knowing that they would come out, I took an Amazon box
30:17
and I went to my fireplace
30:19
and I filled it with ashes.
30:22
And right when they pulled up,
30:24
I walked out and I cut a hole
30:25
in the bottom corner of the box
30:27
and I held it up and I said,
30:29
guys, I found it while ashes were pouring out
30:32
and the prosecutors just turned white.
30:35
And that got me in trouble,
30:36
but I didn't care.
30:40
Whatever.
30:43
So,
30:44
sorry about that.
30:46
I need a sip.
30:47
It's been a long day, so I need the coffee.
30:50
The thing about everything that you've been through,
30:55
and thanks for lightening that up a bit.
30:57
Let me ask you this, though.
30:59
Sure.
31:00
Do you still consider yourself a pastor,
31:02
or are you completely done?
31:05
No.
31:06
No.
31:06
I enjoyed giving the sermons.
31:09
I enjoyed working with people.
31:11
But once I got out, I'm out.
31:14
Although now I would have plenty of sermon illustrations,
31:16
to give.
31:17
Right.
31:18
Plus, if I carried a gun,
31:19
I think offerings
31:20
would go up too.
31:21
Of course they would.
31:24
Of course.
31:25
Let's pass that around
31:26
one more time.
31:27
Exactly.
31:28
What is your feeling
31:29
about what seems
31:32
to be a move
31:32
or, well,
31:34
it seems to be
31:34
a movement lately
31:35
of returning
31:36
to the Judeo-Christian values
31:39
that many people say
31:42
America was based on?
31:44
What is your perspective
31:44
as an ex-pastor,
31:45
someone who's devout
31:46
Christian what do you think of that or do you think it's just all theater
31:49
my feeling has always been like I'm willing to share my beliefs I've also I've also realized
32:00
that before I give you my opinion I'd like to ask if I could have permission so
32:07
the idea of telling people how to live is going to be inauthentic I mean I knew that when I was
32:16
I was evangelizing and talking to people.
32:19
I can tell you, you come to my church,
32:22
you're gonna hear what I have to say,
32:24
but that decision that you're making,
32:26
it cannot be coerced.
32:29
You can't be argued into it.
32:30
I can't threaten you with it.
32:33
My favorite parable from the New Testament
32:36
is when Jesus told about the treasure in a field.
32:41
And he says, the kingdom of God is like a man
32:43
who finds a valuable treasure in a field.
32:46
so he sells all that he has so that he can buy the field.
32:50
And that's what people have to come to.
32:52
You have to say, oh, this way of living, this life,
32:58
this having a different purpose,
33:00
that's worth so much more than what I had.
33:04
I'm going to willingly leave that so that I can follow this
33:10
because I think this is much better.
33:13
So it has to be, if we invoke, this is what Christian law should be.
33:18
This is a lifestyle you should live.
33:20
It's just performative.
33:22
It's not people doing what they want to.
33:26
And I don't know that it should be imposed on somebody.
33:30
If you say, hey, look at my life.
33:32
I have things together.
33:34
I'm happy.
33:35
I'm pleased with my beliefs.
33:36
And someone goes, I like that.
33:39
Tell me more.
33:40
Then that's authentic.
33:42
Okay, so what about the concern out there lately of America losing who they are, though?
33:50
Let's say, for example, and again, just using it as an example because a lot of people think this,
33:55
that America becomes all of a sudden 80-90% Islam or let's say another religion,
34:01
let's say 90% Hindu or Shinto or whatever it is.
34:05
A lot of people think that we are kind of heading that way
34:09
and getting away from what is believed to be the founding of what America is.
34:14
And a lot of people do feel that, look, I totally understand where you're coming from.
34:18
I mean, I can say the same thing about Christians, Catholics, it doesn't matter.
34:21
Everybody sins Monday through Friday and they pray on Sunday and they want to be forgiven.
34:25
I get it.
34:25
But at the same time, a lot of people believe that, you know,
34:29
that is part of the core of who we are as the USA, for example.
34:34
So do you have any concern about that shift?
34:36
like one day you wake up and again,
34:39
just cause we talked about it,
34:40
there's 500 mosques in your city or whatever,
34:42
or it could be a bunch of Hindu temples or whatever,
34:45
you know,
34:45
we can throw any religion in there.
34:48
Is there any concern on your,
34:50
on your part of,
34:51
of that America becoming something else?
34:55
My only concern is it,
34:58
is that it might be uncomfortable for me.
35:02
You know,
35:03
if I go to like,
35:04
I've been to plenty black churches and it's not what I,
35:09
it's not how I worship.
35:11
And so I feel uncomfortable.
35:12
And plus now I'm in the minority.
35:15
Yeah.
35:15
Those things naturally feel uncomfortable to many people and I'm one of
35:18
them.
35:19
And so if America became a largely Muslim country,
35:26
that would feel uncomfortable to me because I'm not familiar with it.
35:31
but I like the freedoms.
35:38
And if we are a largely different religion in the country,
35:42
I just want the values to be ones that show respect for people and show kindness for folks.
35:49
And again, I know you're saying any religion.
35:51
I would hope that whether we are a largely Christian nation,
35:56
that those who lead and make laws and interact with each other embrace the values in Christianity
36:05
that say, love your neighbor, love God, show kindness to others, take care of others.
36:14
So I would hope that those similar factors that might be in Islam or other religions
36:19
would be the kinds that come out too.
36:22
I can understand the concern of a change because nobody likes change.
36:26
And it's, you don't know me, but if you knew me, you would know I hate change.
36:35
I don't, like, I get the same thing at Chipotle every time because that tastes good.
36:39
And so we're all creatures of habit.
36:41
I don't want to chance something different.
36:42
Absolutely.
36:44
And so that, I think that's, that's part of the fear.
36:47
I am, I live in a rut and I don't like doing things that are different and uncomfortable.
36:51
And so, yeah, that would make me feel bad, but I would also have hope for whatever people have in them that's goodness. I mean, we can become a Christian nation, even more Christian nation, but the way you interpret the Bible is one that harms me or my family.
37:11
And like we talked about, anybody can use any platform to do harm if they've got a twisted heart.
37:18
So I would just hope for the goodness to come out in people as far as some new change in our country.
37:27
So respect that answer, but let me press that a bit because, again, my father was a minister,
37:35
and I couldn't even tell you how many times I read the Bible back and forth,
37:38
and I probably don't even remember most of it anymore, to be honest.
37:41
But I'll just say this.
37:43
So let's just take from the standpoint of being a Christian.
37:47
I'm going to completely say this.
37:49
We know America has turned its back.
37:51
We know.
37:52
Nobody really takes Christianity seriously.
37:54
It's almost like tradition.
37:56
The majority, by the way, not saying you or anybody, but the majority of people, it just becomes a habit.
38:01
It's like we go to church on Sunday.
38:02
We dress our best.
38:03
We do this.
38:03
We have our little community, and then they forget about it once they walk out the door.
38:07
with that being said though
38:10
for someone who is a
38:11
for someone who would be a devout Christian
38:15
sorry fumbling my words here
38:16
someone who would be a devout Christian
38:19
I'd have to ask that
38:21
if there is one God
38:23
and no one
38:24
no one comes to the Father
38:26
you know except through me
38:28
obviously Jesus Christ
38:29
like if that is the only thing
38:31
that is supposed to be true
38:32
then would it be acceptable
38:35
if America was truly a Christian nation
38:38
to turn to another religion or another God.
38:46
I espouse what you're saying,
38:48
that there is one,
38:50
I do believe there is one true religion
38:54
and it Christianity I even seen this in a micro level though too that the reason we should never have
39:06
for instance, a theocracy.
39:08
So you guys vote me in because I know God
39:11
and I know what he wants.
39:14
We see this in churches
39:16
where the pastor has the word of God
39:19
and he speaks for God,
39:21
but the pastor is a sinner.
39:22
and now his abuses are being covered up
39:27
because what we have to respect
39:28
the man of God who's a leader.
39:30
So even in Christianity,
39:32
that's the correct religion.
39:35
Let's use that as the default idea.
39:38
I do not trust you, me, or anyone
39:41
to be the proper arbiter of what God wants for us.
39:45
We can look at the same Bible.
39:48
If you've done any study yourself,
39:50
you've read this respected theologian saying,
39:53
this is what the Bible says.
39:55
And this respected theologian saying, he's wrong.
40:01
I would fear place, when it's what God says,
40:08
that's where real damage can be done
40:11
because you can't question that.
40:13
So I fall back to,
40:16
let's have people live an authentic life.
40:22
You do your best because you follow God
40:25
and you think this is what it says.
40:27
And as long as that's showing kindness to others,
40:29
fantastic.
40:30
And I hope others will do the same
40:34
for whatever they're following,
40:35
even if they're agnostic, atheist,
40:37
or follow anything else.
40:40
Gotcha.
40:41
Well, and what you said is correct.
40:42
I mean, a lot of people don't realize
40:44
when you step back,
40:44
We have so many different denominations and sects and whatnot of Christianity in and of itself.
40:50
Everybody interprets it different, right?
40:52
Where everybody focuses on one thing in the Bible versus looking at it from a macro view.
40:59
Some people are very Old Testament, some are New Testament.
41:01
But I think in the end, though, the focus is on Jesus or God himself, Father Almighty.
41:08
Not to make this a theological discussion, but I just wanted to appear on that being someone who was a pastor.
41:13
so you know that's you know not trying to put you on the spot i just i just wanted to get your
41:18
your insight on that um so absolutely back to fbi yeah what what else can you tell us that you've
41:28
encountered that uh we should know as americans like what is not being told to us and for example
41:34
um i don't know how much you know about what dan bondino went through or etc but it seems like you
41:42
People like that, they get on the other side and it's almost like he went in like, oh, dang, this is something different or there's something else going on.
41:50
And then he steps out, goes back to his podcast.
41:52
And I don't know how you feel about him.
41:54
It doesn't really matter.
41:55
Just use him as an example because a lot of people know that story.
41:58
Is there anything you can say, like being on the other side, that people should know about?
42:03
I know you probably can't give too much away, but what can you tell people about what's happening?
42:09
Yeah, I can tell you two things. One is there's two FBI's and this was before Bongino. There has always been two FBI's and that's DC and then the field. So the things that make the news are the things that people debate about that it's not my buddies. It's not people that I know.
42:34
line FBI agents and the support staff, the intel analysts, they're just out there trying to work
42:41
a case on people they think are bad guys who stole money or harming kids, whatever it might be.
42:47
They don't care. They don't want any of that influence. They don't want DC to get involved
42:52
in their cases. And that's the worst thing that could happen in your life. So that's one thing
42:59
that whether you have or don't have confidence in what's in the headlines, you can have confidence
43:06
in the great majority of individual agents because they just want to do what is proper and right.
43:13
And the second thing is, I'd gone back to the church that I had planted early on in my career.
43:21
I'd been working drugs in Chicago for a while, and we were on numerous wiretaps. Month after month,
43:28
just tapping phones, which is fascinating in itself. And I had a fellow who was always very
43:33
paranoid ask me, he's like, so what can you tell me about phone tapping? Like,
43:38
are they tapping my phone? And so this is something that people should know.
43:42
The amount of effort that it takes to get the authority to tap a person's phone,
43:47
you have to exhaust because that's the most intrusive act that you could do
43:51
next to arresting someone is tapping their phone. So the level that you have to reach
43:56
is extraordinarily high.
43:59
And then on top of that,
44:00
the manpower and the hours it takes
44:02
just to man,
44:04
me tapping your phone,
44:05
I need a whole squad of people,
44:07
surveillance regularly,
44:09
manning it around the clock,
44:10
that if you're not this level bad guy,
44:14
I'm not going through the efforts.
44:16
So I can't speak to other agencies
44:17
listening to your calls,
44:19
but yeah, you got to be a pretty bad guy
44:21
to get your phone tapped.
44:23
Oh, man.
44:25
Okay, so, and I know they're listening
44:26
to me but anyway the uh the thing is um from your experience though like we're gonna i'm not saying
44:34
you know anything about this but people keep using the epstein case as an example of two fbis
44:40
or what seems to be um i've always asked a question and let me know if we are just off in
44:47
america we just don't know what we're talking about but i always wondered like why would the
44:51
FBI spent so much money and resources
44:53
in an over two decades
44:55
investigation if there was never anything
44:56
there.
45:00
That's the DC.
45:02
So
45:03
whatever
45:06
division had it down in
45:08
Florida, you would have had
45:11
agents working it up. I've
45:13
been there myself. So let me just give you the example
45:15
where I had a case
45:17
where
45:17
the
45:20
ex-wife of the president of a company installed cameras into the company and then people felt
45:28
violated. Well, that's a wiretap violation. So you can't plan a camera, video and audio.
45:36
That's called a Title III violation. So I worked the case up. The prosecutor said,
45:42
well, I would only charge this if this was some type of corporate espionage. So I said,
45:50
okay, I went back, did interviews and found, yes, the ex-wife was looking to gain information
45:56
from those cameras to start a competitive business with another group, brought that to them.
46:04
And prosecutors still said, no, we're not going to charge it, even though this would have been
46:09
slam dunk case. And that's what happens many times. So you've got well-meaning agents who
46:17
were trying to protect children in the Epstein case, you know, they had him dead to rights.
46:22
Yeah.
46:23
And then here are prosecutors, politicians stepping in saying, let's, you know, let's,
46:28
let's hold off on this.
46:30
Can you, this is your opinion.
46:33
I know it's your opinion, but in your opinion, based on experience, like why, what would be
46:38
the reason behind politicians wanting to stave, stave off something as heinous as that, for
46:46
example?
46:47
yeah there's my opinion and then there's my wild assumptions yeah i'll just i'll say this
46:55
i i texted my buddy this morning who has worked uh foreign counterintelligence and i asked him
47:02
if you were an agent if you worked for a foreign government and you had compromised a known pervert
47:12
who ran sex parties with underage girls,
47:16
would you have that asset work any differently
47:19
than Jeffrey Epstein did
47:21
with his connections to so many important people?
47:26
So I'm not a pervert, take my word,
47:29
but I mean, this guy is inviting people
47:32
to underage sex parties
47:34
and they're important people.
47:39
Why would you do that?
47:40
I mean, the majority, because I've worked many pedophile cases, they all do it in secret.
47:48
They don't do it in clubs.
47:49
They don't do it at parties, except for this guy.
47:53
So I can't, if you were going to be a government asset, I don't see you acting any differently than Epstein.
48:02
Government asset for you though, right?
48:04
But it's like, because if you also, I think, and again, I know these are opinions.
48:11
I'm not asking you to say this is definitive.
48:14
But the deal is, it seems like other countries have taken action with certain individuals
48:19
in the case.
48:20
And the U.S. still hasn't seemed to have done anything.
48:22
I mean, we got former Prince Andrew, who's under the gun at this moment, stripped of
48:27
his titles and everything.
48:28
And then it also led to him being found out to be selling secrets to the Russians.
48:34
as well as Epstein,
48:36
you know,
48:37
which is crazy.
48:38
Yeah.
48:38
And then same thing in Qatar that happened.
48:40
They got rid of,
48:41
I forgot who it was,
48:42
but there was somebody else that was high up that when they found out he was
48:45
in the files right away,
48:46
they kicked,
48:47
they ousted him.
48:48
And so it seems like the U S is only country that doesn't seem to want to
48:52
take action.
48:53
And it's almost makes you wonder like,
48:55
well,
48:55
was he working for the United States or like,
48:58
they just don't want to reveal,
49:00
you know,
49:01
the,
49:01
the big names,
49:02
the people high up that were actually literally involved.
49:07
Yeah, all I can say is I am as frustrated and aggravated as you.
49:12
And people just don't want to bring justice.
49:18
It's maybe enough people will speak up.
49:21
Maybe enough pressure will come.
49:23
I don't know.
49:24
Well, what do you say to those who keep saying,
49:28
you know, there's no arrest because this takes time.
49:32
we've had over 20 years.
49:35
What do you say to that?
49:36
Yeah, I've had long-running cases.
49:41
The longest case I had was a financial case that went on forever.
49:46
And I had so many victims say,
49:48
Eric, this is never going to go to trial.
49:50
And I would have to tell them, it will.
49:53
You have to believe me.
49:55
This has just taken too long.
49:58
And we got a conviction.
50:00
It was true.
50:01
but this is,
50:02
this is different.
50:03
This isn't,
50:04
these are people,
50:07
people are actively slowing this down.
50:10
Gotcha.
50:12
Yeah.
50:12
I was just thinking because it's not exactly the same,
50:15
but they definitely went out of their way to convict Diddy a lot quicker than
50:18
they did Epstein,
50:19
you know,
50:20
and they had a much longer investigation.
50:24
Yeah.
50:25
That was crazy.
50:26
That was DHS,
50:26
I believe.
50:27
And that went slam dunk.
50:29
Right.
50:29
So,
50:30
you know,
50:30
I was thinking of that the other day.
50:32
Literally, it's like, hold on.
50:33
Over 20 years, and this seemed like a matter of less than a year or so,
50:37
all of a sudden just escalated.
50:38
It's like, okay, we got the guy.
50:39
But when we're talking Epstein, it's like, well, there's nothing there.
50:42
He didn't kill himself, whatever.
50:44
All these conspiracies start to come up to the surface.
50:48
And I don't know how many, sometimes they are true.
50:51
But it's very interesting.
50:53
Did he hit TMZ one day and the next day he's arrested?
50:57
Yeah, all of a sudden.
50:57
All of a sudden.
50:58
It's crazy.
50:59
Well, there's nothing you and I can do about that, but I did want your insight based on
51:03
being an actual FBI agent and having to deal with those similar types of cases.
51:08
So let's talk again.
51:11
Let's go back into your book.
51:13
What else can we look forward to in your book that maybe, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot
51:16
you didn't touch on in this conversation.
51:18
We only have so much time, but what else can people look forward to?
51:22
Well, so what I did is I went through a little background of how I moved from being a pastor
51:28
into the FBI.
51:29
And then through each chapter,
51:32
I try to tie that in together of,
51:34
this is how the man I was there
51:36
played out in some of these investigations.
51:40
So each chapter I read about an investigation
51:42
I had or was part of.
51:45
Many of them are very, I think, interesting.
51:48
A couple of them won Attorney General's awards.
51:50
So they were prominent ones.
51:52
We had arrests of a number of terrorists,
51:55
mass shooters.
51:56
And in the telling of the story,
51:59
which gives people a little insight on this is how a case runs.
52:03
This is how people are scrambling to get things done last minute sometimes.
52:08
And then what I put in following each chapter is an after action report,
52:14
which is common to military and law enforcement.
52:18
Let's sit down and talk about what do we do right here?
52:21
What do we need to keep?
52:22
What did we learn?
52:24
What should we do differently?
52:26
And so for each investigation, I have,
52:28
hey, this is how we caught this pimp who was trafficking a 15-year-old girl.
52:33
This is the crazy story about how we finally arrested him right before Easter.
52:39
And then here's some lessons learned, maybe a couple of vignettes of similar arrests of pimps.
52:46
This is how this happened and what we did successfully.
52:51
This is how we screwed up.
52:52
this is why I was able to get a confession from this other pimp's girlfriend along the way and
52:59
why it worked. So I think for me, I know that as FBI agents, if we're sitting around after an op
53:08
and things have cleared out or waiting for a dope dealer to show up and they're always late and slow,
53:13
guys just start telling stories And I never lost the awe of being in the FBI where we tell these stories and everybody chuckles and goes yeah I remember that one
53:26
And then I think that story is actually pretty amazing about how this kid jumped out of a
53:33
second story window and then his younger brother jumped after him, even though he didn't have
53:36
a warrant, he broke his back, you know, and then we arrested him.
53:40
but the number of things that you get out there and experience and,
53:45
and seeing parts of society that people walk past,
53:49
but don't know what's going on behind the scenes.
53:53
I think that's a remarkable insight.
53:56
And I think I tell a good story.
53:58
That's funny too,
53:59
along the way.
54:01
I'm sure you do.
54:02
Well,
54:02
I look forward to it.
54:03
I'm going to have to read it.
54:05
I'm intrigued.
54:06
I'm intrigued.
54:07
Let's let's do this,
54:09
uh,
54:09
Eric,
54:09
I,
54:10
I want to,
54:11
I want to know this.
54:13
When is it actually coming out?
54:15
That's the question.
54:15
Cause I thought you were still working on it.
54:17
Has it,
54:18
has it been finished?
54:18
Is it finalized?
54:20
Well,
54:20
two things.
54:21
One is,
54:21
uh,
54:22
the FBI has to review it and make sure I didn't put any classified stuff in
54:26
there,
54:26
which I knew they would.
54:28
So I didn't.
54:29
Um,
54:30
and,
54:30
and then my wife owns a company that markets and publishes books.
54:36
And she's the one who said,
54:37
Oh,
54:37
you should write a book And I said yeah But I didn write things down and I forget stuff And I just one day sat down and all the stories came back like I was sitting in the back of an armored bearcat
54:48
So we'll go through that process. She tells me it'll be in the fall because a couple other authors
54:55
have jumped the headline for me, but we'll have it coming out in the fall. The working title I
55:01
have right now is irreverent because I was irreverent and much of the things we did were
55:07
irreverent. The initial title we had was preacher to breacher and I still kind of like that one too.
55:15
That is a good one. Okay, so where can we get updates outside of, I believe you have
55:20
Instagram, of course. Do you have any other social media out there?
55:24
Just LinkedIn and then we've got to set my website. When that goes live, I can
55:30
I'll promote this podcast
55:33
and we'll link to that too.
55:35
And if you guys have any great ideas
55:37
for what a good website URL would be,
55:39
I'm open to that.
55:41
Sure. We're going to make sure people
55:42
are pointed to your Instagram to stay up to date on all of this.
55:46
I literally do want to keep in touch with you though.
55:49
I think that if you're willing,
55:51
no, if you're willing, I'd like to have you back on
55:53
to get your assessment on things in real time
55:57
as they happen, as in terms of what's going on
55:59
in the world because you have that background experience So I think that your insight would be valuable and people do want to hear it I mean I like this Honestly I love this conversation
56:09
This was great.
56:11
And I do want to have you back.
56:12
So let's do,
56:13
please stay in touch.
56:14
And by all means,
56:15
you know,
56:16
when your book is out,
56:17
just let me know.
56:18
And maybe we can have a discussion about that as well to get,
56:21
to get that out there.
56:22
But this was a,
56:24
this was a good conversation.
56:25
I hope that you enjoy the conversation.
56:27
I know I asked a few things that may not have been in line with what you
56:31
wanted, but you know, I, I figured I'd take advantage of your experience,
56:35
you know, and I get some answers.
56:37
George, I'm retired. What else I'm going to do?
56:40
Fair enough. All right, Eric, we're going to sign off for now.
56:44
Um, and you and I, again,
56:46
we're going to stay in touch and I appreciate your time. I really do.
56:49
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
56:51
Thank you.
56:53
Devils hide behind redemption.
56:55
Honesty is a one-way gate to hell
56:59
Shh
57:05
Shh